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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01736	A short treatise against the Donatists of England, whome we call Brownists Wherein, by the answeres vnto certayne writings of theyrs, diuers of their heresies are noted, with sundry fantasticall opinions. By George Giffard, Minister of Gods holy Word in Maldon.	Gifford, George, d. 1620.	1590 (1590)	STC 11869; ESTC S114289	90,151	124

the greatest I sayd ye must shewe that God commaundeth priuate men to set vp discipline As it standeth ye greatly vpon so ye doo apply all your force héerevnto and in verie déede looke to it for if ye be weake in this and can not shewe good warrant all men will sée that your presump ion against the holie ordinance of God is most vile and damnable let vs sée then how this question will be concluded First ye say God in his lawe commaundeth euery one to séeke the place where he putteth his name Christ in the Gospell commaundeth to séeke the kingdome of God and to take his yoake vppon them c. I aunswere that if a man from these places shoulde conclude therefore priuate men are commaunded to preach the word and to administer the Sacraments it were ridiculous and yet ye may as well as to say that therefore they are to reforme to establishe or to set vp the discipline Your next reason is drawne from the nature of discipline in that it is perpetuall Indéed the substance and essentiall forme of discipline are perpetuall and there be circumstances in it which are variable And thus a man may reason there is a discipline giuen by Christ which is not variable therefore the authoritie neglecting it dooth offend and the Church hath wrong where it is not established but to say that therefore méere priuate men are to establish it is without anye good warrant For when any thing is doone that ought not or anye thing let passe which ought to bee doone in the Church and common-wealth and so a perpetuall commaundement of God broken it is no warrant for priuate men to take the matter in hand and to redresse But you say the Church cannot be gouerned by any other lawes or gouernement I am of this minde that there can be no visible established Churches but where there are some rules of Christes discipline obserued As if there be no Pastors or Teachers no flockes no calling nor order for Preaching the word and administring the Sacraments But to say there is defect or want in some parts of discipline or it is in some things corrupted therefore it is no Church that is gouerned thereby is very hereticall Séeing the Gospel preached and imbraced with true and liuely faith giueth the being to a church Yea but true faith saith the Brownist cannot be without obedience I graunt it cannot be the Church of God if it be wholy disobedient or in matters which concerne the grounds of faith and holy doctrine I saye moreouer that one part of this obedience is that priuate men kéepe themselues within the limits of their calling and doe nothing but that which Gods worde dooth warrant them to deale in Neither ought the Church to be without this discipline saye you I assent that so farre as it is perpetuall the Church cannot want any part or haue it corrupted but with iniurie and damage But your meaning extendeth further as appeareth by your words For God say you holdeth them all in the state of enimies which haue not his sonne to raigne ouer them And your marginall note is If they haue not his Scepter of grace they shall haue his Iron mace Indéed if a man could not haue Christ to raigne ouer him nor be in the state of grace vnlesse the discipline be erected that he may be gouerned thereby all priuate men should be warranted by necessitie to set it vp and to establish it if they could no where finde it already erected where to ioyne themselues but haue yée not before against this heresie confessed the truth in your reply vpon the first article by affirming Christes kingdome to extend vnto all such as by true faith apprehend and confesse him howsoeuer they be scattered or wheresoeuer dispersed vpon the face of the earth If yee had not confessed yée must néedes be driuen thereto For yée take it that Brownists are Gods Churche And yet yée haue not established the Discipline If ye replye that yée indeuour and are letted by force which dooth excuse yée before God I answer that the fetters and chaines can no faster binde the handes and féete of Brownists then the handes of priuate men are bound with the bandes of conscience and the feare of God from presuming to take vpon them publike authoritie And let vs sée where that commaundement ye speake of is giuen vnto priuate men as namely that they are willed to come together with promise of direction and protection and authority not onely to establish Christes lawes and ordinances among them but faithfully to gouerne his house yée doo boldly and presumptuously affirme and can shew no one place of Scripture for it Yée say this assemblie before they be planted and established in this order consisteth hetherto but of particular priuate persons none as yet being called to office or function Who then hath called them together Or being all priuate dooth their comming together make them not to be priuate or is not the action of many priuate men assembled as priuate as of one seuerallye by himselfe Did the assembly of Corah his companions any thing helpe the matter Yee will choose Pastors and Elders who shall ordeine them Doo yee euer reade of anye ordeined but by Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors Teachers and Gouernours Was not the power deriued at the first from the extraordinarie Ministers to the Ordinarie If all the Brownists in the land should come together and choose a Minister and ordeine him should it make him anye more a Minister indéede before God then if all the Apprentises in London taking vpon them to choose a Lorde Maior of the Citie and to minister an othe vnto him should make him a Lord Mayor The Quéens Maiestie hath granted no such authority in the Common-wealth to the Apprentises no more hath the Lord God in the Church vnto the Brownists And as it is in the higher matter so is their wicked presumption more detestable But ye procéed and say therefore we may well conclude that God commaundeth his faithfull Seruants being as yet priuate men together to build his Church c. Yée may euen as well conclude as in the rest of all your hereticall conclusions Is it not wofull that men should be drawne into most damnable wayes by such blinde seducers which bring not so much as a shew or colour of warrant out of Gods word to set them a worke in that whereof they chéefely glorye as namely that they will establish Christes lawes and ordinances without altering changing c But ye alledge the examples of the Primitiue Churches for your patterns and warrant which sued not to the Courtes and parlements nor waited vpon Princes pleasures c. What can bee spoken more grossely The holy Apostles were sent by our Sauiour into al the world furnished with authoritie and commission to set vp his kingdome The Pastors and Gouernours ordeined by them receiue the power not onely for themselues but also to conuey ouer

generally stande in England and come after vnto those former articles which conteine your association wherein ye conioyne your selues and enter into couenant with God as ye say to set vp all the ordinances of Christ for I take this to bee the fittest order Your syxt article which now must be first being expressed in these words And now that our forsaking and vtter abandoning these disordered assemblies as they generally stand in England may not seeme strange or offensiue to anye man that will iudge or be iudged by the word of God we alledge and affirme them heinouslie faultie and wilfullie obstinate in these foure principall transgressions To this I answered That Elias did sée outward idolatrie practised and saw none which did mislike and therefore complained of all It was an error but whereas Gods word is imbraced and multitudes abhorre Idolatrie and labour with sorrowfull teares to bee purged from their sinnes it is an intollerable pride and presumption of men to set themselues in Gods iudgement seat and to condemne all of wilfull obstinacie Let it be shewed where euer any led by Gods spirit haue dealt in this sort and especially in charging them most falslie as shall appeare The Brownists HEre you verye vehemently charge vs with vntollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgment seate to be voide of Gods spirite to charge and condemne you most falsely as you say shall appeare How iustly you charge vs with these crimes or discharge your selfe and your assemblies of these present transgessions vpon the scanne of your answeres shall appeare c. G. G. All such as take vpon them to iudge and condemne whole assemblies that professe the Gospell and that with slanderous accusations as you do may right well be charged with intollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate séeing the Scriptures do cleerely warrant it For he that iudgeth one man to be no true Christian which holdeth the place of a brother and laboureth to please God professing the faith soundly in all fundamentall points either for some errors in iudgement or frailties committed in life proudlye aduanceth himselfe into Gods office who alone searcheth the heart and trieth the raines of the children of men What shall we say then of those which condemne whole multitudes amongst whom there be many vnspotted with grose errors and offenses But the ground of your dooing is from hence that such as commit principall transgressions and be wilfullye obstinate in the same the word of God dooth condemne them And then yée say that the assemblies in England be heinously faulty and wilfully obstinate in foure principall transgressions Ye boldly alledge and affirme but ye make proofe neither of the transgressions nor of the wilfull obstinacie Touching the transgressions what meane ye by principall If yée vnderstand great faults and grosse errors and holde withall that there is no faith nor regeneration among those which erre grosely commit great faults ye maintaine heresie which is conuinced by infinit places and examples of the Scriptures The best that euer were did know but in part 1. Cor. 13. The godliest were regenerate but in part Rom. 7. Of the strongest it was said who can tell his errors Psal 19. and in manye things we sinne all Iam. 3. If Noah Abraham Lot Dauid Solomon Samson and other holy men greatly replenished with the holy Ghost and with faithe did sometime fall into great sinnes howe many will be the errors the diuisions the frailties and offenses among the multitude in the church where with the stronger and such as haue the greater knowledge and godlinesse there are heaped vp together multitudes of weake and such as be carnall and but babes in Christ besides hipocrites and countersait brethren If by principall transgressions ye meane onely such as be fundamentall then ye doo most falsely accuse the Church of England which holdeth not any heresie or blasphemie against any one ground or principle of the holy Christian faith Yée must then either mainteine this heresie which is that where the true faith is there can breake foorth no great faults errors and abuses or this absurd manner of spéech which afterward yée vse that all errors and deformities in religion be heresies blasphemies and abhominations or els confesse that with intollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate yée haue taken vpon yée to iudge and condemne whole assemblies which professe the faith of Christ sincerely in all fundamentall points among whom there be many particular persons which study earnestly to please God mourning for their owne sinnes and are like iust Lot 2. Pet. ● vexed and tormented to behold the wickednesse of others And now touching wilfull obstinacie how will yée prooue that to be in all the assemblies and in all members of the assemblies of England If ye say there be apparant transgressions in which they continue and therefore they be wilfully obstinate and so to be vtterly abandoned I answer that your conclusion doth not follow because the continuance in all sorts of errors and offenses in such as professe the faith doth not warrant men vtterly to cast them out as Heathen but where after admonition and conuiction the censure of the Church is despised The rule of discipline giuen by our Sauiour Christ maketh this verye cléere If thy brother sinne against thée tell him of it betwéene him and thée alone If he heare thée thou hast wunne thy brother if he heare thée not take one or two with thee that by the mouth of two or thrée witnesses euery word may be confirmed If he heare not them tell it to the Church if he heare not the Church let him be as an Heathen or as a Publican Math. 18. We sée that priuate members may not vtterly abandon and cast foorth any one brother that is one which professeth the true faith and for his profession hath the place and dignitie of a Christian nor iudge him so wilfully obstinate that he must be accounted as an Heathen vntill the Church haue so iudged and cast him foorth The same orderly course and rule of discipline is to be obserued in admonishing accusing conuincing condemning and vtter abandoning any particuler assembly which hath the dignity of a Christian church and doth offend so gréeuously and shew such obstinacie that it deserueth so heauy a censure In a particular Church there be errors and sinnes I will not saye in many but in all in as much as euery one hath his blindnesse and corruption erreth and sinneth continuallye one waye or other From hence it commeth that of necessitie there be alwaies in the Church diuersities of opinions discord diuision and dissention with many corruptions and abuses For if it be most manifest that the learnedest and godliest that liueth doth carrie with him his errors defects and corruptions what shal we looke for where the multitude is of learned vnlearned strong and weake altogether how innumerable will the frailties and corruptions now among all be

wherevpon it followeth that the vniuersall Church cannot rightly cut off and vtterly abandon anye particular assemblies vnlesse it be for errors abuses which ouerthrow the faith destroy true Christianity The precept of S. Paul in that whervnto we are come let vs procéed by one rule to be like minded Phi. 3. is héer to take place I will now procéed more particularly The church of England euen as it generally standeth in the publike assemblies among al godly Churches which know the faith which she dooth openly professe and maintaine hath the place dignity of a sister They all giue vnto her the right hand of fellowship acknowledging her for a mother in Israel in as much as she hath not béene barren but hath brought foorth many deare children to God and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome Behold then the inordinate dealing and arrogant presumption of you Brownists Yea behold euen the top of your pride against God and man which professing to set vp discipline and glorying that you suffer for it do breake and vtterly abolish the rules thereof giuen by Christ by your vtter forsaking and abandoning all the assemblies in England for let it bee confessed that the errors the sinnes the imperfections the spots and deformities of our Church be many so that she is not in her generall estate so faire as the fairest of her sisters yet hath she héeretofore had and now hath many noble children richlye adorned with heauenly iewels and pretious gifts of learning knowledge faith and godlinesse And howsoeuer the Papists one way and the Brownists another way do aggrauate her crimes with pestilent slaunders yet shall they neuer prooue that either in doctrine or manners she is guilty of any fundamentall crime which separateth from Christ and destroyeth the life and being of a true Church yet you Brownists not obseruing the rule giuen by Christ doo vtterly abandon and cast foorth from their dignitie all our assemblies in England For ye haue condemned al of wilful obstinacy euē to particular members who hath giuen you this authoritie to thrust them out of Gods familie which the whole vniuersall Church cannot rightly doo Who could euer imagine that vnder the pretence of setting vp discipline the diuell should breath such pride into rotten flesh as vtterly to ouerthrow the whole substance of it for whereas all the Churches of Christ in these parts of the world doo know the estate of our Church and be able to discerne the gréeuousnesse of our errors yet doo they all acknowledge and reuerence our assemblies as holye sisters And you Brownists men voide of knowledge and discretion without authoritie without any calling or warrant euen vpon a frantike brauerie and without obseruing any rule giuen by Christ Iesus take vpon ye most presumptuously contrary to the iudgement of the Churches to cast foorth and vtterly to abandon the same What Pope hath dealt more proudly in violating the discipline If there were but this one thing against you it were sufficient to declare your cursed dealing but your furies are many first in your slaunderous accusations which now we come vnto The first principall crime obiected by the Brownists Transgres 1 The Brownists THey worship the true God after a false manner their worship being made of the inuention of man euen of the man of sinne erronious imposed vpon them To this I did answer that our worship is the imbracing of the holy Bible by the doctrine thereof we séeke to beléeue in God to call vpon him and to doo all good workes c. The Brow The first transgression we charge your assemblies with is that you worship God after a false manner your worship being made of the inuention of man euen of the man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon you You answer your worship is the imbracing of the holy Bible Thus begging the question you neither prooue your worship by the Bible nor answer one of the foure apparant reasons which we bring in our article where it is false and contrary to the Bible c. G. G. To the intent that mine answer and your accusation may stand the cléerer to be séene into and the better to be iudged of I draw your words into a syllogisme thus Whatsoeuer assemblies worship the true God after a false manner their worship being made of the inuention of man euen of the man of sinne c. the same are not the true Churches of God But the assemblies as they generally stand in England doo worship the true God after a false manner their worship being made of the inuention of man c. Therefore the assemblies in England be not the true churches of God I did not nor doo not deny the first part of this argument the proposition so that we vnderstand by false maner of worship and the same made of the inuention of man such a false manner as dooth ouerthrow the very ground and foundation of faith and make an vtter seperation from the Lord Iesus Christ Such as the worship is in popery where they teach and doo many things contrary to the principles of faith placing holinesse and the worship of God in their owne inuentions and séeking remission of sinnes and the merite of eternall life in euery beggerly supersticious obseruation and ceremony But if by false manner of worship yée vnderstand euery error fault corruption in matters of religion which though they be euill and to be condemned yet ouerthrow not the faith nor the very essence of Gods true worship but be in circumstances or in parts that may be maimed and yet the life remaine then I deny the proposition as most erronious false and hereticall For king Dauid with the princes the Préests the Leuites and people erred and that grosly contrary to the expresse law of God Numb 7. vers 9. when they carried the Arke vpon a Cart yet were they euen then the true Church of God It was a great offence that in the dayes of some good Kings of Iuda the people sacrificed in the high places but only to the Lord 2. Kings 11. 14. 15. They should by Gods appointment haue doone it at Ierusalem onely yet were they neuerthelesse Gods people The Passouer was a principall part of Gods worship but they kept it not so precisely according to the law of a long time as they did in the 18. yeare of Iosias 2. King 23. 2. Chron. 35. The Preachers at Corinth did very euill in building Timber Straw and Hay vpon the foundation and so did the people which sorted themselues as it were by seuerall companies to follow them But yet because they held Christ the foundation in the true doctrine S. Paul saith their workes should burne they should suffer losse neuerthelesse they themselues should be saued as it were by fier 1. Cor. 3. Now to come vnto the second part of your argument the assumption which is that the Church of England dooth worship the true God after a