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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A55033	Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes: or The whole controversie about subjects taking up armes Wherein besides other pamphlets, an answer is punctually directed to Dr. Fernes booke, entituled, Resolving of conscience, &c. The scriptures alleadged are fully satisfied. The rationall discourses are weighed in the ballance of right reason. Matters of fact concerning the present differences, are examined. Published by divers reverend and learned divines. It is this fourteenth day of Aprill, 1643. ordered by the Committee of the House of Commons in Parliament concerning printing, that this booke, entituled Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes, be printed by Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith. John White.	Palmer, Herbert, 1601-1647.; England and Wales. Parliament. House of Commons.	1643 (1643)	Wing P244; ESTC R206836	105,277	84

and then came in that manner to the House of Commons to demand those five And whereas the Doctor saith the King is bound by Oath to maintaine the Government and Revenue as by Law they are establish't REPL. 1. He discovers a secret to us which we understood not before All men stood amazed at the late Oath to this effect for the government and among other Arguments against it not a few considerable men of the Ministry and Gentry before the Parliament lookt at it as an injury to the King and opposite to our Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacie and so the Parliament did in effect vote it because it urged men to sweare never to consent to alter the Government which yet the King and State might possibly judge fit to be altered But we never thought that the King was supposed bound by his Oath to it already and much lesse that all Kings in succession would be bound as now the Doctor teaches us by their Oathes to maintaine it as it is by Law establisht This it seems they presumed upon and so thought to have made all sure by swearing all the Ministery and Universities and Masters of Arts and Schoolemasters and Physitians who would have had influence enough into the whole Kingdome within awhile But God laught at this Project turned it upon the Head of the Projectours and all the Party as appeares this Day And so I am perswaded He will doe all their Present endeavours of Warre to recover themselves 2. But in good earnest doth the Doctor or any else thinke the King bound by Oath to maintain Bishops still in England though he hath consented to take them away in Scotland to prevent War even though he hazard the ruine of the Kingdome by a Civill Warre and notwithstanding any inconveniences represented to him by the complaints of his People and the wisedome of his Parliament and his owne too Or doth his Oath bind him to any more then to maintaine them so long as they are establisht by Law as he sweares to maintaine all his other Subjects in their Rights and yet an Act of Parliament may alter many things in mens Rights Are not all Rights of Church and State which are not properly jure divino compromitted to the Parliament the three Estates King Lords Commons every time they meet And may they not alter and change this or that so farre as it is humane and establisht but by the Lawes of the Land The Kings Oath then binds not him and his Parliament from taking away Bishops if they judge them not jure divino and their continuance to be prejudiciall to the State and Church and so of Revenues the same may be said 3. And if the Dr. will not admit this Answere but still contend the King did sweare to maintaine them at his Coronation as they were then by Law established Is not the King beholding to him for charging him with Perjury as in effect hee doth since it is evident that by taking away the high Commission Court and their power in their Courts of imposing Oathes and Penalties and after that their Votes in Parl. hee hath not maintain'd them as they were by Law establisht when he tooke the Oath How the Doctor will answer this I know not sure I am if any Minister having taken the Oath never to consent to alter the Government as it now stands establisht had offered to petition such a taking away of their governing power he should quickly have beene accursed as a perjured person and accordingly so dealt with It remaines then that the King onely swore to maintaine them according to Law while they should stand by Law and not to bind himselfe from any Law-making though to take them away in case it should appeare to be for the good of Church and State And if this be not made good that their taking away will be so let us all fight for them But if it be woe to those men that hazard the King and two of his Kingdomes England and Ireland once more as before they would two yeares one after another have hazarded England and Scotland to maintaine Episcopall greatnesse and Authority 4. What degree of Reformation or any thing like to the Primitive Bishops did they ever offer to be reduced unto which might have contented Parliament and People both if ever propounded in earnest to have asked no more Or what cure for any effectuall Reformation have any of them or their Party ever shewed since the Parliament met to have rendred it any way hopefull that they would bee good instruments hereafter 5. If therfore after all warnings they will needs put the King still on as it appeares even by the Doctors words to fight for their maintenance Let them remember Mr. Brightmans Propheticall Interpretation of the spewing out of the Laodicean Angell And though a vomiting somtimes makes a mans heart sick and ready to dye yet where he hath strength of Nature it comes up at last and proves happy cure Which in this case if it be Christs act as it much seemes to be will not faile to bee fulfilled to our comfort at last how weake soever it bring us first I conclude this then that as Physick is upon the defensive so much more the endeavour to cast up the humour which unprovoked or but a little stirred endangers the Bodies health by Inflamations the like So the late voting down the B●s was meerly defensive and the War so much as it is to maintaine them themselves are and ever were upon the offensive and offenders in and the Parliament not at all Now for the managing of the resistance the Doctor offers to examine whether it hath beene so void of Hostility as that defensive way they pretend to should bee Let us examine it with him Here he contends 1. that the Defendant should be of answerable demeanour to David defending himselfe against Saul REP. But he may be pleased to consider that as all that handle the difference betweene an offensive War and a defensive do rationally maintain that he that is outragiously injuried as David in his Embassadors 2 Sam. ●0 Or dangerously threatned is but on the defensive though he be actually ●n Armes first through diligence and some advantages perhaps so a man keeps himselfe within the bounds of a defence though he actually offend him that does or that would assault him and even though he begin first So David did in the former case invading the Ammonites Country and yet he was properly defensive So a man on the high way if a Robber should assault him if he could prevent his blow and strike first it were but in his owne defence but much more to strike againe and kill if he cannot otherwise defend himselfe which yet is the highest degree of offence betweene party and party Ob. But David still withdrew and having taken the Kings speare and cruse he restored them without demand Rep. True but I have formerly given the reason why he ever

not to foresee that their very flying to Armes was and would be a great suffering and might prove if God should defeat them the meanes of extreame suffering A people so taught so enured to Passive obedience and no way enured to Warre could not be supposed willing or forward to engage themselves their purses or much lesse their Persons against the Name of their King and each day since the first Necessity hath continually sounded this out so that they had no reason to be forward to fly to Armes 3. By what I said on the former Section and added with the Petition by the E. of Holland even now mentioned It appeares they did not fly to Armes but fly from it as far as they could and durst 3. Wheras the Dr. often in this Section in the beginning middle and end insists mainly upon the breach of Charity in suspecting the King upon Remote feare and meere Jealousies causelesse Jealousies c. Repl. This may sufficiently be satisfied both in the behalfe of the Parliament and then of the People that adhere to them joyntly and singly For the Parliament and people both joyntly This may justly be said 1. The Dr. mistakes it is not simply a Jealousie of the King but rather of the Kings Councellors and Followers who find so much favour with him as they and others did before the Parliament against the Scots and us both and Ireland too witnesse all their heavy complaints against the Great Favourite Strafford that they are able to put him from time to time upon these Actions which his goodnesse of it selfe rightly informed and councelled would abhorre and hath so often declared against and yet Actions againe have discredited those declarations as the Memory of those that have been awake cannot forget both Referring to Religion and Liberties and the Parliament Remonstrances do amply set out besids other Books If therfore Security be once obtained against such persons I am perswaded the King will be no more suspected and in the meane time it must be a strange Charity that can chuse but suspect them 2. Where the danger is of much importance both for Greatnesse of Mischiefe and Inevitablenesse according to Man if not timely prevented Charity to ourselves and others will not onely allow but commend and even command to suspect and accordingly prevent such dangers by suspecting Persons and Actions which in lesser matters they would and might and should venture to trust Fire neere straw or Gunpowder is to be suspected more then neere hard wood Hedge-breakers and breakers of Houses are not equally to be suspected Religion Laws and Liberties are precious things and may be sooner lost then recovered And his Charity hath drunk of the water of Lethe that forgets these were lately attempted and endangered The Kings own Declarations acknowledge Laws and Liberties have been broken And how since the E. of Straffo●ds death all the old Projectors are become Converts is too hard a morsell for Charity to swallow when it must hazard such deare things to many of the same Persons againe Specially seeing still what they have done since the first sitting of the Parliam toward their old Projects as hath been partly noted already and somewhat more must be said by and by Next for the Parliament alone They are the great Councell of the Kingdome the publique Watch-men the Highest Court of Judicature it concerns them therfore to exercise their Charity for the safety of those that have trusted them Charity towards Attempters against a City is none of the Vertues of a Watchman nor toward Attempters of dangerous Treasons against a King and Kingdome the Vertue of a Judge Were they onely to loose their own Liberties or Lives their Charity might venture much further then now it may when they must Answer for Religion Laws and Liberties and so Lives and Consciences of a whole Kingdome of 2 Kingdomes England and Ireland as formerly of England and Scotland if not rather then and still of all 3. in a degree Who would not Curse their Charity detest their Folly if by their Credulity all this should be betrayed and ruined If Rhetorick needed in this cause no Subject could deserve it better then to cry down such a pernitious Charity as this would prove if they should be deceived with credulity And then for the People alone have they not a charity to exercise toward the Parliament as well as toward the Kings Followers whom have they trusted to be publike Watchmen the one or the other Whom hath the law trusted to be the great Councell and chief Judges the one or the other Who hath pleaded for their Liberties the one or the other 12. Subsidies were demanded with intent thereby to engage us in a bloody War against Scotland in the Parliament of Aprill 1640. Onely for taking away of Ship-money But this Parliament hath proved it so illegall and other things more that it was taken away without any cost at all by way of Exchange and many other happy Lawes hath the ●arliament passed and obtained for us But what one thing did the Kings former Counsellors move him to offer to his people by way of prevention for State or Religion in a whole yeer together To whom then must the People exercise their charity Must they condemn their watchmen as scaring them needlessely with Old Enemies discredit the law that saith No dishonourable thing ought to be thought of such a great Councell such a high Judicature And that when they more then ever any Parliament before give account to all men of all their Actions and the grounds of them Well shall that People deserve a ruine that believe Old Wolves rather then their faithfull Dogs then their Councell of Shepheards That shall thinke themselves bound to be charitable to those that have attempted their ruine and uncharitable to those that under God have hitherto saved them In a word let those that love Religion and Laws and Liberties compare the best actions on the one side with the best on the other and the worst on the one side with the worst on the other and then let charity judge if it dare or can the Parliament Fooles or Traytors to GOD and the KING and the STATE and the Kings followers the only wise men that have discovered their cunning Treachery and the only faithfull men to Religion his Majesty and Kingdome Take in then the Declarations and Protestations on the one side and on the other and remember is is not a single charity whether I shall suspect the King but first mixt whether I shall or may suspect the Kings followers who can doe any thing with him so farre as that they may doe contrary to what he saith and then a distinguishing charity whether I shall suspect them who were once most of them apparently Delinquents against Religion and the Laws Or the Publike Watchmen and the great Councell an Judicature of the Kingdom who have done so much and with such diligence to save and restore

SCRIPTURE AND REASON PLEADED FOR DEFENSIVE ARMES OR The whole Controversie about SUBjECTS taking up ARMES WHEREIN Besides other Pamphlets an Answer is punctually directed to Dr. Fernes Booke entituled Resolving of Conscience c. The Scriptures alleadged are fully satisfied The rationall Discourses are weighed in the ballance of right reason Matters of fact concerning the present differences are examined Published by divers Reverend and Learned Divines IT is this fourteenth day of Aprill 1643. ordered by the Committee of the House of COMMONS in Parliament concerning Printing That this Booke entituled Scripture and Reason pleaded for Defensive Armes be Printed by Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith JOHN WHITE LONDON Printed for Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith at the Signe of the three Golden Lions neare the Royall-Exchange M.DC.XLIII To the READER T Is a bitter Controversie that our poore sinfull Nation is fallen upon wherein not onely Armes are ingaged against Arms but Bookes written against Bookes and Conscience pretended against Conscience In this perplexed condition What shall the people doe What shall they resolve They expect to receive Councell from Divines who though it be a mixt Argument are most likely to settle them And they have great reason to doe it for the truth is The world takes sufficient notice that the Cause as it now stands hath many Divines strongly ingaged unto it on either side and that their Resolutions have had a great Influence upon it and upon the people We know upon whom Doctor Ferne layes the burthen when he saith Many in the simplicity of their hearts have been wrought upon by such as misled them But we pleade in the words of the great Apostle That our rejoycing is this that in simplicity and godly sincerity not with fleshly wisdome but by the grace of God we have had our conversation to the world and more abundantly towards our Congregations To whom wee appeale and to our Sermons preached among them whether wee have taught any thing but humble and holy obedience to all just and lawfull authority sincere love and constant maintenance of the Truth What is it that We may be suspected of What Designes may we be thought to carry on What Interesses What ends What is it that Wee hold deare unto us but the Gospell of our Lord but the soules of our people Did we make a gaine of them Did Titus make a gaine of you Thinke you that wee excuse our selves Wee speake before God in Christ 'T is not a new thing to be challeng'd as Seditious as Tertullus accused Paul To be hurtfull unto Kings a●d Provinces as Rehum and others wrote against the Jewes To be setters forth of new Doctrines as the Epicureans blasphemed that chosen vessell But our witnesse is with God and in our consciences and before the people in our preaching and in our conversation That we are not the troublers of Israel That we pray for the Peace of our King and that we seeke the wellfare of our Nation and that we teach no new no other Doctrine then what the Scriptures confirme as this Treatise will fully shew The● what our King himselfe hath allowed in his clearing our Brethren of Scotland by Proclamation when they had Covenanted and taken up Armes then what our State hath formerly favoured in yeelding ayde to Rochell Then what other Churches Scotland the French Protestants the united Provinces and great Divines have given suff●●ge unto And as for the State of this Kingdome in the very Constitution of it The Case is yet clearer King James himselfe blamed a Bishop for a right-Court-Sermon that hee preached before Him and the House of Peeres That hee had not distinguish'd well betweene a King at large and the King of England And in a manner even all the points of the present difference might be answered against the King by the King Himselfe in His Majesties Answer to the nineteene Propositions pag. 17 18 19 20. Which wee desire the Readers seriously againe to peruse as out of which a politicall Catechisme might be drawne to instruct the people just so as wee have instructed them To conclude After the Kingdome hath duely considered the many provocations it hath had which will appeare by the Remonstrances Declarations and Votes of Parliament The No●successe of other Remedies as namely frequent Petitions and Treaties and hath read this following Discourse with a minde not prejudiced We hope that this present Action of Parliament will stand justified and our Judgement and Consciences cleare Especially after this our Protestation That wee seeke nothing but the Truth and to the Truth if others can convince us we are resolved to yeeld SCRIPTVRE AND REASON PLEADED For Defensive Armes SECT I. The Question rightly stated THe Question which the Doctor hath propounded as necessary to be scanned is thus exprest Whether if any King will not discharge his Trust but is bent or seduced to subvert Religion Lawes and Liberties Subjects may take up Armes and Resist He maintaines the negative and his principall place of strength is Rom. 13.2 Whosoever resists shall receive to themselves damnation This he interprets of resisting the higher power mentioned ver 1. by which he understands the King or Supreame and the resisting a resisting by Armes But it seemes to me however he make a shew of distinct handling his matter that he either carelesly or sophistically confounds things which ought to have been more distinctly exprest by one that truly desired to have resolved consciences in so weighty a cause as forbearing to defend Religion Laws and Liberties when they are all in danger of subversion To which purpose I shall make bold to propound divers considerations towards a better clearing of the true state of the question and the strength of his proofes for it 1. It cannot be imagined that a King who is bent or seduced to subvert Religion Lawes and Liberties meanes to doe this by a meere personall strength For which no Sampson-like strength would suffice but by the assistance of others whether men in office and trusted with the civill Sword under him if he can draw them into his designe or by the souldiery ordinary or extraordinary and that not in one part of the Kingdome but in severall parts as fast as he can get instruments for his turn 2. Here then will come divers questions belonging to the case 1. Whether the resisting by Armes the illegall attempts of an under Officer of Justice suppose a Major or Sheriffe though armed with Commission under the Kings hand or seale be a resisting of the higher power and damnable 2. Whether the resisting a Captaine of the Souldiery comming to act any illegall commands with his bands of armed men though he also have a like Commission from the King be a resisting of the King and so forbidden Both these where the King is not present but in another part of the Kingdome 3. It will be further questioned in case he should grant resistance lawfull thus farr

ready to doe all things for Ireland as if he had stayed at London 2. When he had been at Hull and demanded of the Parliament justice upon Sr. John Hotham he declared he would doe no businesse till he had satisfaction in that except only the businesse of Ireland 3. A few dayes after that he would in all haste goe over in Person to subdue the bloody Rebels and venture his Royall Person to recover that poore Kingdome Who now almost can beleeve his Eares or Eyes that any thing should be done to the prejudice of Ireland 4. If the dates be observed of some of those things mentioned in that Answer of the House of Commons they will be found done before the Parliament had done any thing more toward their own defence then when that profession was made after the Kings being at Hull when the King would have ventured himselfe to goe into Ireland 5. It is strange that the puni●hing of Sr. John Hotham and the suppressing the Militia the recovery of Hull and the Magazene which at last after many other Declarations perswading of no intention at all of a War against the Parliament the King declares he would loose his life but he would obtaine and this I think Quaere before there was any one man listed for the Parliaments defence should be thought a necessity allowing any retarding much lesse disappointing the crying necessities of Ireland after such Protestations of care for it 6. If the Parliament be not only not so good subjects as the now entertained Recusants but unlesse they be worse then those horrid Rebels of whom some of the Kings Declarations speake with destation enough while the Parliament protests before God and the Kingdome and the world that they have no Thoughts nor Intentions but loyall to the King and faithfull to the Religion and Kingdome and the Popish bloody Rebels who one while avouch they have the Kings authority for what they have done another while seeme to renounce him and to intend a new King But alwayes professe to intend the extirpation of the Brittish Nation and Protestant Religion in that Kingdome and then to come over into England to fight against the Parliament and Puritans and Protestants here If I say the Parliament be not worse then the Irish Traitours it is a prodegy that any necessity can be thought sufficient to doe such and so many acts as that Declaration of the House of Commons mentions or almost any one of them to the woefull prejudice of that bleeding Kingdome and great incouragement of the bloody Rebels It would be too long to insist on every particular which if a man would Rhetorically and but justly amplifie he might astonish all men how the former Protestations and those actions could agree and what necessity could be pretended for some of them as entertaining Irish Rebels c. vide 7. Unto all which adde but this as a corrollary that the whole is a most unhappy verification of that which at the first breaking out of the Rebellion was related as spoken from the Rebels that they had a considerable Party in England in the very Parliament and the Court and that they doubted not but to find us so much work at home as we should have no leisure to send succours to the Protestants there Nor can I forget what I heard a few dayes before the Irish Rebellion brake out that a Steward of a Popish great Lord disswading a Church-warden from obeying the Order of the House of Commons about taking away Idolatrous Pictures c. Bidds him not be too hasty for before a Moneth were at an end he should see great alteration and so it appeared though blessed be God not yet to the full of their hopes Lay now all these things together which the Dr. hath instanced in and forced this descant upon with those in the former Section and then let all consciences exercise their most unpartiall judgement and most ample charity and then suspect in whom the designe hath bin and is which hath necessitated the other party to take Armes to defend themselves and then let them say Amen to an Application of two Stories of Scriptures one of Jotham to the men of Shechem If you have done faithfully c. then rejoyce and ●et your party rejoyce but if not then fire come forth and devoure c. The other of Solomon concerning Abner and Amasa's bloud let it rest on the head of Joab c. but upon David and upon his house and upon his Throne let there be peace from the Lord for ever and let I say all that love God and the King and Justice and Truth say Amen But the Doctor will have us consider what the King hath done to exempt these scruples of feares and jealousies from the peoples minds Which in summe are the passing of Bils this Parliament and protestations for Religion Priviledges of Parliament Laws and Liberties For the first of these what are they worth in ill times and under ill Judges if once the Militia and the Navy be surrendred and this Parliament dissolved what did magna Charta the Petition of Right Articles of Religion serve to prevent all the illegalities and innovations upon Church and State before this Parliament or what did all the Laws and Priviledges of Scotland serve them for If suspected Councellours and followers be still about the King and favoured by him where shall be a security to take away these feares Also for the other What have Protestations prevailed to prevent former danger That unparallel'd danger to the House of COMMONS and the whole Kingdome by his comming into the House with such Followers waiting at the doors so weaponed so behaving themselvs and speaking then and since was it not the very day after his Message denying them the Guard they desired and protesting toward the close We do ingage unto you solemnly the word of a King that the security of all and every one of you from violence is and shall ever be as much Our care as the preservation of Vs and Our Children And how did all men judge that beleeved the Protestations set out at Yorke a while that no war was intended against the Parliament till some strength gotten as was noted before under the name of a Guard out of Yorke-shiere and more endeavoured by Agents in severall parts of the Kingdom and hoped for from beyond Sea altered the language and the face of things till it came to the present extremities Also whatever the Doctors Informations were at the time he was penning his clause of applauding the Kings excellent moderation amidst the pressures and extremities of warr shewing what respect he hath to the Property and Liberty of the Subject whosoever remembers what all but wilfully ignorant or altogether carelesse know of taking away armes from the Countries along to Chester and backe afterward the plundering of Banbury notwithstanding the Kings promise to the contrary and Abington Reading but most specially Brainford and Kingston