is not this fulfilled in these times which wee wish may well bee laid to heart The second thing which wee conceive may chiefly hinder this closing is that point of Church government which concernes the power and liberties of particular Churches or Congregations and here wee must acknowledge the distance is too great For on the one side wee cannot see either by Treatises or by the Directory for Worship that Congregations are acknowledged to bee compleat Churches especially standing among other Churches or that any power or liberty is given to them to administer Church censures no not so long as they administer rightly according to the rule but all such power is taken indeed from the Churches though in words they are perswaded that it is to strengthen them and if this also come down from the Catholick Church and so to lesser Synods the greater part having power over the lesse as it were jure divino it will strike sore at the liberties and power of particular Churches But what here to say of the distance on the other hand wee cannot tell wee see or read nothing but that our deare and honoured Brethren doe freely imbrace communion of Churches in consultative Synods for the brotherly helpe of each other and the weaker Churches yea and in a doctrinall way to declare the will of Christ and to threaten his judgements against such as shall refuse wholsome counsell and withdraw communion from such as wilfully refuse to heare what is propounded according to the minde of Christ And what should we here say but on the bended knees of our soules intreat our reverend Brethren to consider what power any or many Churches can challenge over another to require them to give up their right to them to rule in common if a sister Church furnished with Officers shall refuse the same or what rule bindeth the Churches of an hundred or any such civill division to come into such a combination with those Churches rather then others if that refusing Churches have just reasons to object against such Churches or their Officers We think the more voluntary and free such consociations are the better Here we shall be bold to propound this one thing viz. Why may not the fifth and sixth Articles of agreement publikely professed to the world in answer to the Prelaticall petition obtaine amongst our Brethren that it may appeare to the disappointment of their hopes that the Prelates being downe the agreement would be easie as is there said Viz. Ar. 5. Each particular Church hath her owne power and authority and the use and benefit of all the ordinances of Christ neither is there any thing to be done without the expresse or tacit consent of the Congregation in matters which are proper and peculiar to a particular Church whether in election or ordination of Ministers or in admitting or excommunicating of members Ar. 6. It is in many respects expedient both for the members of each Church whether Ministers or people and for the right governing and well-being of the particular Churches in a Nation professing Christian Religion that besides their particular Assemblies and Elderships they meet by their Commissioners Ministers and Elders in greater Assemblies that matters that concern all the Churches within their bounds respective may with common advice and consent be agreed upon for their good and edification And we hope the Lord may yet have such a mercy for England if the crying sins thereof bee not still impenitently against this glorious shining light of the Gospel persisted in which wee confesse is our greatest feare Godly Brethren wee hope would agree if Englands sins hinder not We confesse it was the saddest newes that this yeare came unto our eares that the Kingdome of Christ is hardly like to obtaine so much jealousie there is lest the discipline of Christ should crosse the licentionsnesse of this age yea that generally there is no more regard of the solemn Covenant especially in personall reformation then if it were never made that many reject the reformations they seemed to desire at the first These with other sad things come to our eares which sadden our spirits Oh England England our beloved England wilt thou not be made cleane when will it once bee wilt thou still return the Lord Jesus graciously striving with thee for to save thee such an unkind answer We will not have this man reigne over us hast thou not yet learned so much wisdom as to kisse the son no not now when he is angry and the sword in his hand That voice of God soundeth oft in our eares when wee thinke of England Put off thine ornaments that I may know what to doe unto thee but for ought we heare the pride of England did never so much testifie to their faces as now when sackcloth and ashes were more suitable The Lord humble the hearts of our deare Countrey-men or else wee feare the yoake of Christ will never be born and how the Lord Jesus will beare and indure that we tremble to think But what doe we thus to take upon us and let loose our Pen so far pardon we beseech you Christian Reader this seeming boldnesse it is our hearty affection to the peace and prosperity of our deare Countrey and the Saints of God in it that have drawn these things from us Say not what calling have these thus to admonish and censure us Censure we doe not that we would doe onely to our selves but faithfully to admonish and exhort in the Lord we hope we may presume Neither have we taken upon us this whole weighty worke of our owne minds but at the request and call of divers our reverend Brethren whose voice herein we looked upon as the voice of God nor have wee accepted that call out of any lust we have to contend or enter the lists of disputation with any Wee love the peace of the Churches and unity and concord with all our deare and godly Brethren too well to have any such ends And though wee are not unwilling to receive and consider any returne that may bee made and we hope with a mind to submit to the truth yet wee must professe Two things chiefly inclined us to undertake this worke First to cleare up such truths as we conceive to bee according to the minde of Christ which were obscured by this Reply Secondly and that especially hoping that what wee should write would tend rather to a peaceable healing of offences and differences then otherwise and therefore have presumed to Preface thus farre and so to present these our affectionate requests to our deare Brethren and Country-men which wee heartily recommend to their serious consideration and to the blessing of God who onely can incline the hearts of men to attend to any thing of God set before them though wee bee the meanest and weakest of many to take upon us thus to speake to our deare Country-men yet through the grace of Christ who put us into the Ministery we
meanes of worship which those Priests never were Reply On the contrary if you will extend this Text to all unworthy Ministers of what sort soever whom the Word of God condemns as not approved Ministers of God c. Answ Wee intended no other sorts then such as wee have in hand the unable and ungodly Idoll Priests of England and therefore this discourse concernes us not For wee freely confesse that it is lawfull in divers cases at least for a time to communicate with such unworthy Ministers as may bee contained in your description but that people must and ought to joyne with such in the worship of God and sinne if they separate from the ordinances as you say the Scriptures alledged teach not this so evidently that wee can see as 1 Sam. 2. 12 13. 17. 24. that imputation Verse 24. They make the Lords people to transgresse doth not depend immediatly on Verse 13 14. 17. but on Verse 22. 23. where they are charged to have layne with the women the other passages being interrupted by the story of Samuel and his Mother Verse 18 19. 20 21. So Jer. 8. 8 9. Micah 3. 11 12. containe onely threats against wicked Ministers but not a word to prove people ought to joyne with them c. Phil. 1. 15. speaking of such as preach and preach Christ though not of sinceritie doth not reach such Ministers as the word condemnes for many such may be approved Ministers by the Word having a call according to the same but wee shall not contend in this case wherein wee doe not dissent so that Christians bee left to their lawfull libertie of withdrawing from Ministers grossely wicked and Teachers of false Doctrin or idle and unsufficient when they cannot reclaime them or remove them in the use of all lawfull meanes within their power Reply The reasons whereby the ancient Churches condemned the Donatists and Catharists for their voluntary and seditious separations and the moderne Churches condemne the Anabaptists for their renting from the body of Christ will hold against separation from the Prayers of the Congregation because they are read by an ungodly Minister Wee deny that wee teach or hold such separation because read by an ungodly Minister as is sufficiently shewed before but what we speak is against conformitie to and communion with the corruptions of the Liturgie especially used by an unable as well as ungodly Minister and therefore the arguments mentioned will hold against our proposition just as the accusations and imputations of Donatisme Puritanisme Anabaptisme which the Prelates cast upon all Non-conformists and men studious of reformation will hold and fasten upon them which is nothing at all Reply The second Proposition where the whole Liturgie is used though by an able and godly Minister it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case Wee cannot bee of your judgement herein for in the times of the Prophets and our Saviour Christ as great abuses no question were found c. but they never taught people to separate from the holy things of God Answ First wee must still mind the Reader of the true and full state of the question which in our answer is of joyning in prayer with and when that whole Liturgy is used and hee that joynes with that whole Liturgie must needs bee supposed to have actuall communion with all the corruptions thereof what ever they bee and therefore though this Proposition reach to the practise of able and godly Ministers yet let none thinke wee plead herein separation from their ministery but onely that people may not conforme with them to any corruption in worship and by this proposition also the Author might easily have seene that wee denied the other which was woven in with this not because of the ungodlinesse of the Minister alone as hee carried his dispute but chiefly in respect of the corruptions of the worship together with the unlawfulnesse of such a ministery that is both unable and ungodly Secondly concerning the argument it runs as full for conformitie to all the corrupt ceremonies of the booke as the corrupt worship it selfe therein as was said before cleare the one viz. non-conformitie to ceremonies shew a reason why you will separate from the Sacrament because you will not kneele according to the booke and you answer your argument here alledged against us but the reply proceeds Reply And if presence at formes of prayer bee not lawfull by reason of the corruptions alledged there can bee no visible societie named since 200. yeeres after Christ or thereabout wherein a Christian might lawfully joyne in prayer reading the Scriptures hearing the word or participation of the Sacraments their Doctrines prayers rights being lesse pure then ours but no man wee hope will bee so bold as to affirme the state of the Churches within 200. yeers after Christ to bee so miserably decayed that the faithfull could not without sinne hold communion with them in the foresaid ordinances of God Answ First this argument holds as strongly for conformitie to the ceremonies as to the whole booke of Common Prayers as was said before Secondly this is a dangerous kind of reasoning from the practise of the faithfull in corrupt times of the Church especially when they are declining and growing clouds of darkenesse and superstition overspread the Churches It is no breach of charitie to thinke that through the iniquitie of the times the godly lived in many evils through ignorance and weakenesse which after light is come into the Churches wee ought to abandon wholly these are times of light and of the consumption of Antichrist and time for us to abolish his Liturgies and corrupt formes of worship as well as Images ceremonies c. Who doe not pitie the weaknesse of godly Bilny and others that seeing some grosse corruptions were yet so devoutly obedient to the Church as they called it in many grosse superstitions and the like may bee said of those former times and wee see not but this reason will goe farre in justification of communion with many false worships of Antichrists that are not grosly idolatrous Thirdly it is a great charge upon those times to say no visible societie throughout the world can bee named since 200. yeeres after Christ that was not lesse pure then England in Doctrine rites c. It may bee that as generally Churches were corrupt so they contemned and censured such as professed more puritie but that there were some visible assemblies more pure may bee conceived by that testimony given to Aerius and many orthodox Christians with him though condemned for a Hereticke in that which wee all now hold to bee an undoubted truth also after the Waldenses casting off the Pope and his will worships and the following reformed Churches those of Scotland Geneva and divers others in France and Switserland c. whose Doctrines rites and administrations wee doubt not will bee confessed more pure then English Churches It would bee too tedious and in these knowing times
family with himselfe to the griefe and hazard of his godly wife and hopefull children c. from all Ordinances of Christ to a people full of fanaticall errours were it Christian liberty or dangerous licenciousnesse to leave such a man to his owne counsels and not meddle with him Reply May you not heare from your owne grounds that herein you have devised an expedient or necessary rite or custome to prevent the dissolution of the body which never came into he minde of the Lord Jesus the Saviour of his body and in so doing if your exposition hold good you break the second Commandement and so presse customes onely expedient for the time as standing rules necessary for all times and all persons to put that authority into the hands of men which God never put upon them to obliege men to meddle in the affaires of men beyond warrant to binde consciences under so heavy â— penalty as that of Ananias and Saphira where God hath not bound them to debarre approved Christians from the seales because they cannot promise as seiled members to abide in the society and yet charge them as men that against light refuse subjection to the Gospel this is that which wee cannot approve which yet wee suspect will follow from your judgement and desire to bee resolved in your practise Answ Here is a greater heape of heavy criminations gathered together and cast upon us upon very weake grounds upon mistakes suspitions and wee feare too much credulitie given to some clamorous persons returning to England and too little credit given to our true relations and faithfull professions most of these have beene cleared in the former passages where wee met with them and wee marvell how they come in so twisted together here againe wee shall here onely cleare our selves of the first and referre the Reader to their proper places to see our answer to the others Here it is imputed unto us that wee have devised a rite to preserve the unity and prevent the dissolutions of the body which wee conceive is intended of this promise of not removall without leave which promise is not required of us nor made in our Church Covenant as wee have said and the ground of this imputation is also a meere mistake arising from the confounding of a second answer to the objection against our first reason with the second reason of our practise which are distinct and have a different scope for whereas some might object that this reason from the Covenant holds with such as grant such a Covenant lawfull the answer saith that some indeed question the necessitie of it but wee hope you doe not question the lawfulnesse and thereupon the answer first gives reasons and proofes of the lawfulnesse of it And secondly for the necessitie which is taken from the nature of all societies incorporate which by a fundamentall rule doe require of all that enter into them and partake of the priviledges thereof to conforme to all such lawfull rites and orders as are expedient for the well being of that society the contrary whereof would bee injurious to him to offer and confusion in them to accept and from hence it easily followes that a Church being a body of a people injoying priviledges together it is necessary fundamentally that they should bee joyned in some promise or Covenant which Covenant though in civill societies it may consist in rites and orders devised by themselves for their good yet in the Church which is the body of Christ this Covenant is no other but to performe the duties required in the Gospel towards God and one another without any rites or order devised by themselves as wee professed in setting forth the nature of the Covenant and this being the true scope of those words let any judge what ground is given by us of such an imputation of devising rites c. Neither doth the second reason in the answer give any ground of this imputation for though it dispute from the necessary ruine of the Church and all Churches if it were lawfull for any member when whither and wherefore hee please to depart from the Church without consent yet there is not one syllable that gives an hint of any rite custome or order devised by us to prevent the same but for the avoyding thereof wee still wholly and onely bind our selves to the rule of the Word to direct order and reforme all actions of this nature and to shew unto men whether they may lawfully remove or not remove not requiring any expresse promise to the contrary in this particular no more then in others and thus wee hope wee have resolved you of our practise as you desired To conclude this passage give us leave without offence to say thus much Although through the grace of Christ we desire humbly to submit to this part of our tryall even to goe through evill report as well as good yea all the reproaches and cruell mockings of the world knowing that wee have deserved much more from the hand of that God without whose providence a tongue could not move against us yet wee cannot but account it one of our poorest afflictions to suffer in this kind from the pens or tongues of our dearly beloved brethren for whom wee daily pray and to whom wee hope wee shall never bee provoked to returne any other language then savouring of love and respect But wee must confesse wee meet with so many sore criminations oft upon meere mistakes cast not onely upon our selves but the truth and wayes of God which wee professe and that both by this learned author and some others that wee cannot be so senselesse of the dishonour is reflected upon the truth of God herein as wholly to bee silent and groane out the griefe of our spirits to him that knoweth our hearts wherefore wee humbly beseech all our godly brethren to beare with us a little if after all the harsh passages of this Reply such an heape of accusations as are here throwne upon us move us to present to the Reader a short view of such things as are unjustly and ungroundedly cast upon us and which wee cannot but thinke hath drawne a black cloud over the glory of the holy Discipline of Christ which hee hath here set up among us To omit the generall frame of this Reply in presenting our opinions and wayes to the people as if wee concurred generally with those of the Rigid separation and differed almost in every thing from such godly brethren as have breathed after puritie of Ordinances and Reformation To omit also the frequent inserting of such termes unto our questions and arguments contrary to the true state thereof which render every thing harst and full of rigidnesse to the eares of the Reader as have been observed by us And omitting also divers other suppositions and objections we shall onely desire those who have taken up evill thoughts concerning these Churches and the wayes of Christ wee walke in from this Reply to note
wee cannot understand but let this bee really made good that desiring seales it being a way that subjects themselves to the Church as members and the case will bee issued being understood of such approved Christians as the position speakes of Lastly to proceed against such as are not members or of another Church as with an offending member of our owne is not much unlike the proceedings of Victor in his contentious time or may sow the seeds of such usurpations which wee leave to the godly wise to consider of Reply Tenthly If upon good reason a passage of Scripture can bee cleared to prove that for which it was never alleadged by any writer wee are not to except against it for want of mans testimony onely in such cases our reasons must bee convincing but for the exposition of this Text wee have not observed one substantiall ground or approved author to bee alledged Dr. Ames shewing the necessitie of Christians joyning themselves to some peculiar Church giveth this reason Quoniam alias fieri non potest quin conturbentur signa illa quibus fideles ab infidelibus discerni possunt 1 Cor. 5. 12. But herein Dr. Ames manifestly sheweth that by them without heathens and unbeleevers must be understood and not beleevers though of no setled society for the time for thus wee conceive hee argueth The signes whereby the faithfull are to bee discerned from unbeleevers must not bee confounded but unlesse Christians make themselves actuall members of a Church the signes whereby the faithfull are discerned from unbeleevers will bee obscured and darkned and if this be his reason how can that Text bee alledged unlesse by men without infidels bee understood Answ First That we have reasons to alledge it in that sense and respect declared may appeare by our answers to your objections Secondly That wee have one approved authour so alleadging it viz. Doctor Ames shall appeare in cleering his meaning from your objections 1. Grant that by men without according to Doctor Ames his reason Infidels be understood by the Apostle yet how shall the signes discerning beleevers from unbeleevers bee confounded by such as joyne not to some particular Church if those beleevers doe not in some respect stand without amongst unbeleevers and the consequence is so plaine that the owne Syllogisme whereinto you cast his argument would have concluded so much if it had been suffered to speake out in the conclusion For in stead of saying except such joyne to some Church the signes will be darkned and obscured the reason rightly concluded would have said fieri non potest it cannot bee but the signes will bee confounded and therefore in his judgement it is unavoidable that such mix themselves with unbeleevers that are without indeed properly in the Apostles sense Reply Againe Doctor Ames lib. 4. cap. 17. speaking of Infants to be received saith it is required first that they be in the Covenant of Grace by outward profession c. Answ What you alledge here out of Doctor Ames wee confesse sheweth that hee was very large in his charity about the baptizing of Infants extending the same to the child of a Papist c. but it may seeme by some passages that hee understood by profession of faith such as live in the visible Churches and lookes at the child of a Papist as one of a visible Church for substance though so exceedingly corrupt but all this do not disprove that he understood 1 Cor. 5. 12. otherwise then hath been said What you alledge out of his second Manuduction concerning the Churches of England we consent unto neither doe wee deny seales to any if they demand them as members of any true Church in England and in an orderly way CHAP. X. Consid 5. Reply TO the first consideration If it bee repugnant to divine institution to admit of approved Christians lawfully baptized walking in the faith members of the visible Churches and partakers of Church priviledges amongst us to the Lords Supper or their children to baptisme because they bee not entered into Church-fellowship according to your order then it is unlawfull though no such evill consequences are to bee feared but if by accident some abuse should fall out the evill is to bee prevented by all lawfull meanes but the faithfull are not to be debarred utterly of the order of God whereto they have right and title by his free grant and gracious institution Answ Wee cannot but still complaine of this liberty which is taken in changing the termes of the question First that clause Members of visible Churches is not in the position nor is it maintained by us in that sense neither doe wee limit Church-fellowship to our order as it is called but acknowledge Churches defective in matters of order as was said in the answer and therefore it is an apparent wrong to us and to the readers so oft to put in such things as are not in the controversie Secondly If it bee unlawfull by divine institution may not evill consequences bee added and if both hold are not our reasons the more strong What needeth then such a Reply Thirdly We have oft granted a remote right but next and immediate we still deny and wee conceive no other order of God in his Churches to prevent such evils then by joyning to the instituted Churches of Christ Reply Seals may bee prophaned when the dispensers cannot helpe it but here is no feare or danger of such consequences necessary to follow for wee speake not of all sorts at randome but of Christians professing the faith intirely lawfully baptized knowne and approved to the wise and judicious visible members of the Churches amongst us sufficiently knowne to you or orderly recommended c. Answ The feare and danger in this case is more then so farre off can easily bee discerned though the limitations bee good in themselves yet the application of this description in the first part of it would open a doore wider then many can imagine for many such in the judgement even of the wisest comming in to this state of temptations prove farre otherwise even your selves being Judges if you were here wee suppose the experience of the discoveries God hath made in these late trials of England amongst forward professors will teach our brethren to consider how many professors may prove here Yet secondly if you add such as retaining their membership in your Churches are recommended unto us by your Churches or by known godly Ministers wee can then according to order receive them and avoid the confusion and inconveniences wee objected Thirdly if also it be taken into the description knowne and sufficiently approved of our selves then the doore is open to them to the communion of the Church and all the priviledges thereof though they cannot settle in the place of their present abode and this way of order would prevent the inconveniences but if wee come to put a difference any other way wee cannot avoid it but great offence will be given to
many and the inconveniences objected in some degree at least will follow here with us and it may be much more in some other places Reply You professe high respect to your brethren in Old England but it seemes you judge them insufficient to give you orderly testimony of the sincerity of approved Christians well known and living amongst them which two cannot well agree Answ This Position holds forth no such judgement of the insufficiency of our Brethren in the case neither have we shewed it by rejecting such orderly testimony that we know Reply Wee speake not of such who against light refuse to professe subjection to the Gospell of Christ or to joyne to some approved Church c. Answ Neither doe wee impute that to all that joyne not unto us but our meaning is that under such a description of approved Christians we shall bee necessitated to admit of some if not many such Reply No question but many have been admitted by the Church who in truth are much too light and some refused who are better deserving then they that cast them off Answ Bee it so that through personall failings and weaknesse of discerning it may and doe fall out sometimes yet this no way hinders but that all lawfull meanes to prevent the same may and ought to be used and this we may before the Lord professe that the purpose and desire of our hearts are as well to embrace the weakest humble Christian as to keepe out the proud Pharisee and wee have seen a gracious presence of Christ in his Churches blessing our indeavours therein whatsoever any discontented persons returning back may clamour to the contrary CHAP. XI Consid 6. Reply TO the sixt consideration this conclusion is not to the question propounded for wee speake of such as cannot not of such as refuse to joyne themselves to the Churches or if they doe not joyne it is not out of contempt or wilfull neglect but for lacke of opportunity or through their default that should admit them but doe not Answ The learned Authour here wholly mistakes the conclusion of this argument the conclusion is plaine and expressed with the ordinary note Ergo no christian can expect by the appointment of God to partake in the seales till he hath joyned himselfe in Church-fellowship and in the call of the Minister and this is fully to the question propounded and wee marveld it should not be observed but the last words of the answer should bee put in stead of it which are onely a secondary deduction from the former as an absurdity which may follow if the other be not granted And yet hence occasion is taken to charge us with injurious and tyrannical dealing toward such as are not admitted which we leave to the Lord to judge of and of us You say you accuse not the discretion of our Churches but impute it to the rashnesse of the zealous multitude but if it were so practised as is conceived the Churches and their guides should shew little wisedome and faithfulnesse to the Lord and the soules of his people Reply When a reason is demanded of your judgement why you debarre approved Christians from the seales and we dislike it you should put this note upon them as if against light they refused orderly to subject themselves to the Gospell of Christ What warrant you have thus to censure what use of this manner of dispute we leave it to your godly wisedome to judge Answ Wee are heartily sorry that this reverend man of God out of a meere and palpable mistake of the conclusion of the dispute should runne out to condemne us for so much censoriousnesse of others without cause whether our manner of dispute bee here so without use wee leave to the judicious reader to judge And that wee are far from such censures of godly approved Christians amongst us wee can approve our selves to God and the consciences of many that live amongst us wee doe not say that all who doe not joyne with us doe refuse against light yet wee finde it true too oft that forward professors in England here discover evidently an heart refusing against light to submit to Gods ordinances and therefore wee had cause to say it were unreasonable such should have equall liberty with others Reply In the consideration it selfe there are many propositions couched to be examined the first That none have power to dispense seales but such as are called to the Ministry is freely granted The second That no man can be so called till there bee a Church to call him needeth explication For by the Church you must understand the community of the faithfull as they are one body without officers and such a Church there cannot be without a ministry to call and admit them into Church fellowship Answ This consideration shines with such clearenesse that an impartiall eye may easily see that the truth by sundry diverticula is rather clouded then the argument fairely answered This second proposition being too plaine to bee denied interpretations are sought but they are rather objections to which wee shall answer in order First though wee grant the Lord ordinarily gathered Churches by the ministry of men in Office as the Apostles Evangelists c. yet not alwayes so as is evident Acts 11. 20 21. The story of Waldus is well knowne and we suppose you will grant those Waldenses the name of a true Church Origen when hee was not allowed of the Church to bee a Ministes yet converted many who died Martyrs The story also of Frumentius is well known with divers others Secondly Ministers by Office are of two sorts either such as are called immediatly or mediatly such as were immediatly and extraordinarily called were before Churches and were called together and begin Churches as the Apostles Matth. 28. 20. Act. 1. 8. But all ordinary officers that are to administer in a Church doe necessarily presuppose a Church to call them unlesse any will adventure to say in plaine English that the calling of a Minister may bee without the antecedent election of the people and then wee shall finde what to Reply Reply The Apostles baptized not themselves but by the helpe of others and those not called of the people to baptize 1 Cor. 1. 17. Answ Bee it so that in Corinth Paul baptized not many but by others yet first we demand By whom did Paul and the Apostles baptize It was either by Evangelists and so it is all one as if the Apostles as extraordinary officers did it or by the Pastors newly chosen and ordained in the Churches newly gathered who might baptize the rest and then the Church was before such officers or else by private persons which is denyed expresly in the Reply to the first proposition Reply The Apostles appointed by election Elders in every City or Church and so there was a Church before Elders but this Church was a society of beleevers by Baptisme admitted into Church fellowship and therefore there must be Ministers to