doe now plainely see that Papists are no good Catholikes because they are neither of sound faith nor good life but tell me I pray you who indeed are the true Church and true Catholikes M. All that doe truely and sincerely embrace professe and practise the aforesaid grouÌ„ds of Religion in what Countrey soeuer they liue C. Is the Church of England the true Church M. Yes for it hath the speciall markes of the true Church namely the Word of God sincerely and soundly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred C. The Papists say that there are diuersiities of opinions among vâ— that we cannot agree among our selues and that therefore wee are 〈◊〉 the true Church M. In all substantiall points of Religion we agree both amongst our selues and also with all other sound Protestants in Christendome In other things there haue bin are and will be diuersities of opinions and differences to the worlds end They should first plucke out the beame of their owne eyes for we can truely charge them with greater differences As namely with that sharpe and bloudy contention betweene the Franciscans and the Dominicans and vvith the late bitter contention betweene the Iesuites and the secular Priests wherein the Priests did write as bitterly against the Iesuites and namely against Parsons as euer did any Protestant nay there was neuer any Protestant Writeâ— that did lay such foule odious crimes to their charge as thâ— Priests did And heerein they verified the old Prouerbe When theeues fall by the eares true men come to haue theâ— goods For one dissention that is among vs they haue 〈◊〉 least ten among themselues Doctor Willet in his fourth â—â—ler of Papistry hath set downe at large First the conradictions and diuerse opinions of old Papiâ—â— and new 2. The contradictions of the Iesuites anongst themselâ—â— Thirdly that their stoutest Champion Bellarmine is at â—riance with himselfe shamefully forgetting himselfe sayâ— and vnsaying now of one opinion by and by of anothâ—â— And no maruell Oportet enim mendacem esse memorem A lyer had need to haue a good memory Fourthly he sheweth the repugnances inconueniences and inconsequent opinions which Popish Religion hath in it selfe And thus you see how they charge vs with that wherein themselues are most faulty DIALOGVE 16. C. Are there none among vs that maintaine any strange and new opinions contrary to the grounds of Religion M. If there be any such our Church doth not approue of them but rather censure and punish them C. There be some that professe the former grounds of Religion as we doe and yet say that there is no true Church among vs and therefore will not ioyne with vs in prayers hearing the Word and in the vse of the â—acraments but separate themselues from vs what say you of such M. I say that they are possessed with the spirit of pride and singularity and that in so doing they doe euen deny â—hese Articles of faith the Catholike Church and the Communion of Saints and are such as the Apostle speakes of Ro. â—6 17 Heb. 10.25 39. Master Perkins in his first Vol. pag. 409. â—ls them a schismaticall and vndiscreet company and saith â—â—at they are full of pride thinking themselues to bee full â—hen they are empty to haue all knowledge when they are â—â—norant haue need to be catechized Another saith thus 〈◊〉 them The errour of those men is full of euill yea of blesâ—â—emie who doe in such manner make a departure from this â—hurch as if Christ were quite banished from hence and â—â—at there could be no hope of saluation to those that abide â—â—ere And further he saith that if they cannot finde Christ â—ere they shall finde him no where The errours of these â—â—n you may see in a little Treatise set forth by M. Bernard â—â—led The Separatists Schisme C. I pray shew me some example that they ought not to separate â—â—â—mselues from vs and that they doe sinne in so doing M. In the Church of Corinth the incestuous man was not â—â—nished fornication was lightly regarded yea there were some that euen denied the Resurrection yet S. Paul doth account and call them the Church and Saints hee doth not perswade any to make a separation but doth plainely rebuke them and sheweth how they should punish the euill doer I speake not this to excuse any grosse sinne that raigneth amongst vs for I wish that the same might bee seuerely punished but to shew that where the Word is truely preached and the Sacraments rightly administred as in our Church they are none ought for any cause to separate themselues And that such as doe it doe sinne grieuously I will shew yoâ— by a familiar example A mother conceiueth and bringeth forth a sonne and that with great trauaile and paine Sheâ— traineth him vp to mans estate and that not without great care and labour This sonne at length espying some spot and blemish or some infirmitie in his mother forsaketh her and will not acknowledge her to be his mother what would you now thinke of him C. Surely I should thinke such a one to be a very wicked and vnnaturall sonne M. Euen such are they who for some seeming faults iâ— our Church deny it to be a true Church and doe separatâ— themselues from it whereas this Church hath conceiueâ— them brought them forth and nourished them For if eâ—eâ— they were truely begotten vnto Christ and borne anew iâ— hath been by our Church and our Ministerie by whicâ— likewise they haue been trained vp and brought to thâ—â— knowledge which they haue C. There are many amongst vs that make great profession of Râ—â—â—on but I can see no good workes come from them nay they are 〈◊〉 onely barren in good workes but also liue in some one grosse sinne or 〈◊〉 Are these the true Church and true Catholikes M. Though they liue in the Church yet they are noâ— the Church they are but Hypocrites and shal if they repâ—â—â— not haue the reward of Hypocrites yea it shall bee eâ—â— in the Day of Iudgement for many Papists then for theâ—â— because by their barten and fruitlesse yea wicked 〈◊〉 they haue caused the Name of God his Gospell the true Professors thereof to be euil spoken of Let all therfore that will be accounted the true Church and true Christians be carefull to adorne the doctrine of God our Sauiour in all things and that by a godly conuersation and by doing of good workes C. The name of God be blessed for this our conference whereby I finde my selfe much edified There remaineth yet one thing more which I will demand of you and that is How I may come to know and be assured that I am indeed a member of the true Church and that I shall certainly be saued M. Be diligent to heare the Word of God preached Reade the Scriptures Receiue often the Sacrament Acquaint your selfe throughly with the aforesaid grounds of Religion Ioyne hereunto earnest and hearty prayer Set apart some time for these things specially be carefull to spend the Sabbath herein And to all these things ioyne an holy conuersation indeuouring aboue all things to haue alway a cleere conscience toward God and toward men In doing this you shall at length come to that full assurance whereof S. Paul speaketh namely that you are the child of God and that nothing shall be able to separate you from the loue of God which is in Christ Rom. 8.38 Babylon is falne is falne Reu. 14.8 Praise honour glory and power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the Throne and vnto the Lambe for euermore Amen Reuelation 5.13 FINIS
Trent This concupiscence which the Apostle sometime calleth sinne the holy Synod declareth that the Catholike Church did neuer vnderstand to be called sinne because it is truely properly sinne in the regenerate but because it commeth of sinne and inclineth vnto sinne If any man thinke the contrarie let him be accursed Sess 5. cap. 1. de pecc orig Wherein they both decree against the Apostle himselfe Rom. 7.23 and also they gaine say themselues for if this concupiscence boile out of originall sinne as out of a fountaine and that is damnable it followeth that concupiscence or lust is also sinne before God and doth deserue condemnation They say that in the regenerate it is veniall But this is an vndoubted principle that all sinnes in themselues and their owne nature are mortall And concerning this veniall sinne it was not knowne among the Fathers for 700. yeeres after Christ And thus you see what grosse things they both teach and practise contrary to the Commandements of God whereby it plainely appeareth that Popery cannot bee of God for thus I reason Whatsoeuer religion doth teach things contrary to the Commandements of God is not of God but Poperie doth so and therefore it is not of GOD and so by good consequence Papists cannot be good Catholikes DIALOGVE 13. C. Hitherto you haue shewed that the Papists teach many things contrary to the Creede the Sacraments and the ten Commandements now tell me I pray you whether they teach any thing contrary to the Lords Prayer M. They doe likewise teach practise many things contrarie thereunto I will but onely name some of them The Lords Prayer teacheth vs to call vpon God only They teach and practise prayer to Saints In the first Petition we pray for the hallowing of Gods Name They giue vnto Saints departed that which is proper to God and so dishonour Gods Name In the second petition we pray for the erecting of Gods Kingdome of grace in our hearts and also for the meanes thereof namely the preaching hearing of Gods Word They hinder the comming of Gods Kingdome in reiecting the Word of God and in persecuting such as will preach heare and reade it Contrary to the third petition is their doctrine of free-will Contrary to the fifth petition is their doctrine of satisfaction for sin In the sixth petition we pray for strength to withstand Satan his temptations They teach people to driue away the Diuell with holy-water and such like childish toyes These and other such like things they teach and practise contrary to the Lords Prayâ—r DIALOGVE 14. C. If Popery be so contrary to the grounds of Religion then we may â—ot ioyne with the Papists in their profession M. It is true indeede we must therefore doe as the Lord â—â—de Ieremy Chap. 15.19 Let them returne to thee but reâ—urne not thou to them We may ioyne with them in respect â—f ciuill societie but not in respect of Religion and yet eâ—en then we are to take heed left we be corrupted by them â—r he that toucheth Pitch shall be defiled therewith Some thinke that our Religion and the religion of the present Church of Rome are all one for substance and that they may be vnited but they are grosely deceiued for an vnion of these two Religions can neuer be made more then the vnion of light and darknesse and that because the Church of Rome as hath at large bin shewed hath strooke at the very foundation C. If Poperie bee so contrary to the very grounds of Religion then what is the cause that so many yea of the more wise and learned sort do embrace and cleaue to it M. One speciall cause of it is that because men will not receiue the loue of the Trueth therefore God will send them strong delusion that they should beleeue a lie 2. Thes 2.10 11. A second cause is ignorance of the Scriptures and of the grounds of Religion for if men would well acquaint themselues herewith they should easily see the grossenesse of Poperie A third cause is that Popery is very agreeable and pleasing to mans corrupt nature As for example to be iustified by our good works to haue images to worship God in to liue in ignorance to haue pardons for our sinnes to serue God in outward ceremonies as in choice of meate difference of dayes c. these are things very agreeable pleasing to our corrupt nature and therefore one especiall cause why so many embrace Popery A fourth cause is the tyranny of the Church of Rome whose chiefe meanes to vphold her religion is fire sword for were it not for this many thousands in a few yeers would vtterly renounce Popery A fifth cause why so many especially of the Learned dâ— embrace it is pompe and profit that is ambition and couetousnesse This was that which made the Scribes and Pharises eueâ— against their owne knowledge to withstand Christ and 〈◊〉 Gospell And this makes many learned Papists ro do the like They know no doubt that in some things they erre as it doth appeare by the words of Stephen Gardiner on his death bed The Bishop of Chichester seeing him to be in a desperate case comforteth him with the hope of remission of sinnes by the merits of Christ Gardiner hereunto answereth thus What will you open that gappe now you may speake it to me and to such as are in my case but if you teach it to the people then farewell all meaning our authority pompe and profit by absolutions Masses c. These are the speciall causes why so many embrace Popery C. There is one thing more that I would gladly know concerning the Papists and that is whether a Papist may be saued seeing that Popeâ—ie is so contrary to the grounds of Religion M. You are then to marke what a Papist is A Papist as the Rhemists on Acts 11. Sect. 4. doe describe him is one that cleaueth to the Pope in Religion and is obedient to him in all things Euery one now that is vnder the iurisdictioÌ„ of the Pope is not to be counted a Papist for there are some euen in Italy â—paine c. that hold the Grounds of Religion doe sigh and â—rone vnder the Romish yoke and desire to be free'd from 〈◊〉 yea would reioyce to see it Againe there may be some that for want of knowledge â—nd the meanes thereof are entangled with some points of â—opery but yet they hold the foundation which is CHRIST â—ESVS and looke to be saued by his merits and not by their â—wne or any others Such we account not Papists but the â—â—e Church and children of GOD. But by Papists wee meane such as cleaue fast to the Pope in Religion are in all â—â—ings obedient to him will not be reclaimed from their erâ—â—urs refuse to heare the Word of God to read the Scripâ—â—res or any other good bookes Of such we may boldly say â—â—t if they thus continue to the end they cannot be saued DIALOGVE 15. C. I
A PILL TO PVRGE OVT POPERIE OR A Catechisme for Romish Catholikes Shewing that Popery is contrarie to the grounds of the Catholike RELIGION and that therefore Papists cannot be good CATHOLIKES LONDON â—rinted for Beniamin Fisher and are to be sold at his shop in Pater-noster Row at the Signe of the Talbot 1623. A PILL TO PVRGE OVT POPERIE OR A Catechisme for Romish Catholikes Shewing that Popery is contrarie to the grounds of the Catholike Religion and that therefore Papists cannot be good CATHOLIKES The Speakers A weake Christian A Minister DIALOGVE I. Christian AMong the diuersities of opinions that are in the world how may I know which is the truth whereto J must cleaue and who are the true Church and true Catholikes Minister a 1. Ioh. 4.1 Beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine which men bragging of the Spirit doe teach but try them whether they be of God or no b 1. Thes 5.21 Examine all things hold fast that which is good C. Whereby shall I try them M. By the Scriptures Ioh. 5.39 Act. 17.11 C. I am vnlearned and the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood M. There are indeed many things in them hard to bee vnderstood 2. Pet. 3.16 but such things as are necessarie to be knowne of all to saluation are plainely set downe Prou. 8.9 The meaning of which place is this The Word of God in points necessarie to saluation is easie vnto all that haue a desire vnto it Turne to the places of Scripture added to euery answere of the Catechisme and you shall finde this to be most true C. Is there no other way and meanes whereby to try and know the truth and the true professors thereof M. Yes it may be done euen by the aforesaid grounds of Religion Whatsoeuer doctrine is agreeable thereunto is true and to be receiued but whatsoeuer is contrary to the same is false and to be reiected As many as do sincerely and soundly imbrace professe and practise the same they are the Catholike Church that is parts and members of the Catholike Church and true Catholikes indeed But such as teach professe and practise things contrary thereunto are not the true Church nor true Catholikes C. The Papists say that they onely are the true Church and true Catholikes and that we are not M. So the Iewes cryed a Ieremy 7.4 The Temple of the Lord b Ioh. 8.33 41. We are the seed of Abraham the children of God But Christ told them they were the children of the diuell Joh. 8.44 C. Are not the Papists then good Catholikes M. No but rather grosse Heretikes C. What is an Hereticke M. One that doth erre in any fundamentall point of Christian Religion and doth obstinately teach maintaine and defend the same C. Doe the Papists erre in the fundamentall points of Religion M. They doe teach and maintaine many false opinion against the very grounds of Religion as by and by shall be shewed in many particulars C. Are all Papists then Hereticks M. No for there are no doubt many of them that doe erre of simplicitie and ignorance and which would bee brought from their errours if they had the meanes namely the Scriptures in their owne language preaching catechizing and the like We doe not therefore account them all Hereticks but onely those before mentioned C. How doe you proue that they are not good Catholicks M. I proue it thus They are good Catholicks which are of sound faith and good life Aug. lib. quaest in Mat. Chap. 11. but Papists are neither of sound faith nor good life therefore they are no good Catholikes C. How doe you proue that they are not of sound faith M. Euen by the Apostles Creed which may serue in stead of a rule whereunto the faith of all men ought to agree contrary whereunto they teach many things C. Shew me wherein M. The Creed is a confession of faith containing the summe of the Gospell and of such things as are necessary to be beleeued of all that will be saued They haue deuised many other new Articles of faith besides and contrary to the Articles of the Apostles Creed which they hold necessarily to be beleeued of all that will be saued As namely Indulgences and a treasurie of Saints merits the reall presence the Popes Supremacie Purgatorie and such like In the Councell of Trent the curse Anathema is pronounced vpon all such as deny these or any of them Master Perkins first Vol. page 621. The Creed teacheth what euery one in particular is to know and beleeue and a true faith cannot stand without certaine knowledge The Papists maintaine an implitite or an ignorant faith namely that it is enough to beleeue as the Church beleeueth though they know not what the Church is nor what the Church beleeueth And â—hey commend this faith by the example of an old deuout â—ther a Colliar who being tempted of the Diuell and asked how he beleeued answered That hee beleeued as the Church beleeued being asked againe how the Church beleeued he answered As I beleeue whereupon the Diuell as they say was faine to depart C. It should seeme it was but a simple Diuell for if hee had beene wise he would haue asked him this question What if the Church beleeue that thou art a foole what would the Colliar thinke you haue answered then M. I thinke he would haue said nothing for if he should haue said I beleeue so too the diuell might then haue begged him for a foole indeed And yet such fooles are the simple and ignorant Papists which content themselues with this kinde of faith for thus one may reason with them You are to beleeue as the Church beleeueth but the Church beleeues that you are fooles therefore you are to beleeue so too This their implicite faith euery one of himselfe may haue The diuels in some sence may bee said to haue a better faith then this for they know what is contained in the Scriptures and beleeue it to be true Mat. 4.6 Jam. 2.19 This fond and ridiculous kind of faith is a notable meanes to muzzle people in blindnesse superstition and perpetuall ignorance Againe faith is a certaine and true perswasion of the heart whereby wee are perswaded and in some measure assured of the forgiuenesse of our sinnes and eternall saluation The Papists say It is presumption to bee assured of saluation and will haue men to doubt thereof the which is contrary to the nature of true faith They call the certaintie of remission of sinnes a faithlesse perswasion and the faith of diuels not of Apostles Concil Trid. Sess 6. cap. 9.12 13. Rhemists Annot. 1. Cor. 9. Sect. 9. DIALOGVE 2. C. Shew me I pray you what things in particular they teach câ—â—rary to any Article of the Creed M. I could shew you many but I feare that then I should be tedious to you I will therefore set downe onely the chiefest In the second third Article is described and set forth vnto vs
satisfaction for their sinnes M. The satisfaction which they maintained was an ecclesiasticall and publike mulct or penalty imposed vpon notorious offenders thereby to testifie their repentance and to satisfie the Church whom they had offended Perkins 1. V. 577 c 2 vol. 165. 2 D. 166. The efficient causâ— of our iustification is God alone It is God onely that forgiueth our sinnes Esa 43.25 Mar. 2.7 Ro. 8.33 They teach that the Pope can forgiue sinnes and we know that he giues pardons not only for the time past but also for the time to come yea they teach that priests haue right to remit sinnes and they alleadge these places to proue it Math. 16.19 Ioh. 20.23 Now we are to note this that as none can forgiue a debt but the party to whom the debt is due so none can forgiue sinnes but God onely against whom the sinne is committed Ps 51.4 The power of binding and loosing committed to the Apostles Ministers of the Word is by declaring the will and pleasure of GOD out of his Word both to pronounce forgiuenes of sinnes to all that are truely penitent and the retayning of them to the impenitent The Pope and his Clergie are neuer able to proue themselues to bee the true Ministers of Christ and they cannot so much as challenge this latter authoritie and power to themselues much lesse the former which is proper to God onely The motiue or impulsiue cause which moued God to iustifie vs was not any thing in vs but onely the grace of God that is the free good will and pleasure of God Rom. 3.24 Eph. 2.8 Tit. 3.5 7. They teach that wee are not iustified by grace onely but by workes also that is by the merit of our works And to this end they haue of late yeeres deuised a first second Iustification The first is when a sinner of an euill man is made a good man and this they say commeth onely of Gods mercy by the merit of Christ The second is when one of a good or iust man is made better and more iust and this proceedeth from workes But we are to know that there are not two kinds of iustification a first and second but one and the same iustification considered in different respects In respect of Gods actuall acceptation of a mans person iustification is absolute but in respect of the actuall application and manifestation of Gods acceptation vnto a mans conscience iustification is by parts and degrees M. Scudder on the Lords Prayer pag. 303. to 309. And further we are to note that the Papists second iustification is no other then sanctification which is an effect fruit of iustification the which is imperfect not able to iustifie vs before God The materiall cause of our iustification is the actiue and passiue righteousnesse and obedience of Iesus Christ his inherent holinesse his fulfilling of the Law his death sacrifice and full satisfaction The formall cause or the forme of iustification is the righteousnesse of Christ imputed of God vnto vs Rom. 5.19 Rom. 4 5 6 7 8. 1. Cor. 1.30 2. Cor. 5.19 21. Phil. 3.9 The Papists deride this doctrine that Men are iustified by the imputation of the righteousnesse of Christ which righteousnesse is not in vs but in Christ The Rhemists call it a new no-iustice a phantasticall apprehension of that which is not Rhem. on Ro. 3. Sect 7. They hold them accursed that so affirme and teach And they teach that the onely formall cause of our iustificaâ—ion is the iustice of God whereby wee are not reputed and â—ccounted iust but are made iust indeed and this iustice is â—hat which euery man hath within himselfe and is inherent â—n him Concil Trid. Sess 6. can 10 11. Rhem. on Phil. cha 3. Sect. 3. â—he instrumentall cause of iustification on our part is a true â—nd liuely faith whereby wee receiue and apply vnto our selues the mercy of God Christ Iesus and all his benefits resting vpon him alone for saluation They teach that faith doth not iustifie as an instrument in apprehending the righteousnesse of Christ but as a proper and true cause it actually iustifieth by the dignity worthinesse and meritorious worke thereof Bellar. l. 1. de iustificat cap. 17. They teach also that faith is not the onely cause of our iustification but that there are other also as hope charity almes-deeds and other vertues yea they say that workes are more principall then faith in the matter of iustification and pronounce him accursed that shall say a man is iustified onely by faith Rhem. on Rom. 8. Sect. 6. and on Iâ—m 2. Sect. 7. Bellar. l. 1 de iustif c. 13. Concil Trid. Sess 6 Can. 9. These and other such like things they teach contrary to the doctrine of iustification which is a maine ground of Religion And if there were no more points of difference betweene vs these were sufficient to keepe vs from vniting of our Religions for heereby the Church of Rome doth raze the very foundation C. You said before that we are iustified freely I would know how this can be if we be iustified by the righteousnes and for the merit of Christ M. Because the Decree of God the Father for our Redemption is free and we pay nothing againe to God of our owne And therefore by the word freely our merits are excluded but not Christs By which it appeareth that in respect of our selues we are iustified freely of Gods meere mercy and grace without any respect of our owne righteousneâ— or worthinesse but yet through Christ and for his righteouâ—nesse and obedience imputed to vs both which are signifieâ— by the Apostle Rom. 3.23 24. C. Shew me I pray you what is meant by Merit what the dectâ—â— of the Papists is concerning merit and whether that our workes be mâ—â—â—orious or no. M. By Merit wee vnderstand any thing or any workeâ— whereby Gods fauour and life euerlasting is procured 〈◊〉 that for the dignitie and excellency of the worke or thiâ— done Now the true merit whereby wee looke to attaine the fauour of God and life euerlasting is to be found in the person of Christ alone in whom God is well pleased The Papists make two kindes of merit the merit of the person and the merit of the worke The merit of the person is as they say a dignitie in the person whereby it is worthy of life euerlasting The merit of the worke is a dignitie or excellency in the worke whereby it is made fit and inabled to deserue life euerlasting for the doer of the worke See Rhem. on Rom. 8. Sect. 5. We now doe renounce our owne personall merits and all merit of our owne workes and rely onely vpon the merits of Christ and we hold that no workes of ours can merit That no man by any workes of his can merit may bee proued by the properties and conditions that must bee in a worke meritorious and they are fiue First the worke must be absolutely perfect