and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to Vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which â—troversie understood not the Reasons of either Party and for those that by Ambition were once set upon the Enterprize of changing the Government they cared not much what was Reason and Justice in the Cause but what Strength they might procure by reducing the multitude with Remonstrances from the Parliament-House or by Sermons in the Churches and to their Petitions I would not have had any answer at all more than this That if they would disband their Army and put themselves upon his Mercy they should find Him more Gracious than they expected A. That had been a gallant answer indeed if it had proceeded from Him after some extraordinary great Victory in Battel or some extraordinary assurance of a Victory at last in the whole War B. Why what could have hapned to Him worse than at length He suffered notwithstanding His gentle answer and all His reasonable Declarations A. Nothing but who knew that B. Any Man might see that He was never like to be restor'd to His Right without Victory and such His Statutes being known to the People would have brought to His assistance many more hands than all the arguments of Law or force of Eloquence couched in Declarations and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of Quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by Profession or such Gentlemen as had the ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they us'd to praise by the name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy and those Men whose Pens the King most us'd in these Controversies of Law and Politics were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaim'd against Ship-money and other Extra-Parliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any Man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the Follies and other Faults of Men during this trouble but not by naming of persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the Business was brought to this height by levying of Soldiers and seizing on the Navy Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no Man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right Dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King Himself by a Bill that He passed at the same time when He passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore He had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolv'd them they would to their former Defamations of His Majesties actions have added this That He was a Breaker of His Word and not only in Contempt of Him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthning of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken and I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer for the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the Two Houses pleas'd But now that the War was resolv'd on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writings A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in Print to make the people know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by the Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of His own Commissions of Array and the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the people the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend Himself and His Right though there had been no other Title for it but His own preservation and that the name of Commission of Array had never been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a Man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts of Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great Reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudg'd which they call Precedents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good
his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturalized and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James and was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A I understand not the subtilty of the distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King Jame's coming in what greater priviledges had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch D. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France And therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Foreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scots Army was drawn up to the Fronteers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized on Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's Charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilful hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were Imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprison'd some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the people would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-money B. Ship-money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and Furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression And one of their Members that had been Taxed but 20 Shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a Year Land Taxed at 20 Shillings they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again When all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for
seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The two great Vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7. was without much noise of the people to fill his Coffers that of Henry the 8. was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks methinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchristian and unhumain design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may nâ—t dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Actual committing such Crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true Politicks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey all Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd such as are fit to make men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them and to make men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the King and that no man has Title to govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to Cod only and to no man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting for the coming again of blessed Saviour and in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in Charity with all men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from Scandal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey they Laws An Army you 'l say but what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universites themselves be in such manney as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them â—nd â—â—e Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party against him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of his business and refer it to some other day that you shall think fit B. Content that day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer My Money would have been so much the better provided for you B Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the people believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclined to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase their disaffection to his Majesty They accused him of a purpose to Introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom Than which nothing was more hateful to the people not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to heat it inveyed against in the Sermons and Discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual calumny to alienate the peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Con-secratary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbâ—rini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell but it is likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There wâ—s exception also taken at a Covent of Friers Capucines in Sommerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jescites also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clerkenwel and in the mean time the principal Secretary Sir Francis Windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuites that had been taken and Imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the Statute which had made it Capital also the great resort of English Catholicks to the Queens Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen her self not only for
Storm because it resisted this the Soldiers plundered and had good booty because the Scots for safety had sent thither their most precious Goods from Edinborrough and St. Johnston's he took likewise by surrender Aberdeen and the place where the Scotish Ministers first learned to play the Fools St. Andrews Also in the Highlands Colonel Alured took a knot of Lords and Gentlemen viz. four Earls and four Lords and above twenty Knights and Gentlemen whom he sent Prisoners into England so that there was nothing more to be feared from Scotland all the trouble of the Rump was to resolve what they should do with it at last they resolved to Unite and Incorporate it into a Common-wealth with England and Ireland and to that end sent thither St. Johns Vane and other Commissioners to offer them this Union by publick Declaration and to warn them to chuse their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refused the Ministers had given way to the Levying of Money for the payment of the English Soldiers but to comply with the Declaration of English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this contributing to the pay of their Conquerors was some mark of Servitude where entring into the Union made them free and gave them equal Priviledge with the English A. The cause why they refused the Union rendered by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ B. This is a down-right Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves what then have we gotten by our Deliverance from the Popes Tyranny if these pretty men succeed in the place of it that having nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publick except their silence for their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and acquir'd readiness in the Scripture Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the manners of Religion they have neither knowledge nor practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you nor do they distinguish between the Godly and Ungodly but by Conformity of Design in men of Judgment or by Repetition of their Sermons in the Common sort of people A. But this sullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster Enacted the Union of the two Nations and the Abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained Punishment for those that should transgress the Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the to Hague to offer League to the Vnited Provinces who had Audiance March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors the Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to treat with them about it but the people were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traytors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the â—tates had quieted them the Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them the Complement which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the Event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the Friendship we have offered now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of Opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our Error and that those Gentlemen were in the right In a short time you shall see that business ended when it shall perplex you that you have refus'd our proffer B. S. Johns was not sure that the Scotish business would end as it did for though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the Event of their entering of England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battel at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the importing of Merchandize in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize and then the Dutch sent their Ambassadors hither to desire what they before refus'd but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the people were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon terms never likely to be granted First For the Fishing on the English Coast that they should not have it without paying for it Secondly That the English should have free Trade form Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly They demanded amends for the old but never-to-be-forgotten business of Amboyna so that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their proffer'd Friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadours affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to ingross all Traffick and a false Estimate of our and their own strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though these Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The Persecution of Royalits also still continued among whom was beheaded one M. Love for holding Correspondence with the King B. I had thought Presbyterian Ministers whilest they were such could not be Royalists because they think their Assembly have the Supreme Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traytors A. You may think so still for though I called Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one act for which he was condemned It was he who during the treaty at Vxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said It was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the Kings Enemies Cromwel and his Phanaticks for their own not for the King's sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of New-castle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two
have heard publickly and so both parties returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour or Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the valour and conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed Success in War upon a Nation or Family B. After the pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Counsellors they could not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of Plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had been formerly accused of to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so uncharitably of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliamene to meet at Westminster the 13. of April 1640. B. Me-thinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour-Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such way of levying Money as in the last intermission of Paâ—liament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money Knighâ—hood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antâ—ent Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for relinquishing his right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he dissolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Foreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Foreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Foreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the common People the priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at