yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding
of their opinions 5. Put the case it were so yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write as before M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all 2 That they did but begin to scatter A. S. Iust but it was not so seasonable to write when any of them as when none of them begun to scatter or after as before they begun to scatter so to speake Morally that Apology was not seasonable since it was lesse seasonable then it would have been formerly M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant morning in which the mists ascend and anon descend and by and by ascend and turne into a Scottish mist that will wet an English man to the skin as our usuall Proverb is A. S. 1. This is but a Simile Quod nil probat 2. It is to be noted here how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter as conteyning some particular mystery and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation 3. Yet I may say that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England Scotland and Ireland then a Scottish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes and so will all true English and Christian hearts judge If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile more imaginary then reall it was your owne fault in seducing the people in a clanculary way and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventicles which good Ministers could not endure seeing that nothing could content you unlesse that all should stoop under you Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill but rather taken away the good opinion they had of you Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people but also Mr. Rutherford and Mr. Herle and sundry other Ministers A. S. his second reason is They who are called by the Parliament and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly howsoever that calling was to finde them good and not to make them so are supposed by them to be innocent and not culpable and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines with honour and good respect and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations and have no need to Apologize for themselves that being farre away more sufficient to justifie them before the world then any Apology whatsoever that they can write for themselves But the Apologists were so called c. Ergo. This is the sense and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation and not that that M. S. putteth upon it As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent or vindicated I Answer 1. That the Bishops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines as they were 2. If they had been admitted and continued as long as they without reproach how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour in foro externo before men since it is not morally to be presumed that such a grave Senate will call or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their Assembly So this being testimonium alienum non proprium and publicum non privatum without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe since they cannot speake as Iudges but as Parties who are evermore justly suspected A. S. 3. Reason He or they who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland with the Parliaments Commissioners to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word and the Example of the best Reformed Churches and have ended the businesse with them are not morally to be presumed to be culpable but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions in matter of Religion that can have been laid upon them at least in foro externo wherein only they can be justified by men in this life for it is not Morally to be presumed that the Parliament would have imployed any but Orthodox men and good men in a matter of so high a concernment and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves or if they doe so it was unseasonably done But the Apologizers are such men If it be said only one of them was such a man Answ It is all one 1. For in matter of Religion they lye all under one and the same notion 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did 4. Because being minded to make an Apology they should either not have made it at all being Members ' of the Assembly or have done it before their Admittance thereunto or after the Dissolving of the Assembly This had been a great deale more seasonable for it is not fit for a man to Apologize for himself in a cause wherein he sitteth as Iudge or when he sitteth as Iudge 5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History 6. Because they did it in a season when the Church State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches and in that very nick of time they under-valued them all as not having the power of Piety as they themselves censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline as not agreeable unto Gods Word and called them Calvinians whereof we have a sufficient proofe in a Letter sent to the Assembly from the Synod of Walachria wherein it complaineth much against this Booke because of the offence that the Reformed Churches received thereby 7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time most unseasonable when they were invited to come into England and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of England and for the lives and states of these very men who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline QUEST 5. Whether the Quixqu ' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses or in some other Didactick way rather then by an Apologeticall Narration IMaintaine the Affirmative part 1. Because that of all other is the most accurate and easiest way to manifest cleerly their Opinions by both to the learned and ignorant 2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall from that which is Circumstantiall as we may see in Comedies Tragedies all sort of Verses long Speeches Prayers Dialogues c. 3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inserted which touch not the Businesse at all 4.
only to pull in pieces the garment but even the Body of our Lord and his Spirituall Tabernacle and to take away from the Church the title of the Communion of Saints to divide that which God hath joyned together by his Holy Spirit the which being the spirit of peace inspires where ever it bloweth peace concord and brotherly and charitable communication and leades us to lend each other of us the hand to maintaine the whole together in a spirituall sympathy and a reciprocall ayding and assisting one of another 11. Besides that under the pretence of casting out Tyranny it is to introduce and bring in an Anarchie and confusion into the House of God and to open a wide gate to all sorts of disasters which are apparently unavoy dable if every particular Church shake off all manner of Yoake and refuse to give an account of its behaviour unto the assembly of his Brethren attributing unto itselfe an absolute power to doe whatsoever it selfe please without answering unto any therefore save to God only For if we open a gare to such a licentiousnesse the Socinians the Anabaptists and generally all sort of Hereticks Fanaticks and Enthusiastsshall quickly find the mean of seducing the people to possesse themselves of the Pulpits and so to make havock of the Churches of God 12. Moreover this pretended Independence ingageth them that maintaines it in a manifest contradiction for since they confesse that the Church of England is a Body they must necessarily avow that its parts ought to be united and tyed together which should be absolutely impossible should every Church be obliged to make a combination a part and to stand Independent upon another Church 13. From the very birth of the Christian Church unto this present there hath never been such a Government established as these men at this time propound on the contrary the mutual and reciprocall dependence of Churches and the uniting of them all together to a certaine Ecclesiasticall Order and Politie having been debated by a common deliberation hath been accepted voluntarily by all and hath ever been judged absolutely necessary 14. But to rest my selfe upon the Scripture alone we have it formally enjoyned without any exception to submit our selves one to another in the feare of God Eph. the 4. and to goe one before another Rom. 12. God would have every thing in his House decently and in order and as the spirit of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets so those that Prophesie ought to subject themselves one to the other remembring that God is not the God of confusion but of peace 1 Cor. 14. 15. The Apostle Saint Paul had beene called by our Lord Iesus Christ unto the Apostleship immediatly so as that he had neither received nor learnt any thing of any man and yeelded not in any thing to to those that would seeme something and acknowledged not that those that were in place had added any thing unto him notwithstanding he tooke not himselfe for an Independent but after that he had three yeares together Preached the Gospell and wrought divers miracles he disdaines not to goe to Ierusalem to visit Peter and to receive the right hand of fellowship And like wise he went up ten yeares after by Revelation to Ierusalem to conserte with the Apostles touching the Gospell to the end saith he least by any meanes I had not or should have run in vaine Gal. 2 In conclusion after that he had undergone a world of troubles and was become famous for many signes and miracles and had made the Gospel of Christ to flourish from Ierusalem unto Illyricum Rom. 1.17 he maketh no difficulty or scruple to submit himselfe unto the Counsell that the Church of Ierusalem gave him although he had never required any Counsell at their hands Acts 21. 16. Saint Peter that was the first in order in the Colledge of the Apostles beleeves not himselfe to be an Independent when he perceiveth that they were offended with his manage of the affaires he presents himselfe boldly to his Brethren as they were assembled in Ierusalem and gives them an account of what had passed by the meanes of his Ministery in the Calling of the Gentiles Act 11. And when he went not the right way to the truth of the Gospell he endured himself to be reprehended publickly by the Apostle Saint Paul Gal. 2. 17. The Church of Antioch was the first that was honoured with the Title of Christian and it had famous men immediatly inspired by the Holy Ghost Amongst others Saint Paul and Barnabas And yet notwithstanding when there hapned amongst them a Controversie of importance it presumed not to decide it of it selfe alone it presumed not to shew it selfe Independent but contrariwise it sent Paul and Barnabas with some others to Hierusalem where a Councell was called consisting of the Apostles and Elders And the Question that was first of all moved and debated at Antioch was examined and decided at Hierusalem to the glory of God and the edification of the Church Acts 15. 18. For very great important and just reasons it is decreed to abolish the Episcopacy but it were lesse mischiefe and inconvenience by farre to suffer it after that the Excesses of it were corrected and the Tyranny abolished then to bring in such an horrible confusion as is vailed under this name of Independency 19. God be thanked there is no need to come to that For if the Church of England will observe the order already happily established in ours and the Churches of Scotland if I mistake not it shall receive much profit and edification thereof and shall see the Gospell of Iesus Christ and of true Piety reigne and flourish more then ever in the midst of her people 20. In every particular Church there ought to be a Body made up of Pastors or of Pastors Ancients and Deacons that may meet in Consistory upon set and appointed daies to advise by common consent of the Affaires and the Government of the Church 21. If there be but one Pastor in these Consistories He presides there evermore But if there chance to be more they preside by turnes 22. In great Cities and Townes as in London where there are many Parishes every Parish may have its particular Consistory made up of Pastors Ancients and Deacons And yet notwithstanding to entertaine an holy Christain like and Brotherly union and concord such as ought to be among the Faithfull that are of the same Towne we are of Opinion that it would doe well that every weeke or Moneth at least a Generall Consistory should be held where the other Consistories should meete either in their Bodies or by their Deputies if their number be too great The Pastors of the several Parishes may preside by turnes or as it shall be agreed upon by a common choise And the businesses that shall be there propounded shall be there decided by plurality of voyces 23. Over and above this It will be needfull to establish the
Order of Colloques and of Provinciall Synods consisting of Pastors and Antients deputed by the particular Churches and of Nationall Synods consisting of Pastors and Ancients deputed by the Provinciall Synods And that there may be a proceding in these holy Assemblies from step to step according to the quality and merit of Businesses 24. The Colloques may be held once or twice a yeare or oftner if there be businesses that require it The Provinciall Synods ought to be held once at the least in a yeare As for the Nationall Synods we conceive it will be sufficient that yee hold them from two to two or from three yeares to three yeares 25. The Ecclesiastique Assembly now sitting may make Rules touching the matters which the Consistorieâ— and Colloques shall judge definitively of as also of those which shall afterwards be carried to the Provinciall Synods and from the Provinciall to the National As when there is a Question that touches either the Interdiction or Deposition of Pastors 26. In all these Colloques and Synods as well Provinciall as Nationall after the invocation of the Name of God the President the Assessor or Assessors and the Secretaries should be Elected by plurality of voyces and after the end and shutting up of the Assembly they are to submit themselves as well as all the rest of the Company to the Censure of their Brethren 27. Those that are consecrated to the Holy Ministery after they have given good and sufficient testimony of their lives and manners ought to be examined in the Provinciall Synods or at least in the Colloques who having judged them capable are to send them with letters of Recommendation to those Churches that demand them where after they have by some Exercises or Sermons given a proofe of their gifts and the dexterity they have individing a right the Word of God and received the approbation of the people they receive the Imposition of Hands by the Pastors that are deputed for that purpose 28. This is a very profitable order that all the Pastors of a Colloque Preach there in their turnes and that their Sermons be subject to the charitable Censure of their Brethren 29. For that after the breaking up of the Assemblies they that presided in them have no more power then they had before the Calling of them To the intent there may alwaies be some constant and set order betweene the Churches Before such time as the Assembly part it ought to enjoyne some one certaine Church to give and receive the Advise of all the rest of the Churches of the Colloque or of the Province and to give it power in case of necessity to convocate a Colloque or Provinciall Assembly Extraordinarily The Nationall Synod ought also to give it in charge to the Provinciall Synod commit the care to call the Nationall Synod that is next to be to the Provinciall Synod 30. We are of Opinion that by the meanes of such an order once setled you will be able to remedy all that is amisse For on the one side there will be no primacy nor dominion of some particular Churches over others and on the other side you shall by that meanes chase out of the House of God all disorder and confusion 31. If whilst we studied to be briefe we be found obscure any where in this Discourse we are all ready to explaine our meanings and to make it cleerely appeare how exceeding sensible we are of your Interests as also what great contentment we take in this Brotherly Communication of yours with us 32. We know not what may be the Reasons of these Gentlemen you call Independents and we doubt not but you have both in England and Scotland gallant witts that are able men enough to refute them neverthelesse if you please to acquaint us with them we to testifie in testimony of the uniformity of our Opinions shall receive the communications as a respect unto us and will endeavour the Answer thereunto with charity Now the God of Patience and Consolation grant you all to thinke one and the same thing according to Iesus Christ to the end that you may all with one tongue and mouth glorifie the God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Amen IT is true that considering that the pretended Independency that some would bring in in England is the way to open a wide gate to a most fearfull confusion and that by the means therof the Devil is so busie to pull down whatsoever yee build up in my nineteenth Article I said That for very great very important and most just reasons it was resolved upon to abolish and pull downe the Episcopacy but that there was lesse mischiefe and inconvenience to permit it after a due correction of the Excesses of it and an abolishment of its Tyranny then to bring into the Church of God such an horrible confusion as seem'd to be conched and vayled under the name of INDEPENDENCY I freely confesse unto you that I am yet of the very same Opinion notwithstanding your reasoning to the contrary I say then 1. that though such a Tolerance might give somewhat to many to apprehend and suspect yet the Evills that could possibly thence arive would be without comparison farre lesse then those that this unbridled Licensing of Independents might introduce among you Now of two Evills you would doe well to choose the lesser 2. I conceived not that there was so great danger in tolerating the Bishops provided that they were ranged within the order of other Pastours so as that they might not have dominion over them but only a certaine Presidency and Commission to watch over their Brethren and that this Commission were given them by the Colloque or the Synod of the Province and that those Assemblies had the power in themselves to deprive them of it and to substitute others in their Places 3. There are many things established in the Government of the Church which formally and expresly are not to be found in the Word of God 4. It hath pleased God to give this in charge to those that he hath called to the guidance and Government of his Flock His Will is that All things in his House be done in order and to edification 5. You your self use yee not to choose from amongst your Pastors some persons to preside in your Colloques and in your Synods Is this formally and expresly in the Word of God A Presidency for certain Moneths or for certain Yeares is it of it selfe more faulty or criminall then that of yours for certaine daies or certaine weekes 6. Consider if it please you that Parker and other learned men of your Nation that have written against the Hierarchy declare how that were the Bishops in England but as the Pastors in Germany and Suitzer-land which they usuall stiley Inspectors and Super-intendents they would never goe about to put them downe 7. Put the case this order were established amongst the Pastors it were not properly to establish an office
that is not in the Word of God for if it be well thought on these Inspectors have not any other Office in the Church of God then the other Pastors they are but onely delegated by their Brethren and Fellow Ministers and have from them and by their order a Commission for a time to watch over their Brethren as their Brethren may have a like Commission when their turne comes to watch over them and their behaviours Iust so as if in a well governed Family Brethren should make an agreement to give some one amongst them a Commission to watch for a certaine time over the deportment of the rest and this without any domination or command 8. To conclude sir you and we may easily agree upon this Article For you beleeve you are bound absolutely to abolish the Bishops of England and to shut quite out of doores the confusion of the Independents my thoughts are the same and I approve your designe wholly beseeching God with all my heart that he would blesse the worke of your hands and that you may see those happy daies wherein the Churches of England being purely Reformed may enjoy the same Discipline which is holily established in those of Scotland You are pleas'd in your letter to adde something concerning the Independents but you doe but only alleadge that which they beleeve and touch not upon any of the Reasons upon which they ground themselves wherefore I shall but only give a slight touch with my Pen upon every one of your sven Articles As to the first I thanke you most affectionately for the Copies of your Covenant the which I had seene before and had praised God who is the Author of this Christian peace and of this holy agreement of which I expect great fruit to the glory of God and the edification of his Church 2. The Independents doe but make sport when they say they acknowledge that Synods and Colloques are of Divine Right and deny them notwithstanding any manner of jurisdiction over particular Churches This is to pull downe with one hand what they build with the other For I cannot comprehend what use at all there can be of Colloques and Synods if they have no jurisdiction over particular Churches and lesse yet how one particular Church can refuse to submit it selfe to a generall Assembly the which it acknowledges to be of Divine Right 3. Now to that that they will not admit any one for a member of their Congregation that hath not some notable and conspicuous markes of Regeneration I conceive not that this opinion can have many Followers for that the members of the Church consist either of the Infants of Beleevers or of persons of perfect Age. As for the children of Beleevers there is no difficulty at all for the Apostle calls them Saints in regard of the Covenant of God that sanctifies and makes them holy And as for the others either they are borne amongst us or they come to our party by Conversion As for them that are converted it is true that they ought not hand overhead to be admitted into the body of the Church and that it does well to have some prooses of their knowledge in Religion as also some testimonies of their holy Conversation to the end that the Church be not defiled with their unsoundnesse But in this Examination we must proceed with charity and not be over severe for feare of casting backe and destroying of him who is yet weake and feeble in the Faith For as much as concernes those that are already in the communion of the Church the Rules of the Word of God are expresse concerning them They whose sins are not publique and notorious we are to reprove and censure them in private otherwise it were to spread a scandall and to offend against charity which covers a multitude of sins These that sin publickly and whose sins are notoriously knowne to all or the greater part of the people are to be reproved publickly and the businesse is to be carried so as that an amends be made by a publicke repentance for publick scandalls in case that it be requisite for the edification of the Church If the Offences be enormious or if the Offenders chance to be hardned and obstinate in their wickednesle we are to cut them off by Excommunication and so to take from among us the old leven that it soure not the whole lump and that the accursed thing cause not Israel to turne her backe But the Offender how great or enormious so ever he be if he repent after a convenient time of triall of the truth of his repentance we are bound to have compassion of him and to readmit him to the peace of the Church that he be not swallowed up with sorrow and cast head-long into Despaire It were good we should avoid as the too great severity and rigidity of the Ancients so likewise the over great levity and indulgence that is in vogue amongst us at this day 4. As to that that they will have every particular member present at the deliberation of all businesses whatsoever without having any right of suffrage or Authority I conceive this stands in need of some good distinction for certaine occasions there are upon which a man may grant them more then they demand as at such times when there is any debate touching businesses that are extraordinary and that concern the whole Church in generall for example then when as the question is touching the vocation or admission of a Pastor into a Church In such a case I am of opinion that all the Masters of Families that belong to that Church not onely ought to be present at the Consultation but also that they are to have their voyce and suffrage therein But that they should be at all kinds of debates there seemes to be no colour for it this neither can be nor indeed is it expedient It cannot I say be for the Church having continually businesses whereon to deliberate how is it possible the whole Church should so often be congregated Againe I say it is no waies expedient for there are certain businesses which ought not to be divulged wherein Christian Prudence and secrecie are very necessary If some particular man were to be censured for some particular offence that few know of and which if it were known would in all likelyhood expose him to a visible and apparent danger were it fitting now to debate and deliberate touching the censuring of this man before the whole Congregation Meet we at no time with businesses of such a nature as wherein the simple people are neither capable of understanding the Reasons nor yet able to hold their peace Must we needs abandon all Affaires of the Church to the discretion of every particular man If the people were to assist in all Consultations what a noise what contestations what divisions what scandalls should we have For however some men perchance would forbeare to deliver an opinion yet they would be
desire to confer with you if I may know who you are you shall herein do me a singular pleasure to teach me better which if ye do not or make me know who ye are I cannot think this counsell to be given in sinceritie Whereas I say ye sue for a Toleration and consequently for a Separation it is most true in the sense that I take a Separation viz. for a Separation from our Discipline and Sacramentall Communion as I have fully proved in this my Book whereunto all the Independent Churches in the world cannot answer for if ye be not separated from us but entertain union and communion with us what need ye more a Toleration rather then the rest of the members of our Church P. 18. Sect. 3. What I say of your undervaluing the Parliaments favour it is true and howbeit ye have not been yet accused before the Parliament or the Assembly yet doth not that justifie you but highly commend their great mercy singular prudence and charity in not taking notice of your indiscretions to say no more in calumniating nick-naming the Protestant Churches and publishing unto the world such unworthy Books against them yea against those whom ye acknowledge for your Benefactors Is not this I pray thee M.S. an undervaluing of so great favours is not this an extraordinary ingratitude to ward the Churches of the Netherlands who so lovingly received you and cherished you in the dayes of your affliction Well good men if yee esteem it not so they both may think their favours to have bin very ill bestowed upon so unthankfull men But this M.S. and C.C. tell us that they have done nothing but by Ordinance of Parliament What wretched men the very shame of this Kingdom I pray thee Reader pardon me if I give them not the titles that just anger would extort dare ye in face of Parliament and all the world so impudently father this indiscreet Book farced with little else save Calumnies upon the two most honourable Houses of Parliament Have ye I pray any order from either of the Houses to publish it unto the world Have ye any order from them to calumniate on this manner and to put nick-names upon the most orthodox Churches to call the Presbyterian an Episcopall Government Shall Protestants abroad read all this If they read it what I pray can they judge of this Parliament and their affection towards them unlesse they judge you to be lyers Well M.S. and C.C. yee speak both boldly and sawcily of the Parliament And as if all this yet were not enough thou M.S. to be sure to out-run C.C. tells us that the name of Stuart in foure men has been fatall to England and Scotland viz. in King James King Charles Doctor Stuart the Divine and in Adam Stuart here Pag. 22. Sect. 3. Hare-brained Fellow that thou art what has King James King Charles or Doctor Stuart to do with this Dispute canst thou not dispute calmly with me unless thou be snarling and biting like a mad Dog at every one that stands necre thee at Kings Parliament and all the best reformed Orthodox Churches of the Christian world I will not cast Horoscopes or consult Astrologues and Deviners as thou dost but if the Laws of the Kingdom be consulted God knoweth what a sad account thou mayest ere long bee called unto for such wilde expressions P. 19. Sect. 1. I am sory that yee vaunt your selfe that the Parliament resolved with a generall acclamation that your Apologie should be left unblamed and that ye threaten so many sorrows that should have befallen the Churches if it had been condemned If it be so it is a pittie but they should make great acclamations to so great and mighty Independent Ministers that thinke none of them so much as worthy to communicate with their Churches but will that they depend upon them But I beleeve that this is like to the rest of your vain braggings All that thou sayest P. 19. Sect. 3. they are but meere calumnies It is not I but the Independents themselves who sow the seed of Division betwixt themselves on the one part and the Parliament here the Scots and all Protestant Churches on the other only I declare what they are and I am glad if any of them have the grace to blush or be ashamed of it Nam pudor est virtutis color And so I answer thee in thine own words nec oleum nec operam perdo Those 6. things Proverbs 6.16 belong not to me but to thy selfe and as others say they are the very Essentiall notes of your Independent Churches Thou tellest also thereabout that thou divinest I wish rather thou wert a sound Divine then a Diviner To what thou sayest P. 20. Sect. 1. Because I have found thee and those who write against me such notorious lyers I must tell thee I cannot beleeve thee being my Adversary and I beleeve that no man will beleeve thee till that they have it from a better hand Ibid. Your Minister who preacheth us a tale beginning with In the name of God and ending with a Goose seemeth to have been some Independent Minister like your selfe happily your worthy selfe for that you take so great pleasure to fill up your Book with so worshipfull authorities Sect. 2. The Nick-names you take on you not to know they are 1. Calvinians Apolog. Nar. p. 20. 2. Bishops which ye your selves pin upon our Ministers p. 9. 3. An Idol that must be grinded to powder c. What ever ye say pag. 20. sect 4. I maintain that first in Conventickling your selves in Assemblies a part 2. In taking particular resolution a part 3. in taking of it against the resolution of the Assembly of Divines and 4. finally since in the thanks-giving to the Scots Commissioners such proceedings have been most cleerly howbeit indirectly condemned by the Synod it selfe no rationall man to speaking truly can call it other then an Assembly in the Assembly and against the Assembly And to say that particular Members of the Assembly may print what they please against the common opinion of the Assembly who ever sayes it he knoweth little or not at all how Ecclesiasticall Assemblies are to be governed What you say p. 21. sect 1. I see it is not reason but anger that maketh you to speak so And this may excuse you à tanto sed non a toto if now at length you be sory for it To your 2. sect where you give out your judgement in comparing another mans discretion and mine together he may be a man whose discretion I honour more then yours and mine own both but as for you I cannot but tell you Judicium praeceps insaeni judicis index Sect. 6. To shew his great skill in Phylosophy he quarrelleth with me for saying that the will is a blind Faculty and will needs perswade me most imperiously that the will of it selfe understandeth wherefore then I pray shall not the understanding likewise will Prudence choose and vertue
direct Charity beleeve and Faith love the Sense desire and the Appetite feele It is utterly false that hereupon it followeth that the will is an unreasonable Faculty for howbeit it be not a reasonable directive yet it is a reasonable imperative Faculty And this I pray you most considerate Philosopher as you call your selfe to learn of me for however you inconsiderately judge that we take our Principles up upon trust yet could I have helped you with a dozen of Arguments more probable then that ridiculous one that ye have brought us P. 21. Sect. 8 He saith that I contradict my selfe in these following Propopositions viz. 1. The five Ministers Discourse is most learned 2. The five Ministers Discourse commeth very short weak and slender and no wayes satisfactory 3. The five Ministers discourse is errour 4. The five Ministers are most learned 5. The five Ministers are less learned then I am A Contradiction is between two propositions consisting of the same termes the one affirmative the other negative both singular or the one universall and the other particular If any such Propositions be found in my Book hee saith true and I will confesse it if not he is bound to acknowledge himselfe a lyer Now in all these five Propositions see whether there be any such thing yea or not As for the first which he imagineth to be contradictory to the next two 1. They are all affirmative 2. Never an one of them has the same Attribute 3. In the second he omitteth some words of mine viz. these to their Arguments 4. The third Proposition is not mine In the 4. and 5. Propositions which he calleth contradictory 1. They are both affirmative 2. The fifth is not mine but falsly attributed by him unto me So see courteous Reader whether he has more reason to say of me The man maketh nothing of Contradictions or I to say of him This man with the power of piety maketh nothing of falsifications and lying What he saith more to my Epistle it meriteth not an answer since it conteineth nothing else save only some stories of his Independent Gossips more fit a great deale to be told to old wives mislead by prejudices then to be read by men of judgement As concerning the 3. sect pag. 22. I repent not my selfe at all but thank my God that I have written against your Sect And I promise you God willing to continue all my life long so doing if he call me not to some other employment wherein I may glorifie him more Only here I pray thee Reader to observe this mans vanity and madnesse who thinking it but a small thing to offend me all along hitherto with his injurious Pen has run out of the links to pursue His Majestie because of the name which he hateth in my person and therefore that all the world may take notice of him how couragious he is he concludeth All that I have to say to A.S. here is only to sigh over this name S. in four men as fatall to this poore England and Scotland c. Well I will not say the rest for feare that if ever thou be exalted thou say not that I have been the cause in accusing thee Only I know not what Schooles of Magick thou hast frequented or curious Arts thou hast learned or what occult vertue thou conceivest to be in Names none but Magicians and they who are given to curious but unlawfull Sciences are of thy opinion My name I thank God is no shame to me I pray God thou be not a shame to thy Name and thy Profession both And so much for the justification of my Epistle consisting of halfe a sheet of paper in a very faire letter in the pretended refutation whereof what with language jeers injuries c. this man hath employed no lesse then 22. pages in quarto of a small Print if the cyphers mark well All which I have fully refuted with sundry Reasons howsoever I found none at all or very few in his writing in lesse then three leaves in 4o. as I beleeve Now let us see what he will say to my Observations Consideration 1. A.S. VVHether in any Ecclesiasticall or Politicall Assembly of the Christian world wherein things are carried by Plurality of voyces it be ordinary for any inconsiderable number of men to joyne in a particular combination among themselves and therin to take particular Resolutions and to publish them unto the world and so to anticipate upon the Resolutions of the whole Assembly Answ 1. M.S. We have heard of some Parliaments in Europe that the House of Peers is so constitute that if a Vote pass where som's Consciences amongst them cannot yeeld to they may modestly enter in the House their dissent from it Rep. A.S. But your five Ministers have not done so there was no Vote at all passed upon all the Articles that are debated in their Apologeticall Narration 2. And therefore neither entred they nor could they enter their Vote of dissent 3. If the House of Peers be so constitute it followeth not that the Assembly of Divines should be so constitute 4. The Apologists have not contented themselves with these Priviledges of the Peers or that are granted to any Parliament or Synod men viz. to enter modestly their dissent from it but they have gone further for before that ever things were Voted they published them to all the world 5. They did it not modestly but with great insolence insulting over all Protestant Churches as if they alone had the power of piety or as if they in their Churches had it in a higher degree then all other Christian Churches 6. When the Peers do so they doe it not as your Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers viz. by Conventicling themselves in secret and a part not imparting their designe to their Brethren and subscribing an Apologie together 7. If it was not to crosse the proceeding and Disputes of the Assembly wherefore I pray could it be 8. Neither could it be to tell the Kingdome de facto what they held and practised 1. For if it be so wherefore are they Petitioners in the last page of their Apology for a latitude and Toleration in Religion 2. Wherfore travaile they in all their Book to refute the Presbyterian Government received in the best Reformed Churches 3. If you Sir can procure of your five Ministers to sweare that what you say of them here is true you may be better beleeved then yet you are 4. And I pray you tell us if they have told you that they had no other draught in all their Apologie then what you declare here 5. If they affirme it in Conscience certainly their mind has not been like to their Book 6. If it be so what is the reason that they declared not themselves before that they were Members of the Assembly or before such time as these matters were debated there 7. I ask you whether in that Book they declare not what was their opinion and what they
private writings are more effectuall and sufficient to perswade the world of their innocent then the Declaration of the Parliament A.S. For me I believe and take it for certain that the publike Declaration of Parliament is more authentique then the particular writings of them that are accused yea the very Election and Admission to the Synod by the Parliament suffice to justifie the Members from any publike accusation whatsoever in matter of Doctrine and Discipline For sure so Wise and Religious a Parliament would never admit into a Synod called together for the Reformation of Religion any Heretique or Schismatique stained and deformed with Errour Notwithstanding M.S. brings Reasons for himselfe 1. For that the Parliament being indulgent chose Episcopall men To which I answer That the Bishops at that time were Morally Orthodox being not then accused or condemned by any publike Authority As to that he addes that there are some Members of the Synod ejected out of the Assembly and cast into prison I answer That this was for Delinquencies of theirs that happened after their Election But for that the Independents were not so handled they were held as Innocent men 2. M.S. sayes that two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the Faults in every Towne c. A.S. To this I answer that no more is there any necessity that they should know every particular man in a County But it suffices that they know two Ministers that are Religious and of good report and it should be very strange if they should not know such a number But besides this I shall answer more fully in a particular Question 5. Consideration whether this your Apol. Narration wherein ye blame all Protestant Churches as not having the power of godlinesse and the Profession thereof with difference from all carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth amongst them as amongst you be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of their Brotherly Assistance and particularly of that of the Scots against whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended who at this very time so unseasonable according to their duty hazard their lives and estates for Gods Church all this Kingdome and you also Here note that M.S. answereth not to this principall Question or interrogative Preposition viz. if this Apologeticall Narration be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of the Brotherly assistance of Protestant Churches but only biteth at the Syncategorema or adjacent terme thereof viz. not having the power of godlinesse so that his silence seemeth cleerly to grant the principall Question which we willingly accept of As for the Syncategorema it cannot receive the sense that hee puts upon it for the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers speak here of themselves as contra-distinguished or opposed to all other Reformed Churches both abroad and within this Island as appeareth by the beginning of the 2. Sect. p. 4. where they say Wee were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And afterwards we could not but suppose that they could not see into all things about Worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine And afterward And we had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not been advanced and held forth among them as in this our own Island as themselves have generally acknowledged Here they oppose themselves and those of their own profession to all other Reformed Churches whatsoever yea to the first Reformers here in this Island if England whereof they speak be in this Island It is likewise false The words of the Apologie are 1. That they and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godlinesse c. They are verbatim as I have set them down Neither cited I those words all and among you as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers words since I put them in a different Character from theirs and yet the sense is most true as I have proved Neither said I that they say that other Churches had no power of godliness Neither by this phrase This our Island understand you or can they understand any Reformed Churches different in Government from themselves as this M.S. will perswade us unlesse he hold our Reformers of England to be out of this Island since they oppose themselves to all other Reformers and Reformed Churches both within and without this Island So if this speech be intended against all other Reformed Churches except their own it must be intended against that of Scotland unless ye deny good Sir that of Scotland to be a Reformed Church neither serveth it you a pin that they call them deare Brethren for that must either be by dissimulation or they conceive that men may be their deare Brethren without the force of Piety or they contradict themselves choose ye what please you Sir So this is not my ill eye as you say but your ill eye brought home to your own doore fie upon thee give glory to God and render thy selfe to truth for feare thou render thy selfe to worse It is likewise false that I said it is intended against Scotland only I said it is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots which appeareth cleerly because sundry Independent Ministers and others travell to prove it by the confession of some Scots Ministers So judge I pray Christian Reader whether this man with this his power of piety or I whom he maketh so impious a Machivilian speak more like his Machiavilian I am assured what ever be thy power of Piety thou hast no practise of Piety here No truer is it that their Proposition is but Indefinite in a Contingent matter and therefore it may be construed of some Particulars only for as the rest of the Independents save ordinarily their absurd speeches with meere Possibilities so doth M.S. which here cannot hold for the Apologists say that they were not engaged by Education or any other wayes to any other of the Reformed Churches i.e. Nullo modo and Nulli Ecclesiae Reformatae so it is altogether Universall both in regard of the Subject or Matter and of the Manner and of such Churches they speake in all that Discourse in that Paragraph and it may appeare by this their proofe viz. as they themselves generally acknowledge 6. Consid Whether as it is observed by sundry men of learning and as ye have noted your selves ye should not have done better to have set down your Opinions by way of Theses and so manifested unto us wherein ye agree or disagree with us or from us the Brownists Anabaptists and those whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you in Old and New England and the Netherlands then