that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened â—hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob â—lip 1.9 â—lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike â—nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they theÌ„selues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. â—â—t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen theÌ„ as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatioÌ„ in this matter of the doctours My secoÌ„d is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. â—â—7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these
indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet â—ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth theÌ„ they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must coÌ„sider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. coâ—â— Genâ—â— howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and â—here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the coÌ„â—cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what faitâ— baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al meÌ„ saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne theÌ„ out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister doâ—h nowe in english wilâ— thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the pâ—â—â—st water and saide in laâ—in Ego baptizo te in nomine â—atris c. we say the same in engâ—â—â— I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then
them and marke them which argued a touch in their hearts more then the worlde saw or they had strength and boldnesse publikely to make shewe of One mother I coulde name to you that albeit shee did as the time then was yet hadde shee an olde Psalter in english and before her children beeing younge would often reade on it giuing them admonition in diuers points according to her motherly care and by name when shee came to those wordes They haue eies and see not feete haue they and goe not hands and handle not noses and smell not neither is there any breath in their mouthes cursed are all they that make them and so are all they that put their trust in them Marke children would shee say what those Images you see in the Churches bee they cannot see goe handle or smell they haue no life and therefore we may not worship or trust in them they are cursed that make them as you heare and no doubt but there will come a time when they will bee taken away By which we plainely see there was more in many of our good forefathers for doe you thinke god was the god onely of this good woman more I say then the course of time yeelded theÌ„ and therefore great testimonies that god saued them euen in the furnace and in the Lyons denne that is in the darke time and time of daunger Therefore farre be it from vs to iudge of them otherwise then well They liue with the Lord God I most comfortably hope M. This reuereÌ„t coÌ„ceit of your elders sonne I trust is a signe of Gods grace in you and your hope is grounded vpon good presumptions But why then may not wee nowe follow their course as I said hope of like mercy also with them why we may not imitate â—â—r forefathers S. Deare mother let not me answere you but heare and weigh with your selfe what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answereth whose words are these I know you vnderstand them Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti post inspirationem verò revelationem factam qui in eo quo errauerat perseuerat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat praesumptione enim at que obstinatione superatur M. Me thinks I vnderstand this sentence to be thus much in english To one that of simplicity erreth pardon may be giuen but who so after knowledge reuealed and gratiously offered continueth in his errour that man or that woman sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance for he or shee is wholly carried away vvith presumption and obstinacie Which senteÌ„ce if it be that godly fathers surely it ought to be well weighed of al that mean not to be so ouercome And for my part I doe thinke and will thinke of it S. Surely mother they are his very wordes and for the sence well translated by you And blessed be God for your good taking of these graue speeches of great lights and worthy teachers in their times The wordes are in his 62. epistle as I shall shewe you when I come to the booke And since my wordes finde comfortable fauour with you let me I pray further shew you how Satan hath alwaies vsed to deceiue men by these meanes and howe God hath giuen councell to the contrary Cresconius the heretique said to S. Augustin Our fathers receiued this of their fathers before theÌ„ And S. Augustin answered him sed errantes ab errantibus but them men deceiued receiued it of men that were deceiued before them Even as the Iewes at this day receued of their fathers and their fathers likewise receiued it before them of their fathers and so from father to father since the suffering of Christ which is now almost 1567 yeares that Christ did not rise againe but that his disciples came whilest the watchmen slept stole his body away Now is this wicked falshood true because by tradition from father to sonne it hath beene continued and taught amongst the Ievves for so many yeres god forbid We beleeue the contrary as an article of our faith and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carrie vs into great errors if vve take not heede This notable ansvvere of S. Augustin and this worthy example woulde neuer be forgotten Another great heretique called Eutiches that denied the humanity of our Sauiour beeing conuented for it in the Councell of Chalcedon fled likewise to this defence and cried â—ct 1. Sic à progenitoribus meis accipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum consecratus deo inea opto mori this faith I haue receiued from my auncestoures and forefathers in this faith I was borne and baptized and in this faith I desire to die And yet that faith an horrible heresie as you haue heard denying that Iesus Christ was man Auxentius the Arrian heretique made this his refuge and told theÌ„ that sought his reformation Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum ita crediat credo Even as from mine infancy I haue heene taught so I haue beleeued and doe beleeue S. Hilary reporteth thus of him By which examples wee plainely see what an olde ginne of Satan this is to intangle vs with the doings of our forefathers and to make vs beleeue that the following of them in all things is a praise for vs and that we ought not in any thing to slippe away from them But it is not soe God hath otherwise taught vs auncient fathers haue othewise preached and written and the matter of our eternall saluation is weighty We must beware vnto the former examples ad that of the Iewes so notable in the prophet where beeing rebuked of the prophet Ieremy for their Idolatry God so commanding him they flatly answered as these heretiques before named and as they of the Romish Church still daily answere The worde which thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lord we will not heare it of thee but as our forefathers haue done our kings and our princes in the city ot Iudah so will we doe euen whatsoeuer goeth out of our owne mouth as to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offrings vnto her for then had we plentie of victualls and were well and felt no euill but since we left of to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offerings vnto her we haue scarcenesse of all things and haue bene consumed by the sword and famine c. I doubt not mother but you marke this place well for indeede it is a verie notable and pregnant example to this ende we nowe speak of and the words are as it we heard all the Romish Catholicks speake together so iumpe they with them And so like is Satan to himselfe in his trickes and deuises to deceiue Gods people But nowe what saith God Doeth be like of this answere and of this heady and vnadvised following of their auncestoures No No neither euer will he like of it
so soone but I will enioyne you to speake plaine and to tell me in earnest what you meant by safety S. I beseech you good mother let me goe no further in this matter my comming home to see you would doe me litle good if through my folly and vnapt speech I should procure your mislike M. I tell you againe it shall not bee so and therefore neither stand with me any longer nor feare but tell me your meaning S. Surely vpon your kind promise of pardon I confesse I meant safetie from mis-instruction in religion whilest I was young and easy to be led by those whome I reuerenced M. Ah sir nowe you deale plainely with me indeede and I see as plainely the fruites of your vniuersity companie and of your fathers care euen to make a conceited young man of you before you haue ripenesse of yeares to discerne in matters of such weight as religion is S. Good mother for mine vniuersitie companie my fathers most louing care I blesse God and thanke them both as I am bound neither shall you by gods grace finde me conceyted oâ— head strong aboue my true knowledge mine harty praier is for humility and against pride M. Sonne it is well said and so praying assure your selfe god will heare your request and grant your desire but yet for your knowledge in diuinity I hope it is not so great but that a poore woman that hath neithr Logicke nor Rhetorick yet a little latine may argue the case with you and aske you of your newe doctrine that I see hath gotten some fauour in your eies howe you dare take liking of it and rest vpon it since by all truely learned it hath beene called and still is reputed and helde for very feareful and damnable heresie Alas poore boy if thou shouldst miscarrie thy father should answer God for thee and what a griefe it is to me to thinke either of the one or the other let my teares testifie S. Deare mother quiet your selfe and thinke of neither for by Gods grace there shall be no cause M. No cause when now being but a youth in comparison you are as full of heresie as an egge is full of meate and so like to tast either euer or long of that liquour that first hath bene powred into you S. You are tolde it is heresie by those that are not truely learned as you tearme them but ignorant and so lead you and others awry with them but god is able in his good time to let you see it is trueth and no heresie M. That should be a great chaunge sonne as I thinke and because I could as willingly heare you as any and you seme to thinke the matter plain I pray you let me heare what you can say and what our new masters haue taught you S. Your firme and feruent loue to me deare mother giues me encouragement to speake boldly vnto you what I am able yet within tearmes of duty and reuerence euer due vnto you but if you will charge me to speake any more double againe vnto me your comfortable promise of pardon in all things for my hart trembleth for feare to offend you any waies M. Sonne I doe double it and assuredly promise it therefore be not afraid your respectiue affection to me I note it shall not hurt you S. My answere then good mother as neere as either memory or my note booke which I haue also about me will serue shall be the verie wordes of such worthy men as haue written on our side that therby both the want of authoritie which is in my youth may be supplied with their credit and the profit of reading our bookes which papists make so dangerous better obserued by as many as are not desperatly sicke of rebellion and contumacy against the Lord. First therefore touching the name of heresie Heresie which euen now you mentioned and I know you often heare out of their mouthes who resort vnto you thus hath it beene answered on our side many a time and often As the accusation is bitter and grievous yea euen such as the old father S. Ierome saith No man ought to be patient no not in the suspit oÌ„ thereof so is it not new or straunge to haue gods truth slandered wiâ—h this name and therfore it is a good caueat not to be carried away with the name till we haue well examined the matter and found it to agree with the name and rightly to be so called which that we may do we must knowe that for iust proofe of heresie two things are neccessarily required first that it be an Errour in matter of Christian faith secondly that it be stoutly and obstinatly maintained otherwise an errour in Gods truth without obstinate maintenance is not an heresie S. Austen saith therefore Errare possum haereticus esse non possum In an errour I may be but an heretique I cannot be meaning because he intended not obstinately to maintaine an errour Whervnto is agreeable that good saying of S. Hilary Illis in eo quod nesciunt potest adhuc in tuto â—sse salus sicredant â—â—lar de Trin. 6. tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt qui negas quod iam ignorare non potes They for as much as they knovve not the truth may haue their salvation in fafety if aftervvard they beleeue but all hope of health is shut vp from thee forasmuch as thou deniest that thing vvhich thou canst not choose but knowe See howe daungerous wilfull and obstinate maintenance of an error is but neither of these two points will be found in vs and therefore farre are wee from iustly deseruing the name of heretiques or our true faith the name of heresie This is an olde practise of Satan to deale thus with Gods trueth and the professours thereof S. Paul was called before the iudges to make answer to a matter of heresie as you may read to your great coÌ„tentment in the Acts of the Apostles and he answered Act. 24. that indeede according to that way which they called heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers But for all their calling and bawling it was far from beeing so because he beleeued all things which were written in the law the Prophets and for that his manner of worshippe was wholly agreeable to the scriptures which no heresie can be Christ our deare Sauiour for no other cause was called a Samaritane but onely for that he was thought to haue fallen to a certaine newe religion and to be the author of a new sect in Apologeâ— Tertullian witnesseth that in his time euen this very religion which wee now professe was called a sect and heresie that thereby Princes eares might be stopped from hearing any thing spokeÌ„ or written in defence of the Christians Eusebius doth the like 4. c. 18. saying that the religion of Christ was called impiorum Christian orum Haeresis The heresie of the wicked Christians Epist ad
to the worldes ende Reade I beseech you the chapter your selfe and you shall see the fierce wrath of the Lord against them for this answere and for this doing He sweareth by his great name a dreadfull punishment that he will not vouchsafe to haue his name any more mentioned by them but he will watch ouer them for euill and not for good till they all be consumed by the sworde and by the famine with an vtter destruction This is the liking that God hath of following others before vs and of alleadging their examples without due care and consideration of their doings whether they were answerable to Gods word the rule of his liking and pleasure yea or no. By his Prophet Ezechiel againe he instructeth vs of his pleasure in this matter â— 20. v. 18. and deliuereth it for his absolute commandement In statutis patruÌ„ nolite ambulare vvalke ye not in the ordinances of your fathers neither obserue their manners meaning rashly vnadvisedly hand ouer head without examination howe these ordinances and manners pleased God For so saieth the prophet you may defile your selves either vvith Idols â— .19 or some other thing displeasing to God But if you vvill euer be sure and safe followe the true rule and the onely right vvay I am the Lord your God vvalke in my statutes keepe my commandements c. Which sound counsell the godly father had his eye vpon when he saide Non debemus attendere quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putauerit sedquid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit vve may not regard what some before vs thought meete to be done but what he who vvas before all men Iesus Christ our deare Sauiour did that that is our rule in whatsoeuer we are to imitate him I cannot omit to remember Lactantius his wordes in this matter Deorum cultores libentèr errant stultitiae favent suae à quibus sirationem requiras per suasionis eius Institut l. 5. â— nulla possunt reddere sed ad maiorum iudicia confugiunt quòd illi sapientes fuerint The vvorshippers of many Gods saith he doe vvillingly erre and favour their owne folly of vvhome if you aske a reason of their perswasion and opinion they can giue none but straight flie to the iudgement of their forefathers saying they vvere wise men c. And is not this the verie answer of Romish Catholicks at this day Can they giue any reason a number of them but euen this now mentioned of heretickes and Idolatours I vvas borne and baptized in this faith and mine owne father and mother charged me vpon their blessing to be of this opinion c. they were as wise men and women as we and such like But how good these answers bee you see if you either regard scripture or fathers to be taught by them Lactantius nippeth this folly we see by his words and euer it shall be derided Our soules cost more then that should pinne them on any mens sleeues were they neuer so neere or deare vnto vs. Clemens Alexand hath the like good speach Alii dicuÌ„t im pium est si non colamus ea quae nobis tradita sunt à patribus nostris religionem praevaricamur à matoribus datam Hac ratione sicuius pater latro fuerit aut sicuius leno à patribus sibi traditam consuetudinem mutare no debet nec ad meliorem viam à paternis erroribus reuocari Others say it is a great wickednesse if we worship not those things which are by our forefathers deliuered vnto vs and we betray the religion of our fathers but by this reason if any mans father were a theife or a bawde he ought not to chaunge the custome deriued from his father nor be reduced to a better way from his fathers errour Thus derideth he againe this fonde kinde of argument My father did so and so his father before him again therefore I will doe so anâ vvill not bee persvvaded Yea assuredly thus haue euer all truely instructed derided it And it neuer was nor neuer shall be a fitte aunswere for a childe of God When I thinke of this matter sometimes I make a comparison betwixt the body and the soule and I aske of a Romish Catholicke whether if his father and diuers others of his auncestoures had a bodily disease whereof they died for want of skill to cure it he nowe hauing the same successiuely after them and the cure well knowen would yet wilfully die of his infirmity as his forefathers did rather then swarue from the example and be cured He will answere no. And yet in the matter of the soule which is farre aboue the bodie hath not grace to consider what an absurd answer it is to alleadge his father vnlesse he know by the rule of gods word that his father indeed was to be followed So you see deare mother both your questions answered and how it is no new matter but a very ancient subtiltie to entangle men and womens mindes with the examples of their forefathers because naturally we all reuerence and loue those of whome we are descended But it is no right way For we both may and ought sometimes to dissent from them and yet not sit in iudgement vpon them as though they were damned God beeing indeede able to saue them as we haue heard neither ought we thereby to take occasion of presumption to condemne the grace offered vs though denied to others as we ought not to refuse a bodily medicine to saue our life because our fathers know it not Surely if they had had the light that is vouchsafed vs they would haue excelled vs as farre as angels excell men M. I see sonne gods spirit bloweth where it listeth and happy is the man and woman whose eare he openneth To heare is good and either to stoppe our eaâ—e or to harden our heart with a premeditate opinion is most dangerous for as the Apostle perswadeth to hospitality because so men haue receiued angels into their houses so by hearing is god receiued who made the angels and by refusing to heare the doore is shut vpon him most dangerously and be excluded S. O deare Mother giue your owne flesh and blood leaue with knees of heart bowed before the Lord to reioyce for this your holy speech to praise the name of the most high whose mercy hath neither bottom nor measure and to beseech him for his sweete sonnes sake to goe forward in mercy and pitty towards his deceiued children that they may see their saluation in Iesus Christ embrace the trueth and be saued M. To this your prayer sonne I say with all mine heart amen But yet I haue not done with you I haue heard some say that if this way that you so dislike to follow the church of Rome and to beleeue as we are taught by the successours of Peter were to goe astraie why hath it not beene noted so till now of late yeares Can any of
made him thinke when he heard of Christ that Iohn was risen againe whome he had beheaded In the Acts of the Apostles certaine Iewes more then fortie men bound theÌ„selues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke till they had slaine Paule 〈…〉 And must they needes either kill that blessed Apostle or pine themselues to death by refusing food because they had sworne God forbidde I assure my selfe you like better of the Apostles words we must obey God rather then men And god saith thou shalt do no murther Gehezy in the booke of the kings sware that he vvould followe after Naaman and take somwhat of him he kept that vnlawfull oath and by the feareful plague that fel vpon him you may see and satisfie your selfe howe it pleased God Dauid a man worthie following tooke another course as we reade in his storie when he had sworne to kill Naball and not to leaue a man of his house to looke vppon a wall yet meeting with his wife Abigail by the way and admonished by her of so hard a course he changed his minde blessed God that had sent her as a mean to saue him from shedding blood and thought so wel of the woman that after the death of her husband he married her Had Dauid said as deceiued soules nowe a daies doe I haue sworn and I must keepe mine oath greatly had he sinned against the Lord to his owne hurt This is an example chronicled vp of God in his owne booke to be followed of all those that feare him An oath is ordained of God to ende strife beeing lawfully taken and to strengthen truth Firma mentu veriâ—aâ—â—on vinculum iniquitatis but in no case to be vniculum iniquitatis a bond to tie vs to iniquity Most worthily therfore answered Agesilaus when one said Thou hast promisea Yea if it be iust saith he otherwise loquutus sum non promisi I spake but it vvas no promise meaning that no promise should be vrged beyond right May we thinke that he by the light he had would haue stood vpon a wicked oath no no assuredly Non praestabit fides quod exhibuit infidelitas Faith may not performe vhat vvant of faith vnlawfully svvare and vowed By the commoÌ„ law which is â—he Popes owne law who sware in his heat was to be enioined pennance because calor iracundiae non excusat à toto sed à tanto The heate of anger excuseth not from all fault but from so great a fault neither are they to be accounted periured who can shewe impossibilitie or impietie in their performaÌ„ce your hart meant not to sweare to euill it then it prooue euil and so you change the fault is in the matter not in you M. What shall such do then S. Surely choose rather to aske god barrely mercy for a rash and ignorant oath theÌ„ by keeping the same to adde sinne vnto sinne yea a farre greater to a lesser for in presumption to offend is the next consin to the sin against the holy ghost Beware that saying in the Psalm 〈…〉 They encourage themselues in mischeife that is are bold and hardie to take heart to do euill after they are tolde of it and knowe that it is euill Remember that in Gods law there was a sacrifice appointed to make an attonement for one that had sworne to doe euill â—vit 5. sal 5â— A sacrifice also remaineth now euen a troubled spirit sorrowful for mine vnaduised oath mine vnlawfull and wicked oath against my God against my prince against my country to obey a forrainer a straunger whome I neuer saw neuer am like to see against mine own soules health and to my endlesse woe O Lord O Lord a broken contrit heart thou shalt neuer despise and therfore strengthen thy poore creature to turne vnto thee and rather to lament one sinne then still still to sin and so by an imagination of constancy to perish eternally for their contumacy M. Amen sonne amen for sure it is plaine that you haue saide to this point and sweet is trueth when one doth tast it But the worlde is so full of prittle prattle when a man turneth that one will be ashamed to heare their speech 〈…〉 some are hindred euen thus S. No questioÌ„ mother but Satan vseth this amongest other meanes to keepe some backe froÌ„ the truth The prâ—â—â— iâ— pratle of the world keepe some from tâ—â— truth it is a known weaknes in our nature to shrinke at the talk of meÌ„ But the proverb is old a wonder lasteth but 9. nights folly will die and trueth get strength god is in this chaunge and it cannot doe ill Ang. de 〈◊〉 5. c. 1â— To haue it verified of vs which Christ spake of his enemies is a fearefull thing namely that they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God The blessed Apostle saith Ioh. 1â— â—â— Goe I about to please men surely If I should doe so I were not the servant of Christ And why Our Sauiour Christs words giue one reason Gal. 1. â—0 because such cannot be tru beleeuers For how can they beleeue saith he which receiue honour one of another and seeke not the honour vvhich commeth of God alone There is extant in print a little booke containing the recantations of William Tedder and Anthony Tyrrel sometime two seminarie priests of the English colledge in Rome as they were seuerally pronounced by them at Pauls crosse in the yere 1588. wherein they both shew what letted theÌ„ in their times to be reformed first W. Ted saith one great cause was this we now speak of the feare of wordly shame temporall discredit but saith he I did not consider then or I cared not for that sentence of our sauiour Every one that confesseth me before men him vvill I confesse also before my father vvhich is in heauen 〈◊〉 10. and whosoeuer shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and a sinfull nation the sonne of man shall be ashamed of him 〈◊〉 8. â— when he commeth in the glory of his father with his angells This was the cause that made me take a preposterous way turning all things to mine owne credit when I should haue turned them to the glory of God according to our Sauiours councell seeke first the kingdome of God c. So thinking to get credit by mine obstinacy 〈◊〉 6. I did loose saith he the fauour of God the loue of my soueraigne and the good will of all true subiects The other cause saith he was the tickling of vainglorie and this I am sure doth hold most of the contrarie side in their peruerse obstinacy howesoeuer they bragge that they seeke nothing by their dealings but the glorie of God I thought it a goodly thing and worthie commendation to defend an euill cause by probable reasons yet I know it was a hard thing for Anaxagoras to prooue that snow was blacke or incke white
all that be not malitiously froward yea all of them both Clergie and laity promised in baptisme to hold this faith therefore they may be compelled to performe their promise Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius and other Christian princes with conuenient sharpnes of positiue lawes amerced banished and diuersly punished heretickes And these coactions when the Donatists railed on them with open mouth S. Augustin defended and commended writing to Vincentius thus Thinkest thou saith he that no man ought to the forced vnto righteousnes â—pist 49. wheÌ„ thou readest that the master said to his seruaÌ„ts compest them to come in and also that Paul was forced by losse of his eies a greater punishment then losse of landes and goodes Markâ— Christ here first compelling after teaching striking then comforting Let them not mislike that they are forced but examine whereto they are forced How doe kings saith he serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with religious seuerity those things that are done against the commandement of God as Hezekiah did by destroying the groaues and temples built against the precepts of God as did Iosiah the king of Niniveh Nabuchodonosor c. S. Ambrose saith Quoniam futurum iudicium Deus statuit nullum perire vult hoc in seculo rectores ordinauit vt terrore interposito omnibus velut paedagogi sint in epist ad Rom. c. 13. ne in paenam incidaÌ„t futuri iudicei For asmuch as God hath appointed a future and finall iudgement in the vvorld to come and vvould not that any should perish he hath ordained rulers in this present worlde to be as it were schoolemasters to all to keepe them through terrour that they incurre not the penaltie of the iudgement to come Thus we see scripture reason practise fathers all allowing compulsion of an erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge which surely is enough to any moderate mind desiring satisfactioÌ„ in true simplicitie and not making couers for vngodly obstinacie in subtile hypocrisy M. Sonne your answeres are so reasonable that I will still obiect to heare your answeres What if I say God hath made vs free therefore there is no reason any should be compelled S. Then will I answere Good Mother that euen our first parentes who had freewill had also both a lawe giuen them of God and a penaltie added to the same if they should transgresse it much more now then may the like be done when we haue both loste our selues and our freewill to vse the wordes of S. Austin By no lawe is the will compelled for that still is either free or it looseth his name of will But men according to their bodies may be forced as well to keepe the commandements of the first table concerning dutie to God as the commandements of the second table concerning dutie to men M. But againe I vvill say this maketh men hypocrites when outwardly they doe that which in their hearts they mislike S. And againe I answere that the drift of the magistrate is not to make them hypocrits but by these meanes to drawe them willingly to doe that which thy are enioyned And if it be not so that is their fault not the magistrates So did God with Ionas Paul and others So saith S Augustin of his owne cirtie fallen to Donatisme ug contr audenâ—â— epiâ—â—m l. 2. c. 17. that by outvvard lavves they were brought to invvard knovvledge and so he saw the benefit of this course that the sword should raigne with the word although at first he saith it vvas his opinion that none should be compelled before he vvere perswaded And S Chrysostome saith Multi sunt qui cùm virtutem primùm respectu magistratus exercuerunt posted etiam illam propter Dei timorem amplectuntur a Spist ad 〈◊〉 c. 13. Many men vvhereas at first they be haue themselues vertuously in regard of the magistrate and for feare of punishment afterwarde doe it gladly euen for feare of God and in reuerence of his maiestie VVe see the iudgement of this holy father that compulsion by the magistrate is necessarie and profitable though at first it procure but externall obedience and his reason which followeth is very good Crassiores enim saith he non adeo futura tangunt atque praesentia ibidem for carnall men are not so much touched vvith future as present thinges that is as I vnderstand him the torments of hell in the world to come doe not so much preuaile with them as the punishment of the Magistrate presently to be inflicted vpon them And that Epistle of S. Augustin is most worthie often reading his 48 epistle M. Yet forced Religion pleaseth not God S. Surely it lesse displeaseth with one part to doe my duty then with both partes to offend To come to Church with my bodies where by Gods grace I may be caught as S. Augustin was at S. Ambrose his sermon then both with bodie and mind to disobey not only prince but God A part of my duty is something though it be not all M. The magistrate cannot giue faith therefore he should not compell to faith S. He doth not compell to faith but to the meanes whereby God vseth to giue saith namely to hearing for faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God which howe profitable it may be by Gods mercy hath beene alreadie said and the words of Dauid shewe when he saith It is good for me that I haue beene in trouble c. and the words of Ieremy Castigasti Castigatus sum thou hast chastned me and I haue beene chastned The words of Esay Vexatio dat intellectum Vexation and trouble vvorke vnderstanding The wordes of wise Salomon Da sapienti occasionem sapientior erit giue a wise man occasion and he vvill be vviser M. Why then did not Christ coÌ„pell any S. Christ was no magistrate and we speake of the Magistrate and what he may doe by his office and authority giuen him by God M. Surely Sonne great is trueth and prevaileth I will trouble you no further in this matter S. I will then deare mother shut it vppe with S. Augustins wordes to the Donatists Non bene facere legibus cogimini sed malè facere prohibemini Nam bene facere nemo potest nisi elegerit c. You are not compelled by lawes to doe well but you are forbidden and hindered to doe euill For no man can doe well vnlesse he vvillingly doe it Timor autem paenaruÌ„ cisi nondum habeat dilectionem bonae conscientiae saltem intra claustra cogitationis coercet malam cupiditatem And the feare of punishmeÌ„t although it haue not as yet the loue of good conscience yet at least it restraineth euill within the hidden cogitation Numquid quia mores optimi libertate voluntatis eliguntur contra Petil. l. 2. c. 83. ideò mores pessimi non legis integritate puniuntur Because good manners are chosen by freedome of will therefore are not ill manners punished