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A97377 A most necessary & frutefull dialogue, betwene [the] seditious libertin or rebel Anabaptist, & the true obedient christia[n] wherin, as in a mirrour or glasse ye shal se [the] excellencte and worthynesse of a christia[n] magistrate: & again what obedience is due vnto publique rulers of all th[os]e [that] professe Christ yea, though [the] rulers, in externe & outward thinges, to their vtter dampnatyon, do otherwyse then well: translated out of Latyn into Englishe, by Iho[n] Veron Senonoys.; Von dem unverschampten Fräfel der Widertöuffer. English. Selections Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; Véron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4068; ESTC S113331 40,542 90

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sake onelye thoughe all thinges yea and your owne liues had bene taken from you ye ought to haue suffered and too haue refrayned from suche deuelisshe enterprises it had beene vnpossyble but the forenne natyons hadde come vpon vs. Prayse and lande bee gyuen vntoo the for euer O mercyfull father that thou dyddeste of thy mere mercye wythoute anye deseruynges or demerites of ours preserue our illustre and noble kyng with all hys dominions and Realms in this most parillous tyme of insurrectyon and tumult which these children of Belial dyd so vngodly styrre vp For what wyll ye haue vs to call you Good felowes Maynteners and defenders of the common weal Why I was loth at the first that these tumult insurrectyon makers shuld be called rebels and traitours By lykelyhode ye woulde be soo called Nay nay I was full loth at the fyrst I haue many to bear me record of the same that ye should be called rebelles or traytours because I thoughte those names to be to heynouse for you Agayn I had a good hope that ye would be wonne reclamed by some fayre and gentle meanes For who would haue thoughte so muche stubburnesse in you Farthermore I was afrayd that your rageouse madnes shoulde rather be set on fyre by suche wordes then asswaged It was I say sore agaynst my wyll that so horryble and odyouse names should be giuen vnto you at the fyrst but syth now that ye dyd persyst and some of you doo yet furyously persyst in geuyng the occasyons of suche most deuilysh interpryse being perswaded by noo maner of reason What may we ryghtly call you but rebelles and traytours and most extreame enemyes of the commune weale For all that ye go about is to vndo this noble and florysshyng Realme and moste vnnaturally to betray your owne naturall countrey vnto forenne nations and Princes I say vnto you that all youre mortall enemyes that compasse you round about set them all together Frenchmē Scottes Danes Turkes culd not haue founde or ymagined a more ready waye to destroy Englande then ye Englyshe men dyd For as a Realme be it neuer so small is inuincible yf the subiectes of it beyng knitted in loue do holde together so if they be once deuided agaynste them selues it is vnpossyble but that the same lande countrey Scilurus king of the Scitians must be brought to vtter desolation Whych thyng Scilurus a Kynge of the Scitians did moste liuely set furth by a goodlye exaumple Apophthegme which I woulde it were bothe written and paynted vpon euerye wall that men myghte learne thereby how strong a thing concord and vnytye is This kinge Maruail not that thys kynge had so many sonnes for it was lawfull vnto them to get childrē vpon many women as the histories do testify had .lxxx. sonnes whom a litle afore hys deathe he dyd call altogether biddynge them to bryng euery one of them an arowe Whych thing beyng done he cōmaunded that all the arowes shoulde be fast bounde together and so delyuered the bondell of arowes beyng thus fast boūd to euery one of his sonnes bydding thē to breake the arowes as they were faste bounde together in one bondell Which thynge because it was vnpossyble they refused to doo Then the kyng cōmaunded the arowes to be vnbounde and did geue to euery one of them an arowe too breake whyche they did lightely Then the kyng exhorting his sonnes to vnitye and concord did saye to them after thys maner By concorde small thynges do growe but by discorde great thinges are broughte to naughte If ye agre wythin youre selues and holde together ye shal be inuincible no man shall be able too ouercome you but if ye disagre and fal out emong your selues ye shall be both weake and easye to be ouercomen Shall not this heathē ethnike kinge rise in the day of iudgement condempne you that so vngodly do breake the vnitye peace and concorde of your owne naturall countrey Oh how many of the heathen which neither knew god nor his word did offer them selues manfully to die for the welfare preseruatyon of their owne naturall contrey these vnreasonable beastes to call them christians I am ashamed do go aboute and study all that they can to destroye it to betraye it and moste trayterouslye to bryng it to naught Oh what may I say now vnto you Repente for goddes sake and come to your ryght mynd againe for yf ye go on thus by vnlawfull meanes to shake of put away the plague and scorge that god hath sente to you for your detestable sinnes besides euerlasting dampnation and vtter vndoing of your own naturall contrey Rebelles doe alwaies come to a shamefull ende death of their bodyes ye shal incurre a most shameful deth of your bodies Reade all the histories both prophane and holy that euer were writē since the begynnyng of the world and ye shal your selfes fynd that alwaies rebels haue had a shamefull ende And no merueile for they do resiste the ordinaunce of god I myghte here repete and reherce the hystory of Corah Num. xvi cha Dathan and Abyram which with their wiues and children and xiiii M and .dcc that held with them did horrybly peryshe for theyr rebellyon Iudi. xii chap I myght allege how Ephraim made insurrection against Iephtha whom god had raised to be iudge ouer Israel of the which Ephraites .xlii. M. were miserably slain What nede I to bringe here the horrible tragedie of Absalon ii Reg. xviii chapiter and of Siba the sonne of Bocheri Loke ye your selues vpon the bookes of the kinges and of Paralippomenon ii Reg. xx cha or Chronycles and ye shall there fynde that the one beinge hanged vp by the lockes of hys heares in an oke was thristed thorough with .iii. spares with whome .xx. M. of the people were slaine and loste and that the other beyng pursued by Ioab and besyeged wythin Abel and Bethmaaka was by the councell of a wise woman beheaded his heade throwen ouer the wal to Ioab Dyd the people therfore that rebelled with hym escape vnpunished ii Reg. xxiiii chapiter Obiection No no The lord god hater of all rebellion tumult did afterwardes so sore plague Israel with pestilence that in three daies ther dyed .lxx. M. But thou wilt say This was because that Dauid had numbred the people of Israell and Iuda Solution had not obserued the lawe Let the scripture answere for me which saith And again the lord was wroth against Israel moued Dauid against thē Al ecclesiastical writers do agre that this was for the synne of rebelion that is to saye because that they with Siba rebelled against Dauid the annointed of the lord Oh the the same noble Historiograph Iosephus were traunslated in to Englyshe for your sakes There there should ye reade se how many M. of the Iewes were disconfited ouer throwen and slayn at sundry tymes because that they
yet almighty God which is the searcher of the heartes and of the loynes knoweth what beaste ye nourysshe and beare aboute with you in your heartes Which thyng shall be manifest and open How we mai deliuer our selues from misery and calamitye whē the lord shal reuyse the secretes of euery mans hearte Wyll ye then be rydde from the myserye that ye are wrapped in Will ye be deliuered from extorcion tyrannie and oppressyō Remoue and put awaye the causes Let vs put awaye these enorme synnes that we are drowned in I meane vnfaythfulnes murmurynge agaynste GOD ingratytude and vnthankefulnesse Let vs banysshe from emonge vs vncleanelynes fornycatyon adulterye dronkennes backbytynge periurye vntrue dealyng vnlawfull othes and blasphemous swearynges Thys done let vs boldelye flye vntoo the Lorde and wyth earneste prayers procedynge from a trewe and an vnfayned faythe call vpon hym for ayde and succoure and wythout doubte he wyll heare vs. For the truthe it selfe dyd saye Psalme l. Call vpon me in the day of thy trouble and I wyll bothe heare and delyuer the that thou mayest gloryfye my name Marke thys well he dothe notte saye In thy trouble that is to say when thou art afflycted and oppressed runne into the fyelde and there mutter make vnlawfull assembles agaynste the magistrates but he sayth Call vpon mee addyng a most comfortable promyse that he wyll bothe heare and delyuer thee Seeke then the meanes that the Lorde hath appoynted the and folowe not thy carnall and flesshelye affectyons for they are blynde Carnal●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ly affec●●●●● are blynde and wyll brynge the intoo all kyndes of calamytye and myserye whereas yf thou doest obeye goddes worde and suffer pacyentelye the wronge if any were done vnto that by the hyghe powers and rulers thou mayest be sure that he wyll deliuer the at length thoughe it be not so soone as thou woldest haue it For it is wrytten Psalme ix The poor shall not be forgotten alwayes the pacyente abydynge of the meke shall not perysshe for euer Oh that thys doctryne were prynted in all mennes heartes thē shoulde we haue lesse tumulte and sedytyon Tumult sedition dothe come of plain ignoraunce of gods worde whych truely doth ryse of nothing elles but of playne ignoraunce of gods worde and heauenlye truthe Were not the chyldren of Israel the chosen and elected people of God a longe season in Egipt beyng by the space of foure score yeres and more so sore afflycted and oppressed by that cruell tyraunte Pharao Exo. i. ii cha that besydes all other myseryes wherewyth they were there ouerwhelmed they were fayne to se all theyr men chyldren as soone as they were borne too be kylled afore theym or elles before theyr ●yen to be drowned in the riuer of Nilus And yet we doo not reade nor heare though they were six hundreth thousand men besides women and chyldren that there was euer anye mutteryng any insurrectiō or vnlawfull assembles emong them Exo. xiiij cha but dyd abyde styll pacientlye the helpynge hande of the Lorde whiche at lengthe when they did call earnestly vp on hym dyd deliuer them so mightely that without any sweard drawing they were reuenged of their enemyes whyche oppressed them Let vs doo the same let vs abyde paciently the helpyng hande of the Lord let vs put away vice and embrace vertue Praiers are the armure weapons of the christians in affliction Psalme ix callyng night and day vpon oure heauenly father For praiers are the armour and weapons of the christians whē they are in affliction and trouble wee maye be sure that he wyll not forget vs the holy Prophete Dauid saying God forgetteth not the complaynt of the poore But yf we go about by vnlawfull meanes and wayes to delyuer our selues besydes that we shall runne as the late experience taughte vs intoo farther thraldome and bondage we shall without all doubt purchase vnto oure selues euerlastyng dampnatyon For why We doo resyst the ordynaunce of god Which to do is most dampnable as the holy Apostle doth testifye Rebelles goo aboute too bring their naturall coūtrey to vtter desolatyon Mat. xij chap Nowe let vs se intoo what parell and ieopardye these brayneles and vngodly folkes do most vnnaturally bryng theyr own natural countrey Do not they as much as in them lyeth by theyr sedityous tumulte go about to bryng it to vtter desolatyon Christ our sauyoure the euerlastyng wisedome of the father and eternall truth sayth Euery kyngdome deuided agaynst it selfe shall be brought to naughte And euerye Citie deuided agaynst it selfe shall not stande Wherby it may be gathered that they that seke or make anye diuision within a Realme or countrey do intend nothing els though they falsly pretende an other thyng but to brynge the same Realme or countrey to naught It is vnpossyble that the wordes of our sauyour whych is the truthe it selfe shuld be false Whych to be most true and infallible What Realmes cōmun weales didde fall to decaye by dyuysyon daily experience doth suffycyently teache vs. For what thing I pray did bryng the florysshynge commune weale of the Assirians to naught Diuision What thing did make the Medes Persians and almoste all Asia soo weake that they could not withstande a handfull that came out of Macedonia Diuision What thinge did subuert and turne vpside downe that goodlye and well ordered common weale of the Lacedemonians whych in vertue and manlynes dyd farre excede all other men Dyuision What thyng did bring the Athenienses which were rulers of al Grecia and lordes of the seas to so greate thraldome seruitude and bondage that they could neuer get them selues into libertie agayne Diuision What hath broughte the Romaynes whyche by theyr prowesse had conquered al the wholl world into soo base a state that the lesse kyngdome of Europa is able too compare with them whyche afore made all the wholl world to tremble and quake at the dynt of their sword Diuisiō To be short what thyng did in tymes passe encourage the Danes and Normans too inuade thys countrey almost to the vtter vndoynge and confusyon of thys noble and florysshing Realme Diuision That I should in the meane season let passe and speake nothynge of the common weale of the Iewes and Israelites whiche after that they were ones deuyded agaynste them selues were neuer able to resyst theyr enemyes In so muche that at lengthe they were brought into perpetuall captiuitye and thraldome Read the holy Bible reade Iosephus Herodotus Iustinus Titus Liuius Sabellicus and for the historyes of Englande Polydorus Virgilius Ye may se nowe that by stirryng vp of diuision ye did brynge your owne naturall countrey into as great a paryll as myghte be God was the defender of this realme in the tyme of insurrction For onlesse God had beene a stronge Bulwarke vntoo thys moste victorious Realme of Englande and a moste fauourable father protectoure and defendoure vntoo oure Virgyn kynge for whose