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A09108	A revievv of ten publike disputations or conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares, vnder K. Edward & Qu. Mary, concerning some principall points in religion, especially of the sacrament & sacrifice of the altar. VVherby, may appeare vpon how vveake groundes both catholike religion vvas changed in England; as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions, and offer themselues to the fire for the same, vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said disputations. By N.D.; Review of ten publike disputations.	Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.	1604 (1604)	STC 19414; ESTC S105135	194,517	376

that so yt was told them And this they thought sufficient for their assurance 56. But now on the contrary side yf a man would oppose to these ten publike disputations before recyted ten learned Councells of the Catholike Church that disputed examined and condemned this heresie of theirs against the reall presence vvithin the space of these last 600. yeares since Berengarius first began yt as namely those foure named by Lanckfranke to witt that of Rome vnder Leo the 9. and another of Versells vnder the same Pope the third at Towars in France vnder Pope Victor successor to Leo the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Nicolas the second In all which Berengarius himselfe was present and in the last not only abiured but burnt his owne booke And after this six other Councells to the same effect the first at Rome vnder Gregory the 7. where Berengarius againe abiured as VValdensis testifieth The second of Lateran in Rome also vnder Innocentius the third the generall Councell of Vienna the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Iohn the 22. the fifth at Constance and the sixt at Trent All these Councells I say yf a man consider with indifferency of what variety of learned men they consisted of what singular piety and sanctity of life of how many nations of what dignity in Gods Church how great diligence they vsed to discusse this matter what prayer what conferringe of scriptures and other meanes they vsed and with how great consent of both Greeke and Latyn Church conforme to all antiquity they determined and resolued against the opinion of Protestants in our dayes he will easily discouer how much more reason and probability of security there is of aduenturinge his soule of the one side then of the other which yet he will better do by contemplation of the vanity of new Protestants arguments and obiections against so ancient founded and continued a truth Which obiections we shall examine in the Chapters followinge And so much for this THE STATE OF THE CHIEFE QVESTIONS handled in the forsaid disputations Concerninge the reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse vvith the chiefe groundes that be on eyther side CHAP. II. THE questions that were most treated and vrged on both sides at the two changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary were principally three all concerninge the Sacrament of the Altar as before hath byn shewed The first about the reall presence of Christ in the said Sacrament the second concerninge the manner of his being there by Transubstantiation and the third about the same as it is a Sacrifice Which three points of Catholike doctrine being left by K. Henry the 8. standinge in vigour as he had found them deliuered and preserued by all his ancestours Kings of England from the beginninge of our conuersion vnto Christian Religion they were all changed within two yeares after the said Kings death by authority of his sonne being then somewhat lesse then a dozen yeares ould and by force of a certayne act of parlament confirmed by his name intituled An act for the vniformity of seruice and administration of Sacraments c. Which act though in shew yt conteyned nothinge els but the admission and approbation of a certayne new booke of Common-prayer and administration of Sacraments for so are the words of the Statute gathered togeather by Cranmer Ridley and some others of the same humor yet for that in this new communion booke togeather with many other articles of auncient beleefe these three also of the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice were altogeather altered and a new manner of faith therin taught yt was giuen forth that all was established and setled by Parlament and for that this collection of new articles of beleefe passed as you haue heard in a bundell or fardell shuffled vp togeather in hast vnder the name of a reformed booke of Common-prayer without any great examination or dispute about the particulars but in generall only takinge voyces in the parlament house as well of lay-men as other learned and vnlearned whether the booke should passe or noe wherin the L. Seymour Protector and his crew hauing the Kings authority in their hands and gettinge Cranmer and Ridley on their sides for loue of weomen and other preferment easily preuayled as by the statute yt selfe may appeare yt was thought expedient as before hath byn noted that presently after the statute published two meanes should be vsed for authorizinge and better creditinge the same The one by persuasion of diuers meetings conferences and disputations of the learneder sort which before yow haue heard related and the other by imprisonment depriuing such Bishops and other cheefe Ecclesiasticall persons as should shew themselues most forward or able to resist this course which they began with VVinchester Durham and London And thus passed they on for those 4. or 5. yeares that remained of K. Edwards raigne after this change wherein notwithstandinge almighty God shewed wonderfully his hand of iudgement and punishment soone after vpon the principall authors of this innouation both spirituall temporall as of the later both the Seamours Northumberland Suffolke and diuers of their followers of the former Cranmer Ridley Hooper Latymer the like as to the world is euident 2. For vpon this followed the raigne of Q. Mary for other 4. or 5. yeares who seeing so pittifull a breach made in the realme by this vnlucky alteration she as a zealous Catholike Princesse endeauored to restore the old faith and Religion againe to the former vnity of the vniuersall Church and close vp the wound that had byn made vsinge to this effect the selfe same meanes of instruction and correction by arguments and punishments but in different manner and with farre vnlike iustice of proceeding For that the arguments were the very same which euer had byn vsed by ancient Fathers against old heretiks in the like controuersies and the punishments were no other then such as auncient Ecclesiasticall Cannons did prescribe and were vsed only towards them that eyther had byn cheefe authors of the innouations or stood so obstinately in defence therof as by no meanes they could be recalled 3. Now then yt is to be considered which of these two sorts of people had more ground or reason either those that withstood the first change in K. Edwards dayes which was from the old accustomd Religion to a new or those that resisted the second change or exchange vnder Q. Mary which was nothinge els indeed but a returne from the new to the ould againe And heerby will appeare the state of the controuersie vvhich now vve are to handle For as for the first sort to witt Catholiks the historicall state of their controuersie is manifest concerninge these three questions about the Sacrament for that no man can deny but that the doctrine of the first and third which is the reall presence and Sacrifice had byn receaued and held for

A REVIEVV OF TEN PVBLIKE DISPVTATIONS Or Conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares vnder K. Edward Qu. Mary concerning some principall points in Religion especially of the Sacrament sacrifice of the Altar VVHERBY May appeare vpon how vveake groundes both Catholike Religion vvas changed in England as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions and offer themselues to the fire for the same vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said Disputations BY N. D. Aug. lib. 2. against Petilian the Donatist VVe are constrayned to heare discusse and refute these trifles of yours least the simpler and weaker sort should fall into your snares Imprinted vvith licence Anno M. DC IIII. The contentes of this Reuievv THe Preface shewing what vtility disputation may bring for discussion of matters in controuersy and how farre togeather with the causes why the reuiew of these ten disputations is now published 1. Often publike disputations recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England about controuersies in Religion especially concerninge the blessed Sacrament of the Altar vvithin the space of foure yeares at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary besides many other more particular held in Bishops consistoryes and other places about the same matters CHAP. I. 2. The state of the cheife question handled in the forsaid disputations concerninge the Reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse with the cheese grounds that be on eyther side CHAP. II. 3. Certayne obseruations to be noted for better answeringe of hereticall cauillations against the forsaid articles CHAP. III. 4. The examination of such arguments as in the former disputations were alleaged by the Zivinglians and Caluinists against the Reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament CHAP. IV. 5. VVhat Catholike arguments were alleaged in these disputations for the reall presence how they were answered or shifted of by the Protestants CHAP. V. 6. Of two other articles about Transubstantiation and the Sacrament of the Altar what passed in this disputation CHPP. VI. THE PREFACE Shewinge what vtility disputation may bringe for discussion of matters in controuersie how farre togeather vvith the causes vvhy the reuievv of these ten disputations is now published THAT disputation is a good meanes and profitable instrument to examine and try out truth euen in matters of faith yf yt be rightly vsed vvith due circumstances no man can deny for that experience in Gods Church doth teach yt to vvitt that great vtility hath often-tymes byn receaued by such disputations and vve read amonge other examples that in the tyme of Antoninus the Emperour sonne of Seuerus that died in Yorke a little more then a hundred yeares after Christ the Montanists heresy vvho vvere called also Cataphrigians grovving strong and dravvinge to it diuers pricipall men and namely Tertullian vvith the admiratiō of the vvhole vvorld one Caius a Cath man most excellently learned and of rare and vertuous life tooke vpon him to dispute publikely in Rome in the presence of the vvhole Church vvith licēce of Zepherinus the Pope against a chiefe principall man of that sect called Proclus and so confounded him therin as frō that day forvvard the sect began greatly to decline of vvhich disputatiō do make mentiō both Eusebius S. Hierome yt did much profitt that Catholike cause 2. And about 2. hundred yeares after this againe vve read of another profitable disputation held in our countrey by S. Germanus his fellovves French Bishopps vvith the Brittish Pelagians vpon the yeare of Christ 429. vvherby they vvere so confuted as also vvith the miracles vvrought by S. German by certaine reliques brought from Rome as their heresie neuer prospered there aftervvard but vvas soone extinguished VVe read in like manner of diuers publike cōflicts disputatiōs held by S. Austen vvith diuers learned heretiks of sundry sects as namely vvith Fortunatus a Manichean priest in the citty of Hippo in Africa vpon the yeare 392. al the clergy people being present publike notaryes appointed to set dovvne both their argumēts the issue of this disputatiōs vvas that vvhē the Manichean heretike could not ansvvere he said saith Possidonius secum suis maioribus collaturum that he vvould conferre those difficultyes vvith his betters then if they could not satisfy him se animae suae consulturum that he vvould haue care of his ovvne soule But this care vvas saith the same Possidonius that he ranne avvay from the citty and neuer appeared there againe VVhich point S. Augustine himselfe obiecteth in a certayne epistle to another Manichee Priest that came to succeed in Fortunatus his place in that citty prouokinge him also to like disputation but the heretike refused the combatt 3. And after this againe the said Father being novv made Bishopp vpon the yeare of Christ 405. he disputed publikely for tvvo dayes togeather vvith another principall Manichean heretike named Foelix in presence of the vvhole people notaryes being appointed on both sides to take their arguments In vvhich disputation S. Austen did so euidently conuince his aduersarie as he in the end yelded a strange example in an heretike and renounced his heresie and became a Catholike vvhereby the Mauichean heresie vvas so shaken and discredited throughout all Africa as no man euer openly aftervvard durst defend the same in disputation but it vanished avvay by little and little as a smoke vvhen the fire is putt out This vvhole disputation is to be seene at large in S. Austen laid forth in tvvo books of his de actis cum Faelice Manichaeo And this for the Manicheans 4. But vvith the Donatists and Arrians he had many other like conflicts as for example vpon the yeare of Christ 411. there vvas a sollemne disputation held at Carthage in Africa for diuers daies togeather betvvene the Catholike and Donatist Bishopps the Cath. Bishopps being in number 286. vvherof the principall disputer vvas S. Austen himselfe of the Donatist Bishops 279. vvhich shevveth the multitude of heretiks in those parts to haue byn great notvvithstandinge they had bin much diminished by Cath. Bishops labours and vvrytings for that 17. yeares before there mett togeather against the Catholiks 400. Donatist Bishopps exceptinge six this disputation vvas before the Conte Marcellinus gouernour of that countrey and publike notaryes vvere present to take the argumēts on both sides and all being ended the Iudge pronounced this sentence Omnium documentorum manifestatione à Catholicis Donatistas confutatos That the Donatists vvere conuinced by the Catholiks by the manifest truth of all kind of arguments S. Augustine himselfe setteth forth a breefe relation of all that meeting disputation intituling yt Breuiculum And in a certayne epistle of his testifieth moreouer of the euent that albeit those miserable Bishops vvere not conuerted therby but rather made more obstinate obdurate yet that many of their people vvere especially of the

fro vvhat shall vve thinke of the vnlearned and ignorant people that cannot vnderstand that is argued and much lesse iudge therof and yet vpon the creditt of such disputations do aduenture their foules as yovv haue seene by many lamentable examples before in both mē vveomen that vpon the fame creditt of these English disputations heere sett dovvne by Fox partlie vnder K. Edward partlie vnder Queene Mary and vpon the probabilitie of some fond and broken arguments vsed therin for the Protestants side as somevvhat apparant plausible to their senses capacity haue not only stood therein most arrognatly against their Bishopps and learned Pastors by open disputatiōs in their Courts and Consistoryes but haue runne also to the fire for the same vvherof Allerton Tankerfield Crashfield Fortune and others before mentioned being but Cooks Carpenters and Coblars by occupation yea vveomen also as Anne Alebright Alice Potkins Ioan Lashford Alice Dryuer and others may be ridiculous but lamentable examples 16. Neither is this a nevv or strange thinge that hereticall vveomen should grovv to such insolency as to stand in disputation vvith the learnedst Bishops of the Catholike side for that vve read it recorded in Ecclesiasticall historyes aboue 12. hundred yeares gone to vvitt vpon the yeare of Christ 403. that a certayne vvillfull vvoman of the citty of Antioch named Iulia infected vvith the abhominable heresie of the Manichees and feruent therein came vnto the citty of Gaza vvherof S. Porphyrius a holy learned man vvas Bishop beginning there to peruert diuers Christians being for the same reprehended by the Bishopp she contemned him yea chalenged him to open disputatiō vvhich the good man admittinge she behaued herselfe so insolently therein as vvas intolerable So as vvhen he had suffered her a great vvhile to alleage her blasphemous arguments could by no meanes reduce her or make her harken to the truth he fell from disputation to vse another meane turning himselfe to God sayinge O Eternall God vvhich hast created all thinges and art only eternall hauinge no beginninge or endinge vvho art glorified in the blessed Trinitie strike this vvomans tongue and stopp her mouth that she speake no more blasphemyes against thee VVhich vvords being vttered Iulia began to stammer and to change countenance fallinge into an extasis and so leesing her voyce remained dumme vntill she died vvhich vvas soone after vvherat tvvo men and tvvo vveomen that came vvith her fell dovvne at the Bishopps feete as kinge pardon and vvere conuerted as vvere diuers gentills also by the same miracle 17. And this vvas the conclusion of that disputation and though it pleased not almightie God to vse the like miracles externallie in Qu. Maryes dayes for the repressinge of those insolēt vveomen that disputed so malepartlie and vttered so manie blasphemous speaches against the soueraigne misterie of Christs reall presence in the Sacrament yet can there be no great doubt but that invvardlie he vsed the same or no lesse iustice vnto them especiallie seing he suffered them to go to the fire all vvithout repentance and so to perish both bodilie and ghostlie temporallie add eternallie And for that in recytinge their storyes before sett dovvne intendinge all breuitie possible I could not conuenientlie lay forth their seuerall arguments in disputation as neyther of those that vvere their maisters and inducers to this maddnes I haue thought good heere to examine all togeather in this Re-vievv vvhereby yovv shall see vvhat grounds they had of so great an enterprise and of so obstinate a prosecution therof And this shall suffice by vvay of Preface Novv vvill vve passe to the recytall of the said disputations OF TEN PVBLIKE DISPVTATIONS Recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England About Controuersies in Religion especially concerning the blessed Sacrament of the Altar within the space of 4. yeares at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K Edward and Queene Mary Besides many other more particular held in Bishops Consistoryes and other places about the same matters CHAP. I. Novv then to come more neere to the matter yt selfe we are breefly to recount the forsaid ten disputations or publike meetinges and conferences that after the change of the outward face of Catholike Religion in England were held in our countrey within the space only of 4. or 5. yeares and the effects that ensued thereof which in great part were not vnlike to the successe of all those disputations meetings conferences colloquies and other attempts of triall before mentioned to haue ben with little profitt of agreement made in Germany Polony France and other places amongst the Protestants of this age since the beginning of their new ghospell the causes and reasons wherof haue in part ben touched by vs in our precedent preface and shall better appeare afterward by the examination of these ten publike disputatiōs from which as from generall storehouses or head schooles were borrowed the armour arguments for these other lesser bickerings of particular Foxian Martyrs which they had with their Bishops Prelates Pastors at their examinations arraignemēts vpon the confidence pride wherof they were induced to offer themselues most obstinately pittifully vnto the fire as in th'examē of Iohn Fox his Calendar you haue seene aboundantly declared First Disputation §. 1. 2. Wherfore to recount the particulars as breifely as we may the first publike disputation of these ten wherof we now are to treat was held at Oxford against the reall presence of the blessed body bloud of our Sauiour in the Sacrament of the Altar by Peter Martyr an Italian Apostata friar vpon the yeare of Christ as Fox setteth it downe 1549. which was the third of K. Edward the sixt his raigne about the moneth of Iune for he expresseth not the very day and the cheife moderator or iudge in this disputation was D. Cox Chancelourat that tyme of the vniuersity but after vnder Q. Elizabeth was B. of Ely and his assistents were Henry B. of Lincolne D. Haynes deane of Exceter M. Richard Marison Esquier and Christophor Ne●●son Doctor of Cyuill law all comissionars saith Fox of the Kings Maiestie sent downe for this effect to authorize the disputations 3. For better vnderstandinge wherof yow must note that albeit K. Edward had raigned now more then full two yeares and that the protector Seymer and some others of his humour would haue had change of doctrine established euen at the beginninge about the point of the blessed Sacrament yet could they not obtayne it in Parlamēt partly for that the farre greater part of the realme was yet against it but especially for that it was not yet resolued by the Archbishopp Cranmer himselfe of whome if you remember Iohn Fox doth complaine in one place vnder K. Henry that good Cranmer had not yet a full feelinge of that doctrine Whervpon we see that in the first parlament of K. Edwards tyme begon vpon the 4.

day yet in the substance of the sacrifice they do as also in many other particular circumstances vsinge the words of oblation sacrifice victime signes singings blessings eleuations and other such rites which Protestants cannot abide And for the cannon and forme of our masse which is vsed at this day in the Latyn Church most parts therof are to be seene in S. Ambrose his books de Sacramentis and the whole order as now yt is hath endured without alteration from S. Gregory the first downeward wherof yow may see Alcuinus Amalarius VValfridus and other ancient authors in their books de diuinis officijs 53. By all which generall heads yow may easily see the multitude of testimonyes that may be alleaged out of the Fathers yf we should prosecute euery one of these in particular how great reason Martyn Luther had to except against them all or rather to defy them all when first he begā to write against this sacrifice Hic non moramur saith he si clamitant Papistae Ecclesia Ecclesia Patres Patres heere we care not though Papists cry Church Church Fathers Fathers And againe Heere I do professe against them that vvill cry out that I do teach against the rite of the Church and ordinances of Fathers that I vvill heare none of these obiections And in another place against our K. Henry of England much more immodestly and wickedly when the King alleaged the authorityes of ancient Fathers for the masse this shamelesse fellow answered Thomisticos asinos c. I say that these Thomisticall asses haue nothinge to bringe forth but only a multitude of men and vse of antiquity And a little after he saith expressely that he careth not though a thousand Augustines and a thousand Cyprians be brought against him So as this first Father and chiefe Captayne of our Protestants did easily graunt as yow see that the whole consent of ancient Fathers was against him Ponderations Upon the Premises §. 4. 54. All which being considered there remayneth only to weigh what a discreet man may thinke or do in this important case For first heere is all the antiquity of the Christian Church on the one side that testifyeth vnto vs not only what was beleeued and exercised in their dayes but vpon what grounds also both of scriptures of the old and new Testament and by Christs owne institution fact and ordination and by the practise and tradition of the Apostles themselues Then is there the continuance of all ages since throughout all countreyes and nations of Christendome as hath byn said There is the agreement of all generall Councells The consent of all Ecclesiasticall historyes wherin as there is continuall mention of both publike and priuate exercise of this externall Sacrifice So is there no memory at all of any tyme synce the Apostles wherin yt began or that euer any contradiction doubt or question was about the same for 1200. yeares togeather after Christs assension which must needs haue happened yf the vse therof had not byn prescribed and left by Christ and his Apostles themselues For what men or people would haue attempted to begin or bring in so great a matter as this or who would haue receaued yt without opposition yf yt had not byn established euen from the beginninge I adde also another cōsideration of no little importance which is that yf Christ had left his Church people without a particular externall sacrifice wherby they should be distinguished from all other people the Christian Church vnder the law of grace should be inferiour to the Church of the patriarks vnder the law of nature and vnto the Prophetts vnder the law of Moyses for that both of those Churches and people had an externall dayly sacrifice wherby to honour God besides the internall sacrifice of their mynd neyther can yt be said that Christs owne sacrifice on the Crosse once offered for all is this dayly sacrifice apprehended by vs in faith for that they also beleeued in him and their sacrifices were acceptable only by faith in him to come And therfore as Christs one sacrifice then to come was no impediment why their dayly sacrifices which tooke their valour from this one of Christ should not be dayly offered amonge them so the same sacrifice of Christ vpon the Crosse being now past should not take away our dayly sacrifices offered in remembrance therof and for the applying of the infinite valour of that one sacrifice vnto vs from which this other dayly sacrifice taketh his sufficiency 55. Furthermore the very outward forme of all Christian Churches there buildinge with Crosses Altar Iles and the like the foundinge of monasteryes Chappell 's oratoryes the ceremonyes in foundinge them their statutes for sayinge of masses for the dead which were in Britany both before our nation was conuerted and much more after the whole Canon of our Latyn masse-booke which is graunted by our aduersaryes and euidently proued to haue byn as yt is now for aboue a thousand yeares togeather and brought in by S. Augustine our first Apostle All these things I say do shew whether this were a matter to be called in question by a few libertyne Priests and auaritious noble men to be banished the realme vpon a soddayne vnder the name of a child Kinge that knew not what yt meant as yt was in K. Edwards dayes in our miserable countrey 56. Moreouer yf yow ponder with your selfe what manner of Priests they were for life learninge and vertue that acknowledged themselues to haue offered sacrifices vpon Altars in their dayes as S. Irenaeus S. Cyprian S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Gregory and others of the first ages yea and for these ●ater ages since Berengarius mooued first the question about the reall presence as S. Anselme ● Bernard S. Thomas of Aquin S. Dominicke and almost infinite other Saints and holy men of whome all historyes do report wonderfull extraordinary tokens of almighty God his speciall fauours towards them and do compare them with the first marryed Priests and Apostata friars that were the first impugners of this sacrifice in England or round about vs we shall find a great difference And then yf we consider by what good spiritt or motiue Luther began the first contradiction in Germany which was by the diuells owne persuasion and personall appearance vnto him and disputinge against yt for yt seemed that he esteemed so much both of the man and the matter that he would not send an Embassadour vnto him as he did soone after to Zuinglius for impugninge the reall presence but go himselfe in proper person and that all this is confessed by themselues and testifyed by their owne wrytings All this I say being laid togeather may strengthen him that hath any faith at all to stand constant in the beleefe of the Catholike Church concerninge these articles For yf there be any certainty or ground in Christian Religion at all