put case these Abbates and Bishops haue no knowledge Apolog. What if they vnderstaÌ„d nothing what religion is nor howe we ought to thinke of God I put case the pronouncing and ministring of the lawe be decayed in Priestes and good counsell faile in the Elders as the Prophete Micheas saieth the nyght to be vnto them in stede of a vision and the darkenesse in stede of propheÌ„siyng Or as Esaias saieth what if all the watchmen of the Citie are become blinde What if yâ— salt haue lost his propre streÌ„gth and sauerines And as Christ sayeth be good for no vse scant worth the casting on the dunghill The lesse knowledge you would make the bishops and Abbats to haue Con. 280. the more miracle it wil be that without knowledge they haue such learning as their bookes and preachings and doinges doe testifie Take for an example the Catholike Bishops of England Is there among them all any one against whom you may come with your textes of Micheas Esaias or Christ our Sauiour Yet you put the case they haue no knowledge I aunswere that your case is a verie hard one But yet to remedie somewhat this matter if our Bisshops should be so vnlearned and ignorant I thinke it were better for the common wealth to set them to Schole than to put them in prison Or if they be nothing mete for lerniÌ„g to set them rather at libertie being suche as can hurte the procedinges nothing for lacke of good life and knowledge than to kepe them in so preciselie and politikely as though euerie worde that they should speake were able to coÌ„found an heretik Howe then if the Pope haue seene none of these thinges Apolog. and haue neuer reade either the Scriptures or the old Fathers or yet his owne Councels I aunswer â–ª but first Con. 284 I will also put a case What if there were no shame in a man What if there were no regarde of the sight of God What if in all thinges he should seeke for this onlie howe to fill the peoples eares and to make them gather of an exceading greate word somewhat at the least Wâ—â—ld there be anie discretion or staie in suche a one of putting cases of deniyng moste manifeste truthes of slaundering worthie persons and goeyng against sense and reason So is it with the Authours of the Apologie For how theÌ„ say they if the Pope haue neuer readen either the scriptures or the old fathers or yet his owne CouÌ„cels How then Are ye not ashamed to put such a case as neither euer yet happened nor euer is like to come to passe by any reason Shew the occasion of this your suspition and feare Declare your selfe to be of greater experience and consideration than those are which quake for feare where no cause is Name anie one Pope that hath not bene so learned that you might welthink him to haue readen the Scriptures Ye can name none at al. You put only a case with how then if he hath neuer readen the Scriptures And I aunswer that if it be so it is a great miracle And that except you bring furth some certificate of it it is not to be beleued But neither you meant it I suppose to affirme it only ye thought it enoughe to speake much as thoughe you could bring furth somwhat And to leaue it to your Reader to suspect somwhat although you proued nothing I confesse vnto you I can not tel what to saye to such What thens and What yfs But if you haue any arte in iudging of them I pray you if the skye should fal were not many larkes like to be taken And if such kindes of What yfs as you haue put might be folowed in other examples were not manie fooles like to be made and preferred by it and many Wyll Sommers would they not be found in England which would quickly saie what if all the Councell be vnlearned And what if poore knaues haue as great a gift of wisedome and knowledge as the Noble and Learned of the world Thus far concerning this matter The 11. Chapiter confuting a blasphemous Lye BY manie smal practises at length an habite is goten and he that refrayneth not his tongue and thought in the lesse shal make it so fond and slipperie that it will offende in the greater And the Apologie of England whyles it toke not good heede inough to speake trulie of men it is come to that blind audacitie that it belieth God him selfe For this cause therefore that the Authours thereof maie the better consider of theyr rashnes and the Indifferent Reader may the more plainelie see that he muste not truste euerie Sprite I place this lie by it selfe as a singular one without felowes and without coÌ„parison and I call it as it deserueth a Blasphemous lye For thus they saie in defence of theyr discession from the Catholike Church Though we haue departed from that Church whiche these men cal Catholike Apolog. by that meanes get vs enuy amongst them that want skyl to iudge yet thys is inough for vs it ought to be inough for euerie wyse and good man and one that maketh accompt of euerlasting life that we haue gone from that Churche which had power to erre which Christ who can not erre told so long before it should erre Where find ye this in anie Ghospel Con. 322 Or why tel ye not your Reader of it that he also might perceaue it Or why directe ye him not to the place at the leaste where he might seeke it Can it be any other than wicked impudencie to make Christ saie that which he neuer saied If Christ hath foreâ—old it in deede that our Churche shoulde erre shewe vs that and there is nothing to be replied Fathers Councels Stories Apologies Replies Reioynders al other labours maie be spared onelie that place were to be shewed where Christ hath so plainly coÌ„founded vs. For this you maie be sure if ye can proue that our Church maie erre you shal perswade al the sort of vs to forsake it and get vs to an other of whiche we maie be sure it can not erre But forasmuch as ye can bring furthe no such word of Christ why make ye such a wretched crake as though ye were departed from a church that may erre to a better congregation or as though Christ should beare witnes vnto the goodnes of your doeynges by his foretelling that our Churche should erre Here ye are to be pressed aÌ„d here should ye be enforced to aunswer For by this place it will quickely be seen who hath woÌ„ne or who hath lost For if it were S. Ambrose or S. Augustin that did affirme anie thing the Catholike would so farre accepte it as he should see other Fathers to agree to it and the heretike woulde so litle make of it that if all the fathers bysides did saie with them he woulde not be bound to folow theyr authority because they al were meÌ„ But if Christ
would haue had him to surrender the Empire And taking his Father prisoner he committed hym to straight custodie without anie motion of the Pope therevnto as with whome also he was at Variance Then as touching the Shearing or thrusting him into A Moâ—asterie or famishing of Henrie the fourth lette hym that made these shamefull lyes shewe his Authour and defende hym selfe Who Apolog. so ilfauouredlie and monstrouslie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete and as thoughe that were not suffyciente added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cockatrice and shalt tread the Lyon and Dragon vnder thy feete Who this should be Conf. 188 your selues can not tell whiche are the onelie mainteiners of the tale For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde sometymes to Innocentius the eyght sometymes to Alexander the thyrde And the fact being so strainge and singular that it coulde not be but notorious yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof that ye knowe not who should haue done it But the trueth is no graue writer maketh any mention of such behauiour of the Pope The Emperour Theodosius 〈◊〉 as Socraâ—es sayth did not only sit emongs the Bishopes but also ordered the whole arguiâ—g of the cause Here you speake of sitting 〈…〉 as though Thâ—odâ—sius had then ben at some General Councel You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation The plaine storie is Hist. 〈◊〉 9 ca. 19 Theodosius conâ—erred familiarly in his owne palace with the Bishope of Constantinople howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith And when the heretikes refused one good way which was to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers he went an other waie to worke with theÌ„ whiche was that eche of them should bring furthe in writing that which he had to say for his faith Which being don the Emperour read ouer theyr writings aÌ„d reiected the ArriaÌ„s MacedoniaÌ„s and Eunomians heresies and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Nicene Councel touching the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel nor proueth that an Emperour may sit there as Iudge emong the Bishops nor that Theodosius did vpon his owne heade and as Supreme Gouernour that which Socrates here reporteth of him but that he folowed the Councel of his Bishope Nectarius and the former decrees of the Nicene Councel Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes Apolog. Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstaÌ„ding thei were Peters successours and Christes Uicars No Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian but his Ladie Theodora which was a great mainteiner of heretikes and when women theyr husbandes being alyue be so ferueÌ„t in sprite that they must haue such Popes as please them selues no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie handeled Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie Apolog. for putting awaye Images contrary to the second Councel at Nice This is so false Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true For whereas the heretikes named Imagebreakers Abbas Vrsper Anselm Ryd PeÌ„cerus Carion Pantalâ—o had holden a CouÌ„cel at Constantinople for abrogating of Images directly against this impietie of theyrs Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Frankeford in Germanie So muche it lacketh that Charles the greate should be a fauourer of Imagebreakers The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fathers and other VVriters S. Augustin Apolog. wheÌ„ he disputed against PetiliaÌ„ an heretik of the side of the Donatistes let not these words Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c 30 quod he be heard betwen vs I say or you say let vs rather speake in this wise thus sayth the Lord there let vs seeke the Church there let vs boult out the cause THe question betwene S. Augustine aÌ„d the Donatistes was this Conf. 29. wher the Church should be Now to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks the Donatistes were busie alwaies in rehersing how the Catholikes had burned the holie bokes aÌ„d had offred incense to Idols and had persequuted InnoceÌ„tes like as the protestaÌ„tes in these daies wheÌ„ the questioÌ„ is of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome thei vse to make a long tale how such a Pope was a NecromaÌ„cer and such a one a leacheroâ—s man and some other proude and ambitious Now although S. Augustine mighâ— and did also in sundry places say truelyâ— that the obiections of the Donatisteâ— were false Augu. de vnit Eccles ca. 2. IdeÌ„ lib. 2. coÌ„t epist. petil c. 8. and though he might brinâ— furth against them also greater examples of their faults yet considering thaâ— such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other doe not perteine to the question proponed And seeing that altercation and strife only waâ— mainteined thereby whiles eche partâ— would say â–ª the other lied and would noâ— ceasse to tell what they could one of thâ— other being not credited yet one of thâ— other S. Augustine therefore not desirous to chide but earnest to proue thâ— Churche to be on his side vseth thesâ— wordes De vnit Eccl. c. â— Let vs not heare This I saie or This thou saiest but let vs heare this saieth our Lord â–ª After which wordes these folowe whiche the Apologiâ— should not haue omitted Truly ther bâ— extant our Lordes bookes the authoritie of which we both do agree with al we both beleue we both serue and obey There let vs seeke the Church there vs boult out our cause For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes is not conuenient And to credit her at the reporte and coÌ„meÌ„dation of a baser aÌ„d vnworthier witnes then her self is very dishonorable It remaineth therefore that her cause be examined by the Scriptures as whiche haue so great authority and are so generally receiued And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God that in theyr seueral causes the Church sâ—ould declare the scriptures and the scriptures the church And so wheÌ„ any maÌ„ beleueth the church and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture I would say vnto him let vs haue no more these words I saie or you say but let vs heare rather this saieth the Church On the other side when one beleueth the scriptures as heretikes thinke they do and would reason with me about the Church where it should be I would answer Let not these wordes be hearâ— among vs I say or you say but let vs heare This saith the Scripture Therefore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists which was where the Church should be the best waye was only to appeale to Scriptures Againe the Donatistes admitteâ— the Scriptures but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull recordes either of the
Ecclesiasticall or the Temporall Court to encounter them withal they did not belieue And so I say and thou sayest went to and fro betwene them without anie conclusion or profite To driue therefore the mater to some Issue let vs heare no more saieth he I saie or thou sayest but this sayeth our Lorde his bookes we both belieue we both obey there let vs seeke the Church Now in other Kyndes of question as of fasting receiuing the SacrameÌ„ts keping of holy dayes and other traditions S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie him selfe saying of these and the like in his Epistle ad Ianuarium August â— epist. 116. ad â—anuarium What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe thereof to dispute it is a most insolent madnes Likewise also towarde such kynde of Aduersaries as woulde be tried hy testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures or without expresse Scripture he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie This saieth our Lorde but well would haue bene contented that we should saie â–ª this saieth Cyprian Ambrose Basile c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers before and in his tyme after this fasshion Quod credunt Contra IulianuÌ„ PelagianuÌ„ lib. 1. ca. 2. credo that whiche they beleue I beleue that whiche they say I say c. Therefore ye haue abused very muche your Reader and S. Augustine bothe making the one to thinke the other to testifie that we should not fight against Heretikes but with expresse Scripture onelie Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith Apolog. that Christ thoâ—gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode yet is euer present with vs concerning his Godhead The forme of a seruant is one thing Confut. 3â— and manhood is an other The forme perteineth to shape and figure which couereth our substance and maketh it visible the manhood perteineth to the inwarde nature and is only intelligible The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes that Christ is with vs now in earth after the forme of a seruant The second yet they confesse and belieue that he is with vs really in his manhood The first is Fulgentius true sayeng to the king Thrasimund The second is your deprauing of Fulgentius in face of the worlde Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion Apolog. and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good It will neuer I feare be better with you Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene contrarie to the Apostle And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng that he which hath a wyfe is carefull for the thinges of the world 1. Cor. 7. and is diuided thinke you that any Auncient Father or writer whose testimonie your selfe doe trust were likely to say that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery for that he is maried I am glad ye geue credit to Sozomenus and Nazianzene vsing them for witnesses that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes and crie them mercy for abusiug them Sozomenus saith thus speaking of SpiridioÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 1. c. â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Spiridion waâ— an husband man hauyng wyfe anâ— chyldren but he was not therefore the worse to Godward How thinke you then doth he praise Mariage Doth he saie He serued God the better and wyth more hablenes by reason thereof Doth he not rather note it as a rare and a singular grace in him that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mariage with A but yet saying Although he put himself in bondes of mariage yet he liued so therein as he was letted no whyt therefore from the attaining of perfect vertue and folowing of wisedome As who should say it commeth most times so to passe that when students or holy men are maried they looke but seldome on their bookes but wait vpon the busines of the world yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Father For he although he put himself in bonds of mariage yet he was no whit letted therefore c. In which words he coÌ„mendeth his vertue and geueth no exaÌ„ple to vnmaried Priests that if they wil be furthered to perfectioÌ„ they should not be without a bedfelow nomore thaÌ„ he which should report of an other that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them that proue that it is a right waye to temperance alwaies to be at many and fine dishes Whereas contrariwise in all things that are delectable vnto the senses and hurtfull by excesse vnto morall vertues the safest way is to flee from occasions of euill vntil by longe custome an habite be obteined in the vertue And then as it is an argument of greate perfection to liue with a woman and nothing to be hindred in deuotion by her so it is so rare a vertue and needelesse thoughe it be in a man to be practised that as it may sometimes come to passe that one is not the worse yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vnsensible which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection to be at bed and at borde with a woman The more you haue then to answer for which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Hierome Al these things saith he which without the testimony of the Scriptures Apolog. are holdeÌ„ as deliuered from the Apostles be throughly smitten doune by the sword of Gods worde He saith not generally al those things Conf. 30 oiÌ„a but In â—rinâ—uÌ„ cap. Aggaei Sed alia that is and other thinges also And he saith not which are holden asseruÌ„tur but which they find and fâ—ncie meaning heretikes of whom onely he speaketh in that place And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions but a special prouision against the deceits of heretikes It was ryghtly said by Pius the second a bishop of Rome Apolog that he sawe many causes why wiues should be taken away from Priests but many moe and more weighty causes why they ought to be restored to them againe His wordes Conf. â—0 as Platina reporteth are these that mariage hath bene takeÌ„ froÌ„ Priestes with great reason And that it semeth it were to be restored again with greater Note it semeth not it ought and note greater reaâ—on and not manie moe and more weyghtie And if he had so ernestly spoken as you suppose yet dothe he not allowe the mariage of priestes whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of theÌ„ in his time that he thought the causes why they might be permited to
had in his owne power to pleasure whom he listeth which is nothing so For if we shal consider the acte of the Priest as it is his owne Psonal so doth he according to his deuoute intention not by authoritie but by supplication obtaine a vertue and influence to come frome Christ to them for whom he specially offereth â— But himselfe also being a poore wretche and compassed with infirmitie he neuer learned of the Church so proudly to speake as that I am able to do this by my Masse Againe if it were true and if the Church did so teache that the Priest is able of his own self without asking leaue to make applications of Christes merits which in dede is not so yet to say that he maie applie al the merites of Christes passion is altogeather impossible For whereas there is no proportion betwen a finite thinge and an infinite the Priest which hath a limited Authoritie and such a power as hath an end how can he stretche it to the distributing of all the merites of Christes death whiche are endelesse and infinite Therefore I saie discharge your selues And concerning that absurditie by which you would encrease your readers indignation against our cause saying that we distribute and applye Christes merites when the parties thinke nothing on the mater that is not so vnreasonable as the vnwise brother would thinke it Whereas the praiers of the English congregation if in dede God accepted them maie procure strength in the Lorde vnto the brothers of France or Germanie although they were either a sleping or drinking It is a shameful parte and ful of infidelitie Apolog. that we see euerie where used in the Churches of our Aduersaryes that they wil haue innumerable sortes of mediatours Innumerable Conf. 12â— This is one plaine lye For the Churche knoweth but two the one when the party which commeth in betweene to entreate and make peace maie by equalytie or Authoritie haue to doe with both of whiche sorte Ihesus Christ alone is a mediatour being perfite God nothing inferiour to his Father and perfite Man nothing disdaining a man The other when by waye of requeste onelie and by intercession the freindes and acquaintaunce of both sides speake a good worde and fauorable for the partie distressed vnable by them selues to commmaunde or woorke anie thing but by the fauor and especiall grace of him whiche hath the better Of this sorte are all the Saintes of heauen aâ—d al good men in earth And poore men can not tell to whiche Saynct it were best to turne them first Apolog. Blessing to your hart that you care for the poore emong whom I neuer hard of anie which was in the doubt of whiche you speake But if it be so in anie it maie quickly be told him that he study not loÌ„g about the mater but praie generally in short wordes and say O all ye Saintes of God pray for me What would these men haue saied Apolog. when in al Councels newe ordres new decrees continually were deuised Marie we would haue stoode to the Catholike CouÌ„cels Confut. 186. in which new Credes from the old were neuer made but the old made more plaine by expounding in plainer words the faith that was before Some of the Fryers Apolog. and Monkes put a greate holynes in eating of fyshe and some in eating of hearbes some in wearing of shewes and some wearing of Sandales some goeing in a linen garment and some in wollen If by some ye meane special persons Confut. .143 I can not tel what nor where When ye name them to vs or wil send your charitable letters to them I warrant you they shal be spoken withal But whereas this appertaineth not to the common cause of the Church or the coÌ„trouersie and questioÌ„ betwene vs what Frier Tucke or Don Roger doe thinke priuatly therefore if by the worde one ye meane the whole orders of Friers and MoÌ„kes and make this sense that some orders of Friers put a great holines in fish aÌ„d some in flesh c. Then doe most shamefully and vilie slander them For S. Bernardan Abbate instructeth his Monkes after this sorte Corporum conuersio si sola fuerit Serm. 2. in capitâ— Ieiunij nulla erit that is the conuersion of the bodies if it be nothing but that it is nothing And by conuerâ—ion of the bodies he meaneth as it foloweth in the sermon the shauing of Monkes the coteÌ„ the Rule of theyr fastes and apointed howres of singing And Petrus a Soto the diuinitie Reader in Oxforth in Quene Maries tymes himself being a Dominican Frier and keeping himselfe faithâ—ully within his order yet he made no such accompt of externall thinges as you falsely sclaunder Monkes and Friers to make But as all learned men doe when they write of the true worshipping of God â–ª so he expresly sayth with the Apostle Tract de instâ— Sac. Iect 5. That Corporal exercise is profitable to little but Pietie and deuotioÌ„ is profitable to al thinges â— Tim. 4. And againe Rom. 14 The kingdome of God is not meate and drinke bâ—t Iustice and peace and ioy in the â—olygost Bring you furth now on the 〈◊〉 side that Religious meÌ„ put an holines in such externall ceremonies or rules aâ— you specifie Zuinglians and Lutherans vary not betwixt them selues vpon the principles fouÌ„dations of our ReligioÌ„ â–ª 〈…〉 God Apolog. 1. nor Christ nor the Holygost nor of the meanes to iustification nor yet euerlasting life but Upon one only question which is neither weighty nor greate Neither mistrust we or make any dout at all But they will shortly be agreed They vary about the body of Christ Confut. â— the one confessing a true presence thereof in the Sacrament The other withstanding it and faining Christe to be present by figure onlie This is one Neither in the Sacrament only doe they differ Nicolaus Gallus in the sibus hypo but also in questions of the law of the Ghopel of iustification and of good workes as Nicolaus Gallus a Lutherane protesteth against them Nowe whether the question of Christes presence be weightie or no let him be iudge whiche heareth Christ saying Nisi manducaueritis Ioan. 6. excepte ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shal not haue lyfe in you c. This is the third This which foloweth I note not as a lie 〈◊〉 as a sensible and vain foly â–ª for the 〈◊〉 theÌ„selues striuiÌ„g euery day more aÌ„d more th' one against th' other aÌ„d as Amsâ—orphiê° a LutheraÌ„ witnesseth their coÌ„tradictioÌ„s beiÌ„g vnable by any possibility to be made agree togeather How ful of vaine hope are you which haue so litle doubt of theyr concorde that ye trust they will be agreed shortly They haue throweÌ„ vs into prison Apolog. into water into fyer and haue embrued themselues in our bloud not because we were either Adulterers or Robbers or Murtherers
bycause he fansied him not wroÌ„gfully placed Pipine in his rome Chilperike was so good a Prince Confut. that He was commoÌ„ly called stupidus a dolt He was also wholy geuen to belly chere aÌ„d loue of womeÌ„ And therfore the whole realme of Fraunce made ernest sute to the Pope that they might be loosed from theyr othe made vnto him wherby it appereth that the Pope folowed not an only fansy of hys own but the requeste and aduise of a whole Countrie Now as for placing of Pipine wrongfully I knowe not how they could make it probable except he were made kinge against the good willes of the nobility aÌ„d communaltie of Fraunce For whereas euery common wealth is greater thaÌ„ the Prince which gouerneth it and maie depose the same vppon lawfull cause and whereas ryot and doltishnes are causes sufficient so to does as making the prince vnable to gouerne it wel it foloweth coÌ„sequeÌ„tly that if the whole state of FrauÌ„ce deposed Chilperike and erected Pipine ther was not fault coÌ„mittedin so doying He vtterly destroyed the state of the most florishing Citie and commoÌ„ wealth of Florence Apolog. his owne natiue countrie How great words vtterly destroied and Confut. florishing Citie It was neuer more quiet thaÌ„ it is now vnder the Duke For by naturall reason vnder one certaine heade peace is better maintained then in nuÌ„ber of families aÌ„d factioÌ„s be they neuer so smal And by experieÌ„ce they do feele that they haue lesse stur aÌ„d vprising thaÌ„ they haue knowen whereas vnto fourtie 〈◊〉 which they had before aboute the 〈◊〉 place they haue not one as nowe All these were Popes Apolog. all Peters sucesâ—â— all most holy fathers whose seueral â—â—oordes we must take to be as good as 〈◊〉 Ghospels Who told ye so Con. 184 Wher find ye it so Who 〈◊〉 taught you to lie so For not only the â—opes words but also his priuat writings 〈◊〉 taken to be subiect vnto errours and â—gnorance as other mens doings are but â—ot his definitiue sentence vpon any maâ—â—er to be generallie beleued The selfe same meÌ„ which haue led theyr 〈◊〉 at Rome Apolog. in yâ— holy city in the face of the most holy father who also were able to se 〈◊〉 theyr secrets at no time departed froÌ„ 〈◊〉 catholike faith as for exaÌ„ple LaureÌ„tius â—alla Marcilius Patauinus Frauncis â—etrarke Hierom Sauanorola Abbote 〈◊〉 â—oachim Baptist of Mantua before al â—hese Bernard the Abbat haue many a time much coÌ„plained of it geauing yâ— world 〈◊〉 â—lso somtime to vnderstand that the Biâ—hop of Rome him selfe by your leaue 〈◊〉 verie Antichriste Fyue lyes I will note at the leaste 〈◊〉 this one sentence Confut. 207. First of al these whoÌ„ ye name no one 〈◊〉 did lead his lyfe in Rome but Laurence Valla. Secondly they were not well able to see the Popes secretes whiche lyued 〈◊〉 in the Citie with him familiarly Thirdly concerning your lye that 〈◊〉 no tyme they departed from the Catholike faith Laurentius Valla was 〈◊〉 fangled Marcilius was a plain heretike â–ª Abbate Ioachim vttered heresie which was condemned but submitting himselâ— to the Catholike Churche he escaped foâ— his owne person Fourthely of the faultes of Rome 〈◊〉 Bernard hath complained but neuer 〈◊〉 the Popes tyranny and barbarous prydeâ— Fifthely it was the speciall grace 〈◊〉 Luther and the blindnes or follie of thâ— foresaid persons to geue you to vndeâ—stand that the Pope should be very Anâ—tichrist For the making of which lye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wil neuer so much aske our leaue we haue no such Authoritie to geue it vnto â—ou and therefore I praie you quiet your selues and neuer trouble vs more hereafter with such requestes We Apolog. saieth Hosius wil bid away with 〈◊〉 same scriptures c. It behoueth not 〈◊〉 man to be expert in the law scripture 〈◊〉 to be taught of God It is but lost about that a man bestoweth vpon the scriptures For the scripture is a creature â— bare letter This is Hosius saieing This is not Hosius saying Conf. 21â— Nay of set purpose he reherseth it for an heresie to declare how the new Ghospellers of this 〈◊〉 haue proceeded still from naught to worse and are now come some of them to such a diuine spritishnes that they contemne the studie of the Scriptures as a carnall thing and vnprofitable and will not haue anie man vse the testimonie of them But God forbid saieth Hosius that we should euer so much as think these things Hosius de expr ver Dei which belong not to a ChristiaÌ„ man For we hold with S. Hilarius who iudged heresie to come from the vnderstanding not from the scripture Seeing therefore that Hosius hath so expresselie declared him selfe to 〈◊〉 from Zwenkefeldius heresie whichâ— woulde not haue the Scripture to be 〈◊〉 credite what impudencie is it so boldâ—â— lie to chardge him with it as thougâ— it were his opinion to haue the 〈◊〉 put away Yet this so greate impudencie 〈◊〉 howe it shall be maintained For allthough it be perceiued of the Authors 〈◊〉 the Apologie that Hosius wil sone 〈◊〉 against them and saie that they doe 〈◊〉 wronge yet rather than they will 〈◊〉 seeme to eate theyr woorde and to 〈◊〉 vnable to defende that Note the stomach whiche 〈◊〉 had once sayed in the firste edition 〈◊〉 the Apologie they increase theyr 〈◊〉 and shame in the second edition 〈◊〉 whereas in conscience they should haue cried Hosius mercie and 〈◊〉 confessed theyr mistaking of him which had bene a token of good natures and such as especially should be in the professours of an holy Ghospel yet in theyr seconde Edition and further deliberation vppon the mater they not only doe not reuoke theyr slaunder but make Argumentes to defende it And firste to that whiche Hosius mighte truelie saie vnto them that they doe hym wronge and that the woordes whiche they obiecte againste hym are not hys owne woordes but the woordes of the Heretike Zwenkefeldius they aunswere But howe then Apolog. In the second edition if Zwenkefeldius make Exclamations on the other syde and saye that the same verie woordes are not hys but Hosius owne wordes Confut. If he will be so shamelesse as to obiecte that vnto Hosius as Hosius owne for whiche Hosius expressely reproueth him Or if he wil be so folish as to professe that opinion whiche he wil put await from himself when he is chalenged of it he is a meete witnes for the Apologie But howe is it likely and probable that ZweÌ„kefeldius might so doe It foloweth For tel me Apolog. where hath Zwenkfeldius euer writen them What if so much be not tolde you Confut. will it folowe that because you knowe not where to finde them in Zwengelfeldius therefore they are not in him at all Or because it is not told you wher ZweÌ„kfeldius hath writeÌ„ theÌ„ therfore Hosius doth alow them For herein is the pointe whether
As doeth appeare by the chiefe Apostles of the new Ghospell Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martir Bale Barcâ—let Barlowe Scorie c. Which departed out of the Churche on theyr owne heade and perill and liued not well in the Churche whyles they were interteined in it And so although some faithlesse and wretched fellowes might be proued to haue sold theyr Masses in the Churche that conuinceth them to be naught and not that the Churche consenteth vnto it We verelye Apolog. because we knowe the shedding of Christe hys Bloud vppon the Crosse to be the onelie Sacrifice are well content with it alone and looke for none other And forasmuche as yt was to be offered but once we commauÌ„d it not to be renewed againe You woulde I perceaue haue the Catholikes compted exceading couetous and insatiable Conf. 123. as thoughe they shoulde thinke the shedding of Christe his Bloud vppon the Crosse to be vnsufficiente to saluation But yet howe thinke you Notwithstanding ye are so well content as ye saye with Christe his Passion alone doe ye not thinke it necessarie for you to obey the Churche to obey your Prince to absteine from lying from adultery from Simonie c If besides the passion of Christ you must also keepe the Commaundementes and doe as manie good workes as ye may then as you are content so are we And you are no wiser by this rekening than other poore folkes are But if Christ his Passion doth so content you that ye seeke not to suffer also with him after your degree in a certaine proportion then doth it plainlie appeare that you are quickly satisfied And in such sorte to be well content is for suche as neuer thincke to ascend after Christ and are verie vnlike vnto him Why hath he hys Legates as much to saie as moste suttle spyes lying in wayte in all Kinges Courtes Apolog. Councelles and priuie chambres Why doth he when he lyst sette Christian Princes one against an other And at his owne pleasure trouble the whole world with debate and discord First Con. 178 let it be proued that the Pope doth it and then afterwardes aske the cause why And coÌ„sider also whether it becommeth the Church of England that such an Apologie should goe furth in the name of it as meddleth with the legats whom other Princes of Christendome doe interteyne And which obiecteth to a person of much Authoritie at the least such an heygâ—nous and shamefull crime as that at his plesure he should trouble the whole world If the Pope were no more quiet and peaceable than ye make him had England all this while continued in schisme and heresie and not ben made a praye to some that would haue taken it What is he that coÌ„maundeth the Emperour to goe by him at his horse bridle Apolog. the Frenche King to hold his stirope Some Pope by lykelihode of your owne making Con. 185. For the Catholiks know of none such at al. Yea Pauluâ— Iouius when Charles the fifthe of worthie memorie would haue helde Pope Clements stirope he was not suffered so to doe the Popes modestie ouer coÌ„ming the Emperours deuotion Why doe they hyde Apolog. why doe they keepe vnder the Ghospell which Christ woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe We beleue Con. 222. it is not hyddeÌ„ that which is openlie readen in the Churche Catholikelie expounded in Vniuersities Ordinarelie readen in Religiouse houses And commonlie solde in Hebrue Greeke and Latine to all that will studie it This lye is dilated by the Authours of the Apologie Fo. 264. this also is emong the flatte lyes Why doe they not proue theyr Religion Apolog. by the examples of the Primitiue Churche and by the Fathers and Councels of old tymes Our bookes doe aunswer for vs Conf. 231. that this is a lye Why be they afrayd to take a paterne Apolog. of the Apostles and old Fathers We be neuer afraied Con. 20â— but when we come to such heretikes as wil not admit the old Fathers nor theyr interpretatioÌ„s vppon the Apostles then in deede we alleage not so thicke theyr Testimonies whose Authorities the loftie and prowde mindes doe easelie contemne Why dyd Iohn Apolog. 1. Clement a Countrie man of ours 2. but fewe yeares paste 3. in the presens of certaine honest men and of good credite 4. teare and 5. caste into the fyere certaine leaues of Theodorete the moste 6. Auncient Father and a 7. Greeke Bishoppe wherein he playnlie 8. and euidentlie taughte that the nature of Bread in the Communion was not chaynged abolyshed or brought to nothinge And thys dyd he of 9. purpose bycause he thought 10. there was no other copy thereof to be found Ye haue done well so particularlie to set furth this mater Con. 231. declaring by manie circumstances that Doctour Clement shoulde Teare and Caste into the fier certaine leaues of such an Author of such a mater before men of good credite and for suche a purpose and 〈◊〉 â–ª as you specifie And nowe as though the mater needed no further 〈…〉 aske why Iohn Clement a Counâ—rieman of yours dyd so But I will tel you firste 〈◊〉 he dyd not so For as him selfe hath 〈◊〉 me and other asking this verie quâ—stion of him that you appose vs withall he neuer had anie parte of that booke in Greeke or in Latine in written hande And therefore could not wel burne that which he neuer had Nowe if the honest men that you speke of did not only se him cast certeine leaues into the fier but did reade also the contentes of those leaues before they were cast into the fier and vnderstoode vpon what intent D. Clement dyd it c. name them that they maie be knowen for theyr honestie When they did of late put in print Apolog. the auncient Father Origenes worke vp on the Ghospel of Iohn why left they quite out the whoâ—e sixte chapiter wherein it is lykely yea rather of verie suerty that the 〈…〉 had writen many thinges conâ—â—rning the Sacrament of the holy Communion contrarie to these mens myndes We could not leaue that Chapiter out Con. 233. which was not founde in anie Copy But if you can bring anie such chapiter furth ye shal make it lykely aÌ„d ê“bable that we are to blame for not putting it in And if you can not you proue your selfe to be verie suspitiouse and slaunderouse which reproue the Catholikes for not putting that in which is not as farre as we or you doe hitherto know to be found in any place extant Yet you haue suche a grace as in speaking so also in reading without booke that you further saie it to be not onlie lykelie but rather of verie suertie that such and such things should be in that place of Origen which yet you neuer sawe in al your lyfe that you might be able to reporte anie thing of it Which of al the Fathers haue at anâ—e time called you
once saie the word both partes wil submitte theÌ„selues vnto it because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth His authoritie therefore being for so good cause so great with vs either ye can ê“ue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him or ye can not proue it If ye can not what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself so to belie him and what an iniurie â—s it to the Reader so to abuse him by the name of Christe But if ye can shewe it where Christ hath foretold that our Churche shoulde erre doe so then and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs without anie prouing of them at all But howe is it possible that ye should proue them Christ hath a Church For this first ye will not denie that Christ hath a Church otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine if he haue not her for whoÌ„ he toke flesh The Churc◠〈◊〉 visible aÌ„d shed his blud This church theÌ„ of Christ is it visible or no Visible it must nedes be because it coÌ„sisteth of meÌ„ â—nd meÌ„ are creatures coÌ„sisting not of pure and simple soules but of soules and bodies togeather And Christ saieth of it Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl Being then visible The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it or no Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nuÌ„ber weight and measure muste not let that to be without order which he estemeth most of al other thinges For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt wherewith one ministreth to an other hauiÌ„g in it distinction of offices and duties to rule to obey to preache to heare to minister to receaue This Order then The order in the Church must continue Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church or shal it continue to the worldes end It muste needes continue because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh The Apostle also most expresly telling vs that Christ hath geuen Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Pastoures and Teachers â—ph 4. to finish and perfite the holy to worke in the ministery to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it caÌ„ not be perfited vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules it foloweth that this Order which I speake of must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God which wil not be til al be borne that shall so meete togeather and that is at domes day and not before These grounds then so standing I say vnto you for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men which is kept in order and vnitie by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction I say therfore vnto you that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to coÌ„tinue in any form of religioÌ„ euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto As in exaÌ„ple before Luther brake out froÌ„ his cloister and Rule ther was not in al the world anyone cuÌ„pany of Luther aÌ„s ZuiÌ„gli aÌ„s Caluinists or any other sect that braggeth at this day of the light aÌ„d knouledge of the gospel Wel ther might be in corners some faithles meÌ„ and womeÌ„ that in hart were heretical like as at this present if harts were sene many shuld be fouÌ„d eueÌ„ in EnglaÌ„d it self to dout of th'iÌ„mortality of the soule aÌ„d th' IncarnatioÌ„ of Christ c but ther was no opeÌ„ coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of theÌ„ nor apê“ued form of ministratioÌ„ emoÌ„g theÌ„ nor any face or shew of a Church For yourselues do say that Martin Luther aÌ„d Hulderik ZuiÌ„glius wer the first that came to the knowledge aÌ„d preaching of the Gospel so that if they were first it foloweth that before they came ther was no congregatioÌ„ of ê“testaÌ„ts in al the world or if it were it was not visible or if it were visible it had no true preachers or if it had true preachers Luther aÌ„d Zuinglê° need not to be praised of you for most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ eueÌ„ sent of God to geue light to the world because there were in the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the sincere in the Lord as illumined preachers of the word as they But wher as the truth is as you say that Luther and ZuiÌ„glius were the first that cam to the knoulege aÌ„d prechiÌ„g of the Gospel which is none in dede and wher as it remaineth to this day not oÌ„ly in the bokes that are writeÌ„ but in the memories of meÌ„ that knew those daies that before Luther and ZuiÌ„glius made a tumult in ReligioÌ„ ther was not in al ChristeÌ„doÌ„ any other ê“fessioÌ„ of faith thaÌ„ was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik it foloweth that your church caÌ„ not possibly be the Church of Christ the coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of which your church caÌ„ so litle be ê‘ceiued that yourselues know it begaÌ„ to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir ZuiÌ„glius time In whiche Churche there was so little order that ye can name neither SuperintendeÌ„t nor minister nor preacher nor broâ—her of it that liued before the most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ Luther and Zuinglius and which Churche was so inuisible that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit vestiment or other thing vsed in it Yet we see this by experience that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather they wil not be longe without theyr preacher euerie one is so readie to be preacher and they can not be without some place and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place which is the cause that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church and had so continued from the beginning theÌ„ had they places to resort vnto and they vsed such order as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order But we can he are of no such thing ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then Add then now vnto this that Luthers Church began with Luther and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it And consider that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche
discontinuance or interruption as that it shoulde be saied after manie hundred yeares comming in betwene in which one forme of Religion was vsed now is Luther or Zuinglius sent of God to geaue lyght vnto the world Gather I saie these thinges together and ye shal perceiue that either Christ had no church huÌ„dred of yeres together and that yet he hath none or els that our Catholike Church is the one and only church of Christ. For alother Churches haue either discoÌ„tinued either they haue not bene sensiblie perceiued either they haue ben within memorie erected and so they lacke Succession visiblenes Antiquitie Of whiche three pointes the Church that Luther and Zuinglius went vnto when they departed from the Catholikes had not one But afterwardes when they became them selues builders of A new Church aÌ„d that vpon theyrown heades and Authoritie for they acknowledged no creature then liuing for theyr superiour in that mater theÌ„ in dede it was not long but they gote one of the forsaied three pointes For they kepte such a sore sturre against all Christendome that it was most euideÌ„t that they were a visible Congregation But as for succession and antiquitie they can neuer get it because they can neuer proue it for why they neuer had it Yet for Antiquitie they wil striue and crake as the Authours of the Apologie doe that they doe come as neere as they possiblye can to the Church of the Apostles and of the old Fathers But in the point of Succession they can not tell what to aunswer for them selues For how Let the heretiks shevv their succession thinke they is it possible that the Church of Christ should be without the lauful successioÌ„ of the Apostles Could his wisdom not for see it that for as much as he minded coÌ„tinually to cal in gheasts vnto his feast therefore it was necessary to prouide seruants one after another for that purpose Would his chartie suffer it that togeather with the Apostles deathes his coÌ„passion vpoÌ„ the poore soules of the world shuld die aÌ„d that ther shuld not be for euery age vnto the worlds end like officers for their authority as th' Apostles wer to dispeÌ„se his graces aÌ„d mercies Could not his power perfourme it that come who would none shoulde be hable to staie the succession of his Lieutenants and Vicars What then can the heretike nowe say why he hath not a succession A thing so necessary for the wisedome of God to prouide and so natural for his Charitie to geaue and so proper for his almightines to maintain Verely were it not that he is almightie it is impossible by naturall power and reason that the Bishop of Rome whom heretikes haue alwaies hated at whom the greatest Bishopes in the East Churche haue enuied with whoÌ„ Lordes aÌ„d Ladies of the world haue ben so much offended whom the Barbarous haue so ofte assaulted whom the Christians at home haue so trobled that he yet should continue still and alwaies haue a successour it passeth al cuÌ„passe of mans wisdom and prouisioÌ„ but that he that made him his Vicar in earth is God almightie in â—eauen and earth In some other thinges the heretikes maie so contend with the Catholikes that it will be hard for the indifferent man certainlie to knowe whom he maie folowe They wil alleage the same letter of the Scriptures as the Catholikes doe they wil vse the same couÌ„cels aÌ„d fathers They wil challenge Antiquitie and say that they haue descended from the Apostles like as Parking Warbecke saied he came of king Edward the fourths bloud and what so easie as to saie a worde if one will be desperate and die rather in field than vnsaie it but when they are brought to the mater of succession in which they lacke the verie bare names and much more the Actes and Monumentes of such as they should shewe to haue desceÌ„ded lineally and orderly from the Apostles doune vnto them then loe they are at a staie and haue not one wise worde left to them by which they might aunswer a question so principall and so reasonable And yet they crake stil that they are come to the Churche of the Apostles and of the old Catholike Bishops and Fathers whiche Churche saie they with exceding blindnes or impudencie we know hath hithervnto ben sound and perfite Con. 322. and as Tertullian termeth it a pure Virgine spotted as yet with no Idolatrie nor with any foule or shamefull faulte Note Gentle Reader that they speake of theyr knowledge and excepte theyr knowledge be so diuine and ineffable that neither we can conceaue it nor they well vtter it desire theÌ„ to be so good as to make vs also knowe it For if they knowe the Apostolike Churche to be hythervnto sounde perfite and pure lette them tell vs where it was in the yeare of our Lorde 1500. or 1400. or 1300. The Churche of Rome is knowen to haue stoode in those yeares but all the sorte of them holde it for A Principle that manie errours and faultes were founde then in it Ergo if by theyr saieing that Church had errours what other Church was there in those dayes whiche they knowe to haue bene sound perfite and pure They can reken none at all For al these Weast partes of Christendome folowed the Church of Rome and they theÌ„selues confesse that the Greeke Churche doeth erre Ergo if the Churche of Rome was not sounde and perfite in those foresaied yeares and if the Greeke Churche be notorious for the errours of it howe doe these Felowes knowe that the Apostolike Church hath hithervnto bene sound and perfite For what signifieth hithervnto but euen vnto our time And if the Apostolike Church hath ben found and perfite euen vnto our time there was suche a Churche vndoubtedlie in the yeares of our Lorde 1500. 1400. and 1300. and that Churche was not as they holde the Churche of Rome Ergo some other But there was no other that they knowe to haue ben sound perfite and pure Ergo they speake more then they know and ioyne theÌ„selues close to the Apostolike Church without any succession from the Apostles and crake of a pure aÌ„d perfite building without anie foundation Such is theyr miserable and blind braggyng How much more trulie should ye conclude that for as much as the Apostolike Churche not onely hath bene hytherto sound aÌ„d pure in doctrin but must also coÌ„tinue sound and pure vnto the world end and for as much as no Church hath coÌ„tinued so but only the church of Rome therfore he that maketh accompt of euerlasting life can not possibly attaine vnto it excepte he come to that Churche in which only the succession continueth by which it is easie to ascend vp euen to the chiefe of the Apostles For to S. Peter our Sauiour saieth Math. 1â— Thou art â—eter or a Rock and vpoÌ„ this Rocke I wil build â—y church aÌ„d the gates of hel shal not â—reuail against it â—uc 2â—â— Again