power then other Churches but not over all other Churches And as they understand Irenae a Necessity lay upon all other Churches to agree with this but this Necessity was laid upon them by the Then Integrity of the Christian Faith there professed not by the Universality of the Romane Jurisdiction now challenged And let Rome reduce it selfe to the Observation of Tradition Apostolike to which it then held and I will say as Irenaeus did That it will be then necessary for every Church and for the Faithfull every where to agree with it Lastly let me Observe too That Irenaeus made no doubt but that Rome might fall away from Apostolicall Tradition as well as other Particular Churches of great Name have done For he does not say in quâ servanda semper erit sed in quâ servata est Not in which Church the Doctrine delivered from the Apostles shal ever be entirely kept That had beene home indeed But in which by God's grace and mercy it was to that time of Irenaeus so kept and preserved So wee have here in Irenaeus his Iudgement the Church of Rome then Intire but not Infallible And endowed with a more powerfull Principality then other Churches but not with an Universall Dominion over all other Churches which is the Thing in Question But to this place of Irenaeus A. C. joynes a reason of his owne For he tels us the Bishop of Rome is A. C. p. 58. S. Peter's Successour and therefore to Him we must have recourse The Fathers I deny not ascribe very much to S. Peter But 't is to S. Peter in his owne person And among them Epiphanius is as free and as frequent in extolling S. Peter as any of them And yet did he never intend to give an Absolute Principality to Rome in S. Peter's right There is a Noted Place in that Father where his words are these †Ipse autem Dominus constituit â—…um Primum Apostolorum Petram firmam super quam Ecclesia Dei adificat a est portae inferorum non valebunt adversus illam c. Juxta omnem enim modum in Ipso firmata est fides qui accepit Clavem Coelorum c. In hoc enim omnes Questiones ac Subtilitates fidei inveniuntur Epiphan in Ancorato Edit Paris Lat. 1564. fol. 497. A. Edit verò Grace Latin To. 2. p. 14. For the Lord himselfe made S. Peter the first of the Apostles a firme Rocke upon which the Church of God is built and the Gates of Hell shall not prevaile against it c. For in him the Faith is made firme every way who received the Key of Heaven c. For in him all the Questions and Subtilties of the Faith are found This is a great Place at first sight too and deserves a Marginall Note to call young Readers eyes to view it And it hath this Note in the Old Latine Edition at Paris 1564. Petri Principatus Praestantia Peter's Principality and Excellency This Place as much shew as it make for the Romane Principality I shall easily cleare and yet doe no wrong either to S. Peter or the Romane Church For most manifest it is That the authority of S. Peter is a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For there bâ—…gins the Arâ—…ument of Epiphanius urged here to proove the Godhead of the Holy Ghost And then follow the Elogyes given to S. Peter the better to set off and make good that Authority As that hee was b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Princeps Apostolorum the Prince of the Apostles and pronounced blâ—…ssed by Christ because as God the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Sonne so did the Sonne the Godhead of the Holy Ghost After this Epiphanius calls Him c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 solidam Petram a solid Rocke upon which the Church of God was founded and against which the Gates of Hell should not prevaile And addes That the Faith was rooted and made firme in him d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. every way in him who received the Key of Heaven And after this he gives the Reason of all e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. S. Mâ—… 16. 17. Because in Him mark I pray 't is still in Him as he was blessed by that Revelation from God the Father S. Matthew 16. were found all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the very Niceties and exactnesse of the Christian Faith For he prosessâ—…d the Godhead of the Sonne and of the Holy Ghost And so Omni modo every Point of Faith was 〈◊〉 in Him And this is the full meaning of that Learned Father in tâ—…is passage Now therefore Building the Church upon Saint Peter in Epiphanius his sense is not as if He and his Successors were to be Monarchs ovâ—…r it for ever But it is the edifying and establishing the Church in the true Faith of Christ by the Confession which S. Pâ—…ter made And so f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Qui factus est nobis rever à solida Petra firmans fidem Domini In quâ Petrá aedificata est Ecclesia juxta omnem modum Primò quòd confessus est Christum esse Filium Dei vi vi statim audivit super hanc Petram soliâ—… 〈◊〉 adisicabo Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 Etiam de Sp. Sancto idem c. Epipha L. 2. Hares 59. contra Catharos To. 1. p. 500. Edit Graeco-Lat Hee expresses himselfe elsewhere most plainly Saint Peter saith he who was made to us indeed a solid Rock firming the Faith of our Loâ—…d On which Rocke the Church is built juxta omneÌ„ modum every way First that he Confessed Christ to be the Sonne of the Living God and by and by he heard Upon this Rocke of solid Faith I will build my Church And the same Confession he made of the Holy Ghost Thus was S. Peter a solid Rocke upon which the Church was founded omni modo every way That is the Faith of the Church was a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ibid. confirmed by him in every Point But that S. Peter was any Rocke or Foundation of the Church so as that he and his Successours must be relied on in all matters of Faith and governe the Church like Princes or Monarchs that Epiphanius never thought of And that he did never thinke so I prove it thus For beside this apparent meaning of his Context as is here expressed how could hee possibly thinke of a Supremacy due to S. Peter's Successour that in most expresse termes and that b Ille primus speaking of S. Iames the Lords Brother Episcopalem Cathedram capit quum ei ante â—…teros omnes suum in terris Thronum Dominus tradidisset Epiphan L. 3. Hares 78. To. 2. p. 1039. Et ferè similiter To. 1. L. 1. Hares 29. twice repeated makes S. Iames the brother of our Lord and not S. Peter succeed our Lord in the Principality of the Church And Epiphanius was too full both of Learning and Industrie to
a â—…tsi Christus adsit in medio talium non adest tamen ad omnem effectum aut ad hunc qui est Iudicare de fide Staple Relect Controv. 6. q. 3. A. 4. Sed nec illi semper ad Deum respiciunt qui in medio eorum est Neâ—… Deus sic adest iiâ—… qui respiciunt ad Ipsum ut omnem veritatem doceat in Instanti omni tempore simul c. Iunius in Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 2. necessary things infallibly granted unto them as oft as they aske if they aske not as well as they ought as what they ought And yet most true it is that where more or fewer are gathered together in the Name of Christ there is he in the midst of them but to assist and to grant whatsoever he shall find fit for them not Infallibly whatsoever they shall thinke fit to aske for themselves And therefore S. Cyprian though he use this very Argument A minori ad majus from the lesse to the greater yet he presumes not to Extend it as Bellarm. doth to the obtaining of Infallibility but only useth it in the Generall way in which there neither is nor can be doubt of the truth of it Thus. b Si duo Vnanimes tantum possunt Quid si Vnanimit as apud omnes esset S. Cypr. L. 4. Epis. 4. If two that are of one minde to God-ward can doe so much what might be done if there were Vnanimity among all Christians Vndoubtedly more but not All whatsoever they should aske unlesse all other Requisites were present Thirdly in this their owne c Non ad Iâ—…fallibilem certitudinem alicujus Sententiae in quam plures in Nomine Christi consentiunt locus hic Evangelii propriè accomodari debet sed ad efficaciam consensionis plurium ad id impetrandum quod unanimiter in Christi Nomine petunt si id quidem ad eorum salutem expediat Secùs onim non modo ex illo loco probabitur c. Greg. de Valen. To. 2. in Thom. Disput. 1. Q. 1. Puncto 7. §. 45. And although Stapleton approves this Argument à Minori ad Majus vet withall he sayes Firmitas Conciliorum illis Christi verbis propriè non innititur Quia nec Christus ibi de Conciliis Episcoporum loquiâ—…ur sed de quâvis Fidelium unanimi Congregatione Nec etsi c. Staple Relâ—…ct Contr. 6. q. 3 A. 4. Great Champions disagree from Bellarmine or he from them For Gregory de Valentia and Stapleton tell us That this place doth not belong properly to prove an Infallible Certainty of any sentence in which more agree in the Name of Christ But to the efficacy of Consent for obtaining that which more shall pray for in the Name of Christ if at least that be for their soules health For els you may prove out of this Place That not only the Definition of a Generall Councell but even of a Provinciall nâ—…y of two or three Bishops gathered together is valid and that without the Popes Assent The last Place mentioned for the Infallibility of Generall Councells is that Acts 15. where the Apostles say Act. 15. 28. of themselves and the Councell held by them It seemes good to the Holy Ghost and to Vs. And They might well say it For They had Infallibly the Assistance of the Holy Ghost and they kept close to his Direction But I do not finde that any Generall Councell since though they did implore as they ought the Assistance of that Blessed Spirit did ever take upon them to say in terminis in expresse termes of their Definitions Visum est Spiritui Sancto Nobis It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to Vs. Acknowledging even thereby as I conceive a great deale of Difference in the Certainty of those things which a Generall Councell at after Determined in the Church and those which were setled by the Apostles when They sate in Councell But though I do not finde That They used this speech punctually and in termes yet the Fathers when They met in Councell were Confident and spake it out That They had Assistance from the Holy Ghost yet so as that They neither tooke Themselves nor the Councells They sate in as Infallibly Guided by the Holy Ghost as the Apostles were And Valentia is very right a Quintum Argumentum c. Aut sunt ergo Arrogantes quod putandum non est Aut infallibilitèr definiunt Respondet Valentia concedendo neutrum To. 3. in Thom. Disp. 1. Q. 1. Puncto 7. §. 45. That though the Councell say they are gathered together in the Holy Ghost yet the Fathers are neither Arrogant in using the speech nor yet Infallible for all that And this is true whether the Pope approve or disapprove their Definitions Though Valentia will not admit that The Pope must be with him infallible what ever come of it Now though this be but an Example include no Precept yet both b Firmit as eorum nititur Exemplo primi Concilii Staple Relect Contro 6. q. 3. A. 4. ad 3. Stapleton and a Et Bellarm. dicit Locum hunc esse tertium è Propriis L. 2. de Concil c. 2. §. Tertius Locus Bellarmine make this Plaâ—…e a proper Proofe of the Infallibility of Generall Councels And b Conciliorum Decreta sunt Spiritus Sancti Oracula Stapl. ibid. Sententia Orthodoxa prima Stapleton sayes the Decrees of Councels are the very Oracles of the Holy Ghost which is little short of Blasphemy and c Si illud Concilium ex quo formam acceperunt omnia alia Concilia asserit Decreta sua esse Decreta Sp. Sancti certè idem assercre possunt caetera legitima Concilia c. Bellar. ibid. Bellarmine addes that Because all other Councels borrowed their forme from this therefore other lawfull Councels may affirme also That their Decrees are the Decrees of the Holy Ghost Little considering therewhile That it is one thing to borrow the Forme and another thing to borrow the Certainty and the Infallibility of a Councell For suppose that After-Councels did follow the Form of that first Councel exactly in all Circumstances yet I hope no advised man will say There is the like Infallibility in other Councels where no man sate that was Inspired as was in this where all that sate as Iudges were Inspired Or if any Iesuite will be so bold as to say it he had need bring very Good Proofe for it and far better then any is brought yet Now that all Councels are not so Infallible as was this of the Apostles nor the Causes handled in them as there they were is manifestby d Vide quà m prudentèr aguÌ„t non pracipitaÌ„t SententiaÌ„ sed singula expendunt In rebus â—…nim Fidei quae conscientiaÌ„ tangunt non satis est dicere Volumus Mandamus Vides igitur quomodo Conveniunt Apostoli simpliciter Conveniunt nihil nisi Deum quaerunt
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo
explicandi Emanationem Sp. S. quà m in ipsá re c. Iodocus Clictoveus in Damase L 1. Fid Orth. c. 11. Et quidam ex Graecis concedunt quòd sit á Filio vel ab eo prostuat Thom. p. 1. q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit Sp. S. procedere mediatè à Filio ib. A. 3. ad 1. salâ—…em ratione Personarum Spirantium Respondeo cum Bessarione Gennadio Damascenum non negâsse Sp. S. procedere ex Filio quod ad rem attinet quùm dixerit Spiritum esse Imaginem Filii per Filium sed existimásse tutiùs dici per Filium quà m ex Filio quantum ad modum loquendi c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Christo c. 27. §. Respondeo igitur Et Tollet in S. Iohn 15. Ar. 25. Lutheran Resp. ad Resp. 2. Ieremiae Patriarchae The Master and his Schollers agree upon it The Greeks saith he confesse the Holy Ghost to bee the Spirit of the Son with the Apostle Galath 4. and the Spirit of truth S. Iohn 16. And since Non est aliud it is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that He is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this They seeme to agree with us in candem Fidei sententiam upon the same Sentence of Faith though they differ in words Now in this cause where the words differ but the Sentence of Faith is the same d Eadem penitùs Sententia ubi suprà Clictov penitùs eadem even altogether the same Can the Point be fundamentall You may make them no Church as e Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. §. Quod autem apud Graecos Bellarmine doth and so deny them salvation which cannot be had out of the true Church but I for my part dare not so do And Rome in this Particular should be more moderate if it be but because this Article Filióque was added to the Creed by her selfe And 't is hard to adde and Anathematize too It ought to be no easie thing to condemne a man of Heresie in foundation of faith much lesse a Church least of all so ample and large a Churchas the Greeke especially so as to make them no Church Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owne girdle And it is good counsell which a Lib. 3. cont Hares fol. 93. A. 〈◊〉 vidcant ht qui famile de haerest pronumiant quaÌ„ facile etiam ipsi errent Et intelligant non esse tam leviter de Haeresi censenduÌ„ c. In verbo Beatitudo Alphonsus à castro one of your owne gives Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie how easie it is for themselves to erre Or if you will pronounce consider what it is that separates from the Church simply and not in part only I must needs professe that I wish heartily as well as b Iunius Animad in Bellar. cont 2. L. 3. c. 23. others that those distressed men whose Crosse is heavie already had beene more plainly and moderately dealt withall though they thinke a diverse thing from us then they have beene by the Church of Rome But hereupon you say you were forc'd F. Whereupon I was forced to repeate what I had formerly brought against D. White concerning Points Fundamentall B. Hereupon it is true that you read a large § 10 Discourse out of a Booke printed which you said was yours The Particulars all of them at the least I do not now remember nor did I then approve But if they be such as were formerly brought against Doctor White they are by him formerly answered The first thing you did was the * P. First righting the Sentence of S. Austine Ferendus est Disputator errans c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us very learnedly that my corrupt Copy hath righting instead of reading the Sentence of S. Austine Whereas I here use the word righting not as it is opposed to reading as any man may discerne A. C. palpably mistakes but for doing right to S. Austine And if I had meant it for writing I should not have spelled it so righting of S. Augustine which Sentence I doe not at all remember was so much as named in the Conference much lesse was it stood upon and then righted by you Another place of S. Augustine indeed was which you omit But it comes after about Tradition to which I remit it But now you tell us of a great Proofe made out of this †By which is proved That all poynts Defined by the Church are Fundamentall Place For these words of yours containe two Propositions One That all Poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall The other That this is proved out of this Place of S. Augustine 1. For the first That all Poynts defined by the Church are fundamentall It was not the least meanes by which Rome grew to her Greatnesse to blast every Opposer she had with the name of Hereticke or Schismaticke for this served to shrivel the credit of the Persons And the Persons once brought into contempt and ignominie all the good they desired in the Church fell to dust for want of creditable Persons to backe and support it To make this Proceeding good in these later yeares this Course it seemes was taken The Schoole that must maintaine and so they doe That all Points Defined by the Church are thereby a Your owne word Fundamentall b Inconcussâ fide ab omnibus Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art 10. C. necessary to be believed c Sco us 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. of the substance of the Faith and that though it be determined quite d Ecclesiae Voces etiam extra Scripturam Stap. Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. Quae maturo judicio definivit c. Solidum est etiamsi nullo Scripturarum aut evidenti aut probabili testimonio confirmaretur bid Extra Scripturam And then e Et penes Cercopes Victoria sit Greg. Naz. de Differen vitae Cercopes 1. Astutos veteratoriae improbitat is Episcopos qui artibus suis ac dolis omnia Concilia perturbabant Schol. ib. leave the wise and active Heads to take order that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them But since these men distinguish not nor you betweene the Church in generall and a Generall Councell which is but her Representation for Determinations of the Faith though I be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by Lawfull Generall and consenting Authority though I give as much as can justly be given to the Definitions of Councels truly Generall nay suppose I should grant which I doe not That Generall Councells cannot erre yet this cannot downe with me That all Poynts even so defined are Fundamentall For Deductions are not prime and native Principles nor are Superstructures Foundations That which is a
other And even in those Fundamentall Things in which the Whole Vniversall Church neither doth nor can Erre yet even there her Authority is not Divine because She delivers those supernatural Truths by Promise of Assistance yet tyed to Meanes And not by any speciall Immediate Revelation which is necessarily required to the very least Degree of Divine Authority And therefore our †Hook l. 3. §. 9 VVorthies do not only say but prove That all the Churches Constitutions are of the nature of Humane Law a Stapl. Relect. Con. 4. q. 3. A. 1. 2. And some among you not unworthy for their Learning prove it at large That all the Churches Testimony or voyce or Sentence call it what you will is but suo modo or aliquo modo not simply but in a manner Divine Yea and A. C. himselfe A. C. p. 51. after all his debate comes to that and no further That the Tradition of the Church is at least in some sort Divine and Infallible Now that which is Divine but in a sort or manner bee it the Churches manner is aliquo modo non Divina in a sort not Divine But this Great Principle of Faith the Ground and Proofe of whatsoever else is of Faith cannot stand firme upon a Proofe that is and is not in a manner and not in a manner Divine As it must if we have no other Anchor then the Externall Tradition of the Church to lodge it upon and hold it steddy in the midst of those waves which daily beate upon it Now here A. C. confesses expresly That to prove the Bookes of Scripture to bee Divine we must bee A. C. p. 49. warranted by that which is Infallible Hee confesses farther that there can be no sufficient Infallible Proofe of A. C. p. 50. this but Gods Word written or unwritten And he gives his Reason for it Because if the Proofe be meerely Humane and Fallible the Science or Faith which A. C. p. 51. is built upon it can be no better So then this is agreed on by mee yet leaving other men to travell by their owne way so bee they can come to make Scripture thereby Infallible That Scripture must bee knowne to bee Scripture by a sufficient Infallible Divine Proofe And that such Proofe can be nothing but the Word of God is agreed on also by me Yea and agreed on for me it shall be likewise that Gods Word may be written and unwritten For Cardinall †Verbum Dei non est tale nec habet ullam Authoritatem quia scriptum est in membranis sed quia à Deo profectum est Bellar. l. 4 de Verb. Dei 2 §. Ecclesiasticae Traditiones Bellarmine tells us truly that it is not the writing or printing that makes Scripture the Word of God but it is the Prime Vnerring Essentiall Truth God himselfe uttering and revealing it to his Church that makes it Verbum Dei the Word of God And this Word of God is uttered to men either immediately by God himselfe Father Sonne and Holy Ghost and so 't was to the Prophets and Apostles Or mediately either by Angels to whom God had spoken first and so the Law was given * Lex ordinata per Angelos in manu 〈◊〉 Gal. 3 19. Gal. 3. and so also the Message was delivered to the Blessed Virgin a S. Luk. 1. 0. S. Luke 1. or by the Prophets b The Holy Ghost c. which spake by the Prophets in Symb. Nicen. and Apostles and so the Scriptures were delivered to the Church But their being written gave them no Authority at all in regard of themselves VVritten or unwritten the VVord was the same But it was written that it might bee the better c Nam Psiudoprophetae etiam viventibus adâ—…c Apostolis multas fingebant corruptelas sub â—…oc praetextu titulo quasi ab Apostolis vivà veccessent traditae propter hanc ipsâ—…m causam Apostoli Doctrinam suam coeperunt Literis comprehendere Ecclesiis commendare Chem. Exam. Concil Trid. de Traditionibus sub octavo genere Tradit And so also Iansâ—…n Comment in S. Ioh 5. 47. Sicut enim firmius est quod mandatur Literis ita est culpabiliâ—…s majus non credere Scriptis quam non credere Verbis preserved and continued with the more integrity to the use of the Church and the more faithfully in our d Labilis est memoria ideo indigâ—…mus Scripturâ Dicendum quod verum est sed hoc non habet nisi ex inundantia peccatorum Hent a Gand. Sum. p. 1 Ar. 8. q. 4. sine Christus ipse de pectore morituro Testamentum transfert in tabulas diù duraturas Optat. L 5. Christus ipse non transtulit sed ex Optati sew entiâ Ejus Inspiratione si non Iussâ—… Apostoli transtulerunt Memories And you have been often enough told were truth and not the maintaining of a party the thing you seek for that if you will shew us any such unwritten word of God delivered by his Prophets and Apostles we will acknowledge it to be Divine and Infallible So written or unwritten that shall not stumble us But then A. C. must not tell us at least not thinke we shall swallow it into our Beliefe that every thing which he sayes is the unwritten VVord of God is so indeed I know Bellarmine hath written a whole Booke * Bellar. L. 4. De Verbo Dei non script De Verbo Dei non scripto of the Word of God not written in which he handles the Controversie concerning Traditions And the Cunning is to make his weaker Readers believe that all that which He and his are pleased to call Traditions are by and by no lesse to be received and honoured then the unwritten word of God ought to be Whereas 't is a thing of easie knowledge That the unwritten VVord of God and Tradition are not Convertible Termes that is are not all one For there are many Vnwritten VVords of God which were never delivered over to the Church for ought appeares And there are many Traditions affirmed at least to be such by the Church of Rome which were never warranted by any unwritten Word of God First That there are many unwritten words of God which were never delivered over to the Church is manifest For when or where were the words which Christ spake to his Apostles during the a Acts 1. 3. forty dayes of his Conversing with them after his Resurrection first delivered over to the Church or what were the unwritten Words He then spake If neither Heâ—… nor His Apostles or Evangelists have delivered them to the Church the Church ought not to deliver them to her Children Or if she doe b Annunciare aliquid Christianis Catholicis praeter id quod acceperunt nunquam licuit nusquam licet nunquam licebit Vincen. Lir. c. 14. Et praeâ—…ipit nihil aliu â—…innovari nisi quo 〈◊〉
but so not as it is the Baptisme of Hereticks but as it is the Baptisme of Christ. Iust as we approve the Baptisme of Adulterers Idolaters Witches and yet not as'tis theirs but as 't is Christs Baptisme For none of these for all their Baptisme shall inherit the Kingdome of God And the Apostle reckons Hereticks among them a Gal. 5. 19. 20. 21. Galat. 5. And againe afterwards It is not therefore yours saith †Non ergo vestrum est quod dâ—…struere metuimus sed Christi quod in 〈◊〉 per se 〈◊〉 est S. Aug. Ibid. Saint Augustine which wee feare to destroy but Christs which even among the Sacrilegious is of and in it selfe holy Now you shall see how full this comes home to our Petilianist A. C. for hee is one of the Contracters of the Church of Christ to Rome as the Donatists confined it to Africke And he cries out That a Possibility of Salvation A. C. p. 6â—… is a free Confession of the Adversaries and is of force against them and to bee thought extorted from them by force of Truth it selfe I Answer I doe indeed for my part leaving other men free to their owne judgement acknowledge a Possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church But so as that which I grant to Romanists is not as they are Romanists but as they are Christians that is as they believe the Creed and hold the Foundation Christ himselfe not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the grosse Superstitions of the Romish Church Nor doe I feare to destroy quod ipsorum est that which is theirs but yet I dare not proceed so roughly as with theirs or for theirs to deny or weaken the Foundation which is Christs even among them and which is and remaines holy even in the midst of their Superstitions And I am willing to hope there are many among them which keep within that Church and yet wish the Superstitions abolished which they know and which pray to God to forgive their errours in what they know not and which hold the Foundation firme and live accordingly and which would have all things amended that are amisse were it in their power And to such I dare not deny a Possibility of Salvation for that which is Christs in them though they hazzard themselves extremely by keeping so close to that which is Superstition and in the Case of Images comes too neare Idolatry Nor can A. C. shift this A. C. p. 66. off by adding living and dying in the Romane Church For this living and dying in the Romane Church as is before expressed cannot take away the Possibility of Salvation from them which believe and repent of whatsoever is errour or sinne in them be it sinne knowne to them or be it not But then perhaps A. C. will reply that if this be so I must then maintaine that a Donatist also living and dying in Schisme might be saved To which I answer two wayes First that a plaine honest Donatist having as is confessed true Baptisme and holding the Foundation as for ought I know the †For though Prateolus will make Donatus and from him the Donatists to be guilty of an impious Heresie I doubt he meanes Arrianisme though he name it not in making the Sonne of God lesse then the Father and the Holy Ghost lesse then the Sonne L. 4. de Haeres Har. 14. yet these things are most manifest out of S. Aug. concerning them who lived with them both in time and place and understood them and their Tenets farre better then Prateolus could And first S. Aug. tels us concerning them Arriani Patris Filii Spiritus Sancti diversas substantias esse dicunt Donatista autem unam Trinitatis substantiam confitentur So they are no Arrians Secondly Si aliqui corum minorem Filium esse dixerunt quà m Pater est ejusdem tamen substantiae non negârunt But this is but si aliqui if any so 't was doubtfull this too though Prateolus delivers it positively Thirdly Plurimi verò in iis hoc se dicunt omnino credere de Patre Filio Spiritu Sancto quod Cathilica credit Ecclesia Necipsa cum illis vertitur Questio sed de sola Communione infoeliciter litigant c. De sola Onely about the Vnion with the Church Therefore they erred not in Fundamentall Points of Faith And Lastly All that can farther be said against them is That some of them to win the Goths to them when they were powerfull said Hoc se Credere quod illi Credunt Now the Goths for the most were Arrians But then saith S. Aug. they were but nonnulli some of them And of this some it was no more Certaine then sicut audivimus as we have heard S. Aug. knew it not And then if it were true of some yet Majorum suorum Authoritate convincuntur Quia nec Donatus ipse sic credidisse asseritur de cujus parte se esse gloriantur S Aug. Epist. 50. Where Prateolus is againe deceived for he sayes expresly that Donatus affirmed the Sonne to be lesse then the Father Impius ille asserebat c. But then indeed and which perchance deceived Prateolus beside Donatus the founder of this Heresie there was another Donatus who succeeded Majorinus at Carthage and he was guilty of the Heresie which Prateolus mentions Et extant scripta ejus ubi apparet as S. Aug. confesses L. 1. de Haereâ—… Har. 69. But then S. Aug. adds there also nec facilè in iis quisquam that scarce any of the Donatists did so much as know that this Donatus held that Opinion much lesse did they believe it themselves S. Aug. Ibid. Donatists did and repenting of what ever was sinne in him and would have repented of the Schisme had it beene known to him might be saved Secondly that in this Particular the Romanist and the Donatist differ much And that therefore it is not of necessary coÌ„sequence that if a Romanist now upon the Conditions before expressed may be saved Therefore a Donatist heretofore might For in regard of the Schisme the Donatist was in one respect worse and in greater danger of damnation then the Romanist now is And in an other respect better and in lesse danger The Donatist was in greater danger of damnation if you consider the Schisme it selfe then for they brake from the Orthodox Church without any cause given them And here it doth not follow if the Romanist have a Possibility of Salvation therefore a Donatist hath But if you consider the Cause of the Schisme now then the Donatist was in lesse danger of Damnation then the Romanist is Because the Church of Rome gave the first and the greatest cause of the Schisme as is prooved †§. 21. N. c. before And therefore here it doth not follow That if a Donatist have possibility of Salvation Therefore a Romanist hath For a lesser Offender may have that possibility of safety
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is reproach or infamie So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies the holding of the entire Faith in such holinesse of life and conversation as is without all infamy and reproach That is as our English renders that Creed exceeding well Which Faith unlesse a man do keep whole and * Sic Ecclesia dicitur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eph. 5. 27. in veteri Glossario Immaculatus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 undefiled even with such a life as Momus himselfe shall not be able to carpe at So Athanasius who certainly was passing able to expresse himselfe in his owne language in the beginning of that his Creed requires That we keepe it entire without diminution and undefiled without blame And at the end that we believe it faithfully without wavering But Inviolate is the mistaken word of the old Interpreter and with no great knowledge made use of by A. C. And then fourthly though this be true Divinity that he which hopes for salvation must believe the whole Creed and in the right sense too if he be able to comprehend it yet I take the true and first meaning of Inviolate could Athanasius his word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 have signified so not to be the holding of the true sense but not to offer violence or a forced sense or meaning upon the Creed which every man doth not that yet believes it not in a true sense For not to believe the true sense of the Creed is one thing But 't is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it Fiftly a reason would be given also why A. C. is so earnest for the whole faith and bawkes the word which goes with it which is holy or undefiled For Athanasius doth alike exclude from salvation those which keepe not the Catholike Faith holy as well as these which keepe it not whole I doubt this was to spare many of his †§. 33. Nu. 6. holy Fathers the Popes who were as farre as any the very lewdest among men without exception from keeping the Catholike Faith holy Sixtly I agree to the next part of his Exposition That a man that will be saved must believe the whole Creed for the true formall reason of divine Revelation For upon the Truth of God thus revealed by himselfe lies the Infallible certainty of the Christian Faith But I do not grant that this is within the Compasse of S. Athanasius his word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor of the word Inviolate But in that respect 't is a meere straine of A. C. And then lastâ—…y though the whole Catholike Church be sufficient in applying this to us and our Beliefe not our Understanding which A. C. is at A. C. p. 70. againe yet Infallible She is not in the proposall of this Revelation to us by every of her Pastours Some whereof amongst you as well as others neglect or forget at least to feed Christ's sheepe as Christ and his Church hath fed them But now that A. C. hath taught us as you see the meaning of S. Athanasius in the next place he tels us A. C. p. 70. That if we did believe any one Article we finding the same formall Reason in all and applied sufficiently by the same meanes to all wou'd easily believe all Why surely we do not believe any one Article onely but all the Articles of the Christian Faith And we believe them for the same formall Reason in all namely Because they are revealed from and by God and sufficiently applied in his Word and by his Churches Ministration But so long as they do not believe all in this sort saith A. C. Looke you He A. C. p. 70. tels us we do not believe all when we professe we do Is this man become as God that he can better tell what we believe them we our selves Surely we do believe all and in that sort too Though I believe were S. Athanasius himselfe alive againe and a plaine man should come to him and tell him he believed his Creed in all and every particular he would admit him for a good Catholike Christian though he were not able to expresse to him the formall reason of that his beliefe Yea but saith A. C. while they will as all Heretickes doe make choice of what they will and what they A. C. p. 70. will not believe without relying upon the Infallible Authority of the Catholike Church they cannot have that one saving Faith in any one Article Why but whatsoever Hereticks doe we are not such nor do we so For they which believe all the Articles as once againe I tell you we do make no choice And we do relie upon the Infallible Authority of the Word of God and the whole Catholike Church And therefore we both can have and have that one saving Faith which believes all the Articles entirely though we cannot believe that any particular Church is infallible And yet againe A. C. will not thus be satisfied but on he goes and adds That although we believe the same A. C. p. 71. truth which other good Catholikes doe in some Articles yet not believing them for the same formall reason of Divine Revelation sufficiently applied by Infallible Church Authority c. we cannot be said to have one and the same Infallible and Divine Faith which other good Catholike Christians have who believe the Articles for this formall Reason sufficiently made knowne to them not by their owne fancy nor the fallible Authority of humane deductions but by the Infallible Authority of the Church of God If A. C. will still say the samething I must still give the same answer First he confesses we believe the same Truth in some Articles I pray marke his phrase the same Truth in some Articles with other good Catholike Christians so farre his pen hath told Truth against his will for he doth not I wot well intend to call us Catholikes and yet his pen being truer then himselfe hath let it fall For the word other cannot be so used as here it is but that we as well as they must be good Catholikes For he that shall say the old Romans were valiant as well as other men supposes the Romans to be valiant men And he that shall say The Protestants believe some Articles as well as other good Catholikes must in propriety of speech suppose them to be good Catholikes Secondly as we do believe those some Articles so do we believe them and all other Articles of Faith for the same formall reason and so applied as but just * §. 38. Nu. 13. before I have expressed Nor do we believe any one Article of Faith by our own fancy or by fallible Authority of humane deductions but next to the Infallible Authority of God's Word we are guided by his Church But then A. C. steps into a Conclusion whither we cannot A. C. p. 71. follow him For he sayes that the Articles to be believed must be sufficiently made