not I pray how far doth your Aloysius Lippomanes give you his assistance For they are a couple of Fathers your Church hath of late coyned to help them in the time of need but if you did find it in Nazianzen I pray tell us where that we may give you a more satisfactory Reply but if you have none but your young Authors we judge it a Forgery of your Church Then you proceed to produce your Authority from those Fathers which did defend the Practice of Invocation of Saints and the first you produce is that of St. Gregory Nyssen which I have replyed to already and will say something more You tell us that in his Oration upon St. Theodore that he saith The Christians call on the Martyr as on God's Minister who being Invocated by them is able to impetrate for them what Favours he pleaseth To this Sir give me leave to say That where the Fathers are contrary to the Word of God there we must leave them where they are agreeable there we do agree with them but you have so ordered the matter that you make the Fathers speak your own sence by your frequent Forgeries putting that upon them which they never speak or else leaving out what they did really say And this Father's Expression doth look like a Forgery of your Church for I find in the Life of St. Theodore written by St. Gregory Nyssen who wrote it with much Eloquence in the Praise of the Church where the Monument of that Holy Martyr was kept and speaks of the Excellency of the Image that was made for the said Saint which did so lively represent him as if the whole Story of him were written in a Book And in his Oration upon that Martyr he doth by a passionate Apostraphe direct himself to the Image but that he prayed to that Saint as if he could hear him that I deny Because that in his Writings against Eunominus he saith We are to Worship and Adore that Nature alone which is uncreated whose Character is this That it neither at any time began to be nor ever shall cease to be Contr. Eunom Lib. 5. But from these Words of St. Gregory you cannot prove such an Invocation as points the least at any Adoration intended by him to this or any other Saint but certain it is that this extravagant way of speaking to St. Theodore is by no means to be justified it being repugnant to the Word of God and tending to the countenancing of an heathenish Custom viz. Of bringing Images into the Churches Euseb Lib. 7. Cap. 16. Who saith That the Use of Images was brought into the Churches first by the Heathens and St. Hierom tells you the decking of them was to deceive the simple Argento Auro decoravit illud ut fulgore utriusque Materiae dicipiat simplices qui quidem Error ad nos usque transivit ut Religionem in divitiis arbitremur Hieron in Jer. Lib. 2. Cap. 10. He adorneth his Image with Silver and Gold that by the lustre and glory of both these Metals he may deceive the simple which Errour crept in amongst us so that now we think our Religion standeth in Riches I say this was the consequence of those high flown Apostrophes and Invocating them though they intended no Worship to them for they were convinced that the Saints could not hear them therefore the end of their calling upon them was the more to induce their Hearers to follow the good Example of these Saints whose Works they magnified and in their transports of Zeal they did call upon them as some of the Fathers did upon other things which I am sure they did never believe that they were capable of hearing them Thus it was with this holy Nyssen in this Oration upon St. Theodore and means and intends no Prayer at all to be made to him but only a naming his Name and Works that his good Example might be followed Your Doctrine of the Saints Intercession is no ways proved for St. Gregory intends no more than to shew you that those who name his Name and profess the Faith he professed and that the consideration of his holy Life and glorious Martyrdom working in them a willingness of obedience to the Will of God they might obtain those Favours God usually bestows on his Church Blessings suitable to the great Sufferings and Services of his Saints and this all Protestants do own that God for the sake of his Saints that have been eminent in their day hath been pleased to shew great Mercy to his People by their Example of Holiness and Obedience and couragious Sufferings many have been brought to God and many have been confirmed in the Faith of Jesus Christ and an holy emulation hath been by this means occasion'd amongst Christians who should out-vie each other in Practices suitable to the glorious Gospel which they profess in the World by following the Examples of those Saints whose Names they had in continual remembrance You say That St. Basil is evidently plain the Martyr called by his Name sheweth himself present to as many as call by his Works Behold say you he useth the same terms which express the Invocation of God in Zachary Sir I must own that the Saints of God have left sweet Memorials of their Holiness and Piety and in this Sence they may be said to be present but by calling upon the Saints the holy Doctor doth not at all imply any Prayer to them but only professing the Holiness and Faith for which they laid down their Lives I pray Sir observe the words of the Prophet Zachary 13 chap. 9. They shall call upon my Name and I will hear them I will say it is my People and they shall say the Lord is my God. Where the words of the Prophet are not so much to be understood an actual Prayer to God as an acknowledgment of him and these words I will hear them we may understand thus much I will own them Those shall be owned by Almighty God that acknowledge him both in respect of his Justice in correcting them and in his Mercy in preserving them which explication of the words is justified by the following words I will say it is my People and they shall say the Lord is my God. And Sir give me leave to tell you that St. Basil saith thus much and no more That the Christians have great reason to own the Martyrs and are justified in so doing for that they art yet present by their own Works and by those good Examples they have left us St. Paul saith Let every one that nameth the Name of Christ depart from Iniquity So let every one that nameth the Name of this or that Saint or Martyr depart from Iniquity let Men not only call them by their Names or pretend to own them by an outward Profession only since they are present by their Works that is their Examples are left for us to follow But what reason you had to bring this
Nay the Apostle makes this observation in ver 5. Unto which of the Angels said he at any time Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee Ps 2. 7. And observe verse 13. of this first Chapter to the Hebrews to which of the Angels said he at any time Sit thou at my right hand until I make thy Enemies thy footstool And if upon these Considerations this great Doctor useth this expression Why gape ye after Angels upon the same consideration I may say Why gape ye after the Saints To which of the Saints said he at any time Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee or Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine Enemies thy footstool If God by not speaking this to the Angels doth shew that they ought not to be worshipped then it necessarily follows that the Saints ought not to be worshipped unless you can tell where and when God used such expressions to them as he used to his Son. Again we find that God made his Angels ministring Spirits sent forth to minister to them who shall be Heirs of Salvation and they being no more St. Chrysostome saith Why do you gape after Angels Then what can we expect from the Saints who are not so much as ministring Spirits who never were sent forth by God to minister for the People of God here upon Earth St. Chrysostom in his eighteenth Homily on the Epistle to the Romans saith Vnto whom shalt thou flee whom wilt thou call upon to fight for and help thee shall it be to Abraham he will not hear thee shall it be to these Virgins but they also shall impart none of their Oyl unto thee shalt thou call upon thy Father or Grandfather but none of them shall be able to release or relieve thee These Sayings considered worship and pray to him alone who hath power to blot out thine obligation and quench that flame You may observe the holy Father shews the vanity of those Men that have a recourse to the Saints departed and how they are disappointed that expect any Relief or Comfort from any other but God. Therefore the holy Doctor admonisheth Christians to have recourse to God alone who is able to help and to relieve them Now I pray if God alone is able to help and relieve us to what end is it for us to have recourse to Angels and Saints if they are not able to relieve us and release us And what warrant can you pretend from God to worship or pray to any other since this Holy Father saith You must worship and pray to God alone Again the same Father in his ninth Homily upon the Colossians he shews us that the Devil envying the Honour that we have to address our selves to God immediately hath brought in the Worshipping of Angels It is strange that you should practice that as an Institution of God which was but a meer Intention of the Devil and that the Council of Trent should define that as an Article of Faith which hath been Condemned by the Fathers of the Church Catholick as Sin and a manifest breach of our Duty and Obedience we owe to God and if that the Worshipping of Angels were an Invention of the Devil Then Sir I pray what reason have you or any sober Man to think that Worshipping of Saints can be an Institution of God and that you may see the latter as well as the former was a meer contrivance of Hell. I pray consider the Doctrine which holy Epiphanius did teach the Church in his time and largely refuting the Heresies of those who were called Collyridians from the Collyrides or Cakes which they used to offer to the Virgin Mary and says That neither Elias nor John nor Thecla nor any of the Saints are to be worshipped and again God will not have Angels to be worshipped much less her that was born of Anna And again which of the Prophets have permitted a Man to be worshipped much less a Woman The Virgin is a choice Vessel indeed but a Woman Let Mary be in honour but let the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost be worshipped Let no Man worship Mary Epiph. Haeres 79. This Doctor is as plain as may be in the Point in debate They offered her Cakes and you Incense and Vestments and Candles If they were Hereticks in Epiphanius's time for worshipping the Virgin Mary what are you who do it now I have one Father more to offer to your Consideration and that is Lactantius who is a Doctor of great esteem with you observe what he saith Qui supplicant mortuis rationem hominum non tenent Lactant. Insti Divin Lib. 2. Cap. 18. It is a short Testimony but as plain as can be in opposition to your Doctrine of Praying to the Saints who are departed and can neither hear your Prayers nor are they in any capacity of granting your Desires This sort of Service must unman you for that you do not pray upon any good ground nor can you pray for any good end If you can let us know the Principle upon which you pray and the end for which you pray to the Saints for all Services that have not their Foundation upon good Principles and are not performed for a good end are so far from being Christian Services that those who perform them are scarce worthy of the Name of Men. I have taken some pains to make it appear that the Doctrine of Praying to Saints and Angels is unlawful I have deliver'd you my thoughts freely in answer to those Authoiries which you have produced which at the first view had the aspect of Prayers but upon a strict observation they prove to be no more then Rhetorical Apostroplies those holy Fathers used not adoring the Saints for Religion but only honouring them to beget in their Hearers an holy imitation of their Vertue and to oblige them to follow those good Examples the Saints left behind them and then I have given you the Authorities of the most eminent Fathers both of the Greek and Latin Churches that with one consent condemn your Doctrine and Practice by you defended But in truth Sir Humane Writings are no Foundation of our Faith we have a more sure Rule of our Faith in this particular the Holy Scriptures which are the Word of God whereunto you will do well to take heed and no more endeavour to bring in the Authorities of humane Writers to stand in competition with the Holy Word of God that hath commanded us to worship and serve him alone and hath sworn by himself that he will not part with this Honour to another but if this doth not satisfie you I am ready to reply to any thing you shall further bring in to give countenance to the Point in hand as it is defined and determined in your Church Sir you were pleased in your Epistle to the English Peer to reflect upon the Ordination of the Church of England and in words at length you
Service are guilty of Sixthly The Practice of your Church in Praying to the Saints is irrational and abominable because upon a due consideration of what manner of Saints you Invocate they are such whose Saintship nay whose Existence is by us justly to be question'd I pray call to mind what Cassander one of your own Church speaketh by way of complaint in his Chapter De Meritis Intercessione Sanctorum These are his words The People do now almost despise the Old Saints and serve with more Affection the New whose Holiness is less certain Yea there are some of them of whom we may justly doubt whether ever they lived in the World. I. You pray to some of doubtful Saintship or Holiness who instead of reigning in Heaven it may be are frying in Hell. You I suppose very well know that I do not now speak without Authority for it is a famous Saying of Gregory the Great That the Bodies of many Persons are Worshipped on Earth whose Souls are tormented in Hell. This is not only the opinion of one Doctor but Thomas of Aquine and Cardinal Cajetan and others do acknowledge that in a matter of Fact his Infallible Holiness may be mistaken and that his Holiness may be in an Errour in this very business of Canonization And many of your Church have taken great offence at that prostitution of Devotion usual in your Publick Assemblies to every upstart new Saint Do you not in this Worship many times ye know not what Christ put the Question to the Samaritan Woman give me leave to put the same to you I pray Who is it that you Worship How came they to be the Objects of your Worship and great Devotion paid to them in your Churches after they were dead whose Conversations were much questioned whilst alive against whom many Scandals were proved How many of your Saints Sir have been made fâ—r Money Many of them Traytors to the Government under which they then lived It would be an endless Task for me to make Observations upon the Lives of some of your Saints Murderers and common Disturbers of the Peace of Christendom Sir I will instance in the Lives of those Saints that have been of Note in the English Nation The first Instance that I shall give you is that of Austin the Monk and Archbishop of Canterbury who was sent into this our Nation by Gregory the Great and therefore called by your Church The Great Apostle of England this Monk with others were by this Gregory sent into this Island to turn the People to the Romish Religion which Augustine when through his pretended Holiness or rather Hypocrisie had got a Party to own him and had obtained of King Ethelbert to be Archbishop of Canterbury and Primate of all England went into Wales where he found many Godly and Learned Bishops and Preachers of God's most Holy Word which sincerely and truly taught the Doctrine of the Scriptures and rightly administred the Sacraments according to Christ's Institution whom this Austin the Monk laboured to the best of skill and power to allure from the Sincerity and Simplicity of Christ's Religion unto the Superstition and Idolatry of your Church setting out that he was a Legate of the Most Holy Father the Pope sent from Rome and that he was made and ordained the chief Bishop and Primate of all England and therefore he commanded them to obey him and his Doctrine and to receive that Most Holy Father of Rome and his Religion but the Godly and Learned Fathers boldly answer'd That they were already true Christians and according to the Word of God they governed their Churches therefore would neither obey him nor submit themselves to the Authority of that strange Romish Bishop nor yet receive his strange Superstitious Ceremonies but continue as heretofore they had done in their old way of serving of God. For which cause Austin the Monk with his Companions departed and being not satisfied with the entertainment these holy men gave him he found a way to give these Christians great trouble because they would not obey him nor comply with the Bishop of Rome's pretended Title over them This develish Priest he complained to King Ethelbert that the Britains would neither obey him nor any man but only the Archbishop of Carleon which thing thus represented to the King it moved him to wrath and threatned to destroy them all Writing to Elfrid King of Northumberland that he would come to him with all the Force he could raise and that he would meet him at Leicester and from thence they would go into Wales and destroy the Archbishop of Carleon and all those who had refused to obey Austin and his Doctrine When these holy men heard of this and that the two Kings with their Armies did approach to the end they might destroy them they sent unto the Kings certain holy and good men who went barefoot and with all Humility and Meckness besought them to cease from so ungodly an Action But these wicked Kings would not speak to these holy men but presently order'd them to be slain which was presently done being in number five hundred and forty some say eleven hundred And from thence these Kings went to Bangor in order to destroy all the Britains but they having received notice of the intentions of these instigated Princes they assembled themselves and raised all the Force they could resolving to fight in the defence of their Religion and Country so that in the Battel King Ethelbert was slain by the just Judgment of God and Kind Elfrid was sore wounded in the Battel and forced most shamefully to fly the whole Army also were defeated and almost all destroyed Thus God gave his Servants Victory over their Enemies Ex Chron. Angl. This Sir is a Saint to whom great Devotions are paid by your Church for that as your Divines say he was the first that brought the Faith into this Land which is false the Faith having been Received by the Inhabitants thereof many hundred years before he was born But behold his Pride and Cruelty two Vices that did rather intitle him a Devil than a Saint His Pride is sufficiently set forth by Venerable Bede who tells us That he did disdain to rise up in token of Reverence to seven Bishops and other Learned and Grave men of Britain when they made their appearance at his Council And because of this his Pride they would not hearken to his Demands nor take him for their Archbishop thinking that if he carried himself so insolently to them whilst a Stranger what Respect might they hope for when they came under his Jurisdiction His Cruelty appears in stirring up two Kings to commit such barbarous Murders Now Sir what reason have we to pray to such a Saint as this that had stained his Life with such foul Crimes as these Besides I could never yet read of his Repentance for that Bloud which he had occasioned to be shed Nay see but the old Chronicle written in
lift up our Voice to thee Remember us Holy Virgin and return us for these inconsiderable Speeches great Gifts and Riches of your Grace Hail most Gracious the Lord is with thee Interceed O Mistress O Lady O Queen and Mother of God. Sir I must tell you a Story that this Athanasius is said to be the Author of and that considered you will find these words thus cited to smell more of Rome than of Alexandria Your Divines represent him to tell a mighty formal Story of an Image that was abused by the Priests of the Jews the Story is this A Christian having occasion to remove his Family from an House he had long inhabited amongst his other Goods he had an Image of Christ equal to him in length and breadth and in all proportion through forgetfulness leaveth it in a secret place in his House out of which he removed after him a Jew doth inhabit the same House for some time and seeth not the Image a strange Jew sitting there at Dinner immediately espyeth it standing open against a Wall. This is your Athanasius not Bishop of Alexandria but an Athanasius of your own making one while it is open and another while it is in a secret place The Priests and the Jews came together and abuse it with all Villany they Crown it with Thorns and make it drink Vinegar Gall and stick it to the Heart with a Spear out issueth Blood in a great quantity the Powers of Heaven are shaken the Sun is darkned and the Moon looseth her light and from hence saith your young Athanasius we have had Hailstones of Blood and all other like Blood throughout the World. Nay you make him to tell another doughty Story How that Nicodemus that came to Jesus by Night made an Image of Christ with his own Hands and that when he lay upon his Death-bed he deliver'd it to Gamaliel that was Schoolmaster to St. Paul and when that Gamaliel saw that he should die he deliver'd it to James and James left it to Symon and Zacheus which Image came from hand to hand by Succession and continued a long time at Hierusalem and from thence it was carried into Syria and from thence into a City called Berytus not far from Tyre and Sydon where it was abused by the Jews and a great many Wonders were shew'd by that Image This Sir is Athanasius of your Church but not St. Athanasius the Bishop of Alexandria And he that was the Author of these Fables was the Author of that blasphemous Prayer to the Virgin Mary For I suppose you well know that St. Athanasius wrote concerning that matter and the Heresie of the Arrians gave him occasion for it They maintained That Christ was a meer Creature and yet they prayed to him He on the contrary asserted That if he were Created he must not be Invocated and Adored Observe his third Oration against the Arrians To God alone saith he it belongeth to be Worshipped and the Angels themselves are not ignorant hereof for although they excel in Glory yet they are Creatures and are none of those that are Worshipped but of those that Worship the Lord. Again Because that Jesus Christ is not a Creature but is begotten of the Substance of his Father and is by Nature the Son of God therefore is he to be Worshipped 'T is true the Arrians did Worship Christ but it was not upon a good consideration for they Worshipped Christ upon the account that the Word of God abided in him This great Doctor shews them the absurdity of the Reason of their Worshipping of Christ For saith he by the same Reason you may Worship the Saints who have the Word of God abiding in them He doth not at all countenance the Worshipping of Saints but shews that the Worshipping of Saints is the sad consequence of Worshipping of Christ because the Word of God did dwell in him You are pleased to represent St. Athanasius to say thus If you Worship the Man Christ because the Word of God dwelleth there at the same time Worship also the Saints on God's account who hath his Word dwelling in them which you make use of to prove the lawfulness of Praying to Saints when as he useth it as an Absurdity the Arrians run into they Worshipping the Man Jesus only as the Word of God dwelling in him Another Author for Praying to Saints is St. Cyril of Alexandria at the Council of Ephesus who presided in that Council as Pope Caelestine's Legate and at the Second Action or Session of that Council in the Presence of the Bishops that sat in Council and in their Names and in the Names of the whole Council he you say spake these words Hail in all our Names Holy Mother of God most excellent Ornament of the whole World unextinguishable Lamp Crown of Virginity Scepter of right Doctrine Temple never to be destroyed the Dwelling-place of him that cannot be contained within any place Mother and Virgin by whom he is named Blessed in the Gospel who comes in the Name of our Lord. Hail you that did bare in your Holy Virgin 's Womb him that is Immense and Incomprehensible by whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored the universal World over by whom the Earth exults by whom Angels and Arch-Angels rejoyce by whom the Devils are put to flight then you say he concludes That none can sufficiently praise that glorious Virgin and ends his whole Discourse with these words Let us fear and worship the undivided Trinity Celebrating with Praises Mary the ever Blessed Virgin to wit the Holy Temple of God and her Son and immaculate Spouse This you say was plain and full and so say I But how do you prove 1. That Cyril was there President of the Council of Ephesus as Legate to Pope Coelestine 2. How do you prove that he said the Words in the Name of the whole Council 3. How do you prove that ever he spake them at all These are three Particulars worthy of consideration I perceive your great Voucher and if so the whole thing is to be suspected as a meer Forgery of your Church You are pleased to give the Words in Greek to Mr. Needham who understands Greek and so do others yet your putting it into Greek will give you no Reputation in this point only that you may understand Greek Therefore Sir Consider in the first place that Cyril of Alexandria did not preside in that Council by Virtue of any Legantine Authority he received from the Bishop of Rome for the Bishop of Rome did not Summon that Council nor indeed had he that Power in him for the first five hundred years after Christ For Cusanus a Cardinal of your Church saith Authoritas Consilii non ita sependit a Congregante ut nisi a Papa congregetur non sit Concillium quia tunc omnia Octo Vniversalia Concilia non fuissent firma quoniam per Imperatores Convâ—cata Leguntur Romanus Pontifex instar aliorum Patriarcharum
Protect and Secure but saith they will ask the Continuance of that Protection and Security which God was pleased to bestow upon the Church as a Reward of St. Theodore's Sufferings by whose Death the Church might perchance otherwise have sustained some loss But you will say further that St. Gregory prays to St. Theodore to ask for Peace It is true the Bloud of Christ's Martyrs do cry to Heaven see Revel 6. 9 10. And when he had opened the fifth Seal I saw under the Altar the Souls of them that were Slain for the Word of God and for the Testimony which they held and they cryed aloud How long O Lord Holy and True dost thou not judge and avenge our Bloud on them who dwell on the Earth And if he calls for Vengeance upon the Persecutors of the Peace of the Church such a sort of asking St. Theodore might use and for such an Intercession as this St. Gregory might perchance Invocate St. Theodore We find such Invocations as these frequently amongst fanciful Men to Persons to whom they would pay no Worship The Noble Army of God's Martyrs as they do Praise God in Heaven so their Bloud calls for Vengeance upon their Persecutors on Earth Therefore Sir upon the Consideration of the whole Words there is nothing more to be said but that they were a Rhetorical Strein in Honour of the Memory of St. Theodore and not a Prayer to him as an Act of Adoration that he paid to that Saint The Reason that I give is this because that in his Works against Eunomius Lib. 5. he most excellently speaks thus We are taught to understand that whatsoever is Created is a different thing from the Divine Nature and that we are to Adore that Nature only which is Vncreated Whose Character is this that neither at any time began to be or ever shall cease to be Now compare St. Gregory with St. Gregory and you must conclude that there is no Invocation as an Act of Adoration nor Formal Prayer as any Act of Devotion paid to this Saint but as the Psalmist did Invocate the Dragons and Deeps Sun Moon and Stars and as the three Children did call upon the Frost and Snow to magnifie God without any mention of Adoration or Formal Supplication and such an Invocation many fanciful Men at this day use But you are pleased to say that St. Gregory did pray to St. Theodore to get the rest of the Martyrs St. Peter St. Paul and St. John to pray for the several Churches planted by them This plainly sheweth that it was but a Rhetorical Redundancy of Speech of St. Gregory in Memory of that Saint The Cryes of the Martyr's Bloud reacheth to Heaven and is heard by God and his avenging their Bloud upon the Persecutors on Earth secures the Peace of the Church but that St. Gregory did so supplicate St. Theodore for that he believed that the Saints hear our Prayer I cannot gather from his Words beccause that he is so full against giving any Worship unto any but the Uncreated Being so that you may see he intends no Adoration to St. Theodore nor any Prayer to him as if he did believe that St. Theodore did hear him or did make Intercession to God otherwise then his Bloud crying to Heaven for Vengeance Thy Brothers Bloud cryeth to me from the Earth saith God to Cain Gen. 4 10. The Saints Bloud did Cry and St. Theodoret's Bloud did Cry What then were they therefore Mediators of Intercession were they to be Prayed unto and Worshipped as if they could hear our Prayers No St. Gregory doth not Invocate him for those Reasons nor for that End. But those warm Expressions of Holy Men have given great occasion to your Idolatrous Practices their Heats of Zeal were many times beyond the Bounds of their Judgment by which Sir you may observe that we do not depend much upon the Authority of the Fathers we having a more sure Word of Instruction which gives us no Warrant for this way of Worship nor have we any Precedent in the New Testament that ever any Worship to them was ever performed You say that St. Gregory doth explain himself in his Oration on Theodore the Martyr The Christians saith he call on this Martyr as on God's Minister who being Invocated by them he is able to Impetrate for them what Favours he pleases and this you tell us is St. Gregory's Explanation of himself and you tell us that his Prayer was as full and as plain as could be The Church at that time did begin to have great Devotion to the Monuments of their Martyrs not that they did permit any Worship to be paid to them and their great Orators did in their Orations on the Saint whose Memory they kept use a great many Rhetorical Apostrophies which looked like Prayer But I tell you again that they designed no praying to their Saints but did Invocate them as the Ministers of God The Psalmist did so by the Angels the Sun Moon and Stars and it was only in Honorem Sancti not in Adorationem They did use to repeat all their good Words and all their good Works and did speak to their Monuments and their Reliques and is there no difference betwixt Invocation by way of Honour and Invocation in order to Worship The former might perchance be used to St. Theodore but latter not But you press still and say that St. Gregory saith That St. Theodore being Invocated by them is able to obtain what Favours be pleases 'T is true that God doth look upon himself Honoured when we retain a grateful Memory of those who have highly served him and in a most Eminent Manner have suffered for him and many times the word Invocate signifyeth only a calling to and not always a calling upon they spake of their Saints with great Reverence and reported their Works and Services and Sufferings to induce their Hearers to follow their good Examples then according to the custom of the Time they did use to convert their Speeches to the Monuments or Images of these Saints which you call Praying to them which was no more a Prayer than a Poets calling upon his Muse and as for the Intercession you would have us take notice of is no more then the Cry his Bloud makes to Heaven from under the Altar for upon the Account of their Sufferings great Blessings have been bestowed on the Church of God Sanguis Martyrum est Semen Ecclesiae by the Example of their Constancy many have been brought to the Faith and by their Eminent Holiness many have enter'd into so strickt a Course of Life that they have been of great Use in the Church of God and therefore these Fathers did mention the Names of these Martyrs and did as it were speak to them that they might engage their People to follow their good Examples so that with them they might be made partakers of Bliss and Happiness This is all that I can apprehend from St. Gregory
Saying of St. Basil to prove your Doctrine of the lawfulness of the Practice of your Church in Praying to Saints And why you should think to corroberate your Authority with the Saying of the Prophet Zachary that I must leave to you to consider of for at the present I do not see any tendancy that way by the words of St. Basil Another Testimony you produce was an Observation of St. Augustine on the Blessing of Job Gen. 48. to wit that not only Exaudition but Invocation is used in reference to Men as well as to God where your Printer I conceive was mistaken for there was no mention made of the Blessing of Job but there is mention made of the Blessing of Jacob in the fifteenth and sixteenth Verses of that Chapter where the Text saith That Jacob blessed Joseph and said God before whom my Fathers Abraham and Isaac walked and the God which fed me all my life long until this day The Angel which redeemed me from all evil bless the Lads and let my Name be named on them and the Name of my Fathers Abraham and Isaac and let them grow into a Multitude in the middest of the Earth Now I pray Sir what do you infer from these words I suppose that you lay some stress upon these words The Angel which delivered me from all evil bless the Lads and from the Names used of Abraham and Isaac you would prove the Lawfulness of the Invocation of Angels and that the Saints do interceed for us that could not be Jacob's meaning For Sir it was not Angelus Domini that Jacob points at but at Angelus Dominus who is called the Angel of the Covenant and him only Jacob doth Invoke for a Blessing for when he saw this Angel he saith I have seen God face to face and my Life is preserved Gen. 32. 30. And that the naming of Abraham and Isaac doth imply the Intercession of Abraham and Isaac in the behalf of his two Grandchildren is an Errour for according to the Sence of Bellarmine one of your own Church and Order it was not the manner under the Old Testament for Men to apply themselves to the Saints and he gives this reason The Fathers were then shut up in Prison and did not see the Face of God therefore if this be true you must not conclude the Doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints from these words or that they were to be prayed unto You further cite St. Augustine and you bring him in saying The Christian People celebrate together the Memory of the Martyrs a Religious Solemnity both to excite an imitation of them and that they be partakers of their Merits and be assisted by their Prayers That the Christians did meet to praise God together for the holy Lives and happy Deaths of God's most blessed Saints and Martyrs Sir is no question and that they did it in a most Religious Solemn Manner is beyond all doubt and that they did in order to follow these good Examples that were recorded of these Saints is as clear And what of all this They did Meet together to celebrate the Memory of the holy Martyrs Ergo They prayed to them They met to Celebrate the Memory of the holy Martyrs to excite an Imitation of them Ergo They prayed to them This is not Logick fit for a Man of your Station and Character certainly no such Logick was taught in any of your Philosophy Schools at Liege You may know that in such Religious Assemblies congregated for the commemoration of the Saints and Martyrs the Priests did recite the Names of the Martyrs together with some short account of their holy Lives and heavenly Exits they made and of the Miracles that were wrought by them but I do not observe any Prayer or Prayers were made to them they did praise God for them and did pray to God to give them Grace to follow their good Examples and performed many Works of Charity in token of the sincerity of their Prayers But I do not find that any Direction is given by that holy Father for any Adoration or Worship to be paid to them You will say the great end for which they did Celebrate together the Memory of the Martyrs was that they might be partakers of their Merits and be assisted by their Prayers Here are two things worthy of observation 1. What is to be understood by being made partakers of the Merits of the Martyrs 2. What is to be understood by being assisted by their Prayers and both these seriously considered may I humbly conceive satisfie any reasonable Man. To the first then by the Merits of the Saints I apprehend the holy Doctor intends no more than those Gifts and Graces with which the Martyrs were indued both in their Lives and at their Deaths and that those that did meet together to commemorate these Martyrs did pray for those Gifts and Graces with which these Martyrs were indued and by which they arrived to that degree of perfection that their Lives and Deaths were Sacrifices with which God was well pleased therefore to infer that because the Christians meet together to commemorate the Martyrs to the end they might be made partakers of those Gifts and Graces with which the Martyrs were indued from on high That therefore they prayed to the Saints is a consequence which you would not allow in any other case whatsoever And Secondly consider the words of that great Saint and light of Gods Church and let us see what is to be understood by being assisted by the Prayers of the Martyrs I have observed that the blood of the Martyrs do cry How long O Lord holy and true dost thou not judge and avenge our blood Revel 6. 10. Abels blood it did call to Heaven Gen. 4. 10. If you will call this praying the point will soon be at an end If by these prayers the faithful may be said to be in a sort assisted then you and I shall not need to debate the Controversie any further for we shall soon put a period to this difference Nay Sir your own Divines from those words in the Revelations do teach That the Saints of God are present at their Tombs and Monuments and Relicks and have cited St. Jerome to prove the same And therefore I perceive it is that the Christians did meet together to commemorate the Martyrs at their respective Tombs or Monuments because from thence their cry did go to Heaven and by virtue of such Prayers and crys of these Martyrs the Church received benefit for calling for vengeance upon the wicked implies a calling for Mercy upon the Church In this sence they may be said to pray as blood may be said to have a Voice and Cry and doth it follow that because their blood doth pray and their blood hath a voice and doth Cry that we must pray to them I pray Sir in your next lay your Arguments a little closer and conclude aright from your Premises The Martyrs Prayers do assist
the faithful Ergo the faithful must pray to the Martyrs no young Logician would be guilty of such Reasoning You call St. Austin again to your Aid to prove that there was an Invocation and Adoration used at the Meetings of Christians to commemorate the Martyrs We offer to thee O Peter O Paul O Cyprian What was it that was offered pray in your next let us have the whole sence of the Father these are imperfect sayings and we will reply to them in the next but this by the way The words are no more than a Rhetorical Apostrophe to the Images or Tombs of these Saints The reason you say the holy Doctor gives for their Invocation is because of the Oblation they make to God who hath Crowned the Martyrs their Martyrdom was a Sacrifice with which God was well pleased and their Holiness comes up as a Memorial before God for he is not unmindful of their Blood which still doth cry from under the Altar which after a certain manner we may term an Oblation And in this Sence that great Doctor saith They make an Oblation But what then Because St. Austin doth Invocate the Saints that therefore he prays to them You know Sir Invocation doth not imply a belief that the Person Invocated doth hear or that the Person Invoked is prayed unto And this Sir will be made appear from those Divines and Doctors for which you have no small esteem I suppose Sir you have not forgotten that in your Church you use thus to Salute the holy Oyl Ave Sanctum Oleum All Hail thou holy Oyl Nor do I believe but that within a few days you did thus Salute a Cross of Wood or Silver or Brass Ave Rex noster I am confident you have prayed to the Cross thus O Crux ave spes unica hoc Passionis Tempore Auge Piis Justitiam Reis que dona veniam All Hail O Cross our only Hope in this time of the Passion Give thou increase of Righteousness unto the Godly and give thou Pardon unto Sinners You have seen the Prayer that Pope Bomface the Eighth made to be said before a Picture and Image of the Cross which is this O Crux altissima O Innocens Sanguis O Poena magna O Christi penuria O profunda Vulnera O Lanciae perforatio O Sanguinis fluctio O Cordis Fractio O Dei amara Mors O Dei veneranda Dignitas adjuva me in Vitam oeternam Amen O most high Cross O innocent Blood O great Pain O the Penury of Christ O the deep Wounds O the piercing through of the Spear O the flowing of the Blood O the breaking of the Heart O the bitter Death of God O the Worshipful Dignity of God help me unto everlasting Life I cannot believe Sir that you give Divine Worship unto a corruptable Creature or that you believe that Christ is there present under the Form of Wood. You know that the Sacrament hath been Invocated and yet the Sacrament is a thing unsensible as Epiphanius saith Dyonisius who as your Divines say did Invocate it but see what Pathymeres the Greek Paraphrast saith Expounding the Words in this Sence O Divinum Sacrum Mysterium affatur illud tanquam rem animatam He speaketh to the Sacrament as if it were indued with Sence and Life and yet the Sacrament is not a Thing that hath Life and Sence So Gregory the Great saith O Great and Holy Passeover Therefore Sir every thing that is called upon is not Adored with Divine Honour Consider Sir what your own Abdias saith of St. Andrew when he came to suffer upon the Cross for the Testimony of God and his Christ he represents the Holy Apostle thus speaking to the Cross Salve Crux c. All Hail thou Cross that here standest thus looking for me I come of my own accord unto thee for I know thy Secrecy I know thy Mystery I see in thee the things that are promised to me of my Lord Receive thou me O thou chosen Cross that an thus humbled for my God and help the poor Servant unto his Master Sir here are plain Words of Invocation here is manifest Adoration yet I hope you will not believe that St. Andrew did indeed give Divine Honour unto a Wooden Cross on which he was to suffer I pray consider the words of St. Ambrose Lib. 10. Cap. 22. in Lucam Observe how he doth speak to the Water of Baptism O Aqua quae humano aspersum Sanguine c. O thou Water that hast washed the World stained with Man's Blood O thou Water that deservest to be a Sacrament of Christ thou beginnest thou fulfillest the perfect Mysteries Do you think that St. Andrew's Cross had Eyes and Ears Do you think that the Baptismal Water had Eyes and Ears You cannot imagine therefore that St. Andrew expected to be heard by the Cross or St. Ambrose by the Water And as St. Ambrose did not expect to be heard so he designed no Divine Honour to the Water I pray consider what Devotion your Church doth use to the Girdle of the Blessed Virgin O Veneranda Zona fac nos Haeredes aeternae beatae Vitae hanc nostram vitam ab interitu conserva tuam Hereditatem tuum Populum O Intemeratae Zona intemerata conserva habeamus te vires Auxilium murum pro pugnaculum portum Salutare Refugium O Blessed Girdle make us the Inheritors of Eternal and Blessed Life and keep our present Life from Destruction O unspotted Girdle of the unspotted Virgin save thy Inheritance O save thy People be thou our Strength our Wall our Fort our Haven our Refuge This Prayer of your Divines is not taken out of Euthymius but it is taken out of Aloysius Lippomanus the Bishop of Verona where you had your Prayer to St. Theodore made by Nectarius for in the Margin he hath made this Observation upon the Prayer O quam magna mira petit a Veneranda Zona O how great and marvellous things he desireth of this Blessed Girdle From this Prayer you cannot say that either Euthymius or Lippomanus would have you Worship the Virgin Mary's Girdle with Divine Honour From all which I easily gather that though the Fathers did in the Fourth and Fifth Centuries Invocate and ask the Saints for Favours yet in that they paid them no Divine Honour Prayer being of its own nature due only to the Creator and not to the Creature nor indeed can any thinking Man justifie the Fathers in those Raptures and Rhetorical Apostrophe's in which their Zeal did exceed the bounds of their Knowledge for their Judgments were otherwise when they came to be more sedate and had taken these Raptures into consideration which I shall shew you by and by By your writing I perceive that you are so fond of the notion of the lawfulness of praying to Saints that you endeavour to deliver your notion from that great objection of the incapacity of the Saints hearing us in many
places far distant from each other at one and the same time for you must know that at the first creeping in of this fend notion the memory of those Martyrs were only kept up where their Bodies were Intombed and their Relicks kept but now you generally pray to them in many places at one and the same time where you have no Monuments of those Saints nor any of their Relicks which you do endeavour to prove offering several Authorities in vindication of the same The first Authority you produce is St. Augustine who as you say saith The Solution of this Question is beyond the reach of my Vnderstanding how the Martyrs help those which most certainly are helped by them whether or no they be themselves present at one time in so different places c. From whence you conclude that the holy Doctor Is certain that the Martyrs help their Clients at one and the same time in different places yet uncertain whether they were themselves present It was not say you his Perswasion that then the Saints help was to be required only where they were believed to be present This you say is a clear demonstration Your using the word Clyents is fitter for a Lawyer than a Divine of your station there might another word have been sound out but I let that pass and tell you that I do really believe the examples of the Martyrs have been of great use to the faithful and in this sence they may be said to help those that follow their good example you see it was past St. Austins understanding to solve the question How the Martyrs did help those that were their Clients as you call them in his Cura pro Mort. c. 16. but Sir suppose I should ask this question whether or no the Saints in Heaven have any knowledge at all of Humane Affairs on Earth I am sure there St. Austine can resolve me and he will tell us That the Dead can have no knowledge of our Affairs here upon Earth Mortui nesciunt etiam Sancti quid agant vivi etiam eorum filii Again Si rebus viventium interessent animae mortuorum c. If saith he so great and famous Patriarchs as Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not understand how the world went with their posterity how can it be that the dead should at all take notice of the living or intermeddle with assisting them De cura pro Mort. c. 13. 16. I pray Sir observe that St. Austin here is so far from praying to Saints that he tells you they are so far from helping or assisting that they know not your affairs on Errth for they have not the least knowledge of our condition Therefore when he saith the Christians are helped by the Martyrs you must not understand help as a consequent of your Prayers to them but of your following those holy Rules and Examples they have left you for by their Examples they may be said to help men Another Authority you produce is St. Gregory Nazianzen in his twelfth Oration who you say having largely shewed how the Martyrs cure Diseases put the Devil to flight c. He adds where their Bodies only are the same effect is had as from their Souls whether they are touched or worshipped The Reliques of Saints are much in Esteem in your Church and no Christian I think should offer any Indignity to them were they not false and fictitious and put upon Men in order to deceive them and those things termed to be Reliques which indeed are not so and many of the supposed Miracles done by them so foolish that a Man hath no reason to expect any miraculous Effects from them but rather ought to set them at nought they being the Inventions of Men to deceive the Simple but with your pardon I think St. Gregory here only speaketh of the Miracles that have been done by the Bodies of the Saints that have suffer'd for the Testimony of Jesus I will not dispute the Truth that the Holy Father delivers but I think from these words you cannot yet justifie your Doctrine of praying to Saints The Bodies of Martyrs cure Diseases and put the Devils to flight say you therefore must we pray to the Saints and Martyrs I think it by no means will follow Another Authority you produce is St. Ambrose in his Sermon upon the Holy Martyrs Nazarius and Celsus Have you invocated the Martyrs saith he He hears you every where who is honoured in the Martyrs according to his Dispensation who weighs your Vows and dispenceth his Gifts in so much is a nearer presence of the Intercessor granted as the Faith of the Clyent is more devout These words you say are St. Ambrose's words and so do several of your Divines But Sir I will offer you another saying of St. Ambrose as you call him in his Sixth Sermon upon St. Margaret Redere debemus Sanctis honorisicentium que nobis salutem profusione suis sanguinis perpererunt qui tam sacra hostia pro nostra propitiatione Domino suo oblati We must yield Honour unto the Saints which have procured Salvation for us by their shedding of their Bloud which also were offered up unto the Lord so Holy a Sacrifice for our Salvation You must not think Sir that any Protestant Divines will take either of these for the sayings of St. Ambrose for your Divines have miserably corrupted this Father and made him speak such Blasphemies against God and his Christ which that Holy Father would never have uttered and especially in his Sermons upon the Feasts of the Saints And the reason why I offer this is because that I find St. Ambrose is corrupted by Eutropius one of your own Authors and instead of Dominici sanguinis consecrationem He saith Dominici sanguinis dispensationem and again we find him in his Funeral Oration upon Theodosius to say these words Tu solus Domine Invocandus es Tu Rogandus ut eum in filiis Representes Thou alone O Lord art to be Invocated Thou art to be Intreated to make up the want of him in his Sons If a Saint and Martyr might lawfully be prayed unto then St. Ambrose was not Orthodox in this Request he put up to God. If he were Orthodox in this then God only is to be Invocated and not the Saints wherefore I conclude that when you Represent him to Admonish his Hearers to call upon the Saints that then you make him speak what your Divines have Forged and not his own Sence And this doth further appear if you will but consider that the Prayer you call his makes the Creature Omnipresent which is an Incommunicable Attribute of Almighty God of which great Blasphemy that Holy Father would not be Guilty But I suppose your Lippomanus or your Amphilochius hath helped you to this Prayer for in the old Edition of St. Ambrose I cannot find the Title of this Sermon but if they should be the words of St. Ambrose you know the word Invoke doth not always
imply Prayer but an Acknowledgement and the word here is sometimes taken for to own as that in Zach. 13. 9. So that the Holy Father if he did use those words he neither intended any Adoration to be paid to these Saints but only an Acknowledgment of their Graces and great Holiness and Faith in their Services and Sufferings for Christ and these were owned as Honourers of those Saints As for the Intercession there mentioned I never Read of any but that of their Blood which from under the Altar cryeth to Heaven but that any Man was justified or accepted or had a promise of being accepted but he that came to God in the Name of Christ alone I never read or heard of from the Scriptures In a word the Prayer as you call it is a muddy sort of business and scarce Sence as you have represented it You bring in Gregory the Great affirming that greater Miracles are often wrought where the Saints Bodies are not that our Mind being fixed upon God our Faith may have a greater Merit for as much as we know they repose not there and yet believe that they fail not to hear and grant our Requests I confess it is true that where the Primitive Christians did more trust in God that greater Miracles were wrought then by the Bodies of the Saints and those that have fixed their Minds upon God have received Eminent Favours from God as a Reward of their Faith But what of all this what have you to say to St. Gregory He is here brought in by you but I pray for what He doth indeed tell you that greater Miracles were wrought where the Bodies of the Saints were not therefore doth it follow that you must pray to them Nay the Bodies of the Saints not being there occasion'd some of the Christians to have their Minds fixed upon God Ergo the Prayer to Saints is lawful and they that have their Minds thus fixed their Faith hath a greater Merit therefore Prayers to Saints are lawful The Christians did know that their Bodies were not reposed in the Church where they were praying and this was an Argument of a strong Faith and therefore the Practice of the Church of Rome in praying to Saints is lawful You say St. Gregory saith That they hear and grant our Request That is we are owned and obtain favour from Heaven upon the consideration of our following their good Example for as God did much for the People of Israel for Abraham's Sake and saved a Ships Company for St. Paul's Sake if you will have it so worded And when God did shew any particular Favour to any Man for his Esteem that he had of God's Servants that were Martyrs it was often attributed to the Saint not believing that they did do it but only to ingage them to Honour the Memory of the Saints and to follow their good Examples But I think Sir St. Gregory the Great is somewhat too young an Author to be brought upon the Stage to prove this Doctrine You advanced next as Witnesses to your Doctrine by you defended those Fathers who owned that the same Saints Reliques lay in several places were Honoured in and carried about to distant places the Evident import whereof is that the Saints may be worshipped in many nay in a thousand different places In a word wherever the God of Saints is as St. Ambrose you say observes who every where manifests these Prayers to his Saints and grants the Blessings asked by their Intercession These Sir are your own words what proof have you for this What doth St. Ambrose observe he observes you say That the God of these Saints is every where and so do I and all Protestants and we believe that he doth hear us at all times and in all places Doth St. Ambrose say that therefore we must Worship the Saints Because God heareth us every where therefore must we pray to the Saints They make Intercession for those that pray to God and have Blessings granted by their Intercession How comes this to pass God saith St. Ambrose reveals it to them Suppose all this be true Doth it therefore follow we must pray to them because by Virtue of a Divine Revelation or Manifestation they come to understand that we have made our Prayers to God. This is not a way of Arguing that becomes a Grave Father of the Society The God of these Saints is every where therefore we ought to pray to him only as that Father saith But I pray in your next tell us where St. Ambrose makes this Observation and upon what Occasion Till then I cannot see any just Reason you have to bring in St. Ambrose for a Voucher I believe he will stand you in little stead But having taken your leave of St. Ambrose you then begin to produce your main Witnesses in Defence of your Doctrine The first you produce is St. Gregory Nazianzen What would you have him to prove Would you have him to prove that the Saints Relicks lying in several places and being Honoured in and carried about to distant places they may be Worshipped in many yea in a thousand different places I pray what saith St. Gregory He attests that a little Dust the least Splinter of their decayed Bones a Lock of their Hair their Clothes some drops though almost worn off of their Bloud have as much Worship paid as their whole Body that the very calling of the place by the Martyrs Name was known to him to have as much Efficacy as if the whole Body had lain there I am much surprized at this Authority or Witness for here is not one word to justifie the Doctrine of praying to Saints unless you will Argue thus That some of Relicks of the Saints have as much Worship paid to them as the whole Body Ergo the praying to Saints is lawful and they may be prayed to at one and the same time in a thousand different places This Logic Sir will not do but let us go on the very calling of a place by a Martyrs Name was known to St. Gregory to have as much Efficacy as if the whole Body had lain there I believe as much to the full and so you and I shall agree there but what then I hope you will let us see what will follow upon this Praying to Saints is Lawful and praying to them at one and the same time in different places By no means I do think Logicians of very little Proficiency would detect this way of Arguing Your second Testimony is from Theodoret who is brought in saying thus Their Bodies are not each in their own Monument but being divied amongst Cities and Villages are by them esteemed the Preservers of their Souls and Bodies and called their Physicians and Honoured as their Protectors and Guards and making use of their Intercession they by them obtain Divine Benefits and their divided Bodies retain their Power intire This was a Learned Writer but I cannot perceive what Service he doth you
is no mention made of praying to Saints nor of the Saints Intercession for us It hath been commonly observed when the learned Writers of your Church have wanted Scripture for any Point or Notion of Religion which they have endeavoured to defend then they pretend the Authority of the Fathers and Counsels to justifie them in the maintenance of their Notions and in particular this practice of your Church in pray-to Saints and Angels Your Bellarmine says That all the Fathers both of the Greek and Latin Churches teach us to pray to Saints Salmeron and Stapleton and others do speak the same Language but all of you to this day have so inured your Tongues to talk of the Fathers that you can hardly use any other form of Speech nay you have attempted to bring several of the Fathers of the first four or five hundred years But you have not yet produced one Testimony out of any Father whereby it may appear that any account at all was made of it nay those whom you have named were all against it I could produce Testimonies in abundance for this my Assertion but it would be too tedious for me to Write and you to Read therefore take a tast of these few Ignatius who flourished about the year of our Lord 140. in his Epistle to the Philadelphians writeth thus You Virgins have none but Jesus Christ before your Eyes in your Prayers and the Father of Jesus Christ Ignat. ep 6. By which Testimony it appears to me that the Christians of his time did not so much as pray to the Virgin Mary herself To the same effect is that of Origen We must pray to him alone who is God above all things to him also we must pray who is the Word the only Son of God and the first Born of all Creatures Tom. 8. cont celsum pag. 395. in eod lib. p. 381. 384. 402. 416. 420. Tom. 5. conta celsum lib. 8. in ep ad Rom. c. 10. Athan. in orat 3. contr Arrian To God alone saith he it belongeth to be Worshipped and the Angels themselves are not ignorant hereof for although they excel in Glory yet are they but Creatures and are none of those that are Worshipped but of those that Worship the Lord And again because Jesus Christ is not a Creature but begotten of the very Substance of the Father and is by Nature the Son of God therefore he is to be Worshipped Therefore Sir what becomes of your urging of Athanasius for countenancing of Invocation and Prayer to the Saints and of his Prayer as you call it to the Virgin Mary Consider Origen once more and he hath this expression if I understand his Greek aright That we ought not to Worship our Fellow-worshippers nor to pray to those that pray themselves which saying of this great Doctor agrees with that passage in the Revelations c. 22. 9. c. 19 10. When St. John offered to Worship the Angel he saith to him See thou do it not for I am thy Fellow-Servant and of thy Brethren the Prophets and of them that keep the sayings of this Book Worship God. That great Doctor saith in another place If Celsus will have us to procure the good Will of any others after him that is God over all let him consider that when the Body is moved the shaddow thereof doth follow it So in like manner having God propitious to us who is over all it follows that we shall have all his Friends both Angels and Saints loving to us for they have a fellow-feeling with them that are thought fit to find favour with God neither are they only favourable unto such but they work with them also that are willing to do Service unto him who is God over all and are friendly to them and pray and intreat with them so as we boldly say that when Men with Resolution propose unto themselves the best things do pray unto God many thousands of the Sacred Powers pray together with them unspoken to Origen lib. 8. contr celsum p. 432 433. The Writings of Origen are full of Evident Testimonies against this Doctrine for which you so earnestly contend And Athanasius wrote as much as he about this Point and the Arrian Heresie which had spread itself in his time in many considerable parts of Christendom against which he contended with great Zeal and as great Judgment gave him occasion for it They maintained Christ was a meer Creature and yet they prayed unto him The Holy Doctor on the other side did with the Orthodox Fathers maintain That if he were Created he must not be Invocated What reason had they to pray to Christ who was a meer Creature You very well remember that their Plea was because the Word of God dwelt in him then he argueth upon them thus If you Worship the Man Christ because the Word of God dwelt in him at the same time Worship also the Saints who have the Word of God dwelling in them The Word of God dwelling in Christ was no manner of Plea or Argument for his being Worshipped but because he is not a Creature but is begotten of the very Substance of his Father and is by Nature the Son of God therefore he is to be Worshipped If you find St. Athanasius to say That the Saints are by Nature the Sons of God and begotten of the Substance of the Father then we must Worship the Saints but since they are the Children of God by Adoption and Grace and by Nature they were the Children of Wrath as well as those who are yet dead in Trespasses and Sins though since their Conversion the Word of God and Seed of God remaineth in them and they are not to be Worshipped If the Plea of the Arrians for the Worship of Christ who they asserted to be a meer Creature had been justifiable then by Vertue of the said Plea it had been lawful to Worship the Saints but as the Plea cannot maintain the Arrians in the Worshipping of Christ so that Plea will not justifie you nor your Church in the Practice of Praying to Saints Hence it is that the great Doctor St. Athanasius That if you Worship the Man Christ because the Word of God abideth in him Worship also the Saints who have the Word of God abiding in them I humbly conceive it may not be unnecessary to put you in mind that as the Greek Fathers now cited do by no means Countenance your Doctrine and Practice of Praying to Saints and Angels there are also several Latin Fathers who are of the same Opinion Tertullian who lived about the beginning of the third Century he saith Haec ab alio orare non possum quam aquo me scio consecuturum quoniam ut ipse est qui solum praestat c. The substance of which words is this He tells us that such and such things he might not pray for from any other but from him from whom he knew he should obtain them because it is he who alone is
able to give and I am he for whom they must be obtained being his Servant who observe him alone Apologetic c. 30. There is a Discourse of the Trinity by Novatian which is added to the Works of Tertullian in which you may meet this passage If Christ be only a Man Why is a Man called upon in our Prayers as a Mediator seeing that the Invocation of a Man is judged of no Efficacy to Salvation Why also is Hope reposed in him seeing Hope in Man is Accursed From hence observe that if Christ may not be Prayed unto if he were but a Man then the Saints who are but Men may not be prayed unto If Christ be but a Man he cannot be prayed unto as a Mediator therefore how can you justifie Praying to Saints as Mediators seeing they are but Men If a Prayer to a Man be of no Efficacy to Salvation then Prayer to Saints can be of no Efficacy to Salvation since they are but Men. If Christ were but a meer Man then why is Hope reposed in him the Saints being but Men Why should Hope be reposed in them for if you pray to Saints you must not only believe that they hear you but hope that they will answer you which hope is in vain because they are but Men. Observe what he saith further Si Homo tantum modo Christus quomodo adest ubique invocatus haec-Hominis Natura non sit sed Dei ut adesse omni loco possit If Christ be only Man how is he present being called upon every where seeing this is not the Man but God that can be present in every place De Trinit c. 14. The Saints being only Men how are they present being called upon every where they cannot be in all places it being the Nature of God only to be present in every place If the Omnipresence of God be the great Argument why we should call upon him every where then you can give no reason why the Saints should be called upon every where because they are not Omnipresent We could not justifie Praying to Christ every where as Mediator if he were but a meer Man because as such as he could not be in every place How then can you justifie Praying to Saints every where as Mediators sure they cannot as Men be in every place Observe what St. Ambrose saith in his Funeral Oration upon Theodosius the Emperour Tu solus Domine Invocandus es Tu Rogandus ut eum in filiis Representes Thou only O Lord art to be Invocated Thou art to be Intreated to make up the want of him in his Sons If this Holy Doctor saith true which is beyond all Contradiction then how can you justifie the Invocation and Prayer to Saints as it is practised in your Church Why might not St. Ambrose have applied himself to the Saints to make up the want of Theodosius in his Sons if that the Praying to Saints had been lawful And if the Praying to Saints be lawful how can this passage of that great Doctor be by you justified If you can but reconcile this you shall be my great Oracle for if God alone be to be called upon and Intreated then none else ought to be called upon and Intreated Why then are your Saints called upon and Intreated Consider that passage of St. Augustine in his Confessions he thus Prays unto God Quem invenirem qui me Reconciliaret tibi an eundem mihi fuit ad Angelelos qua prece quibus Sacramentis multi conantes ad te redire neque per seipsos volentes ficut audio tentaverunt haec inciderunt in disiderium curiosarum Visionem digni habiti sunt Illusionibus Whom shall I find that might Reconcile me to thee Should I go to Angels with what Prayer With what Sacraments Many endeavouring to return unto thee and not being able to do it by themselves as I hear have tryed these things and have often fallen into the Desire of curious Visions and were accounted worthy of Delusion If Angels and Saints had been Mediators as your Church saith they are then St. Austin could have lain under no great difficulty of finding some body to Reconcile him to God If praying to Angels had been a Doctrine according to Truth he would not have wanted a Prayer He saith Should I have gone to the Angels With what Prayer If praying to Angels had been a received Doctrine there would have been Directions given with what Prayer he should have gone to them and the very same may be said of the Saints Should we go then with what Prayer See what he farther saith I confess and know my Soul is Defiled But who shall cleanse it or to whom else should I cry besides thee Confess lib. 10. c. 41. Sir The Question had been altogether needless or else soon answered had your Doctrine been true the Distemper that he laboured under had soon been cured had your Practice been lawful If it were lawful for St. Austine to cry to none but to God and seek redress from him then why doth your Church engage us to call upon Saints and Angels There is another Saying of the same Father that doth appear against your Practice and Doctrine in Controversie in these words Divine singulariter in Ecclesia Catholica traditur nullam Creaturam collendam esse c. In the Catholick Church it is divinely and singularly delivered that no Creature is to be Worshipped by the Soul but only he that is Creator of all things De quantit Animae C. 34. It is apparent that the Word of God is against you for you have no warrant from thence for this assertion nay you have the express Words of Christ against it Mat. 4. 10. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve Which Injunction was delivered by Moses to the Jews Deut. 6. 13. chap. 10. 20. And by the Prophet Samuel 1 Sam. 7. 3. with a Promise of their being deliver'd out of the hands of the Philistines and not only so but you have a Tradition of the Church Catholick Traditur saith the holy Doctor in Ecclesia Catholica nullam Creaturam collendam esse From whence I argue if no Creature is to be worshipped but God only who is the Creator of all things then the Saints who are but Creatures are by no means to be worshipped because Worship is only due to God for that he is the Creator of all things Again the same Doctor saith Christus Sacerdos est qui nunc Ingressus in interiora veli Solus ibi ex his qui Carnem Gustaverant interpellat pro nobis in cujus rei figura in illo primo populo in illo primo templo unus sacerdos intrabat in Sancta Sanctorum populus omnis foras stabat Jesus Christ is the Priest who being now enter'd within the Vail alone there of them that have been partakers of Flesh doth make Intercession for us in figure of which thing amongst that first People