the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
end of the world professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles If then we restraine the Catholicknesse of the Church to vniuersalitie of place wherein as we haue seene persons are also contained The Catholicke Church is nothing else but the companie of the elect taken now ordinarily not onely out of the Iewes as heretofore till the comming of our Sauiour but also out of all nations and people whatsoeuer If we stretch it farther to vniuersalitie of time also which can hardly be prooued out of the ancient writers it comprehendeth all the elect that haue bene are and shall be from the beginning of the world to the end thereof And thus much of the Catholicke Church concerning the meaning and reason of the word Now to your proofe as it lieth not by way of refutation but of explication We grant as I haue said often that the Church is common to all people and places not shut vp any longer within the land of Iewry nor appropriated to the Iews and we condemne them of error who teach as sometimes the Donatists Rogatians did that it is enclosed in Affrick or Europe or Asia or America or any of these and not common to euerie one of them aswell as to any of them But this is not so to be vnderstood as if the Church of Christ must needs be in all these or many of these at once in any one time It is enough that we acknowledge the vniuersality of it de iure thogh we denie it to be here or there de facto To speake plaine it belōgeth to the nature of the Church of Christ to haue all places open to it it is no more tied to Rome or Ierusalem then it is to London or Paris yea it hath spred it selfe ouer the face of the whole earth and hath bene or shall be in euerie particular countrie but this largenesse hath not bene nor perhaps shall be at any one time but by succession as it hath pleased God to affoord the meanes of the Gospell and giue a blessing to it sometimes in one place sometimes in an other as your selfe presently acknowledge But this doth not prooue that it is a marke to know the Church by This reason of the name Catholicke is a mere deuise of your owne and without warrant of antiquitie I say more it is false too vnderstanding it as you do not of the Church of the elect but of a companie of men making knowne profession of the true faith For in the beginning when the Church of Christ was as pure and as glorious as euer it was since it stretched not it selfe beyond the borders of Iewrie but was for a time shut vp within the walles of Ierusalem till the Lord by Herods persecution made way for it to passe into all the world From that time forward it grew mightily and setled it selfe in many countries yea it ceased not to multiply till the reuealing of Antichrist who by little and little corrupted the truth of doctrine euen in the fundamentall points and so destroyed the Church of God out of these parts of the world where it had florished some hundreds of yeares Yet was not the world left without a true Church no not in these westerne countries but such was the state of it as that it remained in a few chosen seruants of God who were hidden like those fifties in Israel from the eies of your rauenous wolues the bloudthirsty Cleargy of your Romish Synagogue Saint Austin in that booke you alledge had to do with the Donatists who insolently and wickedly rent themselues from the vnion of all the christian Churches then in the world allowing no other Church of Christ but that faction of their owne in a part of Africa They neither could nor did charge the Churches which they condemned with any grosse error in doctrine but confidently affirmed without all ground of truth or likelihood of reason that the Churches planted by the Apostles were vanished out of the world for supply whereof I know not by what miracle their Church forsooth sprung vp vpon a sodaine in that corner of Africa This ridiculous conceit of theirs Austin refuteth by shewing that the Church is to be sought and found in the Scriptures and not in the deuises and dreames of men Let vs not heare saith Austin this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord The Lords bookes are to be had to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both giue credit both of vs obey There let vs seeke the Church there let vs trie our cause And a little after I will not haue the Church shewed me by mens deuises but by the Oracles of God And againe afterward when the hereticks expound the performance of the promise made to Abraham Thy seed shall be as the sand of the sea and as the Starres of heauen as if it had bene fulfilled in Donatus and his companie Austin answereth Reade vs this out of the Law out of the Prophets out of the Psalmes out of the Gospell it selfe out of the Apostles writings reade it and we beleeue it This foundation being laid in the fiue first chapters Austin proceedeth to prooue the vniuersalnesse of continuance of the Church out of the Scriptures out of the old Testament in the three next chapters out of the new in the test So that the argument you speake of beginneth at the sixt chapter the Maior or propositiō is in the first chapters to the sixt the Assumption or Minor in the other that follow But because you leaue those three chapters that shew what the Church should be out of the old Testament I will follow your course and begin at the ninth where Austin sheweth that the Church was to begin at Ierusalem and so to passe into Samaria and from thence to spread it selfe through the whole world To this he bringeth in the Donatists thus answering These things say they we beleeue and confesse that they are fulfilled but afterward the world fell away and onely Donatus companie remained VVhat doth Austin replie Let them reade this to vs saith Austin as they reade of Enoch of Noe of Abraham Isaac and Iacob and of the Tribes which remained the rest rending themselues away and of the twelue Apostles who continued faithfull when all other fell away These examples the Donatists had brought to countenāce their schisme Austin willeth them to prooue their stedfastnesse when all other Churches failed by the same Scriptures which were to beare witnesse of those whom they alledged He goeth forward to refute other arguments of theirs in the chapter following still pressing them with this that they should shew out of the Scriptures that the Church founded by the Apostles was to vanish away and their faction onely to remaine sincere This was his course and indeed what other course could he haue taken The hereticks as before I
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
yeares after Christ found out the true faith and the right way to heauen haue all the rest liued in blindnesse darknesse and errour consequently are you onely they that please God and shall be saued for as I haue prooued before without true and entire faith none can be saued and were then all the rest so many millions your owne forefathers and ancestors many of which were most innocent men and vertuous liuers and some of which shed their bloud for Christs sake were I say all these hated of God did all these perish were they all damned shall all these endure vnspeakable paines in hell for euer O impious cruell and incredible assertion Nay surely I am rather to thinke that you are vnwise who pretending to trauell toward the happie kingdome of heauen and to go to that glorious citie the heauenly Ierusalem wil leaue the beaten street in which all those haue walked that euer heretofore went thither who by miracles sometimes as it were by letters sent from thence haue giuen testimonie to vs that remaine behind that they are safely arriued there You I say are vnwise that will leaue this way and will aduenture the liues not onely of your bodies but of your soules in a path found out of late by your selues neuer tracked before in which whosoeuer haue yet gone God knowes what is become of them sith we neuer had letter of miracle or any other euident token or euer heard any word from them to assure vs that they safely passed that way me thinks I may account you most vnwise men that will aduenture such a precious iewell as your soule is to be transported by such an vncertaine and dangerous way I must needs thinke that sith there is but one right way and that the way of the Catholicke Church is a sure and approued safe way you are very vnaduised who with the aduenture of the irreparable losse of your dearest and peerlesse treasure your soule will leaue this safe and secure way to seeke out a new vncertaine and perillous way I must needs think sith the Catholick Romane Church is as I haue proued the light of the world the rule of faith the pillar sure ground of truth that you leauing it leaue the light and therefore walke in darknesse forsaking it forsake the direct path of true faith and therefore are misled in the mist of incredulitie into the wildernesse of misbeleefe and finally that you hauing thus lost the sure ground of truth do fall into the miry ditch of many absurdities and must needs be drowned in the pit of innumerable errors and erring thus from the way the veritie and the life which is Christ Iesus residing according to his promise in the Catholicke Church must needs vnlesse you wil which I hartily wish returne to the vnitie of the same Church incur your owne perdition death and damnation of body and soule from which sweet Iesus deliuer you and vs all to the honor and perpetuall praise of his holy name Amen A. W. To these idle questions of yours I answer first in generall that we may with reason enough perswade our selues that we haue the true faith and true Churches because we see that the very quintessence of Bellarmines sophistry distilled againe in your limbeck is of no force to purge out or alter such perswasion This appeares in the particulars viewed and examined To which I answer seuerally in a word The doctrine of the true Church we gladly admit and receiue yet not vpon the authoritie thereof but because it is agreeable to the Scriptures If you ask vs then why we are perswaded that we haue true faith we returne you answer that we are therefore so perswaded because we finde that which we beleeue auowed in Scripture and confirmed in our hearts by the witnesse of the holy Ghost Hereupon we conclude as well we may that we are members of the true Church our congregations true Christiā churches For wheras you charge some of vs but craftily forbeare to name them with chalenging to our selues the title of the true Church it is a slaunder of yours and no challenge of ours saue only thus far that we affirme there is no true Church which agreeth not with vs in the fundamentall points of the Gospell But we are far frō appropriating the Church to our congregations as if all true Churches depended vpon vs according to that you teach of your Romish synagogue And whereas you condemne vs for no true Churches because we want the markes of true Churches we say that you take those for markes which are not so as you vnderstand them and farther that euery one of them rightly conceiued is to be found in our seuerall congregations It is one because it holdeth that one meanes of saluation preached by the Apostles euen faith in Iesus Christ without mingling of any workes therewith of the ceremoniall or moral law before or after grace to deserue iustification of congruitie or euerlasting life of condignitie The contrary errors held by your synagogue make and proue it to be no true Church But how foolish is the reason you bring against vs The Protestants Church is not one because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie It hath meanes sufficient viz. the truth of the Scriptures and teaching of the spirit of God Put case it wanted meanes to continue vnitie would it follow thereupon that it is not One Surely no more then that a man is not aliue because he hath not means to keepe himselfe aliue Our Church hath had and by the blessing of God hath many holy men and women whose workes haue giuen and dayly do giue cleare testimonies of their inward graces Indeed we want vnholy legendaries to deuise and publish monstrous lies for miracles by which you haue gotten the aduantage of vs in the conceits of them to whom God hath sent strong delusions that they might beleeue lies But wisedome is iustified of her children though you proud Pharises despise her Our doctrine teacheth nothing but holinesse that we were chosen to be holy that we are freed from our sinnes to the end we might sinne no more that we are washed iustified and sanctified by the bloud of Christ buried with him in baptisme that we might die to sinne raised from sinne to righteousnesse by the power of his resurrection that holines of life is a part of our glorie without which no man shall euer see God that he which saith he is iustified and shewes himselfe to be vnsanctified deceiues his owne soule and is in the state of damnation Onely we neither giue the glorie of our saluation to our selues as if by the power of our freewill without speciall inclination thereof by the holy Ghost we had receiued faith which other men haue refused though they might haue embraced it as well as we for ought God did for or to vs more then for or to them nor looke to merit heauen by the worthinesse of our workes as
be whereby we come to assurance that these bookes are the word of God let it suffice all men that both we and you agree they are so But I pray tell me Are the determinations of the Church any more certaine What ground haue I but the word of some men that the Church hath so determined It is not a matter so agreed vpon betwixt vs as the bookes of Scripture are Out of question the ods is on our side It is doubtfull whether you Romanistes are the Church or no it is out of doubt these bookes are the infallible word of God But you will say the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood as well because they are written in Hebrew and Greeke as also for the kind of writing Are not all the Decrees of your Councels and determinations of your Popes Consistorie written either in Greeke or Latin or in the Italian language in none of which one man among ten thousand hath any skill And is there not as great reason to thinke the Scriptures are rightly translated as your Decrees Decretals and Determinations Especially when as we commonly alledge the interpretations of the ancient Fathers and learned Papists for the auowing of our translations But the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood though a man be skilfull in the tongues And are the Decrees of your Councels so easie that euery man may vnderstād them who knowes the language they are written in Doth not Bellarmine condemne and confute our writers Caluin Chemnitius and other for not vnderstanding the Decrees of your Councell of Trent written in Latine which language they were as skilfull in as himselfe If they be so easie how chance Bishop Catharin and Frier Soto that were both present at the Councell and heard the debating of matters can not agree about the doctrine of it concerning assurance of saluation which as Soto affirmes was the longest and most troublesome disputation of all in the Councell and therefore should haue bene best vnderstood and plainliest deliuered Yet is it so propounded by the holy fathers the authors of it that Catharin saith boldly he foresaw that most men would vnderstand the words of the Decree otherwise then the holy Synod meant them Was there not great contention within these very few yeares betwixt Archbishop Christophor de Capite fontium and many other Diuines about the meanes of transsubstantiating the bread though in his iudgement the Councel of Trent makes manifestly for him I forbeare to say that some points seeme to haue bene craftily set downe of purpose like the oracles of Apollo that which way soeuer they be taken the Church may not seeme to haue erred Neither will I adde that diuerse matters are deliuered by Councels not as points of faith but as probable coniectures which yet may be and are taken by some of your owne learned writers as if they were resolutely determined for certaine truth These things considered I see no sufficient reason why it should not be as fit and safe to learne of the Scripture which is the infallible truth as of any companie of men whatsoeuer But you labour to commend to vs this resting on the authoritie of the Romish Church by some especiall commodities that shall ensue thereupon The first wherof is ease the 2. certaintie of knowledge He shall not need say you to straine his wits in studying c. If ease were not too much delighted in by men of your profession there would not be such swarms of idle Monks Fryers Nuns nonresident Bishops and Priests amongst you But true Christians vnderstand that it was not Gods purpose to prouide so much for their ease by giuing them leaue to beleeue at aduenture hand ouer head whatsoeuer it should please men to enioyne thē but that it is his good pleasure that all men should carefully and painfully exercise themselues night and day in reading and meditating of the Scriptures He is too nice and dainty a professor of religion that is loth to straine his wits to the vttermost in the study of any thing reuealed by God in Scripture What shall I say of him that cals conference and disputation about euen the greatest points of faith and iustification wasting of words in wrangling Nec se magnanimo maledicere sentit Achilli It is strange you should not haue the wit to perceiue that by this censure you condemne Lombard Thomas and all your schoole men yea the Pope and generall councels who are bound to vse such meanes for the finding out of the truth and as Sotus saith did vse them in a long and troublesome disputation yet forsooth neither the one nor the other at least both together cannot erre No man then ought to refuse study or disputation of controuersies in diuinitie because they are troublesome Therefore to mend the matter you adde that they are also vncertaine what can be certain but only reuelation if the true vse of reason can breed nothing but vncertainty How idly and vainly did your schoolemen imploy themselues if all their study and labour must end in vncertainty What vse is there of Councels for finding out of the truth since the helpe to be had of them is debating of matters by reasoning Do we not find in daily experience that as flint and steele stricken together bring forth fire so truth is as it were beaten out by disputation It is reported you make great shewes of desiring a disputation I maruaile to what end If when all comes to all your auditors shall still remaine vncertaine what is true Shall I go yet farther You tell vs the Church cannot erre we beleeue you not you alledge some places of Scripture to proue it to vs we say they proue no such matter what course will you take It is in vaine to dispute of it that is as you say to wast words in wrangling about it For that is but an vncertaine meanes to find-out the truth Haue you not brought matters to a good passe thinke you when you professe that there is no meanes to discern certainlie whether the Church can erre or no but onely to take her own word for it Yea no meanes left to know that she is the Church For if you will againe fly to the Scriptures you run into the former difficulties and end as before in vncertainty Who would haue to do with such vnreasonable men But that you may not seeme to leaue vs in vncertainty you tel vs that we may most certainly be instructed in all particular points of controuersies by onely enquiring and finding out what is holden generally by the Church for truth c. You send vs to the faith of the Church and namely of the Church of Rome Which say we is onely so farre forth to be yeelded vnto as it is agreeable to the Scriptures Neither do we say so onely but Ambrose long before our time hath said the like We are commanded saith
purpose A. D. §. 1. As this one infallible and entire faith is necessary to saluation to all sorts of men as well vnlearned as learned so we must say that almightie God Qui vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire who would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of truth hath for proofe that this of his part is a true will prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith and that the onely cause why any man misseth of the true faith is either because he doth not seeke out and find this rule and meanes or hauing found it he will not vse it and in all points submitting his owne sense selfe opinion and proper iudgement obediently yeeld assent vnto it as the nature of diuine faith and the dutie of euery Christian bindeth him to do This is proued because if Almightie God hath a true will of his part to leade all men to this happie end of eternall saluation as it may be plainly proued that he hath out of Scripture and Fathers he must needs prouide them sufficient meanes by which it may at least be possible for them to attaine that end For we neuer say that God hath a will to do any thing vnlesse he do either absolutely worke the thing or at least prouide meanes sufficient by which it is possible to be done But vnlesse there be such a rule or meanes prouided by which euery one learned and vnlearned may attaine to this one infallible and entire faith of which I haue spoken before there are not sufficient meanes prouided by which it is possible for all men to come to saluation sith as I proued without that faith it is vnpossible for any one to come to saluation Therefore we must needs say that Almightie God hath prouided this rule or meanes by which euery man euen the most vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed in matters of faith A. W. Whether your comparison by which you propound this point be of likenesse or equalitie I see not what agreement the one part can haue with the other But to let that passe because it is of no great moment I am now earnestly to request all men Protestants and Papists who will vouchsafe to reade my answer that they would giue me leaue to examine this treatise by the light of true reason and themselues take a little paines more then ordinary in the vnderstanding of it We are then first of all to remember that the summe of this treatise was propounded by the author himselfe in his preface to this effect That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commendeth to vs is without doubt to be holden for the true faith and that the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commendeth to vs is that faith Now then these two points being proued that which was intended is dispatched and either of these failing the matter is still in question For proofe of the former proposition or sentence he disputeth on this maner That we must needs admit an infallible authoritie in the Catholicke Church by reason whereof euery one must learne of it onely what is the true faith Now he addresseth himselfe to the proofe of this last proposition which as I shewed in my answer to the Preface is the assumption of his second Syllogisme and thus he reasoneth If God haue not prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith vnlesse we admit such an authority then we must needs admit it But God hath not prouided any rule or meanes vnlesse we admit such an authoritie Therefore we must needs admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church The ground of the proposition or maior is this that God will haue all as well vnlearned as learned to be saued Which being vnderstood I answer concerning the consequence of the proposition that it is false I will be as plaine as I can that euery one may vnderstand me If his meaning be that we must admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church because without it there are no sufficient meanes of saluation for euery particular learned and vnlearned man I deny the consequence of his proposition For neither is it necessary to saluation that a man should be infallibly instructed in all points questions doubts of faith and God neuer had any purpose that euery particular man should be affoorded that meanes of saluation I will not spend time nor labor in this point it may be proued sufficiently by this his argument For these means he imagineth of a visible Church alwayes continuing are not such but that before the comming of our Sauiour and since also many thousands haue liued and died which could neuer haue any suspition or thought of such a Church Till it pleased our Sauiour to send his Apostles with a generall commission the knowledge of him was shut vp within the land of Iewry or at the most was heard of but in the countries neare adioyning After the commission giuen it asked some time for the Apostles to disperse themselues ouer the world and in that time many thousands must needs die without the knowledge of our Sauiour Christ But what speake I of the beginnings of the Gospell How many countries are there in which no steps of the Gospell haue bene to which no little sound of it hath come for many hundred yeares Austin sayth that in his time there were many nations to whom the Gospell had not then bene preached yea it was commonly held amongst the auncient writers that the day of iudgement should speedily ensue after the Gospell had bene preached in all the world If you vrge that place of Timothie that God wil haue all men to be saued you shall be answered by one of your owne side that all signifies all kind of men not euery man of euery kind of euery kind many They are called all saith Fulgentius because God saueth them out of euery nation condition age out of euery prouince of euery language So doth Austin expound that text in diuers places though hee bring also some other interpretations but all against the conceits of men that would haue all taken for euery one The like exposition he giueth of that in the Gospell I wil draw all to me All kinds of men in all languages in all ages in all degrees of honor in all diuersities of dispositions and wits in all professions of arts lawful and profitable c. Holkot not the meanest of your school-men maketh this sense of those words God will haue all men to be saued that is saith he God hath made all men capable
of Nice to follow and which they accordingly followed The bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles and the Oracles of the old prophets plainly instruct vs quoth that worthie Emperour what we are to iudge of matters concerning God Therefore laying aside all enemie-like discord let vs debate ad determine the points in question by the testimonies of the Scriptures inspired by God These as we heard before Ierome makes the bounds of the Church within which she must keepe her selfe and Proclus Archbishop of Constantinople confineth faith to the same place Faith saith he must abide within the Euangelicall and Apostolicall bounds Paschasius a Cardinall of your Church as you say many yeares since tied Macedonius the hereticke to the Scriptures equiring him either to shew by euident testimonies of the word of God that we must beleeue in the Church or else to vrge the point no further For as Chrysostome truly affirmeth If there be any thing needfull to be knowen we shall learne it in the Scriptures I mightfil whole sides with testimonies out of the Fathers to this purpose but I let them passe as needlesse especially since your selfe before confessed that the word of God is infallible and therefore in that respect sufficient to be the rule of faith Now to your conclusion The first part of this first conclusion is false in regard of the infallibilitie of Scripture which it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore balkt that matter and deuised an other point concerning our translation to play withall For what is it but trifling when a man leaues the thing in question and busies him selfe about the refuting of that which besides himselfe no man euer dreamed of What English protestant euer affirmed that our translation was infallible that is such as had no error in it or might not be doubted of Or who euer tooke it for the rule of faith You make babies which you beate as you list Against the Scriptures being the rule of faith which we affirme you say nothing Against the infallibilitie of our translation which we grant not to be the rule of faith you discourse at large wherein I intreate the Reader to consider these few things with me That which he speakes in disgrace of our translation makes no more against it then against all other whatsoeuer For neither is any translation the language in which the Scripture was written and no translators euer had any such infallible assistance by the holy Ghost Sure the author of the vulgar Latin translation had not such help as the Hebrew and Greek originals which the translations of all the learned Papists themselues declare Pagnin Vatablus Isidorus Clarius c. As for Gregory Martins cauils they were answered long since by D. Fulke and I maruell that you can name them without blushing seeing neuer a one of you durst vndertake the defence of them for the space of these 23. yeares Nay which is worse you were not ashamed in the second edition of your Rhemish Testament to bleare your blind followers eyes with a table of hereticall corruptions in translating the Scriptures as if you had propounded some new matter whereas they were all taken out of that booke of Martins and had long before bene iustified by D. Fulke without any reply on your parts You demaund how any vnlearned man can be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour our sect our translation doth not erre I answer that there are better meanes of assurance for vnlearned Protestants concerning the truth of our translation then any Papist can haue by your imagined authoritie for your vulgar Latin First it is no slender perswasion to any reasonable man that those places you speake of if not wholy yet for the most part are translated with the same sense in other toungs which they haue in ours as in Spanish French Italian Flemish Dutch Secondly it is a great confirmation of the truth that many of those texts which seeme most to fauor vs are the same in your vulgar and Rhemish editions that they are in ours Thirdly the truth of ours is yet more cleare because euery man may see that in bookes of controuersie betwixt vs our translations are seldome denied by the learned of your side though you condemne our expositions Fourthly who may not easily discerne how much more faithfull our translation of those places all others is then yours seeing we are readie to make triall of it by the originals the learned on your sides being iudges you are afraid of nothing more then to haue yours examined by the Hebrew and Greeke Fiftly in the places you speake of our translations deserue the more credit because we labour to make them plaine for euery mans vnderstanding and shew how they agree with the rest of the booke and chapter wheras your Rhemish Testament is so handled that an English man of good vnderstanding can hardly tell what to make of it for the very words themselues in many places as if you auoided nothing more then plainnesse Sixtly we perswade all men as much as we can to labour for the knowledge of the originall tongues that so they may be able to iudge of our translation you do all you can to keepe men in the mist of ignorance because you are afraid to haue your corruptions discouered Seuenthly though we allow not our ministers such an infinite authoritie as you giue your Cleargie yet we teach that it becoms Christian charitie and modestie neither to suspect a translation where the analogie of faith is kept and the plaine meaning of the holy Ghost not manifestly altered nor to rest vpon priuate conceit against the generall iudgement of the learned without very euident proofe of error These amongst other are reasonable grounds for a Christian to build vpon that he may haue some good assurance of the truth of our translation Now let vs examine yours We must say you admit an infallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point First this is more then neeeds For if that authoritie can assure vs that the translation erreth not in any point needfull to saluation in regard of the sense it may be a sufficient ground for vs to build our faith vpon though it should mistake some words in many points and the sense too in matters of lesse importance Secondly though we do admit such an authoritie in the Church yet may we be farre enough from any such assurance For how shall I be sure that the Church hath so affirmed of this or that translation How shal I know what the Church is A company you say of men vpon earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in al points Is this teaching cōmon to euery one of this company seuerally or only annexed to them all ioyntly when they are together What if all what if the greater part assemble
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
only to the true Church to professe one and the same faith c. But to be one is to professe one and the same faith c. Therefore to be one is a propertie belonging onely to the true Church I denie your maior professing one and the same faith is not proper onely to the Church but common to it with some false Churches which haue for a long time continued in one and the same heresie as the Mahometans aboue a thousand yeares the Arians aboue 1200. Secondly if this marke be proper to the Church onely then as long as heretickes continue in one and the same heresie I may conclude that they are a true Church But to make your proposition true you must say instead of one and the same faith one and the same true faith which is the marke we set vp to know the true Church by and the reason why the Church is said to be one There are saith Theodoret infinite and innumerable Churches in the Isles and in the Continent but generally all of them are made one by their agreement in true doctrine The Church is said to be one saith Ferus because of the vnitie of faith hope and charitie Your minor also is false vnlesse you adde true to professe one and the same true faith as the place wherō you ground your large exposition might haue taught you For our Sauiour did not pray that his Church might professe one and the same faith at aduenture as if he had not cared what it professed so it alwayes professed the same faith but that it might alwayes professe the true faith which he deliuered to his Apostles and taught by his spirit But indeed that prayer of our Sauiour was not made for any companie of outward professors but onely for those and particularly for euery one of them that attaine to true faith in him As for the prophane and reprobate what is it lesse then blasphemie to say that our Sauiour prayed that they might be one with him and his Father as they are one especially since in the same chapter hee denieth that he prayeth for the world and namely restraineth his prayer to them who by the ministery of the word beleeue in him that is rest wholy and onely vpon him not onely make profession of beleeuing the Gospell which is enough without any inward grace to make any man a member of your true Church Thus haue I spoken of this marke as you should haue propounded your argumēt according to the course of your disputation Now that I may leaue nothing of any moment vnanswered I will speake to it as it is set downe by your selfe The matter you assay to proue is that the Church is signified to be one or is one To proue this you alledge foure seuerall places of Scripture The first is this My Doue is one Where by Doue you vnderstand the Church by being one professing one faith c. To this I answer first that it is no good course of disputing to proue a matter in controuersie by a place that is figuratiue and allegoricall because such texts as Thomas saith affoord no certaine arguments yea as Austin saith it is impudencie for a man to expound any allegory to his purpose vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies for the clearing of that which is doubtfull Secondly this interpretation of yours is directly contrarie to Cardinall Bellarmine and by him refuted who makes this Doue to be the soule of a Christian in the state of perfectiō and deliuers it as a certaine ground that those things in the Canticles which are spoken of the Spouse are not necessary to be vnderstood of the Church but may also be expounded of the Virgin Marie or of euery perfect soule Thirdly if we take it to be spoken of the Church as it is generally and as I am perswaded truly expounded yet doth it not signifie any outward companie but the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called to the knowledge and profession of the Gospell euery one of which is in his place and measure that perfect soule whom the spouse of Christ so commendeth Know saith Origen that the Bridegroome is Christ the Bride the Church without spot or wrinkle of which it is written that he might make it glorious c. And Ierome who translated that commentary of Origen saith that the church spoken of in the Canticles cleaueth and is ioyned to Christ aboue the heauens as being made one spirit with him So doth Epiphanius vnderstand the place affirming that the Church is perfect because she hath receiued from God grace and knowledge of our Sauiour Christ by the holy Ghost Bernard no enemy to your Church saith in plaine termes that the spouse is the Church of the elect which is said to be one because all together are the spouse of Iesus Christ one chast virgin The sheepfold our Sauiour speaketh of is the same spouse in respect of the spirituall feeding which the sheepe haue in this life from him or to speake more directly it seemes to be that state of grace into which the shepheard Christ leadeth his sheepe that they may be folded vp and safe frō all spirituall dangers which might destroy them Once that he meanes not an outward profession common to sheepe with goates it may appeare by the whole course of the Chapter before wherein all the sheep of that fold are not only said to be Christs sheepe but also to heare his voyce yea so to heare it that they will not hearken to a stranger His sheepe heare his voyce saith Austin and he cals them by name for he hath their names writen in the booke of life Hereupon saith the Apostle The Lord knoweth who are his This sheepfold then is that estate into which Christ the true Shepheard bringeth his elect by the profession of his truth in the visible Church If any man had rather apply this text to the outward estate of the Churches I will not striue with him so that withall he remember first that in these outward Churches the elect onely are the sheepe one with Christ their shepheard as members of his mystical bodie Secondly that this one sheepfold is not to be considered in regard of the Churches being one in profession but in respect of the Gentiles admitted to haue place in Christs mysticall body as well as the Iewes all difference betwixt people and people being taken away In the next two places the church is cōpared to a bodie note that the comparison is chiefly of particular Churches in respect of the seuerall members thereof because of the mutuall coniunction and helpe which each part hath with other and is to affoord to other So doth Lombard truly expound it so you Glosse so Lyra. If we stretch it farther the chiefe cause why the church is one bodie is assigned by Cardinal Caietan to be the
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
haue noted did not accuse the Catholicks of any error against the foundation whereby they might prooue they had ceased to be of the Church but onely vrged verie absurdly a dreame of their owne that all but they of Donatus part were fallen away What is this to the question betwixt you and vs We shew euidence of Scripture to prooue that there was to be a defection that Antichrist the head of that defection is to be the chiefe gouernour of the Ecclesiasticall state that his seat is to be at Rome yea we manifestly conuince your Apostaticall Church of many and grosse heresies some of them directly ouerthrowing the foundation of our Sauiour Christs mediatorship for the whole punishment of all our sinnes and the loue of God in choosing vs to euerlasting life without respect of any thing on our part wherby we not he make difference of our selues from other that is we prooue that the doctrine of your Church is vtterly false in the maine points of predestination iustification without the true beleefe whereof there can hardly be any true religion because the greatest part of Gods glory which is the end of all religion is ouerthrowne or hidden by such errors as your Church maintaines in these matters of iustification and predestination But to the matter This generall ground of Austins disputation we acknowledge to be good and sound as for that which he addeth and you especially vrge I answer with Austins good leaue that the place he brings prooues not a continuall increase of the Church from time to time but onely that when the Apostle writ there had bene a good growth of the seed of the Gospell as among the Colossians so in the whole world And whereas he doth assay to prooue that there must be an increase of the Gospell till the end of the world because our Sauiour in the Parable saith that the good seed must grow till that time we craue leaue to dissent from him till it be prooued that the Parable is so to be vnderstood and that the Apostle so intended that speech of his For Parables Austin himselfe hath taught vs in this verie question against the Donatists that no man may apply any thing out of a Parable to prooue his purpose by vnlesse he can shew euident and cleare reason for his interpretation But this euidence seemes to be wanting in this exposition of the Parable For the scope of the Parable is not to prooue that the Church shall continually increase till the end of the world but to shew that in the outward congregations good and bad shall be alwaies mingled together and so doth Austin himselfe euery where expound the place And surely if from hence we may prooue such a continuall growth of the Church may we not from the same place conclude the like of heresies Let them both grow together vntill the haruest saith the text But what should I make many words about this Parable Our Sauiour himselfe expounds it afterward and makes no such collection of the Churches increase til the worlds end And Ierome willeth vs not to be ouer hastie to gesse at the meaning of the Parable because the expositiō of it in the text is deferred from the 13. verse to the 37. but to wait til our Sauiour giue vs the interpretatiō who hath giuen vs to vnderstand that the good seed are the children of the kingdome not as in the Apostle the Gospel how then are they all one Beside the Parable speaketh not of the outward Church that is of all professors all which are mēbers of your Church if they hold of your Pope but of the true Church indeed the elect of God called the children of the kingdome all the good seed saith our Sauiour are iust men and shall shine as the Sunne in the kingdome of their Father So shall not all your Church do many of your number by your owne confession being wicked and reprobate neither iust nor to haue any place in heauen But the decay of your owne Popish Church me thinketh should sufficiently refute this conceit The other place alledged to prooue that the propagation of the Gospell must increase till the end of the world is neither rightly vnderstood nor of any force to the matter in question To speake of the latter point in a word Let vs grant that by the end the end of the world is signified What of that Our Sauiour doth not say that the Church shall grow greater and greater till the end of the world but that the Gospell shall be preached in all places before the world haue an end so may it be though after it is once preached for some few yeares it be out of the world for many yeares together and afterward be againe begun and this may befall it oftentimes for all that prophecie Let vs further yeeld that it shall alwaies continue in the world as doubtlesse it shall yet is there not hereupon any such necessitie of this growth to be inferred For it may be preached in all places and yet lose more in one countrie then it getteth in three passing along with a small retinew from one land to another Now for the other point it is apparent that our Sauiour at the least in that former part of the Chapter prophecieth of the destruction of Ierusalem before which saith he the Gospell shall be preached through the whole world The end saith Chrysostome namely the end of Ierusalem And he prooueth that the Gospell was so preached by two places of Scripture the one whereof is that out of the Epistle to the Colossians Of the same opinion is Theophylact and your ordinarie Glosse and Lyra who vndertaketh to shew that the Gospell had bene preached in the three knowne parts of the world Africa Asia and Europe before Ierusalem was destroyed by Titus and Vespasian Iansenius Bishop of Gaunt disputeth the point and concludeth for all Austins authoritie and reasons that it seemeth we are rather to hold with Chrysostome that our Sauiour speaketh of the end of Ierusalem Which saith he is euidently gathered from this that after our Lord had said Then commeth the end he presently addeth when therefore you shall see the abhomination of desolation c. For the bringing in of this signifieth that he obserueth the order of things to come and teacheth what was to be done when the end whereof he spake should come All this part of your discourse to prooue that heresies are not Catholicke either from time or place might verie well haue bene spared For who ever imagined that error was before truth when as it is nothing else but a straying from the truth Yet haue some heresies bene of long continuance as Arianisme for a great while which was also so vniuersall for a time that as Ierome saith the world wondred at it selfe that it was become an Arian But what should I waste time and labour
Catholicke and Apostolicke agree onely to the true Church and sith it is no hard matter for any to see or know which companie of Christians hath these properties as in the next Chapter I shall declare it is also plaine that these foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke being proper to the true Church and apparent enough are good notes or markes by which men may discerne which companie of those which haue the name of Christians and which professe as euerie companie professeth themselues to teach the true doctrine of Christ is indeed the true Church which doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ A. W. Nay rather it hath euidently appeared that neuer an one of these nor all of them together as you vnderstand them are any good markes of the true Church because euerie one of them is such as that either a true Church may be without them or at the least that no ordinarie man is able to iudge which Church hath these properties in it and which hath not Whereupon I may safely conclude that your grand syllogisme in this Chapter which any man may gather out of this last part of it is neither rightly applied to that which you were to prooue as I shewed in the beginning nor true it selfe either for the Maior or Minor as by my answer to it hath bin prooued And wheras you adde in the end that the true Church doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ we haue had too much triall of your weaknesse in iudging and boldnesse in affirming to beleeue this Cuckowes song of yours though you chaunt it ouer neuer so often A. D. CHAP. XVI That the Romane Church is One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke and therefore the true Church A. W. Although the Romane Church were One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke in such sense as you vnderstand these titles yet were it not therefore the true Church because there is neuer an one of these properties except it be holinesse which can be a marke of the Church to no man because no man can iudge of it but may for the nature of it agree to some hereticall assembly A. D. §. 1. Thus farre my discourse hath gone along all in generalities in shewing the necessitie of true faith and that this faith is to be learned of the true Church and that this Church continueth alwaies and is visible as being a visible company of men professing the true faith of Christ partaking his Sacraments and liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastors his substitutes and that whereas diuers companies of men take vpon them the title of this Church whereby same do stand in doubt which companie is the true Church there be certaine markes by which the true Church may be certainly knowne and discerned from all other companies or congregations and finally that these markes be those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke which are certainly knowne to be the properties of the true Church both by the Nicene Creed and also by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A. W. This generall discourse of yours hath bene generally so weak and so little to purpose that you are now as new to begin as you were at the first Shall I runne ouer these particulars here mentioned True faith is necessarie to saluation But not such a faith as you require which must be entire whole and sound in all points so that the misbeleeuing of any one should be damnable 2. This faith is to be learned ordinarily of the ministers of the true Church but not to be taken vpon their credit without any examination of that they deliuer by the word of God 3. There is no such Church and much lesse any such continuance and visibilitie of it as you imagine though it may be said there is one Church because all true Churches agree in the same doctrine of the Gospell as farre as is necessarie to saluation so that none of them ouerthroweth the foundation There are also certaine markes by which true Churches may be discerned from false but those you name as you vnderstand them neither are to be found in euerie true Church and to the vttermost of mans iudgemēt may be in heretical Churches Now whereas you say that those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are certainely knowne to be the properties of the true Church there is no certaine knowledge which are good markes either by the Nicene Creed or by the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures and neither that Creed nor the Fathers do approoue of these for markes of a true Church in such sense as you vrge them A. D. §. 2. Now it will be good to see if we can by these generall grounds conclude which particular company of men is the true Church of Christ a conclusion of exceeding great consequence as touching all matters in controuersie concerning the doctrine of faith as may appeare by the drift of all my former discourse For the framing of which conclusion we shall not need to bring in comparison all the companies or sects of diuers religions that haue bene and are in the world because euerie one can easily discerne of themselues and especially by the helpe of that which hath bene said that neither Turks nor Iewes nor whatsoeuer other infidels can be the true Church of Christ because these neither haue the name of Christians neither do they professe to haue the name of Christ Neither am I now to meddle with heretickes and schismatickes of former ages the which as they haue bin condēned by the generall consent of the Church so in continuance of time they haue bin worne out by the same Church in so much that euen the memorie of them God be thanked seemeth to be perished with them A. W. Out of all doubt if your generall grounds be true it is possible to conclude by them which particular companie or rather companies are true Churches of Christ For neither can the markes of a true Church agree to a false neither are they such as cannot be discerned where they are Of Iewes and Turkes indeed there can be no question but what say you to the Greeke Churches and their Patriarckes who pleade all these points for themselues as well as you do and are able to make as good proofe of their Vnitie Holinesse Catholicknesse and Apostolicknesse Yet are you farre from acknowledging these to be true Churches of Christ because forsooth they will not come vnder the slauish yoake of your Romish Antichrist Concerning the heretickes and schismaticks of former ages I would to God Christian Churches were as free of them as we desire But Sathan who in the beginning of the Gospell laboured p to choake the good seed with his cockle and darnell though for a time he continued in securitie and like a strong man armed at all points possessed his house in peace hauing procured a generall subiection to his eldest sonne Antichrist your Pope yet when in this as it were second birth of
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost
him a pleasure because he had thereby giuen him occasion and oportunitie to manifest his loue to Christ by feeding of his flocke which he had committed to Peter and his successors Now if Basil in Chrysostoms iudgement had not bene one of Peters successors this had bene a poore reason to perswade him that Chrysostome had not done him wrong For then had he not receiued that charge nor discharged that dutie to testifie his loue to Christ since the loue was to be testified by feeding the flocke committed according to that charge of our Sauiour Leo indeed makes the Bishop of Rome Peters successour But he is too partiall a man to be iudge in his owne cause I denie not but that he was auncient and learned and I am perswaded a holy man too but yet there appeare in him euery where apparent marks of ambition for the aduancing of his owne sea which may perhaps be excused by humane frailtie but cannot serue to proue a matter of so great importance Your principall minor is false also that the Pope is Peters successor It was true of the first Bishops of Rome that they were Peters successors in the ministery of the Gospell wherein they laboured faithfully and carefully But this point of succession died long since with the care to discharge that dutie For these last 800 yeares and vpward the Popes generally haue succeeded the first reuealed Antichrist Boniface the third in pride tyrannie idlenes riot and all kind of excesse no way resembling Saint Peter either in truth of doctrine or painfulnesse in preaching That which you adde of I wot not what necessitie lying vpō God to teach the Church all truth and preserue it from erring because he hath enioyned all men to heare it without excepting or doubting is an idle fancy of your own without any likelihood of truth as hath appeared in my former answers But howsoeuer the Pope alone may erre yet in a generall Councell he cannot I heare you say so but I see no proofe of it not indeed any shew of reason for it Whence ariseth this impossibilitie of erring Not from the Pope For no man will flatter him so shamefully saith Alfonsus as to make him beleeue he cannot erre Perhaps then it resteth in the Councell That cannot be neither For Bellarmine tels vs that Councels be they neuer so generall and neuer so lawfully assembled may erre but onely so farre as they follow instructions giuen them by the Pope But the Pope may erre in giuing instructions and how can freedome from erring ensue vpon his instructions if he himselfe were not certainly freed from erring in giuing them And that this power of not erring is wholy from the Pope no way from the Councell it is euident by this that particular Councels are as free from error as generall if they follow the Popes direction or be confirmed by him But this will be yet more euident if we consider the course that is to be held in Popish Councels First the Pope sends his Legates saith Bellarmine instructed concerning the iudgement of the Apostolicke sea that is with knowledge of his mind in all points that shal be handled and that vpon condition that if the Councell iumpe in opinion with the Pope then they may proceed to make decrees if it do not then no decree may be made vntill the Popes pleasure be further knowne Secondly when the Councell is ended certaine of the Cardinals bring the decrees thereof to the Pope and intreate him that it wil please his Holinesse to confirme them which if he like them he doth if not they are vtterly dasht This being the course how can it be imagined that the Pope should be any more exempted from erring with a Councell then without one I graunt he hath better helpes to discerne of the truth if matters be orderly and throughly debated but we looke for an impossibilitie of erring which cannot be conueyed from the Councell to the Pope because it is not in the Councell but so far as they follow the Popes instructions neither can it be imparted to the Councell by the Pope because he hath it not in himselfe alone neither lastly can it be in Councell and Pope together because then neither can be aboue other but all Papists are of opinion that there must needs be a superioritie in the one though they cannot agrtee in whether howsoeuer Bellarmine takes vpon him to determine it I say then it is meerly impossible that any Papist learned or vnlearned should know that the Pope with a Councell or without a Councell cannot erre as well because the thing in it selfe is false as also for that there is no agreement about the point amongst them and therefore the Papists haue no certaine meanes to keepe them in any true vnitie If you will assigne a difference betwixt sects of hereticks and the Romane Church you must say betwixt other sects of heretiks and the Romane Church which is of all other indeed the most hereticall But your difference is nothing worth For many sects of heresies haue at least for a time bin a flocke cleauing to their pastor and holding certaine grounds true or false whereby their Church was to be determined As for vs whom you strike at we haue the most sure bond that may be to tie vs all together euen the truth of God and are in our seuerall Churches people cleauing to our pastors and such must euery true church be where there is a true Pastor without whom how far a company may haue the name of a Church and in what respect I shewed before The testimonies alledged out of Cyprian are not deliuered by him concerning your Romane Church but spoken of himselfe and his flocke and so generally to be applied to all other Churches in like sort Pupianus to whom he writes that epistle charged Cyprian with dispersing the flocke of Christ by his ouer great seueritie against them that had fallen into idolatry in time of persecution Cyprian answers in his owne defence that though some stubburne and disobedient people refusing to shew themselues truly penitent for so grieuous a sinne left his communion and congregation yet the true Church was not thereby scattered but continued stedfastly cleauing to their pastor namely himselfe The chaffe onely as he said before not the wheate can be seuered from the Church for saking their lawfull Pastor without any iust cause The other place also is of particular Bishopricks not of your imagined vniuersall Church as before A. D. §. 5. § II. That the Romane Church onely is holy Secondly I finde that the Protestants congregation is not holy because not onely most of their men be euidently more wicked then men which both in old time and in latter yeares liued in the Romane Church as those can tell which haue seene both and is confessed by Luther himselfe who saith thus Sunt nunc homines magis vindictae cupidi
vpon the answerer whose person in this case I sustaine Besides I bring you the same proofe that Bellarmine bringeth for himselfe that is I say they were all of our Church If it be absurd to do so let your Cardinall learne to dispute better It were long to enter into particulars yet if I had brought the argument I would for shame haue said some what in proofe of it but let it passe as it comes for this once Against whom make you all this discourse to prooue that it is not possible to know certainly who are holy and who are not Surely not against the Protestants who confesse as much If hereupon you conclude that our Church hath had none holy because it hath had none certainly knowne to be holy the Maior of your syllogisme will be false as before viz. That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or anie other certaine way from God hath had no members of it holy and I will answer to your Minor as I did that the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles were members of our Church certainly knowne to be holy by reuelation from God But whereas you say that no man can tell whether himselfe be truely sanctified or no you affoord me proofe of that which before I affirmed that the Apostles were of our Church Prooue your selues saith the Apostle Paule whether you be in the faith examine your selues know ye not your owne selues that Iesus Christ is in you except you be reprobates And how doth the spirit of God beare witnesse to our spirit that we are the children of God if it be not possible to discerne his voice from the delusion of Sathan God hath giuen saith Bernard certaine manifest signes and tokens of saluation that it cannot be doubted but that he is in the number of the elect in whom those signes continue And in an other place whatsoeuer soule among you sath the same man hath at any time felt in the secret of his conscience the spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father let that soule presume that he is loued with a fatherly affection which feeleth himselfe indued with the same spirit which the Sonne had Be confident whosoeuer thou art be confident nothing doubting By the spirit of the Sonne know thou art the daughter of the Father the spouse and sister of the Sonne Do you name Bernard for a principall Saint of your Church and go so directly against his doctrine As for that place of Ecclesiastes what prooueth it but onely that no man can truly iudge whether he be in Gods fauour or no by the outward things of this life or at the most that an ordinarie naturall man can giue no true iudgement of the matter This place saith Alfonsus Salmero no meane Iesuite doth not prooue that which some men draw from it that a man knoweth not the loue of God toward him because it followeth in the text he knoweth not whether he be worthie of hatred But the wicked know that they are most worthie of Gods hatred by reason of their grieuous sins The other place that No man can say his heart is cleane maketh nothing against the point you would disprooue For what though euerie man be tainted with naturall corruption which hath euen the nature of sinne in it may be not haue withall assurance according to his measure of Gods loue in Christ Yet if want of a pure heart be all the hindrance your doctrine teacheth vs that the partie baptised before he fall into some deadly sinne is wholly cleane originall sinne hauing lost in him the nature of sinne But the knowledge of the fauour of God dependeth not vpon the measure of our holinesse but vpon the truth of it Wheresoeuer the spirit of God hath begotten true faith there he hath begun true sanctification which according to his diuine power and pleasure be will in time bring to full perfection As if our Church had bene begun with Luther and not rather with Adam and the world continued in the Patriarches and Prophets and at last shewed most gloriously in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ As long as God hath giuen testimonie of the holinesse of these worthies our Church cannot be said to haue had none certainly knowne to be holy But though we builde not vpon any such ground tel me what it wanted of amiracle that a poore Frier should set himselfe against the Pope and the whole state of your Church and for all the malice persecution of the Pope the Emperor and generally all the estates of these westerne parts as well ciuill as Ecclesiasticall except a Prince or two in Germany conuerted by him continue and grow so many yeares and leaue behind him after a peaceable and godly death so many heires of his doctrine daily increasing and multiplying It is enough that the word of God beareth witnesse to the truth of his doctrine though we haue neither miracle nor reuelation of his holinesse But you would make the world beleeue that he and Caluin attempted to worke miracles If it had bene so it was not to breed an opinion of their holinesse but to auow the truth of their doctrine But to whom can it seeme likely that they which denied that any miracles were to be looked for and taught that Antichrist should come with signes and wonders would go about such a needlesse and doubtfull peece of worke What tell you vs of the Apostata Bolsec or Staphylus who solde themselues to lie for the Popes aduantage At the least name some likely men though partiall and not such knowne enemies and Sycophants I maruell you prooue not this point of holinesse by the examples of your Popes in whose persons holinesse is inuested and from them deriued to all other as honour is in and from temporall Princes If the Popes holinesse be not extraordinarily holy what should a man looke for of inferiour Papists Who would not rather name the Sunne then any starre of the first magnitude or the Moone her selfe to prooue that there is light in the skie But you knew how filthie that fountaine of your holinesse is Well let them go as they are you haue named vs three the ancientest of whom is not yet six hundred yeares old What say you of them First that they were certainly knowne to haue bene professors of that same Religion which was then and is now professed at Rome To whom is this certainly knowne How many of our men haue shewed that the Religion of the Church of Rome is altered in diuers points since Bernards time The Councell of Trent is the pit out of which the religiō of your present Church is digged I referre the Reader for this point to a Treatise lately written by a learned Diuine wherein many particulars to this purpose are deliuered Bernard was indeed a member of the Church of Rome as then it was yet either he dissented from
the doctrine of that Church in the fundamentall points of iustification or rather your Church now is fallen away from the truth in that matter Thou saith Bernard to our Sauiour Christ art made vnto me of God righteousnesse shal I feare lest that one be not sufficient for vs both It is not a shore cloake that cannot couer it will couer both thee and me largely being both a large eternall Iustice As for our righteousnes Bernard altogether as we do acknowledgeth it to be true but vnperfect Our humble righteousnesse if there be any is true perhaps saith he but not pure vnlesse perchance we thinke our selues better then our forefathers who said no lesse truely then humbly all our righteousnesse is as the clouts of a menstruous woman For how can there be pure righteousnesse wheras yet there cannot be fault wanting VVe will not striue greatly with you for Francis or Dominicke though many absurd doctrines which your Church now holds were not in their daies nor before them defined by any Councell nor acknowledged by many of your Diuines To proue that these three were of your Church as it is now you alledge that which is left written of their liues and the religious orders of Monkes and Friers founded by them What is written of them and by whom Doth any man in penning their liues affirme that they held the same things in all points that your Church now holds I trow not But if he do who told him so If he liued in their times he was no prophet to foresee what would be maintained in your Church some hundreds of yeares after his death If he be a late writer what reason haue we to giue credit to him in such a matter farther then he is able to make good that he saith by shewing such an agreement betwixt their doctrine and that which now you teach That they haue left certaine orders behind them we denie not which may serue to proue that they thought it needfull to haue people instructed in the knowledge of the Gospell by preaching and some trained vp of purpose to performe that dutie which was the first end of monasteries But it is no easie matter to shew that your Monkes and Friers are now gouerned according to the rules appointed by them nor any inconuenience for vs to graunt that they were of your opinion touching Frieries and monasteries which are matters far from the foundation of Religion as long as there is no opinion of merit or perfection annexed thereunto The second thing you affirme of them is that they were holy men certainly knowne to be so We are willing in charitie to thinke the best we may and therefore are not hastie to condemne them we know not But this our iudgment is not of certaintie vnlesse we may haue better proofe for it then this you bring Their liues you say and miracles testifie as much But first who shall assure vs that they liued so holily and wrought such miracles Wee must haue certaine knowledge that they were holy men who writ and reported these things ere we can vpon their credit beleeue that they so behaued themselues Secondly put case that their liues were as they are said to haue bene haue you forgotten what you writ a little before It cannot be perfitly knowne of men say you who haue truly a good conscience and an vnfained faith and consequently who be truly saints vnlesse it please God to reueale it by miracle or some other certaine way vnto vs. Thirdly if you thinke to strike it dead by the report of their miracles Biel hath taught vs that they are oftentimes wrought by the diuell or shew made of them by Priests as Lyra saith And Bellarmine resolues that we cannot be assured which be true miracles which false but by the iudgement of the Church Then are we very far from certaine knowledge that these men were holy I meane such knowledge as you speake of that may be a ground of faith to teach vs infallibly which is the true Church by the holinesse of the members thereof But Luther and other of our men confessed them to haue bene saints It had bene plaine dealing to haue said holy men whereas you craftily say saints as if Luther had giuen some approbation of your saints canonized But do Luther and Melanckthon hold them for saints because of their miracles or as a thing certainly knowne to them How could they vnderstand what they were but by report They iudged charitably of them according to the opinion that was of them in the world And for my part I am perswaded of Bernard that he was a man of a sincere heart and true sanctification But for Francis if the report of his fiue wounds be true I will not doubt to affirme that he was either a wretched hypocrite in faining that miracle or a silly ideot to be so abused by the diuell The tale lies thus that this same Saint Francis forsooth should haue in his side hands and feete such wounds as our Sauiour had which continued always green and were made in his bodie by I know not what streames that issued from the Crucifixe from the side hands and feete thereof to his side hands and feete This matter being cunningly caried by this Pope-holy saint a woman saint one Katharine of Sene counterfetted the like and with like successe Afterward euen of late yeares there was the like practise by one Marie a Prioresse in Portugall of Saint Dominicks order who caried the matter very cleanly for a time till it pleased God to discouer her cousinage by meanes of certaine of the Nunnes who thought scorne that she should be a saint rather then they and therefore watched her so narrowly and gaue out such suspicious speeches of her that at last the whole packe of her dissembling was opened and she enioyned fauourable penance of fasting and praying c. There is extant a most abhominable treatise of Saint Francis conformitie to Christ wherein hee is at the least equalled if not preferred before him But because this was none of Francis owne doing let it be as it is the blasphemous sinne of your Church Dominicke was little better then his fellow Francis as his Legend sheweth Vpon these premisses thus weakly proued you bring in two conclusions the former that this holinesse being confessed of those three must needs inferre the like confession of the sanctitie of many other who were also professors of the same Romane faith If their profession had bene the cause of their holinesse then you had not gathered much amisse But their holinesse if the two latter had any arose from their true faith in Christ wrought in them by the holy Ghost the author of that faith But there were many in their times as resolute maintainers of the Romish Religion as they who neuer attained to any such opinion of holinesse and the faith you Romanists now professe is in maine points of
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae