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A88107 The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1645 (1645) Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462 96,520 124

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TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE THOMAS ADAMS Lord Major of the Metropolis of England the renowned Citie of LONDON Right Honourable THe concurrent desires of people of all sorts except of such as raise their owne particular interests out of the common ruines for recovery of our peace and the pantings of many lying under the power of the oppressour for deliverance from warre have of late by the good hand of God upon our publique counsels and forces thriven up to hopes and those hopes to presages that it will be an Honourable note upon your Name in time to come to have had the good hap within your view before you give up to another the Ensignes of your Honour which is the generall vote of all the true hearted Patriots of three Kingdomes that is a well compounded and compacted happinesse made up of three of the most desirable blessings of humane society which are consistent with the condition of mortalitie and they are these 1. A sincere and through reformation of Religion in Doctrine and worship of God 2. A Discipline and Government established according to Gods word and the example of the best reformed Churches whereby with the assistance of Divine grace we may be better then heretofore secured from relapses into irreligion heresie schisme and profanenesse which have beene the great crimes and curses of the last precedent and present times though through the cunning workings of Satan the evils now in course with some degrees of improvement from bad to worse are taken by some to be the remedies against foregoing corruptions 3. A third thing which in order of dignitie is the last though in most mens affections it be the first is that according to the prescript prayer of the Apostle we may lead a quiet and peaceable life 1 Tim. ● 1 he addeth in all godlinesse and honestie but both these have beene virtually premised in the two precedent particulars This will be of so much the sweeter tast to all as either by actuall suffering or by affectionate sympathy they have taken the deeper draught of the bitter cup of furious hostility That none of this hopefull expectation may faile of effect it will be requisite that every one for his part and to his power endeavour to make it good by all the good meanes and helps which conduce to the comfort and safetie not of a few but of the whole Common weale in each of the Nations now so much shaken and in danger also to be broken in pieces 1. By making an holy Covenant with God and by being stedfast in the Covenant when we have made it so we may engage his favour and power to our partie to be not onely a friend and Patron to us but an enemie to our enemies and an adversarie to our adversaries Exod. 23.22 2. By being at union among our selves and studying as much to uphold it as the seditious Shebaes on the other side plot the setting of discord betwixt the dearest brethren and if it be not to be looked for that all who are equally concerned in the same Cause should unanimously consent in that course which may carry it on to desired successe yet there may be a fivefold union among us which may give strength unto and maintaine the reputation of the great Designe it hand viz. a through reformation both in Church and State The first union is of the two Sister Nations according to our solemne League and Covenant which must be preferred before all either factions or questuo●s interests of any particular party whatsoever For as no two Nations under heaven have more and stronger bonds of union then we of England and our Brethren of Scotland being bounded and surrounded by the Sea as one entire Iland united under one King under one Title in the Kings Royall style the King of Great BRITAINE united yet more in Language and Religion and most of all in our late Covenant for a generall Reformation of Church and State and mutuall association and assistance against all malignant combinations So nothing is more enviously observed by our common enemies then these many obligations of union betwixt us nothing more cunningly contrived or more seriously pursued by them and I wish some among our selves had neither hearts nor heads nor hands in the plot then to dis-joyne us and to make us not onely perfidiously to fall off from performance of our common Covenant but with the same hands which we have lifted up to the most High God to fall one upon another as the confounded and accursed Midianites Iudg. 7 2● and when by such wickednesse we are brought to a weaknesse which may be easily subdued but God forbid we should be both so bad and mad as to act a Tragedie upon our selves to set forth a Comedie for such malicious spectators as would make their greatest mirth of our most grievous misery we must expect the execution of the bloody and destructive designe resolved on in Ireland which a knowing Intelligencer hath reported of the rebels there in these words * The Irish Remonstrance p. 31. This Kingdome viz. Ireland settled and peopled onely with sound Catholicks thirty thousand men must be sent into England to joyne with th●●rench and Spanish forces and the service in England perfor●● then they will joyntly fall upon Scotland for the reducing of that Kingdome to the obedience of the Pope which being finished they have engaged themselves for the King of Spaine for assisting him against the Hollanders Wherein though they reckon without the Lord of Hosts who onely commands both Peace and Warre at his pleasure and swayeth the successe to which side he will yet this discovers their designe of unpartiall perdition of the Protestant partie and the discovery thereof should be a motive of more confirmed union among our selves The second Vnion is that of the Parliament and Citie whereof we have had such happy experience ever since the unhappy hostility betwixt the flatterers of the King and friends of the Kingdome that we are bound to blesse God for it and to pray for the continuance of it both for our owne time and for the ages to come The third is the Vnion of the Parliament and Assembly of Divines whose recipr●call and proportionable respects which I mean not in an Arithmeticall but in a Geometricall Proportion give much countenance and authoritie to what is propounded to the people in their names for so the command of the one will be more awfull the advice direction and resolution of the other more usefull throughout the whole Kingdome A fourth Vnion is betwixt the Assembly of Divines and the City Ministers who may the more easily accord and agree together because many of them be but the same men under severall relations and most of them are swaid by the same principles of truth and pietie and involved in a society and participation of the same duties hopes and hazards The fifth Vnion is betwixt the City Magistracie and the Citie Ministery to which
pressing and imperious necessities of the Commonweale requiring the raising of supplies in extraordinarie wayes for its owne support and preservation from perpetuall ruine and notwithstanding the exemplarie justice of the Parliament upon their owne members of both Houses to which may be added to their glory and the Kingdomes comfort their most just and impartiall provision against oppression of the people either by themselves or their substituted Committees the Libellous and in respect of some passages of his Booke I may say blasphemous Authour taking no notice of any thing that may be justly pleaded for the proceedings of Parliament labours to represent them to the people as a combination of most grievous and ●ngratefull oppressours I will set downe his owne words but so as the Scripture doth the blasphemies of Satan or Rabshakeh and other such like * The word cometh of Saraph which signifieth to burne and of that is derived the noune Saraph with the onely difference of a long vowell for a short which is used for a fiery serpent Isa 14.29 S●raphicall slanderers that they may be as odious as their disposition is dangerous to all good men if they had as much power in their hands as there is gall in their hearts their tongues and pens the Title of this out-lashing Libell is set downe in these words * For an Antidote against such calumnies see M. Prinnes Booke entitled The Lyar confounded Englands birthright justified against all arbitrary usurpation whether Regall or Parliamentary or under what vizor so ever With divers Queries Observances and Grievances of the people declaring this Parliaments proceedings to be directly contrary to those fundamentall Principles whereby their Actions at fast were justifiable against the King in their present Illegall dealings with those that have beene their best Friends Advancers and Preservers And in other things of high concernment to the Freedome of all the Free-borne people of England What ever the man is the B●●ke is no hypocrite for it i● th●s●●● within which it seemeth without For page the 33. he putteth this Qu●re and his Queres are implicit resolutions on the wrong side Whether is it not agreeable to law justice equitie and conscience that there should be a Parliament once every yeare and more often if need require whereby he meaneth that this Parliament hath sate too long already for a little after he chargeth them that many of the Members have betrayed their trust and those that remaine ingrosse Law-making and also Law-executing into their owne hands contrary both to reason and to the true intent and meaning of the Law and within a few lines he goeth on thus By which manifest abusing negligent and not true using the Lawes oppressions mischiefe● and grievances are no lesse if not farre more increased then they were before the Parliament began and many times by the powerfull Interest of a faction in the Parliament to save some one two or three of their Members undeserving credits they so violate the knowne unrepealed and declared Law of the Land yea and their owne Votes Ordinances Declarations and Protestations as if they had never made them I say all these things considered ought not the Freemen of England who have laboured in these destroying times both to preserve the Parliament and their owne Native freedomes and birth-rights not onely to choose new Members where they are wanting once every yeare but also to renue and enquire once a yeare after the behaviour and carriage of those they have chosen And having page 44. aggra●●●ed the condition of the times by taxes and impositions instancing in the Trade of Ha●makers he concludes with this enclamation which may serve for an incentive to seditions tumult O ●ruell pitifull and intolerable bondage no longer to be endured suffered or undergone the burden being heavier then the poore labourers can beare And that we may know of how lawlesse a Sect himself in and those whom ●e plead● for he pr●fesseth himselfe a litter enemy to Lawyers first 〈◊〉 the writer of a loose sheete of paper under the Title of Advertisements for the new election of Burgesses for the House of Commons by the name of a worthy Authour as a Caveat against filling up elections with such kind of men making the knowledge of the Law of nouse for making of a Statesman since it is saith he a confined and Topicall kind of learning calculated onely for the Meridian of Westminster Hall and reaching no furthen then to Dover for transplant a common Lawyer to Calice and his head is no more usefull there then a Sunne-Diall in a grave Whereas it is notorious to the world that sundry * As the L. Ver. M. I. Seld. Will. Pr. and some others whose excellently learned labo● praise them i● the gates professed Legists have been qualified with other learning and that both with great variety and in an eminent degree above other men Having impeached their heads he cometh downe to their hearts and hands and taxeth these for ill conscience as the other for ignorance Lawyers saith he being a bold and talkative kind of men will intrude themselves into the Chaires of all Committees where being accustomed to take fees they will underhand protect Delinquents and their concealed estates with tricks and devises He knoweth sure very little of the manner of Committees for no man can thrust himselfe into such an employment but is thrust into it by the major part of the Committee but there needs none Apologie where the Antilogie is none other then a most rash and unreasonable calumny and my present purpose is but to note how head-strong and unruly how refractory to Government and Law the Sectaries are already to what an height of insolence would they grow if which they presse for they should be permitted a toleration by publique Authoritie It may be some among them in time would take upon them as the proud and rude Rebell Wat Tyler in Richard the Seconds time who presumed among other most lewd and impudent demand● to * S. Daniel continuation of the History ad Rich. K 2. p. 5. propound this for one That all Law might be abolished affirming with an execrable oath before Night all the Law of England should passe through this strait clapping his hand upon his mouth But I must take my hand from this Table lest I trespasse against the publique Interest in detaining your Honour too long in beholding this Sciographie or shadow-draught of pernicious Sectaries sixce it is a time rather of action then of speculation and yet if your Honour have any spare houres for further information in the various and dangerous turnings and windings of the spirits of Errour whom Satan in these last and worst times hath sent out not by couples as our Saviour sent out his Disciples Mar. 6.7 but almost by Legions to seduce simple soules to trouble our publique peace and to reproach and retard the reformation desired I should make bold to offer to your view an
Malone in this manner The Booke indeed is presented to the world farre later then my expectation which hath beene ready as it now comes forth these many yeares But the Presse was still employed and occupied with other things by them that had command He that herein imputes sloth or negligence to me knows me not For if I should give but an Indiculus of my studies Et vacet annales nostrorum audire laborum I might make the Jesuite and a thousand more ashamed of their idlenesse Farre be it from me to brag and beast who have ever abhorred all shadow of vain-glory remembring Solomons words Let another man praise thee and not thine owne mouth Prov. 27. And therefore leaving it to the disposer and prosperer of all mine endevours I content and feast my selfe with the suffrage of my conscience as desirous for mine owne part to have something more then the world knows Though I might appeale if need were to the grand Reader of Europe as best acquainted from the very first with me and my studies But what the world knows give me leave to speake that it may appeare that this worke could never fall into fuller hands or to a man more imployed who could allot no more time to it then what must be gained succisivis horis Pro Archia Never could Tully speake more truly of his abstracted life and importunate lucubrations I expounded the whole Bible through in the Colledge in dayly Lectures and in the chiefest bookes ordinarily a verse a day we need not Origens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this work we held almost fifteene yeares A few yeares before this was ended I beganne likewise the second Exposition of the whole Bible in the Church and within tenne yeares have ended all the New Testament excepting one booke and a piece all the Prophets all Solomon and Iob so that my Answer to the Iesuite did in part concurre with both these labours What preaching what expounding this is my constant practise neither sicknesse nor any thing else withdrawing me thrice every Sabbath for the farre greater part of the yeare once every Holy-day often twice besides many other extraordinary sudden occasions Adde to these my weekely Lectures as Professor in the Controversies and my Answers to all Bellarmine in word and writing Where in above eight yeares I finished his Tome of the seven Sacraments for there we beganne his last Tome in sixe yeares and now sundry years in the Tome or Tomes remaining What breathing time had I in all these imployments or how could this worke be committed to fuller hands And though there be but a few who are so eminent in parts and in performances so laborious yet the most of those Ministers who are to beare a part in the Discipline of the Church either are or if the Refomation proceed will be so well qualified that they may give due attendance upon preaching and yet have competent time for other duties whereto as men as Christians or as Ministers whether in the Church or Consistory they are engaged And Mr. Pr. knowes by experience in his owne profession that many are able being habituated in Book-learning and Law-cases and pleading of Causes upon a little warning to speake more and better to the purpose then many others by long preparation and he himselfe we see hath time enough not onely to plead his Clients causes but to write so many books as were they bound up together would make divers very competent Volumes and while a good Minister and I hope we shall have more store of such then in former times is exercised in Church Government he is not quite out of office for preaching and instructing for he may have just occasion and faire opportunitie ministerially to admonish those that are convened either as parties to be censured or as witnesses to be examined in the Ecclesiasticall Consistorie SECT XVII The Objection of in efficacie for holinesse of life in such as live under the Presbytery answered THe second particular he produceth in Mr. Prinnes name against the Presbytery is * M. Salim in his opening of 〈◊〉 the Vindication p. 23. 24. and in the Vindication it self p. 57. the want of efficacie in it where it is established which he exemplifieth by instances in severall reformed Churches elsewhere and comparing England with them he saith That the practicall power of godlinesse is generally more eminently visible in the lives of the generalitie of the people more strict pious lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations where there hath beene powerfull preaching without the practise of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament then in the reformed Churches of France Germany Denmarke or Scotland for which I appeale saith he to all Travellours and Independent Ministers who have lived in the Netherlands who will and must acknowledge that in the sanctification of the Lords Day strictnesse of life and exemplarinesse of conversation our English Ministers and Protestants excell all others These be Mr. Pr. his words upon which Mr. Saltm maketh this inference viz. That the Vindication though it pretend in the generall face of it to be for the Presbyterie yet it is cleare that in aspersing the Government in all those reformed Kingdomes where the practise and power of it hath beene it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world and though it pull not downe the Government quite yet it Weakens the posts or judgements of men on which it stands Answer 1. By what I have read of Mr. Prinnes writings what I have observed of him my selfe and received by report of such as are best acquainted with his mind and wayes I conceive him to be so true an Israelite without all guile that he will not pretend one thing when he intends another 2. For the Assertion it selfe there be two things to be considered 1. Whether it be true or no. 2. If so what may be the reason of it that alleadged or some other For the first Whether the Assertion be true or no The resolution of this Question must be made with difference of times for Countreys as well as particular persons have their variations in Religion not onely for profession of the faith but for practise of holinesse as in King James his dayes upon the Declaration and libertie granted upon the Sunday that is the name in the Declaration and it is the fittest name for a licence of profanenesse for sports and pastimes renewed by the King that now is the people of England were more loose and licentious on that day then now they are upon the burning of that Book and an Ordinance of Parliament set out for the more holy observation of the Sabbath The Application of this distinction may resolve the observation severall waies and we may say that sometimes one people or Nation sometimes another and the same people at one time more then at another may be more conformable in practise to the principles of piety And as there is a
and not doubt they would see a good issue and good content they need not feare they may be kept a while from their desires but in the end they will have content if their owne earnest pressing for it doe not hinder Now let us come home It would be well Sir if you would come home and keepe at home and take measure of your owne parts and sit close to your Trade and not ramble abroad to busie your selfe in writing Intelligence of matters which are farre above the elevation of your Pole or the comprehension of your head-piece But your zeale perhaps such a zeale as the Apostle taxeth which is without knowledge Rom. 10.2 just like a pressing-iron which hath heat without light stirred you up to complaine of some troublesome spirits who while the Army is labouring to end strife begin it anew and they are such say you as Fame saith have been the causes of all the strife and who be they Fame saith the late Deputie of Ireland and the little Drelate of Canterburie were prime causes of the Kingdomes and the Churches disturbance And are they since their heads were cut off as Herod thought of John Baptist Mark 6.16 raised from the dead to revive our divisions Common Fame saith the Queene and her Faction that have parted the King and the Parliament Digby Hopton Goring Greenvile and other Military male-contents have caused and doe still continue the most dangerous contentions and convulsions in England as Moutrosse and his party in Scotland Ormond and his barbarous and bloody Papists in Ireland But we must looke for these make bates at home and find out such as at present doe trouble our peace and if we doe so Fame saith that they are such among us as oppose the settling of an uniforme Government and breake out communities into severall Sects such as so divide the husband from the wife the parents from the children the master from the servants that a zealous Ioshua cannot say I and my house will serve the Lord Iosh 24.15 since his family is distracted and sorted into severall Congregations and it may be also into hereticall conventicles Fame saith that such factious journeymen as Mr. D. are publique Incendiaries and Trumpeters of Sedition by taking all occasions making use of all advantages casting about for all manner of devices to increase their divided partie that they may be able to uphold a faction and because they cannot hope that their noveltie and paucitie should be able to maintaine a publique contest against so many both persons and Churches as are engaged against their way they make it their Master-piece to leaven the most considerable Societies Cities Sea-Townes Armies but especially the Parliament with their Independent Principles and practices and either to get Independents into places of chiefe power and trust or to seduce such as are eminent in dignitie endowments or authoritie to their side and if they cannot obtaine them they plot how to displace them and if they cannot doe that to render them lesse serviceable to the Publique their way is to weaken their reputation with reproaches or cunningly to intimate some matter of suspition touching their acts or intentions if they be of such integritie as is of impregnable proofe against their obloquie then they will by way of compliance worke out of them what they can which may conduce to their designe and if they can prevaile no further they will at least by an artificiall sweetnesse of behaviour by appearances of more then ordinary piety by a pretended extenuation of difference of opinion and practice and by such insinuations so becalme or becharme the spirits of some Presbyterians of eminent parts as to make them if not favourable to their cause yet so that they may not appeare against them when they should or but in a very remisse and moderate degree of opposition Lastly to returne to our Intelligencer they set up weekly Pamphleters who are wholly of their stampe or fee them or by some other artifices worke upon them to take all occasions to magnifie their partie and to vilifie and calumniate those that oppose them and so they sometimes hyperbolize a Shrub on that side into a Cedar and disparage those who under God are the chiefe pillars and supporters of the publique welfare as if they were of no more worth or use then Reeds shaken with the wind and this is not the least part of the Independent policy to drive on their designe all over the Kingdome for most of the common people know little of the progresse of publique affaires but by such Informers and they furnish them with weekly lies to honour those of their owne sect or sects rather for they are many and to cast reproaches on such as are serious and resolute in all just and lawfull meanes of establishing of truth and restoring of peace But it may be he meaneth by Fame that report which he and his fellowes in loose sheets have dispersed abroad in City and Countrey and if so I say Famaest malum his fame is infamous notoriously false as he applyeth it viz. to those who make addresses to the Parliament by way of Petition We did intreat saith he the last weeke they would let the Parliament alone and wait and no doubt they would see a good issue and good content We did intreat them to let the Parliament alone We Sir who besides your selfe and why you and what meane you by letting the Parliament alone doe you forbid the subject of England to petition the Parliament if that be your meaning as a man of Moderate Intelligence may easily perceive it is do you not mean they should be deprived of the most undoubted Priviledge and Libertie which by the Law of Nature and of Nations is allowed all over the world if the Parliament had beene of that mind since their first Session they would not have tendred so many Petitions to the King nor have received so many Petitions from all parts of the Kingdome nor could they but by the informations received in them have knowne so much of the distemper of severall Counties nor had so just grounds and causes as they had for many of their Orders and Ordinances which were issued out from that Honourable Senate and your selfe say in the next page that a part of the Parliaments Answer to the Citie Petition was that the Citizens were intreated hereafter that they would take satisfaction from themselves that is satisfaction of their doubts and desires by immediate recourse to that Honourable Court and how can that be better or more acceptably done then by way of petition But he saith They need not feare they may be kept a while from their desires but in the end they will have content if their own earnest pressing for it doe not hinder How knowes he that better then they who have put up their desires for expediting the difficulties of the Government by way of petition to the Parliament The truth is if he beleeve