John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
prove well enough that there was such a Plot but my Lords withall we did consider when the first Discovery of this Plot was made how afterwards it took cold how rumors were raised against it how there were endeavours to suppress the belief of it and therefore my Lords we do conceive that it is fit we should first settle that that there was a general Plot a Plot of such a Nature as the Articles express Some Objections we thought there might be raised because it hath been so long in the World some years now since the Discovery of it some persons that is some ten or eleven Prosecuted and Atatinted for it and therefore that might have been satisfaction enough that such a Plot there was besides that there have been publick Declarations of the Particulars to the World But being now to proceed before your Lordships in a judicial way We did think fit and we hope your Lordships will approve of it to spend some time in the Proof of the general Plot which we hope will be to the satisfaction of your Lordships and the whole World for we do not think that England only looks into this days Tryal but the whole World one way or other the whole Christian World is concerned in it My Lords after the Publication of these things which were not judicial how far your Lordships will believe them as Judges we know not we will prove it now that their Policies and Contrivances may be laid open to the World And first we offer it to your Lordships because we have made it part of the Charge And secondly we shall do it because we think your Lordships are not obliged to believe things that are in Print till we prove them by Witnesses judicially before you But the main Reason why we do it is because we would touch upon those Endeavours that have been used to make this seem as if it were a kind of State Plot I know not what to call â—t a Chimaera an Imagination and not a real thing This they laboured many ways to effect but we shall prove that it is a very real and a very true one When that Oats first made a Discovery it seems it had not that weight that we think now it will clearly have with your Lordships and had not the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey followed in the Neck of it the World as it was asleep would have lain so but that awaked us My Lords it fell out in this Case as it did in another when Cateline the Traytor was a great way off Rome and four other Lords with him Cassius Cethegus and others five in all it came to pass that as the great Orator that was at that time said Many were so ignorant that they would not think it many were so unwise they would not believe it some so ill that they would favour it some so much worse that they did Foster it but all of them in not believing it gave strength to the Conspiracy the Treason And so it did here for we look not upon our selves as discharg'd from the Treason when Discover'd but when Prevented My Lords another Reason to induce us into the Proof of the main Plot is this We do not look upon it as a particular Offence as if one Lord was only to be questioned and appear before your Lordships judicially for it he is indeed only before you at this time to receive his Tryal and your Judgment But my Lords this is a Treason of a Faction and of a general Party in the Nation 't is not this or that Lord but a great number 't is not this or that Lord that is mentioned in the Articles but the Conspiracy is of a great Faction This we do think and this makes us so earnest to press the general before your Lordships that we may give satisfaction to your Lordships and the World what this Plot hath been and how carried on every where My Lords The Consequence of that is very great for my Lords if there were a general Design and a general Plot as clearly there was for some were to act in Spain and some in France some in other places some in Ireland Scotland and England and a great number of Jesuits we have a matter of Thirty in Chase about this business I say my Lords if it be so if one Action be in one place and another in another yet if there be a common Consent to accomplish this Plot then what the one does is the Act of All and the Act of All is the Act of every one My Lords The Persons were many and the Places and Times many they acted in and the Designs which they were to accomplish and the means wherewith they were to accomplish them were many too Great and wicked were their Designs to destroy our King to take him out of the World and why upon hopes of better times to them under him that should succeed him Another part of the Design was to destroy not this or that man that stood in their way but the whole Body of the Protestants here in England not a Murder but a Massacre and a Slaughter of all whosoever they were that came near them and none were to escape for if any meant to flee they would be sure to cut them off nay not only to destroy our King though that be the greatest Offence that our Law can take hold off but to destroy our Religion and to destroy us because of our Religon To accomplish this that we may open the generals of it Arms were to be provided Men to be raised an Army was formed in effect and who to Lead and who to Command and who to pay But my Lords not only were Arms to be had here among our selves but a French Aid must be fetch'd in Assistance from France must come too Intelligences and Letters are written and Correspondencies had and Aids promised by the Ministers from thence My Lords 'T is a strange thing that English men should contrive to have an Invasion of Strangers upon their own Country and surely they are the worst Biggots in the world that were so zealous to destroy their own Nation and they were not wise sure to think that if the French did come in they should continue great Lords or great Men and yet thus it was in general It is very strange that it should enter into the heart of any man to destroy so many persons But my Lords if we look upon what did incourage them and what confirmed them in this Design and what they have published to the world about their Religion we shall not wonder at it since they tell us 't is lawful to kill an Heretick King and the King of England is an Heretick they say and so declared so that whosoever would Kill him did a lawful and pious piece of Service to God Nay not only so but a Meritorious and Glorious one too for which they may be Canonized for Saints My Lords
we find it is no new thing look into all the Nations where the Pope hath any Power or a possibility of hope to gain a Power nothing hath been able to stand in their way but they have broken through all the Bonds of Nature and other Obligations to attain their Ends. Look into Spain King Philip there removed his own Son by what means the Story tells us he was Heir apparent but he was a Protestant and there also the Father puts Fire to his own Daughter because she was a Protestant there a Spaniard goes from Spain into Germany to murder and did murder his Brother for no other cause but because he was a Protestant Leave Spain and go into France what Massacres have been committed there under the colour of a Marriage in Queen Elizabeth's time and before that how many hundred Albingenses and Waldenses have been put to the Sword for Religion Come we to our own Country and look into England what hath been done here when Queen Elizabeth had a Successor of another Religion how many Attempts were there made upon her Person to bring that Successor in When King James came to the Crown let us remember the Gunpowder Treason wherein all the Nation was to be destroyed King Lords and Commons together and in Parliament assembled were then to be a Sacrifice a Burnt-offering though they might call it a Peace-offering for these Gentlemen are for Sacrifices of Blood as Peace-offerings to reconcile us to the Pope If this be made out we think their Principles having produced these fruits in other Ages we may believe they would do so now What has been said as History of former times is not offered as Evidence of Fact to the present Case but induces a probability that what hath been done by such persons may be done by them again But my Lords we shall make it clear and bring it home to this Lord that he hath had his Head his Tongue his Hand his Heart and his Purse in this damnable and horrible Contrivance and Treason for the destroying of the King the Government our Religion and our Nation We shall bring it home to him But my part is only to open the general Conspiracy And indeed my Lords it is an heavy burden on my aged Shoulders considering that the Winter of Infirmity and Age is growing so fast upon me My Lords the particulars concerning this Noble Lord because the Credit of it rests on the Testimony only of one man viz. Mr. Oats whose Testimony being taken by Sir Edmunbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace and kept in writing by him then Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was way-laid and murdered by men of the Popish Religion thereby to suppress the Examination that he had taken This startled and opened the eyes of the world to look about us for farther Discovery lest we should be led as Oxen to the slaughter not knowing whether we went Afterward it pleased God to bring some of their own Religion and party to make farther Discovery Whereupon several Jesuits Guilty of the Plot were therefore Prosecuted and brought to Judgment and Death After the Murder of Godfrey several Fables were spread abroad as if he were alive and Married as was declared to several Lords others of the party Reported he had Murdered himself but his Body being found it was hard for the party to invent or tell whether he first strangled himself and then run himself through or first run himself through and then strangled himself that was a Dilemma to disprove their Fables touching Godfrey's Murder It then fell out that Mr. Bedlow came as a second Discoverer whose Testimony Concurred with Oats And then there being two Witnesses as is necessary in case of Treason the Design was to take off Bedlow that there should remain but one a single Witness In order to which Reading tempts Bedlow with Rewards to lessen his former Testimony and qualifies that which he had deposed positively was but matter of hear say For which Reading the Instrument in that Design and Attempt was Indicted and Convicted by three Witnesses and suffered accordingly But then this Attempt upon Bedlow failing the next Attempt was to take off Oats his Testimony by charging him with an Infamous offence for which purpose one Knox is imployed who Suborns Lane and Osborn and they Swore it against Oats But on Re-examination Confess the Subornation and Falshood of their Design and Knox and Lane are therefore Indicted and found Guilty Thus when the Treason was discovered the Murder of an Officer of Justice is made the means to hide it and then False and Infamous stories set on Foot of that Officer to hide that Murder and Perjury and Subornation the means to blast the Discoverers These wicked and ill practices we take to be a second reproof of the Plot both in general and particular the Records of which Convictions are here before your Lordships ready to be proved For Cui bono none would do such wicked practices but to hide a greater Sin and worse Designs if possible will be opened and proved by one to whom that is particularly appointed My Lords we speak this that the World may receive Satisfaction we will let our Evidence be all open and publick in the face of the Sun and shew we go not about by private Subornations though there are endeavours to encounter us by such My Lords If we make out these things here is Matter enough for the Satisfaction of the World as to the general Contrivance But my Lords As you sit here as Judges of this Lord the Prisoner at the Bar we must bring it down to particular Persons and we shall do it even to him that those things which were mentioned in General were his Contrivance at least-wise as a man highly deeply guilty of Conspiring the Kings Death and in order to that of raising an Army and the other things that have been opened My Lords I beseech you to pardon me if I have troubled you too long The Particulars were many and I have had little help to prepare it from any body but my self but I submit my self to your Lordships and hope that what is wanting in me will be supplyed by others that follow and I also hope you will find no defect in our Evidence at all whatsoever may have been in the opening of it Then Sir Francis Winnigton another of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords I Shall begin where Mr. Serjeant Maynard ended and confine my self to this Case as it stands before you and to open the particular Evidence relating to the Lord the now Prisoner at the Bar. My Lords I look upon the Cause of this day to be the Cause of the Protestant Religion and I doubt not but that Plot which has alarm'd all Christendom will be so clearly made out in this Tryal that the most malicious of our Enemies will henceforth want Confidence to deny it That the Religion of the Papists
the Conviction of Tasborough and Price to corrupt Dugdale a principal Witness as to this Plot. I only mention these particulars my Lords and certainly as you are a great Court of Record you will take notice of them It would be a hard thing perhaps to spend the time in reading all since all of them are made known to the world already but we shall in the course of our Evidence produce them and you may read such of them as you please All the use we make of them is for the proof of the general Plot which is requisite to be done for it will be hard to believe the Prisoner Guilty of the Plot if there were no such Plot at all My Lords we shall make appear to you things which have not yet been brought into Judgment In the year 76. we shall prove by a Witness that was then abroad and discoursed with Anderton Campion Green and several other Priests and Jesuits that they did acquaint him that there would be great alteration in England ere long that the King was a Heretick and Excommunicated and might be destroyed and this Doctrine they continually and industriously preached And they further said if once the King were removed who alone stood in the way their Religion must needs flourish for this Reason as the Witnesses will speak that the Duke of York was on their side My Lords We shall prove that they had in England men no less industrious amongst them some whereof have been Executed Gavan by name who made it his business to go up and down in several Counties of this Kingdom to prove by Scripture Councils and Examples That it was a lawful undertaking to kill His Majesty These things I name as necessary in order to introduce our particular Evidence I am unwilling to dwell longer upon this point of the general Plot. I shall produce the Records and produce our several Witnesses Mr. Oats and others that will give you a full and plain Account of it My Lords Having done with the general Plot I come now to open the particular Evidence against my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. As to him my Lords our Evidence stands not upon Conjectures or upon meer Probability because this Lord is as we well know a zealous Papist and hath owned himself so but we have express particular Proofs against his Person My Lords we have one Witness to produce to your Lordships who will prove that in September 78. there was a Consult of some Priests and other Conspirators at Tixall in Staffordshire my Lord Aston's House for killing of the King where my Lord Stafford was present And by a Discourse in the same month we shall prove what reasons this Lord did give why he and their Party undertook the Murdering of the King because he said That he and many Catholâ—ck Families had no Recompence for their Loyalty but if any thing fell it was disposed of to Rebels and Traytors This he resented deeply but above all the Obligation of his Conscience and of his Religion persuaded him to it and confirmed him in his resolution to go on in this horrid Design My Lords we will go farther and prove that this Lord offered 500 l. out of his own Purse to carry on the Plot and particularly this part of it for killing the King We shall produce to your Lordships a Witness to whom he made this offer as looking upon him to be a faithful man and having received so great a Character of him from one Evers a Priest that he thought he might safely communicate the matter to him and the Argument he urged to persuade the Witness besides the 500 l. which he said upon his application to Harcouâ—t and Ireland they should pay him was this that others as well as he was employed in the same Design that it was the only way to establish the Romish Religion in England that he would lay an everlasting obligation upon all the Persons of that Persuasion and that he should not only have his Pardon but be Canonized for it My Lords This is the substance of the Testimony of the first Witness which we shall produce against my Lord Stafford and that is so express as I think it can hardly be answered My Lords Our next Witness says thus for I shall but open the substance of what they say In June or July 1678. there were several Letters from this Lord at the Bar to the Jesuits in London in which his Lordship did declare his readiness to serve them in their great Design and in June 78. the latter end of the month my Lord Stafford came to Mr. Fenwicks Chamber in Drury-Lane he went not then by the name of my Lord Stafford but by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham and there he did receive a Commission from Fenwick to be Paymaster-General of the Army which was to be raised for the carrying on the Plot. His Lordship told them he was then going into the Country but he hoped he should soon hear from them that they had done the business at least that it would be done before his Lordship did return To which Fenwick made answer Your Lordship must look after the business as well as other Persons and there will be need of some to Countenance it in Town thereupon the Lord the Prisoner at the Bar said That they had been often deceived by this Prince and been patient with him but they would bear no longer but were now resolved to do the Work without delay for their patience was worn out Several other particular Circumstances the Witnesses will acquaint your Lordships withal which I shall not take up your time with My Lords We have a third Witness as considerable and particular as any of the rest one that lived three years in the Lady Powis House had his Education there and was persuaded by that Lady and by one Morgan a Jesuit to become a Fryer and to that end was sent to Doway But not liking to continue at Doway he will tell you the reason why he escaped to France and at Paris came to his Brother a Benedictine Monk there who advised him to go for England But whilst he staid at Paris this Gentleman by the means of his Brother and other Priests grew into a great samiliarity with my Lord Stafford who was then in France and who at last came to have such a great Confidence in him that his Lordship could not hold but told him that though he had disobliged all his Friends by his going away from Doway yet he had something to propose to him which would be a means to reconcile him to hâ—s Friends and bring him into preserment and into the friendship of all good Catholicks whom he would oblige by it The Gentleman was willing to embrace so happy an opportunity and desired to know what it was could procure him so great a good My Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar told him It was a thing of very great Importance and
witness against me may look upon me face to face according to the words of the Statute I humbly beseech your Lordships to grant me this which I take to be according to Law and that each may give his Evidence alone and that both against me and for me one may not know what the other says Lord High Stew. My Lord You shall have all the fair proceeding that can be Lord Stafford The Law says my Accusers must look me face to face I desire to have the words read Lord High Steward Your Lordship may see him there where he stands up Then Mr. Smith turned and looked upon my Lord Stafford Lord Safford I do see him but do not know him Lord High Steward Swear him Clerk The Evidence that you shall give in the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and the Contents of this Book Lord High Steward Your Lordship observes he is not brought as a particular Witness against your Lordship but to prove the general Design of your Party Lord Stafford 'T is still concerning me Lord High Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford which he did and now tell your Evidence Mr. Treby This is Mr. Smith my Lords And that which we would examine this Witness to is the general Design of the Plot what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond Sea the Gentleman is able to understand the general Question Mr. Smith My Lords I remember very well when I went first into France I came acquainted with Abbot Montague Father Gascoyn and several other Popish Priests and Jesuits who often discoursed with me and told me if I would make my self a Catholick I should have an Employment amongst them there and afterwards in England for they did not doubt but the Popish Religion would come in very soon upon which I asked his Lordship the Abbot one day what reason he had to believe it he told me two reasons first that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of Religion by which they should bring it in without noise and secondly that the Gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own Religion and the Antiquity of theirs and the advantages that were to be had by it These Reasons Abbot Montague gave me There was one Father Bennet and others that told me the chief reason was their party was very strong in England and in a few Years they would bring it in right or wrong All this would not prevail with me to turn Papist and I lived among them several Years At last I had a design to go to Rome and as I went I had a design to go to Provence and so into Italy where there was one Cardinal Grimaldi coming thorough the Town and the Jesuits having a great School there I was curious to go to the School and they were very desirous I should tarry for some time in the Town I did and they made much of me and told me much to the same substance what assurances they had of their Religion coming into England At last they had a desire I should discourse with the Cardinal which I did and he made much of me and he it was that perverted me to the Romish Religion upon this the Cardinal shewed me a pair of Hangings that were in his House which he said did belong to the Queen Mother and were bought in Paris and he told me he was acquainted with many of the Nobility in England and that he had great assurance the Popish Religion would prevail and he told me there was but one in the way and though that man was a good natured man yet they could not so far prevail upon him but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way but at last I left this place and went to Rome where I lived some years in the English Jesuits Colledge there and when I had lived there five years I came to be Prefect of several Rooms there which are the Scholars Lodgings and places of Study I have heard it there often disputed in their own Colledge both preach'd and privately exhorted that the King of England was an Heretick and that there was no King really reigning and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action Lord High Steward Who was that that said so Mr. Treby Name the persons Mr. Smith Father Anderton Rector of the Colledge who was a very good Scholar Father Mumford and one Father Campion but chiefly one Father Southwell one of the chief of the Jesuits And I doubting of the truth of that Opinion they did shew me several of their Books there and directed me to some passages of Mariana Vasquez and Bellarmine which I have since published to the world wherein they did assert it as a true Doctrine and as Christian Doctrine what the Fathers told me and this was never condemned at Rome Besides my Lords when I was coming from Rome with my Faculty and License signed by Cardinal Barberino who generally conducts or causes to be conducted all Papists to take their leave of the Pope and before we came away for there were five or six of us together for a whole month these Fathers were exhorting us That we were not obliged to obey the King of England and that in all private Confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design That they should use all their endeavours for promoting the Popish Religion I coming into England made my application to Dr. Perrott who belonged to the Portugal Ambassador and was chief of the Popish Clergy in England I was kept there some months to say Mass in his Chappel and afterwards I was sent into the North where there were abundance of Jesuits and Fryers to one Mr. Jenison's House where knowing the Principles of these people I made it my business to rout these Jesuits away especially out of Mr. Jenison's House who had a Kinsman of his own that was a Jesuit and used to serve him in his House and great complaint was made against me and there was one Mr. Smith otherwise Serjeant in the North who gave me intimation of it ond to whom I wrote to satisfie him and the Clergy of the grounds and reasons why I routed them away which if he be in England now he can justifie Upon this I received a smart Letter as a kind of Reprimand for my doing so and he told me That though they did agree with me in Doctrine yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the Popish Religion And taxed me sharply for appearing against it I told him how the Jesuits perverted the Duke of York and that by that means they would be the chief men in England though there were none of their Order till Queen Elizabeths time Besides My Lords in Rome I saw Coleman's Letters and read them once a month as I believe wherein he
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
me to the White Horse in Ridgley and there when I came to him he told me I knew as much of the Plot as he I told him I was innocent of the thing he swore God damn him that I knew as much as he Then I told him if he knew no more than I did he knew no more than my Lord Mayor's great Horse did Then he took me aside Come says he you are a poor man and live poorly I can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly I will give you 50 l. in hand if so be you will do so and so and 50 l. more when the thing is done L. H. Stew. What do you mean by so and so Morrall To swear against Mr. Howard Sir James Symons and several other Gentlemen of the Country L. H. Stew. Did he offer you any mony to swear against my Lord Stafford Morrall No I did not hear him mention any thing of him L. H. Stew. But he offered you mony to swear against Symons and Howard Morrall Yes my Lord and Herbert Aston my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Stew. What were you to swear Morrall That they were at such a Meeting at Mr. Herbert Aston's upon the Conspiracy of the Plot. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any thing Managers No set him by Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Samuel Holt. L. H. Stew. What Profession are you L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not L. H. Steward What Profession are you of Holt. A Protestant of the Church of England L. H. Stew. What Trade Holt. A Blacksmith L. H. Stew. Where do you live Holt. At Tixal L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What say you Holt. My Lords he sent a man and a Horse for me to Stafford to the Star L. H. Stew. Who did Holt. Mr. Dugdale did And there I waited upon him a good while At length he came and told me he must speak with me privately so he told me if I would swear that VValter Moor carried Evers away he would give me 40 l. And he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my Lord Aston for he would hire me an Horse and get me to London and place me that where I got one shilling I should g et five L. H. Stew. Did you know Evers Holt. Yes my Lords I have seen him L. H. Stew. Do you know when he went away from Tixal Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What else can you say Holt. Nothing else L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No. L. Stafford T' e next thing I go upon is that Stephen Dugdale at the Tryal of the five Jesuits swore That he acquainted Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godsrey the Munday or Tuesday after which Mr. Sambidge denies And in order to that I call Mr. Sambidge but if your Lordships please I shall first prove that hâ— swore it then Where is Mr. Lydcott who stood up I desire to ask him whether Dugdale did swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits that he acquainted Mr. Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey L. H. Stew. You fellow Witness My Lord. L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness John Lydcott L. H. Stew. How do you live Lydcott I am a Fellow of Kings Colledge in Cambridge L. H. Stew. What do you come to say Lydcott I don't know my Lords what my Lord will ask me Sir VVill. Jones My Lords before you enter into the examination of this man we desire to ask him a Question or two Mr Serj. Mayn Whose Servant are you or were you lately Lydcott I am Fellow of Kings Colledge Mr. Serj. Maynard But whom did you serve lately were you never Secretary to a Lord Lydcott Yes I was Mr. Serj. Mayn To what Lord Lydcott To my Lord Castlemain Sir L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Lydcott Of the Church of England and always was nay I can't say always for I was bred up a Presbyterian my Father was a Colonel under Monk L. Stafford Mr. Lydcott I ask whether you did not hear Mr. Dugdale swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Serj. Mayn I desire one favour my Lords my Lord Stafford asks Questions to lead the Witness pray let him ask his Questions more generally L. H. Stew. You say you are a Protestant Lydcott Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When did you last receive the Sacrament Lydcott When I was last at Cambridge No not so for it is not above a year ago that I was there L. H. Stew. When then did you receive the Sacrament Lydcott I do not exactly remember my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord I would be glad to know what is the Question your Lordship calls him for that your Lordship may not ask the Question but by me L. Stafford My Lords I desire to know for my part I know not what his Answer will be whether he did hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Dugdale swear he had communicated the news of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's death which was on the Saturday on the Tuesday after to any people and to whom L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Lydcott Yes I was L. H. Stew. Did you hear Dugdale swear there and give his Testimony Lydcott Yes I did L. H. Stew. Do you remember what Dugdale swore then Lydcott Very well L. H. Steward What was it Lydcott My Lords Mr. Dugdale spoke of a Letter that came down to my Lord Aston's on the Munday and he imparted it on the Tuesday after at an Ale-house to one Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips This was also at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal which I took notice of more particularly because I had occasion to take some Notes there L. H. Stew. What use do you make of this my Lord L. Stafford If that be allowed to be so then I will call no more Witnesses otherwise I have more L. H. Stew. Call them all Lord Stafford Then call Mr. Charles Gifford Mr. Serj. Mayn Pray my Lords give me leave to ask this young Scholar one Question before he goes By whose commendation or means did you come into that Colledge Lydcott By Election from Eaton Mr. Serj. Mayn Who promoted you Lydcott One Mr. Doyley now Senior Fellow of Kings Colledge it was his Election Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question He says he went to take Notes by whose direction did he go to take Notes at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Lydcott It was for my own curiosity L. H. Stew. Friend 't is all one as if you were upon your Oath and as penal to you by whose direction did you go Lydcott It was partly my own curiosity and partly to see what Evidence was against my Lord for my Lord Castlemain thought himself concerned as
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
serve him in case he shall need it Made at the Camp before Air this 4. of August 1676. Sheldon L. H. Steward What is the date of that Discharge Turbervill Mr. Turbervill 'T is in August 76. L. Stafford May I see it my Lords L. H. Stew. Yes deliver it to my Lord which was done and he looked upon it L. Stafford The thing looks like truth but there is no proof of it Mr. Turbervill The Seal is a little broke but the Name remains perfect L. Stafford He says here is a dismission from the Army in 76. how will that rectifie this mistake about 73. I understand not that Then the Court called for the Paper and it was looked upon by the Duke of Monmouth and some other Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this Paper hath been looked upon the Hand is well known by those that should know it L. Stafford I do not say the contrary L. H. Stew. Whereabouts are you now my Lord then L. Stafford I am extreamly faint and weary that I am sure of This Gentleman told you yesterday that he spoke with me several times in France and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together that he visited me and I proposed the Killing of the King to him and that he refused to give me an Answer then but told me he would give it me at Diep This he said yesterday as I remember And afterwards when he was gone down he came up again and desired to put your Lordships in mind of a particular Circumstance which he said he did remember That when he came to me I had the Gout and was in a lower Room of the House in such a Street which faced Luxenburgh House all which I stand not upon and that the Prince of Conde lived in the same Street on the left hand he said first and after on the right hand and after he knew not where and that I did lodge in the same Street Mr. Turbervill I did say I believed the Prince of Conde lived there but was not positive L. Stafford No but first he swears a thing and then only believes it Be pleased to call my Servants to know if ever I had my Foot ill of the Gout in my life Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship told me it was the Gout Lord Stafford If ever I put my Foot on a Stool or was lame there I will own all that he says But when a man swears his Evidence and goes down from the place and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories who shall believe such a man Mr. Turbervill I never went from the Bar. Lord Stafford I do say yâ—â— went down and had given all your Evidence and came up again and told this Circumstance I have not been lame not one moment these forty years and yet this Fellow this impudent Fellow to say that I was lame and put my Foot on a Stool He does not my Lords swear positively in any thing but this and this I can easily disprove in him L. H. Steward What say you to this particular Turbervill Had my Lord Stafford never the Gout while he was in France Mr. Turbervill He told me it was the Gout my Lords He had a great lameness he could not go from one place to another Here are several people to give Testimony that my Lord was lame within less time than he says Mr. Foley Hold hold Turbervill you must not give that Evidence now L. Stafford Call Nicholas Furnese again L. H. Steward What do you call him for L. Stafford Ask whether ever he saw Mr. Turbervill with me in France L. H. Stew. Were you with my Lord Stafford all the while he was in France Furnese Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you never see Turbervill there Furnese No. L. H. Stew. Pray did you never see Father Anthony Turbervill there Furnese No my Lords I never heard of his Name L. Stafford Was I ever one moment lame while I was in France Furnese Not that I remember L. H. Stew. How long was my Lord there Furnese About three Months L. H. Stew. What time of the year Furnese At Paris in October and November in December at Rohan in January we came over into England L. Stafford Ask him if ever I put my Foot upon a Cushion or upon a Stool for lameness Lord. High Steward Mr. Turbervill did you ever see Furnese when you were in France Mr. Turbervill This Man my Lords L H. Stew. Yes Mr. Turbervill No not that I remember L. H. Stew. In what quality did you serve my Lord in France Furnese Furnese My Lords I waited on him in his Chamber L. H. Stew. Do you remember any other Servant of my Lords that you did see there Mr. Turbervill Truly my Lords I don't remember I might forget him Lord Stafford So I believe thou dost me too Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship that could call me Coward may say any thing L. Stafford You shall be as valiant as Hector if you will Pray call my other Boy Who stood up L. H. Stew. You little Boy were you all the while with my Lord that he was in France Leigh Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Turbervill there Leigh No my Lords not that I know of L H. Stew. Had my Lord the Gout in France Leigh No nor never had since I have been with him L. H. Stew. That is six years Leigh Seven years almost my Lords L. H. Stew. Are you sure of that Leigh I am sure of it L. Stafford Now my Lords Mr. Turbervill says I writ him a Letter to Diep which Letter he can't find I beseech you what were the Contents of the Letter L. H. Stew. What were the Contents of the Letter my Lord sent you Mr. Turberv The Contents of the Letter were that I should not stay at Diep in expectation of him for he had appointed a Yatcht to come to Calice but I should make what haste I could to London and there I should meet with him L. Stafford I desire to ask whether I sent him word that Count Gramont came over with me Mr. Turbervill Yes my Lords to the best of my remembrance L. Stafford I shall now bring Witnesses that I did not come by Calice but by Diep and Count Gramont came not with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill which way came you from Diep or from Calice Mr. Turbervill From Diep my Lords L. Stafford And I came from Diep too L. H. Stew. My Lord came that way too he says Mr. Turbervill I know not of it he sent me word otherwise L. Stafford I shall now prove what I say pray call Mr. Wyborne VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord L. Stafford Whether he did not see me at Diep and embark from thence for England Mr. VVyborne My Lords I will give you an Account as well as I can In the year 75. in December I had occasion to go over into France upon my own Concerns and
enquiring where there was a conveniency to go over I heard that a Yatcht was sending to Diep for my Lord Stafford and Mr. Henry Sidney His Majesties Envoy Extraordinary now in Holland I took that occasion and we weighed Anchor on Friday the 24. of December and it being foul weather and we being tossed long upon the Sea we did not come to an Anchor before Diep till Sunday was sevennight at Two a Clock in the Afternoon which was January 2. Then I came with the Captain immediately ashoar to enquire for my Lord and Mr. Sidney I enquired for my Lord and they told me he was at Rohan expecting to hear of the arrival of the Yatcht upon which the Captain desired me to write a Letter to my Lord and I did so upon sight of which Letter he came to Diep on Tuesday in the Afternoon which was as I take it the 4. of January and we were at the Bastile there then together when he came that evening and the next day I went on my own occasions to Paris and my Lord and Mr. Sidney did come over together in the Yatcht L. Stafford If you please I will call my two Servants again to this matter Lord. High Steward Call them my Lord. Then Furnese and Leigh stood up Lord High Steward Which way came my Lord Stafford out of France into England by Diep or by Calice Furnese By Diep L. H. Steward What say you Boy which way came my Lord Leigh By Diep my Lords L. H. Steward You came with him Leigh Yes we did L. H. Stew. My Lord The Question is not whether you came by Calice or no but whether you writ a Letter to him to Diep that you would go by Calice Lord Stafford He swore yesterday that I did come by Calice L. H. Stew. Do you say my Lord came by Calice Mr. Turbervill My Lords I had a Letter from his Lordship which he wrote to me that he would come by Calice L. Stafford He did not name the Letter yesterday nor is 't in the Information L. H. Stew. Read the Affidavit The Information of Edward Turbervill of Skerr in the County of Glamorgan Gent. WHo saith That being a younger Brother about the Year 1672 he became Gentleman Usher to the Lady Mary Molineaux Daughter to the Earl of Powis and by that means lived in the House of the said Earl about three Years and by serving and assisting at Mass there grew intimate with William Morgan Confessor to the said Earl and his Family who was a Jesuit and Rector over all the Jesuits in North-Wales Shropshire and Staffordshire And he during the three years time often heard the said Morgan tell the said Earl and his Lady that the Kingdom was in a high Fever and that nothing but Blood-letting could restore it to Health and then the Catholick Religion would flourish Whereunto the said Earl many times replied It was not yet time but he doâ—â—ted not but such means should be used in due time or words to that effect And he heard the Lady Powis tell the said Morgan and others publickly and privately That when Religion should be restored in England which she doubted not but would be in a very short time she would persuade her Husband to give 300 l. per annum for a Foundation to maintain a Nunnery and this Informant was persuaded by the Lady Powis and the said Morgan to become a Fryar the said Lady enâ—ouraging this Informant thereunto by saying that if he would follow his Studies and make himself capable she questioned not but he might shortly be made a Bishop by her Interest in England because upon Restauration of the Catholick Religion there would want People fit to make Bishops and to do the Business of the Church and thereupon she gave this Informant Ten Pounds to carry him to Doway where this Informant entred the Monastery and continued about three weeks and with much difficulty made his escape thence and returned for England for which the said Earl and his Lady and all the rest that encouraged him to go to the Monastery became his utter Enemies threatning to take away his Life and to get his Brother to disinherit him which last is compassed against him And Father Cudworth who was than Guardian of the Fryars at Doway some days before his escape thence told this Informant That if he should not persevere with them he should lose his life and friends And further added That this King should not last long and that his Successor should be wholly for their purpose And Father Cross Provincial of the Fryars told this Informant That had he been at Doway when this Informant made his escape thence he should never have come to England And this Informant finding himself friendless and in danger in England went to Paris where one of his Brothers is a Benedictine Monk who persuaded this Informant to return for England and in order thereunto about the latter end of November 1675. he was introduced into the acquaintance of the Lord Stafford that he might go for England with his Lordship and three weeks he attended his Lordship and had great access and freedom with his Lordship who gave him great assurances of his Favour and Interest to restore him to his Relations esteem again And said That he had a piece of service to propose to this Informant that would not only retrieve his Reputation with his own Relations but also oblige both them and their Party to make him happy as long he lived And this informant being desirous to embrace so happy an Opportunity was very inquisitive after the means but the said Lord Stafford being somewhat difficult to repose so great a Trust as he was to communicate to him exacted all the Obligations and Promises of secresie which this Informant gave his Lordship in the most solemn manner he could invent Then his Lordship laboured to make this Informant sensible of all the advantages that would accrue to this Informant and the Catholick Cause and then told this Informant in direct terms that he might make himself and the Nation happy by taking away the Life of the King of England who was a Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty Of which this Informant desired his Lordship to give him time to consider and told his Lordship that he would give him his Answer at Diep where his Lordship intended to ship for England and to take this Informant with him but this Informant going before to Diep the Lord Stafford went with Count Gramont by Calice and sent this Informant orders to go for England and to attend his Lordship at London but this Informant did not attend his Lordship at London but went into the French service and so avoided the Lord Stafford's further importunities in that Affair And this Informant further saith That one Remige a French woman and vehement Papist who married this Informants Brother lived with the Lady Powis all the time this Informant resided there
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
make an Assault upon him and would have killed him for being ready to appear against my Lord Aston at his intended Tryal So that he is a man that has more Zeal than Honesty Zeal in no good matter namely to hinder the Truth from coming out against my Lord Aston and therefore we have little reason to wonder Nay all the reason in the world to believe that he says that which is untrue about Mr. Dugdale My Lords There was another Witness Mr. Lydcott that said he was a Fellow of King's Colledge in Cambridge He has offered no proofs that he was so and truly it is very improbable he should be so For I hope Fellowships in the University especially in one of the chief Colledges as this is are bestowed upon more deserving and less suspitious Persons than he appears to be A Man that owns himself the continual Companion and Secretary of one so famous in the Popish Party as my Lord Castlemain is A Man that pretends he was never out of his Company and a man that owns that two years since he was taking of Notes at a Tryal for this Plot not only for his own curiosity but for the service of his Lord who was concerned in the Accusation That this Man should be a Fellow of King's Colledge seems strange and till it be better proved will hardly be believed nor will he deserve any Credit It is true he doth acknowledge himself a Protestant and to be of the Church of England and educated as he says a Presbyterian but when he was asked when he received the Sacrament last I do not remember that he gave your Lordships any Answer This Witness says that he was at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and there Dugdale did swear that he gave notice to Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Death And this they would make to be a great Fault in Dugdale because neither Philips nor Sambidge remember it Now whether Dugdale swore true in that or no does not depend upon Dugdale's own Credit alone but you have heard other Witnesses have made it appear that he did swear true So that we need not say any thing more to this Witness nor to Gifford who testifies to the same purpose because that point as to the report of the death of the Justice of Peace is by other Witnesses clearly proved And as for Mr. Sambidge I do not wonder much that he should say he did not hear it because he could hardly hear what was said to him by the Court or any of the Officers set near him on purpose But My Lords I desire your Lordships to take notice that he was a very angry Witness he said he had formerly had a Controversie with Dugdale that Dugdale had cited him into Litchfield Court and had there a Suit against him for Defamation and he said that against Dugdale which unless better proved must needs make Sambidge much suspected He said that Dugdale was the wickedest Man on Earth but what proof he offer'd of that or whether he did instance in any one particular I leave it to your Lordships Memories My Lords There is another Proof relating to Mr. Dugdale not out of the mouth of a Witness but out of a Paper which I desire to give an Answer to It was an Objection the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to make to Dugdale's Information taken the 24. of December 1678. before the Justices in the Countrey wherein he had said to this purpose Presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went over he was told by George Hobson that there was a Design c. This saith my Lord is most impossible to be true For you say that immediately after the Almoner was gone away Hobson told you this whereas Hobson went away with the Almoner and he came not to live with my Lord Aston till many years afterwards This my Lord is pleased to offer as a falsification of Dugdale's Testimony but my Lords I do desire to observe that this is an Information taken before two Justices of Peace in the Country and if you look upon it you will see it was written by a Country Clerk and not very skilfully done ' Tâ—s rather short Notes of an Examination than a compleat Examination And your Lordships will please likewise to observe that this is not really an Expression that is clear one way or th' other but capable of two Senses that is to say either it may import Hobson told him there was a Design ever since the Almoner Howard went away or it may import Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went away that there was a Design Read but the words with a different Comma and it makes the Sense one way or t'other Now it is plain Dugdale could not intend that Hobson told him so as soon as the Almoner went away because Hobson went away with the Almoner And it was better to his purpose that Hobson should tell him so after his return than before for that shews the Design had been long a carrying on Therefore it being a doubtful Expression that may refer either to the Time he told it to him or to the Matter he told him of and being taken in the latter Sense the Objection faileth I think this Matter can have no weight at all in it to falsifie a positive Testimony My Lords the next Witness we did call and which was objected against by my Lord was Dr. Oats and truly I must observe that his Lordship was not pleased to call any one Witness materially to falsifie Dr. Oats his Testimony and I must likewise observe that Dr. Oats is in the material part of his Evidence supported by other Evidence When Dr. Oats gave Evidence at former Tryals it was the common Discourse of the men of that Religion that Dr. Oats had never been in Spain nor had ever any Credit with the Priests or Jesuits but was a mean contemptible person and that all he said was improbable But now your Lordships have heard that Dr. Oats even by the Testimony of Dennis a Popish Priest that is so to this day was in Spain was according to what he saith brought up in the Colledge of the Jesuits that he was in such esteem there that the Archbishop of Tuam commended him very much in the presence of Dennis and spoke of what expectation there was of him So that Dennis the Priest doth support Dr. Oats in some parts of his Evidence I do not speak of that part of it which concerns this particular Lord but of his Testimony touching the general Plot. There is another thing wherein Dr. Oats is supported by another Witness and that is the Esteem and Intimacy he had with the Jesuits For Mr. Jenison swears that Dr. Oats was a man in esteem among them that he was at Ireland's Chamber and had discourse with Ireland and did appear to be frequently imployed by them And I take these two Witnesses to be a great support to Dr.