doe not resist although our number be great S. Nazianzene Not though the people be prone to resist you S. Ambrose Not when the people are present and offer a defence S. Augustine yeelding the cause Because Christian subiection is to be performed in loue and not in feare or by constraint A doctrine for those times namely the first 600. yeares in generall vse saith your Bellarmine And continued after Christ the space of 1000 yeares saith your Beâ—â—laâ—â—s neuer changed till the yeare 1060. saith your Tolossanus Friburgens Espencaeus and others And shall we dare to remooue The ancient Land-markes of our forefathers CHAP. XVII Other Proofs of Protestants from Antiquity in two most Christian and potent Nations England and France THat this soueraignity of his Maiesty whereunto notwithstanding all Papall iurisdiction we doe willingly subscribe may be knowen to be as anciently as earnestly challenged I will only point at some few heads of examples of our ancient Christian Kings which Sir Edward Cooke his Maiesties Attorney generall in his alwaies reportable and memorable Reports hath lately published In the raigne of K. Edward the first a Subiect brought in a Bull of excommunication against another Subiect of this realme and published it But it was answered that this was then according to the ancient lawes of England Treason against the King the Offendor had beene drawen and hanged but that by the mercy of the Prince he was only abiured the Realme Compare this Bull which did only push at a Subiect against his benefice with that Bull which more mankeen goareth Kings to giue them their mortall wound At the same time The Pope by his Bull had by way of prouision bestowed a benefice vpon one within the prouince of Yorke the King presented another the Arch-bishop refuseth the Kings presentation and yeelded to the Popes prouision This Arch-bishop then by the common law of the land was depriued of the lands of his whole Bishoprick during life In the raigne of King Edward the third the King presented to a Benefice and his Presentee was disturbed by one who had obtained Buls from Rome for the which cause he was condemned to perpetuall imprisonment Compare this Bull of disturbing onely the Present of Kings with that which doth ordinarily violate the Kings person In the raigne of Richard the second it was declared in the Parliament R. 2. cap. 2. that England had alwaies beene fâ—ce and in subiection to no Realme but immediatly subiect to God and to none other and that the same ought not in any thing touching the regality of the crowne to be submitted to the Bishop of Rome nor the lawes of their Realme by him frustrated at his pleasure Compare this English King immediately not subiect to the Pope and the aboue mentioned Iesuâ—ticall principle All Kings are indirectly subiect to Popes In the raigne of King Henry the fourth it was confirmed that Excommunication made by the Pope is of no force in England Compare this Of no force in England with those excommunications which in these later times haue been made against England In the raigne of King Edward the fourth the opinion of the Kings bench was that whatsoeuer spirituall man should sue another spirituall man in the Court of Rome for a matter spirituall where hee might haue remedy before his Ordinary within the Realme did incurre the danger of premunire being an hainous offence against the honour of the King his crowne and dignity Compare this with their Acts who haue made no other sute at Rome but meanes to dispossesse English Kings of their crowne and dignity Many other examples of like nature I pretermit and remit the Reader desirous to be further satisfied to the booke of Reports Habet enim ille quod det dat nemo largius The conclusion is that that challenge of Soueraigntie which was in opposition to the Popes Buls ancient right and iustice in Kings which were predecessours be not traduced now as an irreligious impiety in the successors The like might be spoken of France but I hasten to the last Argument presuming that my studious Reader perusing the French stories will ease me of that trauell CHAP. XVIII The last Argument of Protestants from Reason IT will be sufficient onely summarily to recapitulate the Arguments dispersed in this former Treatise The first Reason was long since Christened for The Apostles saith your Sanders did chuse rather to suffer euill than to reuenge wherein they were seconded by other heroicall Martyrs of Christ Who thought saith your Tolossanus their faith glorified in this that being persecuted yet they performed obedience Questionlesse they had some reason heereof One is specified by S. Cyprian Christians must be Preachers of the supernaturall vertue patience and not of vengeance Another by S. Augustine that Induring the misery of this life they may auouch their hope of a life eternall And lastly by Arnobius Heereby to make distinction of Christian obedience from that other of Pagans that whereas these yeeld onelie obedience proceeding from feare of man ours should appeare to be from Conscience towards God The second Reason is politicke which is that of your Victoria that the Clergy be members of the common-wealth Ergo they ought to be subiect vnto the state temporall I will adde another of this kind which wee borrowed from your Acosta shewing that licence of deposing Kings is an occasion of much spoiles and bloudshed The third Reason is violent inforcing you by your owne confessions to grant our conclusion your confessions be of two kinds first The Pope hath not temporall Soueraignty ouer Kings directly but onely indirectly in ordine ad bonum spirituale that is as the temporall doth necessarily helpe or aduance the spirituall good of the Church But So you may as well say saith your Carerius that a King hath not iurisdiction temporall but only indirectly because his authority doth intend a spirituall good aâ— namely preseruation of iustice in a common-wealth And he saith truely as may be confirmed by Saint Augustine A king as a man saith he doth serue God by his owne good life as a King by gouerning other mens liues to see that they doe that which is good It is his office not only to ordaine lawes for the preseruation of the politicke peace but also to establish true religion From hence I conclude that if this your distinction be good The Pope hath temporall iurisdiction ouer Kings to depose them indirectly that is as far foorth as may be behooffull for Religion then must you grant that Kings haue iurisdiction temporall onely indirectly because their Office also is ordained of God in ordine ad Deum as a minister of God for defence of his Church If your position be false then hath not your Pope that power ouer Princes no not indirectly The second Confession I take from
pittie and would also seâ—me after a sort to satisfie the lawe The truth then of this exposition as al Orthodoxal Comentaries shew is grounded vpon the direct Scripture the Oracle of truth for in the law Deut. 13. 6. 9. If thy brother c. the summe whereof is repeated in the Text in question vers 13. Whosoeuer will not seeke the Lord God of Israel shall be slaine whether he were small or great man or woman What shall we say then is the Soueraignty of Kings disabled God forbid but it is rather established hereby for the King is made the Deposer yea euen of whosoeuer Now that Commentarie doth not defend deposing a King neither possibly can it be defended by any ordinarie commaund of God in all Scripture which is proued Wherefore supposing that the Relation of the Conference be direct yet may you not thinke that his Maiestie whose iudgement is so diuinely illuminated by the light of the word of God that he neuer refused Conference with the greatest Iesuite or Doctor Romish could take exception to the note as from an offence thereby giuen but onely in suspition an offence taken by weake ones prepossessed with your Romish maladie whereof you haue giuen vs experience in your many controuersies For wheresoeuer in all Scripture almost you feele but any sent of fire O behold this doth Proue Purgatorie fire after death Whereas indeed the context is plaine there is onely signified * Afflictions of this life Where you reade promised Reward for goodworkes there you presently conclude Amerit of Condignitie when as all is the onely iustice of Gods promise and the consequent of the onely grace and mercie of God who giueth to will to worke to perfect and crowneth his gift of grace with the grace of the gift of glorie I may not digresse Here doubtlesse his Maiestie doubted lest some impotent Reader not ignorant of your suggestions vnderstanding a Prince deposed by the King might iustifie your proceedings where so many popishly inspired haue assumed the office of Kings to depose a Prince But know you there is not in any part of our Commentarie vpon the Bible any one sparke whereat any Guido may light his match to giue fire to his powder The last instance for England The moderate Answerer If I had trauelled no further into that doctrine then to the late printed booke by your Maiesties Printer of the late intended Conspiracie I might easily performe a iust defence for the Protestant Author giueth it out as a generall rule and vndoubted Maxime to all Professors of worship to take armes if their Religion be in hazard and that no priuate man should thinke his life more happie then to fight pro Aris. Which is greater libertie then our Aduersarie can find in Catholike Writers so of him attached of Treason and Rebellion The Reply This shoot is but twelue score wide of the marke you ayme at your bent is to defend them who professe it lawfull for Catholikes in the maintenance of Religion to murther Kings and harrow Kingdomes in their opinion hereticall This Author teacheth vs to Fight his owne words pro Aris pro focis pro Patre patriae his Reason Because the indangering of one of these would at once stirre the whole bodie of a Commonwealth not any more as diuided members but as a solid and indiuiduall lumpe What is then the difference he in the whole Treatise teacheth euery priuate man to arme himselfe by all possible meanes but first armed with authoritie of the King and State You teach to fight for Religion violating the obedience of God against your King and kingdome to destroy them The difference may be illustrated by the like A priuate man if without authoritie temporall he kill a murtherer he is a murtherer but authorized by the publike lawe he is now no more priuate but an Officer but the lawles homicide doth best pattern your lawlesse parricide So that there is no more oddes betweene our and your Authors opinion then cum Rege contra Regem to fight with and against the King You can find no more exception in England whither will you now it is but a step to Scotland what see you there CHAP. IIII. The Obiection of the moderate Answerer against the Church of Scotland KNox and Buchanan defended the power of people ouer their King The Reply You might haue added that there was in Scotland an Act of Parliament to call in that Chronicle of Buchanan censuring all such contempts and innouations but it stood your modestie in hand to conceale this lest we might reply vpon your moderation thus That is not to be called the doctrine of Scotland which the general currant of that Church and State in publike Parliament doth condemne such is this seditious doctrine of resisting and deposing Kings a learning substantially popish your Popes being Authors thereof your other Priests of Rome suggestors publikely authorized herein and your traiterous Actors canonized for Saints in the conceit of all Romish And now you may bid great Britaine adiew you may make a short cut into France CHAP V. The Obiections of the moderate Answerer against the Protestants in France both in their Positions and Practises LEt vs come into France The Reply But vpon condition that you will not returne Yet what of Fraunce The moderate Answerer Caluin and Beza and the rest of that holy Synode say that the Kings and Queenes their children posteritie and all Magistrates must be put to death and so euery Protestant must be more then a Pope The Reply Nay God forbid that any should be so great a man in Rebellion as your Popes who haue bene the heads of the greatest tumults in Christendome Caluin and Beza whom you traduce if your moderation will suffer that which iustice doth exact must answer for themselues Caluins iudgement in this case In his booke of Institutions which he framed for instruction of all the Church of Christ touching the case now controuerted he beginneth to consult with God saying The word of God teacheth vs to obey all Princes who are established in their thrones be it by what meanes soeuer yea and though they shall do nothing lesse then the Offices of Kings yet must they be obayed though the King be neuer so wicked and indeed vnworthie of the name of a King yet must subiects acknowledge the image of diuine power in his publike authoritie and therefore must in all temporall duties reuerence and obey him as well as if he were the godliest King in the world To contract his other sentences into a briefe We are instructed saith Caluin by many documents of holy writ neuer to suffer these seditioâ—s coÌ„ceits to possesse our minds as to thinke an euill King must be so dealt withall as he deserueth but we are directly charged to obey the King though he be a sauage Tyrant and neuer so wicked which I therefore often vrge that in such a case it
VIII Instance in Burgundie The moderate Answerer IN Burgundie a like assembly and conuentiâ—le was kept at Cabillion therein was decreed that three worâ—… to be taken out of the world first the Church of Rome secondly â—…le â—…es of auncient houses and thirdly all ciuill policie and gouernment The Reply Were euer any Protestants so fantasticall who were the authors of that decree nay who was your author witnessing that there was any such decree You expresse neither We may not maruell if through the wearinesse of your so long trauell into many countries you fell at length a sleepe and dreamed this idle dreame of three wormes so I had rather thinke then that you dreamed it waking for then should you find a fourth worme worse then all those three euen the worme of conscience which gnaweth euery lying soule The like may I answer for your imagined rebellions In Denmark but that you haue for your witnesse your owne Peter Frarer you might say Frater for who so shall reade his idle pamphlet shall easily perceiue that his inke wherewith he writ was of that coâ—…ound which the Iewes offered our Sauiour vineger and gall There is an established Church of Protestants in Sueueland doe you see no beakons of â—iâ—e there which might portend rebellions CHAP. IX Sweueland obiected by The moderate Answerer FOr Sueueland the Protestants themselues giâ—e also testimonie that the Catholike King thereof was enforced by his rebellious Gospellers to make himselfe a subiect vnto their designements and condescend that no Catholike should beare office in that Kingdome as is witnessed by Cytraeus Chron. Anno 1593. 1594. The Reply The Storie is long but the summe is short that the whole State of Sueueland required that according to the former Parliament of their Kingdome the King should sweare to defend them in their former liberties and especially the fruition of the Religion then professed Doth your Protestant witnesse call them Rebellious Gospellers It was the demaund of an whole State for defence of their countrie priuiledge can any Papist call this rebellious You will be as loth to confesse this as you are prone to forge the other Let vs trauell homeward againe and end there where you began CHAP. X. In the Imperiall State of Germanie particularly obiecting Luther Muntzer The moderate Answerer his first instance against Luther MArtin Luther the prime Protestant of that time said he cared not for Kings so careles he is in this case that he telleth that it is the nature of the Gospel to raise wars seditions that among Christians there is no Magistrate no Superior that it is a thing to be obtained by prayers that countrimen obey not their Princes No lawe or syllable of lawe can be imposed vpon Christians neither by men or Angels there is no hope of remedie except all humane lawes be taken away The Reply Here is your common Linsi-woolsie mixture of truth and falshood but as you would haue vs to confesse a truth so be you willing to acknowledge your Error The truth Luther professed that he did not care for Kings true but in that comparatiue sence which he had learned of our Lord Christ You shall be called before Kings and Rulers for my name sake but feare not man who can kill the bodie but feare God who is able after the bodie is dead to take the soule and cast it into hell fire I say feare him Secondly Luther telleth that it is the nature of the Gospell to raise warres and seditions And doth not the Gospell it selfe tell vs the same likewise Behold I came not to send peace into the world for I will set the father against the sonne and the daughter against the mother c. You cannot be ignorant of the difference of a cause and an occasion a thing considered properly in his owne nature and vnproperly by externall accident Do I shutting the doore breake it because the theefe would not haue broken it except it had bene shut saith Saint Augustine So Luther Because the Gospell is preached the professors thereof are persecuted with the sword is therefore the innocent professor cause of the persecution no but onely an occasion Christ who is in his owne nature * Petra salutis a rocke of saluation to the elect to the reprobate is called a Stone of offence because the godly are by faith edified to life and the wicked by the malice of their hart do spurne against Christ stumble and perish through vnbeleefe The Gospell likewise hath a double sauor vitall and mortall being The sauor of life vnto life to the sanctified by Gods spirit and the sauor of death vnto death to the irrepentant and vnregenerate So then the Gospell is no otherwise seditious then the sweet flower is venimous froÌ„ this the Spider sucketh sweetnesse but through the fierie malignitie changeth it to peyson so that obstinate hearing of grace peace and saluation by his naturall malice resisteth grace with contempt peace with warre and eternall saluation by working bodily destruction The falshood to affirme that Luther did abandon all Magistracie and abhorre all humane lawes is first false for then I should maruell in what commonwealth the doctrine of Luther couldâ—… long breath Secondly false for Luther defendeth Magistracie in his publike bookes Thirdly thrice false for Luther also condemneth the Romish for their contempt of Magistrates His doctrine Though some thinke gouernement of man ouer man to be a tyrannous vsurpation because all men are naturally of like condition yet we that haue the word of God must oppose to this delusion the commandement and ordinance of God who hath put a sword into the hand of the Magistrate whome therefore the Apostle calleth Gods Minister His taxation of the Romish I grieue and blush and grone roses how scornefully our Emperors and Princes of Germanie are abused whom the Pope leadeth and handleth like brute beasts both for spotle and slaughter at his pleasure This Poperie is liuely described by Saint Peter saying that in the latter times Some should despise Rulers by Rulers signifying secular Princes Now the Popish Clergie by their owne authoritie haue exempted themselues from performance of tributes to Princes And the Pope is so farre from acknowledging the Soueraigntie of Princes ouer him that he will scarce admit them sauing your presence to kisse his shâ—oe How like you this doctrine of Luther If well then must you free him from rebellious conceit for he defendeth subiection to Princes if ill then you condemne your self for he renounceth Popish Hierarchie as a rebellious tyrannie The moderate Answerer His second instance against Luther He censured King Henry the eight of England the Princes of the Imperiall Orders the Princes of Germanie to be vnworthie either of obedience from Subiects or life in themselues and giuing the same doome of his naturall Soueraigne George of Saxonie nameth him the Calamitie of his countrie and Tyrant so he
in the words following Turne away from such You should haue had this Reply two moneths ago but that I was to adde another discourse of greater importance which is contained in the third part You see Beloued how vpon all occasions as I am exhorted by the Spirit of God I cease not to instruct you though contrarie minded trying if at anie time God will grant you repentance that you may acknowledge his truth And now the God of truth and life illuminate and sanctifie your hearts in knowledge and obedience of his will to the glorie of his sauing grace in Christ In whom Yours T. M. The first Part of this Reply conteining the Confirmation of the former Discouerie against the friuolous Cauils of the immoderate Answerer CHAP. I. The Discouerie of Romish Positions and Practises rebellious The first Reason THeir generall Assumption whereupon all their rebellious Positions are founded is this that All Protestants are Heretikes and Excommunicate The Answerer A moderate Answer to an iniurious and slanderous Discouerie I answer that this Position of the Discouerer All Protestants in the censure of Catholikes are Heretikes and Excommunicate is no generall assumption in Catholike Religion from whence it will follow that none of our Positions are to be iudged rebellious because he telleth vs that all these are builded vpon this Assumption A faithfull Reply By which answer I am chalenged to a double imployment first to confirme this my former Assumption All Protestants in the common censure of Papists superarrogantly called Catholikes are esteemed as Heretikes and Excommunicate the second to improue this your illation and consequent If we iudge not Protestants Heretikes and excommunicate it will follow that our Positions cannot be proued rebellious Our Assumption you impugne both by ample asseueration and also in your opinion by learned proofes aâ—d demonstrations Your Asseueration followeth The moderate Answerer I suppose that not one particular learned Catholike in this Kingdome yet such can best iudge of our country cause doth or will defend this opinion that Protestants are Heretikes and excommunicate for there is not one Protestant esteemed with vs to be in that case within the dominions of our Soueraigne of condition whatsoeuer in my knowledge The Reply What is this No Papist doth iudge any Protestant an Heretike or excommunicate to your knowledge As though you could instruct vs how to know when you speake from your knowledge knowing that you professe your selfe to be one of that sect who cannot possibly be knowne of vs so long as you lurke in the hole of that Foxe which you call Aequiuocation And surely this your minsing Suppose giueth vs cause to suspect in you some such prodigious conceit whereof hereafter In the instant we may demand why you who fetch all practises and positions as it were Dagges and their cases from beyond the sea shold now stand only to the iudgment of the Papists of This kingdome in this your Countrie case Is the cause of vs Protestants the same and shall we be subiect to contrarie Tribunals Haue you One God in Dan and another in Bethel Not but that we wish that the same sea which seuereth our country Region from Rome might likewise distinguish your Religion But to leaue your Suppose we will examine your proofe CHAP. II. Containing fiue of the Arguments of The moderate Answerer NO man doubting in faith But onely such as be obstinate No ignorant beleeuer or deceiued of Heretikes but he to whom the truth hath bene made knowne None onely internally infected but he that is a manifest professor is subiect to the censure of Excommunication for Heresie But Protestants in our opinion are of these conditions implying that they be doubting and not resolute ignorant of the contrarie Romish faith and not vnderstanding internally infected and not outward Professors of their faith Therefore in our opinion no Heretikes The Reply We may not be ignorant first that seeing the nature of Heresie is such that It is a vice proper to the mind it may denominate the subiect whatsoeuer an Heretike without obstinacie which is onely a peruerse obliquitie of the will and therefore man may be an Heretike though he be not obstinate Secondly because The Church consisting of men doth only iudge of outward actions of men we must consider that there is difference of the iudgement of an Heretike Fori poli namely of man iudging the outward act of God who discerneth the inward thought And may hereupon conclude that There may be an internall Heretike though not manifest vnto the Church But because you do onely vnderstand outward Heretikes subiect to the censure of men I approach to the Question to disable both your Propositions by the generall and ordinarie but in some points new and vnreasonable determinations of your owne schoole By a threefold euidence from a Popish 1. Definition of an Heretike 2. Explication of a person excommunicate 3. Application of Romish censures to them both CHAP. III. Popish definition of an Heretike THat is onely true Religion say your Romish Doctors which is taught in the Romish Church And therefore Whosoeuer maintaineth any doctrine condemned in that Church must be accounted an obstinate Heretike What obstinate It may be some do but doubtingly defend it what will you iudge of these If he doubt thereof willingly he is certainely an Heretike But it may be he is ignorant will no ignorance excuse him Affected ignorance doth argue him an obstinate Heretike Yet it may be he is no principal one to professe the supposed hereticall doctrine but onely to fauour the Doctors or professors thereof Yet then doth the Bull of Excommunication called Bulla Coenae thunder against them and not only them but also all wilfull defenders and fauourers Of which kind all such as Wish to die in their faith Harbour their persons Commend their behauiours Or do either publikely preach or professe their doctrine are to be accounted manifest Heretikes In briefe our countriman vpon this case of conscience An obstinate Heretike is as well he that is presumed so to be as he that is manifest Now let me be beholden vnto you for an Answer whether that all Protestants of all conditions do not renounce your Romish Religion Do not Ministers preach publikely and people also professe the contrarie Doth not the King and whole state enact lawes and Magistrates execute them to ruinate your Babel What sort of people is there in England Recusants excepted which doth not either beleeue the doctrine of Protestants or defend their persons or reade their bookes c. Seeing therfore That as your great Casuist hath said euery one presumed to be an Heretike is taken for an obstinate What one is there among all these kinds who can be free from your censures against Heretikes For when your Leo Pope as Taking eares to be hornes shall iudge
he may iudge depose and kill Herein giuing vs a speciall argument of your singular modestie whereas being ashamed to giue the Pope Direct Soueraigntie ouer Kings haue closely conueyed vnto him the same power by the other tearme called Indirectly It were to be wished you would leaue that subtill modestie and learne honest simplicitie It may be we shall perceiue some dragme thereof in your fourth-ly The moderate Answerer Fourthly the maintainers of this doctrine do not vrge greater indignitie or defend any sentence more offensiue in equall iudgement to any Pralate sheepe or shepheard then to the chiefest Shepheard vnder Christ the Pope himselfe for they all with one consent affirme that in case of heresie now in question he is either actually and really deposed or to be deposed The Canonists do hold that he is ipso facto deposed if he fall into heresie with whom Turrecrem Castrâ— and others do consent The Reply Wherein I dare appeale to any equall or almost any vnequall iudgement of my greatest aduersaries to determine whether this your answer be not absurdly false in two degrees First Those you say who vrge this opinion of deposing Princes in case of heresie offer no more indignitie to any sheepe then to the chiefe shepheard vnder Christ the Pope and yet in the same Chapter I Answer say you if any man hold that opinion of such power ouer Princes in Popes yet they will pleade it more tolerable in the authoritie of one supreme Pastor in the Church whereof Princes be sheepe c. The argument then of these men as you confesse and is hereafter shewed is this As the shepheard to the sheepe so the Pope to Kings but shepheards haue power ouer sheepe and not sheepe ouer shepheards Ergo Popes may depose Princes and Princes may not remoue Popes This is your Popish and as it is after proued your sheepish conclusion wherein whether there be not offered greater indignitie to Princes then to Popes let the equall Reader iudge Secondly the Authors of the doctrine of deposing of Kings in case of heresie do professe concerning Popes That they cannot possibly be Heretikes as Popes and consequently cannot be deposed Not saith Bellarmine by any power whether Ecclesiasticall or temporall no not by all Bishops assembled in a Councell Not though saith Carerius he should do any thing preiudiciall to the vniuersall statâ— of the Church Not though saith Azorius he should neglect the Canons Ecclesiasticall or peruert the lawes of Kings Not though saith your Gratianus Glosse he should carrie infinite multitudes of soules headlong with him into hell And these forenamed Authors do auouch for the confirmation of this doctrine the vniuersall consent of Romish Diuines and Canonists for the space of an hundred yeares Whether therefore to affirme that Kings may be Heretikes and for that cause deposed and that Popes cannot be deposed because as Popes they cannot be Heretikes be equall indignitie to Popes and Kings let if you will your vnequall Reader iudge And now not to stand vpon other transparent absurdities of these Authors your modestie is to be put in mind not to appeale vnto equall iudgement in that wherein you manifest your totall eclypse of iudgement Hitherto haue we disputed of the power of people and of the Pope considered as it were intensiuely Now we approach to examine both of them in their extent and execution CHAP. XIII The Discouerie in the third Reason WHosoeuer vpon any pretended supremacie whether of Pope or people do denie the necessarie right of Election or of succession of Protestant Princes are to be holden amongst all Protestants seditious But all Popish Priests do vtterly abolish the title of Succession in all Protestant Princes by pretended prerogatiue of Pope and people Ergo The Minor proued by their Positions In Election 1. The Romish Cardinall There is no election whether of King or Emperor of any force if he that is elect such as they esteeme all Protestants be excommunicate In Succession Reinalds The right of Kings Christian must depend rather vpon their Religion then vpon order of Succession and therefore all Christians are bound to cut off all hope lest that any such speaking of Protestants may aspire to the throne Otherwise saith Stapleton what do people else but euen preferre man before God Hereupon doth Simancha conclude that The Kingdome of an Heretike departed doth lineally descend vpon his sonne but if the sonne in the race Royall be hereticall the Catholike Common-weale may chuse him a Prince but if also the Kingdome be hereticall then the choice of the King belongeth to the Pope and so the Kingdome may be taken by Catholikes And lest peraduenture any should consent to the lawfull Succession father Parsons doth pronounce sentence Whosoeuer shall consent to the succession of a Protestant is a most grieâ—ous and damnable sinner Thus farre of the Position Now behold their Practise 1. In France Reinalds doth forewarne the French Will you proclaime Nauarre a Caluinist King of Fraunce What is this else then to aduance a dogge to be Soueraigne ouer men Shall Catholikes pray God saue that King whom they may not admit into their houses For suppose saith Father Creswell that he professe to bring in a more sound Religion what is this to the purpose he is bound to defend the Romish faith From France we will returne home where father Parsons busieth himselfe to disable the title of Succession of our most dread Soueraigne King Iames with intent to aduance the Infanta of Spaine thereunto Thus much of Successors now of Possessors The moderate Answerer Let all be true which he citeth and that they so teach yet if fiue particular men could make a generall Councell and their sentence be tearmed a publike Position yet they speake onely of a Prince excommunicate before his Election which case is not now in rerum natura much lesse in England as this vniust Accuser would proue The Reply Vniust not so your selfe will acquit me I haue instanced in sixe of your Priests and Iesuites whereof foure be our owne countrimen and therefore by your owne iudgement Best able to iudge of our country cause And you answer Let all be true which he citeth when you could not answer that one testimonie was vntrue Secondly you start backe If say you fiue particular men could make a Councell or their sentences be tearmed a publike Position as if we may not rather vnderstand your publike Positions by these fiue your best learned Clearkes then by onely you who by that your Yet if would onely seeme to take exception vnto fiue and bring instance to the contrarie from none In all which you testifie that I am not an vniust Accuser but that you are now an idle Disputer But if these fiue should be thought priuate whose bookes are priuiledged with the most publike and ordinarie approbation of your Church I could
adde fiue score moe of your side conspiring in these Positions belonging to conspiracie Thirdly They speake say you of a Prince excommunicate which is not our English case at this present Good Now at this present namely when you writ and yet peraduenture whilest I replie the case is presently altered or at the Popes pleasure may be And is not this a safe case for our Soueraigne trow ye Wherof more in the next Section The most moderate Answerer His Maiestie was not excommunicate before his Election neither is he now but is both elected and setled in his throne both without any contradiction of the Pope and with his Iubet of all obedience and Prohibet of deniall thereof All the Catholikes of this Kingdome applauded it as much as Protestants and his vnion and league with Catholike Princes and people abroad is sufficient Answer that this is a malitious slaunder of holy Priesthood and proueth Catholikes innocent Protestants guiltie and this man an vniust Accuser The Reply If his Maiestie was not excommunicate by the Pope before his Election which you should rather call Succession then was he vniustly that I may so say excommuned by the Pope before his Election but your Superior Garnet confessed that he had receiued two Breues from the Pope to make vse of whensoeuer our late Queene Elizabeth should depart out of this mortalitie The content of those Breues was this that None should be acknowledged King of England but such as was a professed and resolute Catholike Nulli quantâcunque sanguinis propinquitate nitantur that is No other though neuer so nigh in bloud Which Breues he perceiuing the generall applause of people yeelding to the right of Succession according to nearenesse in bloud burnt Thus we see if the Popes power had not bene disappointed by want of force his Maiesty though nearest in bloud might not haue entred but with bloud Now therefore what a case am I in If I shall denie my fonner assertion then your superior Priest Garnet will accuse me for a liar for his Maiesties case was not different from others seeing The Pope gaue contradiction to his succession if I still defend it then your Priestship doth accuse me for a Slanderer of holy Priesthood The very moderate Answerer Because the Pope gaue a Iubet of all obedience and prohibet restraint of disobedience The Reply Yea Iubet of obedience Iubet what is that Euery child can expound it literally to signifie To commaund but by Popish Glosse may happily signifie to forbid for we must not be ignorant of your like glozing in the publike Decrees of Popes Whereas your Canon is Statuimus We decree that is saith your Expositor We abrogate or disallow Is it not as easie for you to turne Iubet to an id est prohibet Howsoeuer we perceiue your subiection stands still vpon the Popes Iubet that as it is recorded of the French If he shall commaund to kill the King you must be his subiects Lastly there is but one of these Authors aboue mentioned who speaketh expresly of the excommunicate and there is not one of them but iudgeth a publike professed Protestant in the state of an Excommunicate To conclude therefore be you admonished not to preiudice your modestie so much as to taxe any for an Vniust Accuser against whom you can shew no iust exception Yet there remaineth two other mysteries to be vnfolded the first is yours the second is your Superiors CHAP. XIIII The new deuice of our moderate Answerer TThere is at this present a great difference betweene the Emperor who is created by the Popes lawes and with his solemnities from whence he receiueth his sword and a King that is absolute and not so created or depending for power or iurisdiction such as our Soueraigne in England for the Emperor is the Popes Minister as saith Molina The Reply We might peraduenture be beholden vnto you for this distinction if we could presume you knew what you said being guiltie herein of a double falshood first to thinke That the Emperor hath no power but from the Pope the second to say you thinke That other Kings haue not any power which is not from the Pope The former is confuted hereafter the other now in this place For your Carerius making vnction by Romish Bishops in Coronation of Kings to be essentiall to royaltie without which they be no Kings saith That this is a doctrine most commonly knowne of all that the Kings of France England Scotland c. were neuer esteemed Kings before their Vnction No more saith your Parsons in the rigor of iustice before Popish Coronation then the Maior of London can be called Maior before his oath Which Vnction whosoeuer shall refuse saith Reinalds can haue no right to gouerne Christians annointed in Baptisme In briefe None is lawfull King or Queene of England saith your Cardinall without the approbation of the See Apostolike All grosly false for first In France saith your Barclay Kings who are to succeed by inheritance are iudged as consecrate and inaugurate before they be solemnely annointed And shall we thinke the French Kings to exceed our English herei◠No I haue heard Lawyers say The King of England neuer dyeth I thinke they speake not without booke otherwise Q. Mary could neuer haue iustified her act when she beheaded the Duke of Northumberland some moneths before her Coronation for high treason against her royall person I returne to your argument If the Emperor saith your Carerius who is held more eminent at least in dignitie then any King may be reiected by the Popes then much more other Kings may be punished by the Popes authoritie For he that can tame an Eagle may much more command Hawkes Here we obserue your spirits of contradiction you from comparison of disparitie betweene the Emperor and other Kings would seeme to free Kings and inthral the Emperor your Doctor Carerius from the contrarie disparitie would bring all Kings into subiection But know that howsoeuer now the Eagle be entangled whom you esteeme no better then the Popes vassall yet Non facile Accipitri rete sternitur And that neither Emperor nor King are lawfully subiect to this yoke is afterward made manifest A second new deuice His Maistie is not in the case of Excommunication as other relapsed Protestants because he was borne in that faith which he professeth The Reply And yet the now Henry 4. King of France sucking Protestants doctrine from his nurce was excluded from his birth-right of the Crowne till he was reconciled vnto the Pope And this same father Garnet had a Breue from the Pope to barre our Soueraigne from Succession except he should be found absolutely a Romish Catholike If then the Borne Protestants be free from Excommunication why did the Pope exclude the King of France or by his Breue to you except against the King of England If the case be otherwise
Queene to depose her as the Priests did Athalia violence Your Reinolds Reuenge and roote out as Iudith did Holofernes violence Your Costerus As an heardsman his cattell violence Your Bellarmine It is not lawfull to suffer a King hereticall but to expell him as the shepheard doth a Wolfe violence Your Creswell Subiects ought to expulse such a King out of his dominion violence Your Simancha As the Scythians who murthered their King violence Your Bannes The English ought to depose their Queene by force all which is violence We hanc also alledged exāples of many Popes who vsed all open violence To which might be added Azorius Salmeron Bristow Stapleton and others all crying Adarma And yet you say Not one What impudent modestie is this to denie before the Reader that which none who readeth can denie idlely conceiting a power to depose without violence in your opinions Heretikes obstinate that is such as cannot be deposed without violence Your comparison of the Emperor with our King is but a shadow which vanisheth in this Treatise following CHAP. XIX The Discouerie Let vs now see this family of Corah WE will omit Henries Frederickes Othoes and like Emperors and Kings of former times call but to mind that which hath bene visible in our dayes the late Henry of Fraunce concerning whom their owne Prophet hath published a Treatise the scope thereof is this The French haue with good conscience borne armes against K. Henry the third and depriued him of his Crowne Returne home there we see a Comet The Rebell Oneale is vp in armes against his Queene the Colledge of Salamane bring pitch to quench this flame and resolue thus Whatsoeuer Catholikes shall not for sake the defence of the English and follow Oneale doth sinne mortally and cannot obtaine life euerlasting except he desist Shall we thinke that other Priests can haue more loyall spirits Impossible as long as they receiue their breath from that Maister who commendeth the former Positions against the foresaid King of Fraunce Those Diuines saith Pope Xistus haue done the parts of good Lawyers Confessors and Doctors His Successor this rancor growing by Succession inueterate Pope Pius against our late Soueraigne We will and command the Subiects of England to take armes against Elizabeth their Queene The moderate Answerer Now let vs heare this the supposed publike practise in this point I answer he alledgeth three authorities onely of priuate men which do not pronounce the iudgement to be publike The Reply You contest for all Catholikes and teach vs to answer that this your Answer is but the writing of a priuate man but you haue publike approbation from your Superior they frō many are publikely authorized And yet againe remember your selfe Not aboue foure or fiue examples say you can be giuen in the whole Christian world for the space of 1500. yeares of Popes of Rome who haue translated titles to depose Princes Well then you grant fiue your Bellarmine doth vrge Seuen as from publike Records a notable contradiction You But foure or fiue willing to substract as one ashamed of the number of your Fathers of Rebellions but he alledgeth Seauen or eight desirous to multiply to make the pride of Romish Prelacie more glorious Whether But seauen or But foure what can this auaile for answer As much as a fellon accustomed to steale he careth not how many horses yet indited for seauen shall answer I had but foure or fiue which commendeth the want of that he would not his will to want Pope Paulus teruus did excommunicate Henry the 8. King of England commaunding his Nobles to beare armes against him Your Pope Pius Quintus now alledged Did excommunicate Queene Elizabeth dissoluing all her subiects from their obedience And yet he that is The King of Kings maintained their Scepters not to suffer them to be deposed by those Popes notwithstanding their good wils were manifested by their acts their acts condemned by the euents which examples none can denie but were publike You further adde The moderate Answerer But his Maiesties case is different except this Discouerer will inrolle him in the number of Excommunicate which is most iniurious to his Highnesse for who seeth not that the Queene was Excommunicate The Reply Why iniurious what euill can ensue for you seeme by this Answer to portend some mischiefe if it should happen his Maiestie should be excommunicate say what euill is it spirituall as onely to be excommunicate by the Pope Why this is nothing because your Tolet saith truly An vniust Excommunication such as we know the Popish is doth not endanger the soule Is it bodily belike his Maiestie shall find you a good Subiect howsoeuer your spirituall being accompanied with violence in this his different case you teach his highnesse to prouide a corporall preuention lest as in the defect of our lawe sometime it happened that a man might haue bene out-lawed and not haue knowne of it and so subiected to the extremitie of that lawe your Excommunication of Bulla Coenae vpon your Maundie Thursday by some Guido be closely executed before his Maiestie be aware CHAP. XX. The Discouerie HItherto hath bene manifested only their violence against the dignitie of Princes now heare of the violating of their sacred persons in conspiring their deaths The sixt Reason Whosoeuer doth intend designe or practise the murther of Princes must necessarily be holden for desperate Traitors But all Popish Priests are guiltie in some of these kinds Ergo. The Minor proued by their Positions They professe all that it is lawfull to take armes against their Kings as we haue proued from whence we may argue against them as he against a seditious one Quis sensus armorum what other meaning can armes haue but onely bloud But not to dispute from our suppositions but their Positions by these degrees First the french defence saith that Anie man may lawfullie murther Tyrant which I defend saith he by common consent Now It is euident saith our Reinolds That euerie Heretike Prince is most proper lie and perfectlie a Tyrant which is supposed by the Spanish Iesuite speaking of this point That if saith he they may be bereaued of their liues then much more of their liuings and Crownes And which is the height of furie Hereticall Kings saith Simancha deserue more grieuous punishment then priuate men therefore the Scythians as he well deserued did put to death their King Scylen for violating their Bacchanals Scythia a most barbarous Nation is the fittest glasse that these Priests can finde to looke their faces in Well shew vs then your Scythian and heathenish practises But first let vs heare your answere to these positions The very moderate Answerer I answere that the late Lord Treasurer was thought in his dayes a man not second to manie in politicall wisedome And yet he telleth vs in
is this There is a Canon contrarie to them that shall say Priests may take armes Ergo Priests haue no Positions contrarie to the Canon or else is not your Order freed from all iealousie in this point It will be therefore first materiall to shew the doctrine of your Priests concerning this militarie discipline of Priests Was not the Iesuite and Author of the Booke De iusta Abdicat a Priest and yet he admonisheth Priests to be the first of them that forsake the Oppressor of Religion imitating Elias zeale when he killed the false Prophets Was not your Reinolds a Priest and yet he would perswade That holymen euen Priests may resist by force Kings oppressing Religion whensoeuer oportunitie will serue and that dying in such a quarrell they are not to be accompted Traitors but Martyrs not deseruing punishment of God herein but as the souldiers of Christ an eternall reward in heauen Adding further As the Priests of Greece resisting their Emperours * A presumption absolutely false by force of armes thought it not a sinne of treason but rather iudged it an hainous crime not to resist Your Cardinall Allane was a Priest and yet he wickedly and falsely defendeth that The auncient Bishops might haue excommunicated Arian Emperours and haue defended themselues against them by force but they did not saith he by reason of the greater forces of the Persecutors This Answer he calleth A true and modest defence of English Cathotholikes which in his Admonitionâ—e â—e indeuoureth to proue from the example of Gods Priest Against Athalia And againe in behalfe of the Pope whome you esteeme as High Priest he saith In truth if it be lawfull for the Pope to occupie his forces which God hath giuen him against the Heathen much more may he employ them against those whom he accompteth Rebels against the Catholike Church which be properly vnder his correction Yet all this is nothing to the resolution of your Sanders a Priest also It belongeth vnto Bishops saith he both to pronounce the King an Heretike and the Subiects freed from their obedience ought to indeuour to place another instantly in his throne but if the Subiects shall faile in this their dutie then it is the office of Pastors Priests to prouide Kings must looke to the Priests mixed Chalices perfumed gloues priuie sheaths by what means soeuer that such a King raigne not in the Church of God Againe who was it that would haue killed the now King of Fraunce with a knife was he not a Nouice deuoted to be a Priest And he that killed your last King Henry the third I meane your Monke Clemens had he no affinitie with a Priest Such an one was that Monke who poisoned Iohn King of England And who I pray you did commend and magnifie that your Clemens his desperate exploite You know who Pope Xistus Quintus your high Priest A fact also highly commended by your French Iesuite sure one of your Priesthood saying That he is worthie to bee esteemed another Ahod who killed Aeglon the Moabite yea more forcible then Ahod for he the Monke stabbed the King through the guttes so that we need not now to wonder at former histories where we reade how Iudith killed Holofernes Dauid Goliah Samson a thousand men with the iawbone of an Asse this act is farre more maruellous These be thy Priests O Babylon who boasting falsely of a real vnbloudie sacrifice of Christ to be offered to God Now in later times by rebellions haue offered sacrifice to their Moloch the man of Rome in bloud Secondly to this your consequent Therefore all of this Order are absolutely freed from iealousie of Rebellion As though in warre onely the fighâ—ing souldiers were enemies doth not Reason in the Apologue teach you the contrarie For there The Trumpeter that gaue the Alarme to excite men to warre was taken of his enemies and to free himselfe O good Sirs saith he kill not me for I would neuer haue slaine any of you alas you see I haue no weapon the onely instrument I possesse is this trumpet to whome they answered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 therefore thou shalt rather die because when thou canst not fight thy selfe yet doest thou incite and encourage others to fight Your Order will make the morall for in Fraunce your Reinolds did sound his trumpet for the battell thus All that we haue spoken are to this end to perswade Generals Captaines and all Ecclesiasticall men who follow the battell that these are the warres of the Lord. Hearken another trumpet sounding so loude that it is heard from Rome into Ireland the Pope a Priest Promising his blessing to Tyrone and all his adherents who should fight for the Catholike cause against their Queene And another in the same Ireland of the Colledge of Priests in Salamane resounding Benediction of the same Pope to encourage the Oâ—eale in the same warres Listen yet againe and you shall heare another terrible sound in England for the ioyning with the Spanish Armado in that their expected inuasion Anno 1588. Cardinall Allane a Priest Now therefore Lords Nobles and deare Countrimen for the honor of Knighthood fight And lest we should be too deafe in sense not to heare or dull in heart not to beleeue that Priests secular were interested in these affaires Parsons a Priest doth proclaime against the Seculars who would seeme herein to be onely excusable saying Was not Doctor Storie Doctor Lewis secular Doctors who are knowne principally to haue furthered the action of Sir Thomas Stukeslâ—y for Ireland were not Ballard Gifford and Gartly secular Priests And of all Priests in generall This holy sedition if you call it so which is to send warre into the world I confesse our Priests do and will teach These are the phrases of Baals Priests except it be that those launced themselues these let others bloud These are their alarmes against Protestants neither can we reade of any one of note among them who by publike writing did euer sound a retraite A question materiall for if Popes were not pleased with all these abouenamed Positions and practises shew vs where euer he did condemne seditious Priests Can you then apply the sentence of holy Ambrose to this order Is this to pray for vs and not to prey altogether vpon vs Wherein also I cannot but maruell at your modestie who bring in an old Canon teaching not to fight to the end you may cloake their shame who openly professe they must fight which is to couer a bald head with a Chrystall glasse There is yet another point you would satisfie The moderate Answerer Lastly he addeth the late vnhappie Stratageme and conspiracie against the house of Parliament but I trust that all Priests will be innocent in so vile a practise against our present Soueraigne The Reply If as S. Gregorie calling the first transgression of mankind foelix facinus an happy
the Hebrewes of old what nation could haue resisted thew force Although these glorious Martyrs of the mother Church in their death whereby they haue anouched that good and glorious profession of Christian faith haue thereby also sealed the infallible truth of Christian obedience due to earthly Potentates yet will we not be content with these two hundred yeares but challenge the currant and successiue practise of 4000. more We therefore come to CHAP. IX The same duty of Subiection proued in the next 400. yeares FIrst Tertullian in his Apologie in defence of Christian loyalty God forbid saith he that Christian professours should reuenge themselues with humane power or feare that touch of persecution whereby they are tried for if we would either seeke secret reuenge or vse open hostility can you imagine we could want sufficient force we are visibly knowen vnto you and are interested in all your affaires your Cities Iles Forts Borrowes Tents Tribes Decuries Senate Maâ—kets are all full of Christians except only your temples Now what warre are not we ready and sit for who being in power moe yet do willingly suffer death if by this profession it were not more lawfull to be killed than to kill Heerein you who boast often of yours as great multitudes in England as there were locusts in Aegypt able to do mischiefe if you would and professing also to be willing as soone as you are able Compare but your God speed with Tertullian his God forbid and then you shall see that God cannot be said to be otherwise in your Popes Buls to kings than he was in Aarons calfe for in both there is a sinne of rebellion against Gods ordinance The second is Cyprian he likewise penneth an Apology and directeth it to Demetrianus the Officer of the persecuting Emperour answering in behalfe of all the Christians of his time None of vâ—when he is apprehended doth resist or reuenge himselfe of your vniust violence although the number of our people be maruellous great for our certaine confidence we haue in him that will take vengeance of all transgressours doth confirme our patience Whereby you are taught not to glory of patience who if you had force would banish obedience The third is Athanasius writing an Apologie for himselfe to Constantius an Arian Emperor and therfore hereticall to free himselfe of a slanderous imputation which was that he had suggested some matter to the Emperour Constance a Catholicke thereby to kindle coales of dissention betwixt Brethren therefore he saith I call God to record vpon my soule and your Brother Constance could witnesse that I neuer spake word of you in euill part I was not so madde as to forget the commandement of God who saith Thou shall not speake euill of thy King no not in thy hart but did obey your command when I had charge to depart from Alexandria The summe is this When he had power to stirre the Emperour Constance a true professor against his brother Constantius an hereticke yet he made conscience not to raise rebellion but rather submitted himselfe to the violence of persecution If your Pope had beene truly catechized in this Creed of Athanasius belonging to the truth of faithfull allegeance he would not so oft haue raised King against King as your selues confessed And why then may not hee be that man prophecied of Sitting on a red horse and hauing power permissiuely giuen vnto him to take peace from the earth and that they should kill one another The fourth is Gregory Nazianzene in his Oration against the Emperour Iulian who the very hinge of this cause had beene a Christian and did after Apostate and proue an Infidell saith Against whom of you did wee euer raise any insurrection or sedition among your people though otherwise of themselues prone to rebellion or whose death did wee euer conspire But you lately whose deaths haue you not conspired The fifth is Ambrose When the Emperour infected with the heresie of Arius had sent magistrates to remoue Ambrose from his Bishopricke and the people thronged to rescew him In such power saith Ambrose that the Officers could not resist their force I quieted the people and yet could not auoid their malice Then sure he did abhorre by raising sedition among the people to prouoke magistrates to malice The same Father vpon that penitentiall dumpe of holy Dauid to thee only haue I sinned proueth that some Kings are not subiect to any penall law of man And for S. Ambrose his actiue profession in this kind it is confessed by your owne Doctor saying that Saint Ambrose when he was sufficiently armed both by power of people and souldiers strengthened with the might of Christ yet would not defend his Church with violence against the fury of the hereticall Emperor The sixth is Basill Who by reason of the strength of the forts wherein he was needed not to feare any danger yet suppliantly offered himselfe to Iulian the Apostate and caused the gates of the city to be opened vnto him thereby to appease his wrath against Christians The seuenth is S. Augustine who in his expositioÌ„s of some proposition doth concerning this point giue this instruction Whereas the Apostle saith he exhorteth that we should not resist gouernors in temporall matters he saith It is necessary that we be subiect and lest any might not performe this in loue but as from constraint and necessity he addeth Not for feare of wrath but for conscience sake that is not dissemblingly but dutifully in good conscience and loue to him God who commandeth subiection and as in another place he exhorteth Seruants Obey your hard and iniurious masters but not with ey-seruice as only pleasing men but God Therefore you must not plead Your most humble subiect aboue ground and from the concaue and vautes of the earth seeke how to humble your soueraigne Forey seruice and hart-seruice do distinguish a Christian from a Pagan according to that of Arnobius You Pagans do feare onely the outward sight of men we only the inward conscience of our mind The eight is Pope Leo writing to a true Catholicke Emperour You may not be ignorant saith he that your Princely power is giuen vnto you not only in worldly regiment but also Spirituall for the preseruation of the Church As if hee had said Not only in causes temporall but also inspirituall so far as it belongeth to outward preseruation not to the personall administration of them And this is the substance of our English oath and further neither do our Kings of England challenge nor subiects condiscend vnto We are not yet passed the lists of 500. yeares The last is Pope Gregory in his Epistle to Mauritius a right Christian Emperour To this end saith he is power ouer all persons giuen from heauen vnto my Lord that good men may be helped in the way to the kingdome of heauen And again In those gratious commands of your
what Quacksaluers be you to offer a salue which cannot possibly cure the sore I haue digressed a little but I hope not transgressed for this point was you see pertinent I returne to you our moderate Answerer and we will now ioyne issue in the next Reason CHAP. XV. The Discouerie in the fourth Reason WHen the King is established in his throne by the common consent of the Kingdome whosoeuer shall manackle the hands of his subiects detracting all obedience may iustly by order of lawe be challenged and condemned for a disordred and rebellious person But all popish priests do dissolue the oath of obedience to all Protestant Gouernors Ergo. The Minor proued by Their Positions First one of their Bishops resolueth that As soone as a Christian King becomes hereticall forthwith people are freed from subiection Secondly their Cardinall As long as the Prince continueth excommunicate the subiect is freed from the oath of subiection By whom are they freed By the Pope saith the lesuit who vpon iust cause hath iust power to absolue from oathes both himselfe and all others Sometime the Prince is personallie excommunicate what then Then saith their Lawyer Subiects are freed from their allegiance and all his hereticall Assistants to be rooted out and their land to be exposed to be possessed of Strangers Catholikes But how if he be not excommunicate by name yea what though not excommunicate If saith an other his heresie be publikely knowne there needeth no pronunciation of the sentence of Excommunication So that saith the Iesuite Subiects may lawfullie denie him obedience How so For the euidence of the crime saith their whole schoole doth inferre a sentence of condemnation because as the more common opinion defineth there must we vnderstand the Pope his will is to haue him excommunicate whom vpon the knowledâ—e of his fault he would excommunicate Say Father Creswell is this true It is certaine and of faith auouched by the vniuersall voice of Schooles Satisfie vs yet in one question more Suppose that the Protestant Prince haue a iust quarrell what then No warre can be lawfullie denounced or waged by the Queene being excommunicate by name though otherwise in it seâ—fe it were most iust because her power is vnlawfull The very moderate Answerer This is the first Proposition I grant vnto but how false and standerous his Assumption is I haue proued before Secondly all his Autorities he bringeth are priuate men not able to make a dogmaticall principle or publike position againe they intreate of such as be nominatim excommunicate of which sort there is no Protestant Prince neither can there be any iust feare of the Popes generall proceeding herein except any Protestant Prince should be incited by some such vnchristian spirits as this Discouerer seemeth to be possessed with to exceede all others in persecuting Catholikes and offering indignities to the Church of God The Reply It seemeth you were now in your naturall choller because in this one Answere you do vilifie your friends threaten your Soueraigne traduce your Aduersarie and in conclusion condemne your owne ghostlie fathers Your friends to call these your Doctors Cardinall Tollet Reinolds Symancha Creswell Stapleton Azorius Panormitan Greg of Valentia Bannes and such like and the most of them most publike and eminent Doctors your late Romish Church did glorie in and autorized with the common consent of Ordinaries priuileges of Collegies and your vniuersall schoole to call I say such like priuate men and not be able to oppose one priuate man of that sect against them doth argue a spirit of rare modestie and singular insufficiencie Your Soueraigne If he shall offer as you misconster it to persecute and to cut off the most capitall enemies to his state and gangrenes of their countrey then The Pope c. O sir â—emember your selfe One of his Maiesties loyall Subiects c. This is not modestie but hypocrisie Your Aduersarie The Discouerer forsooth an vnchristian spirit who doth discouer only the hooke of treason whereby sillie soules are catched and herein not chargeable with misieporting his Autors desirous to recall you to the ancient truth of Christian subiection and if it be possible to sauing health And yet is thus censured as an inciter of his Maiestie against Romish Priests whom their owne positions and practises do proclaime publikely to be persons seditious Your Fathers for this proposition Whosoeuer shall manacle the hands of Subiects denying obedience to their established Kings must be iudged a rebellious person you say you Grant now it hath bene proued that not only these aboue named Iesuites but also your Popes haue bene principals in these kinds of Treasons both against the Emperour Henry the fourth and also the mirror of all princely wisedome Elizabeth our late Soueraigne And therefore in your conclusion you infold your Popes in the roote of these rebellions These Popes we haue discouered by their practises as for example CHAP. XVI The Discouerer in the Practise FIrst Pope Gregorie the seauenth alias Hildebrand beginneth his pageant We by Apostolicall autoritie do absolâ—e all from their oathes which they haue giuen to persons excommunicate And another Gregorie vseth the like tenor We absolue c. in the same case Lastly Pius Quintus their successor in place but superior in malice We command all Subiects saith he c. and absolue them from the faith they haue plight with Elizabeth their Queene The moderate Answerer First to Gregorie the seauenth who as this man vrgeth absolued all from obedience to Excommunicates I answere for all Catholikes in generall that this nothing concerned Protestants neither any heretikes but only such as he had other quarrels and contentions against The Reply True the histories of those times shew that the Popes were after some 600. yeares after Christ alwayes quarrellous and according to that proper name of Gregory the seauenth now mentioned called Hildebrand the very firebrands of Christendome But how do you satisfie for Hildebrand I grant say you that he that dissolueth the obedience of Subiects to their Soueraignes is iustlie accompted seditious Here you cannot denie but that Pope Gregorie the seauenth absolued all from obedience to excommunicates You know what followeth Ergo the Pope is condemned as one guiltie of high treason This is commendable modestie which is voide of partialitie To the second example you answere The moderate Answere But he vrgeth the Glosse of Gregorie the ninth and citeth the Decret where there is no such matter or any thing like vnto it I commend your diligence and wish you were as modest to acknowledge all my other truths as I am to confesse this my only escape which the importunitie of the time and not the exigence of examples did occasion For besides other examples I might haue insisted vpon that Bull of Paulus the 3. against King Henry the 8. which differeth not from the tenor of the decree alledged Wee
commaund the Nobles of England by force of armes to expell Henry the 8. out of that Kingdome This then was an error of mistaking my Autor not by â—eigning of false matter which is proued by so many witnesses But I thanke you for your taxation of this default trusting that your modestie will condescend to that point of lawe He that excepteth in some doth yeeld to the rest The moderate Answerer Lastlie he bringeth in the Bull of Pius Quintus against Queene Elizabeth but I answere that many graue and learned men haue thought the information of the case of Queene Elizabeth to the See Apostolike whereupon the censure of Excommunication was awarded against her to haue bene vntrue and Pius Quintus an holie man himselfe after bewailed the proceedings vpon such suggestion The Reply In this Answere I confesse you shew some arte as namely to deplore the state past that you may more easily delude the present Touching the first Say was the information against the Queene vntrue and did Graue men so iudge of it Take heed what you say This answere will more preiudice the two principall prerogatiues of that your Romish See then you are aware of as namely the power of canonizing Saints and excommunicating of Princely sinners which both are cases reserued as proper to the Pope and both proceeding as you say from the fulnesse of Apostolike authoritie The truth of canonizing Saints as for example Thomas Becket dependeth vpon true information so by your owne confession the truth of excommunication as of Queene Elizabeth must relie vpon a iust suggestion Now then did your Pope Pius erre in excommunicating and so in condemning an innocent and might he not likewise erre in canonizing an Offendor The second prerogatiue which that See doth challenge is Appeales to Rome but seeing a lying fame like a rowled snowball the further it moueth the more increaseth in her falshood we must learne wisedome from that ancient Councell of Carthage whereunto Saint Augustine did subscribe which thought it necessarie for feare of false information to haue all causes iudged in their owne Countries and therefore did expreslie decree against the See of Rome that none should make appeale beyond the Sea But because this practise of Pius in excommunicating our late gracious Soueraigne doth liuely exemplifie all popish positions in our late Discouerie we must desire your patience to be informed in the true circumstances which concerne this excommunication not by the witnesse of your imagined Graue men who if they euer were yet now happilie be dead in their graues but by those monuments which make the acts of dead men immortall such as the tenor of the Bull of Pius doth purport Pius c. Ad perpetuam rei memoriam The Bull of PIVS QVINTVS with the principall circumstances and interpretation thereof written by Petrus Mathaeus and dedicated to Sixtus Quintus then Pope The Bull. BEcause the Queene of England hath filled her Countrie with Heretikes oppressing the Catholikes translating the Byshopricks of Catholike Prelates vpon Heretikes not acknowledging the Iurisdiction of the Church of Rome but making her selfe head in all causes within her Dominions Wee from the fulnesse of our Apostolicall power doe pronounce Elizabeth an Hereticall Queene and a fauourer of Heretikes and denounce Anathema to all that shall adheere vnto her and also depriue her of all rule and dignitie Absoluing all the subiects of the land of what condition soeuer from the oath of their Subiection and from all manner of obedience This is the summe of the Bull of Excommunication Now heare The Interpretation thereof This Bull after the death of Pius Quintus was confirmed by his Successor which the Heretikes themselues doubting the danger of the euent did labour as it is said secretly by great men to haue this sentence of Excommunication repealed But all in vaine The Queene was and is an Heretike By this Bull and interpretation thereof your whole moderate Answer is conuinced of extreme impudencie First No Protestants are by any Catholikes accounted Heretikes yet heere he whom you named the chiefe Shepheard hath named our Queene and her Subiects sixe times Heretikes We dispute of Buls and Buls haue hornes I must therefore encounter you with a Dilemma which the Logitians call an Horned argument thus If that no Catholikes can call Protestants Heretikes then was not Pius Quintus and his Successor both Bishops of Rome Catholikes who haue numbred Protestants in the catalogue of Heretikes If Protestants be to be iudged Heretikes then this your Answere is blasted Protestants are no Heretikes You are then in these straites either to recant your Answere or to renounce your ghostly father Secondly the horned syllogisme doth assault you the second time thus If the excommunication of our Queene by your Pius was iust why was it Bewayled If it were vniust why was it not repealed This is a second straite either to confesse your Answere to haue bene inconsiderate or else your Popes Bull to haue runne mad and so it did for To condemne the innocent and iustifie the vngodly both are abhominable to the Lord. Thirdly the horned Argument doth againe tume vpon you thus Either you Priests will take an oath of constant obedience without the Popes arbitrary pleasure or you will not If so then the pretended power Papall indirectly ouer Kings must be directly renounced If not then for me to affirme that Euery Priest Romish doth denie the oath of obedience is no Slander This is an other straite and doth constraine you to acquit me as no slanderer or else to confesse your Pope an vsurper Lastly your Pope Pius did Bewaile the proceedings of that Bull and so we verily thinke but so as your Guido Faux immediatly after his apprehension sorrowed for the proceeding of his stratageme namely Because it did not proceed For as your Interpreter complaineth The Queene after that time did more grieuously afflict the Romish Wherefore we wish the Article verified of your excommunicating Bulles which is vulgarly common in the like kind viz. To haue alwaies short â—ornes This of the acts past CHAP. XVII Concerning the State present The moderate Answerer IF the case was such betwixt the Popes and deceased Princes yet I cannot conceiue how any equall minded Protestant can thinke that the Pope so strictly commanding obedience of all Catholikes to his Maiestie will or can be so contrarie to himselfe to publish a contrary command against a King offering in publike Parliament to meete with the Romish Church all nouelties taken away we wish no more and in the meane time acknowledge the same Romane Church to be our Mother Church and that his mind was to free vs from persecution for matters of Conscience Of such a King Bellarmine himselfe cited against vs will be witnesse that he thinketh the Pope cannot proceed against him The Reply Conceiue but how strictly the Pope hath commaunded