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A10170 The other parte of Christian questions and answeares which is concerning the sacraments, writte[n] by Theodore Beza Vezelian: to which is added a large table of the same questions. Translated out of Latine into Englishe by Iohn Field.; Quaestionum et responsionum Christianarum libellus. Pars altera. English Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Fielde, John, d. 1588. 1580 (1580) STC 2045; ESTC S109027 101,745 336

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signe and the thing signified or as Irenaeus speaketh of an earthly and heauenly thing But nowe neyther can that that is signified be spoken of the signe nor the signe of the thing signified but by the figure of Metonymie and therefore the propositions of the first kinde are declared by the verbe signifieth vnderstand of the sacramental signification to which also the giuing or ministration is alwayes adioyned but the latter by the Verbe Passiue as this breade is my bodye that is This breade sacramentally signifieth my bodie my bodie is this breade that is my bodie sacramentally is signified by this bread Now that this is the essentiall fourme of all sacramēts it appeareth by the verie name of sacramentes as witnesseth Augustine in these woordes in his 5. Epistle It were ouerlong saith hee to dispute of the varietie of signes which when they belong to holy thinges are called sacraments It appeareth also by this that that is common to all sacraments As in the tree of life in that it is a sacrament there is considered the outward thing and the signe the visible plant the spiritual heauenly thing Iesus Christ life In the tree of the knowledge both of good and euell a naturall plant also and the experience of good and euill in Circumcision the cutting off the foreskinne and the taking away of sinne the imputation of righteousnes and regeneration in the passeouer the Lambe and Christ in the rock of the desert the rocke and Christ pouring out bloode in the Baptisme of the cloude the cloudes and the sea and the blood of Christ in Manna breade giuen by miracle and the flesh of Christ In the Sabboth the seauenth day with ceasing from woorke and the mortification of the flesh and euerlasting life In the Sacrifices the offering slayne and the oblation of Christ made by himselfe in the Sanctuarie the entrance intoo into the Temple and heauen in the Tabernacle the woorke made with hand and the bodie of Christ in the Cherub in the Images ouer the Arke and the Angelles in the propitiatory or mercie seate the gilded couering and Iesus Christ So in the appearing of the doue the doue and the holy Ghost in baptisme water with washing and the blood of Christ washing vs in the fierie tongues the naturall fire and the holy Ghost Finally euen so in the Supper of the Lorde breade and wine the signes and the body and bloode our Lorde the thinges Sacramentally signified Question But manie of these are rather types then Sacramentes Answeare Admitte it be so yet this notwithstanding is the fourme of all symbolicall speeches concerning God Therefore in the verie writings of the Apostles they are called Signes Seales Types Figures parables shapes resemblances And of the Fathers also besides that they are called figures they are called mysteries types significations similitudes darke speeches and mysticall Symbolles and by suche like names Question What doest thou therefore conclude of all these Answeare That neyther the thing signified can be sayde of the signe nor the signe of the thing signified otherwyse then by translation and that that is so vsuall in the scriptures as that they neuer in a maner speake otherwise 232. Question But the Supper of the Lorde hath a certaine proper and speciall fourme which maketh that the same is not too bee thought of that whiche is to bee thought of the other Sacraments Answeare Albeit that this specially belong vnto those confutations which I woulde differ to their proper place notwithstanding that the force of the former argument may appeare more clearely go too let vs speake somewhat also nowe cōcerning this matter Indeede I graūt that the Supper of the Lorde hath his peculiar fourme whereby it differeth from the rest aswell olde as newe Sacramentes But to what ende is this For these fourmes which are called discerning fourmes because they doe discerne the specials of the same generall they doe not take away the constituting in which of necessitie all the specialls must be constituted that they may bee referred to the common general So for example sake a liuing creature is the common essential fourme and substance of all fourmes perteyning to that gender Now reason is the fourme whereby man is sundred from all other kindes of liuing creatures Nowe wilt thou say that this same speciall fourme doth bring to passe that that same generall to wit liuing creature should not be layde altogether by the same reason of man and of other liuing creatures And I pray thee how if that which is called differentia or proprium for nowe I doe not distinguish betwixt these should altogether take away the same attribution of gender should the distinction consist of gender and difference Therfore that same speciall difference of the lords Supper whatsoeuer it be can not bring to passe that that same common reason which maketh a Sacrament altogether by the same meane should lesse be spoken of the Lords Supper then of other Sacramentes Nowe that same common reason as we haue shewed is that the outwarde signe should signifie another thing sacramentally Nowe nothing is a signe of it selfe forasmuch as a signe is in the kynde of those thinges which are conferred with another therfore that same remaineth common without exception to all Sacraments that the thing signified is not the signe because these two must bee in very deede and therefore the thing signified can not be sayde of the signe but transitiuely But furthermore here I will demaund of thee what manner of difference thou makest this to be Question One in the Subiect an other in the attribute the third in the very meanes of the attribution Answeare And what in the Subiect Question Because the Elements of the Supper of the Lorde are diuers from the Element of Baptisme Answere Be it so But what in the Attribute Question Because the bodie and blood of our Lord are the signified thinges of the Supper of the Lord. Answeare Thou art deceyued For in Baptisme also the blood of the Lorde is the thing signified But what in the attribution Question Because onely the Elements of the Lordes Supper are sayde in the words of the institution to be the very body and the very blood of our Lord. Answeare And what wylt thou conclude thereof Question Forsooth that in Baptisme the very blood of Christ is not present and giuē but onely the fruit of the blood shead but that in the Supper the body it self and the blood it selfe is present and offered to the mouth it selfe Answeare Whether these thinges are truely sayde or no we will see in theyr place But I pray thee doest thou not marke that thou playest the Sophister Question Why so Answeare Because thou chaungest the questions For wee did not demaund whether the matter of the Lordes Supper and of other Sacramentes were one and the same but whether in another kynde of attribution that same matter of the Lordes Supper whether it bee onely the fruite or it be Christ himselfe