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A35922 A dialogue betwixt Whig and Tory, aliàs Williamite and Jacobite Wherein the principles and practices of each party are fairly and impartially stated; that thereby mistakes and prejudices may be removed from amongst us, and all those who prefer English liberty, and Protestant religion, to French slavery and popery, may be inform'd how to choose fit and proper instruments for our preservation in these times of danger. Defoe, Daniel, 1661?-1731, attributed name.; Overton, Benjamin, attributed name. 1693 (1693) Wing D1361; ESTC R229679 34,923 48

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violently oppos'd your Majesty's being crown'd King as to lay an eternal Obligation on K. I. by it I say Sir is it reasonable to believe this Gentleman so proper a Secretary of State to your Majesty as the E. of S. who hath so mortally disobliged K. I. by being so early and so zealous in your Interests who went at the Head of that Message to K. I. wherein he was required to retire from Whitehall who hath since that been so instrumental to place and preserve the Crown upon your Head and hath in a word broken all Measures so with K. I. as to leave no Possibility of a Reconciliation to him and consequently hath no Retreat from this Government but is oblig'd in common Sense to serve Your Majesty faithfully and zealously Or can your Majesty think Mr. K. who it is generally said believes himself the Son of K. I. and it is known by all the World owes his Fortune to him who if we may believe Report at the time of the Revolution agreed with Captain Tosyer to carry the Ships he then commanded in the Straits to K. Iames in France had not the common Sailers very rudely oppos'd the Project who after this acquitted himself so ill at Cadiz in letting the Thoulon Squadron pass by him in his sight without fighting them and to conclude hath made so unaccountable a Campagne of it this Summer can your Majesty give me leave to say Sir think this Gentleman after all this fitter to command the Fleet of England than Mr. R. whose Provocations to K. I. are never to be forgiven by him who was one of the most instrumental Men in England in placing You upon the Throne who last Year gave you the greatest and most glorious Victory that ever was obtain'd by us at Sea and whose Courage Conduct and Fidelity the Parliament of England hath unanimously attested And now Sir If I may presume so far will Your Majesty be pleas'd to examine what Honour what Profit hath accrued to You or the Nation by your employing these Gentlemen who have of late been at the Head of the Ministry For God's sake Sir cast up the Account of the last four Years Management and see what You have gain'd by changing VVhigs for Tories Have not Your Affairs gone backward both at Home and Abroad Have not Mismanagements been multiply'd Have You not cool'd Your Friends and yet not gain'd your Enemies Do not almost all the Tories You employ drink K. Iames's Health in Your Wine and serve Him in Your Offices Do They not obstruct all Business which ought to be dispatch'd and dispatch all Business which ought to be obstructed browbeat Your Friends and delay them in their most just Pretences but comply with your Enemies in their most unreasonable Demands nay connive at their Cabals and Conspiracies and snatch them out of the Hands of Justice when the Law hath pass'd Sentence of Death upon them for their Treasons Would not such Ministers and Friends as these be less dangerous to You when profess'd Enemies nay in Arms against You in the Field than in your Council Cabinet and Offices Undoubtedly they would But I know the common Answer to all these kind of Complaints is That it is more easy to find Faults than Remedies If You please therefore Sir we will consider of Remedies and I think there may be some found out both easy and certain and they are these First Sir be pleased to remove from your Person Council and Offices of Trust Men bred up and confirm'd in Principles destructive to our English Government and hateful to Your People and to discountenance all State-Projectors and Mountebank-Ministers who make Wounds in the State to recommend their Balsam Throw out Sir these Achans to be ston'd by the People who will otherwise I fear prevent God's Favour to You who blast Your Success Abroad and rob You of the Affections of Your Subjects at Home with their Accursed Thing I mean that Tinsel Power with which these Miscreants dazle the Eyes of Princes and lead them out of the right way God is displeased with it For uncontroulable and unaccountable Power is the Right and Attribute of God alone and as the Scripture tells us He will not give his Glory unto another nor suffer those to act as Gods who are to die like Men. Your People also will be displeased with a Despotick Power for the Kings of England are bound by Laws by Mutual Compacts c. as You your Self Sir have set forth most unanswerably in your Declaration when You came over and if these are broken English-Men who believe themselves Subjects to the Crown of England as by Law establish'd and not Slaves to any particular Person they become impatient angry and at length perhaps unreasonable And whenever they see their King beset with Ministers of Lawless Principles those wholesale Merchants of Arbitrary Power they grow mistrustful and uneasy and are apt in such Cases to shut their Purses and open their Mouths And give me leave to say Sir had not the People been made apprehensive and jealous by seeing these Men in the Ministry whose mischievous Methods they were so well acquainted with and did so much abhor no general Excise no Loans no Powers would have been thought by the People of England too much to have intrusted You with so highly they esteem'd your Generous Relief of them your unequal Courage and the many other admirable Vertues they saw shine in You. An English King is the greatest Monarch upon Earth when he reigns in the Hearts of his Subjects and all other Methods to Power and Greatness have been found ineffectual in England I remember I once saw written over a Mercer's Shop Keep thy Shop and thy Shop will keep Thee and tho it be a homely Allusion it is very applicable to the present Point Keep your Laws Sir and your Laws will keep You support your People in their Rights and Liberties and Queen Elizab●th shall pass her Royal Word for them they will support Your just Prerogative at Home and Your Honour Abroad And Sir by the way do not let Your Flatterers give You a cheap Opinion of a Power deriv'd from the People for it is undoubtedly from their Consent that all Power must come Nor let them make You uneasy that Your Title to the Crown is from the universal free Choice of the Commons of England Believe me Your Ministers nor the two Learned Bishops who have scribled upon this Subject will never be able to find You a better In the next place Discharge all Iacobites and Trimmers from Offices of Trust For such as either desire K. Iames or from their Fear or Wisdom endeavour to deserve from him so much as their Pardon I humbly conceive are unfit for Your Service at this Juncture tho when the Government is more settled I am for entertaining all who give Proofs of their Penitence for their past Actions and Opinions But Sir Purgatives will not alone perfect the Cure
I know not what some hot-headed drunken Men may have said and done at the Bath or elsewhere but this I know that a whole Party ought not to share the Miscarriages of some few particular Men. Whig You are in the right if that were the case but it is undeniable that this Insolence is universal and even amongst those of you employ'd and paid by the Government Tory. This is a sore Place I find you are ever complaining of But why are you angry with us for being in Places Did we seek them Were we not sought courted intreated to accept of Employments And since you provoke me I 'll tell you the Reason the King found none of you Whigs capable of or fit for Business he saw you too of a sowre morose Temper jealous of Prerogative affecting Popularity childishly fond of Trifles and tenacious of Lawless Liberty whilst we are frank and easy in all these Matters and know the Respect that is due to Crown'd Heads Whig That is when they are rightful Tory. Come you will make no Prince have the worse Opinion of us for that The Right Line Passive Obedience and Non-Resistance Prerogative c. will always sound well in every King's Ear. And when he considers us Enemies to his Title only out of a Principle of Loyalty he will have reason rather to accuse his own Misfortune than our Vertue we plainly and honestly told him our Principles that we believ'd him a King de facto only and our Honour in this Point made him rely upon our Honour in others Whig Let us examine then how honourably how gratefully you have behav'd your selves to a King who hath relied on you and oblig'd you so extreamly We will pass by those who refuse to swear Allegiance to him upon the above-mentioned honourable Pretences and only mention those who have accepted Employments of Profit and Trust. Have not even those in the Government both in England and Scotland been plotting the Dethroning this King who hath trusted them so generously and courted them so kindly Particularly did not one of your Party at the beginning of this Government give notice to the King's Enemies of Warrants against them in order to their making their Escape and was discharg'd his Employment upon it Did not a Brother of a certain Secretary give out Blank Passes under the Hand and Seal of that Secretary by which a Correspondence was carried on betwixt this Place and France securely And was not this Gentleman upon this Account laid aside gently and privately and this Matter huddled up for fear of any Reflection upon our Monarchical Favourites and put upon the Publick as Passes forg'd as indeed they were by our own Officers and a Lame Proclamation put out with Rewards to the Discoverer but without a Pardon for Life when they knew the whole Matter before-hand H●ve not some Women lately been taken going to France with Letters to King Iames with a Scotish Secretrary's Pass under his Hand and Seal Was not an Officer of the Post-Office lately found corresponding with France and without any other Punishment for his Capital Crime laid aside gently and privately The Story of Capt. Iohn Layton late Commander of the St. Albans and which hath been told in the House of Commons will shew you how faithfully you Tories serve the Government and how fit you are to be trusted Captain Layton being ordered to Cruise twenty Leagues off Vshant by a Storm of Wind was driven to Cape Clear where he met a French Privateer and took her the Captain of the Privateer ask'd Layton the Name of his Ship which he told him upon this the Privateer looking into his Pocket-Book ask'd Layton how he came there for by his Intelligence the Station of the St. Albans was to be twenty Leagues from Vshant and no further And the like Story is told of a Transport-Ship going to France with Prisoners some few Months ago who meeting with divers Privateers ask'd them how they durst be so bold as Cruise there when four English Men of War were within six Leagues of them they reply'd they knew the Station of those English and that they could not come where they were a cruising but by breaking their Orders But the Relation of the Sailer who was taken and for some time serv'd aboard an Irish Privateer is yet more remarkable for he deposeth That they told him thee Months before the Streights Fleet sailed from Spithead both the time when they were to sail the number of their Convoy and likewise that the Main Fleet was to go no further than beyond Vshant Now how they could come by this Intelligence but from Officers imploy'd by and sworn to the Government I know not and if so how faithfully and honourably you Tories serve Those who trust you and how fit you are to be employ'd in this critical Time I appeal to all the World Tory. These are malicious Stories and if strictly enquired into will prove false I dare say Whig Whenever there is a Committee of indifferent Men ordered to take the Examination I am inform'd all this will be proved and much more and how reasonable it is to expect this and any other Treachery from you will appear probable to those who see you in all Offices daily and publickly drinking King Iames's Health who see one Clerk going to a non-swearing Doctor to take Advice whether he may serve the Government as a writing Clerk without Damnation to his Soul Yes replies the Doctor for thereby you keep out an ill Man and may serve your rightful King upon occasion To see another Clerk valuing himself to his Companions that his Place thank God does not oblige him to take the Oaths to the Government To see Officers of the greatest Trust in the Admiralty in Clubs twice a Week with Mr. P ps Mr. Ew rs and other known Iacobites and from Saturday to Monday constantly living with them Night and Day Tory. I know who you mean one of them is a Nephew to one of the Gentlemen and expects 40000 l. from him and would you have him renounce such an Expectance in Consideration of your Place Whig No but I would have the Government renounce such an Officer that had such an Expectation from such an Unkle Tory. But where could you get such able Officers if these were discharged Whig As the case stands one honest Man will be of more Service than ten such able Men the Forms of Business will be quickly learned and want of Experience will be less fatal to us than want of Fidelity Most of the under-Places require a very indifferent Understanding and little Experience to carry the Business on And if you ascend to the Ministry I cannot help thinking my Lords Sh y or Sir I. Tr d as able Secretaries as the E. of N. and Mr. R ll as able an Admiral as Mr. K. c What is it your able Men have done for us pray this four Years Was ever any Government in so promising a
Condition as ours was at the time of the Revolution Were we not the Hopes of all our Allies and the Terror of our Enemies And is not the case alter'd with us I fear it is To be plain a Ministry from Wapping could not have made worse work on 't than yours have done Ministers who know not so much as what Money their Affairs will require but ask the Parliament too little and manage it so as to make it less That want Intelligence so much that Matters of the greatest Consequence have been publick in every Coffee-house three days before it comes to the Secretary's Office particularly the loss of our Merchants Fleet and beating our Army in Flanders As if as one said Secretaries like Cuckolds were to know their Dishonour and Misfortunes last Then the Return of our Fleets for want of Provisions laying out Money in false Expeditions and wanting it thereby in true Necessities imperfect Orders from whence proceeds imperfect Execution and besides they prove an Excuse to Officers even in the most fatal Miscarriages with a thousand more Mismanagements and Treacheries from the top to the bottom of the Ministry too tedious to relate here Tory. And do you think the Government would be better serv'd at this time by Novices and Strangers to Business Whig I have answer'd you that before I think it would be much better serv'd by ignorant Friends than understanding Enemies Tho I am far at the same time from granting you that Point for I am sure there are more Men of Sense and Capacity found amongst the Whigs than amongst the Tories and that Experience is not of such mighty Consequence as you would infer will appear if you will please to call to mind the Men employ'd in Publick Affairs by Cromwel Was ever Government better serv'd than his and yet he chose Men of the most private Condition and one would have thought most unqualified for Publick Business Taylors Draymen broken Shop-keepers raw Scholars and some few of the midling Gentry But being careful to choose Men principled against the Government of King Charles and zealous for the Interest of the Government then on foot they did Wonders supported their Friends and were aweful to their Enemies and this with all the Nobility Gentry and Clergy both Church of England and Presbyterian in perpetual Combinations and Conspiracies against them at home and a War in Ireland Scotland Holland and Spain too upon their Hands And you have an Instance of it in this Government in the Person of one of the Secretaries of Scotland who tho bred in a very private way hath shewed himself a most successful Statesman and of great Consequence to the Welfare of the King's Affairs in that Country and this meerly from his incorruptible Honesty Zeal and Integrity to the present Government without Experience or great Insight into Business Tory. I must grant there is something in what you say Union and Integrity will do great Matters But you Whigs cannot pretend to this for you are not two of you in the same Mind you have no Government no Discipline in your Party no Firmness to one another or to any Point Your great P. F turns Cadet and carries Arms under the General of the West-Saxons the two H s are Engineers under the late Lieutenant of the Ordnance and bomb any Bill which he hath once resolv'd to reduce to Ashes though it were for Recognition or any thing else that is most necessary to our Security Your Iack S. and Iack G. whenever they touch Penny will touch Pot too and drink all in the Bowl be it never so deep And besides this you are always laughing despising or railing at one another some of you are too wise some of you too witty and some of you too honest for the rest jealous and envious of one anothers Favour and Preferment every Man thinking himself fittest to be at the Head of Affairs and hating and reflecting upon those who are so and despising to be govern'd or directed by them And at the same time those who are at the Top disdaining to look down upon those below them tho they were the Steps by which they did ascend they grow stately to their Friends and unmindful of their Fortunes impatient of Addresses hard of Access huddling into little Cabals where they are wise and witty among themselves whilst we Tories on the contrary have but one Heart one Voice one Purse and one Interest excuse and justify one anothers Faults prefer the meanest Fool or Knave of our Party and in return the Underlings are every Man in a perfect Obedience to this Superior to vote rail write or talk according to Direction and not otherwise Whig I owe there is too much Truth in what you say and you speak Truth so seldom that we ought to allow it you when you do But I hope we have seen the Error of our Disunion and shall amend it for the future And however we may have had Personal Differences and likewise may have been too much divided and too obstinate in some Opinions yet still in all Times and under all Discouragements we have all agreed to the same end viz. The Publick Good of our Country and the Support of its Laws and Liberties and in this present Reign have been and are unanimous against King Iames and his Interest and have at all times with one Consent own'd his present Majesty Rightful and Lawful which I take to be the Shibboleth to distinguish those who are alone fit to serve this Government And till there be an Act of Recognition in Force I will be bold to say all the other Steps of our ablest and honestest Statesmen will be upon Boggy Ground nor can any Man be reasonably employ'd in any Office who hath not taken this Test for whoever thinks King William not Rightful must think King Iames is so and the same Conscience which leads them to believe him Rightful will incline them to assist that Right when they have opportunity but to return to the Point of your Charge we must confess likewise that we have not been so much under the Government of our Superiours as you are nor so industrious in supporting each others private and particular Interests But to the first I might answer That Fools and Beggars are more easily led by the Nose than Men of Sense and Estates And as to the latter I must put you in mind that the Societies of Ignatius and of Newgate are both of them as much united as you in universal Mischief for Roguery makes a stronger Glew and Cement than Vertue because there are more Men capable of the former than of the latter And tho it were to be wish'd that the Whigs were more friendly and had more Concern for the Support of one another in all their honest Pretences yet God forbid there should ever be such a Friendship and Partiality amongst them as to condemn and disgrace those who gain Victories because they are not of their Party and to support and defend those who have lost the Ships Trade and Honour of the Nation because they are their Creatures But on the other side where it is without offence to Justice and the Publick Interest all Unanimity and Friendship is to be admir'd prais'd and pray'd for and I hope you will find it amongst us for the future till it becomes the Subject of your Envy instead of being an Occasion of Reproach To put an end to this Argument 'T is plain with all your Friendships and Union and other Politicks you have brought the Nation and all its Allies to the lowest Condition both in Power and Reputation You have almost put it out of the Skill of any Conduct to recover us and whoever now takes the Administration of Affairs upon them will be apply'd to the Government like Pigeons to the Feet of dying Men. But however to those who are true Lovers of their Country no Time seems too late to attempt its Relief no Difficulty so great as to discourage them from endeavouring it and tho as the Case stands it is more than probable we may miscarry under the best Conduct yet it is undeniable we must miscarry under yours And so I take my Leave FINIS * Otherwise K. I. would have a fairer Pretence than I hope we shall ever allow him * The first Instance I have met of their Modesty * A College of Jesuits in that place * A fine Character for an English King * A new Distinction our Statesmen have lately found out