the world which how farre it is off can by no meanes be knowne This opinion which ouerthroweth all the former and cleerely sheweth that the Bishops of Rome are not Antichrists is demonstrated by six reasons For we must know that the Holy Ghost in the Scripture hath giuen vs six certaine signes of Antichrists coÌ„ming two going before Antichrist himselfe to wit the preaching of the ghospell in the whole world and the desolation of the Roman Empire two accompanying him to wit the preaching of Henoch and Helias and a most huge manyfest persecution so that publique Holies shall wholie cease two following to wit the destruction of Antichrist after three yeares and a halfe and the end of the world none of which wee see yet extant Wherefore the first demonstration is taken from the first signe going before Antichrist The Scriptures do testifie that the Ghospell is to be preached in the whole world before the last persecution commeth which shal be raised by Antichrist Matth. 24. This Ghospell of the kingdome shal be preached in the whole world in testimony to all nations And that this shal be before Antichrists comming might be proued by that reasoÌ„ because in Antichrists tyme the crueltie of that last persecutioÌ„ shall hinder all publique exercise of True Religion But because the aduersaries admit not this reason and it is no tyme now to deduce it out of her principles let vs proue the same out of the Fathers testimonies Wherefore S. Hilarie cap. 25. in Matth. expounding those wordes This Ghospell of the Kingdome shal be preached in the whole world and then the consumation shall come plainelie teacheth that Antichrist shall not come whom he calleth the Abhomination of Desolation vnles the preaching of the Ghospell in the whole world goeth before The same is expreslie taught by S. Cyrill catechesi 15. Theodoret in 2. Thess 2. S. Damascen lib. 4. cap. 28. and others And besides the same is gathered out of the text for it is said that the Ghospell is to be preached before that greatest and last tribulation commeth what manner of one neither hath ben before nor shal be after By which tribulation that Antichrists persecution is signified the Fathers teach and chieflie S. Augustine lib. 20. de ciuitate Dei cap. 8. 19. And that the Ghospell was not preached in the whole world at that time when the new Samosatenes saie that Antichrist came that is about the yeare of our Lord 200. or 300. is manifest by Origen who Homil. 28. in Matth. affirmeth that in his tyme the Ghospell was not yet preached euerie where Likewise by Ruffinus who lib. 3. hist cap. 9. testifieth that in the tyme of Constantyne the Emperour that is after the yeare of our Lord 3â—0 the Ghospell was preached to the more remote Indians whereas before that tyme they had neuer heard any thing of Christ Finally by S. Augustine who in his 80. epist saith that he had found by most certaine experience that in his tyme there were manie nations which had heard nothing of Christ And that the preaching of the Ghospell was not accoÌ„plished about the yeare 600. or 700. at which tymes the Centuriators Chytraeus Luther and Bullinger put the comming of Antichrist is mâ—nifest bâ— the conuersion of the Vandals Polonians Morauians and the like who as it is well knowne heard not the preaching of the Ghospel vntill after the yeare of Christ 800. as also the Centuriators confesse centur 9. cap. 2. col 15. 18. cent 10. cap. 2. col 18. 19. In like manner that the preaching was not coÌ„plete in the tyme of S. Bernard at which tyme VVolfgangus Musculus putteth the comming of Antichrist is manifest out of S. Bernard himselfe lib. 3. de consider where he affirmeth that yet in his time there were Nations which had not heard the Ghospell Finally that also in our tyme the Ghospell is not preached in the whole world experience teacheth for ther are most vast RegioÌ„s found in the hast West in which there is no memory of the Ghospell Neither can it be said that the Faith was there but was afterward extinguished For at leastwise some signes would remaine either there or in the writings of the Ancients Besides we know that where all the Apostles preached the places were knowne to many if not to all but the new world is now found was not knowne from the Apostles tyme but a little before our age Against this Demonstration there can only one obiection be made to wit because perhapps the Scriptures which say that the Ghospell is to be preached in the whole world speake not simple of the whole world but by the figure of intellection take the whole for a part as Luc. 2. where it is said There went out an Edict from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be described otherwise that will be false which S. Paul saith Rom. 10. euen then in his tyme That the sound of the Apostles was gone forth into all the earth and that which he saith Coloss 1. The Ghospell which is come to yow as it is in the whole world fructifying and increasing And after VVhich is preached to all creatures which are vnder Heauen I answere without doubt not by any figure but properly and simply in the whole world that is in euery NatioÌ„ the Ghospell must be preached and Churches instituted For first so expresly teacheth S. Augustine ep 80. ad Hesychium and the other Fathers alleadged thinke the same and besides Origen and S. Hierome and others in cap. 24. Matth. It may also be proued by three reasons First Christ saith that the preaching in the whole world is a signe of the consuÌ„mation of the world for so he addeth forthwith and then the consummatioÌ„ shall come but if not properly but by Synecdoche the Ghospell were to be preached in the whole world that signe were nothing worth for in that manner the Ghospell was preached in the whole world the first 20. yeares Secondly as S. Augustine reasoneth properly all Nations are promised to Christ Psal 71. All Nations shall serue thee And Christ died generally for all and therfore Apoc. cap. 7. the elected are described out of all Nations and people and tribes and languages VVherfore the preaching also must properly be generall Finally Match 24. it is said that the Ghospell is to be preached in the whole world in testimony to all Nations that is least any Nation in the daie of Iudgement might excuse their infidelity by the pretext of ignorance Wherfore before the generall iudgement the generall preaching must be To those places of S. Paul S. Augustine answereth epist 80. and saith that S. Paul when he saith Rom 10. their sound is gone out into all the earth tooke the tyme past for the tyme to come as Dauid had donne whose wordes those are And when he saith Colloss 1. that the Ghospell is in the whole world he would not say that it is actuallie but vertuallie to wit
because the seed of Gods word had bene cast into the world by the Apostles which fructifying and increasing by little and little was to replenish the whole world as one that had put fire to diuers parts of a Citty might trulie be said to haue set all the Cittie on fire because he had applied the fire which increasing by little and little was to consume the whole Cittie And this verie same signifieth the Apostle when he saith in the whole world it is fructifying and increasing for it had not taken possession wholie of the whole world seeing it was yet more and more spread afterward abroad and yet in a certaine manner it had taken possession that is vertuallie and not actuallie We might also answere with S. Hierome in Matth. 20. S. Thomas in Rom. 10. that the Ghospell came to all in two māners one way by fame another way by peculiar preachers and foundation of Churches and that in the first manner the Ghospell came to all Nations of the whole world then knowne in the tyme of the Apostles and that S. Paul speaketh of this in which sort also S. Chrysostome in Matth. 24. is to be vnderstood But in the second manner that it came not then but is to come in the tyme appointed and that our Lord Matth. 24. Luc. vlt. Act. 1. speaketh of this Adde lastlie that it is not absurd if we graunt that our Lord spake properlie and the Apostle figuratiuelie For the reasons which compell vs to take our Lordes wordes in a proper signification haue not the same force if they be applied to the wordes of S. Paul especiallie seeing our Lord spake of a thing to come and S. Paul of a thing past M. Dovvnams Ansvvere confuted 1. IT pleaseth M. Downam to be a little merrie about these 6. Demonstrations calling them six slender coniectures and thinking Bellarmyne troubled with melancholie for deeming otherwise But I will leaue it to the Readers iudgment if it be not more likely that he is loaden with folly Afterward he iesteth at Bellarmine for making Antichrists death the end of the world which shal be after his death to be two signes of his comming As though all this were not to fall out within 3. or 4. yeares after his comming and consequentlie did not plainelie demonstrate that he came not a 1000. yeares since which is that which Bellarmine goeth about to prooue and so might verie well vse these signes to demonstrate his not comming so long agoe 2. But comming to answere the first demonstration it is wonderfull to see how many wordes he spendeth in vaine and how few to the purpose For he being to answere Bellarmines proofes which I haue alleadged he scarse euer toucheth any of them but maketh a long discourse altogeather friuolous about the expositiō of that whole place Matth. 24. Wherefore I shal be inforced to gather vp heere and there some scattered denialls and so replie to this his broken and confused answere 3. And first to the Fathers which Bellarmine alleadgeth as his chiefest proofe I find only these wordes of his Or to what end saith he should I spend my tyme in answering the Testimonies of the Fathers who supposed that the Ghospell should be preached in all the world before the comming of Antichrist seing according to the meaning of our Sauiour Christ it was to be preached in all the world before the destruction of Ierusalem And is not this a wise answere thinke Downam reiecteth the Fathers you to accuse the Fathers to be against Christ because their doctrine is contrary to M. Downams But I take it few will belieue him vpon his bare word against Bellarmine alone much lesse hauing so manie ancient Fathers ioyned with him 4. Bellarmines other proofe was out of the text because by that great tribulation before which it is said that the Ghospell shal be preached in the whole world the Fathers and in particuler S. Augustine vnderstandeth Antichrists persecution But M. Downam neuer mentioning S. Augustine or other Father flatlie denieth their doctrine in this point as he had done in the former therefore indeed neuer goeth about to answere the argument but to denie the conclusiō whatsoeuer the proofes be 5. Yea that which is worse because he would seeme to say something he beareth the Reader in hand that Bellarmine had bene so simple as to prooue his conclusion only Downam omitteth Bellarmines proofes answereth his owne out of those wordes Matth. 24. This ghospell of the Kingdome shal be preached in the whole world in testimony to all Nations And then he answereth verie grauelie But our Sauiour Christ doth not saie that the Ghospell shal be preached throughout the world before the comming of Antichrist but before the end And is not this to get himselfe out of his Aduersaries reach and then to shew great valour in playing his prize by himselfe alone and beating the ayre 6. Another tricke of M. Downās is to answere an argumēt which Bellarmine thought better for breuities sake to leaue vnproued that is that in Antichrists tyme the cruelty of the last persecution shall hinder all publike exercise of true Religion To which M. Downam answereth That it is not necessary that the Ghospell should be preached generally throughout the world at one tyme for it might suffice that in one age it were preached to one Nation and in another age to another people and so in Antichrists tyme it might be preached to some Nations where it had not bene formerly preached therfore might be preached to all Nations before the destruction of Antichrist though it were not before his comming But Bellarmine neuer affirmed that the Ghospell should be generallie preached throughout the world at one tyme but M. Downam dreameth it And if he would haue said any thing to the purpose he should haue tould vs how the Ghospell can be preached to any Nation when the persecution is so great and generall that all publike exercise of true Religion doth cease in all places throughout the whole world And this is all that he bringeth in answere to the arguments Wherfore only there remayneth that we see whether he proueth his owne exposition in those two pointes in which he is contrary to Bellarmine and the Fathers any better 7. For first he will needes haue the consummatiō of which Matth. 24. our Sauiour speaketh to be the destruction of Ierusalem and not the end of the world but yet neuer answereth to any of those argumēts which Bell. hath in his answere to the obiection three o◠the which namelie the authoritie of the Fathers and the two latter reasons are so manifest that M. Downam Downam dissembleth the difficultie delt very politikely in dissembling them since he could not answere them And to proue his owne expositiō he bringeth a conceited inuentiō of his owne to witt that our Blessed Sauiour would comfort his Disciples by telling them that the successe of their Ministry
with Antichrist which they cannot do without yielding themselues vnto him since it is certayne that he shal be the Moâ—â—â—ch of the whole world and because the Scripture is not so expresse Bellarmine only saith that it may be inferred out of that place as it may likewise out of the 12. and 13. Apoc. as in part hath ben touched And is it not euident inough of it selfe that the little horne which presumed to encounter if not all the 10. yet Apoc. 12. 13. at least three of them while he was so little will not stay there when he is growne great but cause the other 7. to subiect themselues vnto him The other questions and assertions which M. Downam hath are already confuted and therefore not to be repeated now againe Wherefore let vs see what he saith to the testimonies of S. Chrysostome and S. Cyril I answere saith he that for substance these Fathers held the truth for what Monarch hath there byn in the VVest these 5. or 6. hundreth yeares besides the Pope c where I beseech the Reader to Why M. Downam admitteth any of the Fathers marke attentiuely M. Downams reason why he alloweth the testimony of the Fathers which is no other but because they are against the Pope in some sort according to his conceipt for otherwise we may see by that which he answeteth to the 3. former and that which he saith of them all in generall a little before how little he setteth by their authority Now for the Monarchy of the West it is euident The Pope no temporall Monarch that it remaineth in the Emperours and that which he attributeth to the Pope euery child will see how different it is from the Monarchy of the Romans and how small a thing it is if you take away his spirituall authoritie which no doubt is the greatest vpon earth But what is that to the temporall power of which these Fathers speake Now how the Pope is Lord of the whole earth and how he disposeth of the new found world we shall examine at large in the second part and how the gouernment of Rome belongeth not to Antichrist in whose time it shal be destroyed as neither the 2. beast Apoc. 13. nor the 7. head Apoc. 17. to the Pope hath bin already sufficiently declared 15. To the 4. argument M. Downam answereth nothing Antichrist shall persecute the Christians through the whole world with an innumerable army which Bellarmine himself hath not confuted at large in his discourse of Gog and Magog which M. Downam wholy omitteth vnder pretext of not troubling his Reader but indeed because he would not discouer his owne shame for otherwise at least he might haue answered to so much of it as made against himself The like deceipt he vseth in passing ouer Bellarmines answers to the Protestants obiections or arguments wherby they indeauour to proue the Pope Antichrist because he saw that they contayned in effect an answere to his former booke But I may not omit either that so the Reader may iudge how well M. Downam hath cleared them in his former booke of which he seemeth himself to make some doubt by telling vs that the controuersie betwixt vs is not whether euery argument that hath bin produced by euery one doth necessarily conclude the Pope to be Antichrist and that that discourse is rather personall then reall and therfore he letteth it passe THE SEAVENTENTH CHAPTER Of Gog and Magog WHERFORE the first opinion or rather errour saith Bellarmine is of the Iews who teach that Gog is Antichrist Magog innumerable Scythian Nations which lurke within the Caspian Mountaynes and that Antichrist shall come with Magog that is with an Army of Scythians at the same tyme that the Messias shall first appeare in Hierusalem and that there shal be a battaile fought in Palestine and such an ouerthrow in the Army of Gog that for 7. yeares the Iewes shall not cut any wood from trees to make fire withall but shall burne the speares bucklers and other weapons which shal be found with the dead bodyes and that afterward there shall be a golden world c. S. Hierome relateth this opinion in cap. 38. Ezech. and Petrus Galatinus lib. 5. cap. 12. cont Iudaeos and Rabbi Dauid Kimhi in his CoÌ„mentary vpon the Psalmes in many places but the Iewes erre in two things First that they think the battaile of Gog Magog shal be in the first comming of Christ confouÌ„ding the first with the second Wheras notwithstanding the Scriptures plainly teach that Christ in his first coÌ„ming was to come in humility and as a meeke sheep to be sacrificed as it is manifest Isa 53. and in other places Secondly in that they thinke that Antichrist shall come against them and fight with their Messias wheras indeed Antichrist shall be their Messias and shall fight with the Iewes against our Sauiour the true Christ The second opinion is of Lactantius lib. 7. cap. 24. 25. 26. who thinketh that the battaile of Gog and Magog shall be a thousand yeares after the death of Antichrist for he teacheth that after 6000. yeares from the beginning of the world Antichrist shall come and raygne three yeares a halfe and that then Antichrist shal be slayne Christ shall appeare the Resurrection shall be and the Saints shall raign heere with Christ vpon earth for a thousand yeares in great peace and tranquillity the Infidels not being wholy rooted out but seruing peaceably Which ended the Diuell shal be loosed againe and a most fierce warre of all Nations be raysed against the same Saints which they serued for a thousand yeares and this is the battaile of Gog and Magog of which Ezechiel and S. Iohn do speake But that a little after all the wicked shal be slayne by God and that then the second Resurrection shall be and the world be wholy renewed This opinion was also of many of the ancient Fathers as Papias S. Iustine S. Irenaeus Tertullian Apollinaris and some others as S. Hierome relateth in cap. 36. Ezech. and Eusebius lib. 3. hist cap. vlt. But it is long since exploded as a manifest errour for our Lord Matth. 24 and â—5 plainly teacheth that after the persecution of Antichrist the last iudgment shall follow forthwith and that all the good shall go into euerlasting life and all the euill into euerlasting fire and therfore that afterward there shall not be another thousand yeares nor euer after any more battailes The third opinion is of Eusebius who lib 9. demonst Euang. cap. 3. thinketh that Gog is the Roman Emperour and Magog his Empire But he buildeth vpon a false Foundation for he deduceth this opinion ouâ— of Numb 24. where according to the translation of the 70. we read the kingdome of Gog shal be extolled and his Kingdome shal be increased God hath brought him out of Egypt c. where the Scripture seemeth to say thaâ— when Christ shall returne out oâ— Egypt in his infancy
yet the Kingdomes in his exposition were signified by the fourth Beast and iron legges and the Kinges by the 10. hornes and 10. toes And is not M. Downam a wise man thinke you to confirme one absurditie with another farre greater and which he knoweth his aduersary will much lesse graunt then that Downam childishly confirmeth one absurditie with another farre greater which he goeth about to proue Besides that this deuise is so foolish that euery child will laugh at M. Downam for it for who seeth not that the King succeedeth not his Kingdome as the ten toes doe the iron legges and the ten hornes by the consent of all Ecclesiasticall writers the 4. beast but must of force be vnited togeather except we will make the Kingdomes of the Seleucidae and Lagidae or of the Romans to haue byn without their Kings and Emperours and afterward againe the Kinges Emperours without their States which is so grosse an absurditie as mee thinkes M. Downam should see it and it is little lesse to call these Kinges the toes of their Kingdomes whereas euerie man els accompteth them the heads in respect of their owne Kingdomes howsoeuer in respect of others they may be called toes because of their succession in the last place And by this that hath byn said I doubt not it will appeare to the iudicious Reader whether Bellarmines argument or M. Downams answere be more impertinent and friuolous 3. To the second proofe out of the Apocal. 17. M. Downam hath very little to answere therfore he is glad to take hould Apoc. 17. of euery word spoken obiter and by the way as that Rome is the Harlot wherof S. Io. speaketh and that the seauen heads signify all the Emperours of Rome the first of which M. Downam liketh very well but the second he affirmeth to be vntrue because they are numbred fiue are fallen the sixt is and the 7. is not yet come in which point I will not now much cōtend because M. Downam confesseth that it is besides the purpose And if hereafter he can bring any other exposition more probable he shall find me very ready to allow of it though he might haue vsed more moderation in his censure Downam not moderate in his censure since he cannot choose but know that many great authors haue taken the number of 7. in this place indefinitely as without all question in many other places it is to be taken and his difficulty must be solued by himselfe since that in this very chapter he affirmeth that Apoc. 13. by the Beast with 7. heades is meant the Roman State and that vnder the Roman Emperours especially and yet by the head which was wounded which he maketh the 6. he likewise vnderstandeth the State of the Emperours which besides the difficulty common to Bellarmine inuolueth a contradictiō peculier to M. Downam Neither will I stand now to discusse with M. Downam whether Rome be the Seate of Antichrist or no or how and in what state only I must aduise him that Bellarmine affirmeth not that the VVhore of Babylon is the seate of Antichrist as neither that Rome after the desolation of the Empire is the VVhore of Babylon but these are M. Downams owne additions See cap. 13. which if he will haue graunted he must first proue them in their due places But now to come to that which Bellarmin would proue M. Downam first is inforced to yeild that these ten hornes signify 10. Kinges which shall raigne togeather and only can help himselfe with affirming that these are not the same ten hornes whereof Daniel speaketh which raigned successiuelie For which point I remit my selfe to that which hath byn said in the former proofe besides that it is no small confirmation that S. Iohn must needes be vnderstood of 10. Kinges which raigne togeather since their wordes are so like and S. Iohn may be thought to expound Daniel whome heere M. Downam citeth cap. 11 perhaps through the Printers fault since that chapter maketh not to his purpose and therefore was neuer mētioned in the whole precedent discourse Well it is now at length agreed vpon that there shall 10. Kinges raigne togeather Wherfore it only remayneth to proue that in the time of these 10. Kings there shal be no Roman Emperour consequently that the Roman Empire shal be vtterly destroyed and so it is tyme for M. Downam to bestirre himselfe and to vse al his iugling tricks First then he bringeth in Bellarmines first proposition in the beginning of the question for an argument in this place and not truly neither But it will be best to heare M. Downams owne wordes How then saith he doth Bellarmine proue that before Antichrist commeth the Roman Empire shall be so vtterly destroyed as not the name of a Roman Emperour or King of the Romans should remayne because the Empire shall be deuided among 10. Kinges which are not Roman Kinges c. Wheras Bellarmines wordes are these VVe must know that the Roman Empire is at length to be deuided into ten Kinges of which none shal be or be called King of the Romans where you see not only the being but also the name of Roman Kinges is excluded But saith M. Downam he that is none of those 10. Kinges may haue the name of the Emperour or King of the Romans as namely the beast which was is not though it be which is the 8. head and is one of the 7. that is to say the Emperour erected by the Pope This found and foolish conceipt that the beast which was and is not is the Emperour erected by the Pope shall in other places be largely confuted Now I would only know how this Emperour can be when the whole Empire is deuided among those other 10. Kinges as Bellarmine affirmeth and proueth out of this very place as we should haue seene ere this had not M. Downam interrupted vs with his impertinent disgressions which perhaps foreseeing and fearing he putteth another question somewhat more to the purpose And why may none of these be called the King of the Romans first forsooth because they shall hate Rome and make her desolate But he might haue kept his first forsooth in his purse insteed of money for Bellarmine giueth but one reason which is the foresaid wordes of Scripture adding only the exposition of them which because M. Downam could not impugne he though best to deuide that so hauing separated the exposition from the place of Scripture the one might want authority and the other be easily shifted of as he doth in these words As though he that hath the title of the King of the Romans may not hate Rome notwithstanding that title as indeed some of the Emperours haue done which euasion had byn too ridiculous if he had added Bellarmines exposition to wit that the Scripture testifieth that these Kings shal hate the harlot and make her desolate and naked and shall eate her flesh and shal burne her
with fire because they shall so deuide the Roman Empire amongst them that they shall vtterlie destroy it Where by the way M. Downam may vnderstād The Roman Empire destroied by the 10 Kings that by Rome is not onlie vnderstood the particuler Citty but also the whole Roman Empire of which in S. Iohns tyme Rome was the head and so denominated the whole as that which the Logicians would call principale Analogatum Now how can the vtter destruction of this Romā Empire be more significantlie declared then by being hated made desolate and naked haue her flesh eaten and finallie be burnt with fire And how can anie man imagine but that the 10. Kinges which shall bring all this to passe shal be vtter enemies aswell of the Emperours so long as there are any as likewise of the Empire And by this tyme I imagine M. Downam will be perswaded that Bellarmine vsed no circular disputation but confirmed his doctrine by an expresse place of Scripture But least there should want a circular disputation M. Downam bringeth in an experience approoued onlie Downams petitio principij by his owne opinion but altogeather denied by Bellarmine all Catholikes of the Roman Empire alreadie dissolued deuided betwixt Antichrist ten Kinges the title name of Emperour still remayning by which to anie iudicious Reader hee maketh himself so ridiculous that his bragging of his former proofs out of this place that Antichrist is come and that the Pope is Antichrist will hardlie be belieued and at leastwise I doubt not but men will staie their censure till they see those proofes examined 4. M. Downam comming to the third proofe verie courteously admitteth it because it is so manifest that he could not deny it that 2. Thess 2. is to bee vnderstood of 2. Thess 2. the Roman Empire but then he manfully denieth that either the Apostle or anie of the Fathers excepting Lactantius whose prophecie saith M. Downā in this point the Papists themselues do think to be erroneou◠do say that the Empire of Rome shall so vtterly be abolished as that not so much as the name of the Emperour or King of the Romans shall remaine Where first wee haue the authoritie of Lactantius so plaine as no euasion can be found to shift it of and therefore M. Downam is inforced to call his prophesie erroneous and is not ashamed to affirme that it is held so by Catholikes euen in this point For cofirmation of which he is alleadged by Bellarmine which no doubt is a point of egregious impudency But wee see noe cause why wee Downās impudencie should not more esteeme the authority of Lactantius so ancient and learned a writer then of a thousand M. Downams especiallie since both the Scripture and Fathers fauour his opinion so greatly For what is de medio fieri but to be quite taken away and I belieue M. Downam would bee loath to stand to the hazard if there were order giuen by some in authoritie vt ipse de medio fieret And this the Fathers tooke to be so plaine that they thought it needed no exposition though sometime they vse other words which signifie the same vtter desolation as S. Cyril when the tymes of the Roman Empire are expired Tertull. when the Empire is ouerthrowne S. Ambrose after the defectiō abolitiō S. Hierom except all Nations which are subiect to the Roman Empire reuolt from them and vnles How many waves the Fathers affirme the vtter destructiō of the Romā Empire why they spake sparingly of this point the Roman Empire be first desolate passe and bee takē away And S. Augustine opposeth to be takē out of the way to raigning So that when the Emperour is taken out of the way hee shall raigne no longer which is all one as to saie he shal be no longer Emperour Surelie it is hard to expresse the vtter desolatiō of any Kingdome with more significant wordes And yet Bellarmine tould M. Downam a verie good reason why both the Apostle and the Fathers would speake somewhat sparinglie in this point to wit least it might be offensiue to the Roman Emperours in whose tymes they liued and therefore wee see how fearefullie Lactantius speaketh how Tertullian bringeth it in without offence saying that Christians praie for the continuance of the Roman Empire And M. Downam might haue done well to haue found vs out some one Father that had fauoured his exposition which he neglected not for want of good will as wee see plainelie by his citing of S. Hierome Qui tenebat de medio sit c. which hee translateth He which held is taken away c. putting the preter-perfect Downam translateth not well for the present tense and so he should haue said He which held is in taking away or haue added some other signe which might haue signified that it was in doing but not done which is most true both in S Hieroms tyme and euer since before too and the neerer we see the Roman Empire to draw to an end the neerer we may likewise thinke that Antichrist draweth as S. Hierome affirmeth but till that fit be made factus est that is till the Roman Empire be vtterlie ouerthrowne indeed Antichrist shall not come how neere soeuer he be which S. Hierome and all the Fathers plainely affirme as we haue seene Neither can M. Downam himselfe think that the Empire was taken away in such sort in S. Hieromes time as was necessary before Antichrists comming and reuealing since that he himself dareth not affirme that he came then in such sort as S. Paul describeth 2. Thess 2. Wherfore he must either reiect S. Hierom in this also or els expound him as I haue done And it is a prettie matter that the Apostle and the Fathers telling vs that the Roman Empire hindereth Antichrists comming M. Downam should still beare vs downe that the Empire as it is now hindereth not Antichrist but rather furthereth But I hope men will rather haue the Apostle and the Fathers to stand by them in the day of iudgment when they shall giue accompt of their fayth in this point then M. Downam who will haue more then he can doe to answere for himselfe The Holy Ghost wel foresaw that the Roman Empire should be in these tymes as we now see it and no doubt would not haue affirmed so absolutely that it hindereth Antichrists comming if at any tyme it could haue bene togeather with him or haue furthered him otherwise we might haue a iust excuse for our mistaking Neither is the Empire now so greatly diminished as M. Downam There now a Roman Emperour indeed not in name or title only would giue vs to vnderstand for there is now an Emperour of the Romans indeed and not only in title without the thing it selfe as we see the whole world acknowledgeth euen the Protestants themselues and who but M. Downam would affirme that the Emperour that now is