Mother of the Virgin Mary why did not you put in also Elizabeth mother of the great Baptist and the Angel Gabriel as well as Michael Ismael J know not indeed Isaac Nor do J know if it be not because that Elizabeth and Gabriel made the Popish Ave Maria as Scripture relates but can you tell as the Church of England put in your Kalender S. George S. Andrew and S. David Patrons of England Scotland and Wales why did not she put in S. Patrick Patron of Ireland Ismael J can't tell what may be the reason think you Isaac J know not if it be not that he forfeited his place for his Purgatorie for tho the others were as deep in Popery as he if wee believe the Papists but the Parliament pass'd an Act of Indemnity for England Scotland and Wales after the kings return to his kingdoms and thereby the sin of Popery was forgiven to their Patrons and no act of Indemnitie was past for Jreland whereby Patrik is still guiltie if it be not that the Seaven Champions of Christendom tell us S. Patrick was S. George his footman and it was not thought good manners to put him in the same rank with his Master Ismael For shame if not for piety forbeare J cannot endure to sully sacred things with profane Ralleries the Kalender is a holy institution of the Church and ought to be reverenc'd Isaac And so is Episcopacy surplices Bells Organs and Corner Capps yet J hope you will give Presbyterians Anabaptists Quakers c. leave to laugh at them and be still as good Children of the Reformation as you if you esteem them to be sacred and holy reverence and honor them J commend you for it if others judge otherwise let them follow their humor each one as he fancies saies the fellow kissing â—his Cow this is the holy Libertie of the Reformation Scripture as each one vnderstands it Ismael Let vs return to our last discourse how is it possible that those Tenets of Popery should be the Doctrin of the Reformation wheras wee see the Church of England so severely persecut the Professors of them Isaac Do you think a Doctrin is not of the Reformation because it s denied by the Church of England or because she persecutes the Professors of it do not they persecute all non Conformists as well as Popery persecution is no proof of a Doctrin to be bad it 's but the effect of a blind zeale armed with power for to know certainly if a Doctrin be of the Reformation you must trye it by our test or Rule of faith which is the Written Word of God and whateuer any man of sound judgment of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in Scripture or an indubitable consequence out of it that man may believe that Doctrin let all others judge of it as they list and by so believing will be a true Child of the Reformation wherefore since that the Church of France that of England in Edward the VI. time Luther Melancton Grotius and the other authors J quoted do judge Transubstantiation Popes Supremacy and Communion in one kind to be the Doctrine of Sctipture wee must call it the Doctrin of the Reformation and if you judge as they did you may believe that Doctrin and be still of the Reformation as well as they Ismael Can you shew me any other Tenet of Popery which you can call the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Alas you can hardly shew me any Tenet of Popery but what is its Doctrin what Doctrin more Popish than that of Confession and Absolution from sins yet it s as truly the Doctrin of the Reformation as Figurative Presence for not only Lobechius Altamerus Sarcerius and Melancton say it s a Sacrament but the Church of England in our Common Prayer booke declares that Priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiuen to the Penitents but also the power of forgiuing them and sets down the form of Absolution which the Minister is to vse Our Lord Iesus Christ who left power to the Church to absolve all sinners which truly repent of his mercie forgive thee and thine offences and I by his authoritie committed vnto me do Absolve thee from all they sins the ministers of the Diocess of Lincoln in their Survey of the book of Common Prayers checkt this Doctrin as Popery and petitioned to have it blotted out but could not prevaile whereby we are given to vnderstand it s the Doctrin of the Reformation It 's Popery wee say to call Extream Vnction Confirmation and Holy Order of Priesthood Sacraments and who can justly denie all this to be the Doctrin of the Reformation for Calvin saies I confess the Disciples of Christ did vse Extream Vnction as a Sacrement I am not saies he of the opinion of those who judge it was only a Medecin for corporal diseases Calvin also and with him our Common Prayer book and all our Divins say a Sacrament is nothing els but a Visible sign of the invisible Grace wee receive by it and they say with Couel Hooker and others that this definition fits exactly Confirmation wherfore the Ministers of the Diocess of Lincolne checkt the Common Prayer book for giving the Difinition of a Sacrament to Confirmation Melancton Bilson Hooker and Calvin expresly teach that the Order of Priesthood is a SacrameÌ„t And when men of so emineÌ„t judgment of our Reformation teach this to be the Doctrin of Scripture who doubts but that it is of the Reformation Ismael By this you destroy the Doctrin of the Reformation of two Sacraments only Isaac Destroy it God forbid Because the Church of England saies there are but two Sacraments I say its the Doctrin of the Reformation there are but two and because so many eminent men judge by Scripture there are more J say its the Doctrin of the Reformation there are more that 's to say six Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance Extrem Unction and Holy Order and every likely our Bishops and Ministers for their Wyves sake will not stick to grant that Matrimony also is a Sacrament Ismael But can you say that Prayers to Saints and Jmages Prayers for the dead and Purgatorie are not meer Popery and in no wise the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Without doubt those Tenets are Popery but all the world knows the Lutherans vse Jmages in their Churchs and pray before them and the â—oly synod of Charenton has declared as wee said in our first Dialogue that the Lutherans have nothing of Superstition or Idolatry in their manner of Divin Worship this is also the Doctrin of Jacobus Andreas Brachmanus Kemnitius Luther and Brentius quoted by Beza and why should not a Doctrin judged by such eminent men to be of Scripture be called the Doctrin of the Reformation Prayers for the dead and Purgatorie is Popery confessedly but alas it is
in the Catholic Doctrin of the Church of England pag. 103. which is but an exposition of the 39. Articles Our Rule of faith is but Scripture as each Person of sound judgment in the Church vnderstands it Authority is given to the Church and to each person of sound judgment in it to judge in Controversies of faith and this is not the privat judgment of our Church but also of our Brethren of forreign Countries Ismael J confess not only these but many other Drs abet your discourse and the General Vogue of our Reformation is for Scripture as each one vnderstands it but alas you see well that wee can never settle any Religion or Church by such a Rule of faith Isaac You can never settle any but rhis That every man may without leâ— or hinderance believe what he please and why should not this be a good Religion if Scripture as each one vnderstands it be not our Rule of faith if we must be constrained to believe Scripture not as wee vnderstand it but as it is vnderstood by this or that Congregation whâ— difference betwixt vs and Papists They must believe Scripture as interpreted by the Pope and Councilâ— have ever so much light from God be ever so wise and witty you muâ— depose your own judgment aâ— submit to that of the Pope Counciâ— and Popish Church to this pass â— are come also wee must believe tâ— kings supremacie Episcopacy Fâ—gurative presence tho perhaps we dâ— not judge by Scripture it be trâ— Doctrin wee are constrained by Penal laws and Acts of Parliament tâ— believe them as Papists by the Inquisition and why because thâ— Church of England vnderstands bâ— Scripture its true and if you replâ— you do not interpret Scripture sâ— you 'l not be heard you must submiâ— and believe against your judgment and what 's this but plain Popish Tyrany ouer mens consciences Did Luther and Calvin forsake the Pope and Councils for to submit their judgments to any other No but to follow Scripture as each one of them vnderstood it and tho Luther was a man raysed by God and replenisht with his spirit to repair the ruins of the Church yet Calvin did no more submit to him than Luther did to the Pope nor did Zuinglius submit to Calvin but followed his own sense of Scripture nor did Oecolampadius submit to Zuinglius but every one searched the Scripture believed and taught what they thought to be true and thus we became a Reformation of Popery if therefore we will continue a Reformation and walk by the spirit of our first blessed Reformers wee must not be constrained to believe any mans sense of Scripture we must believe whateuer we think to be true and have no other Rule of faith but Scripture as each one vnderstands it Ismael And what then what do you inferr from this discourse Isaac This consequence that wheras no true Child of the Reformation be he of what Congregation you will can justly deny our Rule of faith to be Scripture as any Person of sound judgment interprets it it follows vnauoidably that the Doctrin of the Reformation is Whatever any Person of sound judgment interprets to be the true sense of Scripture and whatever Luther Calvin Beza or any other of sound judgment in the Reformation since its first ryse vntill this day taught to be the true sense of Scripture is to be called and esteemed the Doctrin of the Reformation tho to others of this or that Congregation it may seem to be wicked and scandalous Doctrin And now let me answer to an objection you made against this Principle in our entrance to this discourse you objected that many Papish Drs and Casuists delivered scandalous and base Doctrins which the Papists will not admit to be the Doctrin of their Church tho deliverd by Papish Drs and thence you pretended that the particular sentiments of privat Drs of the Reformation are not to be called the Doctrin of our Church But be pleased to observe the difference betwixt Popery and our Reformation the Rule of faith in Popery is Scripture as interpreted by the Pope and Council or their Church they will admit no other consequently no Doctrin is to be called Popery but what is judged by the Pope and his Church or Council to be the sense of Scripture and if any Dr or Universitie holds any sense contrary to theirs it is to be called the Doctrin of that particular person and not the Doctrin of the Popish Church because their Rule of faith is not Scripture as interpreted by any Person of sound judgment but as interpreted by their Pope and Council But wheras our Rule of faith in the Reformation is Scripture as each person of sound judgment interprets it whatever Doctrin or sense is said by any man to be of Scripture is justly to be called the Doctrin of the Reformation for example Melancton a man of sound judgment great learning and of an vpright conscience taught Bigamy to be the Doctrin of scripture Beza taught the Lords supper might be administer'd in any kind of victuals as well as in bread and wine Calvin taught that Christ despaired on the Cross and suffered the pains of hell after his death why then let all the Bishops and Universities of England condemn this Doctrin let all the Synods of France and Germany decry it the Doctrin will be still of the Reformation because its Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment Ismael The heate of your discourse has tyred you and my memorie iâ— sufficiently loaden with what yoâ— have said let me digest it in my privat retirement and wee will meeâ— again Isaac Content carrie with yoâ— these three points which I have proved convincingly first our Rule of faith is Scripture not as interpreted by this or that but by anâ— man of sound judgment secondly iâ— follows hence that the Doctrin of thâ— Reformation must be and ought to be called whatever any man of sound judgment saies is the sense of scripture thirdly it follows wee may change Religions as often as wee please III. DIALOGUE ISMAEL I remember well the summary of your last discourse given me in three points and I find the second to be absurd and repugnant to reason you 'l neuer perswade it tho you have pleaded for it with great energy what if a silly Woman Cobler or other tradesman reade Scripture and giue their sense of it that forsooth must be called the Doctrin of the Reformation and it shall be lawfull for them to believe it against the Doctrin of the whole Church Isaac Do not limit Gods infinit goodness by measuring his mercies towards his Creatures with your narrow apprehensions take notice he saies he has chosen the weake and contemptible of the world for to confound the strong ones I confess vnto you Father that you have hid thesâ— things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them to the little ones And therefore he choosed poore simple
Scripture alone as their Rule of faith without any regard of the Pope Church Councils or Fathers The Church of Rome proud and impatient of any opposition condemned them as Hereticks for not submitting their judgments to her for takeing Scripture as they vnderstood it and not as the Church and Councils vnderstood it for their Rule of faith and if this be a crime wee are as guiltie as they wee are equally nocent or innocent wee are both Hereticks or none is wee are therefore concern'd in their honor and ought to defend the integrity of their procedure against the Common enemy which is the Popeâ— they were Reformers of the Church in their times as wee are in ours and wheras thy have the same Rulâ— of faith so they have the same Religion with the Reformation Ismael Then you will say Ariâ—nism is the Doctrin of the Reformâ—tion and wee may lawfully believe iâ— Isaac I say God's Unitie in Nature and Trinity in Persons is thâ— Doctrin of the Reformation becausâ— the Protestant Lutheran and Hâ—gonot Church judge by Scripture iâ— is true and if you judge also bâ— Scripture it s the true Doctrin yoâ— may believe it I say also if yoâ— judge by Scripture this Mystery is not true you may safely deny it according the Principles of the Reformation and be still as good a member of the Reformed Church as they who believe it for whoeuer believes what he judges by Scripture to be true is a true Reformed and that the denyal of the Trinitie is as much the Doctrin of the Reformation as the belief of it it appears not only because it was the Doctrin of the Arians who as I proved are truly of the Reformed Church but because it was taught by the greatest Ligths of our Church Calvin saies the text My Father is greater than I must be vnderstood of Christ not only as he is Man but also as he is God And that the Council of Nice did abuse the text My Father and I are one for to prove the Vnity of both in Nature wheras it only signifies their Vnity by conformity of Will Again he saies Epist 2. ad Polon in tract Theol. pag. 796. That prayer Holy Trinity one God have mercy of vs is barbarous and does not please me And ads The son has his own substance distinct from the Father His Disciple Danaeus saies it s a foolish insipid prayer and our great Apostle Luther who as Fox witnesseth was the Chariot and conductor of Israel and a man extraordinarily raised and replenisht with Gods spirit to teach the purity of the Ghospel caused that prayer to be blotted out of the Litanies That word Trinity saies he sounds coldly my soule hates that word Homousion and the Arian did well in not admitting it Lastly Ochinus that great Oracle of England impugns this Mysterie with a strong discourse Wee are not obliged to believe saies he more than the Saints of the Ancient Testament otherwise our condition would be worse than theirs but they were not obliged to believe this Mystery therefore we are not obliged Examin I pray the works of these eminent Drs. where I quote them consider if they be not not only men of sound judgment but men extraordinarily raised by God saies the Synod of Charenton the chariots and conductors of Israel saies Fox men to be reverenc'd after Christ saies our Dr Powel and Apostolical Oracles sent to teach vs the purity of the Ghospell and conclude it s an vndeniable Veritie that this is the Doctrin of the Reformation wheras it's Scripture as interpreted by such men O! but England France and Scotland believes this Mysterie well and what then that proves that the Mysterie is also the Doctrin of the Reformation because whateuer any Man of sound judgment thinks to be Scripture is its Doctrin but is England or France alone the whole Reformation are not Luther Caluin Danaeus Ochinus as well of the Reformation and men of as sound judgment as they since therefore they vnderstand by Scripture ther 's no Trinitie it s the Doctrin of the Reformation also that ther 's none believe it or deny it which you like best and you 'l be still of the Reformed Church Ismael By the Principle you run vpon you may say any blasphemy is the Doctrin of the Reformation for ther 's hardly any so execrable but som Dr of ours has delivered and taught it Isaac The Principle I run vpon is this Scripture as each Person of sound judgment interprets it is our Rule of faith judge you if that be not a good Principle in our Reformed Church wheras this is the Rule of faith given vs by the 39. Articles and generally by all our Drs as I proved in my first Dialogue this being our Rule of faith and Reformed Doctrin its evident that whatever Doctrin is judged by any Person of sound judgment to be contained in Scripture is the Doctrin of our Reformation som Persons of sound judgement say the Real Presence is expressed by Scripture this therefore is the Doctrin of the Reformation others say only Figurative Presence is taught in Scripture this also is the Doctrin of the Reformation som vnderstand by Scripture there is a Mysterie of the blessed Trinitie this therefore is the Doctrin of the Reformation others vnderstand ther 's no such Mysterie this also is the Doctrin of the Reformation so that whether you believe or deny this or any other Tenet controverted you 'l still hold the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael Calvin saies Christ prai'd vnaduisedly the Eve of his Passion that he vttered words wherof he was afterward sorry that in his passion he was so troubled of all sides that ouerwhelm'd with desperation he desisted from invoking God which was to renunce all hopes of salvation And saies he if you object us absurd and scandalous to affirm Christ despaired I answer this desperation proceeded from him as he was man not as he was God And this is not only the Doctrin of Calvin but of Brentius Marlotus Jacobus Minister quoted by Bilson and of Beza will you say this is the Doctrin of the Reformation or that wee can without scruple believe it Also Calvin saies That Châ—ist's corporal death was not sufficient for to redeem vs but that after hauing despaired on the Cross he suffered the death of his soule that 's to say that his soule after his corporal death suffered the pains of the damn'd in hell And saies he in the same place they are but ignorant doltish brutish men who will deny it Luther also teachs the same Doctrin As he suffered with exceeding pains the death of the Body so it seems he suffered afterward the death of his soule in hell Epinus a learned Lutheran saies Christ descended into hell for thee and suffered not only corporal death but the death and fire of hell Mr. Fulk and Parkins avow this is also the express Doctrin
Apostles men raised extraordinaryly by God and replenisht with his Spirit to teach vs the Ghospell and if wee be to seek for the pure and Orthodox Doctrin of the Reformation ought not wee to be said rather by Luther Calvin Melancton Zuinglius Beza and our other first Reformers than by a few Ministers and Bishops of England who tho they be wise and pious men yet they are not of that stamp as the others And if our present Congregations presume to correct them and say they ouerlasht in their Doctrin will not the Papists say if they have been such scandalous Masters and fals teachers why did you receive their Reformation and as they erred so grosly in such prime articles of Christianity why do not you feare and suspect they have also erred in the rest secondly the Papists will say if as they reformed vs you reform them then you must expect and permit that others may reform you and forsake your Doctrin as you forsake theirs Ismael I wish you could make out that the Reformation was in its full perfection in its beginning had you read som Writers of ours perhaps you would judge otherwise Musculus a learned Lutheran writes thus Thus it is with vs at present that if any be desirous to see a great rabble of knaues turbulent Spirits deceitfull persons Coseners and debauch men let him go to a Ciâ—ty where the Ghospel is purely preached and he shall find them by multitudes for its more manifest than the day light that never were there more vnbridled and vnruly people among the turks and other infidels than the Professors of the Reformed Ghospel Luther himself saies as much The world grows dayly worse and men are now more covetous revengefull and lycentious than they were in Popery Mr. Stubs sayes no less After my travells round about all England I found the people in most parts proud malicious ambitious and careless of good works Mr Richard Geferie in his Sermon at St. Pauls Cross printed in 1604. I may freely speake what I have plainly seen that in Flanders â—ever was there more drunkness in Italy more wantonnesâ— in lury more hypocrisy in Turkie more impiety in Tartary more iniquity than is practis'd generally in England and particularly in London Certainly our Reformation at present deserues a better caracter never did the Alehouses and Taverns complain more heauily of want of trading which is a proof of our Sobriety the Churches which we see a building in London is a good testimony of piety and we are so farr from any smack of hypocrisy that you shall not see in all London the least appearance of Virtue so hiddenly its kept from mortal Eyes but what you may meet in our honests Quakers Isaac I confess our Congregations as now they are are very good both in Doctrin and manners but I say also that the Doctrin and manners of our Reformation at its first beginning was as pure as holy and as true as now it is or ever it will be Nay supposing and granted their manners and Doctrin were so corrupt as those Drs. mention I say that amidst all those vices their life was as holy innocent blamless and pure as yours is now and that you may be convinc't of this truth know that Calvin expressy teachs Wee belieue the sins of the faithfull he means of the Reformation are but venial sins not but that they deserve death but because there is no damnation for the Children of Grace in as much as their sins are not imputed to them And again he saies Wee can assure ourselves wee can no more be damn'd for any sins than Iesus-Christ himself Luther is of the same opinion As nothing but faith doth justifiy vs so nothing but incredulity is a sin Again No sin is so great that it can condemn a man such as are damn'd are damn'd only for their incredulitie Whitaker No sin can hurt a man who has faith The same is taught by Wotten Fulk Tindal and Beza It s therefore the Doctrin of Scripture as interpreted by these Persons of great and sound judgment that incests murthers intemperance or whateuer else you call a sin incredulitie excepted either is no sin at all or but venial sins which do no harm nor cannot damn the children of the Reformation if therefore our Brethren lived in the beginning of the Reformation as those authors relate they liued according Scripture as interpreted to them by men of sound judgment and this being our Rule of faith and manners they did not ill but very well in following it Ismael They were men of the Reformation its true who taught these errors and dissolution of life and good manners in so much they swerued from the spirit holyness and purity of the Reformation and must not be believed nor commended looke vpon the Reformation as now it is and you will not find any such scandalous Doctrin or corruption of manners Isaac They were not only men of the Reformation but the greatest Oracles of it which you will not match with any of our present congregations and it s not pardonable in any Reformed Child to say such Oracles extrordinarily raised by God to teach the purity of the Ghospel should have taught either Errors in Doctrin or dissolution of manners they taught what in their conscience they vnderstood by Scripture to be true if you will not be so irreverent as to say that they were knaves Who spoke and taught against their conscience and knoâ—ledge Therefore they taught the Doctrin of the Reformation purely and truly the consequence is euidentâ— for what is the Doctrin of the Reformation but what wise learned men of sound judgment think and vnderstand by Scripture to be true why is figuratiue Presence the Doctrin of the Reformation tho denied by Lutherans who are Reformed also but because wise learned men judge by Scripture as they vnderstand it it s the true Doctrin or can you give me any other Rule of faith by which wee may know what Doctrin is of the Reformation and what not but Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vnderstands it or what Rule can you give for to know what is good or euil to be don but Scripture as vnderstood bâ— such Persons if therefore Luther Calvin and the other Drs. J quoted judge by Scripture that Doctrin and manner of life to be true and good why may not wee say its the Doctrin of the Reformation if you or the Church of England or Scotland judge that Doctrin to be false and that manner of life to be a dissolution and corruption of manners why you are men of sound judgment you vnderstand Scripture so that will be the Doctrin also of the Reformation you may believe it but you must not deny that Luther and Calvins Doctrin also is of the Reformation because they were men of as sound a judgmen as you You transgress haynously against modestie in saying those sacred Organs of God
Tenets the Doctrin of the Reformation or consistent with its Principles Isaac The kings supremacy is vndoubtedly the Doctrin of the Reformation because it s judged by the Church of England to be of Scripture yet not only the Quakers Presbyterians Anabaptists and other Congregations judge it s not of Scripture but as erroneus a Tenet as that of the Popes supremacy Calvin 6. Amos saies They were vnaduised people and blasphemers who raised king Henry the VIII so far as to call him the head of the Church but also that no Civil Magistrat can be the head of any particular Church is the Doctrin of the Centuriators cent sept pag. 11. of Cartwright Viretus Kemnitius and many others who doubts then but that in the Principles and Doctrin of the Reformation you may deny the Kings Supremacy tho the Church of England believes it The Popes Supremacy is the Doctrin of Popery who doubts it but it s also the Doctrin of the Reformation for many of our Eminent Drs. haue judged it to be the Doctrin of Scripture as Whitgift who cites Calvin and Musculus for this opinion but its needfull wee relate som of their express words I do not deny saies Luther but that the Bishop of Rome is has been and ought to be the first of all I believe he is aboue all other Bishops it s not lawfull to deny his supremacy Melancton saies no less that the B. of Rome is aboue all the Church that it is his Office to govern to judge in controversies to watch ouer the Priests to keep all Nations in conformity and vnity of Doctrin Somaisius The Pope of Rome has been without controversie the first Metropolitan in Italie and not only in Italie nor only in the West but in all the world the other Metropolitans have bin chief in their respective districts but the pope of Rome has bin Metropolitan and Primat not only of som particular Dioces but of all Grotius has expresly the same Doctrin and proves this supremacy belongs to the Pope de Iure Divino J pray consider if these Drs. be not men of sound judgment and of eminent learning and credit in our Reformation and if our Doctrin be Scripture as such men vnderstand it consider I say with what justice can this Doctrin be called Popery more than Reformed Doctrin As for Transubstantiation it contains two difficulties first if the Body of Christ be really in the Sacrament and this Real presence the Lutherans defend to be the Doctrin of Scripture as well as the Papists why then should it be called Popish more than Reformed Doctrin the second is if the substance of bread be in the Sacrament togither with Christs Body Lutherans say it is Papists say it is not but that there is a Transubstantiation or change of the whole substance of bread into the Body of Christ but hear what Luther saies of this that wee call Popish Doctrin I give all Persons libertie to believe in this point what they please without hazard of their salvation either that the bread is in the Sacrament of the Altar or that it is not Would Luther have given this liberty if Transubstantiation had not been the Doctrin of the Reformation as well as any other Calvin also and Beza affirm that Luther's Doctrin of the coexistence of Christ's Body and the bread is more absurd than the Popish Doctrin of the existence of the Body alone if therefore wee be true Reformed and safely believe the Doctrin of Luther which is the most absurd much more will we be of the Reformation by believing that of the Papists which is less Communion in One kind is the Doctrin of the Reformation no less than Communion in both for besides that Luther saies They sin not against Christ who vse one kind onely seeing Christ has not commanded to vse both and again tho it were an excellent thing to vse both kinds in the Sacrament and Christ has commanded nothing in this as necessary yet it were better to follow peace and Vnity than to contest about the kinds but also Melancton who in the opinion of Luther surpasses all the Fathers of the Church expresly teachs the same Doctrin and the Church of England Statut 1. Edward VI. commands That the Sacrament be commonly administer'd in both kinds if necessitie does not require otherwise mark he saies but Commonly and that for som necessity it may be receved in one lastly th◠sufficiency of one kind in the Sacrament is plainly set down by our Reformed Church of France in her Ecclesiastical Disciplin printed at Saumur chap. 12. art 7. The Minister must give the bread in the supper to them who cannot drink the Cup provided it be not for contempt And the reason is because there are many who cannot endure the tast of Wine wherefore it often happens among them that som persons do take the bread alone and truly if som of our Ministers in England do not give better wine than they are acustomed who very irreverently serve that holy Table with naughtie trash it s much to be feared that our flock will also petition to be dispens'd with in the Cup because there are som of so delicat Palats that they cannot endure the tast of bad Wine Now you may admire the injustice of the Papists in condemning our Reformed Doctrin and Doctors as Hereticks wheras those Tenets are believed by many of vs as well as by them and the groundless severity of our Congregations in exclaiming against that Doctrin it being the Doctrin of the Reformation wheras so many eminent men of our own judge it to be of Scripture Ismael Wheras I see people persecuted by the Church of England for these Tenets I can hardly be perswaded they are the Doctrin of the Reformation at our next meeting wee will pursue this discourse the Bell rings for morning Prayers A Dieu VII DIALOGUE ISAAC You come from Church as I guess by the Common Prayer booke I see in your hands I pray let me see the Kalender of it if it be à la mode nouvelle which was made by the Church of England since his Majesties restauration Ismael Why have you met any thing in it which shocks you Isaac Shock me No Doctrin or practice of any Congregation or man of sound judgment of our Church can shock me you know I pleade for libertie to believe and practise as each one judges by scripture to be true and good But I observe in your Kalender you have a day consecrated to S. Ann in the month of of July I would gladly know what Ann is this which the Church of England honors so much Ismael It 's Ann the Mother of the Virgin Mary Isaac Is 't possible J thought it was Ann Bolen the mother of our Virgen Elizabeth J am sure the Church of England is more obliged to her than to the other but as you have put heer the
dirt vpon his Church the honest Quaker will say I am a profane man others perhaps will say I am of no Religion but a despiser of all and our Congregations are so vncharitable that likely none will accept of me because I say all religions are very good a sad thing that a man must be hated for speaking well of his neighbours and that each one must have all the world to be naught but himself this then is my Religion To suffer persecution for justice and truth to render good for evil to bless those who curse me and speake well of all congregations whylst they speake all evil against me reflect well vpon what J discoursed hitherto and you will find J am as great a louer of the Reformation as they who may think me its enemie and reade my following discourse and you will find I loue Popery as well as the Reformation the Spirit of God makes no exception of Persons Ismael You promised to proue by the Principles of the Reformation that wee may believe all the Tenets of Popery and remain still of the Reformation how can this be Isaac You remember I excepted one Principle of Poperie wherin you must necessarily dissent from them and if you deny this one Principle you may believe all their others Tenets as well as the Pope and be as â—ood a Child of the Reformation as Luther Ismael What Principle is this which you seem to make the only distinctive sign of a Reformed from a Papist Isaac Listen a whyle a Papist is not a Papist because he believes Purgatory Transubstantiation Indulgences and the rest of Popish Tenets but because he believes them vpon the testimonie of the Pope and Church because they assure him they are revealed Truths if a Papist did say J believe these Tenets because I myself do judge by scripture that they are revealed and not because the Pope and Church say they are he would be no Papist The Papist believes the Mystery of the Trinity the Incarnation and passion of Christ the Protestant believes the same Mysteries yet the one is a Papist and no Protestant the other is a Protestant and no Papist And why because the Papist believes them vpon the testimonie of the Pope and Church the Protestant believes them vpon the testimony of Gods Written Word believe then whatever you please of Popery provided you believe it because you judge by Scripture its true and not because the Pope or the Church sayes it you 'l never be a Papist but a perfect Reformed Ismael If this discourse be solid you may hedge in all the Articles of Popery into our Reformation Isaac If you peruse the works of our Reformed Drs you 'l hardly find any Article of Popery but has been judged by many or som of our best Reformed Drs to be the true Doctrin of scripture and wheras any Doctrin which any Person of sound judgment vnderstands by scripture to be true may be justly called the Doctrin of the Reformation it follows that hardly is there any Article of Popery for which wee see so many persecutions againsts subjects and such troubles in our Parliaments but is truly the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael Shew me som examples of this Isaac The Veneration of Relicks and Saints dead bones is generally believed by vs to be meer Popery and superstition therefore wee made no store of Luther and Calvins bones tho wee know them to be as great Saints as any in the Popish Church but Veneration of Relicks and Saints bones is the Doctrin of our Reformation for whatever is set down and commended by our Common Prayer book must be vndoubtedly esteemed our Reformed Doctrin and practice and our common Prayer book printed since our Kings happy restauration in its Kalender sets down a day to the Translation of S. Edward king of Saxons Body in the month of June and dedicats an other to the translation of the Bodies of S. Martin and Swithin in the month of July The Veneration and vse of the Sign of the Cross is flat Popery in the judgment of all our Congregations yet any Reformed Child may laudably and piously vse it wheras our Common Prayer Book in the Administration of Baptism commands the Minister to vse it saying Wee sign him with the sign of the Cross in token that heerafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner against Sin the world and the Deuil And in our kalender printed since his Majesti's restauration it s called the Holy Cross Our Congregations generally believe its Popery to keep Holy daies except the Sabboth day and Saints daies to fast Lent Vigils commanded Emberdays and fridaies and all this is recommanded to vs in our Common Prayer book and the Minister is commanded in the Administration of the Lords Supper to publish the Holy daies of the week and exhort vs to fast and surely he is not commanded to teach or exhort vs to any thing but to the Doctrin of the Reformation It 's true the Students of our Colledges of Oxford and Cambridge are much troubled with scruples in this point these Pauperes de Lugduno are compelled to fast all fridays throughout the yeare and it s not hungar that makes them complain but tenderness of Conscience because they feare its Popery It 's a Popish error wee say to believe that Pennance or our penal works of fasting almsdeeds or corporal austerities can auaile and helpe for the remission of our Sins and satisfying Gods Justice No we say penal works serue for noting all is don by Repentance that 's to say by sorrow of heart for having offended God This is the Doctrin of Danaeus Willet Junius and Calvin who saies Francis Dominick Bernard Antony and the rest of Popish Monks and Fryars are in hell for their austerities and penal Works for all that you may very well believe and its the Doctrin of the Reformation that Pennance and Penal Works do auaile for the remission of our sins and are very profitable to the soule for our Common Prayer booke in the Commination against sinners saies thus In the Primitive Church there was a godly Disciplin that at the beginning of Lent such as were notorious Sinners were put to open pennance and punisht in this world that their soules may be saued in the day of the Lord. And our Common Prayer booke wishes that this Disciplin were restored again and Surely it does not wish that Popery were restored therefore it s no Popery to say that Pennance or penal Works do satisfy for our sins in this world and auaile to save vs in the other Ismael I know many of our Congregations mislike much our Common Prayer booke for these Popish Tenets but what do you say of the grand errors of Popery can a man be a true Child of the Reformation and yet believe the Popes Supremacy deny the kings supremacy believe Transubstantiation and Communion in one kind are these