just as it was one Robert Brook being Excommunicated the Dogs would not take bones from him Phy. Why then you have proved your Professor of Divinity your Franciscan Priest to be not onely in a woful condition but not of the Church of Rome nor of its Communion For he is and has been a long time Excommunicated by the Pope for those very distinctions that you and others dote upon and have mention'd in this our discourse Pap. Sure it can't be so Phy. Do you know Obedient Peter Walsh Pap. I have good reason to know him and love him and honour him for he is a Learned Pious and Peaceable minded man Phy. Why he it was that tell'd me of the Excommunication I mention Pap. I can't believe it Phy. I verily believe he tell'd it you too Pap. On my Credit he tell'd it not to me Phy. Why he tell'd it to all the English and Irish Roman Catholicks and writ a Letter to them all and printed it and saies so in that Letter page 5. 47. 48. So then he is disabled to officiate as a Priest and while he remains so disabled and others of the same opinion as Mr. Walsh sayes there are five hundred in England What Confessors have you and who can make new ones but the Pope and will he make any more of the same Opinion or such as are not of his Faith and what if Priests be changed or change their opinions as to our State what security can be given against it As for ye poor Blinds ye are already in the Snare and how to get out how know ye for ye must not dispute nor can ye for want of knowledge which is necessarily kept from yee Nor if ye could must ye dispute with your Superiors but ye must believe as the Church believes Yet the reason of such belief ye must not inquire into for the Pope is to Explicate all Matters and all other Explications are declared void and Null by Pope Pius the Fourth in a Bull for that purpose which Bull all Priests are sworn to obey however your dispensing Priests may wheadle with ye And in truth it comes to this that either such a True Roman Catholick as your Confessor pretends to be must commit Treason or renounce some Articles of Faith holden by that Church which he advises and conjures ye to believe Pap. Then I hope such a man deserves protection and favour here who for his Allegiance to the King runs such a bazard Phy. I can't see what protection or favour he deserves for such Allegiance or hazard nor can I tell how far such a one is to be trusted who is a Heretick at Rome and called True Roman-Catholick in England and cannot agree with the King if the King should agree with him Let the King do as he pleases Why is it to be thought that he should yield due Obedience to our King to save his Neck who refuses due Obedience to his supream head of his Church to save his Soul Pap. Judge not too rashly for the Franciscan you speak of is accounted a Man Phy. Let him be accounted what he will and make what profession of Allegiance and Obedience he pleases this I know That the Pharisees Christs utter Enemies called themselves so as holy Seperalists as others have called themselves the Family of Love the Saints c. The Saduces who denyed the grand Article of Faith the Resurrection so called as the righteous The learned Gnosticks and the Robbers Zealots and Peter Walsh sayes there are Indifferents Zealots Bigots and Hypocrites among them so call these Interpendents between Pope and King what you please I know what to call them as before and while I think it not safe for them to be in either place ROME or ENGLAND c. I advise them to hasten to a Locus tertius and be sure they dye in belief of Purgatory Pap. It 's time for us to have done I see you are an angry Protestant Phy. I 'me glad you can see me something and of some Church I cannot see what or of what Church you are or would be Pap. But Sir Do not you think we have travailed ten miles from London Phy. Truly yes I take it you have travail'd full ten miles Pap. Then at yonder Sign I 'le stay and consider a while Phy. Sir if you stay an hour there I 'le come and drink a glass of Wine with you Pap. Content Sir Phy. Farewell THE Second PART PHY. How now Sir what mounted already I had hopes to have drank a Bottel of Wine with you and made haste accordingly Pap. Sir I have staied a full hour here my Landlord affirms so and that is as much as you desired Phy. Sir I perceive you are a Person that stints your self in the Duties of Religion and Conversation Pap. As long Sir as I fulfil all Commands I fulfil the Law Phy. You may be said to fulfil the Law and yet at the same time not to be obedient to that Law For if a man fulfils the Law to save the penalty which the Civil Sanction annexes that 's done by force when as all Obedience is spontaneous and ought to be made from the reason of the thing in Morals for the reason of the Command in Indifferents yet not for the Command sake but by Law natural which injoyns such Commands to be obeyed as before I said Pap. Sir you are a strange man thus to arraign me in my Morals Phy. I find good cause so to do for what ever Huffs and Bragadocho's some of your Clergy make about Demonstration I find as they understand not so with you of the Laity you take all things on trust Pap. What reason have you to say so you know not on what Grounds we go Phy. Yes since I 've met with you I have well learnt how to judge of you and that you take things on trust as for Example 1. You took it on trust that Ogilbies Wheel had declared it twelve Miles to Rumford 2. You took it on trust from me of a different Religion that you had travail'd ten miles 3. You took it on trust from your Landlord that you had stayed a full hour for me 4. You took it on trust that your great Franciscan was of the Communion of the Church of Rome In all which you may be mistaken and in the last doubtless are for the reasons before Pap. But pray whither travail you now Faith I have been considering of somewhat you said before and now you hint at again i. e. If any Priest be excommunicated how can he be a true Roman Catholick therefore for ought I know I am none neither and so not within the Proclamation and so may return back again to London however I 'le go and inform my self better of these things you have mentioned I do not doubt but at another time to answer them all fully if I cannot I know who can Phy. You had need be better informed indeed I wish you good Information
power He can in a manner do all things that God can do which several Tenets are holden by true Roman Catholicks and others have affirmed that the Pope is above Law against Law without Law and can do all things and that in all Oaths the Popes Power is excepted And lastly if some of your Superiours should be true to their word or Oath such as it is and so commenced upon and explained as before what Assurance can be given That such Mushrom Papists as you shall be alwaies guided by them and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps Garnets or Venners or that under colour or pretence of meek Nothings who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God Rapts and Extasies other Baronian wretches may not intrude using the same vizor for a while and when occasion and opportunity shall serve then cry aloud as some have done Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth Then in earnest would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholicks that name of names and most glorious of Titles as indeed it is but venerated by that great Franciscan with that nick name Roman and especially Walshes Letter c. p. 5. against all which I hope Soveraign Notice and Caution will arm it self and that before it be too late for as Plantus Qui cavet ne decipiatur vix cavet cum etiam cavet quando enim cavisse ratuâ— est sape is Cautor captus est Pap. You talk of Mad-men I think you will show your self such I 'me glad I am near my journeys end I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge and go the back way I like not your company now and shall not trust my self with you in the City least you discover me Phy. Truly Sir I have made as much discovery of you as I desire and I discover besides your Religious impertinencies your Obedience to the Kings commands to be just as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies wheel viz. mearly to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more I wish you again better informed and so farewell But Sir pray stop but a little while and I 'le tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Souldier of the Bishop of Rome Old Rome older then your Bishop of old Rome Caesar who seeing this Souldier fighting with most accurate valour beset with many Foes yet forced his way through them all and escaped through great mires waters and great difficulties with only the loss of his shield ran to the Souldier to imbrace him and to incourage and reward his incomparable prowess the true hearted Souldier out of Sence to his Duty and Obedience which by the Law written in his heart he owed to his Prince was so far from being transported with the glory of his Action or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation that with Tears in his eyes he asked pardon of him that he had left his Target behind him And Sir before we part I have another thing come in my head and that is I have a desire to send you a memorable Record which I have in my Study it is the Opinion of the Judges Nobility and Clergy of England concerning the Kings Supreme Ecclesiastical Power with reference both to Papists and Puritans pray how may I direct it to you Pap. Sir I shall give it the perusal you may inclose it in a Paper directed to Mr. Justin Hide and leave it at the Book-sellers at Graies-Inn Gate Phy. I shall Sir and once more Farewel THE RECORD OF 2o. Febr. 2. JACOBI MEmorandum that by Command from the King all the Justices of England with diverse of the Nobility viz. the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellour the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer Viscount Cranborn Principal 2 Croke 37. Moore 755. Secretary the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral the Earls of Northumberland Worcester Devon and Northampton the Lord Zouch Burleigh and Knowles the Chancellour of the Dutchy the Arch-bishop of Canterbury the Bishop of London Popham chief Justice Bruce Master of the Rolls Anderson Gawdy Walmsley Femier Kingsmith Warberton Savel Daniel Yelverton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Chamber where the Lord Chancellour after a long speech made by him concerning Justices of Peace and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assise and a Dâ—â—ouse concerning Papists and Puritans declaring how they both vvere Disturbers of the State and that the King intending to suppress them and to have the Laws put in Execution against them demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things First vvhether the Deprivation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners for refusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed by the last Canons vvas lawful Whereto all the Justices answered That they had conferred thereof before and held it to be lawful because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power vvhich he hath delegated to the Commissioners vvhereby they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen doth not confer any new Power but explain and declare the ancient Power And therefore they held it clear That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy and might deprive them if they obeyed not And so the Commissioners might deprive them but they could not make any Constitutions vvithout the King and the divulging of such Ordinances by Proclamation is a most gratious Admonition and for as much as they have refused to obey they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners ex Officio without Libel and â—re tenus convocati Secondly Whether a Prohibition be grantable against the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party Whereto they all answered That the Statute is intended where the Ecclesiastical Judge proceeds ex Officio ore tenus Thirdly Whether it were an offence punishable and what punishment they deserved who framed Petitions and collected a Multitude of hands thereto to prefer to the King in a publick Cause as the Puritans had done vvith an Intimation to the King That if he denyed their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented Whereto all the Justices answered That it vvas an Offence finable at Discretion and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment for they tended to the raising of Sedition Rebellion and Discontent among the people To which resolution all the Lords agreed And then many of the Lords declared that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the Common-Law either in the Kings Bench or by the King and his Council or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star Chamber And the Lords severally declared how the King vvas discontented vvith the said false Rumour and had made but the day before a protestation unto them that he never intended it And that he vvould spend the last drop of blooâ— in his Body before he vvould do it And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion then vvhâ— he truly professed and maintained that God vvould take them oâ— of the World FINIS
own sakes principally and for the Kings sake only inasmuch as they hoped for more Indulgence from a merciful Prince then from a Herd of men who could not be content to shave their Fathers beards but must cut their throats Yet Sir I am satisfied It s true that you as you say Owe great Allegiance to the King but I never could be satisfied that ye paid so much nor no more then utmost necessity compell'd from you and I am now in greater dissatisfaction by the story of the ten Miles and no more Pap. You may still Sir rest under the same dissatisfaction and must so do until you understand throughly the Distinction I before mentioned Phy. As for your distinction of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papist what ever was intended by the Inventer of the Knack I take it to be a 〈◊〉 Notion set up to stifle due Reflections on old Errors for most certainly an English Papist as Papist abstracted from doctrinal opinions is a Traytor to the King of England Pap. Hold Sir you intend not to quarrel me on the road sure and begin with such rude Language Phy. Pray why may not I call an English Papist Traytor as well as you call an English Protestant Heretick the crimes are both Capital Pap. If you understood any Distinction you would answer your self Phy. You crie Distinction Distinction Court of Rome Church of Rome but what is all that to the Church of England I suppose the Author of that so much magnified Distinction might mean thaâ— by nâ—â— being of the Court of Rome he may hold That the Pope haâ— not right to any temporal Jurisdiction in our Kings dominions but that our King is absolute Monarch there that 's something indeed and diversifies him from a de fide man and Jesuit who hold the contrary But yet he by being of the Church of Rome must hold that the Pope has right to some spiritual jurisdiction within our Kings Dominions which to affirm is to take away part of his Imperial Crown and as 't is against all truth so by the Laws of this Realm is Treason besides while he holds the Pope Head of the Church and so infallible he obeys him well who believes not what he says For while the Church of Rome Papist sayes our King is lawful King of England Scotland and Ireland he gives the Lye to his Infallible Holiness who has continued the old Interdiction of these Kingdoms the Excommunication of our Kings and has declared our King to have no right to his Kingdoms And therefore in anno 1662. as well from Cardinal Barberin as from the Popes Nuncio at Brussel a severe Reprimand was sent to the Irish Nobility who had subscribed a Remonstrance testifying their Allegiance to our present King the Pope declaring it as an Injury to the Faith and a denying of his Supremacy And in anno 1648. when the Papists to prevent banishment declared That the Pope cannot absolve them from their Obedience That he cannot depose any Heretical as 't is call'd Magistrates that he cannot dispense with Oaths made with such Hereticks This was at Rome condemned as Heretical the Parties summoned to appear at Rome and Censures and Prisons prepared for them and in the same Case is your Man of Distinction with the Irish Papists for subscribing their formulary to that purpose so that I see nothing from your distinction to arise but a Monster of Aequivocal generation an Hermophrodite in Religion part Romish part English Catholick whose seminal Vertues are to exert themselves as either powers prevail Pap. I verily believe that the Catholicks of the Church of Rome are good Christians and true Roman Catholicks though they are not of the Court of Rome and they indeavour to reform that Church and distinguish it from that Court Phy. You say well distinguish for it may be distinguished in Notion but can never be separated in Deed the Court and the Church of Rome being so interwoven and although some few Straglers thus distinguish yet in reality all our Contests concern the Court of Rome in that all the interest of that Church is dependent on that Court and they are incorporated together so that if we should ever joyn in Communion with that Church we must in a little time submit to the Usurpation of that Court. Jurisdiction of Church and State being in the same hands cannot be severed unless some Sir Salomon among you can divide Pope Cardinal Prelate as great Salomon would have done the Child which the two Mothers claimed And as to your irregular and feeble Indeavors to reform that Church Pray by what Authority do your true English-Roman Catholicks endeavour to reform the Roman Catholick Church For your Confessors tell you at the first Principle that ye must believe as the Church believes yet they themselves believe not so but would reform that Church in its Articles of Faith Pap. Sir they know well enough what they have to do and we believe them who have good Authority to instruct us in our belief Phy. You have said all that is permitted to silly misled Ignaro's to say But have a care and inquire after such Reformers who in single private Capacities unauthoritatively undertake Reformation of Churches At one time undertaking the Reformation of the Romish and British Churches Our Church was reformed by due Authority according to the most antient Laws of this Realm It having all the Rights of a Patriarchal See But can a few Renegado-dandi-prat Papists think to unhinge a Church or State under a pretence of Reformation These Reformers of yours I fear prompted our late Pretenders to Reformation who first would reform the Court then the established Church by Presbytery then Presbytery by Independent then Independency by Subdivisions of Atomical Sects till with Quaker and Millenaries Government was reformed quite out of doors such Reformers as is said are like the Hobling Erastian and run like Badgers with variating and unequal Motions and if they can keep where the ridge of secular Power goes highest their Reformation turns into Rebellion and Papist Reformers are as various and divers from their Church of Rome aye and from themselves Pap. You mistake us much for the Reformers I mean go not about to reform the whole Church or to unhing it but to reform in their private Practises and Judgments and teach us so Phy. They are good Members of that Church in the mean time that are wiser then their whole Church not only to differ from their Church in their private Practises and Judgments but to teach all others to do so too Right Roman Catholicks I 'le warrant them Pap. What pray do you think of Father Paul who wrote the Council of Trent so disadvantagiously to the Romish Interest and yet he died a steady Catholick of the Church of Rome Phy. I 'le tell you what I think of him I think first That he was no English man and so nothing to our purpose for I have nothing to