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A88157 An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth. Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. 1645 (1645) Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845 46,842 48

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nationall churches cityes or daughters that depend vpon her one of which England is and woe to that man at that day that is found within her territories or the Paile of her great catholike church or the walls of her great wide and farre spread spirituall citty Alas man there is a great deale of difference betwixt King Edwards and Queen Maryes times and ours now the martyrs and people of God were then but newly enlightned to see the blake and spirituall darke Kingdome of Satan and Antichrist in which they were brought up the darkenesse whereof was so great the Sun and the Aire was both clouded Rev. 9 2. and the bright shining light of the old and new Testament shut vp in much obscurity to what it is now and they did but see the abominable wickednes of his kingdome a farre of like the man in the Gospell whose eyes Christ opened who at his first looking up did see men walking a farre off like trees even so they saw but the truthes a farre off which made them rejoyce at a little Reformation and highly to esteeme of those things in the worship and service of God that now are made manifest by the light of truth before the open Sun to be no fitter for Gods worship and Service then kennell dirte being meer Idols and those Idolaters that communicate with them and though they rejoyced at a little Reformation of Antichrists errours but now it is made manifest that no Reformation of his Kingdome will serve the turne but it must be now annihilated and nullified before the visible Kingdome of Christ can flourish and become the praise of the whole Earth and you know and confesse they would have no Communion with the Church of Rome from which they thought they had seperated neither with that abominable Idoll the Masse which you confesse they counted detestable though they had communion with the Church of England and the Service-Booke but now the Church of England is proved againe and againe by hundreds of the Seperation and others in their disputes Sermons and writings to be as Antichristian as the Church of Rome and the Service Booke to be as detestable as the Idol of the Masse being even one and the same with it saving that it is in Latine and this in English as Noble Dr. Bastwicke hath proved And what though the abomination and fornication of that great Red WHOORE of Rome in King Edwards time was not so fully laid open but that the Martyrs and chosen people of God did then commit some spirituall Fornication with her must we therefore doe the like no God forbid for the Lambe that standeth upon mount Syon with an Hundred fourty and four Thowsand of his Elect and chosen ones having his Fathers name written in their Foreheads hath proclaimed and made it manifest that Babilon or spiritaall Rome is now fallen and is become the habitation of Divells and tho hold of every soul spirit and the Cage of every uncleane and hatefull Bird with whom Gods people now at no hand are not to be mixed in spirituall Society or Communion And what though the everlasting Gospell then was not so fully preached and revealed as now it is so that Gods people then were exceeding ignorant of it and by their blindnesse thought they thought they had seperated away from the Beasts Kingdome yet were they in it and did worship him must it then follow that we must doe so too no for now the great City Rome is much more fallen and descovered then it was and now a third Angell hath proclaimed it with a lowd voyce having his Commission from God so to doe that seing now the Booke is opened and the trueth of the everlasting Gospell is preached and Light is now brought into the world so that now if after all this a man worship the Beast and his Image or receive in his right hand or in his forhead his marke the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is powred out without mixture into the Cup of his Indignation and he shall be tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the Angells and in the presence of the Lambe and the smoke of their Torment ascended up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night that worship the Beast or his Image or receive the marke of his Name Rev. 14.8.9.10.11 Wherefore saith the Spirit of God Came out of her any people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receive not of her plagues chap. 18.5 here is the expresse command of God himselfe to all his chosen and elect ones to separate away from all Antichristian Assemblies and not in the least to partake with them in any of their worship ordinances or administrations which precept if any of them refuse to obey let them know that God will plague them and though for his Covenant sake he save their soules yet it will be through much difficulty accompaned with many an heavy and sad heart and many a bitter uncomfortable Crosse Therefore let all Gods people that yet are in her or in the bosome of the Church of England her daughter as they love their own inward peace and spirituall joy and looke that their soules should prosper and florish with grace and Godlines looke to it and withdraw their spirituall obedidience and subjection from all Antichrists Lawes and worship and now joyne themselves as fellow Cttizens of the City of God to worship and serue him in mount Syon the beauty of holynesse and there only to yeild all spirituall obedience to Christs spirituall Lawes and Scepter Now my Opposite I have fully by the authority of the sacred and pure word of God particularly answered your trifling childish and frothy arguments and proved against you and them that the church ministery and worship in England is all of them Antichristian from which all Gods people are bound in consolence ind in paine of undergoing the Lords high displeasure hnd indignation and heing portakers of his fearfull and dreadfull plagues to separate away from it and to have no communion with it Therefore to you my Opposer I say with the Prophet to backstyding Israel I● God be God follow him or if Baall or Antichrist or Rome he God then follow him And so much for the Answering of your erronious Arguments BUt now you will it may be say if salvation as you have confessed and proved may be had in a false Ch. yea in no Gh. then wherefore doe you enter into and become a member of a true Church My Answ to this is in the first place negatively I doe not enter thereinto for to be saved thereby or for to seeke for Jesus Christ as though I wanted either for I have both Christ and salvation as all those ought to have that become fellow citzens of the City of God as I have before largely proved neither doe I enter into into it to live securely and carelesly in sin
which the Theife was hanged was a true church for there he had salvation the apprehension of Gods love his assurance of his enterance into the Kingdome of glory as fully as ever any in the ch of En. had and also it will follow that the Chariot in which the Eunuch rode Acts 8. was a true ch for there he came to the knowledg of his salvation the apprehension of the true love of God in Christ also you know God by his almighty power saved Daniel the three children alive even in the Lyons den and in the hot burning furnace and because God by his power did this shall I therefore goe cast my false into the fire and among the Lyons say they have no power to burne me or kill me but I am safe enough because God preserved Daniel and the three children alive in the like condition every wise man would conclude surely I were out of my wits So you see how erronious rotten insufficient unsound all your grounds arguments are in the lying downe of which you run with your deceitfull Logike like a blind horse in a mill about about and still come to the same place where you begun never in the least prove any thing you say by the authority of the word of God nor yet by any grounded reason but ruly your false affirmations for the wind that comes out of you mouth is so weak and feeble that it will scarce blow away a straw if it lie in your way And then in the last place you bring an Arg. in the necke of this being of the same nature with the former and it is this That because Latimer Hooper Bradford with many others were martyrs in your ch and were saved ss●… by the judgment of charity not infalibly wee may judge were saved and knew the corruptions of your church and yet did not separate away from it therefore it is a true Church and need not be separated from seeing men may be saved in it Truly I must confesse unto you I am almost weary with answering your paultery old rotten mouldy stuffe and you are such a novice in the misteries of God and godlynesse and the Kingdome of his Son Jesus Christ not understanding what you say or affirme nor bow to prove an Argument that I am almost loath any more to contend with you in regard the victory in overcomeing you will be so poore and meane and your wares are such paltery and peplary commodities that I am even tyred with lookeing upon them and turning them over but yet for all this I will a litle reply to this your last Argument but I hope you do not hold that maxime in the Church of Rome extra ecclesia nulla salus that is out of the Church no salvation if you doe it is most erronious for I have proved it and the whole New Testament doth declare it that it is possible for a man to be saved though he be a member of no visible Church yea and that some that are joyned to a false Church may be saved but yet if they may be so it is no ground for their staying or abiding there for God cals and commands all his people to be separated from the World and all false churches 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Rev. 18.4 but it seemes by your reasoning you hold that if a man get salvation and get to heaven and so get his own ends served let Gods glory goe a begging and lye at the stake a bleeding for all you but truly such a servant deserves no wages but rather punishent for alas man this is but selfe seeking at the best in which a man can have no spirituall comfort and joy But God would have his people to joy and rejoyc in walking in his wayes and sing and be merry and be of a chearefull countenance as it doth become the heires of the Crowne of glory and he would have them not only as it were creep into Heaven but to strive and labour to have an abundant enterane thereinto 1 Pet. 19.10.11 but by your reasoning you would have them never be merry joyfull nor chearfull for in false wayes there is no peace nor comfort Esa 59 8 9.11 Mal. 2.2 but live like forlorne men destitute of all comfort hanging downe their heads like bulrushes and so dishonour their God and their Christ in the eyes of the men of the world who will glory and triumph over them as though there were not that sweetnes beautifulnes amiablenes fulnes satisfaction and contednes in the enjoying of God in his Son Christ that might make them walke with merry counterances chearfull hearts and reioycing soules as it becomes the Sons and heires of the King of glory disdaining contemning and lightly esteeming the base and empty moth eaten contents of this present world and to have their affections crucified to it and it to them and though they be in the world yet to walke as those whose conversation is already in Heaven longing and desiring to be dissolved to be with Christ which is best of all Away man Christ hath no need of such unserviceable selfe seeking servants as you on are to weare his glorious and rich Livery and let me tell you God never sent his sonne Christ to save us for that end to live at ease and delight as we lift or in the fashion of the World but that we should glorifie him in being unlike to the World in our lives and conversation by an unblameable walking in all his wayes labouring and endeavouring to yeild obedience to all his Lawes and commaunds not suffering our hearts to be possessed with base feares of the world nor be in love with the things thereof but that wee should hold forth the profession of the purity of his truth and Gospell without feare before the eyes of the world and though wee suffer persecution affliction and tribulation for it that wee should joy and rejoce in it and esteem it our Crown and happines that the Lord counts us worthy to suffer for his sake And truly let me tell you he that seekes but his own ends and so that he could be but saved cares for no more not regarding or takeing thought what becomes of Gods glory honour and praise it is an evident and demonstrable signe that that man doth not belong to God nor never shall be heire of glory John 14.23.24 25.8.14 1 John 3.8.10 2.9 Rev. 12.11 14.4 And what if Latimer and the rest of the martyrs had communion with the Church of England is that a sufficient ground that therefore wee must not separate away from it I hope not for what if God winked at their blindnes darkenes and ignorance yet now let me say with Paul that in truth he will have all his people to come to the knowledge of his truth and wayes Acts 17.20 because he hath appoynted a day wherein he will shortly judge that great scarlet whore of Rome and all her