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A30942 The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion. Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687. 1654 (1654) Wing B794; ESTC R23641 73,761 196

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the Magistrate So did mady zealous Preachers contend against sports on the Lords day tolerated once and so do some still contend against Usury tolerated yet And for Forms and Discipline the Old way you know was preached down when the Laws and Magistrates did endeavour to uphold it These preachers I cannot defend but would say something for them if it had been a Form tolerated only and not establisht For we look upon a Form tolerated as a thing not approved by the State but winked at for a time and dispenst with to content a party or side A Form tolerated is at most but for triall and so long as it is put to the triall it may be contended against not by force but by argument and disswasion Nor is this to oppose the State or cross their Intention for til they declare their Mind it is presumption in a private man to intrude into their Counsells And therefore while things are under Consultation as now it cannot be justly called opposition of the Magistrate if one dispute in a familiar letter against that which they tolerate Nay the liberty of familiar letters you know is of greater extent For my part there is none gives more to the Magistrate in matters of Religion that I do none is more ready to submit to laws in all things not cleerly contrary to the Highest Law And for the present Toleration although I think I may safely take the liberty is not this also a part of the Toleration to discourse of such matters either by letter or otherwise yet I will obey your Advice as I said and I cannot chuse but commend your Moderation in not judging any man scandalous for not being of your Form Though out of Form I am really Sir your Servant in Christ Another to the same not long aster GOod Sir Having not the leasure at present to attend you at Stow I send my letter to to salute you and your good company I have considered upon your Argument yesterday taking advantage from the rubric in our Service-Book That Catechizing and Confirmation must go before the Sacrament of of the Lords Supper Therefore your New Covenant The Antecedent is in the rubric after the Form of Confirmation And I cannot defend the former neglect of Confirmation in the Bishop nor any present neglect of Catechizing by any Minister But seeing there is now none of that Confirmation to be had a great want in the Church I think what if the Minister do his part in instructing people in the Catechism and the people not only make Confession of Faith but profess Repentance Charity Obedience nor hath the Minister any assurance no nor just ground of suspicion that they are not sincere shall he not admit them to the Lords Table I would not presume to condemn all the pious and learned Ministers of the Church of England that have administred the Sacrament upon such tearms When we cannot have all done we would we must be content with what can be done as the case standeth Well Confirmation I grant is commanded as convenient and profitable not so necessary but that in case it be wanting the Sacrament may be administred Now to the sequel How your Covenant can serve in place of Confirmation I do not yet understand It consisteth only of the Confession resolution and promise of the Covenanters whereas Confirmation or laying on of hands is an act of the Bishop to certify the person confirmed of Gods favour and gracious goodness towards him and it is joyned with prayer and benediction wherwith the party is thought to be strengthned and encreas'd in grace Your Covenant I grant is somewhat like the Answer in our Catechism where the Catechized undertaketh the Baptismall vow made in his name and promiseth by Gods help to perform it And surely that is done by all that come with us to the Lords Table And approaching to it in the quality of such as repent them truly of all their sins are in charity with their neighbours and intend to lead a new life they do renew their Covenant and in taking the Sacrament have the seal thereof as t is very requisite nor do I yet see how Ministers can refuse to give it Sir shall I be bold in secret to ask you what great deliverance is the ground of your Covenant I doubt of it because upon the late deliverance from the Scotish Invasion all hopes were cut off of reforming this Church according to the pattern of Scotland which unless I am deceived was one end of the Scotish Covenant receiv'd in England I deny not great Deliverances but I take advantage from the Scots Covenant and say that the Friends thereof instead of Deliverance have had a totall overthrow Give me a little light in this and reconcile the Covenants in the religious part of them for I meddle not with temporals That which you said as I take it of peoples having excommunicated themselves by a defection from the Gospel in life and manners which is you say in effect all one as to fall from the Faith must be explaned by you For Apostacy from the Faith and profession of Christ cuts a member off from the Church and Corruption in manners doth but make a diseased member and such a one must be cured gently I remember a Covenant somewhere in Mr. Rogers his ● Treatises a Book Dedicated to King James I would gladly know whether such a one as that might not serve your turn Your Servant C. B. Reader I am tempted by the mention of the Covenant in the former Letter here to insert what seems to have been written about this time Queries of a Christian Brother which he desires may be answered before he enter into the Covenant held forth at Winchoomb 1. WHether it be lawful for any number of people thus to combine without direction of Authority which is wont to be jealous of Meetings lest under pretence of piety somewhat else be intended 2. Whether all that is moral in this Covenant be not conteined in the Prayer of all Communicants the old way to live a godly righteous and sober life and in the profession to repent of former sins and lead a new life 3. Whether all that are Catechized the old way do not take on them as good a Covenant when they answer Yes verily and by Gods help so I will c. 4. What is meant by the corrupt and formal way of worship whereof they are ashamed If the worship established in the Church of England is it not a false and scandalous expression 5. What is meant by all other Godly disciplin if the use of the Keys where have these Covenanters any Commission 6. Whether they can be said to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace that innovate in the Church and divide without cause Queries upon the Covenant at Winchcomb 1652. 1. VVHether it were not much better and more needful for the People to repent their departing from the Vow of
Baptism and from the Orders and Ministry of that Church wherein they were Baptized than to charge the Worship thereof as corrupt when the corruption is only in themselves 2. Whether any People can have enjoyment of all Gods holy Ordinances that have not any Minister among them Ordained after the Apostolical manner 3. Whether Ecclesiastical Power be grounded in the People and not derived from Christ and his Apostles by a succession of Church-men 4. Whether it be not Schism to cast off obedience to the antient Apostolical Government of the Church And to be of these new Congregations to communicate in Schism 5. Whether Schism be not a great crime when as every Christian is bound upon his Salvation to maintain the Unity of the Church 6. Whether any example or pattern of a Congregation without dependence upon some higher Ecclesiastical power can be found in any Age till this last 7. Whether mutual Admonition and all that is good in this Covenant may not be practised keeping our dependence still on the lawful Guides of the Church 8. Whether they can be said to walk humbly and inoffensively toward All that take upon them to condemn the whole Church as corrupt and renounce Communion with all that joyn not in this Covenant Another Letter to Master H. about the same time SIR ALthough I have promised to write no more Letters such as the former wherein it seems you have found some dislike that you will not tell me of nor will I oppose your new Church-State any further than in modesty and charity I may yet having missed of your Company to day and having understood by Mr. Tr. that you have had a report brought you concerning your Orders and Me I desire you not to believe it before you hear me and the like I desire concerning any Report you hear of my Preaching One thing more Whereas I am informed that the last Lords Day you were much in confuting my Interpretation of 1 Cor. 5. 11. and brought consent of Interpreters that no not to eat is not as I understand it spoken of common eating I have here transcribed Diotat's note No not to eat Namely in common course of life shun all manner of voluntary sweet and friendly conversation with him The same shunning of Infidels was not required and therefore you must acknowledge your proof weak They might eat with Infidels Therefore much more with Christians I will trouble you with his note upon v. 4. When ye are He speaks to the Pastors and Conductors of the Church The meaning is Being gathered together in Ecclesiastical judgement having this my Declaration c. Whereby you plainly see your foundation for an Independent Congregation taken away Pray Sir weigh this and if you please the former Letter with the same quietness of mind wherewith I wrote it and return me two lines of Answer that I may know my friendly Office is not lost and take you the same liberty of correcting me who am your Christian Friend No Answer was returned to the former Letters and so there was a Cessation till the next year But in the mean time this following Paper came to my hands supposed to be written by Mr. B. out of a desire to have somewhat done in the way of Reformation by the neighbouring Ministers to take away somewhat from the grievous Criminations Mr. H. and such others usually cast upon them as hinderers of piety and hardeners of the people in their Sins This Paper I believe the pious Reader will take kindly from me intitled A Reformed Congregation 1. WE do in thankfulness acknowledge the great Mercy of God in not giving us up utterly to confusion and desolation but preserving us under any Government wherein Law and Justice is so administred that we may if we be not wanting to our selves lead a quiet and a godly life And we content our selves with the present State not seditiously seeking after changes 2. We do much honour the Church of England wherein we have been Baptized and bred and notwithstanding any small faults in the Constitution and Disciplin or great faults in the late Officers and Governours thereof we insist upon the same Grounds and adhere to the same Church as it was in Queen Elizabeths time defended against the Roman by Jewels Apology and against the Innovators by Hookers Ecclesiastical Politie 3. Yet do we not think all the forms and rites thereof so necessary but that we may as discretion shall require omit them upon occasion and in their stead without coutempt of the former use some that are different and serve well for order and decency in the service of God 4. To rest in any forms and rites whatsoever and to serve God only externally we hold a very imperfect and unacceptable serving of God who requireth chiefly the heart But as God hath made both our Bodies and Souls and Christ hath redeemed Both so do we desire to glorifie Him with Both. And as we would express the power of Godliness in our lives so would we also preserve a decent form of it such as is for edification in our Assemblies 5. The Litury of the Church of England for the substance and main of it we heartily embrace but in the use thereof shall not retain any thing offensive and opposite to the present Government but in all our Religious exercises shall be as careful to shew our due submission to the Magistrate which all good Christians have ever done as our reverence to the Antient Church 6. That Sum of Religion contained in the old Catechism we do especially commend for the education of Children And we shall then think our selves good proficients in Christianity when with the profession of the necessary Articles of Faith and due participation of the Sacraments and frequency of the Word and Prayer we joyn the careful daily practice of Gods moral Law and of those excellent Evangelical precepts of our only Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 7. Difference of opinions in lesser points and matters shall not make a breach in our Charity and Communion with one another Nor shall we for any such difference be alienated so much or estranged from any Christians in the whole world but that we shall be glad to communicate and close with them in all that is good and lawful 8. That we may for the present supply the want of publick Church-Government as well as we can we resolve to put into more diligent practice that command of Christ concerning fraternal Admonition First by one in private then by two or three and lastly by the Church or Congregation or those that represent it And whosoever shall obstinately stand out against the last Admonition with such a one we will have nothing to do but avoid him so far as the Law of Nature and this Nation will permit 9. This our Congregation shall be guided by one or more lawful Ministers assisted with such Officers as our Necessities shall require and the Church by common consent shall elect
prohibere Object We are commanded to separate our selves from the wicked and to come out from amongst thom 2 Cor. 6. 17. Ans We must indeed come out from amongst those that do serve false Gods and separate our selves from the familiar society of wicked persons but other separation was never practised by any Prophet or Apostle or ever meant Immediatly there it follows Touch not the-unclean thing that is Do not joyn with others in their pollutions Ephes 5. 6 7 11. p. 682. This Sacrament saith Mr. Burroughs on Hos 5. 3. is not defiled to the right receivers of it meerly because wicked men are present there but because the Congregation neglects their duty of casting out the wicked from thence whence they discover themselves Particular persons and Communicants come to be defiled in this if they neglect the duty that belongs to them as Christians Matth. 18. 15 16. If thou hast done thy duty to all scandalous persons in the Congregation then the sin be upon the Church thou maist receive the Sacrament with comfort though wicked men be admitted there p. 481. Dr. Ames saith Falsum est iniernas virtutes à nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesia quoad visibilem ejus statum Bellarm enerv Tom. 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. The Apostles at the first gathering of the Church of the new Testament never required any more than the profession of the faith of Christ in fundamentals and that they were willing for the time to come to walk in Gospell rules John Baptist received Publicans and sinners Soldiers Scribes Pharisees when they confessed their sins and desired to be admitted into the faith of him whom John preached See Act. 2. 41 47. Vide Calvin ad Matt. 3. Many a one that may have real grace yet out of bashfulness and because he hath but weak parts may not be able to evidence it to others and others who have greater gifts may carry it away when they are not inwardly wrought upon I suppose therefore those are to be received into Church-Communion which profess the faith of Christ and subject to the rules of the Gospell if they be free from damnable errors and scandalous conversation Mr. Martial on Rom. 12. 4 5. I am verily perswaded that were the union and Communion of the people of God rightly known there is no Saint in any part of the world but where ever he comes might demand upon the profession of his faith and his voluntary subjection to the Gospell his right in the Ordinances hear the Word with them pray with them receive the Sacraments with them Mr. Baxter in the Dedicatory of his Rest YOu know I never conformed to the use of mystical Symbolical Rites my self but only to the determination of Circumstantials necessary in genere and yet I ever loved a godly peaceable Conformist better than a turbulent Non-conformist I yet differ from many in severall Doctrins of greater moment than Baptism c. And yet if I should zealously press my judgment on others and seek to make a party for it and disturb the peace of the Church and separate from my Brethren I should fear lest I should prove a firebrand in hell for being a firebrand in the Church Paulo post Make conscience of the great duty of reproving and exhorting those about you Make not your souls guilty of the oaths ignorance and unworthiness of others by your silence Admonish them lovingly and modestly but be sure you do it and that seriously This is the first step in Discipline Expect not that your Minister should put any from the Sacrament whom you have not thus admonished once and again Punish not before due process Dr. Ham. Pract. Catech. l. 6. s 3. Of preparation for the Sacrament THat every man is infinitely concernd to have his soul always possest with every part of that preparation That he careless oscitancy fatal stupidity of the world in never so much as considering whether they have any of them or no is a most prodigious thing That the time of preparing our selves for the Sacrament which ought to be frequent but how frequent is not defined in Scripture but left to the judgment of the Church is a very fit time for that self examination That till that be done and all and each of those graces Repentance faith c. found sincere in our hearts we ought not to come to that holy Sacrament which yet will not excuse any for not coming because he is not prepar'd but rather aggravate the sin upon him that rather than thus fit himself he will part with so great a treasure The same Authour Of Idolatry s 70. FOr the sign of the Cross used by our Church in Baptism which hath been by some cryed down under the title of Idolatry two things it will not be amiss briefly to have observed 1. That the same ground of zeal or passion that hath incited some men lately to charge it of a breach of the second Commandement hath long since moved one Parker on the Cross of the same spirit to accuse it as à sin against the other nine and to entitle his severall Chapters of the swearing Sabbath-breaking murder adultery stealing fals-witness and at the last of the concupiscence of the Cross as well as the Idolatry of it the reasons being much alike for the whole charge 2. That the signing with the sign of the Cross in that Sacrament is somewhat distant from that which the Papists use and an act of departure from them in King Edwards second Liturgy more than had been in the first Reformation The former custome was to cross the Child at the Church dore when it was brought to Baptism but this of ours as a mark of initiation or reception into Christs flock immediately following Baptism and a kind of tessera or military sign that the person thus consigned into Christ's Militia shall for ever after think himself obliged manfully to fight c. A change made meerly out of compliance with them who were jealous of too great an inclination to Popery and yet now charged with the guilt of that which it was on purpose designed to decline The same Author Of fraternall Admonition pag. 11. THis of Correption saith Gerson is by Christ's precept become our duty whensoever these 6. Conditions do concur 1. That I have a certain knowledge of the brothers sin a suspicion being not ground sufficient for so doing 2. That I use all mildness or mansuetude in admonishing the angry passionate correption being apt rather to provoke than to amend 3. If on consideration I discern not that some other is fitter for that performance than my self i. e. either more familiar with him or els his superiour that may have some authority over him as for a third consideration whether some body els be not more pious or better qualified I shall not put that into the scheme lest the most pious men being also the most humble should by that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉