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A35922 A dialogue betwixt Whig and Tory, aliàs Williamite and Jacobite Wherein the principles and practices of each party are fairly and impartially stated; that thereby mistakes and prejudices may be removed from amongst us, and all those who prefer English liberty, and Protestant religion, to French slavery and popery, may be inform'd how to choose fit and proper instruments for our preservation in these times of danger. Defoe, Daniel, 1661?-1731, attributed name.; Overton, Benjamin, attributed name. 1693 (1693) Wing D1361; ESTC R229679 34,923 48

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But the Lady apprehending the Thief 's Design very prudently neglected the false Attack and apply'd both her Hands to the s●curing her Jewel and by that means came off safe And so Gentlemen whenever you make your false Attack upon our Commonwealth we shall for the future take it for the Signal to us that your real Aim is at our Liberties and Properties and shall apply both our Hands and Hearts to the securing those Jewels of inestimable Price But to be serious in our case the Whigs as I said in the beginning of our Discourse have given sufficient Proof how little they design'd a Commonwealth and how hearty they were to the Monarchy in their struggling so zealously to set the Crown on the King's Head Tory. We own you were for giving him the Name of a King But after all speak sincerely Did you design to make him any more than a King of Clouts a Duke of Venice or a Statholder Whig We design'd to make him as great a King as the Laws of England and our Ancient Constitution make any King And if you pretend to make him more take the Honour of it But Sir upon this occasion your Party were for making his present Majesty less than either a Duke of Venice or Statholder of Holland For in proposing to make him a Regent you make him only a Journy-man-King a Subject to King Iames and accountable to him But what the Whigs did to deserve being suspected of a Commonwealth-Design or of any Intention to lessen the King's just Power I am yet ignorant Tory. You are wilfully so then for what could the meaning of the Convention be to settle the Revenue of the Crown from three Years to three Years and to take away the Revenue of the Chymney-Money one of the fairest Flowers of the Crown but lessening the King's Power and making his Government precarious Whig The Chimney-Tax being grown a Grievance more sensible and more odious to the common People than any other and the danger of being enslav'd by giving such great Revenues for Life to the two last Kings by which they were enabled to maintain standing Armies and to subsist without Parliaments was so fresh in the Memories of all thinking English-Men and so apprehended by them that the King's Friends thought it greatly for his Service to take away the Burden of the one and the Apprehension of the other from the People and by using different Methods to those which had been follow'd in the former Reigns To make his present Majesty's Government more acceptable to all good Men and that He might hereby reign in the Hearts of his Subjects and be distinguished by them which Method if pursued would have given us a fairer Prospect of our Affairs than at present I am afraid we have But this is not the Interest of wicked Ministers who when Kings take these Courses lose their Dominion over them their business is therefore to make Princes jealous of Encroachments of Parliaments of Commonwealth-Designs amongst the People to represent the King's Interest separate from the Interest of his Subjects and then to ingratiate themselves with him and raise themselves in his Opinion for their Parts and Abilities they offer him Schemes of Politicks to prevent Designs against him which were never thought on Thus these honest Iago's first work a Prince up to Jealousies and Hatred of his People by false Suggestions and then as a Remedy against the Mischiefs they have suppos'd put him upon Designs ruinous to his Country and himself But in the mean time by appearing thus zealous for what they call the King 's particular Interest and Glory they insinuate themselves into some sort of Princes Favour they become Confidents of all Court-Intrigues and grow great and rich they dispose all Offices and crush all who are not their Creatures and at last come to awe and govern Kings themselves As Waiting-Women who when they have debauched their Mistresses by their Mercenary Sollicitations and are become the Trustees of their Frailty they no longer taste the Busk nor bitter Reproofs for misplacing of a Pin or Patch but from Servants become Mistresses no Faults are then found with them no Liberty denied them even the Purse and the rich Petticoat is absolutely at the Waiting-woman's Service till at last they bring their Mistresses to Infamy and Beggary And so to return to the Ministry again By this kind of Management they make their Masters Kings of Clouts necessitous miserable and despis'd Princes For Example What made the late King Iames a King of Clouts but those Evil Counsellors who put him upon Despotick and Dispensing Power and propagating a Religion against Law Who put him upon preferring Papists and Irish to Protestants and English Who advised his seizing Colleges and Charters setting up High-Commission-Courts and making Parliaments and Laws a Nose of Wax Deny this if you can Mr. Tory. Nay as to your Idol-King Charles the Second who notwithstanding I believe much the worse of the two Brothers as sinning against a better Understanding and greater Obligations was it not by these Counsels and some of these Counsellors that this Gentleman was made a King of Clouts too from having all the Advantages at the time of his Restoration that ever King was blessed with He was belov'd delighted in and courted by his Subjects was respected Abroad in Plenty and Power at Home and could direct the Votes of a Parliament with a Nod more than he could at last with his Exchequer yet after all this in a few Years by the Management of some of our present Evil Counsellors who gave him ill Impressions of his Subjects made him out of Love with Parliaments and poison'd him with Lawless Power and Love of Tricks the worst of Poisons to an English King who for their own filthy Interest perswaded him to sell Dunkirk break the Triple League and enter into Measures with France destructive to the Interest of this Nation and of all Europe By these Measures he at last became distasteful to his Subjects and was forsaken by a Parliament the most attach'd to him and in love with his Person to a Fault so that at last his Necessities drove him to become a Pensioner to France And if you will believe Mr. Dreyden his Poet-Laureat concluded his Reign in these miserable Circumstances of being despis'd Abroad and living on Tricks at Home And how these Gentlemens Father and Grandfather were made Kings of Clouts by the like Measures and the like Ministers by endeavouring at Lawless Power and laying aside Parliaments c. even the Histories of those Times publish'd by their own Authority make it out plainly And now Mr. Tory if you please we will examine a little into the few Examples we have of Princes who have practis'd a contrary Method to the before-mentioned one we will enquire what Effects that sort of Government hath produced and we need go no farther I think than Queen Elizabeth's Reign the immediate Predecessor to the Scotish Race
Condition as ours was at the time of the Revolution Were we not the Hopes of all our Allies and the Terror of our Enemies And is not the case alter'd with us I fear it is To be plain a Ministry from Wapping could not have made worse work on 't than yours have done Ministers who know not so much as what Money their Affairs will require but ask the Parliament too little and manage it so as to make it less That want Intelligence so much that Matters of the greatest Consequence have been publick in every Coffee-house three days before it comes to the Secretary's Office particularly the loss of our Merchants Fleet and beating our Army in Flanders As if as one said Secretaries like Cuckolds were to know their Dishonour and Misfortunes last Then the Return of our Fleets for want of Provisions laying out Money in false Expeditions and wanting it thereby in true Necessities imperfect Orders from whence proceeds imperfect Execution and besides they prove an Excuse to Officers even in the most fatal Miscarriages with a thousand more Mismanagements and Treacheries from the top to the bottom of the Ministry too tedious to relate here Tory. And do you think the Government would be better serv'd at this time by Novices and Strangers to Business Whig I have answer'd you that before I think it would be much better serv'd by ignorant Friends than understanding Enemies Tho I am far at the same time from granting you that Point for I am sure there are more Men of Sense and Capacity found amongst the Whigs than amongst the Tories and that Experience is not of such mighty Consequence as you would infer will appear if you will please to call to mind the Men employ'd in Publick Affairs by Cromwel Was ever Government better serv'd than his and yet he chose Men of the most private Condition and one would have thought most unqualified for Publick Business Taylors Draymen broken Shop-keepers raw Scholars and some few of the midling Gentry But being careful to choose Men principled against the Government of King Charles and zealous for the Interest of the Government then on foot they did Wonders supported their Friends and were aweful to their Enemies and this with all the Nobility Gentry and Clergy both Church of England and Presbyterian in perpetual Combinations and Conspiracies against them at home and a War in Ireland Scotland Holland and Spain too upon their Hands And you have an Instance of it in this Government in the Person of one of the Secretaries of Scotland who tho bred in a very private way hath shewed himself a most successful Statesman and of great Consequence to the Welfare of the King's Affairs in that Country and this meerly from his incorruptible Honesty Zeal and Integrity to the present Government without Experience or great Insight into Business Tory. I must grant there is something in what you say Union and Integrity will do great Matters But you Whigs cannot pretend to this for you are not two of you in the same Mind you have no Government no Discipline in your Party no Firmness to one another or to any Point Your great P. F turns Cadet and carries Arms under the General of the West-Saxons the two H s are Engineers under the late Lieutenant of the Ordnance and bomb any Bill which he hath once resolv'd to reduce to Ashes though it were for Recognition or any thing else that is most necessary to our Security Your Iack S. and Iack G. whenever they touch Penny will touch Pot too and drink all in the Bowl be it never so deep And besides this you are always laughing despising or railing at one another some of you are too wise some of you too witty and some of you too honest for the rest jealous and envious of one anothers Favour and Preferment every Man thinking himself fittest to be at the Head of Affairs and hating and reflecting upon those who are so and despising to be govern'd or directed by them And at the same time those who are at the Top disdaining to look down upon those below them tho they were the Steps by which they did ascend they grow stately to their Friends and unmindful of their Fortunes impatient of Addresses hard of Access huddling into little Cabals where they are wise and witty among themselves whilst we Tories on the contrary have but one Heart one Voice one Purse and one Interest excuse and justify one anothers Faults prefer the meanest Fool or Knave of our Party and in return the Underlings are every Man in a perfect Obedience to this Superior to vote rail write or talk according to Direction and not otherwise Whig I owe there is too much Truth in what you say and you speak Truth so seldom that we ought to allow it you when you do But I hope we have seen the Error of our Disunion and shall amend it for the future And however we may have had Personal Differences and likewise may have been too much divided and too obstinate in some Opinions yet still in all Times and under all Discouragements we have all agreed to the same end viz. The Publick Good of our Country and the Support of its Laws and Liberties and in this present Reign have been and are unanimous against King Iames and his Interest and have at all times with one Consent own'd his present Majesty Rightful and Lawful which I take to be the Shibboleth to distinguish those who are alone fit to serve this Government And till there be an Act of Recognition in Force I will be bold to say all the other Steps of our ablest and honestest Statesmen will be upon Boggy Ground nor can any Man be reasonably employ'd in any Office who hath not taken this Test for whoever thinks King William not Rightful must think King Iames is so and the same Conscience which leads them to believe him Rightful will incline them to assist that Right when they have opportunity but to return to the Point of your Charge we must confess likewise that we have not been so much under the Government of our Superiours as you are nor so industrious in supporting each others private and particular Interests But to the first I might answer That Fools and Beggars are more easily led by the Nose than Men of Sense and Estates And as to the latter I must put you in mind that the Societies of Ignatius and of Newgate are both of them as much united as you in universal Mischief for Roguery makes a stronger Glew and Cement than Vertue because there are more Men capable of the former than of the latter And tho it were to be wish'd that the Whigs were more friendly and had more Concern for the Support of one another in all their honest Pretences yet God forbid there should ever be such a Friendship and Partiality amongst them as to condemn and disgrace those who gain Victories because they are not of their Party and to support and defend those who have lost the Ships Trade and Honour of the Nation because they are their Creatures But on the other side where it is without offence to Justice and the Publick Interest all Unanimity and Friendship is to be admir'd prais'd and pray'd for and I hope you will find it amongst us for the future till it becomes the Subject of your Envy instead of being an Occasion of Reproach To put an end to this Argument 'T is plain with all your Friendships and Union and other Politicks you have brought the Nation and all its Allies to the lowest Condition both in Power and Reputation You have almost put it out of the Skill of any Conduct to recover us and whoever now takes the Administration of Affairs upon them will be apply'd to the Government like Pigeons to the Feet of dying Men. But however to those who are true Lovers of their Country no Time seems too late to attempt its Relief no Difficulty so great as to discourage them from endeavouring it and tho as the Case stands it is more than probable we may miscarry under the best Conduct yet it is undeniable we must miscarry under yours And so I take my Leave FINIS * Otherwise K. I. would have a fairer Pretence than I hope we shall ever allow him * The first Instance I have met of their Modesty * A College of Jesuits in that place * A fine Character for an English King * A new Distinction our Statesmen have lately found out