our said Lord the King and the Body of the City aforesaid upon their Oaths present that at the Session of our Soveraign Lord the King holden for the County of Middlesex at Hick's Hall in St. John's Street in the County aforesaid on Monday to wit 16 Deaem in the year of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth before Sir Reginald Forster Baronet Sir Philip Matthews Baronet Sir William Bowls Knight Sir Charles Pitfield Knight Thomas Robinson Humphrey Wyrley Thomas Hariott and William Hempson Esquires Justices of the said Soveraign Lord the King to enquire by the Oath of Honest and Lawful Men of the County of Middlesex aforesaid and by other Ways manners means by which they might better know as well within Liberties as without by whom the Truth of the matter may be better known and enquired of whatsoever Treasons Misprisions of Treasons Insurrections Rebellions Counterfeitings Clippings washings and false makings of the Money of this Kingdom of England and of other Kingdoms and Dominions whatsoever and of whatsoever Murders Felonies Man-slaughters Killings Burglaries and other Articles and Offences in the Letters Pattents of our said Soveraign Lord the King to them or any four or more of them therefore directed specified as also the Accessaries of the same within the County aforesaid as well within Liberties as without by whomsoever howsoever had made done or committed and the said Treasons and other the Premises to hear and determine according to the Law and Custom of this Kingdom of England being assigned by the Oath of Ralph Wain John Vaughan Richard Foster Thomas Paget Robert Newington Henry Tompkins Robert Hays John Greenwood Peter Stimpson Josias Crosley Richard Richman Augustine Bear John King Nathaniel Brett Francis Fisher and Samuel Linn Honest and Lawful Men of the County aforesaid sworn and charged to enquire for our said Soveraign Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid upon their Oaths It was presented that Thomas White otherwise Whitebread late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Clerk William Ireland late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Fenwick late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk Thomas Pickering of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Grove of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Gent. as false Traitors against the most Illustrious Serene and most excellent Prince our said late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Their Supreme and Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in their Hearts nor weighing the Duty of their Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil The Cordial Love and True and Natural Obedience which faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly withdrawing and contriving and with all their Might intending the Peace and Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by Law established to subvert and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the Cordial Love and true and due Obedience which Faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards him the said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put the four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly and trayterously did purpose compass Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said late Lord the King from the Regal State Title Power and Government of his Kingdom of Enggland utterly to deprive depose cast down and dis-inherit and him our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the said Kingdom and the sincere Religion of God rightly by the Laws of the said Kingdom established at their Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingom of England throughout all its parts well instituted and ordain'd wholly to subvert and destroy and war against our said late Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to levy and those their most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fullfil and perfect They the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove other false Traytors to the Jurors not known the said four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our said late Soveraign Lord the King the Thirtieth with Force and Arms c. at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously did assemble themselves unite and meet together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously did consult and agree our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion within this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the sooner to fulfil and perfect their said most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and purposes they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove and other false Traytors of our said late Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same 24th day of April in the said 30th year of our said late Soverain Lord the King at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously among themselves did conclude and agree that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering John Grove him the said late Soveraign Lord the King should kill and murder and that they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors to the Jurors unknown A certain number of Masses between them then and there agreed for the Health of the Soul of him the said Thomas Pickering therefore should say Celebrate and perform and therefore should pay unto the said John Grove a certain Sum of Money between them then and there agreed and the Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath aforesaid did
and the three and twentieth of April New Stile I saw the Prisoner at St. Omers and went to School with him and on the four and twentieth I came from St. Omers and went to Callis and from thence into England but he was never in my Company all the while I was coming for England though he swore he came over with me L. C. J. The three and twentieth of April you say you saw him Mr. Hilsley Yes I was with him that was the day before I came from St. Omers L. C. J. You left him there the day before you came away you say Mr. Hilsley I did not see him that morning that I came away but here are others that did Mr. Att. Gen. Was he a Scholar there Mr. Hilsley Yes my Lord he was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know him very well Mr. Hilsley Yes my Lord I did Mr. Att. Gen. Did he come over into England with you Mr. Hilsley My Lord I came from St. Omers to Callis and never saw him from Callis to Dover I never saw him from Dover to London I never saw him all the way and I am confident he was not in the same Ship I came over in for I should have seen him if he had Mr. Att. Gen. Was he for some time before that constantly at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley Yes we went perpetually to School together L. C. J. What time did you take shipping after you went from St. Omers Mr. Hilsley The very next day the day I went from St. Omers was on the Sunday morning on Monday I took shipping from Callis to Dover and I arrived at England at ten of the Clock the same Night Oates When does he say he arrived in England L. C. J. He says he went from St. Omers on the Sunday he came that Night to Callis and the next day went on Board from Callis and came that Night to Dover that was Monday night Mr. Hilsley Yes I came that Night to Dover and I lay there that Monday Night the next day was the 26th of April New Stile Mr. Att. Gen. Where come you then from thence Mr. Hilsley I came as far as Bockton Street and there I lay 4 or 5 days and then I came to Cittenbourn and by long Sea from thence to London Mr. Att. Gen. Where did you meet Mr. Burnaby Mr. Hilsley I met him hard by there at a Relations of mine Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember what day you met him Mr. Hilsley I think it was a day or two before I came away from thence to London Mr. Just Withens Had you any Discourse with Mr. Oates about your coming into England Mr. Hilsley Nothing at all Sir Francis that I remember L. C. J. What time did you come to London Mr. Hilsley I came within a few days to London I stayed 4 or 5 days there by the way and I saw Mr. Burnaby within 4 days I think after I came into England It was about Monday seven-night after I came from St. Omers that I came to London Mr. Att. Gen. That was May New Stile Mr. Hilsley That is their Stile It was so Mr. Soll. Gen. In our Stile it was the 21. of April Mr. Hanseys Pray did you give an account to any Body after you came to London that you left Oates at St. Omers when you came away Mr. Hilsley What say you Mr. Hanseys I did not well understand your Question L. C. J. Then mind me Sir It was asked of you whether you had any discourse with any Body after you came hither that you had left Mr. Oates behind you at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I did tell some Persons I left an English Parson there at the same time I came away L. C. J. Did you not name him who it was Mr. Hilsley Yes I named him by the Name he went by there and that was Sampson Lucy Mr. Att. Gen. To whom did you tell it Mr. Hilsley To one Mr. Osbourn Mr. Soll. Gen. Did he go by that Name of Sampson Lucy in the Colledge Mr. Hilsley Yes he did sometimes he had three or four Names he was called sometimes Titus Ambrosius Oates Now my Lord I desire I may ask that Gentleman a Question or two L. C. J. Ay if they have done with him Mr. Att. Gen. We have my Lord. L. C. J. Then ask him what you will Oates I desire my Lord that you would be pleased to ask that Gentleman what Religion he is of for it is a fair Question and an equitable one And that which very nearly concerns me and I desire to know where he lives L. C. J. What Religion are you of Sir Mr. Hilsley I am a Roman Catholick L. C. J. Where do you live Mr. Hilsley I live in London I am of the Inner Temple L. C. J. He says that he is a Roman Catholick and lives in London Oates Pray be pleased my Lord to ask him when he went to St. Omers first and how long he stayed there Mr. Hilsley My Lord I was there about six years I presume it was about the year 1672. when I went there first Oates Pray ask him what he did there what was his business Mr. Att. Gen. That is not a pertinent Question at all with submission my Lord. Oates I beseech you Mr. Attorney give me leave to ask my own Questions L. C. J. Ay but you must ask fair and pertinent Questions Oates My Lord I would know what was his employment there at St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I know not my self of any particular employment I had any more than any of the rest that were there L. C. J. But Mr. Oates you must not ask any such Questions what know I but by asking him the Question you may make him obnoxious to some Penalty you must not ask him any Questions to ensnare him Oates My Lord it tends very much to my Defence to have that Question truly answered L. C. J. But if it tends to your Defence never so much you must not subject him to a Penalty by your Questions Oates The nature of my Defence requires an answer to that Question L. C. J. But shall you make a man liable to punishment by ensnaring Questions if a man should ask you what Religion you are of Oates My Lord I will tell you by and by my reason and I hope a good one why I ask it L. C. J. I do not believe you can have any Reason but to be sure we must not suffer any such entangling Questions to be asked Oates Pray ask him my Lord when I came to St. Omers L. C. J. When did Oates come to St. Omers Mr. Hilsley As well as I remember he came to St. Omers either the latter end of November or the beginning of December in the year 1677. I think it was that year Oates I defire you would ask him whether they were not Priests and Jesuites that govern'd that House L. C. J. What a Question is that I tell you 't is not fit to be asked Oates
I demand an answer to it upon the Oath he has taken L. C. J. And I tell you upon the Oath you have taken you are not bound to answer any such Question Oates Good my Lord let my Questions be answered L. C. J. No Sir they shall not How now do not think to put Irregularities upon us if you will behave your self as you ought to do and keep to that which is proper well and good Oates If your Lordship please I think this very proper for me L. C. J. What to ask such improper Questions as these are Oates Truly my Lord I think they are fit Questions to be asked L. C. J. But we are all of another opinion Oates My Lord I desire to know whether they are not set on by their Superiours to do this L. C. J. That is not a fair Question neither Oates Give me leave to make my defence my Lord I beseech you L. C. J. Ay in Gods name but I pray you then make it in a regular and becoming way for I know of no Priviledge you have more than other People to use Witnesses as you do Oates My Lord I look upon my self as hardly used in the case L. C. J. I care not what you look upon your self to be if you will ask Questions ask none but fair Questions and while you keep within Bounds you shall be heard as well as any of the Kings Subjects but if you will break out into Questions that are impertinent extravagant or ensnaring we must correct you and keep you within proper Limits Oates Then my Lord I ask whether he was not a Witness at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and at Langhorn's Tryal L. C J. Ay that is a proper Question what say you to 't Sir Mr. Hilsley I was so Sir Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Credit he received at those Tryals L. C. J. What a Question is that to ask any man Oates My Lord I think it is a fair Question L. C. J. No indeed it is not a fair one at all Oates My Lord I desire to know what induces him to come here as a Witness now since it appears that now he comes to give an Evidence that he gave six years ago and was not believed Mr. Hilsley My Lord I am subpoena'd L. C. J. He has given you an answer to the Question though I think it was an idle Question and not at all to the purpose Oates It may be he may have some particular reason to induce him to it now L. C. J. Well he tells you he came because he was subpoena'd and that is sufficient He is not compellable to be a Witness unless he be subpoena'd but if a man will come without a Subpoena and give Evidence in a Cause that is no objection to his testimony Oates My Lord I desire to know of him whether he is to have any Reward for swearing in this Cause L. C. J. What say you Sir are you to have any Reward for your Evidence Mr. Hilsley None at all as I know of my Lord I assure you Mr. Just Withens He is not paid for his Evidence Mr. Oates Oates If he be or be not I cannot tell nor do I know who ever was paid for it L. C. J. Have you any more Questions to ask him Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what was the occasion of his coming away from St. Omers Mr. Hilsley I had finished my Studies Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him if he never heard of any Consult of the Jesuites here in England in the Month of April 78. and from whom he did hear of it Mr. Hilsley I did hear of it among the rest of the Students of the Colledge L. C. J. What did you hear of Mr. Hilsley I did hear of a Consult of ahe Fathers in April 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Yes there was but not such an one as Mr. Oates speaks of nor was he at it Mr. J. Holloway For what was that Consult I pray you Mr. Hilsley It was nothing but a Triennial Congregation about the Affairs of the Society L. C. J. What were they to do there Mr. Hilsley My Lord I was informed among them there that it was only what they used to have once in 3 years for ordinary Affairs Oates My Lord he pretends to tell when I came thither I desire to know of him from what time it was he saw me there and how often Mr. Hilsley Generally every day as near as I can remember I think Mr. Oates you and I Mr. Oates went to School in the same place Oates Pray how many days was I absent from thence in that time you were there Mr. Hilsley You were there generally as often as I I do not know whether ever you mist a day or no. Oates Pray my Lord will you ask this Gentleman one question more whether he can particularly tell that he did see me every day at St. Omers For 't is not enough for him to swear that he saw me there but he ought to give an account how he comes to know it by some particular Circumstances L. C. J. He has given you several Circumstances of his Knowledge for he says he was there all the while from your coming till 23d of April New Stile that he came for England he says he was a Scholar in the same Form and Class with you and because he does not remember himself to have been absent he does not remember you to be absent neither Mr. Att. Gen. And he swears particularly to the very time he came over which was April 14th Old Stile Oates Well I have no more Questions to ask this Gentleman L. C. J. Then call another Mr. Soll. Gen. Cryer call Mr. John Dorrel who was sworn L. C. J. Look ye Mr. Attorney you did open things at the first for Methods sake by Periods of time the first was Hilsleys coming over the next was the meeting with Bournaby now pray observe that Method and call that Bournaby next Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we shall call him by and by but we have not done with this business about Hilsley we have some Witnesses that will give an Evidence to strengthen and back his Testimony Come Mr. Dorrel what have you to say to this matter Mr. Dorrel My Lord in April 1678. I came from Brussels to England where presently after I came I was with one Mr. Osbourn and my Mother and there was a Discourse between my Mother and him about Religion L. C. J. Where was that Mr. Dorrel It was here in England Mr. Att. Gen. Now tell the time when that was Mr. Dorrel As near as I can guess it was 15 or 16 of April Old Stile in the year 1678. Mr. Att. Gen. Well Sir go on with your Story Mr. Dorrel My Mother was laughing at his Religion and telling him some ridiculous Stories and he replyed there are a great many that are so ignorant that are bred up in the Religion of the Church
Gen. Did you observe him to be in the Hall or at the Exercises Mr. Doddington Yes I saw him several times Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember the time Mr. Hilsley went away Mr. Doddington Yes it was a little after Easter and I do remember that two or three days after I went into the Infirmary and saw Mr. Oates there and had discourses with him Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Bournaby's coming to St. Omers and when was it Mr. Doddington Yes the first of May Mr. Bournaby came to St. Omers and the next day I saw Oates with him and for ten or twelve daies successively they were in one anothers company and then of a sudden the Correspondence broke off but I know not upon what account L. C. J. Was he Reader there as you remember Mr. Doddington I do remember he did Read in the Sodality L. C. J. When was that Mr. Doddington I remember he Read at Shrovetide Oates Did you hear me Read there Mr. Doddington Yes that I did Sir Oates Were you of the Sodality Mr. Doddington Yes I was Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember the time when he came away from St. Omers Mr. Doddington It was about Midsummer my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Were you out of the Colledge your self at any time when he was there Mr. Doddington No I was not L C. J. Come I will ask you a plain Question Was he so long at any time out of the Colledge as to come to London and stay here two or three daies and come back again Mr. Doddington My Lord he was so Remarkable by his Stories and Ridiculous Actions and falling out with every one of the Colledge that if he had been absent we must needs have missed him L. C. J. Did you miss him at any time Mr. Doddington My Lord I never miss'd him but one day L. C. J. When was that Mr. Doddington They said he was gone to Watton L. C. J. What time was that Mr. Doddington In January about six weeks after he came first Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Doddington I am a Roman Catholick Oats And a Scholar of St. Omers L. C. J. Make your Remarks by and by Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Doddington By the Name of Hollis my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord ask him how long he was Resident there Mr. Doddington Near upon five years Oates Pray my Lord ask him the occasion of his coming over at first Mr. Doddington I had business in England and I had a mind to see my Friends Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he did not pretend at the five Jesuits Tryal that he came over upon the King's Proclamation to call home those that were in the Seminaries L. C. J. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Doddington Yes I was but if I came over upon the King's Proclamation what hurt is there in that L. C. J. None at all as I know of Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he did return again to St. Omers or no. Mr. Doddington My Lord I pass'd by St. Omers once but I never stay'd a day in the Colledge since Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him whether he ever heard of a Consult of the Jesuits in April 78. Mr. Doddington I did hear of a Congregation Oates Call it a Consult or a Congregation it is all one L. C. J. He says he did hear of it Oats Ask him by whom he did hear of it Mr. Doddington I saw the Provincial when he came back from England Oates Who was that Provincial what was his Name Mr. Doddington Mr. Whitebread Oates Was not Mr. Whitebread a Resident sometimes at St. Omers Mr. Doddington Yes a while he was Oates Pray was not that House under his Government Mr. Doddington My Lord I can give no account of that but it is generally under the Government of the Rector of St. Omers Mr. Hanseys Pray Sir give me leave to ask you one Question Mr. Oates speaks of Mr. Whitebread Pray how did Mr. Whitebread use Oates when he came back from England Mr. Doddington I heard say he did check him very severely for his many miscarriages L. C. J. He heard it he says but he does not know it of his own knowledge that is no Evidence Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray swear Mr. William Gerrard which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Were you at St. Omers Mr. Gerrard in the years 77. and 78 Mr. Gerrard Yes I was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know Mr. Oates there Mr. Gerrard Where is he Sir Mr. Att. Gen. There he is in that corner do you know him Mr. Gerrard Yes Mr. Att. Gen. When came he to St. Omers Mr. Gerrard He came to St. Omers in the year of our Lord 77. and he went away in June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Was he there all the time Mr. Gerrard I never remembred to have miss'd him but only once when he went to Watton for a night Mr. Att. Gen. By what Tokens do you remember him at any time there in April or May Mr. Gerrard The second of May we had a Play and he was there then and I remember the 26th of May he was confirmed and so was I it being St. Augustin's day and in the Refectory he had a Table by himself and I used alwaies at meal-times to pass by that Table and make a Bow to the Fathers above before I sate down at Table and I do not remember that ever he was absent and if he had I should surely have miss'd him L. C. J. When was St. Augustin's day that you say you and he were confirm'd Mr. Gerrard It was the 26th of May. Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember him in April there Mr. Gerrard I cannot tell any particular circumstance in April but I do not remember to have miss'd him at all in April Mr. Sol. Gen. But you saw him there the second of May you say Mr. Gerrard Yes I did so and the 26th of May. Oates The 26th of May Old Style I was there my Lord. L. C. J. Ay but he says the 26th of May New Style Oates I was not there then my Lord. L. C. J. He swears you were Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray between the second and 27th of May New Style was he absent from St. Omers at any time Mr. Gerrard I never remember to have miss'd him at all in that time Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Pool's and Mr. Hilsley's going away Mr. Gerrard I do remember Mr. Hilsley's and Mr. Pool's going away but I cannot speak particularly and exactly what time that was L. C. J. Is it usual to have Scholars go away without being miss'd Mr. Gerrard No my Lord and he had a particular place by himself Oates Pray ask him my Lord how he came to know that I went away in June Mr. Gerrard We miss'd him in his place then and 't was discoursed of all over the Town that when the Provincial
came he was to be dismiss'd Oates I desire to know what Religion this Gentleman is of Mr. Gerrard My Lord I am a Roman Catholick Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Gerrard By the Name of William Clovell Oates Pray my Lord ask him when he went to St. Omers and how long he was Resident there Mr. Gerrard I came there about two years before he came and was there about two years after he went away Oats Pray my Lord ask him whether he came directly for England when he left St. Omers Mr. Gerrard No my Lord I was four years in Low Germany and France and came into England the last year Oates Pray Sir were you a Witness at the five Jesuits Tryal or at Langhorns Tryal Mr. Gerrard No I was not I came but last year to England I tell you Oates Pray my Lord ask this Gentleman whether he did not know or hear of a Consult of Jesuits that was to be in April 78. and from whom he heard it Mr. Gerrard My Lord I know it is the Custom of the Fathers of that Order to have a Congregation once in three years about the Affairs of their Society but then no Person is admitted to be one of that Congregation but them that have been eighteen years Jesuits and he not having been so much as a Novice I know not how if he had been here he could have been present at it L. C. J. He says that there us'd to be a Triennial Congregation for the Business of the Society but you could not be present at it because you had not been eighteen years a Jesuit Mr. Gerrard An. decimo octavo Currente is the word of the Rule Oates Pray my Lord ask him this Question how he knows that to be the Rule Mr. Gerrard You or any man may Read them in their Books L. C. J. It seems he has Read them and he says you must pass through eighteen years before you be admitted of the Congregation and he believes you were not there for you were not capable of so much as a Noviceship Oates I desire your Lordship to ask him whether or no he heard me Read in the Sodality Mr. Gerrard Yes I did Oates Were you of the Sodality Mr. Gerrard Yes I was Oates Pray my Lord ask him what Oaths are there taken before they be admitted into the Sodality L. C. J. No by no means I will not do it Oates Why my Lord may not I ask it to shew what kind of men these are L. C. J. No indeed it is but the same Question again that I told you before is not to be asked for it may make him liable to a Penalty if you come to be a Witness no man should ask you a Question that might make you obnoxious to a Penalty no more must you ask them any such Questions Oates I have done with him my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Where is my Lord Gerrard of Bromeley Lord Gerrard Here I am Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord do you remember Mr. Oates at St. Omers in the year 77. and 78 Lord Gerrard He was disguised in another Habit and another colour'd Perriwig the Hair was blacker than that he has on now but I remember his Face very well and know him again by the Tone of his Voice which was very remarkable but I never remember that he was absent from St. Omers after he came thither I remember his coming exactly which was about Christmas nor did I ever hear that he was absent till June 78. New Style when he went away Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember my Lord when Mr. Bournaby came Lord Gerrard I do remember Mr. Bournaby's coming but what time it was I cannot exactly tell L. C. J. Is my Lord Gerrard sworn Mr. Sol. Gen. I think so Lord Gerrard No my Lord I am not sworn L. C. J. You must be sworn my Lord which was done now if you be pleased to ask my Lord any Questions do Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we desire to know of my Lord Gerrard of Bromeley whether he knew Mr. Oates at St. Omers Lord Gerrard My Lord I remember he came in 77. as I take it it was the beginning of December and never heard he was absent or miss'd till June 78. I remember particularly upon the 25th of March there was a new Lector to be Reader of the Sodality and Mr. Oates desiring it he was appointed to Read I was there my self and I never miss'd him I heard him Read that I do remember several Sundays and Holidays and never knew him absent any one however for five or six weeks he was constant at Reading and I can the better remember it because he had a particular Cant in his Tone which all men may know which ever conversed with him Mr. Sol. Gen. If Oates please to ask my Lord Gerrard any Questions he may Lord Gerrard Pray my Lord let me speak a word or two more L. C. J. Ay my Lord pray go on Lord Gerrard I remember I heard Mr. Oates was at the Confirmation which was upon St. Austins day there was a Confirmation by a Catholick Bishop about the 26 of May New Style I Remember I heard Mr. Oates was there and the Bishop did particularly note him as a person of elder years than the rest of the Students L. C. J. Do you know this my Lord of your own knowledge Lord Gerrard I do my Lord. L. C. J. Because you say you heard it Lord Gerrard My Lord further I remember this when the News of the Plot being discovered by Oates came to St. Omers where he went by the name of Sampson Lucy and sometimes Titus Ambrosius it was wondered by all the Scholars that knew him there how he came to be so impudent to pretend that he was at such a Consult the 24th of April 78. when all the Colledge saw him every day in April and May at St. Omers as much as a man can be seen in a Family and was never known to be absent so much as one day besides my Lord 't is a thing as generally noted as a thing can be that no Scholar goes away from or comes to the Colledge of St. Omers but it is particularly known to the whole house It is the Common News and Discourse as much as any new occurrences is here about the Town Mr. Sol. Gen. If Oates be pleased to ask him any questions he may Oates My Lord I desire this Noble Lord may be ask'd a question or two I do not Remember his Lordship there Lord Gerrard I do very well remember the man by particular Remarques Oates Yes my Lord you have occasion to remember me and so have your whole Party Pray my Lord let my Lord Gerrard be ask'd what name his Lordship went by at St. Omers Lord Gerrard Mr. Oates I am not difficult in telling the name I went by there It was Clovel Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what Religion his
saw him Confirm'd Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Hilsley's going away Mr. Arundel I do not remember the time particularly but I do remember Mr. Oates was actually there then Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember when Mr. Bournaby came to St. Omers Mr. Arundel No I do not remember the time but he was there then too Mr. Sol. Gen. Do you remember when Mr. Poole went away Mr. Arundel No I cannot tell what day it was but he was there at the time of his going away upon my Oath Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you tell any other particular time Mr. Arundel The 11th of May New Style there was an Action exhibited in the Colledge L. C. J. Was Oates there then Mr. Arundel To the best of my remembrance he was L. C. J. He does not affirm any particular but only speaks in general Oates Are you a Protestant too Sir Mr. Arundel No Doctor I am not Oates Pray my Lord I desire to know what Religion he is of Mr. Arundel I am a Papist my Lord. Oates Pray ask him by what Name he went at St. Omers Mr. Arundel I believe you know that as well as I Doctor Oates L. C. J. You must answer his Question Mr. Arundel I went by the Name of Spencer my Lord. Oates I do remember him my Lord to have been there Mr. Arundel Sir your humble Servant Oates It is almost seven years ago my Lord and I may not so well remember them as they do me but I desire to know when he went to St. Omers first and how long he was there Mr. Arundel I was there seven years Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was of the Sodality Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord I was L. C. J. Was he Reader of the Sodality Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord in my time he was Reader Oates Then my Lord I desire to ask him whether ever he heard of a Consult of the Jesuits that was to be held in England in April 78. and from whom he heard it Mr. Arundel Yes my Lord I did hear in the Colledge of a Congregation Mr. Sol. Gen. Was that an extraordinary one or of course Mr. Arundel It was only of course as they told us once in three years they have one Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask this Gentleman what Studies he followed at St. Omers L. C. J He was of the Sodality he says Mr. Arundel My Lord I studied to the end of Rhetorick Oates My Lord I desire to know whether when he came from St. Omers he did come directly for England Mr. Arundel No I went from thence to Paris my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr Christopher Turbervile which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Turbervile will you acquaint my Lord and the Jury whether you were with Mr. Oates at St. Omers and when Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord he went by the Name of Sampson Lucy there and there I saw him and there I was with him all the time I was there before him and I remained there after he went away Mr. Att. Gen. What time did he come to St. Omers I pray you Mr. Turbervile Before Christmas L. C. J. In what year Mr. Turbervile In the year 77. Mr. Att. Gen What time was it he went away Mr. Turbervile In June 78. L. C. J. Were you there all that while at St. Omers Mr. Turbervile Yes I was L. C. J. And to the best of your apprehension you think he was there all that while Mr Turbervile Yes I do so my Lord Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you speak of any particular daies you can remember Mr. Turbervile Yes I do remember him upon the 4th 5th and 6th of May for two or three daies together for my Lord I do remember this circumstance Mr. Poole about that time went away and that very day Mr. Poole went from the Colledge I changed my Lodging and went into his Lodging and that day I saw Doctor Oates in the Chamber and by the Chamber door Mr. Att. Gen. Did he continue in the Colledge from the time he came about Christmas to the time he went away in June Mr Turbervile Yes he did all the while except it were one night in January when he went to Watton L. C. J What time in June did he go away Mr. Turbervile I am not positive but I am morally sure he went away the 23th of June as near as I can remember Oates I was there in June that is very well known L. C. J. What do you remember of his Reading in the Colledge Mr. Turbervile I do remember he was Reader there on Sundays and Holidays for a great while I cannot swear upon what Sunday he began but he left off the Sunday before he went away L. C. J. As near as you can remember when did he begin to Read Mr. Turbervile It was the beginning of April or latter end of March I cannot justly swear which it was Mr. Molloy Did he Read on Holidays as well as Sundays Mr. Turbervile Yes he did Oates I must ask this Gentleman one Question if your Lordship please and that is this what Name he went by at St. Omers Mr. Turbervile I went there by the name of Farmer Oates Pray you my Lord ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Turbervile It is a hard Question to answer that Oates Nay my Lord I desire to know what is his Religion Mr. Turbervile I am my Lord a Roman Catholick Oates Ask him when he went to St Omers first and how long he stayed there Mr. Turbervile I was there seven years very near Oates I desire to know whether he did come away directly to England when he came from St. Omers Mr. Turbervile No my Lord I went into Italy Oates Pray you my Lord I desire to know whether he did go to Rome L. C. J. What if he did what then that is not at all to the purpose he went into Italy Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him this Question further was he a Witness on the behalf of the five Jesuits or of Langhorne at their Tryals Mr. Turbervile No my Lord I was not Oates Pray my Lord be pleased to ask him then what Reward he has been promised or is to have for giving this Evidence Mr. Turbervile None at all my Lord. Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether or no he heard of any Consult of the Jesuits in April 78 and from whom Mr. Turbervile There was a Congregation as I heard but I do not remember that any of the Fathers went from the Colledge to it several came by there and lodged there as they went and as they came back Oates Pray my Lord ask him how he came here to be a Witness in this Cause Mr. Turbervile I was subpoena'd Oates Who servâ—d the Subpoena upon him Mr. Turbervile The Managers it was sent to me by the King's Councel I suppose a man brought it to me L. C. J. 'T is no matter who brought it you you were subpoena'd that 's enough Mr.
half so hard upon them as you do upon my Witnesses what does it signifie my Lord whether the Wigg were long or short black or brown L. C. J. We have no other way to detect Perjuries but by these Circumstances and 't is the duty of a Judge to enquire into all Particulars as in a Controversie about words were they spoken in Latin or in English and so to all places and postures of sitting riding or the like as you know the Perjury of the Elders in the case of Susanna was by their different Testimony in particular Circumstances discovered Oates My Lord I will ask her but one short question by the Oath you have taken Mrs. Mayo to speak the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth as you expect the face of God with comfort in another World did you see me at Sir Richard Barkers at any time in May 78. the May before the Plot was discovered for that is the main question Mrs. Mayo Yes I did and I speak nothing here but what I speak as in the presence of the Lord. L. C. J. Prithee Woman dost thou think we ask thee any thing that we think thou dost not speak in the presence of the Lord we are all of us in the presence of the Lord always Mrs. Mayo And shall answer before him for all that we have done and said all of us the proudest and the greatest here L. C. J. But I would not have so much to answer for as thou hast in this business for all the World Mr. Soll. Gen. Well we have done with her now she may go away L. C. J. Where does she live now Cryer Mrs. Mayo where do you live now Mrs. Mayo In Leaden-hall-street my Lord. L. C. J. When did you see Sir Richard Barker's Daughter Mrs. Mayo About a Fortnight ago L. C. J. Where Mrs. Mayo In Barbican in London L. C. J. Do you live with Sir Richard Barker now Mrs. Mayo I do not live with him now L. C. J. Did his Daughter use to be at the Table at dinner Mrs. Mayo She was often in the Country my Lord. L. C. J. Did she eat at his Table at that time when Oates was there Mrs. Mayo I am not able to say whether she did or not she used to be in Wales at Sir Thomas Middleton's sometimes and with Madam Thurrell her Aunt who was her Mothers Sister and her two Daughters L. C. J. In Wales dost thou say where Mrs. Mayo My Lord in your own Country at one Doctor Cockets I know your Lordship though your Lordship does not know me L. C. J. I am very glad of it good Woman but prithee did ever Sir Richard Barker dine with Mr. Oates Mrs. Mayo I cannot say he did he went to and fro L. C. J. Well have you any more Witnesses Oates Cryer call Philip Page Cryer Here he is Sir Oates Pray swear him which was done pray be pleased to give my Lord and the Jury the best account you can of my being in Town But Mr. Page the question that I first ask you is whether I was here in April or May and in what year it was that you did see me at your Masters House L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Oates at your Master's House you mean Sir Richard Barker to be his Master I suppose Oates Yes my Lord. L. C. J. What do you say to it Page Truly I cannot be positive to the year but to the best of my remembrance it was 78. Oates Pray tell my Lord and the Jury some Circumstances in that year that did happen to you that makes you believe it was 78. Page Sir I 'le give you the best satisfaction I can to the best of my knowledge he came to Sir Richard Barker's one evening and there he enquired for Doctor Tongue he was in a disguise in a light coloured Coat something like to Frize but it was not Frize the term that they give it I cannot so readily tell he had his hair cut short almost to his ears and he had a broad-brim'd Hat on and a small stick in his hand walking melancholly about the Hall I happening to be the first body he met with as I suppose he asked me if Doctor Tongue was within I told him no I had not seen him of a considerable time he then asked me where Sir Richard Barker was I told him he was ill now at Putney says he when will he be here I told him I could not tell L. C. J. Did he see any body there but you Page That I cannot tell my Lord not that I know of L. C. J. What time of the year was it Mr. Att. Gen. And what Month Page What year and what month it was I am not able to say my Lord. L. C. J. What became of him after that Page He went out of our Gates then Sir he was walking up and down melancholy and not finding any one as I suppose to answer him he continued walking in the Patients Hall where they used to wait on Sir Richard Barker that came to discourse with him about Physick and upon my answer to his question he went away L. C. J. Did you ever see him any other time near to that time Page No I did not L. C. J. Did you use to wait on Table Page No I did not L. C. J. What Service were you then engaged in at Sir Richard Barker's Page I made up the Physick my Lord. L. C. J. Did you not acquaint the Coach-man nor Mrs. Mayo nor Sir Richard Barker with it Page I think Sir Richard Barker was in Town soon after and I did acquaint him with it Oates But can't you tell what time this is Sir Page I can say no other than I have said I believe it was in 78. L. C. J. Was this in June July or May or when Page I cannot say punctually what month it was my Lord but to the best of my knowledge and remembrance it was in the beginning of May. Oates Had not your Master a Patient at Islington at that time that was sick of a Feaver Page Yes he had Mr. J. Withens Why would Mr. Oates have given the Patient Physick Page No my Lord but 't was about that time that the Patient was under my Master's Cure Oates Indeed the St. Omers men do swear thorough stitch but my honest Witnesses are cautious it being so long ago and he that is a Minister of the Church of England as they say speaks to a very day upon a much slighter Circumstance pray call Mr. William Walker Cryer Here he is Oates Swear him which was done be pleased Walker to give my Lord to understand when 't was you saw me here in London in disguise and when it was you swore six years agone at the Old-Bayly that you saw me here in London Sir the time in Controversie is this I came here to discover a Plot of the Papists against the Kings Life and the Religion and I swore
to be true but not such as he says nor was he there but he says some of the Fathers did call there in the way to England And at that very time and after he saw him there And Mr. Doddington gives you the same account Then comes Mr. Gerrard and he tells you a Story to the same purpose how long Oates was there and when he came And that the Second of May he remembers Oates was at the Play and he remembers the twenty sixth of May Oates was there which was the sixteenth of May O. S. And he is sure Oates was there at that time for this reason that being the day whereon he himself was confirmed St. Augustine's day and Oates was confirm'd with him and therefore he has reason to Remember Oates was at St. Omers My Lord Gerrard of Bromeley was our next witness and he gives you an account to the same purpose and to the General Evidence in which he confirm the others he adds this particular That Oates used to read with a singular Canting Tone so that he must needs remember him and was so remarkable for other things that he could not be absent without being missed which he never was Then comes Mr. Morgan who was there at that time a Scholar but he 's now a Minister of the Church of England and therefore not liable to Mr. Oates's great Exception of Religion he confirms what all the witnesses said of the time of Oates's coming and of the time of his going away And particularly he swears That when Mr. Hilsley went away he was there when Mr. Pool went away he was there and when Mr. Bournaby came thither he was there And this is not all for there is somewhat more remarkable in his Testimony for he tells you particularly he does remember That upon the twenty fourth of April O. S. the Day Gentlemen when Oates says he was at the Consult in London Oates was then at St. Omers And the occasion of his remembring this he gives you an account of for he tells you upon reading the Trial of Ireland where Oates swears That he was here at the Consult the twenty fourth of April 1678 O. S. all the College reflected upon it and wondred at the Impudence of the man that he should dare to swear such a thing when all the College remembred him to be there all the while And upon recollection of Circumstances he himself did particularly recollect his own playing at Ball that very day and having tost his Ball over the wall he borrowed Oates's Key to go into the Garden to fetch it And this was thought of whilst things were fresh and every man Remembred this or that or the other thing to be done at such a particular time Mr. Arundel who was another witness proves the general Testimony of the rest and agrees in some particular things and all he says is to the same purpose Mr. Christopher Tubervile he comes and swears Oates's being at St. Omers the fourth or fifth of May which is the twenty fourth and twenty fifth of April Old Stile For that upon Mr. Pool's going away he changed his Chamber in the College and saw Oates divers days afterwards in his Chamber and at the Door and he knew that he constantly read in the Sodality and that he left particularly the Sunday before he went away which was about Midsummer 1678. There was another Gentleman and that was Mr. Anthony Turbervile who gives Evidence all to the same purpose and this Circumstance goes thorough all the Testimony of these Persons that there 's scare any body can come to or go out of the College but it is known to all that are there every man takes notice of it 't is the Common Discourse amongst them and therefore they give this as the Reason of their Belief That he was there all this while because they did not remember any thing that should give them occasion to believe Mr. Oates was away from the College from Christmas till Midsummer but only one time and the remembrance of that does show That they do really observe these things for they could all tell that in January he went to Watton and stayed out one Night There is one witness more that is positive and particular and that is Mr. Clavering and he remembers Oates by a very remarkable Circumstance was at St. Omers at the very time the Congregation is said to be held in London for he tells you there came a Person to beg money of him and there was a Collection made in the House and this Person did desire to speak with Oates who was then in the College and whom it seems this Person had known in Spain but Oates did refuse to speak with him and did not come down to him Thus he remembers such an one came there and when he was there he was sent to Oates to desire him to come down to this man and he would not Ay but now how is this remembred to be at the time when the Congregation was held here in England As to that he gives this plain and full account That it must be at that very time for the Scholars did discourse among themselves and were reckoning up what he had gotten among them and what he had gotten at Watton and finding that it was very inconsiderable that he had gotten at Watton they talkt among themselves what should be the Reason and concluded it was because the Fathers were gone over to England to the Congregation These particular Circumstances our witnesses give you as the Reasons of their particular Remembrances of the particular times But Gentlemen you must take along with you those General Considerations too that are offered which do affect the whole time from Christmas till Midsummer First That none can come or go without being discoursed of in the College Next That much more Mr. Oates must needs be missed than any other being so Remarkable a Person as they tell you that scarce any week past without his making it remarkable by some ridiculous Action or another They say he sate singly by himself at a particular Table that no man could come into the Hall but they must see him and therefore if absent must needs miss him And yet they swear they do not ever remember him absent but that one Night and if he had been absent they must needs have observed it because of all those Circumstances that have been reckoned up These are the witnesses Gentlemen that we have produced to prove this Charge upon the Defendant two of whom are brought only to verifie Mr. Hilsley's Testimony having heard it from him at that time that he had left Oates at St. Omers when there was no thoughts of this Question Now among these twenty witnesses there are not above two or three at most that were at either of the Trials before They were never produced as Evidence though indeed they proved the same thing that was testified by others then but with many other Circumstances
and Particularities that were not before spoken of some are now produced that were produced before and the reason is because they are themselves concerned in those particularities which gave occasion to the others to remember them Gentlemen after the producing of so many witnesses and so strong a proof what is it that Mr. Oates has produced against it His main Objection to their Testimony is There were several that came from St. Omers to testifie at those former Trials what these now swear who were not believed but I was believed and the men were Convicted Condemned and Executed upon my Testimony But is that all he has to say No says he I have likewise witnesses to offer as a Counter proof to them a positive proof that I was here in England at the time they swear me to be at St. Omers and he says well if that be proved there is an end of the Case Well what is the proof the witnesses that he has have been these four Ciceley Mayo servant to Sir Richard Barker Butler his Coachman Page another of Sir Richard's Servants and the Parson Walker The Evidence of Page and Walker though produced last by Mr. Oates yet I crave leave to mention first and set them out of the way Page he remembers to have seen Mr. Oates in a Disguise at Sir Richard Barker's that is in Grey Cloths but he is not certain as to the time and he cannot take upon him to say what time of the year or what year it was only he believes it was in May and therefore that can be no sufficient Evidence to contradict witnesses that with great particularity speak to certain times As for Walker the Parson he said he saw him between St Martin's Lane and Leicester Fields but he cannot remember the time when neither Nay the remembrance he has of it goes rather to another time than the time in question for being asked what Circumstance he knew the time by he said it was about a year and a quarter before the Plot was discovered which must be in April or May 1677. and that will do the Doctor no Service at all upon this Question Now let us consider Mrs. Mayo's Testimony and the Oath that she made was this That when Oates came over into England she saw him at Sir Richard Barker's House the latter end of April or the beginning of May and the week before Whitsontide the latter end of April or the beginning of May was the first time that he came that she faw him but that he came before as she heard but the Coachman only saw him and told her that Oates had been there but the second time she did see him and he went in and dined there in the House Sir Richard Barker was not there but my Lady's Sister her Sons and Daughters were there she says that she saw him again a week before Whitsontide that when he came the first time he was in grey Cloths a white Hat and a short Periwig Afterwards he was in black Cloths a pretty long Periwig not very long but the Periwig was brown and these are the Circumstances she remembers to have seen him by Now let us see what Butler the Coachman says he remembers about the beginning of May he saw Oates at his Master's House in a Disguise the other said it was the latter end of April or the beginning of May But I stand not upon that but this he does swear That the first time he saw him Ciceley Mayo saw him too that he was then in grey Cloths a white Hat but his hair was cut short and he had no Periwig on afterwards he came in a cinnamon coloured Coat and green Ribbons and a long black Periwig This is Butler's Evidence Now these two People's Evidence are utterly impossible to be reconciled they contradict one another so much First They contradict one another in this she says The first time he came she did not see him but the Coachman told her he had been there but he swears That she did at that time look out of the Window into the Yard and did see him as well as he Another Contradiction is this She remembers the first time he came in grey Cloths a white Hat and a short Periwig the Coachman he swears he had no Periwig on but his hair was cut short to his Ears Then again she swears the second time he was in black Cloths and an indifferent long Periwig and the Periwig was brown and the other swears he was in cinnamon colour Cloths and a long Periwig and it was a black one Now thus you see the witnesses contradict themselves and cannot be reconciled to one another But take one thing more which is very considerable wherein she contradicts Mr. Gerrard for she swears he was here a week before Whitsontide that she is sure of Now that falls upon the nineteenth day of May then upon the sixteenth day of May was the week before Whitsontide now that is a most Eminent Day by the Testimony of Mr. Gerrard for that happens to be the twenty sixth of May New Stile and that was the day he was confirmed with Mr. Gerrard at St. Omers And no man sure can doubt which of the two witnesses is to be believed and it cannot but be true that he was there at that time because so remarkable a Circumstance cannot be forgotten and yet this Woman swears that he was here a week before Whitsontide and that by Computation must be the time of his Confirmation But Gentlemen another thing that I offer upon the Testimony of these witnesses is this If you will believe it he himself contradicts his own witnesses or they him and one of them is forsworn For he has sworn the Consult was the twenty fourth of April and that three or four days after that was over he went back with the Fathers to St. Omers Now this contradicts all that his witnesses have said But he has given himself as he thought some little latitude says he the Consult began the twenty fourth but it held six or seven dayes longer We will for this time admit it to be so and give him the six days he requires and yet after all it will not come up to the time that his witnesses speak to for to the twenty fourth of April add six days and that brings us just to the last day of April and then take four days in May to make up the three or four days after the Consult was over and we are yet at a great distance from the Whitson week for that was the nineteenth of May and the week before must be the twelfth or thirteenth and so it is impossible to be reconciled to Truth what he and his witnesses swear either the Evidence that the Doctor now brings must be a Contradiction to his own former Oath or his Oath proves they are mistaken besides the Contradiction that is between the witnesses themselves for they vary in a great many
Complement this he did particularly say was the expression that this excellent Schollar used to the Physician at his first application to him and all the whole Colledge took notice of that piece of his Learning The next is one Price and he tells you he was there all the time that the others speak of he remembers him very well and particularly says I am sure Oates was there the 11th of May N. S. which will be the first of May O. S. Because says he I know he was soundly beaten that day upon a quarrel that he had there this particularly he speaks to besides his remembrance of the other Circumstances in concurrence with the former Witnesses Mr. Doddington swears the same and Mr. Gerrard also swears the same with that other particular circumstance that Mr. Sollicitor repeated to you which was of Oates being there upon the day of Confirmation the 26th of May N. S. the 16th of May O. S. and he is sure of it because he was confirmed along with him and therefore it is impossible he should forget it And my Lord Gerrard who was the next gives this reason upon his remembrance of all the forementioned particulars that he always took special notice of the man for his Canting Tone his Physiognomy and remarkable Behaviour Then there is Mr. Morgan who is no Papist but a Minister of the Church of England now Mr. Oates was angry with all the rest because they were Catholicks but what has he to say to Mr. Morgan who is a Protestant Why the truth is there are none of them to be believed because they swear against him and really he ought to be permitted to give that reason or it is like to go very hard with him for if in case you believe but a third part of the Testimony that has been given it is enough to do his work But what says Mr. Morgan truly he comes up to the 24th of April particularly and he tells you how he remembers it and the first occasion he had to look into it was they being all surprized at St. Omers at what Oates had Sworn and Mr. Morgan recollecting with himself did remember that that very day he was playing at Ball within the Colledge and happened to toss his Ball over the Wall into the Garden and not being able to recover it any other way he spyed Oates walking and looking into his Book and therefore he desired him to lend him his Key and by the help of that he went in and fetched his Ball and this was the very day that Oates swore he was here Mr. Arrundel says the same the two Turberviles say the same and one of them is positive to have seen him there either the 24th and 25th or 23d and 24th of April O. S. which is the 3d and 4th or 4th and 5th of May N. S. and if it were either of these days it cannot be possible he should be here at the Consult The next is Mr. Clavering and I cannot but particularly take notice of what he has sworn he says Mr. Oates was there all the time that the rest speak of but it seems particularly about the time of the Congregation in London there comes in a Stranger that was poor and this Gentleman Mr. Clavering made a Collection for him and it was talked of in the Colledge as the reason why he had not success in his Collection because the Fathers were gone to the Congregation Nay and yet farther says he I do remember particularly that Mr. Williams and Mr. Marsh did go over to the Congregation but Oates did not for I do remember when Williams and Marsh came back again I had some discourse with Mr. Oates about the Congregation He came to me and desired to know of me what account I was able to give of the matter of that Meeting after the Consult was over Now had Mr. Oates been there and been a person of that great Trust that he had sworn himself into he needed not sure have asked Mr. Clavering at St. Omers what the business of the Consult was at London where he himself had been but the other had not There is besides Mr. Capley another Witness Mr. Cooke that speaks particularly of the 30th of April that he was sure Oates was there then because of the Procession and because he walked by himself in it and Wright the last Witness gives a general account but speaks to no particular time And now Gentlemen after all this Evidenc Viva voce you must give me leave to hint Testimonium Rei an improbable Oath was that which Oates owns he made if it be considered in all its parts Can any man believe that fifty persons should meet together in a Tavern in London and these fifty persons should come to a Resolution to kill the King and subvert the Government and alter the Religion and that this Consultation being drawn up in the Tavern for so he swears it was they should sever themselves into lesser Clubbs and Companies and take care that none should sign when they were altogether and among themselves but must have it carryed up and down from one mans Chamber to another and find no body to trust with this Affair that if discovered must subject them to present destruction and ruine their whole party but onely Mr. Oates who was none of their own Order nor does appear to be of such Credit amongst them Can you believe any men should be so void of sense and reason that of fifty together and those reputed as subtile as any sort of men whatsoever there should not be one man of common understanding that should take care for a more rational Management of so great and hazardous an Undertaking when they were met together and might have dispatcht it in a quarter of an hour they should separate themselves into several parts of the Town and trust a Resolution of that nature in Mr. Oates pocket in whom if they had had more Confidence than they seem to have yet it was folly and madness to give him that opportunity of destroying all them and making himself were there no other Evidence but the very Testimony of the thing it would go a very great way with me I confess but I must say withal you are Judges of this Fact upon a superadded Testimony of Twenty two Witnesses Viva voce I think it leaves the thing without any doubt Gentlemen the Answer given by the Defendant to this Charge is very fallacious and though he puts such a Countenance upon it as though his Witnesses were such persons of Credit that nothing could be objected against them yet he is certainly very much mistaken in that He has produced but two potitive Witnesses and those two as positive as they are in their proof are likewise positive in their Contradictions of one another and what they have said is left to your Consideration The one is a Coachman the other was Sir Richard Barker's House-keeper they indeed do say Sir Richard Barker's