Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	church_n	minister_n	ordain_v	2,580	5	8.7933	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

amongst other considerations the course of the Gospel should not be stayed till ordination be fetched from farre countreys the Lord himselfe oftentimes supplieth the places of the Ministers and Elders and layeth on his hands such evidence of gifts and graces proper for the Ministry as not onely the Church doth willingly acknowledge but the enemies also will they nill they are in their consciences convinced to be divine and excellent And seeing it is evident that neither the Prophets under the law nor many worthy Ministers that God hath raised up since the time of the Gospel had ever before their entrance into the Ministry their gifts solemnly approved or been ordained Our Brethren must needs grant that this kinde of ordination is not simply or absolutely necessary to the being of a Minister To which also this may be added that our Saviour in giving notice whereby the true Pastor should be discerned from the false nameth only these viz. that he enter himselfe and lead the people in and out by that dore Secondly that the people of God agree with him and consent to his Ministrie Thirdly that the Porter the holy Ghost open the hearts of the hearers to him and his doctrine a which 3. notes doubtlesse our Saviour would not have rested in if there could have been no true Minister without the ordination which our Brethren speak of and urge that as a matter of absolute necessitie Their second reason viz. that we reccive our Ordinatiō from Antichristian Bishops ialso insufficient for first Our Bishops cannot trulie be called Antichristian So that to conclude this point wee say that the ordinary course of entring into the Ministrie is not kept but a great imperfection and want is to be acknowledged where this election and ordination is not used Yet is not the want such as taketh away the very life and being of a true ministerie Their second reason against our entrance is That our ordination is received from Antichristian Prelates and such as being persecutors of the godly cannot bee well accounted brethren or members of the Church much lesse can they give a calling to a Minister of the Church whereunto we answer First Secondly seeing our Bishops are such as can judge of the sufficiencie of gifts and are also Ministers It cannot be unlawfull for him that is to bee a Ministers to receive approbation and authoritie from them That the Bishops of England cannot truly be called Antichristian Prelates for proofe whereof wee referre our selves unto that answer we have given unto their fourth Objection against the whole bodie of our Church Secondly seeing it cannot bee denied that the Bishops are able to judge of such gifts as are required for the sufficiencie of Ministers yea that many of them have beene such Ministers themselves as to whose labours the Lord hath set to his Seale and who have also suffered persecution for the truth we are perswaded that though it were not necessary yet it cannot be unlawful for him that entreth into the ministery to be approved and authorized even by them And if our ordination be in this behalfe faultie how will out Brethren justifie the calling of their own Ministers Thirdly the gifts power to ordaine which God hath commited to his Church we may lawfully seeke the benefit of it even at worse mensch n●s then our Bishops are if we cannot otherwise come by it that have received ordination ever from the people who neither by commandement not example can be found to have any such authoritie nor are in any degree to capable of it as the Bishops Thirdly the ordination we seeke for from the Bishops is not theirs but committed to the Church by Christ Himselfe And seeing wee have already proved that there was in England a true Church even then when this authoritie was first given by Parliament to the Bishops and that the true Church which without a ministerie cannot possibly bee continued is never without power to ordaine Ministers Wee may lawfully reverence and seeke for the benefit of this power and pri●●ledge which God hath given to his Church though it were conveied unto us by men lesse capable of this authoritie then our Bishops are And he that thinketh Christs ordination the better for the man that bestoweth it iucurreth as we thinke the danger of the curse Fourthly We may lawfullie seeke the Bishops approbation because from his hands only we can receive the civill Magistrates allowance to exercise our Ministrie denounced against him that putteth his trust in man and maketh flesh his arme and nith dra●eth his heart from the Lord. Ier. 17.5 Fifthly If our Bishops were not at all capable of this power to give Ecclesiasticall Ordination yet seeing the Christian Magistrates approbation is not to be refused by him that exerciseth a ministerie in the Church and that cannot be had in our Church but by the hands of the Bishops we thinke that he who is fitted of God to the ministerie and hath also testimonie of his fitnesse from such godly learned Brethren as have made tryall of his gifts and can judge of them may lawfully accept and seeke for this kinde of approbation if all other conditions bee equall Sixthly Admit the Bishops from whom we receive our ordination 6. Though the Ordination received from the Bishops were as corrupt as baptismal received from popish Priests Yee may he be a lawfull Minister that hath no other Ordination then from the Bishops Their third Objection agaiust our Ministerie is that our administration and exercise of that office whereunto we are thus called is also Antichristian were indeed Antichristian or Heretickes as we judge them not to be yet why should wee bee bound to seeke for any other ordination more than another baptisme then that which we have received from Popish Priests in the time of ignorance And seeing that Barrow and Groenwood in the 54. page of their refutation doe not onely account many to be true Christians that never had other outward Baptisme then that which they had from Popish Priests but plainely affirme that such neither need nor ought to be baptized againe we wonder why they dare not account us true Ministers because of this ordination received from the Bishops Shall ordination bee thought more necessary to the being of a Minister than baptisme is to the being of a Christian or shall an error in ordination have more force to prove one no Minister than an error in Baptisme hath to prove one no Christian or are our Bishops worse than the Popish Priests or the corruption in the forme of our ordination greater than those that are used in popish Baptisme The third thing they object against our Ministerie Is that the admistration and exercise of our function is not agreeable to the Word but Antichristian because say they as at our entrance we sweare Cannonicall Obedience to the Bishops Fifthly Which is insufficient to warrant their separatiō for it is not utterly

in profane Heathenisme vaine Philosophie ungodly Arts trained up in Idolatrie Superstition and most filthy Abhomination Perjurie Blasphemie c. These men by precisenes and outward shew of Holinesse Hypocrisie Vain-glory and Covetousnesse resemble or rather exceed the Pharisees And the 38. page of their Discovery Such a Priest as this is a Blasing star a Paragon of a Countrie one of the new found Martin Saints and such People are Puritans or Martinists Preficians c. And in the 193. page they name the Ministers of Geneva and their Churches Classes I dare not say the secret Classes in England doe make Ministers for us in England And these Ministers when they are come over are received and esteemed as Angels in hell and shine as bright stars in this smokie Egyptian furnaces And in the 12. page of their Collection of Letters speaking of two very worthy Preachers they have these words I suppose more corrupt Teachers then these cannot be found is any age they teaching nothing almost truely much lesse sincereli● To this we may refer the unreverent and malicious speech against the most godly learned that have lived in the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas as in the 23. page of their Discovery they call us the crooked Disciples of Master Calvin And in the 18. page Master Calvin hath no doubt unsufferably perverted and wrested these and other places of Scripture and drawne very foule and corrupt doctrines thence touching the state and order of a planted Church and more dangerous and damnable conclusions from the same And in the 33. page This and such like d●testable stuffe hath Master Calvin in his ignorance partly to confute the Anabaptists partly to defend his own rash and disorderly proceedings of Geueva whereby this their Church became a just reproach to all men yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable precident and pernicious example to all Europe The last note which we will observe for the triall of their spirit is their scurrilous and ruffanlike profanesse wherein they seeme to us to have expelled all that in a show of zeale and sinceritie have written or dealt in the holy things of God In the 52. page of their Discoverie speaking of Ordination they have these words He solemnly sitteth in his chaire and layeth his Symoniacall hands upon him delivereth the Bible into his hands breatheth upon him and giveth or rather selleth him his unh●●y Ghost as he shall know by the price of his box In the 73. page having spoken against red stinted prayers and being come to speak against the prayers which godly Preachers doe conceive according to the present occasions of the Church Thus they scoffe at them Other more smooth H●pocrites yet as grosse Idolaters use the Lords Prayer as a close or supply forsooth to their long Prelix Prayers conceived before In the 86. page of their refutation He most sacrilegiously selleth them his pretended Sacrament for their second shot or offering In the 97. and 98. page of their Discoverie speaking of our publique Fasts thus they write Here the learned Priests and Preachers lay their heads together choose out three or soure from among them to preach some of them must play Sinne another the Judgements of God the third Repentance the fourth the Gospel the people are solemnly bidden from all quarters to this Stage Play who as the first invention of it flocked in thick and threefold to behold this novelty He that playeth Sinne amongst some other faults will reprove such as do not diligently enough countenance the preaching Priests I should say frequent not their Sermons for the want of the Dise pline all that mourne in the chine and sigh in secres for it though neither Priest nor people know what it meaneth yet they must now fast and then the fault is not in them but in God Almightie that they have it not If you come now to the second Table they are severe men they will make Conscience to tremble If there bee ever an Usurer or a Drunkard or an Whoremaster they will so back-bite him that hee will not love a Sermon a good while againe These men must beare with them if in the Pulpit when they are ravished with the zeale of the Lord they have now and then a gird at them to ease their s●o makes especially now for fashion sake And in the 99. page when the P. P. have ended then are the people dismissed where I trow for that night is no talke either by the way as they goe home or at their supper but how excellently such a man and such a man did The Priest themselves that tooke this paines are bestowed at some good hosts or some good Dan●es Houses where at night they recompence their fasting and mourning with good cheare and case And in the 180. page They had a presoript place like a Tubbe called their Pulpit and the Preacher for the most part disputes to the Houre-Glasse which being run his Sermpcin action must be at an end And a little after here would not be fergotten the sweet Palmodicall harmonie of the Vultures Crowes Gleades Owles Geefe of the Leopards Beares Wolves Dogges Foxes Swine Goats All these with one accord Sympathy and Harmony sing some pleasant ballad or else unto Davids Melodious Harpe some Psalme in time to stirre up the spirits of their worthie Priest or Preacher who being thus wrupt and ravished with this Harmonie goes to his Geare in forme above said where his mouth distills and his lipps drop downe old Parables c. And in the 191. p. Master Parson takes to him his Pastorall staffe or wooden dagger of superstition where with hee keepes such a flourishing as the flie can have no rest yea by your leave if any poore man in the parish offends him he may peradventure goe without his Bread and Wine for that day and in the 192. page speaking of the Bishops and dumbe Ministers Indeed their Cake is Dough it this geare this sweeping new Reformation come in In the 128. page speaking of Churching of women they have these words she having offered her accustomed offering to him for his labour God speed her well she is a woman on foote againe And in the 244. page of their refutation they call our prescript prayers The smoake of the bottomlesse pit But what need wee any further evidence or demonstration of their spirit Sure we are that by this which is alreadie set downe it will well appeare to the wise and Christian Reader that Gods Spirit never taught men to write as those men who are knowne to have beene the chiefe perswaders and seducers of these our deceaved brethren have done To conclude if wee did grant that the Assemblies which these men have gathered and joyned themselves unto were not equall onely but much better reformed then ours yet by joyning to them with disclayming and condemning utterlie all other reformed Churches in the world wee see not why they may not thereby be said to divide Christ As well as they of Corinth should have done if they joyned unto and fellowed Paul so as withall they forsaked and despised Apollos or Cephas FINIS

borne but stedfastly opposed to their great reproach dammage and danger many wayes the corruptions in our Church-government worship and Leiturgie and have beene lights and leaders to these latter times therein yet alwayes in a peaceable and regular way as not on the one side to subject themselves to suspitious inventions so on the other not sinfully to separate from the Communion and true worship of Churches accounting it more agreeable to all rules of pietie charitie and Christian prudence to tolerate for the time what they could not mend rather than to rent and teare all in peeces to an utter ruine To conclude though perhaps some few particulars in this treatise may seeme more questionable yet for the maine I doubt not but the Authors have held close to the truth both in their owne positions and in opposing their adversaries By which therefore good Reader thou maiest reape much benefit for thy better settling in these unsettled times if thou be capable thereof and if the Lord shall please to adde his blessing thereunto Which hee shall never cease to pray for who is all that he is truly thine in Him W R. THE PREFACE of the AUTHORS of the Treatise ensuing to the READER THE holy Apostle Saint Paul writing unto the Galathians these words Brethren If any man be fallen by occasion into any fault you which are spirituall restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse considering thy selfe lest thou also be tempted both sheweth the danger of falling whereunto they are subject who stand in the Church of God and prescribeth the dutie of recovering those that are fallen unto such as are spirituall That is to say as are furnished with gifts thereunto with the manner how all that ought to be performed two necessary points in our judgements to be considered and much tending to the preservation of the good and happy estate of the Church of God for how cometh it to passe that Sathan so farre prevaileth against it but for that weake men consider not the danger of falling untill they be downe and almost past recovering those that are fallen either not at all or not untill they be well neere without remedy It is therefore one especiall part of holy wisedome for men who think they stand to take heed lest they fall and therefore to seeke to kneow the depth of Sathans pollicies and subtilties and then the effectuall means for the preventing of them Into which if they carefully enquire they shall finde that though hee seeke to draw even those that have shined as starres in the Church from heaven unto the earth yet that he much more earnestly laboureth to make them wandring starres forsaking the place wherein they seemed to be fixed to give shine and direction to others that is though hee laboureth and endeavoureth to bring men from their first love and zeale unto a lukewarmnesse or key coldnesse in the Church yet he rather desireth to lead them into a fierie spirit and indiscreet zeale from the Church and societie of Saints which no doubt he doth as for many other causes so for these two 1. That he might by their departure who have seemed zealous and godly professors shake the faith of others and cause them to doubt that they are not in the true Church where they may finde directions toward the kingdome of heaven and at last to flie from it as from Babylon And 2. that he might deprive those men themselves of the happy meanes of the recovery which they might have had easily applyed had they beene in the Church and remained in the fellowship thereof Hence it is that in the Church of God those who breaking the holy bands of love and faith have like unkinde children forsaken her their naturall mother and oft pleaded with her as a strumpet which never was done in more convenient manner then of late by certain of our brethren who having been brought forth of the wombe and brought up in the bosome of the Church of England have not onely renounced as a stepmother but condemned her as one of the daughters yea the eldest daughter of the very whore of Babylon railing on her as if she living in continuall spirituall fornications brought forth sonnes and daughters not unto Christ but unto Antichrist his adversary By which their faults and fallings as they have deprived themselves of those gracious blessings which they did long and might have still enjoyed amongst us to their soules health and made the meanes of their recovery more hard and difficult so have they troubled and disquieted many remaining in the body of our Church and of strong men in the truth brought them to be children again in understanding easie to bee carried about with every blast of diverse and strange doctrines how contrary soever to the truth according unto godlinesse either taught or received by them The case thus standing we take it to be our duties being members and Ministers of this Church having by Gods grace received some though a small measure of gifts fit thereunto as to maintaine the credit of the Church wherein we live And to justifie the practise of our ministerie therein so farre forth as truth will permit so chiefely to seeke and endeavour both the recoverie of those that are strayed from the sheepfold of Christ amongst us and also the stay of those that are ready to runne after them together with the better grounding and confirming of them who remaine in the flocke with comfort under their shepheards which duty we have endeavoured to performe heretofore by publike preaching and private conferences as occasions hath beene offered and now have bestowed our labours in writing this treatise following to the same end wherein after wee have proved by certaine reasons that our Assemblies are the true Church of God we take upon us to shew First The foure chiefest exceptions they take against our Church for warranting Schisme and separation from us are vaine and frivelous Secondly That the maine grounds they stand upon for the erecting their new Church are weake and slender Thirdly that the best arguments that they use for condemning us and justifying themselves are loose and unsufficient which points as we have gathered out of their printed books and written papers where they were before scattered and brought into one forme and body so have we more plainely and nakedly both proposed and dealt in passing by all impertinent and offensive matters And their flouting declamations petitions exclamations and bitter reviling speeches against our Churches Ministers and people all their reprochfull slanderous profane scornings fearefull blasphemies against the Word preached and Sacraments administred prayers and holy exercises of Religion used in our Assemblies wherewith their writings and printings swell to some bignes as Bladders puffed up with winde All these though wee have given the Reader some taste of their spirit in them yet have wee not in our Treatise stood upon them for that wee judge them not worthy the answer This worke

societie They yet remember it is a part of wisdome to stay the full establishing of their Church and practise of the Ordinances thereof for a time that they may see what blessings of God bee upon it for the ratifying and approving of their doings for if it bee of God it will stand as an house founded upon a a sure Rocke if it bee of men it will come to naught A third sort to whom we commend this worke of ours are our stronger brethren which continue with comfort in the societie of their Church them wee intreat that if they finde any confirmation or strengthening unto their consciences by the pursuing hereof any increase of knowledge and ability to maintaine the truth of our Church Sacraments and word to defend the lawfulnesse of our ministerie and practise of Gods externall worship amongst us That first they praise God whose gift it is that any thing is spoken or written for their edification instruction and consolation and then bestow the same as occasion shall be offered to the reclaiming of those that are straied and holding them that are ready to wander Wee lastly commend this simple travell of ours to the Church of God whereof we are unworthy Ministers beseeching her to accept our poore endeavours the rather for that wee are not ignorant that the labours which we have taken in this cause will be diversly judged of according to the manner and affection of those men to whom this worke shall come Some as namely our deceived Brethren against whom we deale will hold it damnable and execrable as being bestowed against the Church of Christ against the Saints and children of God against the holy Truth taught in the Testament of Christ yea and that contrary to the light of our own consciences and knowledge of our owne hearts To the first part of this their charge and accusation we answer That whether they or wee be the true Church of God whether they or wee have the Truth taught in the Testament of Christ is the matter in controversie betwixt us If wee be the Church of God and have the Truth of Christ as we hope shall appeare by this Treatise then have they written and spoken against the Church of God and that in most shamefull and fearefull manner If they be the true Church of God and have his Truth which we assure our selves they shall be never able to prove then have wee spent our labours against the Church of God But have we done it wittingly and willingly against the light of our hearts This is indeed the second part of their charge but who made them the searchers of our hearts and judges of our consciences that they should accuse us to Im other and quench the light of Truth which hath shined into our soules especially when they heare our protestations to the contrary where is that Charitie that thinketh none evill which hopeth all things we say therefore unto the second part of their accusation with the Apostle We say the Truth in Christ our consciences bearing us witnesses in the holy Ghost that we can say nothing against the Truth but for the Truth wittingly and willingly And in the Testamonie thereof we pray God that our tongues may cleave to the roofe of our mouthes when we endeavour to speake and that our pennes may sticke to the ends of our fingers when wee attempt to write any thing against the Church Children or Truth of God Some others Fathers and Brethren Ministers and Members with us of this Church finding by our manner of writeing of what judgemeut wee are will hold our paines requisite and necessarie to stay the course of these waters which wee have given passage unto and to make up the breaches wee have opened by speaking against the government established in this Church the Ceremonies used therein and other our unadvised dealings in the execution of our Ministrie To these men wee say first that as we have beene and are perswaded of the Truth of these things which we have delivered touching the defects and wants the blemishes and deformities of this Church So have we in the sincerity and uprightnesse of our hearts dealt for the redresse and Reformation thereof Wherein though we know nothing by our selves before men more then Truth will permit if they should have taken occasion by our doctrine which we perswade our selves to be the doctrine of the Truth to make this Schisme Yet were this no reason to reprove us unlesse those men which have set downe true positions be to be blamed as Authors of the false Collections and Conclusions which are inferred and gathered thereupon Secondly wee answer That our deceived Brethren do no lesse condemne those Churches of God as the Synagogues of Sathan where the doctrine which wee have taught touching the government of the Church and matters of Ceremonies is maintained and where all things which wee hold offensive in our Church are abolished then they doe the Church of England insomuch that they have written of the Church of Geneva which is holden to be the best pattern of a Reformed Church that it became a miserable president and pernicious example even unto all Europe whereby it is evident that they have beene brought unto this Scisme by some other inducements then the dealing of those men in-the execution of their Ministrie who are charged to be the occasions if not the Authors thereof Thirdly there is such difference and plaine contradiction betweene them and us in judgement yea in the matter of discipline and Church government besides many other materiall points of doctrine as we marvell any men should esteeme us causes of their defections from this Church much more that any man should write That between the Brownists and others he meaneth them and us there is no controversie as touching the framing of a Church by the word of God A third sort of our loving Brethren approving our care of Gods Church and desire to reclaime poore deceived soules will yet happily esteeme our labour altogether needlesse and superfluous as spent and bestowed both against a cause that hath so little shew of truth and semblance of probabilitie nay so evident appearance of falshood and vanity as it is rather to be despised then confuted and also upon men whose zeale and rashnesse so far prevailes over sound judgement and discretion that we shall rather sharpen and increase their humour by thinking them worthy answering to a further contradiction then either informe their understanding by sound reason or alter their affection by efficacie of any perswasion These Brethren wee desire to give us leave to dissent from them who judge far otherwise of this cause wee handle and hope much better of the persons against whom we deale for the cause it selfe we say that though it did appeare as it is indeed full of falshood and and vanitie unto these that have the gift to discerne betweene those things that differ and withall to temper their affections which

us to joyne unto p. 62. THE Church of Engl. is a true Church OF CHRIST I. EXCEPTION THe first Exception is against the whole body of our Assemblies and our Church in Generall which they tearme Babylonish Synagogues and a whorish Idolatrous Church Henry Barrow in his discovery of the false Church Page 24. ANSVVER THat the Church of England is a true Church of Christ Our Congregations are true Churches For Arg. 1. We have and ●oyne together in the use of the preaching of the Gospell and administ ration of the Sacraments and such an one as from which whosoever wittingly and willingly separateth himselfe cutteth himselfe from Christ wee doubt not but the indifferent Reader may be perswaded by these reasons following First Wee enjoy and joyne together in the use of those outward meanes which God in his Word hath ordained for the gathering of a visible Church for proofe whereof wee alleadge that the meanes which we use and enjoy have been effectuall to the unfained conversion of many as may appeare both by the other fruits of faith and by the Martyrdome which sundry have endured that were Members of our Church and had no other meanes of conversion then such as we have Yea even those men who judge so hardly of us now are able to witnesse with us in this case That if their be any true faith and sanctification in them though it bee much increased as they think since they left us yet it was begun and bred in our Assemblies Secondly If these places of holy Scripture Marth 28.20 Eph. s 4.11 14. bee well examined it will bee found that the means which Christ ordained for the gathering of a visible Church are the very same which we enjoy even the preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments That which Henry Barrow saith against us in this point pag. 160. of his discovery viz. that there is not any one thing amongst us either in order or administration according to Christs Testament shall bee hereafter disproved when we shall come to justifie our Ministery of the Word and Sacraments against their arguments or Objection whatsoever Now that this is an infallible and good argument of a true Church appeareth Which is an in fallible note of a true Church because First There cannot any people be named that having these meanes may yet by the word be evicted not to have beene the true Church The Papists indeed bragge of these means but without cause for the doctrine of faith is not preached amongst them but oppugned and consequently they cannot have the true Sacraments which are Seales of righteousnesse Rom. 3.12 9 4. which is by faith Secondly the Scripture every where speaketh of the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments as of priviledges peculiar to the Church of God psalm 147.19.20 So while the Jenes only were the Church these priviledges were restrained to them Matth. 10 56. and never made common to the Gentiles till the partition wall being broken downe Acts 11.19 23. they also were incorporated to the Church of God So the Prophet saith Arg. 2. that this should be the reason why the Gentiles were moved to joyne themselves unto the true Church because there and no where else the Ministerie of the Word was to be found Secondly Our whole Church maketh profession of the true faith The confession of our Church together with the Apologie thereof and those Articles of Religion which were agreed upon in the Convocation House in the Yeare of the Lord 1562. whereunto every Minister of the Land is bound by Law to subscribe so farre forth as they concerne the confession of faith and the doctrine of the Sacraments doe prove this evidently for how shall wee better judge of the faith which our Church professeth than by such evidence Many Papists and Atheists are in our Land wee grant and many ignorant and wicked men besides who make not so cleere and so holy profession of the true faith as they should but that our Church accounteth any one to be her Child or member who either denieth Christ or professeth any other way to salvation then faith which worketh by love or who doth not professe this faith an some measure we confidently deny Now this reason also hath force sufficient to prove us the true Church for as true faith in Christ is that which giveth the life and being to such as are effectually called and so become Members of the Invisible and Elect Church so the profession of true saith is that which giveth life and being to a visible Church Upon this profession wee finde many that have beene incorporated into the visible Church and admitted to the priviledges thereof even by the Apostles themselves Act 8.37 38. 16.31.32 12. Yea and Simon Magus though he had neither faith nor the spirit of God yet because he made profession of faith was judged a member of the visible Church and baptized So the Church of Pergamus Act. 8 13. Revel 2.12 15. though it did toletate grosse corruptions in it it kept the faith of Christ and denied not his faith and was still called the Church of God The description of a Church which they give in the page 67. See our further answer to this in the defence we make for our people against the second Article of their third exception of their collection of Letters and conferences viz. That it is a company of faithfull people that truly worship Christ and readily obey him is utterly untrue it it be understood as needs it must of the visible Church for it every one that the Church may account a visible member be truly faithfull how is our Saviour to bee understood when he compareth the Church or Ministery to a draw-net which being east into the Sea gathereth as well that which must be cast away as good Fish * Matth. 13.47 48. And to a field where the Devill doth as busily sow tares as the Sonne of Man doth good Wheate * Matth. 13.37 39. or how shall that difference stand which the Scripture maketh betwixt the Lords judgment and the judgment of men if men may not account any members of the Church by their outward appearance and profession 1 Sam. 1617. Acts 13.28 unlesse they know them to have true faith which thing the Lords eye is only able to discerne Thirdly We hold and teach and maintaine against all Heretickes Arg. 3. and adversaries every part and Article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall and such as without the knowledge and believing whereof there is no salvation Our confessions Catechismes Articles of Religion published and approved of our Church may perswade all indifferent men of this Yet was not Henry Barrow ashamed to write in the 10th page of his discovery That all the Lares of God both of the first and second Table are here broken and forsaken both of the Ecclesiasticall and

same rule that we may mind the same thing whereby it appeareth that with those who hold the foundation wee both may and ought to hold and joyne our selves in the things wherein we are agreed notwithstanding our differences in those things that are not fundamentall By all which it is manifest how false and dangerous a doctrine that is which Henry Barrow in the 28. page of his discovery affirmeth that presumptuous sinne with obstinacie joyned thereunto breaketh the covenant with God if he had said it giveth the Lord just cause to cast us off and to make void that covenant whereby hee had bound himselfe unto us wee would have consented But that the everlasting covenant of God is utterly broken by a presumptuous sinne committed with obstinacie if wee should grant wee should condemne the generation of the just and darken much the glory of Gods Mercie who is constant in love towards those whom he hath receaved into covenant even though they bee many times unconstant and unfaithfull unto him And even as an Husband or wife ceaseth not presently to bee an Husband or wife when they have committed adulterie till by just divorce they bee separated so it is in this case as wee have above said Wee have a true Ministerie IN ENGLAND II. EXCEPTION THe second general exception is against the Ministery of our Church which they affirme to be false and Antichristian Concerning which they have these words in the page 146. and 147. of their refutation wee have perused all this rable of the ministerie of the Church of England and have not found any one of them right or almost in any point according to the right Rules of Christs Testament they are all strangers there they belong us to Christs body His Church neither are they 〈◊〉 is members to the Head And in the 147. page of the same back they ●● they say that our Minister is such as can have 〈…〉 God alleadging moreover that the wayes if the 〈◊〉 Church 〈…〉 are the wayes of death and have no promise of salves and in the 147. page they have these words Out of the smoake of the Bottomlesse pit all their Ministers come whe● that fallen st●rre An christ ha● the Key thereof given him to his Kingdome the false Church they have alwayes belonged alwayes served him in his sever 〈◊〉 shapes they have bin alwayes k●it to him as members to the head from him and not from Christ wee all see with our bodily eyes that the Church of England hath received them And in the 158. page of the same book they conclude thus The keeping of these offices cannot now belong unto or serve in Christs Kingdom His Church neither be knit unto Christ as the Head But as the Holy Chost witnesseth of them they have a King over them the Angell of the bottomlesse pit whose name is in Hebrew Abaddon and in Greeke Appollion as in all languages and places they discover ANSWER THat wee have a true Ministerie in this Land But it appeareth that our Ministery is holy and lawfull because the true Church hath received and approved our doctrine Iohn 10.3 5. Ephes 4.11 12 2 Iohn 4.6 2. Many have bin effectually called by our Ministerie And this reason taken from the force of our Ministery and hath force to prove the lawfulnesse of it it may evidently appeare by these reasons A true Church such as we have proved ours to be in our answer to their first exception could neither have received our doctrine at the first nor proved it so long nor have beene continued nourished and built up by it had not wee beene the true faithfull Ministers of Christ Secondly It is evident that many have beene brought by our Ministery to saving knowledge faith and reformation of life For proofe whereof wee appeale first to their owne consciences out of which wee desire them to answer us as in the presence of Almightie God Secondly By the manifest differences that may bee noted betwixt those that have beene taught by a learned Ministerie and those that have bad none who yet should bee in judgement and affection as good or better than the other if the Ministerie under which the other lived were not true and lawfull That this reason taken from the fruit of our labours is sufficient to prove wee are the true Ministers of God As appeareth in this 1. That the Lord in his most holy Word maketh this the most proper note of such ministerie as is according to his owne heart c Ier. 3.15 23 31. Iohn 10.25 Secondly In that the ministerie is oft justified and proved to be of God by this reason So that our Saviour Christ proveth Himselfe to be the true Messiah by doing the workes of the Messiah d Eph 4 11 12 Rom. 10.14 15. so may wee prove our selves true Ministers by doing the workes of God His Ministers To that which they object against this reason 2 Cor. 9.1 2. Rom. 13.17 18. 1 Thes 1.1 9. Mat. 12.5 6. Iohn 5.36 Notwithstanding that it is objected of other meanes viz. that thereby the Popish Church and Ministerie may be justified as well as ours seeing that many have beene converted by private conference and reading and by domesticall preaching and exhortations without a publicke Church alling We answer that though the Lord hath beene often wont heretofore and is able still to convert soules by private meanes and such as are extraordinary Yet cannot it be proved that any have beene converted usually or that publike Congregations have been gathered and builded up by any private interpretations and application of the Scriptures but by such only as hath been use by a lawful ministerie And whereas Henry Barrow excepteth further p. 152. and 153 and of his refutation that this argueth only true doctrine and not a true Ministerie we answer First That thereby he justifieth our doctrine which elsewhere he generally condemneth Secondly That he affirmeth only that true doctrine without a true ministerie doth ordinarily convert men but proveth it not nor indeed was able to prove it as shall hereafter appeare in the answer wee make to the second Article of their consequence But our Ministers have no promise of blessing in their teaching say they and therefore neither may they lawfully teach nor the people heare them To this we answer First Ezech. 3.2 7. That Gods Ministers have lawfully taught when they have not only wanted the promise that their labour should doe that people good whom they did teach but received assurance of the contrary Secondly That the people have lawfully heard Ionah 3.4 ● and hearkened to teachers that have come unto them when they as being utterly ignorant and unaconainted with Gods promises had no assurance to their consciences that God had promised a blessing to their hearing Objection first THe first thing they object against our Ministers Their first objection against our ministers is that the office whereunto our Ministers were called is

probable that they were not private men but had a speciall calling to the Office of preaching The Disciples that being scattered through persecutions went about preaching may very well be thought to have beene Ministers rather than private men unlesse we shall imagine there were no Ministers in Iernfalem before the Church was scattered but the Apostles only and Philip who is also called an Evangelist is the only man of name amongst all these scattered Disciples that preached The Prophets mentioned in the 1 Cor. 14. is very likely were either such as whose extraordinarie gifts did suficientlie prove to the Church that they were extraordinari●e stirred up and called of God or else such as being separated to the work of the ministerie were by that exercise of their gifts to bee fitted to the full execution of that office as those children of the Prophets were for the like purpose trained up in these Schooles of the Prophets mentioned in the Old Testament And as they cannot conclude out of these places that those Prophets were meere private men so shall they not f●●tle the name of a Prophet given in any place of holy Scripture to a meere private man The preaching mentioned Luke 8.39 the expounding of the way of God Acts 18 26. the exhorting spoken of 1 Thes 5.11 was not Eccle●iasticall or Church preaching but only private and do mesticall instruction Some other places which they alleadge a Phil. 2.15 16 Peter 3.12 concerne neither publike preaching nor private instruction but onely the constant profession of the truth and holy conversation which God requireth of every Christian Thirdlie the grosse disorders that are to be found in their Assemblie we have mentioned to which the strange cho●se of their Ministers may be added For by what Testimonic of holy Scripture can they warrant the admitting or choosing in to the ministerie such a one as within some six or eight weekes before was tramplanted from so Antichristian a Church and ministerie as they reckon ours to be As not onely Master Francis Johnson but sundrie other of their Ministers have beene Sure wee are that herein they have done directly contrary to the rule of the holy Apostle and for smaller faults then this they are ready to say against us in the 127. page of their refutation That he that hath not a true and right calling unto his Office is no true Minister but an Vsurper an Intruder a Thiefe a Murderer c. But what shall we need to reckon up any more of the disorders that may be noted in their Church government seeing it is not possible but that those Assemblies should be full of confusion and disorder where no Church censure can passe without the consent of every private man and wherein every member is made equall in power and authoritie with the Ministers and Elders of the Church These things being so what is there to be seene amongst them whereby so many simple Christians are deceived and moved to forsake us and joyne to them Save onely that shew of sinceritie and zeale and holy conversation wherein they are thought to go far beyond any of us Concerning which wee say that although the coversation of many of our people and Ministers also be very scandalous and the lives of the best of us far short of that perfection we dayly strive unto Yet it shall well appeare to him that will rightly consider these few lines following That the power of true godlinesse is much more wanting amongst them then 't is with us whom they have forsaken for it we may judge of the schollers by their teachers and of the miserable seduced multitude by their chief Leaders and if men do not use to speak much lesse to write but from the abundance of their harts then have they as smal cause certainlie to bost of their holines to say they are not as other men nor as we are whom they have forsaken as the Pharisee in the Gospel said (b) Luke 18 9.11.14 This wee dare boldly say that there was never any man of note in our Church that in his writings hath bewrayed so irreligeous and unsanctified a spirit as their chiefe Leaders have done For proofe whereof wee desire the Christian Reader to consider first the shamefull lies which wittingly and against the light of their owne hearts they have published and whereby they have in a manner borne false witnesse against us In the ninth page of their Discovery they say That all the Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and Heretiques of all sorts Whores Theeves Witches Conjurers and who not that dwelleth in this Island or is within the Queenes dominions are received and nourished within the bosome of this Church with the Word and Sacraments none are refused none kept out In the 60. page of their Discovery they say These Priests and people retaine the Leviticall Decimations in the same forme to the same end In the 63. and 64. pages they affirme That the service book is the very ground worke of our Faith Church and Ministry from whence we fetch all our directions for all things That we are sworne to and by this booke That the Word of God may not be taught but where this bath been read In the 28. page They say we all adore the words of Salutation which the Angel Gabriel used to the Virgin Mary That we worship either the Purification or the person of our Lady So they maliciously say we torme the blessed Virgin And that we powre out unto her our drinke Offerings and burne incense to the Queen of heaven Whereas through divers pages they charge us with keeping Fasts and Feasts to honour of Saints In the 100. page they say Their Priest Baptiseth the childe In the Name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and of the holy Crosse In the 148. page They say it is vtterly denyed in the Church of England that the Magistrate should be Excommunicated In the 183. page They say that it is impossible to finde two of ou● Ministers in one minde and judgement yea in any two Churches of the Land to have the same doctrine taught In the 188. page they say That no one place of Scripture which maketh expresse mention of the government of Christ As Rom. 12.1 Cor. 12. and 15. and is suffered to be so much as read in our Churches In the 175. page they say These new Glasses take upon them to make Ministirs A second note whereby we may try the spirits of their chief Leaders is their spitefull railing wherein they are so rich and plentifull as wee know not how to finde amongst all the rabble of profane and ungodly men any one that goeth beyond them in it our Ministers they call Balamites Cananites Babylonish Divines Egyptian Enckanters limmes of the Divell as bitter enemies as Turkish Ianizaries marked souldiers of the Beast such as know not the Doctrines of the beginning of Christ such as were nusled even from the mothers breast