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fire_n nature_n spirit_n water_n 2,472 5 6.4022 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A04474 A replie vnto M. Hardinges ansvveare by perusinge whereof the discrete, and diligent reader may easily see, the weake, and vnstable groundes of the Romaine religion, whiche of late hath beene accompted Catholique. By Iohn Iewel Bishoppe of Sarisburie. Jewel, John, 1522-1571.; Harding, Thomas, 1516-1572. Answere to Maister Juelles chalenge. 1565 (1565) STC 14606; ESTC S112269 1,001,908 682

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wine_n s._n chrysostome_n say_v natura_fw-la panis_n in_o sacramento_n remanet_fw-la infa●es_fw-la the_o nature_n of_o bread_n remain_v in_o the_o sacrament_n theodoretus_n say_v christus_fw-la naturam_fw-la panis_n non_fw-la mutat_fw-la sed_fw-la naturae_fw-la adijcit_fw-la gratiam_fw-la christ_n change_v not_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o bread_n but_o unto_o the_o same_o nature_n he_o add_v grace_n s._n augustine_n say_v quod_fw-la vide●is_fw-la panis_n est_fw-la &_o calix_n quod_fw-la vobis_fw-la etiam_fw-la oculi_fw-la renuntiant_fw-la the_o thing_n that_o yowe_o see_v be_v bread_n and_o the_o cup_n which_o thing_n your_o eye_n do_v testify_v here_o be_v the_o plain_a testimony_n of_o four_o ancient_a catholic_a father_n in_o this_o behalf_n but_o these_o new_a laterane_n father_n contrary_a wise_n say_v 10._o here_o cease_v the_o substance_n and_o nature_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n the_o nature_n of_o bread_n remain_v not_o christ_n change_v the_o nature_n and_o substance_n of_o the_o bread_n believe_v not_o the_o witness_n of_o your_o eye_n the_o thing_n that_o yowe_o see_v be_v no_o bread_n thus_o these_o new_a father_n as_o it_o may_v appear_v of_o purpose_n be_v contrary_a to_o the_o old_a hereof_o we_o may_v reason_v thus_o the_o old_a catholic_a father_n understand_v not_o this_o new_a fantasy_n of_o transubstantiation_n therefore_o they_o understand_v not_o the_o remaininge_n of_o the_o accident_n without_o substance_n yet_o have_v m._n hardinge_n choose_v this_o as_o the_o only_a fundation_n of_o his_o whole_a cause_n m._n hardinge_n the_o .2_o division_n s._n cyprian_n that_o learned_a bishop_n and_o holy_a martyr_n say_v thus_o in_o sermone_fw-la de_fw-fr coena_fw-la domini_fw-la panis_n iste_fw-la quem_fw-la dominus_fw-la discipulis_fw-la porrigebat_fw-la non_fw-la effigy_n sed_fw-la natura_fw-la mutatus_fw-la omnipotentia_fw-la verbi_fw-la factus_fw-la est_fw-la caro._n this_o bread_n which_o our_o lord_n give_v to_o his_o disciple_n change_v not_o in_o shape_n but_o in_o nature_n by_o the_o almighty_a power_n of_o the_o word_n he_o mean_v christ_n word_n of_o consecration_n be_v make_v flesh_n lo_o he_o confess_v the_o bread_n to_o be_v change_v not_o in_o shape_n or_o form_n for_o that_o remain_v but_o in_o nature_n that_o be_v to_o say_v in_o substance_n and_o to_o signify_v the_o change_n of_o substance_n and_o not_o a_o accidentarie_a change_n only_o to_o wit_n from_o the_o use_n of_o common_a bread_n to_o serve_v for_o sacramental_a bread_n as_o some_o of_o our_o new_a master_n do_v expound_v that_o place_n for_o a_o shift_n he_o add_v great_a weight_n of_o word_n whereby_o he_o far_o overpeise_v these_o man_n light_a devise_n saieinge_v that_o by_o the_o almighty_a power_n of_o our_o lord_n word_n it_o be_v make_v flesh_n very_o they_o may_v consider_v as_o they_o will_v seem_v to_o be_v of_o sharp_a judgement_n himself_o that_o to_o the_o performance_n of_o so_o small_a a_o matter_n as_o their_o sacramental_a change_n be_v the_o almighty_a power_n of_o god_n word_n be_v not_o needful_a and_o now_o if_o this_o word_n factus_fw-la est_fw-la may_v signify_v a_o imaginative_a make_n then_o why_o may_v not_o verbum_fw-la caro_fw-la factum_fw-la est_fw-la likewise_o be_v expound_v to_o the_o defence_n of_o sundry_a old_a hainouse_a heresy_n against_o the_o true_a manhood_n of_o christ_n thus_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o bread_n in_o this_o sacrament_n be_v change_v and_o the_o form_n remaininge_v so_o as_o it_o seem_v bread_n as_o before_o consecration_n and_o be_v make_v our_o lord_n flesh_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o word_n the_o substance_n of_o bread_n change_v into_o that_o most_o excellent_a substance_n of_o the_o flesh_n of_o christ_n of_o that_o which_o be_v before_o the_o accident_n remain_v only_o without_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n the_o like_a be_v to_o be_v beleve_v of_o the_o wine_n the_o b._n of_o sarisburie_n this_o place_n of_o s._n cyprian_n be_v often_o and_o much_o allege_v as_o if_o every_o word_n thereof_o be_v a_o argument_n as_o in_o deed_n at_o the_o sight_n and_o first_o appearance_n it_o seem_v vehement_a and_o sound_v much_o but_o be_v well_o weigh_v and_o considere_v it_o will_v appear_v in_o substance_n as_o it_o be_v certain_o of_o annihilation_n of_o remoovinge_v of_o nature_n of_o remaininge_v of_o accident_n without_o subject_a which_o thing_n m._n hardinge_n have_v take_v to_o prove_v it_o speak_v nothing_o natura_fw-la for_o answer_n first_o it_o be_v plain_a by_o these_o four_o ancient_a learned_a father_n s._n augustine_n s._n chrysostome_n gelasius_n and_o theodoretus_n that_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n after_o the_o consecration_n remain_v in_o their_o nature_n and_o substance_n as_o they_o be_v before_o which_o thing_n notwithstanding_o it_o be_v not_o the_o nature_n of_o bread_n that_o work_v the_o effect_n and_o force_v of_o this_o sacrament_n that_o be_v that_o christ_n may_v dwell_v in_o we_o and_o we_o in_o he_o no_o more_o than_o it_o be_v the_o nature_n of_o water_n in_o the_o sacrament_n of_o baptism_n that_o work_v the_o effect_n thereof_o and_o make_v we_o flesh_n of_o christ_n flesh_n and_o bone_n of_o his_o bone_n 〈◊〉_d and_o for_o better_a evidence_n hereof_o to_o compare_v one_o sacrament_n with_o a_o other_o s._n basile_n say_v gratia_n baptismatis_fw-la non_fw-la est_fw-la ex_fw-la natura_fw-la aquae_fw-la sed_fw-la ex_fw-la praesentia_fw-la spiritus_fw-la the_o grace_n of_o baptism_n be_v not_o of_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o water_n but_o of_o the_o presence_n of_o the_o spirit_n and_o therefore_o cyril_n say_v quemadmodum_fw-la viribus_fw-la ignis_fw-la etc._n etc._n as_o water_v be_v vehement_o heat_n by_o the_o strengthe_n of_o fiere_fw-la heat_v no_o less_o than_o if_o it_o be_v fire_n in_o deed_n so_o the_o water_n of_o baptism_n by_o the_o work_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n be_v reform_v unto_o a_o divine_a power_n or_o nature_n so_o chrysostome_n say_v elizaeus_n potuit_fw-la undarum_fw-la mutare_fw-la naturam_fw-la etc._n etc._n 42._o elizeus_fw-la be_v able_a to_o change_v the_o nature_n of_o the_o water_n and_o make_v it_o able_a to_o bear_v iron_n here_o chrysostome_n say_v even_o as_o s._n cyprian_n say_v that_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o water_n be_v change_v 5._o yet_o the_o very_a substance_n of_o the_o water_n remain_v as_o before_o likewise_o s._n ambrose_n speak_v of_o god_n marvelous_a work_n in_o baptism_n say_v non_fw-la agnosco_fw-la usum_fw-la naturae_fw-la nullus_fw-la est_fw-la hic_fw-la naturae_fw-la ordo_fw-la ubi_fw-la est_fw-la excellentia_fw-la gratiae_n in_o this_o case_n i_o have_v no_o skill_n of_o the_o use_n of_o nature_n 9_o the_o order_n of_o nature_n have_v no_o rule_n where_o as_o be_v the_o excellency_n of_o god_n grace_n again_o he_o say_v est_fw-la hoc_fw-la illud_fw-la magnum_fw-la mysterium_fw-la quod_fw-la oculus_fw-la non_fw-la vidit_fw-la nec_fw-la auris_fw-la audivit_fw-la ne●_n in_o cor_n hominis_fw-la ascendit_fw-la aquas_fw-la video_fw-la quas_fw-la videbam_fw-la quotidiè_fw-la i_o istae_fw-la habent_fw-la mundare_fw-la in_fw-la quas_fw-la saepè_fw-la descendi_fw-la &_o nunquam_fw-la munda●us_fw-la sum_fw-la 4._o hinc_fw-la cognosce_fw-la quòd_fw-la aqua_fw-la non_fw-la mundat_fw-la sine_fw-la spiritu_fw-la be_v this_o that_o great_a mystery_n that_o the_o eye_n never_o see_v that_o the_o ear_n never_o hear_v that_o never_o ●ntred_v into_o the_o heart_n of_o man_n i_o see_v water_n that_o i_o see_v every_o day_n before_o be_v this_o it_o that_o shall_v make_v i_o clean_a i_o have_v go_v oftentimes_o into_o it_o 3._o and_o be_v never_o the_o clean_a therefore_o understande_v thou_o that_o water_n of_o his_o own_o nature_n without_o the_o holy_a ghost_n cleanse_v not_o and_o again_o per_fw-la predicationem_fw-la dominicae_fw-la crucis_fw-la aqua_fw-la fit_a dulcis_fw-la ad_fw-la gratiam_fw-la by_o the_o preachinge_a of_o our_o lord_n cross_n 8._o the_o water_n byside_o his_o own_o nature_n be_v make_v sweet_a unto_o grace_n and_o in_o this_o respect_n s._n hilary_n say_v vno_fw-la christo_fw-la per_fw-la naturam_fw-la unius_fw-la baptismi_fw-la indu●mur_fw-la we_o put_v upon_o we_o moseos_fw-la only_o one_o christ_n by_o the_o nature_n of_o one_o baptism_n and_o gregory_n nyssene_n in_o like_a sort_n natura_fw-la aquae_fw-la praecedente_fw-la virga_fw-la fidei_fw-la etc._n etc._n vitam_fw-la praestat_fw-la the_o nature_n of_o water_n thus_o consider_v the_o rod_n of_o faith_n goinge_v before_o geve_v life_n otherwise_o he_o say_v hoc_fw-la beneficium_fw-la non_fw-la aqua_fw-la largitur_fw-la baptismate_fw-la etc._n etc._n sed_fw-la dei_fw-la praeceptum_fw-la &_o spiritus_fw-la aqua_fw-la verò_fw-la subseruit_fw-la ad_fw-la ostendendam_fw-la purgationem_fw-la it_o be_v not_o water_n of_o his_o own_o nature_n that_o geve_v this_o benefit_n but_o the_o commandment_n of_o god_n and_o the_o holy_a ghost_n the_o water_n serve_v to_o show_v we_o the_o cleansinge_v of_o the_o soul_n by_o these_o example_n i_o turst_z it_o may_v appear_v what_o s._n cyprian_n mean_v by_o the_o change_n of_o nature_n uery_o origen_n that_o ancient_a learned_a father_n touchinge_v the_o bread_n in_o the_o sacrament_n of_o christ_n
themselves_o jew_n that_o be_v 2._o the_o people_n of_o god_n but_o they_o be_v the_o synagoge_n of_o satan_n o_o fight_v not_o m._n hardinge_n thus_o against_o god_n fight_v not_o against_o your_o own_o conscience_n it_o be_v hear_v for_o you_o thus_o to_o kike_v against_o the_o prick_n 9_o the_o more_o you_o fight_v the_o more_o you_o bewray_v your_o own_o nakedness_n these_o colour_n and_o shadow_n must_v needs_o vade_v god_n with_o his_o truth_n will_v have_v the_o uictorie_n amen_n m._n hardinge_n the_o .12_o division_n now_o to_o be_v short_a where_o as_o the_o chief_a argument_n that_o be_v make_v against_o the_o be_v of_o christ_n body_n in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o be_v deduce_v of_o nature_n in_o respect_n that_o this_o article_n seem_v to_o they_o to_o abolishe_v nature_n it_o may_v please_v they_o to_o understande_v that_o god_n who_o be_v author_n of_o nature_n can_v by_o his_o power_n do_v with_o a_o body_n that_o which_o be_v above_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o body_n nature_n not_o destroy_v but_o keapte_v and_o preserve_v whole_a which_o plato_n the_o heathen_a philosopher_n will_v soon_o have_v be_v induce_v to_o believe_v if_o he_o be_v alive_a who_o ask_v what_o be_v nature_n answer_v quod_fw-la deus_fw-la vult_fw-la that_o which_o god_n wil._n mean_v and_o therefore_o we_o believe_v that_o enoch_n and_o elias_n yet_o mortal_a by_o nature_n do_v by_o power_n of_o god_n live_v in_o body_n and_o that_o above_o nature_n abacue_n be_v by_o the_o same_o power_n catch_v up_o and_o in_o a_o moment_n carry_v from_o jewrie_n to_o babylon_n his_o nature_n reserve_v whole_a s._n peter_n by_o god_n accord_v to_o nature_n walk_v on_o the_o earth_n the_o same_o by_o god_n besides_o nature_n walk_v upon_o the_o water_n christ_n after_o condition_n of_o nature_n assumpt_v suffer_v death_n in_o body_n the_o same_o christ_n by_o his_o divine_a power_n enter_v with_o his_o body_n in_o to_o his_o disciple_n through_o door_n close_v the_o b._n of_o sarisburie_n our_o proof_n be_v ground_v not_o only_o upon_o natural_a reason_n but_o also_o upon_o the_o express_a and_o know_v will_n of_o god_n and_o by_o such_o argument_n the_o learned_a father_n be_v wont_a in_o old_a time_n to_o dispute_v of_o christ_n humanity_n against_o apollinarius_n manichaeus_n eutyches_n and_o other_o like_a heretic_n without_o controlment_n for_o natural_a reason_n hold_v within_o her_o band_n be_v not_o the_o enemy_n but_o the_o daughter_n of_o god_n truth_n and_o therefore_o he_o must_v be_v very_o unreasonable_a that_o will_v thus_o without_o cause_n be_v angry_a with_o reason_n but_o it_o appear_v that_o m._n hardinge_n as_o he_o be_v utter_o without_o scripture_n and_o doctor_n in_o these_o case_n so_o be_v he_o also_o void_a of_o reason_n as_o touchinge_v plato_n it_o seem_v there_o be_v hard_o hold_v when_o a_o natural_a philosopher_n must_v stand_v forth_o to_o prove_v christ_n mystery_n this_o matter_n within_o these_o few_o hundred_o year_n have_v be_v attempt_v many_o way_n by_o logic_n by_o philosophy_n by_o the_o metaphysic_n &_o by_o the_o name_n of_o old_a father_n but_o when_o none_o of_o all_o these_o healpe_n will_v serve_v they_o imagine_v &_o bring_v forth_o animosam_fw-la fidem_fw-la a_o faith_n without_o any_o word_n of_o god_n bold_a to_o believe_v they_o know_v not_o what_o in_o the_o end_n find_v their_o want_n and_o weakness_n herein_o for_o that_o this_o faith_n have_v no_o ground_n they_o divise_v miracle_n and_o fieres_fw-la enough_o and_o join_v they_o with_o it_o then_o be_v the_o matter_n sufficient_o and_o full_o prove_v but_o plato_n say_v natura_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la deus_fw-la vult_fw-la nature_n be_v that_o thing_n that_o god_n wil._n first_o what_o if_o m._n hardinge_n understande_v not_o what_o plato_n mean_v and_o what_o if_o plato_n never_o understand_v what_o m._n hardinge_n mean_v yet_o must_v plato_n name_n serve_v to_o prove_v all_o m._n hardinge_n fantasy_n plato_n say_v nature_n be_v what_o so_o ever_o god_n wil._n must_v we_o therefore_o conclude_v that_o cold_n be_v hot_a white_a be_v black_a accident_n without_o subject_a subject_a without_o accident_n a_o body_n be_v no_o body_n a_o nature_n finite_a be_v infinite_a what_o a_o strange_a kind_n of_o philosophy_n have_v m._n hardinge_n find_v out_o it_o be_v a_o simple_a weapon_n that_o these_o man_n will_v refuse_v to_o serve_v their_o turn_n the_o philosopher_n call_v epicuraei_fw-la hold_v this_o fantasy_n that_o god_n sit_v in_o heaven_n idle_o and_o at_o ease_n never_o incombringe_v or_o trouble_v himself_o with_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o world_n and_o that_o therefore_o nature_n rule_v itself_o only_o by_o chance_n and_o at_o adventure_n without_o any_o certain_a direction_n of_o god_n government_n and_o that_o what_o so_o ever_o be_v do_v therein_o be_v no_o part_n of_o god_n dooinge_a contrary_a wise_a the_o philosopher_n call_v stoici_fw-la hold_v a_o other_o fantasy_n that_o god_n himself_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o nature_n and_o that_o therefore_o all_o thing_n be_v wrought_v by_o necessity_n and_o force_v of_o destine_v and_o that_o god_n be_v able_a to_o work_v no_o miracle_n nor_o to_o do_v any_o thing_n contrary_a to_o the_o common_a course_n of_o nature_n both_o these_o folly_n plato_n reprove_v by_o this_o short_a answer_n natura_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la deus_fw-la vult_fw-la his_o meaning_n be_v that_o nature_n be_v subject_n and_o obedient_a unto_o god_n and_o that_o there_o be_v neither_o chance_n nor_o necessity_n in_o the_o course_n of_o nature_n but_o all_o thing_n be_v order_v by_o god_n appointement_n and_o natural_a cause_n be_v only_o the_o instrument_n of_o god_n wil._n and_o therefore_o some_o compare_n nature_n to_o the_o horse_n and_o god_n to_o the_o horseman_n that_o bridle_v she_o and_o turn_v she_o whither_o he_o list_v and_o for_o the_o same_o cause_n origen_n 1._o say_v anima_fw-la mundi_fw-la est_fw-la virtus_fw-la dei_fw-la the_o soul_n of_o the_o world_n be_v the_o power_n of_o god_n and_o s._n ba●ile_n say_v the_o world_n be_v the_o school_n of_o our_o soul_n to_o lead_v we_o to_o know_v god_n therefore_o god_n be_v able_a by_o his_o power_n to_o divide_v the_o sea_n 1._o to_o pull_v back_o and_o to_o stay_v the_o son_n to_o open_v the_o earth_n to_o make_v the_o water_n of_o jordane_n to_o stand_v as_o a_o wall_n to_o stay_v the_o fire_n from_o burn_v and_o the_o water_n from_o drowninge_n 〈◊〉_d if_o any_o man_n list_v to_o know_v the_o cause_n hereof_o there_o be_v none_o other_o but_o god_n wil._n in_o this_o sense_n the_o philosopher_n simonides_n be_v wont_a to_o say_v solus_fw-la deus_fw-la est_fw-la metaphysicus_n god_n alone_o be_v supernatural_a and_o pindarus_n for_o the_o same_o call_v god_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d the_o best_a or_o skilful_a artificer_n likewise_o s._n augustine_n say_v quomodo_fw-la est_fw-la contra_fw-la naturam_fw-la quod_fw-la dei_fw-la fit_a voluntate_fw-la cùm_fw-la voluntas_fw-la tanti_fw-la conditoris_fw-la sit_fw-la cuiuscunque_fw-la rei_fw-la natura_fw-la how_o be_v it_o against_o nature_n that_o be_v do_v by_o god_n will_n seeinge_v the_o will_n of_o so_o noble_a a_o creator_n be_v the_o nature_n of_o every_o thing_n 8._o this_o undoubted_o be_v plato_n meaning_n now_o let_v we_o examine_v m._n hardinge_n reason_n nature_n be_v what_o so_o ever_o god_n will_v elias_n and_o enoch_n be_v yet_o alieve_v in_o their_o body_n abacuc_n be_v catch_v and_o carry_v to_o babylon_n s._n peter_n walk_v upon_o the_o sea_n ergo_fw-la christ_n body_n be_v at_o one_o time_n in_o a_o thousand_o place_n these_o argument_n hold_v a_o posse_fw-la ad_fw-la esse_fw-la and_o may_v have_v stand_v the_o heretic_n manichaeus_n and_o eutyches_n in_o some_o good_a steed_n but_o in_o catholic_a school_n they_o have_v no_o place_n but_o how_o be_v m._n hardinge_n so_o well_o assuer_v of_o god_n will_n how_o know_v he_o that_o god_n will_v have_v christ_n body_n to_o be_v in_o a_o thousand_o place_n at_o one_o time_n to_o be_v everywhere_o to_o be_v infinite_a to_o be_v no_o body_n uery_o the_o ancient_a father_n for_o any_o thing_n that_o may_v appear_v never_o know_v it_o hand_n contrary_a wise_a he_o may_v have_v say_v god_n holy_a will_n be_v that_o christ_n shall_v take_v the_o natural_a substance_n of_o a_o man_n body_n and_o that_o in_o all_o thing_n he_o shall_v be_v like_a unto_o his_o brethren_n and_o that_o his_o body_n shall_v be_v a_o creature_n 2._o and_o as_o s._n augustine_n say_v shall_v be_v in_o one_o place_n this_o be_v god_n know_v and_o express_v will_n prima_fw-la therefore_o by_o plato_n judgement_n this_o be_v nature_n certain_o s._n augustine_n say_v as_o it_o be_v before_o allege_v christus_fw-la corpori_fw-la svo_fw-la immortalitatem_fw-la dedit_fw-la naturam_fw-la non_fw-la abstulit_fw-la christ_n give_v immortality_n to_o his_o body_n but_o he_o take_v not_o from_o it_o the_o