AN ANSVVER TO THE TEN COVNTER DEMANDS PROPOVNDED BY T. DRAKES Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX By Wil. Euring PROV 9.12 If thou be wise thou shalt be wise for thy selfe and if thou be a scorner thou alone shalt suffer Printed in the yeare 1619. To the Reader IT is the manner of some quarrelsome persons that being beaten by one aduersarie too strong for them they are not quiet in their mindes till they haue got another with whom they hope to deale well enough and to beate the former upon his back wrecking upon him all that anger which they haue harboured in their heart against the other but could not utter as they desired So it seemes to be with this man who having had of late as it is reported much combating with the Morris-dauncing-Papists and Athiests in his parish whereof lately hee was Minister And finding them too hard for him and that insteed of being sheep to follow him they came with open mouth like wolues both against the sheep and Shepheard he hath thought it best seeing these wolues thus comming to saue himselfe by flying to an other place leaving the pore sheepe in the same fould with the wolues to shift for themselues as they could But not resting so hee hath bethought him of an other sort of adversaries with whom he hopes more easily to deale and these are the poore Separatists against whom he hath also those Morris-dauncers and many greater then they to take his part Them he encountreth stoutly with Ten Counter-Demands as he cals them with which as with so many yron hornes he hopes so to shake the silly Separatists as not to leaue them a whole bone in their skin But why doth he call them Counter-Demands Not because he hath answered but onely seen as I heare 7 Demands of theirs some good space since propounded by thē These he should rather haue answered in my judgment if he could for the defence of his Church Communion Government Ministerie and Worshippe But it seemes he had rather aske then answer questions as what bungler cannot better strike then fence and so his meaning is to set these his Ten Counter-demands against their Seaven Demands that so they might knock heads together to see whose is hardest Since then it must be so I will first set downe those Seaven and after answer his Ten simply without all doubt yet as well as I can but plainly and distinctly as he desireth Intreating thee good Reader to beare with my vnschollership for I haue not been brought up among the Muses but Mariners and am unwillingly though particularly drawn hereunto by his importunity Quest 1 Whether the Lord Iesus Christ haue in his last will Testament given unto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their callings workes and maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appointed in the Testament of Christ or whether the present ecclesiasticall offices of Arch-Bishops Lord-Bishops Suffragans Deanes Priests Vicars Arch-Deacons Prebendaries Canons Gospellers Petty-Canons Epistlers Virgerers Queristers Organ-Players Parsons Curates Chancelors Commissaries Proctors Registers Appariters or Sumners Churchwardens Doctors of Divinity Questmen or Side-men Deacons or halfe Priests Chaplins or house-Priests Clarkes Sextons and the rest now had and retained in the Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies of the Land be those Offices appointed in Christs last will and testament or no 3 Whether the calling and entrance into the ecclesiasticall offices last before named with their administrations and maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration and maintenance which Christ hath appoynted for the offices of his Church or no 4 Whether every true Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and false worship and waies thereof by the word of God and ioyned together in the fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ 5 Whether the sacraments being seales of the righteousnes which is by faith may be administred vnto any other but to the faithfull and their seed or in any other ministery or manner then is prescribed and appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high preist of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the parish assemblies of England at this day or no 6 Whether the booke of Common prayer with the feasts fasts stinted prayers holly dayes and leiturgy prescribed therein vsed in the assemblies bee the true worship of God commanded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7 Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in religion onely to receiue and submit vnto that Ministry worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath given vnto and appoynted in his Church or whether any may receiue and ioyne vnto another devised by man for the worship and service of God and consequently whether they that ioyne to the present Ecclesiasticall ministry worship and order of the Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioyne to the former or dayned by Christ and not to the latter devised by man for the worship and service of God AN ANSWERE TO TEN Counter-Demands Propounded by T. DRAKES Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX REverend sir you haue given vs heer a Counter blow and as it is reported you yet thinke to giue vs if not a greater yet another Blow but you earnestly desired to haue these your Ten Counterblowes directly and distinctly ansvvered vvhich I vvill labour to do God assisting mee Demand 1. Your first Demande is Whether our seperation from your Church or Church-assembles of England can in any probability be pleasing vnto God seeing it hath had say you such vnhappy beginnings and so many dismall and fatall events the first founder of it comming to Iudas his shamefull and fearfull end hanging him selfe and the second you say totally recanting and comming againe to you as divers of our proselites doe daily c. Answere This is the sume or ground of your first Demande other vvords there are here and there dropt from your pen vvhich giue no strength at all to your demand therefore I passe them by and ansvver yea Though this be true that you haue saide yet may our separation from your Church or parish-assēblies of England be pleasing vnto God and for proof hereof consider vvhat follovveth This your demand is like as if a Cananite or Philistim should thus haue demaunded of the Israelites Whether is it like that the wars you hould against vs can in any probability be pleasing unto God seeing that they haue had such vnhappy successe vvith so many dismal fatall events
mighty reason a minore ad majus which words indeed I vnderstand not is this If say you our Lord Iesus his disciples and people did not separate from thire Sinagogues and assemblies that vvere in faith and maners more defectiue then ours are much lesse ought they to separate from our assembles vvherein all the grounds of Christian religion are soundly held and professed you might haue added and but fevv practise neither of preists nor people in vvhom couetousnes vvrath enuie and contention doe daily abound many thousands neither knowing nor regarding to knovv vvhat true faith meaneth and for their manners vvhich you vvould seeme so much to commend let the manners even of that Parish assembly vvherein your selfe did of late exercise your spirituall authority in vain as also the mānerly conditions and conversation of almost all in generall testifie hovv true this your bold affirmation of their manners is and vvithall let the Readers minde that although you boast of all the grounds of christian religion yet it is but held and professed not practised among you so that it may seeme you beleeue also that to hould and professe vvithout obedience is sufficient for the salvation of the professors but to the intent that this may be better discerned I doe intreat and desire all that are christianly minded to reade and consider of these fevv places of scripture Iam. 1.21.22.25.26 Tit. 1.16.2 Thes 1.7.8.9 Eze. 22.26 I vvill only poynt the places let the godly reade and iudge 4 Demand Novv to your fourth demand vvhich is Whether those great multituds of people spoken of Math. 14.13.14.15 c. Ioh. 6.5.10.11 can with any reason be denyed to be members of the visible church though yet wanting the pretended constitution of the Separatists and albeit many of them you say were drawne not by doctrine but by miracles report and with their desire to be fed c. 4 Answ To this your demand I ansvver directly yea they may vvith good reason grounded on the word of God speaking as you doe of the multitude be denyed to be members of any visible Church and this doth plainely apeare in the same 2 chapters namely Mat. 14. Ioh. 6. which may also be compared with other scriptures to proue the same There were none of them members of the visible Church of Christ but those that did visibly appeare to be Christs Disciples but the multitude that followed him for their bellies sake were not his Disciples as the very words of the text doe proue where a diffecence is put betweene the one and the other First looke Mat. 14.19 where it is said Hee caused the multitude to sit downe and when he had blessed broke he gaue it to the disciples the disciples to the multitude And whē they had all eaten were sufficed he caused his disciples to enter into a ship while he sent the multitude away Mat. 14.22.23 Mar. 4.4 If you say he taught them altogether it is true yet was it in parables and afterward he expounded all things to his disciples aparte Mar. 4.10.11.34.35.36 Mat. 13.10.11.13.14.15.36 And thus it doth plainly appear that the multitude were not his disciples and consequently not members of any visible Church of Christ for then he would not haue sent them away empty in their soules and full in their bodyes but he would haue expounded all things to them altogether for their edification and further comfort But the text doth plainly shevv the disciples to be vvithin and the multitude to be without Mar. 4.10.11.12 And whereas you further demand Whether those 3. thousand in the second of the acts that were converted at Peters Sermō were not true mēbers of a true visible Church before they had officers chosen among them c. I Ansvver yea they were this you say cannot bee refuted and it is true but what haue you gained by this what doth this helpe the multitude spoken of before If I should charge you here with deceitfull dealing by shuffling this place of the Acts with the other tvvo places of scripture therby to make your demand seem something and of some weight blinding therewith the eies of your readers I doubt you could hardly cleere your selfe with a good conscience but howsoever you would seeme to shuffle them together to serue your turne yet they are plainly distinguished thus as followeth This place of the Acts speaketh of three thousand godly penitent sinners pricked in their hearts for their sins and converted at that sermon the multitude spoken of in the other two scriptures were not such by your owne grant Againe these in the second of the Acts received the apostles doctrine gladly and forsaking that froward generation with whom they lived they ioyned them selues vnto the Church as appearath in the 37.40 and 41. verses Now who can deny these 3. thousand though still the multitude be denied to be members of the true visible Church when the text saith they were added to the Church although it should be granted that as yet they had no other officers chosen but the Apostles But then say you And why not our Church-assemblies in England much more grounded in the faith a true visible Church c. I ansvver no it vvill not follovv because howsoever some fevv of yovv may be more grounded in knovvledge of the truth then they vvere and thereby your sins and transgressions much more greater against God by knovving more and obaying lesse your parrish assemblies vvere not at the first gathred from others by the preaching of the vvord their hearts being touched vvith godly sorrovv for their sins neither do they yet appeare to be pricked in their hearts for their sins as those three thousand vvere Your parish assemblies do not gladly receiue the Apostles doctrine and continue therein vvith gladnes of heart to be directed and ordered thereby as they did but every man among you vvill doe vvhat his owne heart listeth euen according to the frowardnes and anger of his euill heart so that vvere it not for the lavves of the nation and the power of the magistrates restrayning them more then the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles the manifold mischiefs that would be done by one against another among you through the enuie and malice of your euill and wicked hearts is too manifest to be denyed and too shamefull to be defended I do hartely desire you Sir to examine your own heart well in this point minde well the exhortations that the Apostle giveth in Heb. 3.12 2. Cor. 13.5.6.7.8.9.11 1. Cor. 11.28.29.30.31 you see and know that your Parish-assemblies are so far from continuing in the Apostles doctrine that they neither konw therfore not receiue nor yet regard to know what the wholsome doctrine of the Apostles meaneth I speake not this of all in particular the Lord knoweth my heart is far from so thinking I know many that haue tender consciences and loving affections and do well regard the best rhings but I speake generally of the
compared with that which is written for answer to the last 4 lines of your second Demand and I think it will giue sufficient satisfaction and for the better cleering of all other meanings I will demand of you these two questions desiring your answer if not printed yet under your hand writing Quest 1. Whether Christ be not the only wise God and everlasting King and perfect law giver to his Church and whether all Kings Potentats Princes and people be not bound to submit themselues as true and faithfull subiects unto him and to his lawes given unto his Church or whether any or all of them may by their royall power learning or authority alter change leaue out or ad unto any of those lawes which Christ hath already set forth in his last will and testament Quest 2 Whether every particular man and consequently all men be not bound by the word of God to separate themselues from every knowne sinne and error whether in faith or conversation of life that the Lord shall giue him sight of and labor diligently to reforme themselues and their families according to the law and will of God revealed in his word without the consent of the Christian Prince and Magistrates under whom hee liveth or whether they bee bound to go on and continue still in their sinne or error and not to separate from the same untill they haue first sued for and obtained the Princes and Magistrats leaue and licence and consent of the state that is indeed and breifly whether God must be God or no eexcept men will giue him leaue 10 Demand your tenth and last Demand is Whether it were not the Separatists best course to returne againe to Gods true Church and people from whom you say upon some conceited hard dealing they haue made an unlawfull rent and there to confer with the best learned and if still their consciences be somewhat tender to supplicate for some favour and liberty or if say you they will not take this course whether it weare not good for them for the avoiding of scandill and in expectance of some prosperous successe by the permission of our noble King and bonor able Counsell to remoue to Virginea and make a Plantation there in hope to convert infidels to christianity Although I can partly gesse in what humor you propounded this your Demand yet I will not answer you according to that your humor but I will answer you even as I desire to follow the truth in loue and peace with you and with all men I answer Those that haue separated and made an unlawful rent from Gods true Church and people as you say it is the best course for them to returne againe and with godly sorrow to manifest their true and unfained repentance for the unlawfull rent they haue made And that this may be the sooner effected and brought to passe seeing that you still take it for granted that your Nationall Church and Parish-Assemblies of England is the true visible Church of Christ I do once againe intreat you to shew vs the true forme and fashion of your Church And lay you apart all wrath and Envious Anger that so we may together in peace and love you with us and we with you take a view and consider of your Church and cōpare the form fashion therof with the forme and fassion of the true visible Church of Christ as it is described vnto us in the scripture If you can proue your Church or parish assemblies to be like vnto that true visible Church of Christ both for true matter whereof it is built viz. Saints And also for the maner of the building beeing coupled and combined according to the heavenly pattern Both you and all men shall see that I am willing not onely to returne againe but also to labour with godly diligence to live in a holy communion and fellowshipe with you laboring to obey the lawes and ordinances of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ supporting and strengthning one another in all loue And if this good and godly course maye be accomplished not onely I my selfe but all of vs that now are separated from you would much more willingly and gladly returne againe and labor to plant our selues againe in the meanest parte of England to inioy peace with holinesse and to follow the truth in loue among our kindred and friends in our owne natiue cuntry then either to continue where now many of vs as yet liue or to plant our selues in Virginia or in any other country in the world vppon any conditions or hope of any thing in this lyfe whatsoeuer Yet euen for Virginia thus much When some of ours desired to haue plāted our selues there with his majesties leaue upon these three grounds first that they might be means of replanting the gospel amongst the heathens Secondly that they might liue vnder the Kings government Thirdly that they might make way for and unite with others what in them lieth whose consciences are greived with the state of the Church in England the Byshops did by all means oppose them and their friends therein and though they aboue other men pretend the planting of the Gospell amongst heathens as you here do yet haue they been rather content that the most vile miscreants in the kingdom and such as were rather like to turne christians to heathens then to make of heathens Christians then they And thus much for answer to your ten Counter Demaunds nothing doubting but we shall be able to beare the waight of your next blow with patience when it comes forth If in the meane tyme I haue not answered you to any or all these your demands as you desire yet I haue endevoured my selfe to do it according to truth in the best of my vnderstanding as the word of God hath directed me I doe intreat you sir not to suffer the vnaduised anger of your owne evill and froward hart cause you to take things in the worst part although I cōfesse that at the first sight or view hereof this my harsh rude and vnlearned writing may seeme vnpleasant and offensiue yet vppon better and more serious considerations you shall haue lesse cause to find fault Therfore sir When you finde heerein any thing that may moue you to take offence I pray you passe by it in loue shew you forth that godly patience which you somtime teach to others Remember sir He that is slow to wrath is of great wisedome but he that is of a hastie minde exalteth folly Pro. 14.29 And againe he that is slowe vnto anger is better then the mightie man and he that ruleth his owne mynde is better then he that winneth a Citty Pro 16 32. Consider also sir It is you that haue drawne me to write and therefore you haue the lesse cause to be angry with me except your hart be enuious full of deceit malice couetousnes pride and vainglory Rom. 1.29.30.31 against which things cōsidering how euill they be in any it may be hoped that you haue learned to striue Philip. 2.3 and doe labour to be purged from an evill conscience Heb. 10.21.22.23.24 I pray you sir beare with mee for writing thus vulearnedly I haue endevoured my selfe in the best manner that I can to speake according to the word as taught of the holy Ghost from which where I haue swarved or abused the same I humbly craue of you of euery godly wise Reader Christian correction rather then pardon for it ought to goe before and shall be more profitable vnto me yea greater every way shall the benefit therof be both for me and for others also for I being better instructed shall through Gods mercy both repent and learne to amend my faults and others shall reape the fruits of Gods graces which more plentifully by your godly and diligent care louingly to correct what you see amisse vnto the which dutie of loue if I may any way stir you and others vp I shall not thinke my labour wholy lost but shall be very glad to see you and others so well affected Fare yee well Let all Glory and honor praise and thankes be giuen to God alone FINIS
that those to vvhom you sued for redresse could not or vvould not giue any more vertue power or efficacy to your Ministry and office you tooke the best course as you thought even to leaue them in their Idolatry and prophanes and come avvay from them for the vvhich I vvould haue you minde vvell and consider vvhat the Lord saith Zacha. â—â— 17 surely sir seeing that you thus deeme of things by the effects you can not but thinke very hardly of your selfe considering the small effect your ministry hath vvrought especially amongst your Morris-dauncers And yet for further ansvver to your demand consider sir vve are a poore vveak dispised people here in England hated and persecuted of all or the most part in the lande and therefore if vve haue any meetings or comming together on the Lords day they must be very private for feare of such persecuting adversaries as cannot indure and are ignorant of the truth of Gods ordinances to be taught and practised so that Papists Atheists and such like profane come not at our exercises and hovv is it possible vve should convert any that come not to heare vs If vve should demand of you how many Turks and Saracens haue been converted in your Parish assemblies vvhat ansvver vvould you giue vs that vvill not ansvver your selfe 2 To let passe the Churches in this vvay beyond the seas vvhich haue their more free meetings and able ministeries and vvhere this blessing of God in converting men is more seen then I think in any of the Parishes that ever you your selfe vvere minister of though you haue beene in more then a good many or then a good Pastour should or vvould be I may bouloly say that we hovv fevv or meane soever vvee are do convert more to our Churches thou you do to yours All these Atheists Heretickes and prophaine persons vvere as vvell of your Church before their conversion as after and for the Papists eyther they come to hear you and then they are of your Church also namely Church-Papists or not and then hovv doe you convert them by your ministry Besides it is evident that the number of Papists do dayly increase in the land infinitely such is your plentifull conversion of Papists But indeede Sir your follovving vvords vvherein you please to terme vs refined reformers saying that we seduce only the sound and pervert and estrange from you those that are otherwise well affected of som vnderstaÌ„ding c. are worth the considering and I intreat the Godly readers to take knovvledg of this that follovveth First I professe vnfainedly vvith an vpright heart as in Gods presence vvho knovveth the secrets of all hearts that neither I my selfe nor any other to my knowledg that professeth the same course of true religion vvith me did ever intend or once conceiue so much as in thought any one poynt or parte of sedition or evill conspiracie against any mans person much lesse against the kings maiesty his royall state government but vve do acknowledge his maiesty to be supreme governour in all his dominions in all causes and over all persons of vvhat estate or degree so ever they be and that no person may declyne or appeall from his authotity or iudgment in any cause vvhatsoever but that in all things obedience is due vnto him eyther Actiue if the thing commanded be not against Gods vvord or Passiue if it be except pardon can be obtained and hereunto vvee doe diligently exhorte and provoke all men at all times c. This being in the first place considered it is true that you say our cause hath vvrought most vppon such as haue some vnderstanding and knovvledg and are of tender consciences plyable to the truth others of more corrupt consciences haue set against us and against our cause and blasphemed it c. The consideration of this will in any wise mans iudgment rather lead vnto our cause then from it when the better sort by your owne confession doe come to vs the worser and baser sorte remayne still with you And this much for answer to your second demand novv to your third This your third demand is of another kinde differing from the former for here you seeme to leaue your nationall Church and Parishassembles of England and make your demand only for your reformed assemblies wherein you say the Gospell is sincerely preached and professed and the sacraments duly administred c. But of this particular you shall haue ansvver vvhen I come to your 7 and 8 demand 3. Demand Your demand is here to know Whether those reformed Assemblies whereof you speake are worse then the Iewes Sinagogues and your ministers worse then the Scribes and pharises which sat in Moses Chayer Whom Christ commanded the people to heare c. 3 Answ Your demand then being onely in desence of your reformed Assemblies it had been vvell if you had shevved us vvhere and vvhich those assemblies be that are reformed Wee knovv indeed that many amongst you both ministers and people haue made much suite to Parliaments and vvrote many bookes of vvhich I haue read some for reformation of your Church and Ministery but still to the best of our discerning all your parish assemblies are as before vnder one and the same order and maner of vvorshippe ministerie and confusion of people all governed by the fame spirituall laws spirituall Lords their spirituall courts and canons all being stil one Church all one communion and fellovvshippe so that your Demand being onely for your reformed assemblies and yet you tell us not which nor vvhere they be how can vvee giue you a direct ansvver to your demand First therefore tell us vvhere and vvhich those assembles be that are reformed then you shall haue a direct ansvver God vvilling In the meane time vve vvill take this for one advantage among the rest that is that there appeareth a checke in your conscience because you make your defence or demand but for a part of your Church that is your reformed assemblies vvhereby you intimate that there is a vvorser sort of assemblies that are vnreformed vvhich you vvill not pleade for vvhere as if your Church or Church-asseÌ„blies of England vvere Christs true Church vve thinke you should haue labored to defend the vvhole is not every one of Christs true Churches to be defended hovv deceitfully then doe you deale vvith your Church that seeke to vphould your reformed assembles and neglect the rest all being in one brotherhood and communion together But it may be sir you are driven to shift for your selfe therefore if you vvill shevv vs vvhich be your reformed assembiles vve will shevv you great difference betvveen those Sinagogues of the Ievves vvhere Christ and his disciples did teach and your parish assemblies great difference betvvene those that sat in Moses Chayre vvhich vvere in true office vnder Moses according to the lavv and you vvith the rest that haue no true office vnder Christ according to the gospell Your
conditions of the most with whom the better sort stand all in the communion and in one order or disorder rather being mingled together all in one brotherhood and that not by personall fayling but by the very constitution and lawes of your Church civill and ecclesiasticall cleane contrary to the revealed will of God in his Word Even you your self Sir that are a leader and professe your selfe to be a guide to the blinde you breake the law of God and defile his holy things you put no difference betweene the holy and prophane neither discerne between the vnclean and the cleane so the Lord is prophaned among you Eze. 22.26 Consider I pray you and compare together these few places of Scripture Mat. 18.1516.17 Rom. 16.17 1. Cor. 5.11.12.13 2 Thes 36.7 c. and then compare this order heere appointed by Christ and his apostles vnto the order of your Church and Parish-assemblies you shall see even by these 5. places of scripture how far you are from that holy order which Christ in his last will and testament hath given and appointed vnto his visible Church to walke in and to practise You compell all that are of your Parish howsoever vnworthie or vnable to pay their offrings and to receiue the communion especially at your holy time of Easter there is the table prepared bread and wine set come that will and welcom Esay 65.11.12 yea if they be dwelling in your Parish and will not pay their offrings and come to the communion daily they are by you presented into your spirituall Courts thither they are summoned if they appeare not obedienly paying their fees clearing the bookes c. they shall be by that Court excommunicated out of your Parish-assemblies and then before they may be admitted againe either to the fore named banquet or to your devine service as you call it their purses must pay deere enough for a blessing or absolution which they must receiue humbly kneeling on their knees before Mas Commissary or Mas Chancellors worship and if they die excōmunicate before they haue received this bounsing blessing they may not be brought into your holy ground to be buried there in christian buriall as you call it vnlesse their friends will first purchase absolution for them If the mould of this came not from Rome then I pray you Sir shew vs where you learned it for in the whole Bible we cannot finde any such spirituall order given or appointed by God vnto his Church 5 Demand Your 5. demand is Whether that in Constantines the first Christian Emperour tyme and ever since vnto M. Iohn Calvins dayes for the space of 13 hundered yeeres there was no Christian Churches in Asia Africke and Europe because they had the same outward constitution formall state Bishops Archbishops Metropolytans and Church government for substance substance of doctrine that our English Church hath and retaineth c. To tell you the truth I know not well how to answere this your demand yet not because it is so divinely grounded on the word of God but only because I want scoole learning and knowledge of auncient Authors writings as being not able to read and vnderstand them so that now you haue me at a non plus as wise men and fooles vse to say Yet this is one thing much to be lamented that a man of your place and learning should leaue the Scripture the true worde of the living God and thus inquire of the dead but according to the ould proverbe like will to like 5 Answer Thus much I say for answer to this your far-fetched demand I do beleeue and am fully perswaded by the word of God that in whatsoever Emperours or Kings time since the time of Christ in what Nation or Country soever whether in Asia Africk Europe or wheresoever any Church or Churches hath been is or shall be gathered or constituted in any other manner or by and with any other matter vnder or vnto any other worship ministry spirituall Governours or spirituall government then the same for substance in manner and matter which Christ and his Apostles haue appointed in the new testament they are not the true visible Churches of Christ I do not meane hereby an absolute true and perfect gathering or constituting but that all things both for the gathering and continuing of the true visible Church of Christ must be so far as can be discerned by men agreable to the word of God as God shall make men able to discerne and vnderstand the Scriptures And this is all that I can say for answer to this your demand only I will not loose the good advantage that I haue gained by the same which is this I see that you are not able to approue your Church by the word of God and therefore you are driven to make inquiry and to look about you to see if you can espie and find out any other Churches though never so far of whose constitution or gathering ministry and worship ecclesiasticall Governors and Ecclesiasticall government is for substance lyke vnto you hoping by them to iustifie your selues but how like it is that other Churches can afoord you any help or sauegard when as by the verdict of Gods word you stand cōdemned let the godly iudge Hee hath neede of a staffe that leaneth on a reed And yet even for this your poore proof it is affirmed by some who know those histories that it is a very boast without all truth that the Churches either in Constantines time or a long time after were gathered by compulsion of all tag and rag in the empyre as yours are of all in the kindome or that there were any such Arch Bishops or Lord Bishops with sole authority to rule and governe Besides let the Reader note how in your very Demand you do grauut the great difference betweene the Churches since Calvines time that is betweene all reformed Churches and your vnreformed Church of Enland 6 Demand Your sixt Demand is Whether the reformed Churches in the lower and higher Germany in France the Churches in Geneva c. that come neerer to our constitution and discipline you say then yours in England do be true visible Churches or no c. To this your Demand you haue added two branches depending vppon the former the which I will answer as you haue set them downe one afer another 6 Answer I answer yea they are true visible constituted Churches and haue a true and lawfull ministery set over them both which you in your Parish-assemblies want Then you further demand and say If they be such why then do not we adjoyn our selues to some of those but distaste them you say as much as wee do yours I thinke Sir it had been a poynt of wisedom first to haue heard our answer before you had thus hastily affirmed that we distast them as much as we do yours but Solomon hath answered you for your haste Pro. 29.20 And I will answer your Demand I haue in my
former answer affirmed thē to be true constituted Churches that they haue a true lawful ministry set over thē whereby you see we do not alltogether distaste them as much as we doe yours And now to this your Demand which is why we do not adioyne our selves vnto them c. I think this may serue for answer we can not vnderstand their language and I think you cannot giue vs any good reason why we should adioyn our selves to worship God though in a true Church when we can not vnderstand what they say for how should we profit or be edified by their doctrine how should we say Amen to their giving of thanks seeing we know not what they say 1. Cor. 14.16.17 You yet further Demand Why we do not in iudgement assent vnto any or all those reformed Churches that with a ioynt consent as may appeare you say by the harmony of confessions acknwledge the Church of England to be a true Church and giue it the right hand of fellowship how dare they say you refuse c. To this I answer I do not know that the word of God bindeth vs to assent vnto the iudgment of true Churches any further then we vnderstand their iudgment to assent with and agree vnto the word of God True Churches may err in their iudgment of another Church especially if they be not rightly informed of their estate as it appeareth the reformed Churches are not rightly informed of yours for how then can they approue of the constitution ministry spirituall governours spirituall governmēt of your Church to be warrantable by the word of God but they must in so doing condemne themselues for in all these points they are as far contrary to you as white and black true and false are the one to the other and I suppose none will say that two such cōtraries can be both true But mind with all the Apostle saith to perticular Churches and persons iudge ye what I say 1. Cor. 10.15 beleeue not every spirit but try the spirits c. 1 Ioh. 4.1 And againe if any man preach otherwise vnto you then we haue preached let him be accursed Gala. 1.8.9 Now you seeme to teach vs another Gospell for you would not haue vs iudge and try our selues and others by the word of God but send to other Churches in Germany in France and Geneva heare what they say and what they iudg for truth or falshood if they approue who dare disalow if they giue the right hand of fellowship how dare we refuse c. Thus you daube with vntempered morter haueing nothing but such ould popish valour to countenance your Counter-Demands doth ill beseeme a man of your place and learning Heare what the word of God saith To the Law and to the Testimony if they speake not according to this word it is because there is no light in them Isay 8.20 Your leaving of this Law and this Testimony makes vs leaue you you may as well bid vs put out our owne eyes that other men may lead vs and as soone will we follow you in that as in this your popish counsell We haue learned to liue by our owne faith and to know that every man must bear his owne burden and answerr for him selfe vnto God Hab. 2.4 Gala. 6.5 And to think that any may excuse them selues or be the boulder because they haue the approbation of others when they can not approue themselues by the word of God will proue but an evill and false delusion of Sathan therefore seeing that all men even whole Churches may erre in their iudgments let every man take heed how he iudgeth and how he dependeth on other men and makes flesh his arme and will not heare the word of the Lord that reproveth his iniquities As for the reformed Churches we beleeue that they reioyce for the many truthes you witnes against Popery and we also do the like but if you rely vppon their aprobbation and will not examine your waies and try your selves by the word of God you may perish in your sins and other churches shal not be able to excuse or saue you And thus I think your sixt Demand is sufficiently answered Let him that readeth consider 7 Demand Your 7 and 8 Demands are so much alike that one may iudge them to be twins they resemble either other and so vnlike the rest therfore this answer shall serue for them both vntill further occasion be offered In your seventh Demand you thus begin How can the Church or Church assemblies bee false c. 7 Answer I answer your Church and Church-assemblies of England may be false for ought that you haue yet said to the contrary but if we might intreat you to set foorth and shew vs the right forme and fashion of the building of your Church we should the better discerne it and giue you a directer answer to your Demand then now we can do but in the meane time we will a little consider and examine what you say In these words of yours how can the Church or Church-assemblies c. you grant the whole nation to be a Church then me things you seeme to devide that Church into many Churches calling them Church Assemblies meaning thereby as I coniecture your Parish-assemblies 8 Demand And so it appeareth by your 8 Demand where you write thus How can the formall state as they call it of the provinciall diocesan cathedrall and Parishonall Churches of England and the regiment thereof be vnlawfull c Here you haue foysted in a word or two which I found not in the former which word because I vnderstand it not as you peradventure meane therefore I will not meddle with it neither will I meddle with popish names and titles of your Churches though you muster them vp so valorously as if you ment to terrifie the readers with the very names of them only this I finde your demand in both to be how the Church and Parish-assemblies of England can be false the rest dropt or rather scattered abroad throughout your Demands is but your vnsavery salt which you haue cast out vpon the dunghill of your counter work all being as you think so couched together as that it cannot be easily raked abroad but I will try if by the help of God and the truth of his word I can shew what vnsavery stuffe it is 8 Answ To these your 7. and 8. Demands I answer that to hould and maintaine a nationall Church that is to hould that any nation can be a church now in the time of the Gospell we deeme to be erroneous and false and do affirme that no warrant or defence for it can be found in the word of God It is an humane invention and differeth from the testament of Christ which sheweth many Churches to be in a nation or Country as in Iudea Asia Galatia c. Gala. 1.2.22 Rev. 1.4 But not any nation to be a Church Now that yours is a Nationall Church
not only the name and title as it is vsually called besides your own grant but the cōstitutiō also sheweth for it hath a pastor over the whole nation the Archbishop of Canterbury Metropolitan and Primate over all England your most reverend father in God who maketh consecrateth the Diocesian Bishops whereupon ariseth Diocesian Churches or Sees and they againe make your Parish Priests to the Archbishops and to his successours the inferiour Bishops haue sworne So help them God in Iesus Christ all due reverence and obedience This your book of consecration sheweth and we desire you to shew vs warrant for those things in the Scripture if you can or else shew vs where you haue learned them In your 8 Demand you say thus The name calling and office of these Bishops for either you must meane these Bishops or the like or else you speake nothing to the matter in hand Whether say you wee respect ordination of ministers or power of jurisdiction is the same for substance expressed in the New testament And this you say hath been and will be proved seeing it hath had a continuall succession from the Apostles time vnto this day c. If you were as redy to proove as you are to affirme things then were your valour something worth But you and the rest are so loth to be drawne to prooue yow ministry and ordination by the word of God that if you cannot make vs take your word for the lawfullnes therof then you will try by all means possible how you can get vs into some prison and keep vs there vntill you haue founde your proofe out of some other darke corner for by the light of Gods worde wee thinke you will never be able to proue the lawfullnes thereof These things that you say have indeed been often by others affirmed but never otherwise proved then by you at this present But if you good sir would now take the payns to proue what you haue saide by the word of God your paines would deserue thanks of many And withall let me intreat you sir I pray you because you say it hath had a continuall succession from the Apostles time vnto this daye to shewe me for my learning which of the Apostles was the Arch Apostle or Archbishop If you please so to call him ouer or before all the rest and from whom or by what authority he had that high place and Lordly office And also where and with whom he left that his Arch-Metropolitane authoritie to lord it over the rest as these do at this day as you say I professe vnfainedly that if I could see these things proved by the word of God I would soon through Gods mercy change my minde But in the meane time to let passe the rest of that frothie stuffe which might be raked together in these your 7 and 8 Demands I will come again to your 7 demand though I could from the 16.17.18 and 19. lines in your 8 Demand light you such a candle as I think you would be loath that any should see the light thereof but I will not blow at that cole now yet you against your will I am sure haue made a fayre beginning to kindle it where you say thus The Pope was not Antichrist before he had gotten the title of vniversall Bishop nor compleat vntill he had gotten into his bands both swords that is both Civill and Ecclesiasticall Dominion if I should now add but a little of your owne fuell to that coale these your words would discover a great part of the mistery of iniquity which growes in your ministry at this day But to let that passe nothing doubting but God in his good time by the brightnes of the Gospel wil cause the same to appear more and more dayly I will come to your 7 Demand where you tell vs of the Gospell soundly and substantially taught and professed and the sacraments so rightly administred and received in your Church as for proportion no country in the world you say nor Nationall Church whatsoever can affoord the like c The like vaine boast of all the grounds of Christian religion soundly held and professed c. I met with in your third Demand but neither there nor heare you speake any word of the practise Christian religion and of the kingly power and office of Christ governing your Church of these things you say nothing nothing how Christ ought to reigne as King in his Church by his owne Lawes and ordinances executed and administred in and by his owne offices and officers which he hath given unto and appointed in his Church forthat worke Ephe. 4.11.12.13 Rom. 12.6.7.8.9 Not a word of this I pray you Sir let not this candle be light howsoever you do you may make your people think that Christ will be a Prophet to teach them and a Priest to sacrifice for them though he be not a King to rule and reigne over them in and by his owne Lawes and officers they peradventure know not or dare not tell you that this is a denying of apart of the mediatorship of Christ therefore Sir as long as you can let them not know the kingly office of Christ nor what the Holy Ghost saith in Luk. 19.27 let them know no other government for the Church but your spitituall courts it wil serue their turne well enough untill the Lord shall moue their harts better to consider and discern the truth of his will reveiled in his word which in his good time he will do unto all those that earnestly desire and with upright harts seeke and labour to worship and serue him in spirit and in truth And now I will labour to shew the deceit of your vainglory in boasting of the word and sacraments which you say are so soundly taught and administred c. You would haue us and all men take it for granted that the nation of England is the true visible Church of Christ which you are not able to proue then you go on telling us of the sound and substantiall things in this your Church but we would first intreat you to shew us your Church constituted and builded according to the scripture if your Church be as you would make us beleue then shew it that we may see and discerne whether it be soundly and substantially built of choyse trees and of pretious living stones to the best of mans discerning hewed and squared and fastned together according to the heavenly patterne every stone living elect and pretious I say still in the best of mans discerning every stone hauing his beauty his burden and order all of them laboring to support one another to edifie one another to exhort to admonish and reproue one another that so they may be the habitation of God as these scriptures do shew Exo. 19.5.6 and chap. 25.8.9 40. 1. Chro. 29.2 Zach. 14.21 compared with Heb. 8.1.2.5.6 c. Chap. 9.11.14.1 Pet. 2.4.5.7.8.9 Act. 2.37.41.42 Rev. 1.5.6 Heb. 3.13 Chap. 10.24.15 Lev. 19.17