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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

of the very mouth of God himselfe And if Christ saide he came into the world not to d●stroy the law but to fulfill it by what right can the Pope who deriueth his authoritie from Christ as his substitute and deputy in the earth claime the authoritie to make that voide which God hath ordained And faine would I know of you what faultes you finde in the word of GOD that subiectes may reuolt from their Prince and take them to another And I am sure you cannot name me one for doubtlesse there can be noe greater faultes in a Prince then Idolatry and tyranny and yet wee haue expresse commaundementes of GOD from his owne mouth vnto the people of Israell for to bee obedient vnto two notorious Idolaters and triumphes An obiection of controuersie with the wicked a●swered the one by the Prophet Ieremy Chap. 27. that they should serue Nabuchadonisor the other by Christ himself that they should pay tribute vnto Cesar But ye will say that Christ saide if thy brother will not heare the Church let him bee vnto thee as an Ethnicke and Publicane or customer and that we are commaunded by Paule not to keepe company with the wicken and by Saint Iohn not to say good morrow to an heretike And now I would fayne know of you howe the Iewes did shunne an Ethnike and a publicane did they not pay tributes and customes vnto ethnike Emperours did they they not serue them in warre finally did they not doe all dueties of loyall subiectes did they not also come vnto the publicans to pay their customs and towlles although they were nor familiar with them did vsually keepe them company Againe when Sant Paule did charge the Corinthians not to keepe company with a brother that was a whoorhunter or couetous or an idolatour or euill tongued or a dunkard or a violent taker away of other mens goods and not to eate meate with any such Doe you thinke the wife that had an husband the childe a father the bondmand a Lord or master infected with any of these faultes were thereby incontinently discharged of all duety towardes them yea and bound in conscience speedily to runne away from them and neuer to doe them more seruice nor come at them I am sure ye will say no for by the canon law they are bound to abide with them being excommunicated for any other faulte then for heresy And that is a latter edition of the Popes for there is no such distinction to be found in the cōmandement of God nor his Apostles But all excommunicated and wicked persons are alike commaunded to be shunned and no difference to be put betweene the Idolater and the whooremonger So then if Christ and his Apostles did not discharge the wife the childe or bondman of their dueties towardes the excommunicated neyther did they also the subiectes of their alleageance to their prince for they be as fast tyed to their prince by a bond and lawe which onely death can vndoe as the wife is to hir husband and therefore included in this word Lex of the canonicall verse that shewes who may communicate with excommunicated persons Vtile lex humile res ignorata necesse and also aswell vnder and subiected to their soueraigne as the childe vnto his father and the bondman vnto his Lord and master and so are comprised also in the word humile of the same verse But let vs returne where we left The Pope deposed Boleslaw the king of Polen for slaying in his rage Stanislaw the Bishop of Craccow yet when Saule had without cause vniustly and tyrannically slayne Achimelech the high priest and all his whole house saue one that fortunately escaped yea priestes in number fourescore and seuen all the men women little children sucking babes oxen asses and sheepe that were in the Citie of the priestes called Nob Yet Dauid whom God had annointed king and Saul did causelesse cruelly persecute from place to place sought by all meanes to bereaue of life yet thought not himselfe discharged of his allegeance by this detestable murder of the sacred priestes of God but when hee had him twise at aduantage saued his life and tolde Abisri who desired him to dispatch the tyrante with one blowe slewe him not for who shall stretch foorth his hande against the annoynted of the Lorde and shall be innocent As sure as the Lord liueth vnlesse the Lorde shall strike him or his day shall come that he die or perish in sight God neuer be mercifull vnto me if I doe stretch forth mine hande against the annoynted of the Lorde Yee see heere a playne assertion of Dauid that subiectes are not released of their alleageance if that their princes fall to vngodlinesse and tyranny much lesse doth he allowe that euerie priuate man murder him shamefullie yea when a younge man brought Dauid newes of Saules death and presented him with Saules diademe and bracelette Dauid put him to death because he had tolde him that at the Kinges great instance and entreatie that he might not fall into the handes of his enemies who enuironed him rounde about hee beeing no Israelite but an Amalachite had killed him saying why didst thou not feare to sende thy hande that thou mightest kill the annoynted of the Lorde And againe the bloode be vpon thy heade for thy mouth hath spoken against thee saying I haue slaine the annoynted of the Lord. Wherefore seeing Dauid doth allowe no cause of reuoulte and doth thinke that the subiectes are loosed of their alleageance by no fault and wickednesse of their prince by what warrant of the worde can the Pope at his pleasure release subiectes of their alleageance And whereas we reade in the 34 of Iob that GOD doth make the hypocrite man to raigne for the sinnes of the people or as other translate it to afflict and plauge the people what a malapart parte is it of the Pope to pull the rodde out of Gods hande by violence and to chase him away whome God hath specially sente to chastice his people Neyther haue I sucked this sentence out of mine owne fingers endes but learned it of a learned greate Pope Gregorie the greate who interpreting in his moralles the late rehearsed place of Iob and alleadging vnto it the thirteenth of Osee I will giue Kinges in my furie hath these wordes Quid ergo illos nobis praesse despicimus quorum super nos regimina ex Domini furore suscepimus Why then doe we despise them to be our princes whose raignes and gouermentes ouer vs wee haue receiued from the wrath of GOD So that the Pope may not displace the good princes because they are good princes nor the euill because they are placed by GOD to punish his people And if the Canonistes holde that no man can iudge the Pope because he sitteth in the chiefest chaire Who then shall iudge the king who is saide in 2. Paralip 9. to be ordained of God to set vpon his owne throne and shall

A COVRTEOVS CONFERENCE with the English Catholickes Romane about the six Articles ministred vnto the Seminarie priestes wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie and the principles of their owne religion that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her And finally that the Bull of Pius Quintus pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued and many memoriall matters exactly discussed which haue not beene handled by any man heeretofore Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist DEVS IMPERAT ASTRIS R D LONDON Imprinted for Robert Dexter dwelling in Paules Church-yard at the signe of the Brasen Serpent 1598. The Six propositions handled in this Booke ●at the Pope and all the Bishoppes and priestes are subiect by the we of God vnto the temperall magistrate in whose Realme and Dominions they doe dwell 2 That they cannot depriue Christian princes of their principalities ● That the Pope cannot loose subiectes of their natural faith and obed●ence vnto their prince 4 That it is no determination of faith that the Pope may depose princes 5 That the Canon made at the counsell of Laterane touching the deposing of princes the which hath bredde the greatest scruple in the consciences of our Catholickes Romane neither is nor euer was 〈◊〉 ●●●●e within this land ● That the sentence pronounced against her Maiestie was neither lawfully nor orderly done according vnto the Laterane Canon The Preface to the Reader THIS Booke Christian Reader was written by one Iohn Bishop a recusant papist what sufficient reason there is notwithstanding to commit it to the presse and from thence to the open veiw of all men in the diligent perusing consideration therof thou maist plainely perceiue and vnderstand It is a booke which in the iudgement of many godly and learned men is very necessary to come abroad neither hath anie obiection bene made against the publishing of the same but onely this that it is to be feared it will be a meanes to bring the papistes into more fauour as discouering them to be nothing such dangerous enemies to the state as of the greatest part they are reputed but surely I see no cause to stand in feare of any such effect but rather to rest fully resolued vpon the contrarie that for asmuch as howsoeuer some one of them being astonished with the light of Gods trueth and looking backe to the former times sheweth himself nothing so absurd as other yet seeing the professed doctrine of their Church is otherwise and the continuall practise of the Pope all his adherentes is directly to the contrarie by murders treasons and rebellions and by the inuasions open force of cruell enemies seeking the vtter destruction of the Queenes most excellent Maiestie whom God manie yeares yet preserue and of all others that professe in trueth the glorious Gospell of Iesus Christ accounting the Popes Bulles a sufficient warrant for the ouerturning of Gods ordinances and his pardons a strong bulwarke against the wrath of God against hell condemnation These things I say considered I see no reason to feare anie encrease of their fauour and credit by this meanes but rather to hope as there is iust cause to desire the encrease of their discredit and more straiter lawes for the restraining of them The magistrate hath had too much experience that howsoeuer the iudgements of some of the best learned among the papistes may peraduenture agree with the author of this booke yet the profession practise of them all both learned vnlearned is farre otherwise as by open and outragious attempts there wants no good will in them to testifie more plainely vnto the whole worlde if the day were once come they haue so long looked for if they saw any likelihood of preuailing but as the Lord for Sions sake hath hitherto defeyted their purposes returned their mischieuous imaginations to their owne cunfusion so I nothing doubt but he will continue for vs a brasen wall of defence from time to time heereafter euen vntill the second comming of his sonne in the cloudes Whether the author would himselfe haue published this booke it is vncertaine that at the writing hereof he was so determined it is very probable by that part of his preface which is come to our hands where he beginneth thus Whē I saw two or three years past many seminary priests that which next ensued after these words was rent off and cānot be found but on the other side of the paper it followeth thus And whiles I following Horace his counsaile nōnunquā premitur in annū did let this treatise lie by me in seasoning that it might at length passe abroad perfect fully refuting all obiections of moment which old shops had shapened or new forges had framed c. By this I say it appeareth that at the time of the writing therof he was fully determined to imprint this booke but afterwards it should see me his mind was altred perswading himselfe that the publishing would greatly tend to the offence disquieting of his Catholick brethrē For how is it possible that they should take it patiētly to see one of their owne professiō so eagerly fight against thē put thē to the foile with their owne weapons by the exprsse testimony also of the holy scriptures by so many approued authorities examples discouering to the world the tyranny the malicious the proud arrogant practises of their holy father Surely so far would they haue bene from taking it in good part at his hand whiles he was aliue that I am fully perswaded they neither can nor will with hold their tongues frō exclaiming against him now he is dead either accounting him to be an Apostata or els making themselues bel●ue that this worke is falsey fathered vpon him But to put them out of doubt both of the one the other That he was no backslider frō their religiō but vnto his dying day continued a recusant papist it is so wel knowen at Battel in Sussex where he was borne often cōuersant at London where he spent a great part of his time as also in all the country neare vnto Battel as that there nedeth not any further testimony And that he was in very truth the author of this booke of euery part therof is manifestly to be proued by his owne hand writing so well knowen at Battel in the cuntry therabouts also of many in London as that there is no neede to feare the clearing also of this scruple Let any mā that knoweth his hand is desirous to be resolued of the trueth repaire to Northhiham in Sussex at the house of George Bishop brother to the deceased author he shal at his pleasure haue a sight of the same To conclude this also wisely diligently is the reader to vnderstand that

in al thinges touching the royaltie of the same Crowne shoulde be submitted to the sea of Rome We doe also reade there that all the Barons and all the Byshoppes present and the deputies of those which were absent being asked euery man seuerally saide that therein they would to their vttermost stand with the King against the Pope so zealous were all good Englishmen in those daies of the auncient honour and libertie of their country and the soueraignetie of their King Moreouer Saint Germanye in the xxxix Chapter of the second booke entreating how ecclesiasticall persons may dispose of their goodes he vtterly reiecteth the Canon law therein and sheweth what they may doe by the lawes of this Realme and at the length he saith thus And moreouer a parson of a Church vicar Chauntery priest or such other all such goods as they haue by reason of the parsonage vicarage or Chauntery as that they haue by reason of their owne person they may lawfully giue and bequeth after the common law And if they dispose part among their parishoners and part to the building of Churches or giue part to the ordinary or to poore men or in any such manner as is appoynted by the law of the Church they offend not therein vnlesse they thinke thēselues bound thereunto by duety authoritie of the law of the Church not regarding the Kings lawes For if they doe so it seemeth they resist the ordinance of God which hath giuen power to princes to make lawes But whereas the Pope hath soueraignety in temporall things as he hath in spirituall thinges there some say that the goods of priests must in conscience be disposed as it is contained in the same summe But it holdeth not in this Realme for the goodes of spirituall men bee temporall in what manner soeuer they come to them and must be ordered by the temporall law as the goodes of temporall men must be Thus farre Sainte Germany then may I inferre if that the Pope the counsell and thee conuocation can not make a Lawe touching the goodes of the spirituallty within this Realme and that those which doe dispose of their goodes according to such a Canon doe sinne although it doe agree with the law of this Realme if they did it as bounde by that Canon shall wee thinke that the Pope the councell or the conuocation can giue away the goodes and landes of temporall men within this Realme yea and the Crowne and kingdome and that they doe not sinne mortally that doe obey any such decrees And what account is to bee made of the Popes dispensation in temporall causes the same learned author plainely declareth in the xli Chapter of the seconde booke where hee saith That although by the Canon law euery man may lawfully kill an Assasin such a fellow as will at euery mans request kill any man for money yet he affirmeth it is altogether vnlawfull in this land and that notwithstanding the Popes dispensation and pardon he that slayeth an Assasin is a fellon and so ought to bee punished as a fellon Moreouer in his xliiii Chapter hee doth conctantly holde that the Canon summes that do determine all scruples of conscience according to the Canon law doe rather hurt English mens consciences then giue them light and that there bee many cases in them ruled according to the Canon law that are not to bee obserued in this Realme neyther in law nor conscience And in xlii Chapter that although many sayings in the same summes doe agree with the lawes of this Realme yet they are to be obserued by the authoritie of the Lawes of this Realme and not by the authoritie alleaged by them Finally in the xxix Chapter of the same booke hee doth flatly ouerrule our present case whereas by the Canon Law an heretike hath ipso facto lost all his goodes and therefore can make noe execution he affirmeth that it holdeth and bindeth not here for if he doe abiure hee hath forfeited noe goods but if hee be conuicted of heresie and deliuered to laye mens handes he hath forfeyted all his goodes that he hath at that time that he was deliuered vnto them but not his landes before that he be put to death To this the Doctor answereth me thinketh that as it onely belongeth vnto the Church to determine heresies that so it belongeth vnto the Church what punishmēt he shal haue for his heresie except death which they can not be iudges in but if the Church decree that therfore he shall forfeite his goods me thinkes that they be forfeyted by that decree vnto this obiection he thus answered vnder the name of student Nay verely for they be tēporall things and belong to the iudgement of the kings court And I thinke that the ordinarie might haue set no fine vpon one impeached of heresie vntill it was ordained by the statute of Henry the fourth that he may set a fine if hee see cause and that the king shall haue that fine If this were the vniuersall beliefe of all good Englishmen in the time when the Popes authoritie most flourished heere and before this controuersie arose that neither the Pope nor counsell nor Church hath authoritie to ordaine any temporall punishment for heresy can he be accounted a true Englishman that doth holde that the Pope can depriue her maiestie of her crowne and dignitie for a pretence of heresy Of the counsell of Laterane or that the Canon made in the counsell held at Laterane doth binde vs heere in England But because we vnderstand that the greatest scruple in conscience of our Catholickes Romane is grounded vpon this Canon we will make a particular treatise thereof and to vncomber and discharge their consciences shew first that it is no determination of faith that the Pope may depose princes and secondly that it doth not binde in this realme not onely because as I haue proued before the Church can make no decree of temporalities but also because by the verie Canon Lawe it neither is nor euer was in force within this realme and finally neither orderly executed according to the order of the Canon And first because I shall haue occasion to examine euerie worde of one member thereof I will set it downe verbatim worde for worde Ca. 33● Si ver● dominus temporalis requisitus admonitus ab ecclesia terram suam purgare neglexerit ab hac haeretica foeditate per Metropolitanum comprouinciales episcapos excommunicationis vinculo innodetur etsi satisfacer● contempserit intra annum significetur hoc summo pontifici Romano vt extunc ipse vasallos ab eius fidelitate denuntiet absolutos terram exponat Catholicis occupandam qui cam exterminatis haereticis sine contradictone possideant in fidei puritate conseruent ita quod bona huiusmodi damnatorum si laici fuerint confiscentur si vero clereci applicentur ecclesijs a quibus stipendia per ceperint Which may thus be englished If the temporall Lord beeing requested

of the people and their Alies After he was created earle by the Pope and counsell and inuested therein by the French King and al the whole country had embraced him for their prince he cruelly cōmanded the citizens of Carcassane Towlose Narbon to dismantell their walles to fill vp their ditches This to doe saith Paulus Aemilius mine author also in the rest of this history they thought to be a wretched ●e pitifull thing yet they executed his cōmandement cursing the head of Simon they begin with their owne hands to make their country naked of hir wals they thēselues making thēselues subiect vnto all iniury Nether did that seme to be the greatest of their euils for Simon both because his purse was well emptied through the charges of the warres and also then he might throughly ●ame them being afflicted with miseries and manyfould mischiefes sendeth about collectors and coactors to leuie a mightie masse of money of the country It is strange that nature hath so ordained that euery mans priuate damages doe moue him more then the publicke sorrowe neyther can their be any sharper weapon found then that of money They which at his commandement ouerthrew their country could not endure the losse of their purse So that the warre that was saide p●●●●ched to haue bene taken in hand kept for godes cause and might haue bene ended by sparing of them that had yelde● and by dessēbling of things past was made now more hard to be ended through vnmercifull dealing Dores were broken open distresses were taken sighing shriking sorrowing weping wailing of men women were harde in euery house At length sorrow being turned into anger the olde Earle being then in hope of alteration had returned out of Spaine whither he fled after his discomfiture in battell was receiued of the Cyty of Tolouse and other Cyties there aboutes the byshoppes whom Simon had restored were driuen out againe because the multitude thought them to fauour him Then Aemilius seemeth to exclame against the wickednesse of this Canon in giuing principalities to strangers and sheweth how hurtfull it is to gods cause for the aduancement whereof it is supposed to be made thus saying Nihil in sacris bellis perinde obfuit atque mos iam exortus vt honesta proscriptione suas quisque respiciat res in ore omnium sanctū piumque versetur consilio conatu animo secus afficiantur S● de religione tantum agaetur si obliuio noxae sanciatur si sanatis mentibus fortunis hominum abstineatur omnes idem sentiant nūc de mortalium iure de comitatures est ea controuersia tollatur nulla erit armorum causa c. Nothing hath done so much hurt in the sacred warres as a custome that is now come vp that euery man doth by honest prescription regard and respect his owne that in all their mouthes is hearde holy and godly but in drift doings and in hearte they are otherwise affected If the matter be onely for religion if it be decreed that the fault be forgotten and forgiuen if when mens harts are healed their goodes be abstained from let them be all of one minde Now the matter in hande is about the right of men and about an Earledome let that controuersy be taken away and there is no cause of warres Ramond requesteth his auncient patrimony Simon holdeth fast that which he hath gotten by Armes the gifte of the counsell the benefite of the king of France These men are ●●●de●ill onely of there owne But the Pope because the matter had once before beene adiudged doth thinke it to stande with his constancie and with religion to haue the ordinances of their fathers to abide stable and his owne decrees inuiolable c. Thus the wise Barrons saw and wee also may that the warres in the Earledome of Towlose had ceased when the cause ceased that is when the Albigenses were expelled and the Catholickes Romaine restored if it had not bene for this decree of the Counsell that had adiudged the Earledome vnto Monssort which now seeing they were not contented with the reformation of the Earledome and the Earle continued manie yeares after almost to the vtter destruction of the Country and also the death of Simon who eight yeares after was in that quarrell slaine at the seige of Tolowse But there sonnes Almericke and Ramond continued theyr fathers contention When Almericke findeing himselfe to weake did three yeares after make ouer his right vnto Lewis the eight the French King for to bee created Constable of France Lewes wanne Aninion by assault yet dyed before hee could accomplish his conquest and his widdowe and regent of his young sonne followed the quarrell and at length ended it by composition that Alphonse hir younger sonne should marry with the sole doughter and heyre of the Earle and enioy his earledome after his disease this happened Anno 1235 nyneteene yeares after that all warres for religion had ended Soe greate a good had the first execution of this Canon wrought I haue dwelt the longer in the narration of this history for to shew the inconuenience of this Canon and also to set before the eyes of my Catholicke Countrimen what curtsie they and theirs are like to finde at the handes of a forreyne Catholike Prince if any should vnhappely which God of his vnmeasurable mercy forbidde and my hande shaketh to write through their wicked and pernicious treason obtaine the conquest of this kingdome But the english nobilitie that liued at the counsell at Latarane could not forget the wretched wracke and wast that a conquest bringeth and the slauery misery and the extremity and cursed calamities that the accepting of a forreine prince inferreth and enforceth who then kept wofull warres receiued from their auncesters by many discents for their auncient lawes and liberties of whom they had beene cruelly spoyled by the conqerour his successors and also deliuered them vnto their posteritys almost to the destruction of the bloud Royall well neere to the vtter ruine of their owne howses and the lamentable shipwracke of their deare country Yea and what regard the nobilitie and people of this Land had then of any decree and Canon made by the Pope touching any temporall matter it doth planely appeare by Mathew of Paris who writeth that when the Pope had sent Bulles of discharge of the Kinges oth and graunt of their auncient lawes and liberties and also excommunication against the Barrons and their adherents that did attēpt to force King Iohn to the performance of them The Barons would not obey them but all men generally and as it were with one mouth saide that the Bulles were of no moment because the ordering of laye matters did not appertaine vnto the Pope For that onely the power to dispose of Church matters was giuen by our Lord vnto Peter and his successors What meanes the insatiable couetousnesse of the Romaines to stretch out it selfe vnto vs what haue Apostolicke Byshoppes to doe with warres