afore doubted of by some Referring them to the .10 Chapter a Cap. 10. de 45.46 such errors as he layeth to the later Popes personally because they concerne not the whole Churche as neither the pretensed Arrianisme of Liberius in old time b Cap. 10. dem 38. such errors also as he layeth to vs now in respect of our shauen beardes rounded heades with other like taken as he saith of certaine old heretikes because he him selfe also counteth these but small matters Therefore I say reseruing these to their proper place we haue here no more but foure or fiue to speake of j. Touching the bodies of Angels One he reporteth thus Ar. 90. The second Councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible circumscriptible and therfore might be paynted And this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike Church Con. Nice 2. Actio 5. I answere you mispeport the matter for it is not the Councels determination no nor saying also but the saying onely of Ioannes Bishop of Thessalonica rehearsed in the Councell amongst many other authors with this admonition giuen after it to the Councell by Tharasius Bishop of Constantinople that they consider hereby the madnes of them that ouerthrew the Images of our Lord and of his vndefiled mother séeing this holy father doth shew that Angels also may be paynted And touching Ioannes him selfe his error is not so great as your ignorance maketh it saying If this be not to induce an error to make men beleeue that Angels and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer any error since the world began Soft man you go to farre other maner of errors you may remember haue bene since the world began which might not be defended as he defendeth his saying to the Gentill with whom he there talketh of Angels ipsa Catholica Ecclesia sic sentit The Catholike Church so thinketh quibus animas nostras adiungo To whoÌ„ I ioyne also our soules that they are pardie intellectuall Heb. 1 of psa but not altogether vnbodily and inuisible as you Gentiles do say but of a thin and ayrie or fierie body as it is written His Angels he maketh spirites and his ministers burning fyre And by the Catholike Church what he meaneth he straight declareth saying So thought And so Pâ— must put 〈◊〉 rather to errors of primitiuâ— Church many of the holy fathers we know as Basilius Athanasius Methodius and they that holde with them qui stant ab illis signifying that some other Catholikes helde otherwise Aug. â— cap. 5 And not only S. Augustine numbreth it amongst the things That without sinne a man may be ignorant of and therfore néede not cum discrimine with perill to be affirmed or denied or defined but also to this day no such determination or declaration of the question is made as the a Thâ— in q. d moni best also do graunt to condemne the assertion as hereticall though b Coâ— sub Iâ— cap. 1 â— sufficient to count it nowe temerarious and erroneous ij Touching the Popes superioritie ouer the Councell But the next error of our Church is I trow vnanswerable being such a one also as not only sheweth vs to erre but moreouer depriueth vs of al certentie of truth Mary that in déede must be séene vnto as you tell vs saying that we haue nede to lay our heades together about it Ar. 63.85 And this it is Your Canonistes and Diuines he saith be not agréed about the chiefest articles of your Religion that is 1 Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope 2 Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell may erre and not the Pope And what then These two The Popes determination and the Councels determination being the rules of truth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any truth be certayne in your Church Agayne by and by after You Papistes some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certentie of truth Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your beliefe first determine how I shall know when I am in a right beliefe And that be all which troubleth you me thinketh I should be able to satisfie you or any other reasonable man as you are if I say that you may know and that by the consent of both these parties that you are in a right beliefe when you holde those determinations that without controuersy are ioyntly the determinations both of the Pope and of the Councell together as the determinations of the Councell of Trent and of all other Councels without controuersie confirmed by the Pope Other Councels that are certayne not to be confirmed by him or also not certayne to be confirmed by him no man wil binde you to beléeue them or at the least not before it be certayne and so are you easily answered though it be supposed the matter to be so vncertayne amongst vs as you make it But now how much more if it be not so For how do you proue this disagréement The Councell of Ferraria and Florence determined That the Pope was aboue the Councell and that the Councell might erre And Eugenius quartus that gathered the Councell of Ferraria and Florence was of the same iudgement All this I graunt Now what haue you for the other side The Councels of Constance and Basill determined That the Councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope may erre Let this also be graunted And Martinus quintus the Pope chosen by the Councell of Constance was of the same iudgement Nay syr whoe there that you proue not nor neuer shall proue but onely that a Sess vâ—… Con. CoÌ„ … Martinus quintus at the petition of the Polonian Ambassador confirmed those determinations alone of the Councell of Constance which were agaynst the errors of Wiclefe Hus and Hierome of Prage And that b Sess 4 Con. Ba … Nicolaus quintus to auoyde much confusion ratified the collations of Benefices and such like thinges done in the Councell of Basill And that c Sess 16 Con. Ba … Eugenius quartus did no more but declare that from the beginning to a certaine time the same of Basill was Legitimum Concilium a lawfull Councell and lawfully continuated But otherwise as concerning the determinations and decrées of it neither Eugenius nor he that d Ar. 91 you name to wit Nicolaus confirmed it yea Leo decimus afterwarde in his e Sess 〈…〉 Lateran Councell most expresly reiected it comparing it to the seconde Ephesine Synode commonly called Lestrice whiche was repealed afterwardes by commaundement of Pope Leo the first in the Councell of Chalcedon Go now and say still in your vayne spirite of childish insultation Gentle master N. reconcile me these togeather This triu … vvanteth â—â—thing but 〈◊〉 victorie because
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
for sixe hundred yeres almost this land was neuer voyde of Christians Go to then and prescribe vs the forme of this tryall Proue you say that Paule or Simon or Taddeus or Ioseph or whosoeuer first preached the Gospell in this Iland in the reigne of Tyberius the Emperour as Gildas testifieth taught prayers or sacrifices for the dead proue it I say and the daye is yours for euer In this briefe answere one probation may suffice If you require vs to proue it out of the Scripture considering that the Scripture doth not tell of our Landes conuersion you declare your selfe to be but a pratler If other authors will content you what greater ones can you aske then those so many whom here cap. 3. pag. 20. you confesse to witnesse that the Apostles and namely S. Paule cap. 7. pag. 86. lefte that Tradition Another probation thereof you feare if the Brytaines receiued the faith from Rome of Pope Eleutherius which is most certayne as the Englishmen did afterwards of Pope Gregorie And therefore you talke so willingly of the Apostles preaching there afore not considering how that maketh more for vs in that the Brytaines thereby could iudge the better of the matter The Britons begun by the Apostles and Romanes accōplished by Eleutherius and so would not haue receiued from Eleutherius to whom they sent for their accomplishing the contrarie of that which the Apostles so litle before had planted among them Which probation procéedeth aswell although not the Apostles which yet I beléeue but the Christian Romanes to whom they were then subiect began the matter which agayne is most certayne But you are so afrayde of Christ our great kings Citie that is of Rome Pur. 371. the Christian Hierusalem that yet againe you say It were easie to proue by that controuersie which the Britaynes and the Scottes had against the Saxons about the celebration of Easter that our Countrey first receiued their conuersion from the East Church whose ceremonie they did then defende euen as the East Church did long before against Victor Bishop of Rome By which it appereth that this land did neuer receiue the doctrine and ceremonies of the Latine Church before the time of the Saxons But this your reason hath no other ground but onely your owne ignorance in the Historie as I haue noted ca. 2. pa. 4. Where also you haue an euident demonstration that the faith of the Britons first and of the Saxons after was all one because the greatest paynt wherein their Bishops differed from S. Augustine was that same about Easter Sonday in so muche that S. Augustine was very earnest with them to ioyne with him and preach to the Saxons Which according to your imagination had bene as wisely done of him as if we now should moue you considering that you kéepe Easter when we do to preache and teach as you do All this considered no man may maruell to sée you in suche a pecke of troubles about the Religion of the Saxons one while allowing it as it had bene yours another while condemning it Infra ca. 11. cōtrad 50. because it was ours Your allowance you vtter in the very same wordes wherewith here cap. 5. you allow of them that you confesse to haue bene the true Church of which all ought to be that would be saued Thus you say Pur. 335. All that was then taught the Saxons for Christianitie was not false For the Bishoppes and Christian teachers of the Brytish nation whose ayde they that came from Rome required and at last obteined to the conuerting of the Saxons reteined the foundation of faith Iesus Christ and the only sacrifice of his death Againe Pur. 337. Many things and the principal were true that were taught vnto the Saxons Now for vs you confesse and say Pur. 346. You thinke it is the surest way to looke to that faith in all points which this Land first receiued If men should folow your coūsel in some things they should folow your faith which you now teach Namely Pur. 335 336. they receiued vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead many other superstitious opiniōs Neither doth it folow that all that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vpon Christ the onely foundation perished If the Saxons receiued prayer for the dead why do you say of the Britaynes whom erewhile you confessed to haue taught them that although Gildas accuse the Priests of his time for seldome Sacrificing Pur. 332. and although the error of praying for the dead were receiued in other places yet whether this Countrie were free from it I am not able to say nor you to proue that it was infected with it Because of these poynts which you confesse and many others that you can not denie Ar. 49. therefore now the English Nation receiued their Religion first from Rome at such time as religion there was very corrupt The Saxons were conuerted by superstitious Romanists Pur. 337.348 Yea as some thinke they were not so much conuerted from Gentilitie to Christ as peruerted from pure Christianity to superstition Sée I pray you they were not onely Christians before but so pure as no other Christian Nation in the world if you remember what he said of all others here cap. 3. And yet againe on the other side were their corruption by those Romanes neuer so great Pur. 335.336.346 Ar. 49. yet such was the faith that was receiued euen of the Saxons that you can shew vs if we will playne and pithy confutations at that time of many poyntes of Popish doctrine and namely that which we count the chiefe the Real presence and transubstantiation yea and direct inuectiues against the Pope and all Popish doctrine Mary in dede that were worth the sight Do you graunt that in some things and namely prayer for the dead they receiued the faith which we now teach yet haue you cards of thē to shew not only against many points of Popish doctrine but against all popish doctrine And what be your cardes Diuers monumentes of antiquitie as Prayers Psalmes Homilies with diuers other smal Treatises and pamphlets in the old English or Saxons tongue in old English written hande and namely that printed Saxon Homily which was appoynted to be read at Easter Belike they were of S. Bedes making for so we reade in his life that he compiled many godly things in the vulgar tongue and not only in Latine and his Homilies to this day are read in the Churches or rather of some his Elders such as he in his Historie maketh mention of because it was one hundred yeres after our first conuersion before Bede him selfe did florish Is this possible thinke you No no. Non sunt rectè diuisa temporibus tibi Daue haec In S. Bedes story and in all his works and al other writers of his time and before his time you find nothing against the Pope nor against any one poynt of
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye