of all men who can complaine iustly when it is spoken of The Lord put into the hart of our gouernours to redresse it The same Lord heape his graces vpon your Lordship with increase of honor in his world and euerlasting life in the world to come Amen Your Honours most humble to command GEORGE GIFFORD A Contention betweene a Papist and a Professor of the Gospell PAPIST I Am glad to see you well Sir for old acquaintance sake which I would be content to renew againe Pro. I am glad also that you are in health I saw you not a great while before now Pa. I pray ye what newes were ye at London lately What is become of the Catholikes I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower Pro. There hath béene disputation indeed by reason of a proude challenge which was made Pa. Ye might terme it a proude challenge if he had not bene able to make his part good But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly and with great victorie against all which were set vppon him Pro. Ye haue heard moe lies then that but I perceiue ye are a Papist or at the least a fauourer of Papists for they bragge that he did excellently although in very déede he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller Pa. Wherefore should ye call me Papist I am obedient to the lawes and do not refuse to go to the Church Pro. Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist Pa. A Church Papist what meane you by that Pro. Do you not know I will tell ye there are Papists which wil not come at the Church and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church of this latter sort it seemeth you are because ye go to the Church Pa. How can you tell what is in mens consciences you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply Pro. Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome Although the Church wals be thicke yet a man may espie them by some creuise Pa. Whereby do you know them so easily I pray by what notes can ye discerne them Pro. Some of them will not sticke to maintaine such popish opinions as they know there is no great danger of law for The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine speake of the mery world when there was lesse preaching and when all things were so cheape that they might haue xx egs for a penny Other there be which neuer name Papists but Catholikes if ye reason with them they do it but for arguments sake not that they say so but the Catholikes say so Another sort there are those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe they are Protestants but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery he doth reaile he is cholerike hee is vncharitable and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him these and suchlike are the notes to discerne a Church Papist Pa. You call them zealous Preachers they be very scismatikes and seduce the people with false doctrine and therfore such as be wise quiet and stayed men cannot abide them Pro. I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake you will not shew what the Catholikes say but what your self saith Had ye not great cause to be offended when I said ye were a Papist Pa. I thinke plaine dealing is best in very deed I take ye to be heretikes I am a Catholike Pro. You take vs to be heretikes but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues and far from true Catholikes Pa. Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church which hath euer condemned all heretikes If Catholikes be heretikes then are we also heretikes but this latter belongeth to you and all other which forsake the truth Pro. Nay those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold which hath alwaies condemned heretikes and therfore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs heretikes as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so Act. 24.14 You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith and therefore ye are no Catholikes Pa. We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith yours is new doctrine we beleeue as all our forefathers did If your doctrine be true then all our forefathers were damned for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue Pro. The maner of you Papistes is to affirme things very strongly but when ye shold proue them then are ye exceeding weake and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme as I am to remoue mountaines Pa. We may say so of you more rightly because you affirme much and proue litle I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken Pro. Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues if ye be let me heare how ye can disproue our faith and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith and which be heretickes Pa. I am very well content tell me what I shall begin withall Pro. Begin with those things which ye affirmed euen now proue that our doctrine is new that you beleeue as all the forefathers did that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith if ye cannot proue this then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth which is Gods word all other doctrines are of the diuell Pa. If that faith which you beleeue and doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers but it was not heard of in their daies neither was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach Therefore the proudest heretike of ye all shall neuer be able to shew that it is of antiquitie Pro. Here are ruffling words the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument yee might easily be dealt withall I confesse your Maior or first proposition of your argument to be true which is this if the doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers But your second which is this that our faith doctrine was not heard of in the dayes of the forefathers vntill Luther did set it abroch is most false for our doctrine is the holy word of God deliuered to the Church by the Apostles Prophets We beléeue as Adam Seth
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
to the worlds ende Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth Pro. It is indeed a certaine and sure thing that heretikes will lie and therefore you Papists whose Religion is a very hotch potch dunghill of all grosse heresies will not sticke at that But here is a great reason brought to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours The holy Fathers are like as all men may iudge to be on their side which succeede them which do most loue them honour them and commend them but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs which ye accuse to deface their honor And therefore they be on your side and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends Indeede we confesse that you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we But when the matter cōmeth to the due triall euery man shall easily perceiue that it doth not therefore follow that they be on your side because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe how can they take it well at your hands when ye play the arrant théeues and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods and to bring the same to them if not how should the blessed Virgin the holy Apostles other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends which rob and spoyle God of his honor and thrust Christ from his office to bestow vpon them No those honor them which follow their steps in giuing all honor to God they loued and held the truth which was dearer to them then their liues and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth Moreouer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God Thus Christ speaketh Woe be vnto you Scribes Pharisies Math. 23. ye Hypocrites because you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets garnish the Tombes of the righteous and ye say if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the Prophets Will you say that these did loue the Prophets which did so much hate Christ did they honour the Prophets and dishonour Christ Euen such are you ye honor the holy Saints of old but if they were aliue on earth ye would murder them In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning the Church of the Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church What say ye to this 2. Thes 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away the man of sinne should be set vp Reuel 13. And when Saint Iohn speaking of the same apostasie saith that all the world wondered and followed the beast And againe in the same Chapter he sayth that whosoeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed Reuel 13. and he caused all both small and great rich and poore bond and free to receiue a make in their right hand or in their forehead And that none might buy or sell but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast or the number of his name Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn speaketh of the woman persecuted by the Dragon Reuel 12. is meant of the Church for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter That the Dragon was wrath and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede which keepe the commandements of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Behold how he sheweth there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time times and halfe a time from the presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church if ye will vnderstand it so fully Pa. Must those things needs be expounded against vs Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome Pro. That Prophesie of S. Paule of the apostasie by the man of sinne and the description of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was so great decay of truth by Antichrist that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church séeing Antichrist was the head and al things were done at his will appointment Pa. You would make the world beleeue what you list but let them beleeue ye that will It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish No no I would we were like them they were wiser then we are It is maruell that they should be so farre wide and no man to reproue them There is no wise man but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly and wise forefathers and good Saints then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders be they neuer so ancient Oh this corrupt age whither will it tend at the last Pro. What we go about or would make the world beléeue God himselfe is both witnesse and Iudge to him and to his holy truth we appeale It is not like that God would forsake his Church so many hundred yeares no hee neuer forsooke it one houre no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wasted by Antichrist He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefathers to perish he forsooke Antichrist and his brood as a den of theeues which forsooke him he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes that so they might be damned as S. Paule setteth it forth 2. Thes 2. This was neither all the forefathers nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers And in those times there were euer some which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to nor depend vpon the multitude of men
make a very liberall accusation of great and foule matter although ye say it would be too long to recite the particulars to intreate vpon them yet ye may name them Pro. In few words I may name some if that will pleasure ye our carnall protestants are couetous greedie worldlings craftie in their dealings to séeke all aduantages against those with whom they deale full of vsurie and briberie and these things are also in you our carnall Gospellers are very fowle mouthed in slaunderings railings ribaldries and horrible othes these things ye make no cōscience of Our carnall protestants are giuen ouer to spend their time in gluttonies drinkings vaine pleasures and vnlawfull exercises these are your veniall sinnes and whosoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out themselues in the same excesse of riot they are precise fooles more nice then wise they do it but of vaine glorie and singularitie Pa. Ye may bee ashamed to charge vs with such things seeing our Church hath alwaies vsed so sharp discipline vpon such offenders you may iustly be charged because ye let loose the raines vnto all vices yee giue the flesh the swinge yee haue no discipline among ye to make men stand in awe Pro. We may be ashamed to speake truth of you but you must not once blush at the matter when ye blaspheme the glorious Gospell of Christ and why onely because ye are past shame but let your words goe and come to your matter You may not in no case bée blamed for such vices which haue alwayes holden men in awe with sharpe discipline and corrected the offenders It is well knowne to al wise mē what your discipline was true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe but of whom not of God but of the Romish prelate No man durst wagge his finger against him no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions vnder paine of his extreme and heauie curse But each man might liue as he lust in all vices against God onelie he must confesse his sinnes to the priest and receiue a certaine penance to fast certaine daies or to goe on pilgrimage to some Saint or to haue the Popes pardon for a péece of money not onely for his sinnes past but also for those which he should afterward commit Others when they had committed some horrible sinnes must whip themselues and so at it againe Thus your holy pope did open the gate to all vncleannes and therefore in the Scriptures is called the man of sinne Pa. This seemeth very strange to me how penance and correction should open the gate vnto all sin It seemeth by your words that men would loue sinne the better because it should bee punished I would wish ye to be better aduised in your words for I could take ye in many such absurdities but I am almost ashamed to recite them they bee so childish trifles to come from any one of your coate which professe learning But let me see how you shut vp the gate against sinne which inioyne no penance or correction It is a world to see the vanity of mens minds which perswade themselues that they can make men beleeue the crow is white alas your poore Sophistrie is not able to doe this Yet I perceiue ye haue some grace in ye for I trow ye blush Pro. It would make any man blush I trow to be taken in such a trip and so to ouer-shoote himselfe as I haue done by affirming that your discipline did open the gate vnto al sinne For can such sharpe penance as to fast three daies together with bread and water or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walsingame or for a man to whip himselfe vntill the blood follow or to giue ten shillings for a pardon make men loue sinne the better This geare I trow would scarre them and make them to haue little lust to sinne Oh no good sir this is nothing so sharpe as hell fire men finde such a swéete taste in sinne that if they may escape so they will not care The adulterer hath such pleasure in his vncleane lust that he will to it againe if he may be perswaded it be but a whipping matter The drunkard will haue one pot of ale the more if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water The enuious and hatefull man will haue one fling at his enemie if a payre of old angels will dispatch the matter and procure his pardon at the hands of the holy father and so in each sinne O yée holy hell-hounds here is your sharpe discipline by which ye giue liberty vnto men to turne back to vncleannes euen as a dogge to his vomite But while wee reproue your discipline wée haue none our selues and so we doe but play the Sophisters which would take vpon them to proue that the crow is white Sir before I come to our discipline I say our doctrine is this that vnder paine of Gods curse and eternall damnation men must returne from their wicked waies and not returne vnto them againe they must giue vp themselues wholly to serue God in all good workes As for the discipline of our Church thus sharp it is that the obstinate sinner is to be cut off frō the congregation to be deliuered vp vnto satan not to he receiued in again vntil such time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe sorow harty repentance Let al men iudge whether this be not to shut vp the gate against sinne Pa. Now you may very well be likened vnto a man that will make great brags of his riches when he is nothing worth A marueilous sharpe discipline ye speake of but I pray ye where shal a mā find it euē in your Spirituall courts for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee shall be cursed to the diuell throwne out of the church yea so seuerely that he shall not be receiued in againe before he come weeping vntill the teares drop out of his purse O yee dissolute teachers of libertie and maintainers of iniquitie cease your bragging of those things which are not among ye Pro. Your blasphemous tongue will neuer cease vnlesse it be cut out of your head doo we teach libertie doe wee maintaine iniquitie Admit your saying bee true yet I pray you how slenderly doe you reason when yée say that a mā is excommunicated for money and receiued in againe for money although they doe not repent and therefore your Gospell giueth libertie to sinne Oh good sir Christ and his Gospell allow no such thing if men doe offend doe not you therefore blame the trueth for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that What though we haue not the discipline of the Gospell in our Church here in this land so whole and sound as it should bee yet because wee allow it wee pray for it wee thirst after it wee confesse the want thereof we ought not to be charged as those which
haue fulfilled all those things which S. Paul and S. Iohn in the Reuelation haue written of him as to gape after another The Pope must néedes bee bee not simply because he hath the highest seat in the Church but because he hath so high a seat in the Church as God neuer appointed to any Antichrist should be the highest of all where will ye finde any that was aboue the Pope or that euer did chalenge such authoritie as he had for certaine hundreth yeares But ye say when I haue proued that the Pope doth boast himselfe to be God then I shall say somewhat It is indéede such a somewhat as may of it selfe suffice if there were no more to cause all wise men to see that he is the man of sinne and vtterly to renounce him Pa. When ye haue done that I also will recant and forsake him because I am sure the spirit of the diuell is in that man which maketh himselfe God and so I dare promise for all that be of our side Pro. Ye make a double promise one for your selfe and another for your fellowes that if the Pope can be proued to haue boasted or shewed himselfe to be God ye will recant and forsake him But I am sure yee promise much more then ye can performe I cannot trust that which ye make for your self much lesse when ye promise for all that be on your side Ye are blinded and hardened as the Scribes and Pharisies were they said if he bee Christ let him come downe from the crosse and wee will beléeue in him Matth. 27. Could they or would they haue beléeued in him if he had come downe from the crosse Why then did they not beléeue when he was risen from the dead which was a thing farre greater then to come downe from the crosse When I sée ye recant I will beléeue it otherwise I will not because there is a great number of ye which doe wrangle and cauill séeke shifts against those things which your consciences do tell ye are true so that ye do willingly and wilfully blinde your selues and so blind others And thus while ye go about to deceiue others ye are deceiued But let vs come to the matter It may be ye looke that I should go about to proue that the Pope hath taken vpon him to be called God or to bee taken for God and not man I doe not meane so Pa. No ye cānot tell what ye meane I thought this would be the end now ye will not goe about to proue that the Pope would bee called God or be taken not to be a man This is the sleight of ye all to make great crakes and when ye are to come to your proofe then to winde out I may keepe my promise well enough you haue released me of it I would like it well if ye would confesse plainlie and shame the diuell that ye haue made promise of more then ye are able to doe and that ye haue done great iniurie vnto the holy father and haue slandered him Pro. I haue done euen as much iniurie to the holy father and haue slaundered him euen as much as a man doth slaunder and iniurie the diuell when he saith he is the father of lyes I should not shame the diuell in retracting that which I haue said and by saying that I haue promised more then I am able to doe but I should please him very well For although his owne credit is so far spent that he should vtterly lose his labour in séeking to recouer it yet he séeketh to vphold the credit and estimation of his vicar by that meanes doth maintaine his kingdome I haue vsed no sleight nor am gone from ought that I did promise to proue For doth it follow that because the Pope doth confesse he is a man and taketh not the name of God therfore he doth not boast himself to be God You are a very simple Logitian which from deniall of some part wil deny the whole Pa. What is the whole if this be not neither to take the name nor yet to esteeme himselfe to bee the thing Neither to bee called God nor yet to thinke himselfe to be God If ye can shew any other way whereby hee may shew himselfe to bee God let me heare it Pro. He doth sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that he is God when he challengeth to himselfe the power authoritie which doth belong onely to God and to no creature this power he hath vsurped many waies Tell me is not this to boast himselfe to be God Pa. I grant indeed that whosoeuer doth challenge the power and authoritie to himselfe which doth belong to God onely doth make himselfe God But what are ye the neerer for this so long as ye shall neuer bee able to shew any way whereby the Pope hath vsurped any such power although ye say hee hath done it many waies hee hath his power giuen him of God and yet neuer the power to be as God Pro. I might with trauell make a large discourse with many proues to shew that he hath vsurped the highest authoritie but I will contēt my self to shew it in some things which are knowne very well euen vnto the simple Is not God onely Lord ouer our faith and ruler ouer our consciences to binde the same Hath not God onely power to forgiue sinnes To shut heauen and to open hell to saue and to destroy Is not God the onely lawgiuer is not Christ our onely Doctor how then can the Bishop of Rome challenge these things to himselfe and yet not shew himselfe that he is GOD If this be not much more to make himselfe GOD when hée taketh vpon him Gods power then to take the name let al men iudge Pa. The Pope doth take no Lordship ouer the conscience nor doth not binde them further then he hath authoritie giuen him The lawes which he maketh are made by the holy Ghost which is in him and therefore there is but one lawgiuer For ye may euen as well say Moses gaue lawes therefore there is more then one lawgiuer for looke how he gaue lawes so doth the Pope Hereby euery man may see that ye reason very strongly when by making lawes yee would proue an equalitie with God then all the Apostles and Prophets were equall with God And so I may say for the rest Pro. God neuer gaue any such authoritie to any man If the Pope had it giuen him it was by the Dragon as S. Iohn sayth Reuel 13. which gaue him his seate and great authoritie Ye say I reason strongly when I say the Pope doth make lawes to binde mens consciences therfore the Pope maketh himselfe God and likewise maketh that there is more then one lawgiuer For say you by this reason Moses all the Apostles and Prophets should be equall with God because they gaue lawes But as they did it by the holy Ghost so doth the Pope and so God is still the
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the