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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	great_a	lord_n	year_n	6,316	5	4.5357	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63200	A tryall of the nevv-church vvay in New-England and in old ... by that learned and godly minister of Christ, John Ball of Whitmore ; penned a little before his death and sent over to the New England ministers, anno 1637, as a reply to an answer of theirs in justification of the said positions ... ; now published ... by William Rathband and Simeon Ash.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Rathband, William, d. 1695.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662. Letter of many ministers in old England requesting the judgement of their reverend bretheren in New England.	1644 (1644)	Wing T2229; ESTC R20975	106,044	100

A TRYALL OF THE NEVV-CHVRCH VVAY IN NEW-ENGLAND AND IN OLD Wherein are handled these Questions following 1. Whether a stinted forme of Prayer and set Liturgie be unlawfull 2. Whether it be unlawfull to joyne in Prayer or receive the Sacraments where a stinted Liturgie is used 3. Whether the children of godly and approved Christians be not to be baptized till their parents be set-members of some particular Congregation 4. Whether the parents themselves being of approved pietie ought not to be received to the Lords Supper untill they be first admitted as set-members 5. Whether the power of Excommunication c. be so in the body of the Church that what the major part shall allow that must be done though the Pastors and Governors and part of the Assembly be of another minde and peradventure upon more substantiall reasons 6. Whether those that are admitted as set-members ought not to depart or remove without the consent of that Congregation whereof they are members 7. Whether a Minister be so a Minister to a particular Congregation that if they dislike or leave him he utterly ceaseth to be a Minister 8. Whether a Minister may not performe ministeriall acts to another Congregation then his owne 9. Whether members of one Congregation may not communicate in another By that learned and godly Minister of CHRIST JOHN BALL of Whitmore Penned a little before his death and sent over to the New England Ministers Anno 1637. As a reply to an Answer of theirs in justification of the said Positions Now published by occasion mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader following in the next page upon the desire of many godly and faithfull Ministers in and about the Citie of London who love and seek the truth By WILLIAM RATHBAND and SIMEON ASH 1 Thes 5. 21. Prove all things hold fast that which is good LONDON Printed by T. Paine and M. Simmons for Thomas Vnderhill in Great Wood-street 1644. To the Reader Good Reader VPon the receipt of the Answer returned unto the Nine Positions Master Ball moved by the request of Brethren drew up this reply which upon perusall and joynt approbation was directed unto the reverend Elders of the severall Churches in New England The Reply sent miscarrying in the hand to which it was committed though both Letters and printed Bookes trusted in the same hand were delivered Hereupon another Copie was from New England desired and accordingly prepared in the yeare following In the meane time the Answer being tendered to the Presse it was judged more meete to keepe the Reply in readinesse to attend the publishing of the Answer then to part with it in the other way This intelligence was the last yeare conveyed into New England since which time there hath been an expectation to see that in Print which now is sent abroad to open view By this Relation it is manifest who are voluntiers and who are pressed to come forth as defendants in these Controversies These differences betwixt the loving Brethren of old England and New had not been made thus notorious if some who cry up the Church way in New England as the only way of God had not been forward to blow them abroad in the world But surely the providence of God is remarkeable in bringing these questions into debate at this time when the Ministers of the Gospell from all the Counties in the Kingdome are called together by both houses of Parliament to consult about the healing of our breaches which are very many and dangerous The Copie of this Reply being committed to our custodie we are necessitated to appeare in the publication of it yet we shall preface nothing concerning the Treatise it selfe because our known respects to the reverend and judicious Author will render us partiall and our testimony can adde no credit to his works which withall indifferent Readers will plead sufficiently for their own acceptance If this discourse shall adde any discovery of light unto them who desire a sound judgement in the controversies here agitated our end is obtained and our prayers answered who are Thy Servants in and for the truth Simeon Ash William Rathband The Letter of those Ministers in England who requested to know the judgement of their Brethren in New England in Nine positions wherein the reasons of this their request are truly reported Reverend and beloved Brethren WHiles we lived together in the same Kingdome we professed the same faith joyned in the same Ordinances laboured in the worke of God to gaine soules unto his kingdome and maintained the puritie of worship against corruptions both on the right hand and on the left But since your departure into New England we heare and partly beleeve it that divers have embraced certaine vain opinions such as you disliked formerly and we judge to be groundlesse and unwarrantable As that a stinted forme of prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull That it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer or to receive the Sacrament where a stinted Liturgie is used 3. That the children of godly and approved Christians are not to be Baptized untill their parents bee set members of some perticular congregation 4. that the Parents themselves though of approved piety are not to be received to the Lords Supper untill they bee admitted as set members 5. That the power of Excommunication c. is so in the body of the Church that what the major part shall allow that must be done though the Pastors and Governors and part of the assembly be of another minde and peradventure upon more substantiall reasons 6. That none are to be admitted as set members but they must promise not to depart or remove unless the Congregation will give leave 7. That a Minister is so a Minister to a particular Congregation that if they dislike him unjustly or leave him he ceaseth to be a Minister 8. That a Minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another Cogregation 9. That members of one Congregation may not communicate in another These and other such like which we omit to reckon up are written and reported to be the common Tenents in New England which are received with great applause maintained with great confidence and applauded as the only Church way wherein the Lord is to be worshipped And letters from New England have so taken with divers in many parts of this Kingdome that they have left our Assemblies because of a stinted Liturgie and excommunicated themselves from the Lords Supper because such as are not debarred from it And being turned aside themselves they labour to ensnare others to the griefe of the godly the scandall of Religion the wounding of their owne soules if they did advisedly consider the matter and great advantage of them that are wily to espy and ready to make use of all advantages to prejudice the truth Beloved brethren if you stood in our places we are well assured it would be no small griefe unto you to beare and see the people led aside to the disgrace

together in Church-fellowship and have called a Pastor to feed and watch over them wee desire not words but proofe why the poore dispersed Christians wanting means or opportunitie to joyn themselves together into societie ought not to desire and that others be not bound in conscience to afford them the comfort of Gods ordinances If the Propositions may stand for good I feare we shall scarce finde that ever in ordinary way the Sacraments were lawfully dispenced or received in the Christian Churches of God since the first foundation of them Now the premises being liable to so many exceptions the conclusion to be laid upon them will fall of it selfe And thereunto wee oppose the direct contrary That Infidels converted to the faith or godly Christians formerly visible beleevers knowne and approved members of Congregations professing the intire faith and joyning together in the lawfull use of the Sacraments for substance according to the Institution may and ought to desire and expect the Seales of the Covenant to be dispenced to them and to their seede though for the present they be not joyned into such Church-state and call of Ministers as you require Answer 7. Consideration THat our practise may not be censured as novell and singular give us leave to produce a President of the like care observed and approved by publick countenance of State in the dayes of Edward 6. of blessed and famous memory who in the yeare 1550. granted Johannes Alasco a learned Noble man of Poland under the great Seale of England libertie to gather a Church of strangers in London and to order themselves according as they should finde to be most agreeable to the Scriptures Among other godly orders established in that Church that which concerned the Administration of Baptisme to prevent the prophanation of it we will repeate in Alascoes owne words Baptisme in our Church saith he is administred in the publique Assembly of the Church after the publique Sermon for seeing Baptisme doth so belong to the whole Church that none ought to be driven thence which is a member of the Church nor to be admitted to it who is not a member of it truely it is equall that that should be performed publiquely in the Assembly of the whole Church which belongs to the whole Church in common Againe he addeth Now seeing our Churches are by Gods blessing so established by the Kings Majestie that they may be as it were one parish of strangers dispersed throughout the whole Citie or one body corporate as it is called in the Kings grant and yet all strangers doe not joyne themselves to our Church yea there are those who while they avoyde all Churches will pretend to the English Churches that they are joyned with us and to us that they are joyned to the English Churches and so doe abuse both them and us lest the English Churches and the Ministers thereof should be deceived by the impostures of such men and that under colour of our Churches wee doe baptize their Infants alone who have adjoyned themselves to our Churches by publique confession of their faith and observation of Ecclesiasticall discipline And that our Churches may be certaine that the Infants that are to be baptized are their seede who have joyned themselves thereto in manner aforesaid the father of the Infant to be baptized if possible he can or other men and women of notable credit in the Church doe offer the Infant to Baptisme and doe publickly professe that it is the seede of the Church yet wee suffer no stranger to offer Infants to Baptisme in our Churches who hath not made publique profession of his faith and willingly submitted himselfe to the Discipline of the Church lest otherwise they who present their children to Baptisme might in time plead that they belong to our Churches and so should deceive the English Churches and their Ministers To those which presented Infants to Baptisme they propounded three questions the first was Are these Infants which yee offer the seed of this Church that they may lawfully be here baptized by our Ministery c. Answer Yea. This Instance is the more to be regarded because Alasco affirmeth in the preface of that Book that this libertie was by the King granted to them out of his desire to settle alike reformation in the English Churches which in effect you see the same with out practise in this particular Reply THe practise of the Church of strangers in London recorded by John Alasco is farre different from your judgement and practise not in some by-circumstances but in the maine point in question for your judgement is that true visible beleevers baptized and partakers of the Lords Supper in other Churches not yet gathered into Church-estate or fellowship have no right or interest in the Seales they nor their seede But this Church of strangers held no such opinion as their own words which you have omitted doe plainly speake And Paul testifyeth say they that by Christs Ordinance the Church it selfe without exception of any member of it is to be accounted cleane or holy by the ministery of Baptisme Whence we may easily see that Baptisme doth neither belong to those who are altogether without the Church nor to be denyed to any member of the Church Secondly They held communion with the Church of England as one and the same with theirs For so they professe Yet neverthelesse that we may openly shew that the English Churches and ours are one and the same Church though we differ somewhat from them both in language and Ceremonies We doe not refuse that the English may as publick witnesses of the Church offer the Infants of our members to Baptisme in our Churches if they have both the use of our language and a certain testimony of their piety As in like manner our members are accustomed to offer the Infants of the English to Baptisme in the English Churches If your judgement be this of the English Churches your judgement in acknowledging us members of true Churches and practise in debarring visible beleevers and their seede from the Seales are opposite the one to the other Thirdly This order was observed by them to prevent the impostures of some who whilst they avoyded all Churches pretended to the English that they were joyned to the strangers and to the strangers that they were joyned to the English But you debarre knowne Christians who desire to joyne themselves with you not to prevent impostures of them who avoyde all Churches yea you debarre them as men having no right to the Sacraments because they be not in Church-fellowship and herein you can shew no president ancient or moderne either from Scripture or Monuments of the Church And as your practise is without example so without warrant from the word of God And this is the maine reason why we cannot consent unto you in this particular which we thus propound 1 Reason THat sacred order which God hath set in his visible Church for all his Saints to