they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledges of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many Priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to themselves and their Heirs B. It 's true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better Right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of that distinction But upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal priviledges And now seeing there be so very few born before King James's coming in what greater priviledge had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their Voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is requir'd to the Laws there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions and yet they are all equally natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their March should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was only to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had receiv'd from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above New-Castle where they found some little opposition from a Party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scotch easily master'd and as soon as they were over seiz'd upon New-Castle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon The Conclusion was that all should be referr'd to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster on the third of November following being in the same Year 1640. and thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No the Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintain'd at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be decided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it believ'd that the King made War first upon the Parliament and besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him Therefore they resolv'd to proceed with him like skilful Hunters first to single him out by Men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open Field and then in case he should but seem to turn head to call that a making of War against the Parliament And first they call'd in question such as had either preached or written in defence of any of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves Whereupon some few Preachers and Writers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea And whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other crimes of high nature had therefore been censured by the King's Council in the Star-Chamber and imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at liberty which was accordingly done with great applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the King 's Right to Ship-Money B. Ship-Money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritime or not for the building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaim'd against it as an oppression and one of their Members that had been taxed but 20 s. mark the oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a year Land taxed at 20 s. they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast Again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the Legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were afrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute-Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other Men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for
and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by profession or such Gentlemen as had the Ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their Counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they used to praise by the Name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy And those Men whose Pens the King most used in these Controversies of Law and Politicks were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaimed against Ship-Money and other Extraparliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their Demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the follies and other faults of men during this trouble but not by naming the persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now that the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the business was brought to this height by Levying of Soldiers and seizing of the Navy and Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King himself by a Bill that he passed at the same time when he passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore he had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolved them they would to their former defamations of his Majesties Actions have added this that he was a breaker of his word and not only in contempt of him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthening of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which Condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken And I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the Right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer For the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing of this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the two Houses pleased But now that the War was resolved on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writing A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from Levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in print to make the People know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of his own Commissions of Array And the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the People the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend himself and his Right though there had been no other Title for it but his own Preservation and that the Name of Commission of Array had never before been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts at Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudged which they call Presidents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were very glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good Patriots and wise States-men B. What was this Commission of Array A. King William the Conqueror had gotten into his hands by Victory all the Land in England of which he disposed some part as Forests and Chases for his Recreation and some part to Lords and Gentlemen that had assisted him or were to assist him in the Wars upon which he laid a charge of Service in his Wars some with more men and some with less according to the Lands he had given them whereby when the King sent men unto them with Commission to make use of their Service they were obliged to appear with Arms and to accompany the King to the Wars for a certain time at their own charges and such were the Commissions by which this King did then make his Levies B. Why then was it not legal A. No doubt but it was legal but what did that amount to with men that were already resolv'd to acknowledge for Law nothing that was against their Design of abolishing Monarchy and placing a Sovereign and absolute arbitrary Power in the House of Commons B. To destroy Monarchy and set up the House of Commons are two businesses A. They found it so at last but did not think it so then B. Let us now come to the Military part A. I intended only the Story of their Injustice Impudence and Hypocrisie therefore for the proceeding of the War I refer you to the History thereof written at
translated into English by Thomas Hobbs Popish Cruelties shewed in a Narrative of Parey's Tryal and Condemnation in Folio 1 s. An Historical Narration of Heresie by Tho. Hobbs in Folio The Life of Tho. Hobbs in a Poem in English in Fol. Consideration on the Loyalty Religion Reputation and Manners of Mr. Hobbs in Octavo price bound 1 s. The Memoires and rare Adventures of Silvia Moliere all the six parts in Twelves price 4 s. Tho. Hobbs Angli Malmsbur Vita being an Account of Mr. Hobbs of the Books he wrote of the times when and the occasions thereof of the Books and Authors against him of his Conversation and Acquaintance c. in Octavo printed 1681. LAW The Jurisdiction of the Authority of Court Leets Court Barons Court Marshals c. by J. Kitchin in Octavo Praxis Curiae Admiralitatis Angliae Author Francis Clark in Twelves Sir Simon Deiggs Parsons-Councellor in Octavo third Edition 1681. Clerks Manual a Book of Presidents in Octavo Officina Brevium select forms of Writs and other process c. Of the Court of Common-Pleas at Westminster c. in Folio price 12 s. printed 1680 A Dialogue betwixt a Student and a Philosopher about the Common Laws of England in Octavo by Thomas Hobbs Poetry and Plays Melpomene or the Muses delight in Octavo The Confinement with Annot. in Octavo The White Devil in Quarto Catiline's Conspiracy in Quarto Rival Kings in Quarto Old Troop in Quarto Amorous Gallant in Quarto Mock Duellist in Quarto Wrangling Lovers in Quarto Tom Essence in Quarto French Conjurer in Quarto Wits led by the Nose in Quarto Counterfeit Bridegroom in Quarto Tunbridg-Wells in Quarto Man of New-Market in Quarto Constant Nymph in Quarto Miscellanies The Deaf and Dumb Man's Discourse in Octavo The compleat Measurer in Octavo The American Physitian in Octavo Lord Bacon's Apothegms in Twelves 6 d. bound Hobbs's and Lany about Liberty in Twelves Reflections of Philosophers in Octavo Hobbs Natural Philosophy in Octavo Feavers cured by Jesuites Powder in 12 o 1681. Oliver Cromwell's Sermon preached 1649. Filmer of Usury in Twelves Saunders's Physicks in Octavo The Court of Curiosity being the Interpretation of Dreams and a Fortune-Book in Octavo 1681. Hobbs his defence of his Leviathan in Octavo Hobbs his Physical Problems in Octavo The Addresses defended by Dr. J. H. The Remains of the three great Wits viz. Abraham Cowly Sir John Berkenhead and Samuel Butler the Author of Hudibrass aprinting in Quarto The fifteen Comforts of inconsiderate Marriage Twelves and price 1 s. FINIS AN ANSWER TO A BOOK Published by Dr. BRAMHALL late Bishop of Derry CALLED The Catching of the Leviathan Together With an Historical Narration Concerning HERESIE And the Punishment thereof By THOMAS HOBBES of Malmesbury LONDON Printed for W. Crooke at the Green Dragon without Temple-Barr 1682. TO THE READER AS in all things which I have written so also in this Piece I have endeavoured all I can to be perspicuous but yet your own attention is always necessary The late Lord Bishop of Derry published a Book called The Catching of Leviathan in which he hath put together divers Sentences pickt out of my Leviathan which stand there plainly and firmly proved and sets them down without their Proofs and without the order of their dependance one upon another and calls them Atheism Blasphemy Impiety Subversion of Religion and by other names of that kind My request unto you is That when he cites my words for Erroneous you will be pleased to turn to the place it self and see whether they be well proved and how to be understood Which labour his Lordship might have saved you if he would have vouchsafed as well to have weighed my Arguments before you as to have shewed you my Conclusions His Book containeth two Chapters the one concerning Religion the other concerning Politicks Because he does not so much as offer any refutation of any thing in my Leviathan concluded I needed not to have answered either of them Yet to the first I here answer because the words Atheism Impiety and the like are words of the greatest defamation possible And this I had done sooner if I had sooner known that such a Book was extant He wrote it ten years since and yet I never heard of it till about three Months since so little talk there was of his Lordship's Writings If you want leasure or care of the questions between us I pray you condemn me not upon report To judge and not examine is not just Farewell T. Hobbes CHAP. I. That the Hobbian Principles are destructive to Christianity and all Religion J. D. THe Image of God is not altogether defaced by the fall of Man but that there will remain some practical notions of God and Goodness which when the mind is free from vagrant desires and violent passions do shine as clearly in the heart as other speculative notions do in the head Hence it is That there was never any Nation so barbarous or savage throughout the whole world which had not their God They who did never wear cloaths upon their backs who did never know Magistrate but their Father yet have their God and their Religious Rites and Devotions to him Hence it is That the greatest Atheists in any sudden danger do unwittingly cast their eyes up to Heaven as craving aid from thence and in a thunder creep into some hole to hide themselves And they who are conscious to themselves of any secret Crimes though they be secure enough from the justice of men do yet feel the blind blows of a Guilty Conscience and fear Divine Vengeance This is acknowledged by T. H. himself in his lucid Intervals That we may know what worship of God natural reason doth assign let us begin with his attributes where it is manifest in the first place That existency is to be attributed to him To which he addeth Infiniteness Incomprehensibility Vnity Vbiquity Thus for Attributes next for Actions Concerning external Actions wherewith God is to be worshipped the most general precept of reason is that they be signs of honour under which are contained Prayers Thanksgivings Oblations and Sacrifices T. H. Hitherto his Lordship discharges me of Atheisme What need he to say that All Nations how barbarous soever yet have their Gods and Religious Rites and Atheists are frighted with thunder and feel the blind blows of Conscience It might have been as apt a Preface to any other of his Discourses as this I expect therefore in the next place to be told that I deny again my afore recited Doctrine J. D. Yet to let us see how inconsistent and irreconcileable he is with himself elsewhere reckoning up all the Laws of Nature at large even twenty in number he hath not one word that concerneth Religion or that hath the least relation in the world to God As if a man were like the Colt of a wild Asse in the wilderness without any owner or obligation Thus in describing the Laws of Nature this
of the weaker Sex if I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There was exception also taken at a Covent of Friers Capucins in Somerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jesuits also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clerkenwel and in the mean time the principal Secretary Sir Francis Windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuits that had been taken and imprison'd for returning into England after banishment contrary to the Statute which had made it Capital Also the resort of English Catholicks to the Queens Chappel gave them colour to blame the Queen her self not only for that but also for all the favours that had been shewn to the Cotholicks in so much that some of them did not stick to say openly that the King was govern'd by her B. Strange injustice The Queen was a Catholick by profession and therefore could not but endeavour to do the Catholicks all the good she could she had not else been truly that which she professed to be but it seems they meant to force her to Hypocrisie being Hypocrites themselves Can any man think it a crime in a devout Lady of what Sect soever to seek the favour and benediction of that Church whereof she is a Member A. To give the Parliament another colour for their Accusation on foot of the King as to introducing of Popery there was a great Controversie between the Episcopal and Presbyterian Clergy about Free-will The Dispute began first in the Low Countries between Gomar and Armin in the time of King James who foreseeing it might trouble the Church of England did what he could to compose the difference and an Assembly of Divines was thereupon got together at Dort to which also King James sent a Divine or two but it came to nothing the Question was left undecided and became a Subject to be disputed of in the Universities here All the Presbyterians were of the same mind with Gomar but a very great many others not and those were called here Arminians who because the Doctrine of Free-will had been exploded as a Papistical Doctrine and because the Presbyterians were far the greater number and already in favour with the People were generally hated it was easie therefore for the Parliament to make that calumny pass currently with the People when the Arch-bishop of Canterbury Dr. Laud was for Arminius and had a little before by his Power Ecclesiastical forbidden all Ministers to preach to the People of Predestination and when all Ministers that were gratious with him and hoped for any Church-preferment fell to preaching and writing for Free-will to the uttermost of their power as a proof of their ability and merit Besides they gave out some of them that the Arch-bishop was in heart a Papist and in Case he could effect a Toleration here of the Roman Religion was to have a Cardinals Hat which was not only false but also without any ground at all for a suspition B. It is a strang thing that Scholars obscure men that could receive no clarity but from the flame of the State should be suffered to bring their unnecessary Disputes and together with them their quarrels out of the Universities into the Common-wealth and more strange that the State should engage in their Parties and not rather put them both to silence A State can constrain obedience but convince no error nor alter the mind of them that believe they have the better reason Suppression of Doctrines does but unite and exasperate that is increase both the malice and power of them that have already believed them But what are the Points they disagree in Is there any Controversie between Bishop and Presbyterian concerning the Divinity or Humanity of Christ Do either of them deny the Trinity or any Article of the Creed Does either Party preach openly or write directly against Justice Charity Sobriety or any other Duty necessary to Salvation except only the Duty to the King and not that neither but when they have a mind either to rule or destroy the King Lord have mercy upon us Can no body be saved that understands not their Disputations Or is there more requisite either of Faith or Honesty for the Salvation of one man than another What needs so much preaching of Faith to us that are no Heathens and that believe already all that Christ and his Apostles have told us is necessary to salvation and more too Why is there so little preaching of Justice I have indeed heard Righteousness often recommended to the People but I have seldom heard the word Justice in their Sermons nay though in the Latin and Greek Bible the word Justice occur exceeding often yet in the English though it be a word that every man understands the word Righteousness which few understand to signifie the same but take it rather for Rightness of Opinion than of Action or Intention is put in the place of it A. I confess I know very few Controversies amongst Christians of Points necessary to salvation They are the Questions of Authority and Power over the Church or of Profit or of Honour to Church men that for the most part raise all the Controversies For what man is he that will trouble himself and fall-out with his Neighbours for the saving of my Soul or the Soul of any other than himself When the Presbyterian Ministers and others did so furiously preach Sedition and animate Men to Rebellion in these late Wars who was there that had not a Benefice or having one feared not to lose it or some other part of his maintenance by the alteration of the Government that did voluntarily without any eye to reward preach so earnestly against Sedition as the other Party preached for it I confess that for ought I have observed in History and other Writings of the Heathens Greek and Latin that those Heathens were not at all behind us in Point of Vertue and Moral Duties notwithstanding that we have had much preaching and they none at all I confess also that considering what harm may proceed from a liberty that men have upon every Sunday and oftner to Harangue all the People of a Nation at one time whilst the State is ignorant of what they will say and that there is no such thing permitted in all the World out of Christendome nor therefore any Civil Wars about Religion I have thought much preaching an inconvenience nevertheless I cannot think that preaching to the People the Points of their Duty both to God and Man can be too frequent so it be done by grave discreet and ancient Men that are reverenced by the People and not by light quibling young men whom no Congregation is so simple as to look to be taught by
to offer them this Union by publick Declaration and to warn them to choose their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a very great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refus'd The Ministers had given way to the Levying of Money for the payment of the English Soldiers but to comply with the Declaration of the English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this contributing to the pay of their Conquerors was some mark of servitude whereas entring into the Union made them free and gave them equal priviledge with the English A. The Cause why they refus'd the Union rendred by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a Subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ. B. This is a downright Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves What have we then gotten by our deliverance from the Pope's Tyranny if these petty men succeed in the place of it that have nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publick except their silence For their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and an acquir'd readiness in the Scripture-Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the Manners of Religion they have neither knowledge nor practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you Nor do they distinguish between the Godly and the Ungodly but by conformity of Design in Men of Judgment or by repetition of their Sermons in the common sort of People B. But this sullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster enacted the Union of the two Nations and the abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained punishment for those that should transgress that Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St. Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the Hague to offer League to the United Provinces who had Audience March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors The Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to treat with them about it But the People were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traitors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the States had quieted them The Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them The Compliment which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the friendship we have offered Now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we had superated those matters between them and that King and then expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our error and that those Gentlemen were in the Right In a short time you shall see that business ended and then you will come and seek what we have freely offered when it shall perplex you that you have refused our proffer B. St. Johns was not sure that the Scottish business would end as it did For though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the event of their entring England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battle at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the Importing of Merchandise in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast. They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize And then the Dutch sent their Ambassadors hither to desire what they before refused but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the People here were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon Terms never likely to be granted First for the fishing on the English Coast that they should not have it without paying for it Secondly that the English should have free Trade from Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly they demanded amends for the old but never to be forgotten business of Amboyna So that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their profer'd friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadors affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to engross all Traffique and a false estimate of our and their own strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though those Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The persecution also of Royalists still continued amongst whom was beheaded one Mr. Love for holding correspondence with the King B. I had thought a Presbyterian Minister whilst he was such could not be a Royalist because they think their Assembly have the Supream Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traitors A. You may think so still for though I call'd Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one Act for which he was condemn'd It was he who during the Treaty at Vxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said it was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the King's Enemies Cromwel and his Fanaticks for their own not for the King's sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham's that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of New-Castle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two Negatives make an Affirmative so two Treasons make Loyalty This year also were reduced to the obedience of the Rump the Islands of Scilly and Man and the Barbadoes and St. Christophers One thing fell out that they liked not which was that Cromwel gave them warning to determine their sitting according to the Bill for Triennial Parliaments B. That I think indeed was harsh A. In the year 1652. May the 14 th began the Dutch War in this manner Three Dutch Men of War with divers Merchants from the Straights being discovered by one Captain Young who commanded some English Frigats the said Young sent to their
of the Jus Divinum of Bishops a thing which before the Reformation here was never allowed them by the Pope Two Jus Divinums cannot stand together in one Kingdom In the last place he mislikes that the Church should Excommunicate by Authority of the King that is to say by Authority of the Head of the Church But he tells not why He might as well mislike that the Magistrates of the Realm should execute their Offices by the Authority of the Head of the Realm His Lordship was in a great error if he thought such incroachments would add any thing to the Wealth Dignity Reverence or Continuance of his Order They are Pastors of Pastors but yet they are the Sheep of him that is on earth their soveraign Pastor and he again a Sheep of that supream Pastor which is in Heaven And if they did their pastoral Office both by Life and Doctrine as they ought to do there could never arise any dangerous Rebellion in the Land But if the people see once any ambition in their Teachers they will sooner learn that than any other Doctrine and from Ambition proceeds Rebellion J. D. It may be some of T. H. his Disciples desire to know what hopes of Heavenly joyes they have upon their Masters Principles They may hear them without any great contentment There is no mention in Scripture nor ground in reason of the Coelum Empyraeum that is the Heaven of the Blessed where the Saints shall live eternally with God And again I have not found any Text that can probably be drawn to prove any Ascention of the Saints into Heaven that is to say into any Coelum Empyraeum But he concludeth positively that Salvation shall be upon earth when God shall Raign at the coming of Christ in Jerusalem And again In short the Kingdom of God is a civil Kingdom c. called also the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Glory All the Hobbians can hope for is to be restored to the same condition which Adam was in before his fall So saith T.H. himself From whence may be inferred that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned As for the beatifical vision he defineth it to be a word unintelligible T. H. This Coelum Empyraeum for which he pretendeth so much zeal where is it in the Scripture where in the Book of Common Prayer where in the Canons where in the Homilies of the Church of England or in any part of our Religion What has a Christian to do with such Language Nor do I remember it in Aristotle Perhaps it may be in some Schoolman or Commentator on Aristotle and his Lordship makes it in English the Heaven of the Blessed as if Empyraeum signified That which belongs to the Blessed St. Austin says better that after the day of Judgment all that is not Heaven shall be Hell Then for Beatifical vision how can any man understand it that knows from the Scripture that no man ever saw or can see God Perhaps his Lordship thinks that the happiness of the Life to come is not real but a Vision As for that which I say Lev. pag. 345. I have answered to it already J. D. But considering his other Principles I do not marvel much at his extravagance in this point To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum or Heaven of the Blessed serve in his judgment who maketh the blessed Angels that are the Inhabitants of that happy Mansion to be either Idols of the brain that is in plain English nothing or thin subtil fluid bodies destroying the Angelical nature The universe being the aggregate of all bodies there is no real part thereof that is not also body And elsewhere Every part of the Vniverse is Body and that which is not Body is no part of the Vniverse And because the Vniverse is all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where How By this Doctrine he maketh not only the Angels but God himself to be nothing Neither doth he salve it at all by supposing erroneously Angels to be corporeal Spirits and by attributing the name of incorporeal Spirit to God as being a name of more honour in whom we consider not what Attribute best expresseth his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honour him Though we be not able to comprehend perfectly what God is yet we are able perfectly to comprehend what God is not that is he is not imperfect and therefore he is not finite and consequently he is not corporeal This were a trim way to honour God indeed to honour him with a lye If this that he say here be true That every part of the Vniverse is a Body and whatsoever is not a Body is nothing Then by this Doctrine if God be not a Body God is nothing not an incorporeal Spirit but one of the Idols of the Brain a meer nothing though they think they dance under a Net and have the blind of Gods incomprehensibility between them and discovery T. H. This of Incorporeal substance he urged before and there I answered it I wonder he so often rolls the same stone He is like Sysiphus in the Poets Hell that there rolls a heavy stone up a hill which no sooner he brings to day-light then it slips down again to the bottom and serves him so perpetually For so his Lordship rolls this and other questions with much adoe till they come to the light of Scripture and then they vanish and he vexing sweating and railing goes to 't again to as little purpose as before From that I say of the Universe he infers that I make God to be nothing But infers it absurdly He might indeed have inferr'd that I make him a Corporeal but yet a pure Spirit I mean by the Universe the Aggregate of all things that have being in themselves and so do all men else And because God has a being it follows that he is either the whole Universe or part of it Nor does his Lordship go about to disprove it but only seems to wonder at it J. D. To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum serve in his Judgment who denyeth the immortality of the Soul The Doctrine is now and hath been a long time far otherwise namely that every man hath eternity of life by nature in as much as his Soul is immortal Who supposeth that when a man dyeth there remaineth nothing of him but his Carkase who maketh the word Soul in holy Scripture to signifie always either the Life or the Living Creature And expoundeth the casting of Body and Soul into Hell-fire to be the casting of Body and Life into Hell-fire Who maketh this Orthodox truth that the Souls of men are Substances distinct from their Bodies to be an error contracted by the contagion of the Demonology of the Greeks and a window that gives entrance to the dark Doctrine of eternal torments Who expoundeth these words