Witnesse 2. Or else the name of an Apostle is more largely extended for an instructed Witnesse and sent by the Apostles Phil. 2.25 who yet had that honorary name so Epaphroditus is called the Apostle of the Philippians Judas and Silas are so term'd Titus and others 2 Cor. 8.23 and James the brother of our Lord is call'd an Apostle Gal. 1.19 He was not Jacobus Alphei nor Jacobus Zebedei and therefore none of the twelve and 1 Cor. 15. this James is named as distinct from the twelve for there it is written that Christ appeared to the twelve then to five hundred brethren at once after to James In the first sense no man ever did ever could choose an Apostle for they had an immediate vocation and immediate mission In the last sense there is not a syllable in the Scripture of their Election by the people Perhaps for so it is recorded by Dorotheus that they were of the seventy but when they were advanc'd and authoriz'd to be Apostles that is Bishops in the latter sense the Apostles only elected them and imposed hands on them 3. Hitherto we hear not a word of any Election by the Professing Members to the work of the Ministry let us then come to the third way which was by voices and let us consider whether we can finde it that way It is most true that the Election of the seven Deacons was referr'd to the multitude and to this purpose your text is rightly cited Acts 6.5 But this proves not what you would inferre from it for by this choice the Deacons received not the charge of the Word and Sacraments but a care to see the Saints provided for and the collections and contributions faithfully and uprightly employ'd Hieron ad Evagrium Epiphan 4. Conc. Carth. cap. 4. they were only mensarum viduarum Ministri 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consecrated to a service not to a priest-hood And among you for ought I know the Deacons have no other office than the care of the poor And then I pray what can this place make for the Election of the Presbyters and Ruling Elders by the people Are these no more but Deacons Officers of Tables and Widows That the people should Elect these there was great reason for they were to be Stewards and Dispensers of their Charity and therefore to stay the murmure that might arise of partiality in them and suspicion of any unjust dealing they advised the multitude to choose their own Almoners The Churches treasure was laid at the Apostles feet to be distributed as every one had need they left it Acts. 2. Acts 4. in all likelihood in the hands of converted Jewes to be distributed these regarded the Widows that were Jewes more than the Hellenists this caused the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the murmure To cease this the Apostle bespeaks the multitude to consider Acts 6.1 Ver. 3. Ver. 5. Ver. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fit men for that service They did so and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they chose out seven and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they presented or set out these before the Apostles that 's all It was but a presentation so that it seems as yet it was in the Apostles power to admit or refuse even these But they accepted of their presentation and with prayer laid their hands on them for the Office which was at the highest a dispensation of money and no cure of souls No hurt then can be done to our tenet by this Election since as they who urge it confesse they were not in orders and therefore what hath this example to do for the Professours Election of Presbyters or Ruling Elders Yea but you 'll say the other text you cite Acts 14.23 Acts 14.23 will strike it dead but upon a serious view nothing lesse For thus we reade there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Ordaining them Elders in every Church This word is a participle and must agree with somewhat and if you look before it was Paul and Barnabas the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not to Elect but to Ordain of which more by and by The Ordainers were Apostles Paul and Barnabas the Ordain'd Presbyters here is not so much as a syllable of the people no mention of any act of theirs This then is so plain a perverting of the text that I hope no wise man will ever more object it The truth is the Apostles imposed hands to make Pastours and Prophets in the Churches as they travelled popular Elections they made none For your other texts I shall consider apart because they are not directly to this purpose Thus I hope I have made it appear that there is not any firm ground I had almost said any colour for Election of Presbyters or Ruling Elders by the Professing Members of the Church in the Scriptures Yea but did not then the People choose their Pastour in the primitive ages of the Church To gratifie you I confesse they did but this was after the Apostles dayes and then Scripture must not be urged for it It was not a priviledge that belongs to them of right but out of convenience and was deriv'd from the rules of Christian equity and society Hence it came to passe that the people when their desires were accomplished did quietly receive willingly maintain diligently hear and heartily love their Pastours And could the people have tempered their grief when their desires were cross'd their interest in Electing their Pastour had been better regarded and longer continued But experience of their Schismes Factions Tumults Uproars Murders if they might not have their wills caused both Ancient fathers and Councils to mislike that the people should bear the sway in these Elections and forced Christian Princes if not wholly to exclude them yet greatly to abridge them I could if I pleased give you in a long list of examples of both kinds both of whom when where and how long the custome of their Election continued and by whom and upon what occasions abridg'd But I spare you This in a word when they did Elect it was not by any Scripture-right and at most it was no more than a presentation and it lay in the power of those in Authority to refuse the presented which was sometimes done And the emergent mischiefs took it away which it never could have done had it been a command of God Now that it is possible that such mischiefs may arise and frequently do arise from popular Elections I appeal to your conscience who have been an eye-Witnesse of it in New-England One thing I shall adde more that you I mean your Combinational Churches in Old-England should of all other presse upon us popular Elections makes me wonder since 't is your practice to eject Pastours approved by their people and by the approvers from above to settle other over their Congregations Tell me I pray what vote hath the people in any of these If this be not to break your rule and
time being not taken as it is now with us strictly for one determinate Town as London Bristol c. but for a whole people which enjoyed the priviledges and immunities of that republick as in A hens Lacedaemon Corinth c. and is now at Florence Venice and divers other places A holy Temple you say it is and what of that must it therefore be of necessity a Combinational Church this would shrink your Combination to a small number nay to principium numeri to one alone if you presse the Metaphor too far for St. Paul asks every Christian Know you not that ye are the Temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you If any man defile the Temple of God 1 Cor. 3.16.17 2 Cor. 6 16. him shall God destroy for the Temple of God is holy which Temple ye are You see then out of this Metaphor you cannot conclude a Combination Yea and much lesse out of that which followeth a spiritual house For the house of God is taken for the whole Church nay a National Church Moses was faithful in all his house Heb. 3.2.5 and that I am sure was a National Church Again judgement shall begin at the house of God 1 Pet. 4.17 what shall judgement the judgment of afflictions begin at the Combinational Church only I have hitherto thought it the cup of which all that are of Christs houshold must taste for datum est vobis pati for our Saviours words must be verified Philip. 1.23 Joh. 16.33 In the world you shall have tribulation And to return to this very house of which the Apostle speaks that of the Ephesians over which Timothy was appointed the Bishop St. Paul writes his Epistles to him that in case he tarry long he might know how to behave himself in the house of God which is the Church of the living God which is the ground and pillar of the Truth St. Paul calls the Church indefinitely without addition 1 Tim. 3.15 either of National or Combinational the house of God and who can conceive that the Combinational as put case that of Swansea Ilston c. should be the pillar to hold out or the foundation to support the Truth This is somewhat worse then those of Rome who plead these words for their Church with more colour with more reason and yet we believe them not because they are but a particular Church and why then should we believe you Observe farther the absurdity that would follow upon your collection The Church of God is a house therefore it must be a Combinational Church Possibly it may fall out that a house may consist of two persons only Tota domus duo sunt an old man and an old woman and thus much you confesse when you bring your proof for it when two or three are gather'd together Now say that one of these two trespasse against his brother what will become of Dic Ecclesiae to whom shall the Plaintiff complain where be the witnesses he shall bring with him who shall be judge Do not then use to presse Metaphors too far for they will bring you into inextricable difficulties I shall therefore put you in mind of an old rule Kecker 1. Syst log part 1. c. 4. Similitudo seu parobola adaequetur principali scopo intentioni declarantis atque extra eam non extendatur To which had you had a regard you would never have brought these comparisons of a City a Temple a house to prove your Combinational Church Similitudes do very well in a Pulpit they are of excellent use to illustrate to amplifie a doctrin but they are of little use in the Schools because they prove nothing that is not true without them The position must be true in proper and plain words before it can have any truth at all in the improper and Tropical As for example it must be true that the Minister was not to be debarr'd of his just allowance and maintenance before St. Paul could prove it by that text out of Moses thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the Oxe that treadeth out the Co n. And so you must prove there is a Combinational Church before you produce these allusions to prove it Then indeed I shall give you leave to illustrate your position by them and descant as you please by these excellent Metaphors upon them but not till then For nulla Theologia symbolica est argumentativa and the reason is Chrys in Mat. hom 65. because omne simile est etiam dissimile Whence saith Chrysostome excellently In parabolis non oportet miniâ in singulis verbis curá angi sed cum quid per parabolam Dominus intendat dicimus inde utilitate sumptâ nihil ulterius anxiis cogitationibus investigandum And so as I have shew'd out of your Metaphors is nothing prov'd SECT III. The words of the Letter Of the Provincial Church and its haughty head the Arch-bishop THirdly did not Christs own mouth marvellously condemn the prevailing corruptions of the Provincial Church whereof the chief Prelate or Arch-bishop was the haughty and horrible head which was therefore so much the more absurd and bold head because of its base and blasphemous blindnesse in daring to take up and ascribe to its self such a stile and title as is not communicable to any creature but is proper and peculiar to Christs own sacred person being that besides himself none can be safely said to be an Arch-bishop or chief Shepherd if one of the Eminenst of the Apostles may be believed whose words imply no lesse 1 Pet. 5.4 When the chief Shepherd shall appear ye shall receive an incorruptible crown of glory Who was that Church Minister what was his name or where did he dwell who came once into a capacity to be accounted such a Superlative Counsellour or Comforter as was indued either with ability or authority as to confer a spiritual Crown on any one of the sincere Elders of a Church of Saints which is such a matter as a dying sonne of man should not dare to have much lesse to make any mention of without some measure of amazement in his very soul The Reply Two of your heads I have considered already and now out of your own shop you present me with three more for I never heard any one of them call'd heads before And the first of these is the Arch-bishop about whom you are pleased to open your purse and very liberally to bestow your benevolence presenting him unto me for a haughty a horrible an absurd and a bold head He is haughty that is puff'd up with pride horrible that a man cannot without some amazement approach absurd that acts against reason bold that will attempt any thing I will not deny that it is possible to meet with such an Arch-bishop but then blame the man fly not upon the Office Only before you be over hasty to do it look at home And perhaps you may find that true which hath been
may feed themselves with fancies if they please but it may be well feared that when the Festival and solemnities for the birth life death resurrection ascension of Christ the mission of the Holy Ghost the Trinity and the Lessons and Sermons upon them with the Creed also shall be turned out of the Church 't will not be in the power of weekly Sermons on some head of Religion to keep up the knowledge of Christ in mens hearts A thing it seems observed by the Casuists who use to make the number of those things that are necessario credenda no more then the Festivals of Christ make known to men and how sure a way this is to instill these necessary principles into the heads of the easiest capacity give me leave to assure you upon my own experience For when all I could say would not teach the Article the mention of the day and inculcating why the day was to be kept did with much ease and facility do it I can never therefore sufficiently admire the wisdome of the Church in the institution of these Festivals And yet had this been an institution of the Church Vide sis Zanch. in expos praecep quarti de diebus festis Thes 1.2 3. after she ceased to be a Virgin I should have suspected it But when I finde a Record for the Festivals that concern our Saviour in the best times and that these were observed as Augustine saith semper ubique ab omnibus this so far sways with me that I dare not assent to abolish them It is with dayes as it is with men They are pares in esse naturae Ecclus 33. All equally from the ground the first man an earthen vessel and the best since but sherds of the old pot But in esse morali an imparity there is some are vessels to honour some to dishonour The comparison will hold in times and seasons the periodick motion of the Sunne gives being to them all yet are they not all of equal esteem For some are made holy some common these put among the dayes to number those raised and made high dayes and set above their fellows to a holy purpose Which yet was not done by chance as it falls out in the advancement of men but it was propter opus p ivilegiatum quod Deus in eo fecit some extraordinary beneficial work that God did upon that day this is the formale diei that gives it being and preheminence above another This God would have remembred for this work he would be thanked and praised and to that end he will have some especial time set apart Neither of this is there any doubt when the Authour and Institutor is God But man say some may not usurp upon God and set apart any day of the six appointed for labour to a holy use and thus much you intimate when you call these holy working dayes But of how little strength this is will hence appear To work upon the six dayes the Jews were bound no lesse then we are and yet even then when they were to do all things according to the pattern in the Mount they never thought they should transgresse Gods holy Command though without any expresse precept they set out some dayes to remember his mercies and blesse his Name Upon no other ground did Mordecai institute the Feast of Purim and ordained it to be observed in their generations for ever An anniversary Festival it was to be Esth 9.21 22. 1 Maccab. 7.49 4.54 John 10.22 and yet we finde no precept to warrant it The Encenia or Feast of Dedication of the Temple was no other The ordainer was Judas Maccabaeus a Civil Magistrate the observation required by Law by ordinance and the solemnization continued 165 years And yet notwithstanding the Authour man and the obligation a Command our Saviour himself went up to Jerusalem to observe it I cannot beleeve that our good Lord that did nothing amisse would have honoured the Feast with his presence had the ordinance of man in such a case been displeasing to God To come closer to the point should a man presse these strait-laced men for a Command to keep the Lords day I am sure they could not finde it That it was observed by the Apostles I easily beleeve because upon the first day of the week they brake bread they enjoyned the Collect because even then it is called dies Dominicus Acts 20.7 1 Cor. 16.2 Revel 1.10 But still the difficulty remains quo warranto by what Command is this done where is the precept for it Neither is it possible to remove the scruple but by acknowledging power in the Superiour to appoint a day as for humiliation so for thanksgiving Which because it is done and daily practised by your selves you of all other should not make this objection and if it be sinful not to work the whole six dayes you make men sin when you call men from their work to follow you and hear your Lectures But still being indulgent to your errour if it be an errour you ever set the same Coleworts before us and would make us beleeve it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will-worship and upon the same ground because we have no precept for it But first if it be so in us so also it must be in you because you finde no more precepts for your dayes of thanks and fasts nor yet for your lecturing upon working dayes then we can do for these Secondly you understand not the nature of will-worship as it will appear if you will vouchsafe to read Dr. Hamm. of will-worship Dr. Hammonds Tract of that subject Thirdly what if no precept in Scripture for them which of the Ancients ever taught men in Adiaphorous things to conclude ab authoritate Scripturae negativè The Scripture hath not taught will never teach all those rites and customes in Religion Socrat. Schol. lib. 5. cap. 22. which have been in continual use and practice in the Church Sufficient those Oracles of God are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the end they were ordained to perfect the man of God Other things what if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ordain not The essential parts of Gods worship are there found no man may adde or diminish from it The agends in many things are left to the prudence of the Church who then ordains a right when she ordains nothing contrary to the Word Should you be prest with these queries upon what text or subject a Minister must preach in what method and place or how long time and how often he must pray or preach and the people must hear Sermons and attend holy duties I know you would be to seek for a particular rule in Scripture your answer must be that Christian prudence must guide these actions and angry you would be if any man should fasten upon you will-worship for these or the like because you can produce no expresse text Be not then so hasty to fasten upon
to succeeding ages with more certainty when they are measured out by Hymns 2. This is one reason but this is not the sole for this is done to edifie Men I conceive are then most edified in Religious Worship when their affections are ordered as becomes pious and devout men Now in the World there is not any thing of more power than is a Musical Harmony either by instrument or voice to quicken a heavy spirit to temper a troubled soul to allay that which is too eager to mollifie and soften a hard heart to stay and settle a desperate In a word not any way so forcible to draw forth tears of devotion if the heart be such as can yield them whence Saint Augustine makes this Confession to Saint Ambrose Aug. Conf. l. 9. Quantum flevi in Hymnis canticis Ecclesiae tuae Men may therefore speak their pleasures but let reason be heard to speak and then the songs of Zion will much edifie if not the understanding because as they say they teach not yet they will build up the affections very much which are more requisite in this work or he that doubts of it let him remember Basha's Ministrel that composed his own soul and Davids Harp which allayed Sauls madnesse No art in Divine Worship can be of more use than this in which the minde ought sometimes to be inclined to heavinesse sometimes to a spiritual extasie of joy sometimes raised to a holy zeal and indignation ever carried with such affections as is sutable to the present occasion 3. And yet I do not I dare not say it doth not teach for are there not good instructions in Psalms not many profitable lessons in Anthynms and these by the sweetnesse of melody find the easier entrance and longer entertainment Hear the judgment of the great Basil When the Holy Spirit fore-saw that mankinde is to vertue hardly drawn Basil in Psalm but is propense to what delights it pleased the wisdome of the same Spirit to borrow from Melody that pleasure which being mingled with the heavenly mysteries might by the soft and smooth touch of the eare convey as it were by stealth the treasure of good things into the minde To this purpose were the Harmonious tunes of Psalms devised for us that they who are yet in knowledge but babes might when they think they sing learn Oh the wise conceptions of that heavenly Teacher which hath by his skill found out a way that doing those things wherein we delight we may also learn that wherein we may profit 4. This is the lesson may be learned from the Ditty now from the sweet agreement of these voices and instruments Christians may learn to agree One Harp or Viol out of tune abates the pleasure of the rest and one jarring Christian Couper in Rev. 5.8 and therefore much more many marres the Musick of the whole Church Oh how melodious was the praise of God when it came from men of one heart and of one minde as pleasing then as is the symphony of well tuned instruments Let us then learn from the songs of Zion to come into tune again these discords and harsh sounds God likes not in his service Pliny secundus Ep. lib. 10. 103. citatur a Tertull. Apolog. cap. 2. Euseb l. 2. c. 17. Pallad in Hist Lausiaca 5. Upon these reasons rhe Primitive Christians sung their praises to God In Pontus and Bythinia Pliny writes to Trajan the Emperour that their onely fault was that they met before day to sing Hymns to the honour of Jesus secum invicem I pray mark those words for they speak for the use you mock at of Quiristers for it was secum together and Invicem by turns that is Quire-wise And in Nytria Philo the Jew and he lived in Caius Caligula's time and after him Palladius deliver that they were accustomed in their Temple with Hymns and Psalms to honour God sometimes exalting their voices together and sometimes one part answering another wherein he thought they departed not much from the pattern of Moses and Miriam In Ignatius the first of the Greek Fathers we read of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ignat ad Antioch Concil Laod Can 15. 1 Cor. 14.16 Socrat l. 6. c. 8. and after mention of them in the Councils and what should they be but Quiristers which Saint Paul is also supposed to intend when he asks Hath he a Psalme At Antioch Socrates affirms that Ignatius began the custome of singing of Hymns interchangeably upon a vision of Angels And if Ignatius did not yet one who is of more authority did I mean the Prophet Isaiah for he saw the Lord sitting upon his Throne and above it stood the Seraphims Isa 6.1 2 3. and one cryed to another and said Holy Holy Holy Flavius and Diodorus continued it in the same Church against the Arrians Damasus and Ambrose brought it into the West Vide Hooker Eccl. Pol. lib. ◠Sect. 39. And among the Grecians Basil having brought it into his Church of Neo-Casarea to avoid any thoughts of singularity and novility pleads for his warrant the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Thebes Palestine the Arabians Phenicians Synians Mesopotamians among whom the custome was for his was such to give power to one by him called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Chaunter Basil ad Neo-cas to begin the Anthymne and then the whole Quire came in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These were the songs of Zion which our fore-fathers used and it is and ought to be our grief that they are not heard still For who that hath an Harmonious soul would not sit down and weep to be deprived of that Harmony which the Angels and Saints practice which so many Christian Churches have received before Papistry was thought of so many Ages kept on foot That which entunes the affections that which teacheth us so many good Lessons filleth the minde with comfort and heavenly delight teacheth us to be of one heart one minde and makes the praise of God to be glorious In a word that so fitly accords with the Apostles exhortation Speak to your selves in Psalms and Hymns and spiritual songs making Melody and singing in your hearts unto the Lord would not upon slight or rather indeed no grounds be cast out of the Church And that you or any other doubt the lesse that Psalmodie is no new device but of very ancient institution in the Church David exhorts young man and Maidens old men and children to praise the Name of the Lord. In which even Children were so skilful Psal 138. that they received Christ into Jerusalem with an Hosanna and applyed fitly those words to him Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord. Among us saith Hieron Hieron ad Marcellum Basil in Psal Chrysost Han. 9. in Coloss you may hear Plow-men singing Psalms at the Plow-tail And Basil bids an Artisan sing Psalms in his shop Chrysostome layes this charge upon the parents that
pastore eodem And they note that what we read the Masters of the Assemblies is in the Hebrew Domini Collectionum First I must tell you that in this Text I read nere a word of the Elders Pulpit and therefore cannot conceive that it is here eminently expressed no nor yet necessarily implied neither in that Domini Collectionum may have another sense then you thought of do but read the Prologue to the book of Ecclesiasticus and you may see what it meaneth The Grandfather to Jesus the Son of Syrach was a man of great diligence wisdom among the Hebrews who did not only gather the grave and short sentences of wise men that had been before him but himself also uttered some of his own full of much understanding and wisdome they that gathered these might well be called Domini Collectionum and Junius not to be blamed when he reads Verba sapientum lectissima For every Scribe instructed to the Kingdome of heaven is like unto a man that is an Housholder Matth. 13.52 Isocrat ad Demon which brings forth out of his Treasury things new and old Isocrates likens such a man to the Bee which lights upon every flower and gathers honey or wax from all so saith he it behoves every man who desires instruction to leave unattempted no Authours but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there you have the word from all places to collect together profitable Rules Maxims Apothegms Parables Proverbs Sentences Arguments c. For when all 's done all will be too little to amend the pravity and obliquity of our nature Now where there is this choice made by the wise Hieron in loc then their words will be both stimuli clavi Goades they will be in the side of every slothful man to quicken and prick him forward to any duty pungunt verba non palpant they do not flatter and bring asleep but they rouze and move every resty soul And because that men that are up are of a flitting nature and apt to fall back being too like a deceitful bow Psal 78.57 whose string being drawn up if not well fastned is apt to slip the nock and relapse therefore their words also are like to nails that being driven in deep fasten and hold together what is joyned by them This then I take to be the true meaning of Solomon in this place that when by the Masters of the Collections there is a good choice made then words are of excellent use both against slothfulnesse and recidivation they will goad a Scholar up that he be not dull in and fasten him to that he fall not back from any duty And to that end they were delivered for they be but tradita given or committed to them and given they were by one and the same Shepherd Junius in loc Ambros that is by Christ whose word alone hath been heard in the Church in all ages For that saying of Ambrose is most true Veritas à quocuuque dicitur à Spiritu sancto est profecta He must have Linceus eyes that can finde any countenance in this Text for Lay-Elders or for their Pulpit What is it not possible that no men besides themselves should be Masters of Assemblies none Masters of Collections no wise mens words be goads and nails besides theirs alone shall no men be entrusted by this one Shepherd and the Holy Ghost but they alone this I hope they will not arrogate to themselves and if there may be a partition made as there must be except they will assume to themselves the Monopoly of all wise words I see no necessity either by implication or eminent expression that your Ruling Elders should be the Masters of the Assemblies that the Preacher means And I am sure he could not for in his dayes there were no such heard of And so not finding their Commission in the Old Testament by your direction I will enquire for them and their Pulpit in the New And the first place you send me to is in the first Epistle to Timothy cap. 4. ver 14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery This place I conceive you intended not at all for proof of the Elders Pulpit because no Cart-ropes will be strong enough to hale it that way Only that by it they should have a Commission to transact all the concernments of the City of God and in particular to ordain Church-Officers For I know by the Consistorian Divines it is drawn that way though very violently This is the sole place in Scripture where the Presbytery is named and it seems somewhat strange to me that you should ground and build your foundation of your Lay-Eldership on a place that hath so many sound and sufficient answers as this hath That there was a Presbytery in the Apostolical times I have formerly proved but that it consisted of Lay-Elders it lies upon you to make good before you can derive their Commission from this place Secondly Jerome Primasius Ambrose and Calvin tell us that by Presbytery the function is meant and not the Colledge and then the place will stand you in no stead and that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for Presbyter I could shew you if I list by more than ten testimonies of the Greek Fathers and Councels Thirdly Chrysostome Theodoret Oecumenius Theophilact inform us that Paul by the Presbytery meant the Bishops for a meer Presbyter might not impose hands on a Bishop Neque enim fas erat aut licebat Ambros in loc Calv. institut 4. cap. 3. ut inferior ordinaret majoreme nemo enim tribuit quod non accepit Fourthly Saint Paul himself testifyeth that he laid hands on Timothy which Calvin strongly presseth Lastly granted it must be that Timothy was an Evangelist which function the Presbytery of no particular Church could give him by your tenets This place then being set aside I finde not any other that can carry so much as a colour for the Commission you speak of and that from this they can claim no power I have partly made good here and more fully before and therefore I say the lesse of it One thing only I shall adde that the Latine Fathers expound it abstractly viz. to signifie the Office of Priest-hood that is neglect not the grace of the Presbyterate that is in thee by the imposition of hands and this Erasmus helps by making Presbyterii to depend upon gratiam in regimine reading it thus noli negligere gratiam Presbyterii quae data est per manuum impositionem and such trajections are no new things in Scripture To those places you cite out of the Revelation I have answered before and shewed that they concern not at all your Elders and therefore I shall not need to say any more to them The words of the Letter TO summe up in short the whole summe and substance of what I would shew Untill