Aug. l. 18. de civ. Dei c. 20. Roma est altera Babylon prioris filia Babylon was the first Rome and Rome is as it were the second Babylon Apoc. 18. 7. Babylon the great is fallen is fallen and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foule spirit and a cage of every uncleane and hatefull bird Roma Ruens Romes Ruine Being A SVCCINCT ANSWER To A POPISH CHALLENGE Concerning The antiquity unity universality succession and perpetuall visibility of the true Church even in the most obscure times when it seemed to be totally eclipsed in the immediate ages before LUTHER By DANIEL FEATLEY D. D. MIC 7. 8. Rejoyce not against me O mine enemie when I fall I shall arise when I sit in darknesse the Lord shall be a light unto me Leo Seâ—m. in natal Petri Pauli Non â—inuitur persecutionibus ecclesia dei sed augetur magis Ager dominicus segete ditiore vestitur dum grana quae singula cadunt multiplicata nascuntur Theod. comment in epist ad Philippen {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} LONDON Printed by Thomas Purslow for Nicholas Bourne at the South entrance of the Royall Exchange 1644. PErlegi hunc polemicum tractatum cui titulus est Romes Ruine atque ut valde doctum nervosum dignum censeo qui prelo mandetur Iohannes Downame A Table of the speciall contents I. THe Popish Challenge II. The preface to the Reader wherin the main and principall question concerning the visibility of the Church is stated and determined according to scriptures III. The answer to the Challenge Paragraph I. Concerning the name catholike p. 1 Para. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian saith one true divine and infallible p. 3 III. That divine faith is confined to the written word of God and is unchangeable p. 5 IV. Touching the propagation of the christian Faith to all ages by pastors and teachers lawfully sent p. 8 V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true Church p. 7 VI That the true church was never simply invisible nor so obscure but that it had true professors known to the members therof though often invisible to the adversaries p. 12 VII That the Roman Church that is a Church holding the present Romish Trent-faith hath not bin alwayes visible p. 13 VIII That the Roman Church neither hath bin nor is at this day catholike viz. universall p. 16 IX That the Roman Church hath not had an uninterrupted succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles p. 17 X. That the Roman Church hath not the pretended mark of unity and that Papists differ among themselves in many substantiall points of faith particularly mentioned p. â—â— XI That the Roman Church is not truly an Apostolicall church much lesse the only Apostolicall church out of which there is no salvation p. 26 XII That amplitude and eminent visibility are no markes of the true Church and obiter of the large bounds of the greek church pa. 27 XIII Where the true Church was when the Roman fell from her first faith p. 30 XIV Where and who were the true professors of the reformed Religion in the immediate age before Luther p. 32 XV That Questions de fide cannot be determined by meer humane stories p. 37 XVI That all who make not open profession of faith in time of persecution are not to be condemned for hypocrites p. 39 XVII Of the first conversion of the english nation to the Christian faith p. 40 XVIII Of the faith of Gregory the great and that for substance it was the same that we professe at this day is proved by instance in 12 main points of difference between the reformed and the present Roman Church p. 43 XIX Of the faith of Constantine the great and that the church in his dayes maintained the same doctrine with us is proved by the testimonies of the doctors of the Church who flourished in that age p. 50 Indiculus authorum A. G. Abbot Abulensis Adrianus AEneas Sylvius Alfonsus a Castro Almaine Alvarez Ambrosius Med. Anastasius Andradius T. Aquinas Athanasius Augustinus B. Barclayus C. Baronius Basilius mag. Beda Bellarminus Benno Card. Berengarius Bertram Bilson Birbeck Bonaventura M. Bucerus C. Cajetanus Canus Capito Catharinus Chrysostomus I. Cocleus Constantinus Contarenus Curopalata Cyprianus Cyrillus Hieros D. Damasus Dicetus Dionysius Arâ—op Driedo E. Elfricus S. Ephrem Epiphanius Erasmus Eusebius F. Fabritius Ferus Field Fisherus Fox Fulgosus G R. Gallus Genebrardus Gerardus Gerson Gildas Glaber Rodolphus Gratianus Gregorius M. Gretserus Ies. H. M. Hart. Helvicus Hieronymus Hilarius P. Homerus Hugo de sanct. vict. L. Humphredus I. Huz I. Iacobus Christop. T. Iamesius Ignatius Illyricus Fl. Innocentiâ—s Ioachimus Ab. Ioachimus Ca. Ionas Aurel. Irenaus Invenalis L. Lactantius Lambertus Geasomb P. Lombardus Luitprandus Lucius Tudensis I. Lidius M. Macarius Aegy Mantuanus Marselius P. Martialis Martinus Luther Ph. Melancthon Minutius felix Metrophnes Crit. P. Molineus N. Nazianzenus G. Neâ—â—rionsis Nioephorus Nicetas Abbas O. G. Occaâ— Orthwinus Osiander P. Pacianus Parsonus Ies. Pellicanus Petrus de Alliacâ— Photius Al. Pighius Plichdorâ—ius M. Polonus Pontanus H. Pragensis S. Prosper Q. Quirâ—ga Card. R. Rainerius I. Raiâ—oldus Rhemist Roffenfis S. Salviaâ—â—s Scotus Dans Erigâ—â— Sigebertus Sigonius Sisselius Socrates hist. D. Seto Stella Suarez Sulpitius Severus T. R. Tapperus Tertullianus Theodoretus Theophilus Alex. C. Turrecremata V. Vasquez Vbertinus a Casaâ—s Vignierus Virgilius Vortleg Vsherus W. Wesselus Groning G. Whitakerus F. White Wiâ—â—lius Widdrinâ—â—nus Wimpina I. Wâ—lâ—ius THE CHALLENGE WE catholikes say that there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God nor attain to salvation this one true faith generally preached through the world was not to cease with the Apostles and their immediate hearers but was by Christs promise to continue unchanged to the worlds end For so 't is said Mat. ult. behold I am with you all dayes even to the consummation of the world and John 14. The holy Ghost whom my Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things This divine truth once established to the end it might continue was to be derived to posterity not by angels sent to teach particular persons nor by illuminated brethren of Amsterdam still pretending new light but by a continued succession of known visible pastours and bishops lawfully ordained and sent to preach it perpetually in despight of all new sectaries and novellers whatsoever Whence we say it followeth that not for six hundred years only as many protestants grant there was a true church free from spot of error but likewise in all ages following there ever was and must be such a church in the union wherof all sorts might be saved For to say as some protestants doe the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophesies and predictions of the old Testament it
most part taken in the latter sense as in the creed of Athanasius whosoever will be saved must hold the catholike faith that is the orthodox faith which he there setteth down for at that time when he wrote that creed of his was not catholike in the first sense that is generally and uâ—â—versally received if that be true which Vincentius writeth the pâ—…son of the Arrians did not infect only a portion of the church but 〈◊〉 a manner â—ainâ—ed the whole world insomuch that almost all the laâ—â—n bishops being surprised by fraud or by force had a mist cast before their eys In neither of these two senses of the word can either your church or your faith or your persons be termed catholike Not your church for Dr. Reynolds hath long ago demonstrated in his second Thesis thaâ—… present Roman church is neither the catholike church of Christ nor a sound member thereof not your faith for that as I said before so farre as it differs from ours is patcht up of many heresies not your persons for they are singular or individuall and therefore cannot be catholikes that is â—â—iversall Here you use to alledge for your selvs a passage out of Pacianus christian is my name and catholike is my sirname But what is this to you unlesse you could prove that Pacianus held your Trent faith when you prove that I will immediatly turn Roman catholike till you shew some affinity between your faith and his you cannot challenge his sirname catholike As for his meaning in this his elegant motto christian is my name and catholike is my sirname he alludeth evidently to the manner of the Romans and some other nations who used to give their children two names at least one common as Marcus or Cneius or Caius the other proper as Cicero or Crassus or Anthony or Pompey and the sense his words carry is this christian is a name which I have in common with all that in any sort beleeve the gospel and are neither Jews not Paynims but catholike is my proper name whereby I am distinguished from divers sorts of christians to wit all those who professe christianity in generall yet not purely but with mixture of some heresie or schismatically sever themselvs from the communion of the catholike that is the universall church and truly the name catholike in his days as also in the days of S. Austin when the hereticks were but a handfull and lurked but in corners here and there was a distinctive term for then the hereticks in regard of their paucitie could not with any colour pretend to the name catholike but afterwards when heresies became catholike that is spread over the whole face of the church and the orthodox christians were far fewer in number the title catholike ceased to be a note of distinction and the word orthodox was used in stead thereof to distinguish true beleevers from all miscreants hereticall or schismaticall PARAG. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian faith true divine and infallible Challenge That there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God or attain to salvation c. Answer When I read your preface and compared it with that which followeth I could not but think of Oretes pots sent for a present to Polycrates in which there was a little gold laid on the top and under it nothing but trash for after these two golden assertions of the unity and immutability of the true divine and infallible faith laid as it were in the top of your discourse there is nothing to be found under them but lead and trash as shall appear hereafter in the gaging it I grant there is one and but one true divine and infallible faith but you should have explicated how but one and in what sense Divine and infallible faith hath been always and is one for substance though not for circumstance all beleevers even from Adam were though not in name yet in truth christians Christ and his meritorious actions and passions were the object of their faith as well as ours but they beleeved in Christ to come we in Christ that is come we and they resemble the spies that carried the bunch of grapes on their shoulders the former who went before looked backward the latter who went behind looked forward on the grapes they looked forward with the eys of their faith on the incarnation passion resurrection and ascension of Christ to come we look backward on these as past they saw Christ in foregoing types we in succeeding sacraments Yea but it may be objected that many new articles of faith are daily declared and many new theologicall conclusions found out else how should knowledge encrease How then is the faith of the church always one For answer hereunto I will borrow Vincentius his decision what saith he is there no profiting in Christs school no growth in faith and the knowledge of salvation Yes very great but provided always that this progresse be a going forward in the same way to heaven not a turning out of the way an improvement of faith no change that is holding the same principles of faith we may and ought daily by the studies of scriptures deduce new conclusions but such as are vertually contained in those principles not such as are any way repugnant to them so long as we mutilate not our creed by dis-beleeving or mis-beleeving any article of it and whatsoever we offer farther to be beleeved we cleerly and evidently conclude from scriptures or other prime and fundamentall articles of christian religion the faith of the church is still one Secondly this faith is said to be divine in a three-fold regard 1. Of the object which is God 2. The efficient which is the spirit of God 3. The motive which is the word of God or the authoritie of the speaker which is divine and because God cannot deceive nor be deceived hence it followeth that the faith which is grounded upon his word is infallible and such is the faith of the reformed church of England one divine and infallible whereas on the contrary your romish faith is neither one nor divine nor infallible Not one for you differ one from another in many substantiall points of faith as is proved Paragraph the X. Nor divine for the last resolution of your faith is unto the church a company of men subject to error Nor is it infallible for it is partly grounded upon unwritten traditions which vary partly upon the decrees of Popes and councels which contradict one the other the generall synod held at Ariminum contradicted the first of Nice in the point of Christs deity the councell at Frankeford contradicted the second councell of Nice in the point of images the generall councell held at Lateran contradicted the generall councell at Basil in the point of supremacie and I could with a wet finger produce divers decrees of Popes out
reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
Constantinople is equally ranked with him the decree of the councell is that Constantinople should enjoy like priviledges to Rome and the patriarch thereof to be extolled or as the words are magnified etiam in ecclesiasticis even in ecclesiasticall matters Which words are most shamefully corrupted in the canon-law and etiam in ecclesiasticis is turned into non tamen in ecclesiasticis the councell saith even an ecclesiasticall matters your canon alledgeth it yet not in ecclesisticall matters Perhaps the compiler of your canon-law thought it a meritorious work to falsifie a record for the advantage of the see of Rome but to let that passe and nâ—t to cut you out too much work at once I affirm disprove it if you can that never any bishop of Rome obtained the title of universal bishop before Boniface the third his time who got it with much difficultie by the means of Phocas the murtherer of his master and mark it I pray you and glory in it if you please that popery properly so called and Mahumetanism were both bred in one age within a few years one of another PARAG. VIII Touching the second note universalitie CHALLENGE We affirm that the Roman church hath been always catholike viz. universall Answer If you had rub'd up your memory as it seems you have rub'd your forehead you would never let such a catholike falsitie touching the catholike universalitie of your Roman church to have fallen from your pen For it is well known and in part confessed by Alfonsus and others that antiquitie makes little if any mention of sundry particular points which at this day are held amongst you You are not able to produce any kingdom no nor province no nor village no nor hamlet no nor man of note for the space of diverse hundreds of years after Christ which agreed with you in all points of your Tridentine faith or subscribed to the twelve new articles annexed thereunto With what colour or shew of probabilitie can you affirm that the Roman church as you define it to be a company professing the present Roman faith under one visible heâ—d to wit the Pope hath bin always universall or spread over the whole world when it is known to all who know any thing of the church story especially since the division of the christian church into the eastern or Greek the western or Latin church that the eastern or Greek church in circuit as large is not larger than the western never agnized nor doth to this day either your Popes supremacie or your Trent creed and in the western church it self though popery prevail much and spread like a gangren very far especially after the one thousand years when satan was let loose yet was there not any main point of popery established in the western church it self without strong opposition and concestation Even at this day Gods holy name be blessed for it the protestarâ—s in England and Scotland France and Ireland Germany Poland Denmark Swethland the Netherlands and elsewhere if they countervail not in number the popish partie yet they come very neer and now what is become of your brag of universalitie let us now examin your succession PAR. IX Touching the third note succession CHALLENGE The Roman church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastours derived from the apostles still teaching c. Answer The third lame leg on which your faith resteth it self is the succession of Roman bishops and pastors which if it were strong and sound yet the patriarchs of Constantinople and Ierusalem and Antiochia and Alexandria do set as good a leg forth for it as your bishop of Rome They produce as uncontroulable a catalogue of bishops and pastours the one succeding the other in their sees as you in the see of Rome and some of them from the apostles themselvs But what if this leg of yours prove a false leg and will double under you to use your owne phrase let the day be yours as now the night of errour and ignorance is if by the same evidence which you bring for your succession we prove not many main defects and maims in it which so deface and confound it that it can be no note or mark of the true church as you make it First notes and marks of any thing ought to be very remarkable and visible and after a sort notorious else they are not notae but ignotae If then the succession of your Romish bishops remain but quessionable such succession questionlesse cannot be a note of the church and is it not questionable and very uncertain when you stick in the very beginning of your catalogue and your skilfullest ushers know not where to rank Clemens in the second or the fourth place When during two and twenty schisms at least in the papacy it was a meeting cast and even lay between the Popes and anti-popes whether were the true successours of Saint Peter When besides many flaws in your catalogue by vacancies for monâ—ths years there was a great chasma or hiatus for almost one hundred years during which time the Popes sate at Avinium left Rome When for one hundred and sixty years together you cannot name me one firm and allowable Pope or such a one as he ought to be your own Genebrard confesteth that fifty of them as I noted before in that time deserved to be termed rather apostaticall and disordered and irregular tâ—aâ— canonicall and apostolicall Baronius gives your succession yet a more terrible blow what was then the face of the Roman church how filthy when as most potent and base queans bare all the sway at Rome changed sees and gave bishopricks at their pleasure and which is most abhominable and not to be named intruded their paramours into Peters chair false bishops whose names are written in the catalogue of Popes only to note and design the times Give me the clew I pray you by which you wind your selâ—s out of this labryinth Eugenius was deposed as schismaticall by the councell of Basit and Amadeus was made Pope in his stead yet afterwards this Eugenius by the favour of princes and a strong hand recovered the Popedom and from him all Popes since reckon Was Eugenius a schismaticall and unlawfull Pope or not If not the generall councell of Basil could not judge of schism and whether shall we believe you or the generall councell of Basil If he were a schismaticall and an unlawfull Pope what shall we judge of all that succeeded him Hic labor ille domus inextricabilis error Besides this Eugenius how many other Popes have thrust into the chair by usurpation and corruption how many have cut it asunder by schism how many have rayed and defiled it with heresie and abhominable filthinesse When you so confidently affirm that the church of Rome hath had always a succession of true bishops and pastors I pray you tell us what you mean by true bishops and pastors If
the continuance of our church for we have Gods promise in the old and Christs in the new that the church professing entirely that faith grounded on Gods word shall continue to the end And the redeemer shall come to Sion as for me this is my covenant with them saith the Lord my words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever And this is the word of faith which we preach And behold I am with you unto the end of the world Wherefore since all in the end must be brought to this issue whether our church or yours hath kept safe the most precious depositum of the apostolike faith we wish your learned to encounter us principally in this point not but that we will be ready to answer you in all other points whatsoever but because it is to small purpose to contend meerly about the out-works and leave the main forts and castle untouched As for your challenging words If c. I return them upon your self because you speak of all points I say if you can name any that professed the present Romish doctrin in all points within 1000. yeers after Christ let them do it then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs and for the most points of greatest moment shew me any for 600. yeers and let the day be yours Hic rodus hic saltus as for us we are in no danger of your if c. for we say it is needlesse to name any such who in all points taught our doctrin it is sufficient to produce some eminent persons in all ages who endeavoured to stop the inundation of your Romish errours and superstitions as it continually brake into the church especially if they held no substantiall doctrin of faith contrary to that which we now beleeve and teach besides these eminent persons and standard-bearers of the Gospel we doubt not but there were many thousands others both in your Romish church and else-where who never bowed the knee to Bâ—â—l nor received any â—â—rk of the beast At this last answer of some of our men you â—ibble saying PAR. XVI Of making open profession of faith in time of persecution CHALLENGE Rediculous it is to answer hereunto as some do that there were true beleeving protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such He that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Answer Bellarmin upon the by acknowledgeth that the Hussites and Waldenses continued till Luthers time who as appeareth by the rubricks of your own stories signed the faith we now professe not only with ink but with bloud which hath proved so fruitfull seed of the church that if the harvest of the next century be answerable to the last you will be constrained to blot catholike out of the title of your church and leave only Roman Besides many noble standard-bearers of the protestant religion who bad defiance to the whore of Babylon we say and disprove it if you can that there were many thousands who refused her cup of abhominations and in private detested her fornications howsoever they made no open profession of the faith neither will it hence follow that they were hypocrites this is too hard and uncharitable a censure Nicodemus was no hypocrite though he came to Jesus but by night and as it were by stealth Nor Ioseph of Arimathea though he made no open shew of his love to Christ till after his death much lesse were the Disciples hypocrites who according to Christs commandement fled from citie to citie and sought by all means to keep oâ—t of the eye and walk of their persecutors what publike or open profession of the christian faith made those saints S. Paul and S. Helary speak of who lived and dyed in deserts and hid themselvs in caves and dens of the earth It is the judgement of some of your divines that in the dreadfull and dismall persecution of antichrist the Pope himself shall professe his faith in secret If to make no open profession of faith is to be a luke-warm hypocrite what hypocrites shall the Romish priests be who shall not dare openly to celebrate masse in the great persecution of antichrist toward the end of the world as your Rhemists and Tapperus imply You your self and those of your religion especially priests and Jesuits make no open profession of your faith here in England yet you would not be thought to be hypocrites Be not too rash in your censures lest you slander your own mothers children Those God threatneth to spew out of his mouth who are neither hot nor cold that is those who have no zeal of Gods truth burning in their hearts those deny Christ before men who being called to make a goodprofession as Christ did before Pontius Pilate either directly or indirectly deny the faith as your Jesuited equivocators do renounce their priesthood calling such as deny Christ in this sort we deny them protesting against such protestants who are nothing lesse then what they are named PAR. XVII Of the first conversion of Britains and English to the faith CHALLENGE Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion unto which we Englishmen were first converted by Austin a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more than a 1000. yeers since Answer The Philosophers contend not more about the head and springs of Nilus than our English antiquaries about the source or rather the golden conduit which first conveyed the water of life into this Island some derive this {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} from Simon Zelotes some from S. Paul others from Ioseph of Arimathea and some few from King Lucius whoÌ„Beda calleth the founder of the faith among the Britains all fetch it from a higher more noble pipe then you You are the first whom ever I read to affirm that we Englishmen were first converted to the christian faith by monk Austin who when he came first into this Iland found among the Britains an arch-bishop and 7. bishops and 2000. monks in Bangor and what a world of christian people may we think besides Even in Kent it self where he first and most laboured in Gods vineyard he found a christian church bearing the name of S. Martin built to his hand and a way made for him even to the court by Lethardus chaplain to Queen Berta or Aldiberga Greg. himself Austins master doth us this right he acknowdlgeth it thirsted after the water of life before he thought of sending Austin and Melitus to quench this thirst whence was
this thirst but from some knowledge and fore-tast of this heavenly liquor Nemo currit ad gratiam nisi per gratiam no man followeth after grace but by the power of grace Saint Chrysostom some hundreths of yeers before Austin the monk receiv'd his commission from Gregory the great speaketh of the efficacie of the word preached the power of the christian faith in this Island And Sulpitius Severus reporteth that in the councell of Ariminum assembled An. Dom. 359. three Britain bishops were present and before this councell Athanasius makes mention of certain Britain bishops who subscribed to the councell of Sardiâ—a An. Dom. 347. And before this councell King Lucius wrote to Eleuther bishop of Rome to assist him in establishing the christian faith in his dominions which work God so blessed in his hands that Dicetus and Reade affirm that in the place of 28. heathenish priests called â—lamines and archiflamines there were substituted in his time so many bishops archbishops To go up higher yet and to come even within sight of the apostles Theodorâ—â— affirmeth that S. Paul after his first imprisonment at Rome preached the Gospel among the Britains and it is not unlikely that then he converted Pudens and Claudia his wife our countrey-woman not so much enobled by the praise of Martial Claudia câ—ruleis cum sit Ruffina Britannis Edita cur Latiâ— pectora plobis habet as by the mention of her in the sacred scriptures Eubulin saluteth thee and Pudens and Claudia Some yet ascend higher and from Gildas collect that England received the faith of Christ about the death of Tiberius What other construction can you make of these his words interea glaciali frigore rigenti Insulae velut longissime terrarum secessu soli visibili non proximae vetus ille non de firmamento solum temporali sed de summa etiam coelorum arce tempora cuncta excedente universo orbe praefulgidum sui coruscum oftendens tempore ut seimus Tyberii Caesaris summo c. By this account it should seem that Britain received the christian faith before Rome which as I will not aveâ—â— so I dare confidently affirm on the other side that Britain had a christian king before Rome had a christian Emperour residing in it neither do we ow so much to Roâ—â— for Austin the monk as Rome oweth to our nation for Constantinâ— the Emperour Neither can you blanch this your errour by restraining the name of English when you say we Englishmen were c. to those Anglo-Saxones who entred this land about or a little before Austin the monks arrivall for who taketh the word Angli or Englishmen now in that restrained sense How know you that we Englishmen now living are descended from those Anglo-Saxones rather then from the Britains or Danâ—â— or Norâ—ans who all successively inhabited this land And what if these Angli or Anglo-Saxones in Beda's time distinguished from the Picts then also inhabiting here were not first converted to the christian faith by Austin the monk I am sure Bede affirmeth that the Eastern Angli or English were firâ—â— gained to Christ by Fâ—lix the Northern by Paulinus and the middle-landers by 〈◊〉 find me ouâ— if you can a fourth sort of English first converted by Austin the monk To coâ—clude if it b◠〈◊〉 which you affirm that there is but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ and it hath been proved that the christian faith was professed in this Iland many hundreths of yeers before Austin the monk his time it followeth that we Englishmen were â—â—t first converted by Austin to that faith and religion of which you speak without which no man can be saved but of Austin and S. Gregory more hereafter PAR. XVIII Of the faith of Gregory and Austin the monk CHALLENGE Or if c. a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven and therefore must needs be true and never noted to differ from the common received faith of Christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he held communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church we say holding still the same tenets it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change And therefore if 〈◊〉 angell should some from heaven to 〈◊〉 us any other 〈◊〉 thâ—â— we first received we are not to hear him the good seed being ever first sowed and the Galatians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul for not constantly retaining the first plâ—â—ted faith Answer If by S. Gregoâ—ies care and Austin the monks pains the wells of salvation which long before that time had been digged in these countries but in divers places were â—…ed up by barbarous Payâ—â—ms sworn 〈◊〉 to the crosse of Christ were any whit opened and the water cleanâ—â—â— from 〈◊〉 â—â—nish filth and superstition we blesse God and 〈◊〉 the instruments for it The miracle you speak of if any were wrought it was to confirm the common christian faith not any Râ—mish additions thereunto or superstitiâ—ns For the monk himself he stands or falls to his own master The water as S. Aâ—â—stin noteth which passeth through a leaden 〈◊〉 into a garden waters the garden and makes it fruitfull yet it produceth 〈◊〉 such good effect upon the pipe even so oft-times it falls out that the instruments of much sanctifying grace to others retain not the like measure in themselvs Somewhat it was that the British monks could not perswade themselvs that this Austin was as you say 〈◊〉 â—an 〈◊〉 from Godâ— his insolent and irrespective carriage towards them argued in their judgement that he could be no scholler of Christ the great master of humilitie And for S. Gregory himself who sent him though he were a great light and ornament of that age in which he lived yet the Latin proverb was verified even in him omnibus Punicis malis putriduÌ„ granuÌ„ inesse No pomgranat so sweet and sound in which a curious eye may not find one rotten grain Some rotten grains your own criticks have observed in him but not neer the coat there he is sound In the substantiall points of faith now in controversie between us which he had occasion to touch upon he is truely orthodox and clearly ours I will instance in many severall points and all of them of importance 1. Then for the title of oecumenicall bishop and supream head over all bishops he declaimeth against it as prophane sacrilegious perverse proud insolent anti-christian and Luciferian contrary to the Gospel contrary to the canons and what not And very ridiculous is the answer of cardinall Bellarmine hereunto in his second book de Rom. Pont. cap. 31. That universall bishop may be taken two ways either as it signifietha power and
which are contained in the creed only they speak evill of the Roman church and clergy â—o this popish inquiâ—â—tor I will add another Romish nomenclator namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis who summeth up all his wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all hereticks and sectaries as he termeth them indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrin and practises of the Roman church and of these he gives us this pedegree the Lionists begat the Waldenses the Waldenses the Dulcinists the Dulcinists the Wickliffists the Wickliffistâ— the Hussites the Hussites the Lutherans You say these were all bnethren in iniquitie and joyned hands against the church of Roâ—e but yet they agreed not among themselvs not held the same doctrin which the protestants do at this day These are your shifts but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges for first for the doctrin of the Lionists and Waldenses â—e delivereth it as followeth That the church of Rome is spirituall Babylon and a harlot that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ but only consecrated bread which by a figure is said to be Christs body as it is said of the rock that it was Christ that the saints understand nothing of humane affairs upon earth that God alone is to be called upon there is no purgatory no veniall sins the benediction of salt ashes holy water c. hath no profit in it indulgences pardons and jubilees are of â—o worth the images of saints are not to be kept in churches nor to be worshipped exorcisms are vain and unprofitable Whereunto Rainerius addeth the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the masse they say that the offering which is made in the masse by the priest is nothing nor doth any way profit they dislike canonicall hours they say that the church did erre in forbidding priests marriages they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extream unction they condemn latin prayers and say they doe the people no good they beleeve not the legends of saints they esteem the holy crosse no other then simple and bare wood they affirm that prayers for the dead do not at all profit the souls of the departed and lastly that the doctrin of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation If any desire to read more concerning the doctrin of the Lionists Albigenses and Waldenses and their agreement with the present reformed churches in every point of moment I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary in the year of our lord 1508. extant in Orthwinâ—s Grâ—tius and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis Plichdorâ—ius and others against the Waldenses set forth by Iames Gretzer at Ingolstad An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrin from these Waldenses or Lionists the same Wimpina clearly testifieth Wickliffe faith he suckt heresies which he endeavoured to bring into England from the Waldenses and Iohn of Lion ring-leaders among hereticks And in the same book p. 21. he saith That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord 1306. was tainted with the errours of the Waldersâ—s and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulciâ—â—sts even to this day And in the prologue of his fourth book he casts up the totall sum in this manner out of this recapitulation of heâ—esies â—f thou keepest it well in thy mind thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia out of Bohemia into Saxony that is â—o let passe those things which are more ancient how they made a progresse from Oxford to Prague from Prague to Wittenberg so that Wickliffe Hâ—ss and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand whence it appears that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wickâ—â—ffists and Hussites This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist and a witnesse beyond exception against them is worth gold and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites a pretions stone well known yet taken out of the head of a toad for no better is this Wimpina full himself of the poyson of popery and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches PARAG. XV Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records CHALLENGE If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points let them do it and then if we doe not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out a true catholike and visible church Answer To answer you in the doctrinall point though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands neither should your faith gain any thing by it nor ours lose for the main and leading question between us is which church yours or ours holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly Deum non potest habere patrem qui ecclesiaÌ„ non habet matrem he cannot have God for his father who hath not the church for his mother these are quaestiones de fide in a different degree now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories as Ballarmin rightly deduceth for humane stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui falsum subesse potest that is make or beget an humane faith or rather credulity subject to errour not a divine and infallible beleef that must be built upon surer ground Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie and as universally spread as the Arrian or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian this would not win you the day did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church yet such a proof being meet humane would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon on the contrary if we can prove evidently by the written word of God that our faith not yours is that precious faith once given to the saints and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times we need not alledge any stories or records for