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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A37074	Just re-proposals to humble proposals. Or An impartiall consideration of, and answer unto, the humble proposals, which are printed in the name of sundry learned and pious divines, concerning the Engagement which the Parliament hath ordered to be taken Shewing, how farre those proposals are agreeable to reason, to Christianity and to policie. How the proposers thereof may receive satisfaction therein, in all these respects. Hereunto are added, The humble proposals themselves; because they are not currantly to be found. Written by John Dury. January 7. 1650. Imprimatur, Joseph Caryl.	Dury, John, 1596-1680.; Reynolds, Edward, 1599-1676.	1650 (1650)	Wing D2868A; ESTC R205390	24,964	38

the Act of subscribing to the words according to that prejudice which the vulgar hath taken up against them in a generall notion Herein then the subtilty of the Policy doth lye that the matter should be couched in such a way as doth most commodiously favour that notion and strengthen it which in men of learning conscience and piety feeking a clearing of doubts doth not seem to be faire and plaine dealing and therefore may be thought to have somewhat of a Collaterall designe Secondly we may observe also that if the thing clearly professed in the second Sect. of the Proposals to be a known duty had been really intended and resolved upon to have been practised at this time no lesse then in generall termes acknowledged to be a thing at some time lawfully practicable there would not have been any inclination to do two things which here are done not without some contrivance First the performance of duties confessed to be due to such Superiours as are in places over us and by a people in our case under them would not have been per indirectum denied to be due by us unto them Secondly the words of the Engagement upon which the whole stresse of the scruple is said to lye and for which that which is confessed to be due to others is denyed to our Superiour Powers would not have been suppressed and left in the dark as they are but clearly mentioned and alleadged as they are not lest the falacy of the pretended scruple should appear For if the duty acknowledged in Thesi had been applied to the Hypothesis of our present condition and the duty required in the words of the Engagement had been compared therewith the pretended matter of scruple would by the full agreement of the one with the other havebeen found apparently impertinent but it may be conceived that the matter is laid thus before the pre-possessed Reader or weak discerner of such contrivances to the end that upon a full acknowledgement of a just duty and a willingnesse to perform the same in a case like to ours the iniquity of that which is supposed to be required of us by the Engagement may be heightened in mens apprehensions who are easily swayed to receive the worst impressions of those that are in places of power over them by how much then they seem to yield to a rationall duty and be of an equitable disposition towards their Superiours by so much they prevaticate against the intention of the Engagement to make it to be thought altogether contrary to reason and to justice by a slye concealing of the words and a suspitious interpretation thereof suggested as containing matters very far different from the acknowledged duty and wholly opposite to former Engagements Whereas in truth and deed there is no such thing aimed at by the Engagement nor implyed in the words thereof So that from the third paragraphe of the Proposals to the end thereof the whole matter and contrivance of the discourse may be thought and yet without doing injury to the Authours nothing else but a Politicall Stratagem and Sophisme grounded upon the mis-application and mis-interpretation of the Engagement and Covenant to entangle weake and undiscorning consciences and to keep up the spirit of dis-affection in the mindes of the multitude under the pretence of scruples of that kind The thing then to be offered to obviate the deceit of this politicall contrivance of the bosinesse and to give satisfaction if it can be admitted to this politicall scrupulosity of conscience is this that the words of the Engagement in their plain sense which imports a clear duty are to be confronted with that which in the second Sect. they confesse to be consonant with the will of God with the light of nature with the judgement of the Learned with the practise of former Christians and with their own principles and former Engagements and then if the Duty mentioned in the Engagement doth run wholly parallell as the case now stands with us to that which they yield to be a Duty as they State the case in generall themselves then they should be made to reflect upon themselves that they ought to be satisfied in this that by taking the Engagement nothing is farther required of them then what they proclaime themselves to be a performable duty in such a case But if their Politicall contemplations of the meaning of the Engagement through the sinister prospectives jealousies which they take up and foment against their Superiours by an uncharitable mis-construction of their aimes will not suffer them to acquiesce in this parallelisme of the Engagement with what they acknowledge to be lawfull then a further course may be taken and shall be offered unto them if they will intend to bring matters to a faire tryall and issue and that is this that the consequences which they say are implyed in the words of the Engagement may be taken into consideration and examined in three respects First How far the words of the Engagement do import in the ordinary acception by an indifferent Judge any such matters as they say are implyed therein Secondly How far if the words should import any such matters in any sense the performance of the Engagement in that sense is agreeable with the Duties mentioned by themselves in the 2. Sect. performable by Subjects towards their Superiours in the case they are supposed and wherein now we are Thirdly How far the Covenant and former Engagements wil be contradictory or not contradictory to this Engagement although the consequences here said to be implyed therein should be granted to follow thereon In all which matters if upon known grounds and principles of Christianity and Rationality a regular way of disquiry may be followed as it becometh Divines within their bounds in reference to Conscience modestly and not as it becometh States-men in reference to interests suspiciously and if they will ingage to stand or fall to the issue of that disquiry I dare in the fear of God undertake to let them see satisfactory grounds whereby their scruples will be cleared and wherein consequently their Consciences ought to acquiesce if they will not subordinate the inclinations thereof to an affected scrupulosity for the love of a party For that all this contrivance of the Proposals is like unto the hand of Joab in the mouth of the woman of Tekoah to bring about a designe rather then to receive a single-hearted satisfaction for themselves is neither irrational to think nor uncharitable to say but just and equitable in prudencie to suspect and here we have a clear example of a smooth and handsome conveyance of a State-business under a ministerial cloak and pretence of Religiousness not in but out of the Pulpit which is one of the things which in another larger Treatise I have shewed to be one of the main causes of our present distempers and confusions namely when Ministers meddle with State-matters either in their Pulpits a●… were

penalty as to be out-lawed of their Birth-right for not subscribing the Engagement SECT. III. What strength of Reason is to be found in the matter of these Proposals to draw on their conclusion THe conclusion which the Proposers inferre upon these Proposals is this We beseech you constraine us not to take the Engagement by any punishment but suffer us to be in safety under your protection although we subscribe not the Engagement as you require us to do If the rationall ground of this demand be inquired into it will be found to stand in the arguments which make good these three assertions 1. That we ought not to subscribe the Engagement 2. That you ought not to punish us for non-subscription 3. That we ought to have our birth right which is the benefit of the Laws of the Nation and your protection to that effect though we subscribe not If the Reason of the first assertion be asked viz. Why ought you to subscribe the Engagement The Answer will be this because we are streigthned in Conscience upon the Cases incident to the Engagement and cannot subscribe it without doubting which to do in us would be sin by the Apostles Rule Rom. 14. What is the cause of your doubting The cause of our doubting is 1. The sense of the Engagement importing things greatly different from that which we conceive to be our duty in respect of the present establishment 2. The seeming violation of our former Oaths 3. And the matter of grievous scandall which will be given to all sorts of people against the Gospel and our persons and ministery therein if we be counted perjured in our former Oaths which rather then to suffer and to make the glorying of our Ministery void we should resolve to dye For all which reasons say they we ought not to subscribe this Engagement because to our thought these are the consequences of the sense implyed therein nor can these inconveniences as to us be removed except the consistency of this Engagement with the former Oaths be made unquestionably evident If the Reason of the second assertion be asked of them viz. Why the Rulers of the State ought not to punish them for non-subscription The Answer will be this because Governours though in highest Authority are bound to avoid the laying of snares and stumbling-blocks in the way of their brethren and if these that are over us now should do as our former Governours did to impose ensnaring Oaths upon godly people and enforce their subscriptions thereunto they may by that meanes in the beginning of their Government lay the unhappy foundations of ensuing troubles to themselves and thir people as King James and Charles and the Bishops in former times have done And then another reason why the Subscription ought not to be enforced with a punishment is because the professed Principles and resolutions of these that are in present power are to have respect to tender consciences which in this case would not be rogarded if without considerations of these scruples a punishment should be inflicted upon the non-subscribers of the Engagement And if it be objected but what assurance can the Governours of the State have of the non-subscribers peaceable conversation The Answer is 1. That the many years experience of the good behaviour and faithfull service of the Non-subscribers ought to be taken as a better security for their peaceable disposition then a fained subscription which many yield unto 2. That they plead for a forbearance from Subscription only till by a solemne debate or otherwise their conscince shall be cleared of their important scruples If lastly the reason of the third assertion be asked viz. Why ought you to have the benefit of the Law and our protection to that effect though you subscribe not to be true and faithfull to the Common-wealth The Answer will be this 1. Because we have been faithfull all along to the Parliament till now of late these stumbling-blocks are come in our way 2. Because we have been sufferers with you and as much as any in the cause of liberty and Reformation 3. Because we adhere still to our first principles upon which you did undertake to give us protection 4. Because we do promise to maintain the Peace of the Nation and to pay obedience to the Lawes thereof whereof we crave the benefit 5. And because notwithstanding all our former Oaths and Engagements yet we acknowledge not onely the necessity of a civill Government in generall for the preservation of humane society and the prevention of out-rages which wicked men unrestrained would do to those that are peaceable but we consider also in particular this Government which Gods providence hath set up over us to be that under which we ought to live quietly and peaceably in our Callings and to which we will submit in all things law full and necessary for common safety without disputing the Right and Title by which it standeth and seeing this is the duty which we are willing to performe we crave the protection due to such as behave themselves after this manner although we subscribe not that Engagement which we conceive is greatly different from the tenor of these duties This may be conceived to be the full strength and Rationality of their Plea whereunto what by way of answer may be said shall afterwards distinctly appear in the Re-proposals and in the discovery of the way of satisfaction to be given hereunto SECT. IV. What the straine of Christianity is which in the manner of the Proposall is followed THe manner and way of proposing these matters as to Christianity seemes without offence the expressions being humble modest proper and grave the point of scruple solicitous open and plain and the matter of their professed Resolution without vanity or presumption sad and serious and although the Title Page if it be supposed that the Proposers of these doubts were also the Publishers thereof and that the Title Page was appointed by them to be made as it is may seeme to contain something contradictory to the Proposals themselves something unconformable to Christianity and something offensive to the superiour Powers which governe us at present yet it is more sutable to charity to think that some inconsiderate Zelot rather then any considerable company of learned and pious Ministers of the Gospel was the Publisher thereof and the Authour of the Title Page for it is not likely that any true Ministers of Christ in a matter of such concernment whiles they pretend to humility in their Proposals would at the publishing thereof claime to themselves the high Titles of Learned and of Divines then which nothing almost could be counted more presumptuous in them nor could any sting be found more injurious to wound the Authority of their Rulers with all then to brand their publick Consultations and the designes which they have for common safety with the-Character which is given in Psal 64. 5. to persecuting

which is dark and negative nor may I with a good conscience refuse to follow the light which I have in the main of a duty so far as it is practicable because I want some light in some circumstantiall cases which may fall in as to me to be unpracticable If therefore this ground can be laid and assented unto that whatever we shall agree upon to be a clear and undeniable duty in Christianity or Morality shall be practised for it selfe not withstanding all other differences or defects falling in among us and that in the disquisition of matters we shall proceed alwayes first to determine that wherein we fully agree before we mention matters of dis-agreement I am confident that we shall finde so much cause of satisfaction and assurance in each others resolutions and engagements of that kind that the different apprehensions of matters which now seem extream and through our mutuall mistrustings of each other are like to be the utter ruine of both will be found very inconsiderable and such as will be wholly swallowed up by the grounds of mutuall assurance which naturally results from every faithfull Engagement to practise things wherein there is a full agreement between parties for the not doing as I said before of that which in our places we should do with singlenesse of heart without contradicting and contesting one with another about that wherein we suspect each other as aiming at that which we should not do is the Originall and great cause of all our distraction and unsettlement which if we could intend to redresse and remove viz. by overcoming evill with good that is the feares of evill designs and enterprizes with good motions and engagements unto unquestionable duties there is no doubt but we should find a cleare way to Peace and reconcilement this therefore is the course which I would suggest to be followed between those that are scrupled at the Engagement and those that are not scrupled at it in their friendly conference and Treatie viz. First let matters of agreement be proposed understood and ratified in things Positive and Negative Secondly Let there be a professed Engagement to practise that which is answerable unto their Agreements and tending undoubtedly to edification between them Thirdly Let matters of disagreement both positive and negative be thought upon with these two cautions premised to prevent a breach First That no disagreement in Judgement or practise shall make void the Dutifull Engagement to follow joyntly the matters of Agreement Secondly That to take away the offences which may arise upon the differences of opinions and practises some Rules are to be pre-determined whereby contentious debates about the same may be prevented and whereby the right use of Christian of Morall and of Rationall freedom therein may be setled If therefore those Pious and Learned Brethren whose scruples against the Engagement being thus proposed have a great influence upon the minds of others to make them scrupulous and disaffected at it if I say they would condescend to the Overture of such a Treatie which hither to some have not been willing to do I am very confident through the blessing of Christ that an Expedient would easily be found to settle their doubtfull thoughts and so to make all others willing to yield unto their Superiours that ground of just assurance and acquiescence for which the Engagement by them proposed is requisite And this is the course by which those that are ingenuous may receive satisfaction if they seek it as they ought but if any doth scruple more through Policie then Pietie this course will not be liked of because it will crosse their design which is to keepe the minds of the weaker sort in a staggering condition that they may not close to any settlement but lye open to all manner of changes I shall not charge any of the Authors of these Proposals with any such designe yet I cannot absolve all of them from it for I may as lawfully suspect them in this matter as in any other matter I may do mine own heart whereof although I know none evill yet I shall do my self no injury to say that yet there may be some mixture of deceitfulnesse in it when I thinke my meaning is at the best For the Apostle himself would not take upon him to justifie himself in all things I know saith he nothing by my self yet I am not thereby justifie but he that judgeth me is the Lord So I may without offence say of the Proposers of these scruples that although I know nothing by them but judge charitably that their scruples as to them are truely conscientious yet I must also say that thereby they are not justified from the mixture of collaterall designes but that it is the Lord who will judge them The maine of the businesse may be truly a doubt of Conscience and yet the managing of it in the hands of some may be somewhat else nor do I wrong the Christian charity which I owe to all or any of them in this because it is lawfull for me to be jealous over them with godly jealousie lest by any meanes as the Serpent beguiled Eve by his subtilty so their minds should be corrupted from the simplicity which is in Christ And truly to look but upon the matter it self by comparing the former and latter parts of the proposals together a doubt may be made thus that seeing the maine scruple where at they stick is not so much against the Duty expressed in the words of the Engagement which is to be true and faithfull or against the Object of the Duty considered in it self which is this Common-Wealth or against the immediare qualifications of the Object and of the Duty which are as it is now established without a King and House of Lords which are acknowledged to be the effects of Gods Providence but onely against the act of subscribing to the whole in reference to some State-considerations and consequences following thereupon which tend to nothing else but to suspend the minds of men and take them off from the regular performance of a present Duty by the conjectural apprehensions of doubtfull inconveniences which may ensue as to the State Therefore it is not without a rationall ground of jealousie that although the matters proposed may be reall scruples of Conscience and rationally reflected upon by some without prejudice yet that in this proposing of them as to the disposition of the matter to fetch about this form of speech the hand of Joab may also have been in it for some selfe-interest of State And this may be thought the more likely to be true if we observe two things First that the words of this Engagement which are scrupled at and said to be contrary to former Engagements and the duties mentioned in the second Sect. are not at all once alleadged to shew distinctly wherein the mentioned contrariety doth stand but the objection is made confusedly against