Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier he being Lord of the house The wickednesse of which collections you shall neuer be able to answeare And because you here vrge me therunto I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture wherwith by false interpretation you deceaue the simple which taken from you your matter is nothingh but cauilling The places are these Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explanes the other and your collections the same from both I will beginne with nombers 6.32.33.34 etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying the Lorde bless thee keep thee c. Here you say they were commaunded to vse the verie wordes prescribed in all their blessings This I say is not true for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu thus shall you blesse wher the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this maner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This worde Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this maner in all the Prophets wheÌ„ they say thus saith the Lorde where the summe of their prophesies are onlie recorded to vs by the holy Ghost aÌ„d not all the wordes Againe this blessing is vsed in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer for the people in manie other wordes Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes etc. And where by Lâ—ce 11.2 yt is recorded that our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Disciples when you pray say our Father c. yt is playne by the doctrines following 4.5.6.8.11 verses that Christ tyed no man to the verie wordes saying ouer for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants But to make this place more playne the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray say thus Our Father c. where the greeke word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh had which is after this maner and cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying ouer wherupon Mr. Calvin vpon those wordes saith Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis vtendum sit The Sonne of God would not prescribe what wordes we must vse Now consider how falslie Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures to say the Priests wer commaunded to vse the verie wordes and that Christ commaunded to vse the verie wordes As for his collections that therfore mens writings may be imposed vpoÌ„ publique assemblies by stint and number to be prayde vt is intollerable error and bringeth in all popery Here I must call all men that reade this fruictlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue to the defacing of Gods truth In his Epistle he proclaymed that I called all men Idolaters which you shall perceaue to be his owne wordes and to that end I will breifly repeat yt In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint aÌ„d limitation instead of true invocation as also all reading meÌ„s writings for praying to be idolatrye In his answeare he said he could not see by what collour yt could be called Idolatrie or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be but yt seemes the penners of these things take euery sinne against the first table of the lawe to be Idolatry if they do so saith he and with all do hold that no Idolater shal be saued then doubtlesse all are lost c. Tothis ignoraÌ„t excursorie I answered that all false and devised worship by mans inuention was Idolatrye as the first and second commandemens did testifie And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrye yet reading of mens writinges instead of praying must needes be idolatry seing yt is a transgression of the second Commandement Furder though I needed not have followed his emptye head euen a cloude without water yet I proceeded to proue that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their knowne sinne and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreat faults Moreouer said I do you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrye seing we cannot keep one Commaundement and in some things we sinne all In which wordes i plainelie reproued his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatrye and that no idolater could be sauld and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and inperfection etc. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my chardg that i should call all meÌ„ idolaters wheras i neuer vsed such a worde in all my writings But only answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this vpon his owne heade by concluding that if euery sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saued then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And i leaue it to the consideration of all men whether i may not say that they which traÌ„sgresse the first or second Commaundements do commit Idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though yt be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers Idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therfore your former absurd cauilling where you said if we hold it Idolatrie etc. ys by your owne mouth fully answered But to auoyde this foyle he hath an other euasion I thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a Church is to be condeÌ„ned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me I neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse but only laboured to shew all men this error of reading meÌ„s writinges instead of praying that they might learne how to conuerse with God and their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes wil you make for this sclandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt vnto you if you you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess thaâ— all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots c. This worde idolaters must still be yours and then i willinglie graunt that no man liuing is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church vpon earth can be without spot vpon earth So that now by your owne coÌ„fessioÌ„ I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endeuour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth giue contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of vntruthes was yt possible I should hold al men Idolatres and some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to mainetaine both such heresies as you
fall into any sinne except the sinne against the holye GHOST yet bee restored by repentance GODS grace so far abounding alwayes considered as then I noted that obstinacye in anye sinne make them to vs the servants of sinne whiles they so remayned not speaking this to giue leaue or incouragement to presume in the least or first step of sinne lest GOD leaue them to themselves but to giue them hope if they returne that haue so fallen hee excepteth generally against all presumptuous sinne saying of frailty Gods childrē may fall but of presumption hee maketh great doubt for anye so sinning to bee renued by repentance for it is spokē of the Maranatha to bee pronounced in this life to none but that bee in that sinne against the holye Ghost and here to fill his paper as his common shift is when hee can neither affirme nor denye hee putteth me to newe questions You must saith hee declare howe filthye incest is not sinne against the holye GHOST nor if a man kill his Father or Mother or children nor witchcraft nor familiarity with Spirits is not your meaning that the regenerate man may of presumption and obstinacy commit these If Maister Giffard shoulde thus vnderstande the worde may hee is in the same fault to say the regenerate may sinne of frailty And I answere furder hee coulde vnderstand the worde may otherwise if as in all his writinges hee caryed not this minde to take all in euil part to quarrell hee coulde have vnderstood it thus that God suffereth of his elect to fall into such sinne yet hee is able to reduce them by repentance and hath made promise to receive them iff they retourne and not haue cauilled in this maner in such thinges the horrour in the verye naming of which sinnes shaketh the flesh and bones of the godlye to heare or behold so that his drift is but to cast in a litle wormewood to deface the truth deliuered Therefore I will onlye prooue the generall doctrine before affirmed and for these perticulars let him that taketh pleasure in raking in them being sinnes not once to bee named amongst GODS children answere himself And much better might hee have put his question thus Whither wilfullye committing of sacriledge and presumptuous continuing to enchant in a false ministery with Iannes and Iambres resistinge the truth persecutinge the light against their knowledge bee not within the compasse of that sinne against the holye Ghost That GODS elect after regeneration doe fall into presumptuous sinne and for a time persist in obstinate sinne and may bee restored by repentance I thus prooue Manie of GODS children may bee excommunicat and vpon the repentance bee receiued againe as the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. therefore do for a time remayne in obstinate sinne Againe euerie sinne is to bee prayed for but that one sinne against the holye Ghost 1. Iohn 5.16 Therfore presumptuous sinne is committed of GODS elect after regeneration That all presumptuous sinne is not sinne against the holy GHOST wee shall see by the discription of that sinne Hebr. 6. and 10. where there is dispyting of the Spirit accompting the blood of IESUS an vnholy thinge persecuting the light they haue sometimes tasted of and such like notes which are degrees further then presumption for there is presumption of ignorance of rashnes of hope of mercy and many times do the Prophets charge the people with rebellion against GOD so that all presumption cannot have the curse maranatha pronounced vpon it or the persons not to bee prayed for But sure I grant that presumption is neere to that sinne and there cannot bee that high sinue without presumption But now if all sinne but sinne of frayltie were vnpardonable your Clergie were in a wofull case that thus maynely resist the truth and persecute GODS servants Neither is this doctrine anye way contrarie to that I delyvered namelye that the regenerat man cannot bee said to stande in bondage to sinne after regeneration and the servant of GOD at the same time by outwarde profession for none are in bondage to sinne after their calling to the faith to our iudgment but suche as contynue obstinate in their open knowne sinne after due admonition that such stande not by outwarde profession the servants off CHRIST but of sinne and are to bee excommunicate hee willingly granteth and herevpon merueileth how I shoulde gather that obstinat grosse sinners shoulde not bee excommunicat which hee might playnlye perceiue if hee had eyes for if al the regenerat bee in bondage to sinne and so the servants of sinne and of Sathan howe should they cast out an other for bondage out of their fellowship by the power of CHRIST If Maister Giffard say because the obstinate is in greater bondage then the other this proueth not that the bond can cast out the bond by the power of Christ. Againe if all bee in bondage then none can bee houlden without for being in bondage to sinne so that none shoulde be excommunicat none without the worlde and the CHURCH light and darknes CHRIST and BELIALL should bee mingled together To all which hee hath made no answere but demandeth certeine questions and maketh such a formall conclusion as if all were in bondage vnto sinne His questions I grant all affirmantiuely yet denye his consequence Let him plainely proue therfore by euidence of SCRIPTURE that all that do sinne are bondslaues of sinne and when hee hath so done I shall therevpon conclude him a flat Anabaptist in the cheif ground of their profession Verye gladlye therefore woulde hee leave out the worde bondage and falslye accuseth and sclandereth mee in saying I holde that men can not outwardly appeare sinners and stand the servants of CHRIST both at a time which is an open vntruth Yt is hee that cannot put difference betwene sinning and bondage vnto sinne so that in one worde all his questions are answered If anie bee in bondage to sinne hee standeth a seruant thereof Now for the 7. to the Romanes the APOSTLE setting forth the strift betwene the flesh and the Spirit speaketh somtimes in the person of the one if I may so speake and somtimes of the other somtimes of the newe man or regenerat part or of himself so far as hee is regenerat somtimes of the olde man which is not wholly slayne but ful of rebellion striueth for maisterie Nowe I must demand of him whether of these two haue the preheminence dominion and rule in the regenerat the graces of the Spirit or the rebellions of the flesh The same APOSTLE saith the SPIRIT and that part off the man renewed there with which wee call the inner man In the 8. Cap. he maketh it playne The lawe of the spirit of life in CHRIST hath freed mee from the lawe of sinne and of death What is the lawe of the Spirit but the powre rule and dominion of the Spirit of GOD in vs And what is the lawe of sinne but the powre of sinne and bondage wherewith
AN AVNSVVER TO GEORGE GIFFORDS PRETENDED DEFENCE OF READ PRAYERS AND DEVIsed Leitourgies with the vngodly cauils and vvicked sclanders comprised in the first part of his book entituled A SHORT TREATISE against the Donatists of England BY IOHN GREENWOOD CHRISTS POORE AFFLICTED prisoner in the Fleete at London for the trueth of the gospel 1590. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from God our Father and Iesus Christ our Lord. BEcause Prayer vnto God is a most Christian exercise and fruit of faith being rightly vsed having so many commaundements and promises concerning it in the Scripture by which we come most neare vnto God as in any other part of his worship speaking to him as it were mouth to mouth when we lift vp our hearts and powre forth our requests vnto the Lord it was thougt needfull seing these latter Treatises of Mr. Greenwoods towching this ArgumeÌ„t are now published agayne aÌ„d his first concerning it cannot be had here therefore to note downe briefly a few things both coÌ„cerning the doctrine aÌ„d right vse of praier aÌ„d in particular concerning read prayer by meanes whereof it is come to passe that true praier is so much vnknoweÌ„ neglected aÌ„d profaned And this we pray thee Christian Reader to take in good part and to examine vp the word of God which is the onely rule of truth and light of our feet in the darknes of this World Prayer is the lifting vp off the heart vnto God to call vpon his name with faith by the work and help of his Spirit Psal. 25.1 Rom. 10 1 .14 Mat. 21.22 Rom. 8.26.27 Praier is eyther with words or without words With words being vttered in speach eyther publickly or privately eyther in mo or fewer words yet alway briefly according â—o the present and severall occasioÌ„s Exod. 32.11.12.13 Ezra 9.6.15 2. â—am 7.18.29 and 15.31 Mat. 26.39 Ioh. 17. chap. Act. 1.24.25 and 4.24.30 Heb. 13.15 Without words being conceyved onely in the mynd and so presented before the Lord who knoweth the thoughts and secrets of the heart Exod. 14.15 â— Sam. 1.12.13 Esa. 38.14 Prayer is eyther Request or Thankesgiving Both these are eyther for our selves or for others Request for our selves is deprecatioÌ„ or supplication for others intercession 1. Tim. 2.1 Deprecation is for some evill to be kept or removed by the Lord froÌ„ vs. Mat. 6.13 and 8.24.25 Psal. 70. Gen. 32.9.12 2. Cor. 12.8 IaÌ„ â— 13 Supplication is for some good thing to be graunted or coÌ„tinewed of God vnto vs. Mat. 6.9.12 Gen. 24.12 Exod. 33.12.13 Psal. 4.6 Luk. 11.13 and 17.5 Intercession is for others eyther for some good to be given or some evill to be taken from them Mat. 6.9.11.12 and 5.44 Exod. 32.11.12 13. Ephes. 6.18.19.20 Rom. 15.30.31.32 Iam. 5.14.18 1. Ioh. 5.16 Thankesgiving is the yeelding of praise and thaÌ„ks vnto God for his mercy and benefits eyther given or promised Mâ— 6â—9 13 Gen. 24.27 Exo. 15.1.21 Psa. 69.29.36 aÌ„d 103.1.5 Ioh. 11.41 1. Tim. 1.17 Re. 7 1â— Prayer is to be made alwayes and onely in the Mediation of Christ. Ioh. 14.13.14.1 Tim. 2.5 Not that this need alway to be mentioned but that we ought alway to come before God and present our selves and our prayers vnto him with faith in the Mediation of Christ â— by whom alone we and al our sacrifices are made acceptable vnto God For in him are all the promises of God yea and Amen 2. Cor. 1.20 Through him are all the graces aÌ„d mercyes of God conveyed vnto vs Ioh. 1.16 Ephes. 4.7 By his MediatioÌ„ our prayers being presented before his Father all the weaknes want of faith love hope aÌ„d any other corruption wherewith our prayers as they proceed from vs be disteyned are covered and taken away Because he putteth the sweet odour of his Mediation vnto our prayers and so presenting them to his Father they are accepted of him Rev. 8.3.4 with Exod. 30.7.8 Psal. 141.2 Mar. 9.22.23.24 1. Pet. 2.5 For this cause therefore must prayer in faith alway respect Gods promise and Christs Mediation Mar. 11.24 Psal. 50.15 Rom. 8.34 Heb 7.25 and 9.24 And for the same cause must the person that prayeth first be accepted of God in Christ before their prayers and sacrifices can be approved Rev. 1.5.6 1. Pet. 2.5 Prov. 15.8 Hag. 2.13.14.15 Gen. 4.3.4.5 and 6.8 and 8.20.21 with Heb. 11.4.7 Wherevpon we are bound to be carefull first our selves to be in the true faith and Church of Christ vnder his Mediation that we may our selves be accepted of the Father in him and then in faith to offer our prayers both for matter and maner so as we have warrant by the word of God that he wil heare vs aÌ„d that Christ will be our Mediatour therein For which see the Scriptures a foresaid and Mat. 6.9 Ephes. 2.19 and 4.4.5.6 Act. 2.41.47 Exo. 30.9 Levi. 17.3.7 Deut. 12.5.8 Psal. 16.4 and 50.8.14.16 17.23 Esa. 1.12 etc. Mal. 1.14 1. Tim. 2.1.2.5.8 Iam. 1.5.8 Iohn 5. 13.14 Rev. 8.3.4 For our better direction and assurance herein hath Christ giveÌ„ that forme of prayer which is commonly called the Lords prayer Mat. 6. 9.13 Luk. 14.1.2.3.4 Where he hath prescribed a direction for the framing of all our prayers both for matter and maner according to that rule For in it we are taught as towching the matter of all our prayers that they be for things first and chiefly concerning Gods glory and then concerning our good so as will stand with the glory of God Ioh. 12.27.28 And towching the maner of prayer that it be in faith hope and love with reverence briefly and humbly propounded that he in al may be glorifyed In faith I say both of Gods willingnes to heare aÌ„d help as being our Father in Christ aÌ„d of his ability therevnto as being in heaven able to do whatsoever he will Esa. 63.16 Psal. 115.3 In hope of his mercy and favour towards vs he being our Father and we his children in Christ. Luc. 11.9.13 In love both off God and one off another in Christ. Psa. 116.1 Mar. 11.25.26 Act. 4.24 With revereÌ„ce as coming before our heavenly Father who is full off glory and Majesty he in heaven we on earth etc. And therefore also ought our prayers briefly and hunbly to be propounded not seking after long or affected speach nor vsing vayne repetitions etc. Mat. 6.7.8.9 Genes 18.27 Exood 34.8.9 Ecclesiast 5.1 And note here that Christ hath propounded this direction not by way off exhortation or doctrine as in other cases he was woont but in forme off petitions and those very brieff Least otherwise we should have doubted that we might not with such confidence in few words have spoken directly vnto God himselff but that we must have vsed either mediatours for vs as the Papists or sighs onely without words as the Anabaptists or never ceasing from prayer as the Eutychians or at least some long circuâ—staÌ„ce off words aÌ„d great affectatioÌ„ of speach or the like as ignorance superstition and hypocrisy are ready
trumperie be brought into the Church off God and there be read reverenced aÌ„d receaued as the sacred word of God thrust vpon mens consciences yea vpon God himself whether he wil or no Is not this presuÌ„ptuously to vndertake to teach the spirit of God and to take away his office which as hath beene said instructeth al the children of God to pray eveÌ„ with inward sighes and grones in expressable and giueth both wordes aÌ„d vtteraÌ„ce yea and as the Apostle Ihon saieth we need no other teacher to these thinges then that annointing which we have receaved and dwelleth in vs. Is not this if they wil haue their written stuffe to be held and vsed as prayer to bind the holy Ghost to the froth and leaven of their lips as yt were to the holy word of God Is it not vtterly to quench and extinguish the spirit off God both in the ministerie and people whiles they tye both theÌ„ and God to their stinted numbred praiers Is this the vnitie and vniformitie that ought to be in al Churches and is amongst al Christes servantes to make theÌ„ agree in a stinking patcherie devised apocrypha leitorgie good for nothing but for cushsions and pillowes for the idle priestes and profane carnal Atheistes to rock them a sleepe and keep them in securitie wherby the conscience is no way either touched edified or bettered Truly I am ashamed to think much more to write of so grosse and filthie abhominacion so generally receaved even of al estates of these partes of the world who have by a popish custom and traditioÌ„ receaued yt one off and from an other without any warrant from the word For the Apostles I am sure these maister builders haue left no such president in or commaÌ„dement vnto the churches neither giuen them any such power to bring in or set vp any such apocrypha Lyturgie in the church of God They alwaies vsed spiritual praiers according to their present waÌ„tes and occasions and so taught all churches to pray alwaies with al maner off praier ond supplication in the spirit and therby to make knowen their wantes and shew their requestes in al thinges vnto God their heaueÌ„ly father Our Sauiour Christ also he taugt his disciples that God is a Spirit and wil be worshipped in spirit and truth He hath likewise set downe most excellent rules and a most absolute forme for al praiers in that part of scripture Mat. 6.9.10.11.12.13 commoÌ„ly but falsly called the Lords praier wherin he hath most notably instructed directed aÌ„d restrained our ignorant and inordinate desires to those excellent heades In which whatsoeuer is needful for vs to desire or lawful for vs to pray is in some one or other of those braÌ„ches included euerie one off the being a base and foundatioÌ„ wherevpoÌ„ and wherby to frame many millions of seueral peticions according to the seueral waÌ„tes and occasions at such several times as the saintes haue cause to pray They are al of theÌ„ so many euerrunning fountaines from which Godes seruaÌ„tes by the holy Ghost deriue and draw coÌ„tinually fresh aÌ„d new graces aÌ„d are al together such an abisme and vnmeasured â—ea of wisdome from which al Christes seruaÌ„tes thorough the world haue alwaies fetched all their knowledg graces confort and assurance of aÌ„d in their praiers according to the capacitie of the vessel of their faith some more some lesse al some yet haue not al of theÌ„ together much lesse any one of theÌ„ is able in the litle dish of his shallow vnderstaÌ„ding to comprise the vnmeasurable depth and greatnes of this Ocean of al wisdome aÌ„d grace Wherby yt is euideÌ„t as also by the circumstaÌ„ces and maner of deliuering the same by our Sauiour Christ by his Apostles Disciples and Churches spiritual vse of praier according to their present estate and wantes that these prescript wordes were not giuen or inioyned as a prescript praier so to be vsed by any even the wisest much lesse the simpler vnbroken vp vnexpounded etc. so much as a compendious summarie of al necessarie knowledg aÌ„d rules for al praier gathered by the Author of all wisdome into a brief for the direction and instruction of our weaknes and ignorance Of which endes aÌ„d vses whiles some are ignoraÌ„t or rather as their grosse idolatrie carnal dulnes and superstitious presumptioÌ„ sheweth are ignorant either what faithful praier or the spirit of God is whiles they both popishly abuse this Scripture as a principal collect in their publike leitourgie with their ofteÌ„ and idle repetition therof fiue times in their morrow masse etc. and also through this abuse they grow further bold to mould a new calfe a new Leitourgie of their owne and set that vp also in the church of God as they count yt Yf yt were granted theÌ„ that this scripture and sundry psalmes and other scriptures they alledg out of the prophetts were coÌ„manded and enioyned to be read and vsed as and for the very praiers of the church and of the Saintes then which nothing can be more false or grosly fond to conceaue yet which way if this were granted them can they hereby proue yt lawful for them to bring in thâ—ir owâ—e apocrypha deuises aÌ„d set them vp in the church as aÌ„d with the holy canonical word of God May their stinking filth be compared or placed with the heaueÌ„ly liuely word of God without vâ—sufferable blasphemie may the froth of their lips and follie of their heartes be thrust vpon mens consciences yea euen vpon the Spirit of God himself in this maner In the church of God may nothing come or be heard but the canonical scriptures aÌ„d liuely graces of Godes Spirit according to the same But these their apocrypha Leitourgies can neither be said the word of God neither the liuely graces of Gods spirit according to the same word seing they were made and conceiued long before and are wholy thus vsed without warrant example or commandement in the word of God yea are contrary to the rules of aÌ„d for praier to the exercise and vse of Gods Spirit and directly set against al the lawes of the first Table by worshipping God in vaine afther their owne traditions preceptes aÌ„d devises and not according to his holy Wil and commandement And agayne in his Refutation of Mr. Giffard he briefly summeth vp in generall some especiall reasons against the common prayer book afore said besides the discuâ—sing of it in particular from point to point His reasons concerning it in generall he thus propoundeth Refutat pag. 49.50 1. In that they presume to giue and enioyne their prescript wordes in praier they take the office of the holie Ghost a waye queÌ„ch the spirit of the ministrie and of the whole Church stop and keepe out the graces of God thrust their owne idle devises vpon the whole Church yea vpon God himselfe vvhether he wil or no 2. In that by their Leitourgie they prescribe vvhat and how much to reade at Morne to their Mattens at
betweene proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading the one being a powring fourth of vowes petitions supplications the other a receaving into the soule of such things as we reade This therfore i leaue to all mens consciences to be considered whether the matter we reade can be said a powring fourt of the heart the whole vse of those divers actions through the whole Bible shew yt cannot Now where I said that you teach men insteade of powring fourth their hearts to help them selves with matter and wordes out of a booke you say I speake fondlie and foolishlie etc. Mine answeare now is yt is well I lyed not if I had said you compell men to reade vpon a booke in all your publique assemblies certaine wordes of your owne writings by number and stint from yeare to yeare and day to day the same instead of powring out their hearts before the Lorde for their present waÌ„ts I had not lyed Now let all men by that which hath bene said consider the grossnes of yt and so the follie remayneth to your self But to help this matter and to deliuer your self conningly in such strayte you saâ— you wish all men to vse the help of the booke that they migt the better powre fourth their hearts vnto God being such as are not throughly able First you graunt here the prayers read vpon the booke is not the powring fourth of the heart but ought to be vsed only as an help wherbie you graunt the whole question and furder all your assemblies haue had no other invocation of Gods name this many yeares but a help to teach theÌ„ to powre fourth their hearts But whether mens writings may be read in the publique assemblies to this vse we shall after make manifest Here yt is graunted but an help and not the powring fourth of the heart And to whom is yt an help to such as are notable to pray Here eyther you must confesse your whole ministerie is vnable to pray or that they transgresse in this high worship of GOD for in an other place you graunt in all your assemblies this reading is vsed of mens writings for prayer thus you may behold your best worship to be nothingh but a help to teach you to pray Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the booke euen in their tyme of begging at GODS hand you say I speake fondly to call that the cause which is the manifestacion of the cause etc. You here forget your artes Is ther no more cauâ—es then one if yt be the instrumentall cause it is sufficient to prove that if your Mininisters had not their booke they had nothing to aske or els asking that which is in the booke they aske not that wich before was in their owne heartes so not comming heauie loaden they goe emptie away and leave the matter in the booke as they founde yt till the next day and then sing the same songe But true prayer is when the heart is first prepared and moued with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh breade So we should not pray of custome but aske the verie thing wherof our heart feeleth the wantâ—et Your comparison againe betwixt the being stirred vp by a Sermon and stirred vp by reading sheweth that your self will not make the reading the powring fourth of the heart Ther is no question but the exercise of reading is chieflie for instructioÌ„ and encrease of knowledge and meditating is not the same nether can be said to be al the vse of reading though we denie reading to be praying but because we are forbidden conteÌ„tion about wordes and I have offred you as much wrong in saying you denyed reading to be for meditation at all I will proceede to the more necessarie doctrines Also for the controversie of Canonicall and Apocryphall we shall speak in due place Thus say you you have answered nothing at all vnto this Commandement giuen by our saviour Christ to vse that prescript forme of prayer say Our Father c. but by shift cauill c. Here you thinke you haue put me to a plunge your self needed nothing doubt but that I allowed the CoÌ„maundement holie and good and to extend to al Christians as well as to the Apostles namely to vse that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne and direction to all mens true prayers But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers and praying or prayer And here you vehemently vrge me to answeare you before I see you conclude any thing froÌ„ the place and so I should runne into follie to answeare a matter before I heare yt In your first entrance of this discourse you were rounde in your Syllogismes by two at once to wrast my wordes and can find none for yourself Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang togeather And me thinkes you had never more neede to haue shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. seing I either mistooke you last time or els you make a simple collectioÌ„ which was this Christ said to his Disciples when you pray say Our Father c. and not when you meditate say Our Father Now what would you conclude of this except as I said that Christ would not haue them meditate that Scripture But this I perceaue was not your meaninge now I partlie thinke your Argument should be if the sworde were not brokeÌ„ in the sheath thus Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father c. therfore to be tyed to reade ouer or say by roate certeine wordes is law full praying For the first that our Sauiour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say ouer those verie wordes when they prayde but to pray according to that forme after that maner as Matth. 6. I manifested in my first writing 1. that our Sauiour did not commaunde vs to vse those wordes 2 that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say read these wordes when you pray or say these wordes by roate After all which reasoÌ„s slilye passed away in both your answeres you come with your bare affirmation that he commaunded those wordes to be said ouer by roate or reading yea a litle after you say it is false to say that he commaunded not the verie wordes to be said ouer when we pray And you furder conclude that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say ouer those wordes therfore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier being agreable to the worde To which I aÌ„swere that seing no maÌ„s writings are without error yt is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect First because you make mens writings of equal autority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2 for that you gyue meÌ„ as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their