which you say he hath after used of such splashy Reply shallow watry thin and barren argumentation either pro or con than the writing of seven such booâ—s as this is which we now implead You speak much of your findings but if you have found any such place in all his writings namely where he hath denyed that true proper and natural consequences from granted premises in the Scripture are not to be admitted as the truths of God I believe you may rejoyce in it and eat the morsells thereof your self alone having no partner with you therein in any part of the world whereof the Sun in the firmament is Overseer But this is onely to give Mr. Goodwin a running-rap but you could not reach him You procee 8. Mr. Lamb. I found the unregenerate world naturally falling in with childrens baptism which is a shrewd sign is a deâ—ice of her own the world loveth her own c. SECT XLVIII YOU finde the unregenerate world no more naturally falling in with childrens baptism Reply then you found it naturally falling in with the profession of Christ For they are baptized and do baptize their children in no other name nor into the profession of any other Saviour then Jesus Christ And is not this a shrewd argument that this Doctrine of the Messiah the unregenerate world so naturally falleth in withall is a device of her own the world doth love her own Your 9th particular is summ'd up in this Mr. Lamb. infant-Baptism is unlawfull because baptism being the initiating Ordinance into the Church it letteth in a sort of Members which the New-Testament knoweth not namely such as cannot worship God inspirit God now seeking onely such to worship him The whole bedy must be fitly framed together and every part must effectually work And can these things be affirmed of children SECT XLIX First you affirm that baptism is the innitiating Ordinance into the Church I suppose you mean not the Church generall but dejure it is the initrating Ordinance into particular Churches If that be your meaning Baptism not proved to be the initiating Ordinance into Church-fellowship this then is such a conclusion as you can hardly make good no not by any ifs may-bee's and why-nots gatherable from any place or places in the Holy Scriptures that is to say that baptism did make any person ipsosacto a member of any particular Church But it is proveable that many and many were baptized of whom it is impossible to prove that by baptism or any other way they were ever immembred into any particular Church And it is a difficulty too hard for you or I or any other in the world to undertake namely to prove that all and every particular member of particular Churches were ever baptized at all 2. It is true Gad seeketh such and onely such now to worship him as can worship him in spirit and in truth Iohn 4.23 that is as I conceive according to the context Now the time of reformation approacheth God will be worshipped and obeyed neither in the Iudaicall rites consisting in external performances as some among you so much contend for nor according to the Samaritans false worship who worshipped their Idol Gods together with God 2 King 17.26 27 28 29. but in a pure spirituall manner extending to the very heart such as was typified by those shaddows and the Son of God comes now to draw all men unto this way of worship from the Iudaicall from the Samaritan way This text indeed with severall others renders men uncapable of Church-worship in an acceptable manner that content themselves only with outward forms and yet leading a vitious life But what is this to the exclusion of children As for them here is the grace of the Gospell that he accepteth of little children and would not have men forbidden as you do to bring them to Christ He accepteth according to what any person hath and not according to what he hath not 3. Again God was alwayes a spirit as well as now and he did alwayes seek for such to worship him as should worship him in spirit and in truth as well as now He alwaies loved-truth in the inward parts he alwayes required of all his Sons to give him their hearts in his worship he alwayes commanded the Jews to love the Lord their God with all their hearts and minds and soul and strength Did this under the Law any way hinder that children might not be admitted members of the Iewish Church because they could not perform inward heart-worship and spirituall service did God upon their circumcision accept of them as if they did perform all those spirituall services and heart-duties untill they came to an actuall and personall capacity actually and personally to perform the same And will he not now accept of children baptized as if they did actually and personally perform those services unto him which under the Gospell he requireth untill they likewise come to an actuall and personall capacity so to do And then wil he accept or reject them as they are found faithfull or unfaithfull in these things 4. Whereas you say that the New-Testament knoweth us such member of Churches as infants c. I answer that tho I will not say or deny that the New-Testament knoweth not any infant-members of Churches yet the New Testament knoweth and hath taught others also to know that children are due subjects of Baptism And that it never knew not taught any to know where ever they were or ought to be rejected and denyed the participation thereof Our controversie is not about infant-Church-member-ship but infant-baptism Your tenth Argument for your beliefe in the business of Baptism viz. against Infant-Baptisme and for your separation Mr. Lamb. c. is taken from your observation of the righteous hand of God who causeth the sharpest and most able Adversaries to you in this point to let fall such expressions as justifie what they go about to oppose and condemn as Mr. Richard Baxter saith the aged are 1. the most fully capable subiects 2. the most excellent subiects 3. the most eminent subiects 4. of whom Scripture fully speaketh 5. the greater part of the world when Baptism was instituted who were to be partakers of it But on the contrary for infant-baptism he Mr. Baxter acknowledgeth it so dark in the Scripture that the controversie is thereby become not onely hard but so hard c. SECT L. YOU needed indeed to have written this in Capitall Letters that every one that runs may read the profundity thereof Reply The aged are the most capable subjects of Baptisme Ergo Children are no subjects thereof The aged are the most eminent subjects Ergo Children are no subjects Mr. Lambs miserable inferences from Mr. Baxters words the Scripture speaketh fully of them Ergo not at all of Children The aged were the greater part of the world that did partake of Baptisme Ergo Children were no part of the world that did partake
THE ANABAPTISTS MERIBAH OR VVaters of Strife BEING A Reply to a late insulting Pamphlet written by Thomas Lamb Merchant Intitulled TRUTH prevailing against the fiercest Opposition OR An Answer to Mr. John Goodwins Water-dipping no firm footing for Church-Communion WHEREIN The impertinency of M. Lamb's Answer and the validity of M. Goodwin's Water-dipping c. are manifested by I. Price a member of the Church of Christ whereof the said Mr. Goodwin is Pastor ISA I. 44.20 He feedeth on ashes a deceived heart hath turned him aside that he cannot deliver his soul nor say is there not a lye in my right hand GAL. 1.6.7 I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ LONDON Printed by T. Lock for Henry Eversden and are to be sold at his shop at the Sign of the Gray-hound in St. Pauls Church-yard 1656. THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY To the Reverend my honoured and beloved PASTOR Mr. IOHN GOODWIN and the Church of Christ walking with him in the Order of the Gospell usually meeting together in Coleman-street in London Honoured and Beloved ALthough the separations rents and divisions together with the Distempers and Distractions lately made by our Brother Lamb and some few others from and in the Church were of a very sad and dangerous import threatning not to leave one Stone of Gods Building upon another which should not be thrown down yet God whose onely prerogative it is to bring Light out of Darkness and Good out of Evill hath graciously produced a very comfortable orderly and regular settlement out of that Chaos and confusion in so much that as the false Doctrines concerning the necessity of Circumcision unto Justification as some now speak little less of Baptism and that according to their way and manner introduced by false Apostles amongst the Churches in the first plantation of the Gospel did occasion severall Epistles to be written by the Apostle Paul and others for the vindication and clearing up of the truth as it is in Iesus not only in that particular but also in many other Truths of rich and high concernment and a firm establishment of the Churches in the Doctrine of Faith towards God and love amongst the Brethren Even so these late and unhappy differences through Gods blessings and goodness have had the like success amongst you setting both Pastor and people upon a diligent and studious inquiery into and discovery of the Truth and establishing them therein So that out of this Eater hath come Meat the weak are made strong and the strong stronger they that seemed to stagger do now stand and the feet of them that stood are now established none being in such danger as formerly to be turned out of the way but those things which formerly hindred being removed out of the way Faith and love Piety and charity will as they do go on and prosper yea run and be glorified in the midst of you you did lament and mourn but your sorrow is turned into joy God hath taken away your Sackcloath and Ashes and girded you with joy and gladness The foundations of your building did seem to be removed out of their places and the pillars thereof did tremble but the Highest himself hath established you and will guide your feet in the way of truth and peace And as for our brethren have they stumbled indeed at ceremonies as the Iews did that they should fall God forbid But if through their fall establishment be unto you shal not their restoration belife from the dead And let every one of us that stand take heed least we fall If we ponder the pathes of our feet our wayes will be established Prov. 4.26 Though I am not able to add unto your spirituall stature or increase in knowledge in the business in controversie who are so richly instructed herein and that very lately by our honoured and beloved Pastor and others yet if I do but put you in minde of the things which you know after mine own wonted Dialect and plain manner being moved hereunto by some of your selves I doubt not its Christian acceptance with you and who knowes whether God may not make five loaves and two fishes I mean a little of mean fare to be as a feast of fat things unto you My hearts desire and prayer unto God for you all is that henceforth none of you may stumble and fall Isa 8.15 2 Coll 8. 2 Tim. 3.6 2 Pet. 2.3 2 Cor 11.20 and be broken and snared and taken that no man may spoyl you as sheep-stealers snatching you away from the fold or flock of Christ nor take you prisoners nor make merchandize of you nor bring you into bondage but that you may florish in the Courts of the house of our God running without weariness and walking on without fainting that it might be with you yet after many and many years to come as it was with Moses in his old age whose sight did not was dim neither was his natural strength abated that as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord so ye might walk in him rooted and built up in him and established in the faith as you have been taught that your hearts may be comforted by daily refreshings from the presence of the Lord beeing knit together yea rooted and grounded in love increasing still with the increasings of God and thriving in all riches of spirituall understanding to the perception and acknowledgment of the mystery of God and of the Father and of Christ that every one of you may be made up of God amongst his jewels and be found on the right hand of Jesus Christ among his sheep at that great day and may live and reign with him for ever and ever Amen So prayeth The meanest of you all J. Price Septemb. 24. 1655. THE ANABAPTISTS MERIBAH OR VVaters of STRIFE SECT I. THe injuries which David received from his enemies were much more tolerable then those which he suffered from his friends The lifting up of the heel of his own familiar the man whom he trusted this was a sword piercing through his soul And doubtless it was none of the least of Christs sufferings that one of his Family his society of his own Disciples should betray him into the hands of sinners That Julius Caesar should be slain by his own Son Brutus among the rest this pierced him worse then any ponyard It was Queen Elizabeths complaint that she had found Treason in Trust How unkindly unnaturally and unchristianly Mr. Mr Lambs a buse of Love Lamb in his late Book hath dealt shall I say with his old Friend nay his spiritual Father and Pastor Mr. John Goodwin whom by his own acknowledgment God hath made seventy times seven times a Messenger and Angel of light life and peace unto him is not only the observation but the very astonishment of all
We read of mens forsaking the assembling of themselves together Rom. 16.17 We read of men making divisions and offences contrary unto the true Doctrine which they formerly received 1 Cor. 1.10 We have a caution which implyes a danger against divisions an exhortation to be perfectly joyned together in the same mind c. Implying that men are apt to divide first in judgment next in practise Act. 15.1 we read of some that did put life and salvation in an outward Ceremony urging that except men were circumcised after the manner of Moses they should not be saved circumcision it self not being forbidden until the necessity thereof unto justification was maintained In many places more we read that those persons that did with such importunity and upon penalty of life and salvation insist thus upon any thing but true faith in Christ Jesus did separate and proved very sore enemies unto their Opposits the true believers It is an easie matter to take severall yoaks of the Old Oxen of the Old-Testament as wel as the Heifers of the new to plough in this field There we read of Cautions Exhortations Dehortations Instances and Examples about forsaking the Covenant of God the Law of God the house of God c. and ploughing thus with the heifers of the holy Scriptures we may finde out the Riddle of your departing from us SECT XXI In the next place you charge us for mis-judging you Mr. Lamb in his second Epistle and bring in this as your consolation that Paul and Iohn and other holy men of God suffered in this kind and why not you Where have we judged you What hath been declared by the Church against you It is true your separation from us was voted by the Church to be in their judgments and consciences an undue act which you could not but expect the Church should do otherwaies they should do little less than justifie you But what ever your person all deportment hath been unto them whereof I delight not to make mention yet you know theirs unto you have been friendly and christian and that your company and guists yea and very countenance have been very welcome to them YOu tell us that no worldly thing separated you from the Church Mr. Lamb. and complain that some body dream't such a thing SECT XXII YOu say some dreamt of such a thing of you But is not this a dream of your own brain Reply If some body did dream so how came you to the knowledge of it Did they ever tell you the dream If they did dream it it was but a dream and will you be offended at mens dreams How come you to be so touchy However we see your mighty care to be wel thought of You will divide from us break your faith and trust with us seek to extirpate and root us up scandalize our Pastor in the eyes of all men rendring him evill for good and yet would not have any man so much as dream any thingamiss of you We cannot dream waking whatever we do while we sleep Well it was no outward thing caused you to quit your former standing but say you THe truth concerning it Mr. Lamb in his second Epistle viz. Baptism and your standing c. struck my conscience and the light shone into my Judgment with that clearness that I could by no means aâ—oid it with peace SECT XXIII TRuth struck your conscience Reply Striking implyes violence and suddenness Gods ordinary way in giving Light is by gradations causing it to shine more and more unto the perfect day making men to grow in grace The spirit of God not violent in enlightning mens judgements and in the knowledg of Iesus Christ Iacobs getting Venison so suddenly which was not ordinarily gotten but by much labour and pains though pleasure in hunting gave his father just cause to suspect that it was but some counterfeit Venison For my part I ever suspect sudden flashes God is not usually in the Earth-quake nor in the rushing wind but in the soft and still voice Clearness of Iudgement in cases controverted among the godly learned is not quickly attained This is Venison usually gotten after and by means of much Hunting I believe you have made it one of your observations that in these latter dayes some persons have been Planet-struck blinded and blasted when they have thought themselves Truth-struck You say the Light viz. in the Doctrine of Baptism shone into your judgement with clearness Isa 28.7 Zach 13. Men may erre in vision and afterwards be ashamed of their own Vision and lament themselves with wo unto us in that we have put darkness for Light and Light for darkness To study the wiles methods and subtilties of Satan in causing men to erre in judgement is a seasonable study in these slippery times for our Christian caution against his cunning his most thriving trade in these dayes being to transform himself into an Angell of Light SECT XXIV WE have not hitherto felt so much as the weight of your little finger in arguments You have spoken much of Truth of clear Light of truth in evidence of the Scripture of truth cloathed with the majesty of God meaning still in the point of Baptism and of withdrawing from those Churches that are not so and so baptized as if the ignorance here of were so scandalous that it renders men unworthy of the meanest place so much as of being Dore-keepers in the house of God I pray let us see your strength and shew us your Light For this end you tell us in these words Now what those considerations are Mr. Lamb that commanded my Iudgement to that point whereat it now standeth in the business of Baptisme which is that onely thing which separated between me you you haâ—e scattered up and down in this my Answer to Mr. Goodwin but yet I think good to give you the summe thereof under a few Heads SECT XXV YOU say your considerations presented to us in your Epistle to the Church from whence you have withdrawn Reply do contain the sum of what is scattered up and down in your book Herein you utter in my judgment the truth for the spirit heart and soul of your book seems rather to be heated with zeal against Mr. Goodwin then for the truth Well sure the sum of all is in your considerations we will take them into our considerations also You deal your self out in the business thus 1. Mr. Lamb. I considered the excellency of Jesus Christ above Moses from thence argued the ungodliness and danger of slighting him in any of his Commandments AS for this consideration we with you speak the same thing and are perfectly joyned together in the same mind Reply and in the same judgment VVhat will you make of this to your separation from us That we shall see hereafter VVell proceed then 2. Mr. Lamb. I found Baptism with Water to be one of his viz. Christs commandments and ioyned
conceive it was to instruct them to inform the world that now the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles also as to the Jews and that the blessing of Abraham is now come upon the Gontiles through Iesus Christ being rejected by the Jews and that the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs and of the fame body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospell The words Iews nation under the Law were comprehensive importing the men women and children The words Gentiles and nations under the Gospel cannot with the least shew of reason be restrictive importing only men and women with the exclusion of children The salvation sent by God to the Jews the blessing of Abraham that was upon the Jews the Covenant whereof the Jews were heirs was such a salvation such a blessing such a covenant as was assured signed and sealed unto the children of the Jews The children therefore of those Gentiles that accept of this salvation this blessing this covenant which the Jews rejected being in no place of Scripture cut off God forbid that we should dare to cut them off though it seems you dare Consider as it is a cursed thing to add unto the word of God so it is no less a cursed thing to take any thing from the same Christ saith plainly go teach all nations baptizing them viz. all taught nation you say go teach all nations baptizing only such of every nation as are actually taught and instructed In Scripture acceptation men women and children made up the taught nation of the Jews in your sense and meaning only the men and women must be the taught nation of the Gentiles and children excluded The Scripture makes the Covenant of Grace and the figns thereof to belong to the men women and children of the Jews and in the application thereof unto the Gentiles makes use of the same comprehensive Expressions to them as were used to the Jews viz. Gentiles Nation But you will take upon you to cut off more than a third part thereof without any commission or authority from God or from Iesus Christ for your instruction or voucher It is a sin of an equall demerit to pul down Gods posts and set ours up by his as it is to set up by Gods posts any posts of our own Again whereas you adde in this Consideration Mr Lamb. That the same presence of Christ is promised ioyntly to Baptisme as to Teaching to the end of the world SECT XXX I Reply That if by the same presence of Christ you mean the same Reply in respect of reality and truth that is that there is a true and reall presence of Christ promised unto Baptism as there is in Teaching we are Partners with you in the same meaning But if by the same presence of Christ your meaning be the same every way and no otherwaies that is there is one and the self same and no other operating presence of Christ in the Administration of Baptism as there in Teaching or Preaching the Gospel then it is denyed There is a reall but a different presence of Christ in the Baptisme of Infants from that in preaching the word There is a manifold presence of Christ or operation of his Holy Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel which is not at all in the Ministration of Baptism There is nothing symbolicall or otherwaies in baptism preaching Jesus Christ to be the Son of the Virgin Mary that he was betrayed by Judas one of his Disciples that he was the Son of David that he suffered death upon the Cross c. which is to be known by teaching the Gospell and a sutable presence of Christ doth accompany such Doctrines c. But yon insinuate as I conceive such a thing as this in saying there is the same presence of Christ promised unto the Ordinance of Baptism as is promised to that of teaching to the end of the world viz. That there is such a kind of the presence of Christ in teaching which none are capable to understand but persons at years of discretion having personally an actuall capacity of understanding receiving and believing the same and that the self same presence of Christ there is in Baptism whereof children are not capable I mean so to understand and that therefore as teaching belongs not unto Infants because they cannot understand nor enjoy the presence of Christ in that Ordinance even so Baptism be longs not to children because they cannot understand the same neither can they enjoy the presence of Christ therein If this is your meaning I answer SECT XXXI FIrst In what sense children are capable of the Doctrine of baptism that no such presence of Christ is promised unto or doth accompany baptism otherwaies then was promised unto or did accompany the Ordinance of circumcision under the Law The presence of Christ necessary to make the Ordinance of baptism profitable is such a prefence as shall first teach the subjects of Baptism to speak in your Language the Doctrine of dying unto sin rising up and living unto God the Doctrine of mortification of sanctification And secondly such a presence of Christ as shall duly affect their minds with sutable affections and heavenly dispositions under in and by such a vision Such a presence of Christ as this was as necessarie for the usefull improvement of the Ordinance of circumcision of old namely such a presence of Christ as should first teach and instruct the subjects thereof according to their capacities in the Doctrine of the circumcision of the heart the cutting off of the superfluity of naughtiness the circumcision made without hands And thirdly Such a presence of Christ as should duly affect their minds with holy and heavenly sutable affections And the children were not capable of such a presence of Christ yet you know they were by Gods will and pleasure to partake of that Ordinance notwithstanding Surely God did not command the Ordinance of circumcision under the Law but he did vouchsafe his presence unto those upon whom he did enjoyn it Even so as great and effectuall a presence of Christ is promised and performed unto children baptized under the Gospel as was performed unto children circumcised under the Law 2. The presence of Christ promised and made good unto persons that are found under those Ordinances which God hath appointed may not be so much for the present benefit and sensible accommodation of all the true subjects of such an Ordinance as for the immediate benefit of the standers by and persons that are Witnesses thereof And the benefit of Christs presence when it was first administred unto them may not influence it self at least in a sensible manner untill they come to years of discretion As the presence of God blessing the Seeds-man in the act of soweing is not sensibly found untill the Harvest You know the presence of Christ in the administration of circumcision did not appear in the children of the Jews in a spirituall benefit
untill they came to years of knowledg and understanding Even so baptizing of children as well as men and women of discretion may be accompanied with the presence of Christ unto the standers by unto the administrators and Witnesses of the thing done and do service for the present upon them and upon children also when they are capable to understand the Mysteries of God imported therein As for that passage in this your second consideration wherein you say that Baptism with water c. is an Ordinance and command of Christ Serving the Grand Interest of Remission of sins Mr. Lamb. and salvation in some sense SECT XXXIII IF by serving the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense be meant only this Reply How baptisme serveth the interest of Remission of Sins and how not that as the other Ordinances of Jesus Christ preaching prayer c. do serve or subserve unto these grand ends mentioned we are all brethren in this precious faith together with you We do believe that all Gods Ordinances and consequently this of baptism do accommodate and serve the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense though every one in its own order and manner But 2. If by serving the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense You mean as if there was as absolute necessity unto remission of sins and salvation that men and women should be baptized as well as believe and that it is not faith alone that justifieth or without baptism because as some of you have sensed it Jesus Christ hath said that he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved if you say of haptism and of the manner thereof according to your apprehensions as the Iews that came from Iudea Acts the 15. chapt ver 1. said of circumcision except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses ye cannot be saved if this be your sense concerning baptism and the manner thereof viz. Dipping c. then I say though you or an Angell from heaven shall bring in baptism or any thing else in competition with faith unto justification as some once brought in circumcision contrary to the Doctrine of truth which we have received you are and shall be unto us in this point as accursed And we rather affirm that if in this sense or with this hope and expectation you preach the necessity of baptism and dipping c. that Christ shall profit you nothing Again Whereas you further adde in this your second consideration that Baptism was Commanded by Christ to be done upon Discipled Persons I Answer Mr. Lamb. SECT XXXIII 1. Reply In whatsense children are discipled persons cipled persons in what sense not THat if by Discipled persons you mean only persons that are taught and have learned personally the truth as it is in Jesus I deny any such command of Christ concerning Baptism neither doth any word in the commission imply in the least any such thing The word in the Commission is Nations Go ye and teach all Nations baptizing them c. and we have granted that no nations are to be baptised but the discipled nations as no nation was to be circumcised but the discipled nation of the Jews Yet undiscipled persons at least in your sense undiscipled were circumcised Even so I conceive though no nations of the Gentiles were to be baptized but discipled nations yet children not actually and with understanding brought to the knowledg of Christ may be baptized 2. Suppose it be granted that none but discipled persons are to be baptized yet will it not follow that children must not be baptized The reason is because in Scripture-sense children of discipled parents are called discipled persons Act. 15.10 VVhy do ye tempt God to put a yoak upon the neck of the Disciples Children are called Disciples in Scripture c. This yoak is circumcision all are called Disciples upon whom this yoak was put Now this yoak was not put upon the neck of the believing Jews in respect of their personall subjection to circumcision for they were circumcised already but upon their children or upon them in respect of their children who are here called Disciples Again Iohn 9.28 said the Jews to the man whom Christ cured being born blinde we are Moses Disciples we that is the whole Nation of us Jews are Moses Disciples under the discipline of Moses Law And you know that children were under Moses his discipline in respect of circumcision Again the Scripture calls children by the name of Gods servants Lev. 25.41 42. Then shall he depart from thee both he and his children with him speaking of the jewish servants and their children when the year of Jubile comes for saith God they are my servants he and his children c. for they that is he and his children are my Servants If children may be called Moses Disciples and Gods Servants under the Law why may they not be reputed Christs Disciples and his Servants under the Gospel Again the holy actions of Parents are said to be done also by their children 2 Chron. 20.4 Jehoshaphat proclaimed a fast and Iudah gathered themselves together to ask or pray for help of the Lord Who are meant by Judah See verse the 13th And all Iudah stood before the Lord with their little ones their wives and their children thus children are said to pray with their fathers Again Deut. 29.10 11. Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God your captains of your Tribes your Elders and your Officers with all the men of Israel your little ones your wives c. that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God and into his Oath c. Thus children are said to Fast to Pray to Repent to enter into covenant viz. in Gods mercifull acceptation their Parents being exercised in those duties Why may they not be said now also to be the same with their Parents Again Psal 22.9 David saith thus Thou art he that tookest me out of the womb thou did'st make me to hope when I was upon my Mothers Breasts What is more plain in Scripture than this viz. in Gods gracious account children are said to hope and depend upon him even before they come to understand the Doctrine of hope Again Mat. 18.5 6. children are said to believe in Christ and a fearfull judgement denounced against those that shall do them injury And whether you do not wrong them by excluding them from the Ordinance of Baptism it concerns you wel to consider See the like Mark 9.36 37. and 42. compared together Again Mark 10.13 14 15. Again Math. 19.13 14 15. You shall see the heart and soul of Jesus Christ is free in the admission of children unto him though you thrust them away from him As for that last clause in your second consideration wherein you take notice that the celebration of Baptism upon discipled persons was commanded to be done With huge solemnity
in the Name of the Father Son and Spirit and that too amongst the last words he spake on Earth I Shall only offer this that those words in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost do not imply the huge solemnity of the administration to speak in your uncouth expression but a consecrating them unto the service of God discovered now unto them more clearly than formerly to be the Father Son and Holy Ghost it makes not one hair of the head of your Opinion about baptizing of persons at age c. white or black And whereas you add with an Emphasis viz. and that too amongst the last words he 1. Christ spake on earth it is so impertinently brought in by you to your purpose that these first words shall be the last words that I shall speak unto them and therefore shall proceed to your third Consideration which you give out thus 3. I find Mr. Lamb in the second Epistle that he Christ intended not the reiteration of it baptism by the same person and that therefore there ought to be all due care of practising it without corruption SECT XXXIV WE have digged in the same field of the Scriptures with you Reply Rebaptization condemned by Mr. Lamb himselfe and have found the same treasures with your self touching what you say in this consideration Only give us a like liberty with your self to add an Use of Reproof or of Correction to yours of Instruction viz. that seeing Christ intended not the Reiteration of baptism that therefore those are here to be reproved for their extream boldness and presumption that shall press persons already consecrated unto the service of the Father Son and Holy Ghost at the Waters of their baptism in the time of their infancie and that upon terms little lower than upon their salvation to a Reiteration of their baptism contrary to the intention of Iesus Christ Your fourth consideration runneth thus 4. Mr. Lamb. I found the design of Christ in the Ordinance it selfe be exceeding rich and spirituall namely amongst many other ends c. SECT XXXV THE Ordinance of baptism is indeed Reply exceeding rich and spirituall but I fear while you seek out the spiritualness and richness thereof administred unto such persons only and after such a manner as you plead for instead of finding these you lose the richness and spiritualness of the baptism you have received in your infancie which however it is or hath been unto you yet that Ordinance administred unto others in their infancie and duly improved in their riper years hath been as a cloud dropping fatness upon their souls and as the Tree of Life yeilding various fruits every month yea every moment of rich and pleasant tasts unto their spiritual palate You proceed in this fourth consideration to shew us wherein consists those rich and Spirituall designes of Christ As 1. Mr. Lamb. To oblige the Disciples unto Christ that as circumcision bound men to keep the law of Moses so doth baptism to keep the law of Christ. Therefore the Spirit borroweth the word baptism which respecteth Christ to express the obligation of the Jews to the law of Moses 1 Cor. 10.2 and were all baptised unto Moses SECT XXXVI HErein I confess that in my judgement you speak after Reply Mr. Lamb by consequents grants that children doe capable subjects of baptism notwithstanding theio infancie or according unto the Oracles of God and the analogy of faith For if circumcision bound men that is those that were partakers of it who were children in their infancie as well as men of riper years if I say circumcision bound the subjects thereof who were children as well as men to keep the Law of Moses why should not baptism bind them to keep the Law of Christ For if circumcision taken or received by children at eight dayes old did binde these children when they came to years of discretion to keep the Law of Moses what tolerable shadow or shew of reason can be given why that Baptism administred now unto children should not also bind them all the after-dayes of their lives to keep the Law of Christ I very much honour and approve of your Orthodoxism in this point at this turn You proceed Further the design of Christ is to affect the heart by the will of God seen in the Ordinance of Baptism Mr. Lamb. as well as heard in the word preached c. SECT XXXVII TO grant you this also in a due and qualified sense were but to grant you out of the aboundance of our own apprehensions in the truth thereof These holy designs of Christ in baptism Reply are as effectually brought about and his heavenly hand hath found out his enterprize herein by baptism administred unto Infants as by the administration of it unto others at age Your four first considerations premised you advance to the fifth This being the plain design of Christ in the ordinance Mr. Lamb. I considered Infants-Sprinckling which ordinarily goeth for baptism and found the great designe of Christ in a manner frustrate by it because there is no Sign or figure of any such thing as death burial and resurrection and consequently not that Sermon of the Gospel which Christ intended to make by it as is most evident by Scriptures which palpably discovereth it to be a humane invention SECT XXXVIII IT seems you took Infant-sprinckling called baptism Reply into your consideration as the Iews did Christ when they looked upon him as the Carpenters Son or as a Root out of a dry ground having no form or comeliness and beauty that it should be desired Mat. 13.55 And hence it is that it is despised and rejected and not esteemed by you Well however to us that believe our Infant-baptism to be by Gods appointment it is precious but unto those that be disobedient unto Gods will therein it is a Stone of stumbling and a Rock of offence I believe it hath been of a higher esteem with you There were some that grew miserably defective both in their opinion of and respects unto the Apostle Paul who once could be willing to pull out their eyes for him which argued themselves but not the Apostle to decline in godliness The true Reason why infant-baptism doth no more good unto some men The truth is as Christ could do no great miracle among those that did not believe even so your misbelief of the mind of God in your Infant-baptism hath hindred the rich and spirituall effects thereof upon your heart and soul But you say You found the great design of Christ frustrate by it viz. by sprinckling of Infants SECT XXXIX IT is not one of the least of mercies purchased by Iesus Christ Reply that there is an attonement made for the ignorances of his people The froward in heart finde no good certain I am if there be tares in that field of Infant-baptism that God sowed wheat there and it
Neighbours if his Parents dyed in his Infancie told him so May not Christians when they they come to age nay are they not bound as much to believe their Parents telling them of their baptism as the Iewish Children were bound to believe their Parents telling them that the Mark on the foreskin of their flesh or the want of their praepatium was the Mark of their circumcision which they received according to the Laws of their religion when they were but eight dayes old Or whether that baptism upon such an information and belief of it be not as proper and apt to do spirituall service upon their hearts as circumcision was to do upon the hearts of the Jews children when they come to age It is sad to see such shadows of Arguments to divert men from the wayes of truth Your seventh Particular contains little also but what you have already spoken and hath been also spoken unto I see we have seen your strength and what you have to say You run so much upon repititions but though your spirits be spent and strength is gone yet your courage remains You have a good minde at it still Hence it is that you snatch up your we opens again tho the strength of your arm is hardly able to hold them Here also you reminde us of your findings which you have â—an over and over and over again as if you had no sooner found any thing but you lost it again and then you finde it again What have you found here I finde the Scriptures in all expressness of Letter are in many places for Believers Baptism Mr. Lamb. This hath been affirmed and granted granted and affirmed but what then Reply Whereas there is not one such Text for children Mr. Lamb. nor any instance of the Baptism so much as of one child in all the New-Testament SECT XLI WHat if there be not one such Text for childrens baptism for it may be your emphasis lyeth there doth it follow that there is no text at all for the justification thereof We have found text upon text and text after text namely all those texts recording the commands of Christ upon his Apostles and Disciples concerning baptism so conditioned qualified and phrased as that all the art and skill that either you or the greatest of your Champions you have cannot with a salvage unto your right reason honour and conscience exclude children from the intention of Iesus Christ as the legitimate and due subjects of baptism And where as you say there is not any instance of the baptism so much as of one child in all the New-Testament we have found also satisfaction upon satisfaction and satisfaction after satisfaction from all those texts likewise recording the exequation of Christs commands concerning baptism as that neither you nor all the Armies of your party can evince the contrary but that here were many hundreds of children baptized where and when Ierusalem and all Iudea and all the Regions beyond Iordan being Iews and therefore would doubtless have quarrelled if their children had been rejected were baptized as also where we read of thousands and of families and houses c. that were baptized But it is worthy observation that you tell us That many learned men have acknowledged Mr. Lamb. that Infant-baptism is not in Gods Word SECT XLV 1. Reply IF you mean that many learned men have acknowledged that there is no expressness of Letter in Gods word Mr. Lamb rejoyceth in the testimony of learned men when he can finde any of them of his judgment about baptism though he cautioneth us about Mr. Goodwins learning shewing de facto that children were baptized it is not denyed you nor doth it make any thing for your purpose For neither is there any expressness of the Letter shewing where any women did partake of the Lords Supper And yet you judge it their duty being otherwayes qualified for the same to partake thereof But 2. If you mean that many learned-men have acknowledged that Infants baptism cannot be proved in Gods word to be lawfull nay not a duty I cannot but observe how that one of a City and two of a Tribe of learned men of your way do amount unto many in your eyes Surely if you glory thus in the gleanings what would you do if the vintage were your own Why should Mr. Goodwins learning hang in his light any more than other mens Well however every one of the many you mention be interpreters even one of a thousand yet shall they not be Rabbies unto me nor have any dominion over my faith in the point in hand You add And those that go about to found it Infant-baptism on Scripture build all on consequences ifs may-bees Mr. Lamb. why-nots which argument Mr. Goodwin hath often used to confirm the Doctrine of generall Redemption and to draw the contrary opinion under the suspition of error SECT XLIV DOth not Scriptures speak consequences in premises Reply as well as the premises themselves The Scripture no where saith Scripture speaks consequences as welas principles or premises That any one whose name was is or ever should be Thomas Lamb shall or may possibly be saved Can it not be proved therefore that one Thomas Lamb shall or possibly may be saved as well as if the Scripture had the express saying therein that one Thomas Lamb shall or may be saved The Scripture makes mention of Paul desiring Philemon to receive Onesimus not as a servant but above a servant a brother beloved May not a man affirm hence that Onesimus was not with Philemon when he wrote thus unto him When the Scripture saith speaking of Christs Mother and the virgins name was Mary may not we say and insist upon it as a truth very proveable from the Holy Scriptures that Mary was a virgin Again if we must not build upon ifs may-bee's and why-nots Mr. Lambs proofs by consequences are good but he wil not suffer other men to prove Doctrines by consequences how come you to affirm with that magisteriall confidence as you do that the baptizing of children is unlawfull that no children were baptized by Iohn or any others mentioned in the Holy Scriptures that it is unlawful to joyn with such persons in Church-fellowship that were baptized only in their infancie with many other of the like nature having indeed not so much as any rationall ifs may-bee's and why-nots from Scripture for the confirmation thereof would any man suppose that so much as a babe in Christ would reason after this rate Where have you been since you left us But whereas you add Mr. Lamb. which argument I suppose you mean which manner of arguing by Mr. Goodwins adverse viz. from ifs may-bee's why-nots Mr. Goodwin hath often used to confirm the Doctrine of Generall Redemption and to draw the contrary opinion under the suspition of error SECT XLVII IT would require you more pains to shew us one place in all his writings
thereof The proof of Childrens baptism in Scripture is hard Ergo impossible Can you be offended that any that should reason thus should be esteemed by rational men persons of a maimed fancie having their judgments and understandings stupified distraught and confounded Are these Arguments Men or the shadows of the Mountains Are not most and greater terms of comparisons and must these exclude all positives He that should say Mr. Lamb is the most ingenious in all his Family doth he deny the least degree of ingenuity in his children He that saith I trust the parallel will please you Mr. Lamb is the most Christian most Charitable most Edifying most Wise most Holy most Humble among his Brethren doth he deny that there is any christian charitable edifying wise holy and humble person amongst them all except M. Lamb If Mr. Baxter hath said more for your way in those few words and that upon pure principles of reason then he hath said against it in all his whole book his whole book would as much edifie the world were it in ashes as it doth now in ink and paper inriched with truth But alas the light of God shining therein will like the Sun in the Firmament run its course and prosper against all that shall rise up against it Again Do not you blush when you read over this your emphaticall query importing an assertion with might and majesty of truth Doth not plain Scripture proof and dark Scripture proof directly oppose Doth Scripture proof oppose Scripture proof Scripture proof is Scripture proof whether plain or dark and must the one oppose the other because the one is plain and the other is dark Is the Sun in its brightness and the Sun in a cloud opposite Can there be no proof fetcht from the Scriptures but that that is in the plain expressions of the letter Again because Mr. Baxter speaks on the surer side of the hedg hath the hedge therefore but one side Because Mr. Baxter saith it is safe baptizing those that are actuall believers not being baptized before doth he â—imply that it is safe refusing or neglecting to baptize infants What shall we say If a spiders web be as bars of Brass to you there is no hope It agreeth not with the wisdome and goodness of Christ Mr. Lamb. that Baptism should be so dark as Mr. Baxter saith it is c. SECT LI. MR. Baxter doth not say it is so dark as that the way thereof is not plain enough to be found by men that will seek it out Reply and enquire after it And it is agreeable to Gods wisdome and goodness that it should be as his wisdom and goodness have declared it to be in the Scriptures and it is no argument of your wisdome and goodness to question the same SECT LII Your 12th Particular is built upon a false foundation viz. that by baptism persons are immembred into churches which you have not yet proved Your quotation of Act. 2.42 will not prove your position Act. 2.42 Mr. Lamb. Observe your argument they that were baptized were added to the Church ergo all baptized persons in the Apostles dayes were Church-members May not I as well argue thus they that heard the word were baptized ergo all that heard the word in the Apostles dayes were baptized To insist more upon this would be but to follow you in speaking much to little purpose SECT LIII Your 13th Argument is barren of proof altogether viz. that infant-baptism agreeth to the carnall I presume you mean sinfull and wicked interest of men that preach for filthy lucre c. It is wholly denyed standing upon your own bare affirmation which shall pass having your own image and superscription upon it and if any wil take it for current coyn let him inrich himself with it if he pleaseth SECT LIV. HAving thus given us your grounds of your separation from us as if you had made us all proselytes by them having now drawn us not with the cords of a man but as it were of an Angell you justifie your self in your way and bless your self with an expectation not only of peace but even of reward as a man that hath now contended for the faith viz. Gods mind and pleasure that children should not be baptized that was once delivered to the Saints no where to be found in holy writ as of a man that had followed the example of the holy men of old in separating themselves from their holy and beloved brethren as of one that hath followed the Lord fully by forsaking his Church and people as one that hath kept the nationall covenant by breaking covenant which he made with the Church of Christ What shall I say He feeds upon ashes a deceived heart hath turned him aside that he cannot deliver his soul nor say is there not a lye in my right hand SECT LV. BEfore you have made an end of your Epistle you have yet one parting-blow again at Mr. Goodwin after the manner of some of his quondam adversaries who as you here have twitted and upbraided him with what he once writ to Mr. Thomas Goodwin touching separation from Parish Churches as you intimate as being a weak fleeting and uncertain man though for your part you profess it is not Mr. Goodwins shame you seek for hereby I believe your conscience will not say it was his glory that steerd your pen herein M. Goodwin no separate from the godly Presbyterians in his reformation as M. Lamb affiâ—ms But to answer you and all other Scribes of the same Order with you touching this point First know that Mr. Goodwin never came to Coleman-street at first as a parish-person nor after the manner of such mens inductions into parishes but there being a considerable pious and godly party in that parish who having a longing desire to enjoy the Ordinances of God in purity purchased the impropriation thereof whereby they enjoyed the liberty of chusing their own Minister And Mr. Davenport their Pastor having left them the said party made choice of Mr. Goodwin to be their Pastor and accordingly a considerable number of them did fetch him unto them He and they lived together severall years upon the best terms of purity and reformation in the Ordinances of God which their light and the frowardness of the times did admit 2. That when Mr. Goodwin wrote to Mr. M. John Goodwin not contrary in his practise to what he writ to Mr. Thomas Goodwin when he was in Holland as hath been injuriously cast in his teeth by his adversaries formerly now by Mr. Lamb also after the rest Thomas Goodwin as aforesaid the said Mr. Thomas Goodwin was in Holland as your self observe at which indeed Mr. Goodwin was offended namely that the holy learned and good men of those times such as Mr. Thomas Goodwin and others were should break away out of the Nation taking with them the hewen-stones of Gods Temples as you know many went away into severall
his brother going one before another in known wayes of joynt Reformation that in things granted by the generality of the godly party to be the mind and will of God each should provoke his brother unto reformation not intending hereby a liberty much less a duty vowed and covenanted viz. that in case of different apprehensions especially in smaller matters or ceremonies c. each should be obliged to run away from his dissenting brother If so be that in doubtfull and questionable things such as your notions of infant-baptism and rebaptization c. are each should be bound by this vow and covenant to follow his own personall conception where should two believers be found walking together And is the nationall vow and covenant which intended to make all the people of God in the three nations to be one a sufficient ground to render believers as so many wandring Cains to run away one from another what to joyn together as beacons upon hills do Surely you are an interpreter of the solemn league and covenant even one of a thousand To your argument of following your light Conceit of light notformerly discovered no plea for separation we have already answered Sect. 6. and elsewhere If you will not admit of limitations and boundaries in granting men a liberty of following their own private conceptions you lay a foundation of every mans departure from another of justifying mens apostacie if upon religious pretences though it be even to Turcism Iudaism and what not As for what you offer concerning M. Goodwins separation from the godly Presbyterians I have already answered Sect. 55. M. Goodwins second Consideration amounteth in brief unto this viz. That though it were granted that that very baptism viz. the baptism of believers at age and that by dipping was the only baptism-Ordinance of Christ yet their brethren though not baptized according thereunto having no opportunity through want of light or otherwayes for the same and yet withall an hearty desire unto it and endeavour after a discovery of the will of God therein I say in this case their brethren are according to divine estimate and acceptance baptized therewith Proof 2 Cor. 8.12 Mat. 5.28 where God judgeth men according to what is found in the heart whether it be good or evill SECT LVIII TO this you answer First by absolute denyall of the said consideration and affirm it a mistake that such Churches not actually baptized with your baptism should the premises notwithstanding be esteemed by God to have been baptized offering onely that that Text 2 Cor. 8.12 doth not prove that God judgeth a man actually and in a formal proper sense to have been baptized who never was thus baptized or that the deed is done when there is no such deed done but only a will to do it I Reply That to insist upon this is but to suspect the reader a very infant in understanding for doth the consideration it self in the very least imply that God judgeth that actually and in a formal proper sense to be done which was never done nay doth it not more then imply that it is only accepted in respect of reward as done though not done God accepteth the will for the deed Is this distinction of the will from the deed and Gods acceptance of the will for the deed as done though it be never done a perfect chaos and confusion unto you Doth M. Goodwin say that God judgeth that actually and in a formal proper sense to be done which was never done Doth he not speak only of acceptance as if done And is this so Aenigmatical and hard a saying to your understanding If this consideration given by M. Goodwin should not import a truth what hopes could you and I have of salvation Doth not God accept of our faith putting us upon a holy endeavour to keep all his commandments though we keep none but in many things sin all as if we did actually and formally keep them all and break none Do you expect at the great day to be measured by weight or by will Is it the willingness of your minde or the worthiness of your works that is the Ancor of your soul in the day of Christ But you have another answer viz. summarily thus 2. Though God accepteth a desire of obedience though obedience be not performed for want of knowledge of Gods minde therein yet this doth not excuse mens ignorance God doth not justifie men in any such false judgement I reply And is this an answer may not we infer therefore God doth not justifie your ignorance of his minde in keeping covenant with him and his Church and people though differing in some things from you but breaking the same as a thred of Tow. Yet we deny not but he may graciously accept of your will also for the deed But our work now is about healing this ignorance And thirdly you object That if God accepts your will for the deed your not being baptized as if you were baptized he will also by your own argument say you accept of us separating from you as still with you it being according to our Light as he will accept of your selves as baptized though not baptized c. I reply Our Opinion of Mr. Lamb with others that went from us more charitable of them than theirs of us That we judge and censure not the intentions of your mind but the unsoundness of your judgment we hope your hearts being right with God that he will pardon your mistakes and ignorances though rending and tearing up by the roots so far as in you was a blessed society of Saints and people of God that he will accept of you that is pardon you as he did Paul though breathing persecutions against the Churches of Christ because he did it ignorantly And upon these hopes and opinion we have of the uprightness of your souls we can joyn with you in prayer and any other Ordinances of Jesus Christ though you cannot so do with us And whereas you say that we have much more reason to judge excellentlie of you than you of us because your way is the poor persecuted way The praise of the poor a great snare ours the way in esteem your sayings herein savours so much of vanity folly spiritual pride and conceitedness that for your sake I shall forbear to say more to it Onely remember there is a snare of secret vanity in gathering up an esteem from the poor and meaner sort of persons are more apt to trumpet up such a mans holyness humility bounty charity c. then the rich but I spare you Mr. Goodwins third consideration is collectively thus The Scriptures expresly teach that by faith men become the children of Abraham and sons of God Iohn 1.12 Iohn 2.26 Rom. 4.11 12.16 those then that are not their brethren are bastards and not sons If they that are the Sons of God and consequently their brethren be ashamed of them and refuse to own them in
application unto us giving sufficient testimony that God hath accepted him and he promising to walk as a visible believer in all the good wayes of God what ever your principle is I am not ashamed to tel you that my opinion is that he should be received into Church-fellowship with us and make no scruple of entertaining those that have received the Holy Ghost as well as we And whereas you speak of Mr. Goodwins and tho Church practise in this kind tho all due care hath been exercised not to offend weak Brethren and to keep and preserve the peace of the Church yet upon occasion communion and fellowship with us in this kind I mean in that of the Supper hath not been refused when desired and the peace of the Church preserved as I could instance matter of fact for proof if it were meet so that your Sun of triumph is turned into darkness and where is now your glorying Mr. Goodwins fifth Consideration is to this purpose that learned men are not agreed about the proper signification of baptizo whether it be to dip or sprinckle c. much less illiterate men for for all that they know it may signifie to run or to ride or what not as well as to dip and therefâ—re unchristian it is for brethren to separate from brethren upon their difference in and about such things whereof they can have no better assurance than humane tradition You answer 1. if you were not unlearned yet there would be little advantage in the right understanding of the signification of the said word seeing learned men do differ about the meaning thereof SECT LXI I Reply In this you give Mr. Goodwin the argument for if the learned agree not about the meaning of the word much less the unlearned viz. upon any personall knowledg then there can be no certainty but humane tradition no nor yet the certainty of that because there are severall significations of the same word given out by this tradition You answer 2. That the Scripture interprets it Rom. 6.4 Coll. 2.12 and many other places I reply Rom. 6.4 2 Coll. 12. You argue thus baptism must terminatively signifie dipping because it is said Rom. 6 4. 2 Coll. 12. buryed with him in baptism which is as if a man should argue thus the word Christ must terminatively signifie the burch because it is said 1 Cor. 12.12 as the body is one and hath many members and all the members of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ May not I as well argue thus also touching this word baptizo that it signifies terminatively to wash and turn you to Luke 11.28 where it so signifies and when the Pharisee saw it he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner and whereas you seem to infer thus baptizo is to dip in Mat. 28.19 Go teach all nations baptizing them that is dipping them because it is expounded so Rom. 6.4 We are buryed with him in baptism buryed that is plunged under water as a dead man is buryed under the earth May not I also as well urge thus baptizo must needs signifie to wash because it is said Mat. 3.11 He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost what is that dipt with the Holy Ghost that 's harsh but washed purified made clean by the Holy Ghost and this was made good by the pouring out of the spirit of God upon men according to promise in Isa 44.3 and made good Acts 2.4 Again Mark 7.4 the same word is used for washing when they come from the Market except they wash they eat nor compare this with Acts 22.16 therethis very Ordinance of baptism is made use of with respect to this signification of the word for washing and now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized That liberty is allowed by the Church to Mr. Lamb which he denyes to allow the Church and wash away thy sins since then there are various significations of the word baptizo why wil you take upon you the imposition of any one of them upon us any more than we impose another upon you take your own way for your selves wash sprinckle dip whether you please all if you please we shall not be offended with you for it neither shall we separate from you for the exercise of your judgment herein give us the same liberty and come again unto us our right hands our hearts our souls are all extended forth to receive you You proceed Mr. Goodwins sixth Consideration you affirm to be the same with his first and therefore for your Reader to your answer to his first consideration for an answer to that also SECT LXII HOw miserably are you mistaken in this Reply his first consideration was that when morall and ceremonial precepts come to competition ceremonials must be suspended and morals obeyed His sixth consideration is to this purpose manifest and indisputable commands of God must take place and he obeyed when they come in competition with such commands as are disputable among the godly holy and learned men whether they are indeed commanded or no as to instance to edifie comfort admonish counsell watch over one another these are the undoubted commands of God and due unto those to whom they are solemnly promised to be performed except there be a releasing by consent or the providence of God otherwayes or dering it that it is impossible to make them good unto those individual persons to whom they were made but whether God commanda that children should be baptized as well as men or that baptism should be administred this way or another these things are disputable and dispured amongst believers what say you now is there no difference between Mr. Goodwins first and sixth consideration Well that consideration is yet untouched by you but sure I am you are sufficiently touched and more then touched by it and I trust you are not past feeling I wish you would seriously lay it to heart SECT LXIII MR. Goodwins seventh consideration is to this purpose That that text viz. Hebrews 6.2 so much insisted upon by you Heb. 6.2 and the brethren with you doth import a plurality of baptisms though in respect of the end of baptism to us there is but one baptism Eph. 4.5 Eph. 4.5 yet in respect of variety of subjects and different forms these may bâ—â— many and therefore these forms not expresly declared and manifested in the Scriptures it is a hard and unchristian thing to call those Churches accursed and unclean that shall not use that particular way or form that you so much magnifie and insist upon To this you answer first VVhy should that be hard to Mr. Goodwin which the Scripture hath made easie say you that is your interpretation no Text expresly or by necessary consequence proving what that form was Say I. 2. As for variety of Subjects the Scripture say you mentions but one viz. Discipled Persons to this I have replyed before Sect. 32. Mr.