70 c. For the Bishop and the Presbyter it must first be proved that these are distinct officers jure divino or else the contest is vain this is not a question for me to handle in this place but I can safely say this there must be more brought from Divine writ then I see is yet brought to prove it or else I can acknowledge no such thing I suppose Bishop Davenant in his Determination upon the question hath summed up what can be brought from Scripture but that will not doe yet he there in some cases will allow Presbyters to ordain and I think our case is as weighty as any Anselm the Popish Canterburian Arch-Bishop in his Comment upon Titus 1. Though I see much of it is taken out of Jerom gave me enough to quiet my thoughts about this question such lines from his pen took much with me considering the Scriptures he brought I am sure he that made the objection did not own any such distinction I think no sober Bishop did ever yet deny the Ordinations in the French Dutch and Scottish Churches to be valid The second Objection was made by another reverend Divine when I passed the Commissioners He put this question to me Whether I judged Ordination necessary to the Constitution of a Minister I answered Yes if it could be had He asked me to which command I would refer Ordination I answered to the second To which he assenting added Cultus naturalis could not nor must be laid aside but Cultus Institutus might rather then Cultus naturalis should God will have mercy not sacrifice in such a case but if I would say Ordination was necessary and might now be had then I must own it by succession and consequently maintain the Church of Rome to be a true Church Some words then passed but time cut us off To this reverend Divine I shall now give a further answer A. The first part of the speech saith no more then we allow onely when Ordination cannot be had I think it is not then properly laid aside 2. Preaching take the word strictly as it is the act 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not to be referred to the first Commandment I conceive but to the second nor do I see our Divines make it a part of Cultus naturalis 3. This notion will cut off popular election as well as Ordination if preaching belongs to Cultus naturalis for that must not be laid aside saith this Divine I hope popular election doth not belong to the first Commandment then election is as unnecessary and if men may preach without Election and Ordination we shall have brave work Preaching here is put for all other Ordinances where then is the essence of a Minister according to his owne notion But the last part of his speech was that where he put the most strength which yet hath been often answered that I might well spare my pains something I answered then and now will add more 1. Divers of our Congregational Divines of which this reverend Divine is one conceive and practise accordingly the Fraternity to have power of Ordination and if so then if election may be had Ordination may be had so shall it not need be laid aside nor shall we need trouble our selves about Rome that dispute rather may be laid aside I desired an Answer of him what he thought of it but he would give me none 2. But suppose his judgement be contrary According to this argument Ordination which we are sure was once an Ordinance of God and I have before proved it must be utterly lost unless with the Seekers we gape for some Apostles again For this argument of Succession may ever be urged and will be as strong to the worlds end as now But why must the Church lose an Ordinance If the argument be so strong against Ordination is it not as strong against any thing else that came through Rome Rome is no true Church ergo nothing that comes through Rome is valid What will be next Mr. Ainsw and other Separatists zealous enough against Rome would not say so of Baptism therefore admitted of no re-baptizing Nor would Mr. Johnson upon the same ground admit of re-ordination one was as valid as the other 3. If God hath so far owned the Ministry of England as to work with it to the conversion of many soundly and others visibly whence there are numbers to elect Ministers I doubt not but he will as well own the Ordination of Ministers by them though they had some accidental corruptions adhering to their own Ordination for the substance true If he hath not owned the Ministry how came our Brethren to gather Churches here some few years since those who elected them to office I believe very few of them if any in some places were converted by Ministers who were not ordained because they must have their Ordination by succession c. I pray where is there a Ministry in the world which God hath more owned 4. Let it be as this Divine saith because Cultus institutus may be laid aside Ordination may be also c. Let us see whither this will go then official preaching pardon the expression for I think all preaching properly so called is official Baptism the Lord's Supper Discipline may be all laid aside upon the same account for these belong to Cultus Institutus so the whole second Commandment lost which way shall we come to these for fear of Rome will he say that the Churches and those without Ordinances it seems may choose their Pastors suppose Wickliff Luther Zuinglius men gifted and raised extraordinarily and election giving the essence to a Ministers call these may now preach baptize c. so the second Commandment is saved else I know not which way he can save it though they be not ordained may not the same Ministers as well Ordain other Ministers Ordination belonging to the same Commandment surely no rational man can oppose it this he must yield to or else the whole instituted worship of God must be lost out of the Church as well as Ordination But if election will help then I hope most of the godly Ministry in England may ordain for they have been elected by the people men qualified and whom God hath blessed in their work more or less though they have more then election in their own esteem that hinders not they have that which you think can authorize them to preach baptize c. then to ordain as well and those who are ordained by such no doubt but may Ordain again so Rome and Succession trouble us not Ames grants that Wickliff Med. The. l. 1. c. 33. s 39. Luther Zuinglius may not unfitly be called extraordinary Ministers joyning some of our famous Martyrs with them and gives three reasons for the assertion the last is Quia ordine tum temporis perturbato collapso necesse habuerunt non nulla tentare praeter ordinem commune So Syn. Pur. The. D.
OF SCHISM PAROCHIAL CONGREGATIONS IN ENGLAND AND Ordination by Imposition of Hands Wherein Dr. Owen's Discovery of the True Nature of Schism is briefly and friendly examined together with Mr. Noyes of New England his Arguments against Imposition of hands in Ordination By GILES FIRMIN Sometime of New England now Pastor of the Church at Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 12.25 That there should be no Schism in the body 1 Chron. 15.13 The Lord our God made a breach upon us for that we sought him not after the due order LONDON Printed by T. C. for Nathanael Webb and William Grantham at the Bear in Paul's Church-yard neer the little North door of Pauls 1658. To the Reverend the Associated Ministers in the County of Essex Fathers and Brethren EIther we have dealt hypocritically with God and man or else the Divisions in these poore Churches have lain upon the hearts of the godly in England as an afflicting evil The Civil Power have seemed to be so sensible of this evil that more then once it hath been numbred amongst the causes in their Orders for our Solemn and Publike Humiliations if our Fast-days Prayers Sermons Books c. may be believed then the breaches in our Churches have broken our comforts For my part I have cause to take shame and to ask pardon of God that this sin which hath wrought so much evil and brought such dishonour to Christ have no more affected me it is for them whose hearts are most divided from self and united to God to be indeed affected and afflicted with Divisions in the Church I look on it as an act of a grown Christian whose Interest in Christ is well cleared and his heart walking close with God to be really taken up with the publike Interest of Christ I will not measure other mens hearts by my own but I must say for my self the good Lord pardon my hypocrisie in this point for to be affected as become Christians for Divisions among Christians I find it a hard matter whatever words seem to affirm Could I joy in my self I should be glad that I lived to see the day when the Lord put it into two or three of your hearts to try what might be done for the healing of our breaches and thereupon to call some of your Brethren together to see if we could agree so far that we might Associate together as some of our Brethren in other Countries have done and let me leave this upon record so long as this poor Script shall last for the honour of the Presbyterial Brethren as they were the first movers for peace so they have bidden fair for peace had our Congregational Brethren whose persons gifts and graces I desire to honour and love been but answerable we might have had cause to have joyned together in praises for our healing as we have had and still have cause to mourn for our breaches It is not to be forgotten how the good hand of God went along with us for though we were men of different principles who were chosen to draw up the agreement and we met neer twenty times before we could finish yet no unbrotherly clashing was heard amongst us but so soon as we saw each others principles to be fixed presently we were called off from Disputing and the next words were Come let us see how we can Accommodate let the blessing of Matth. 5.9 fall upon such hearts Were it true that uniting with our Brethren in this Association were a dividing of our hearts from God as one of our Congregational Brethren did intimate in a Sermon of his upon Hos 10.2 then I wonder not though he so soon deserted us and that others stand off from us For this he said was one note of the heart divided from God when the heart did not fully come up to God and under this head brought in such who did fashion and mould themselves in State and Church according to the Mode of the Times though contrary to their own principles and light cross to or laying by the Institutions of Christ when as the Text saith Jer. 15.19 If thou separate the precious from the vile c. our Brothers aim was understood by divers in the Congregation and unto him I shall return this answer If he means I have gone contrary to my own principles and light he is mistaken extreamly If he meant he and other Congregational men must do so if they Associate how can this possibly be when it was one of our foundations we laid for agreement and it was professed again and again that we went not about to take any man off from his Principles I wish our Brother had instanced what Institution of Christ we crossed or laid by For the Scripture he alledged let us see how this suits our case the Presbyterial Brethren do not indeed separate as do he and others but doth he therefore upon this Text stand off I finde five several expositions of the words and very few who take the word Precious for to relate to Persons But I will give my Brother that sense Let it be meant of Persons The Arabick word which the Translator render Honestus Golius renders generosus nobilis And the other Dalilon abjectus vllis contemptus as Piscator thinks it most proper because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alibi de persona tantùm dicitur And so the Interlineary gloss Now the question is 1. Who are meant by Precious 2. How Jeremiah was to separate these Precious from the Vile For the first those who do Interpret it of Persons do all understand real Saints and here standing so in opposition to others it must needs be meant so Obj. If he will say that doth not follow for all Israel were called holy and that in as high a word as precious I answer The Lord speaks of these who were called holy and yet here commands the separation of the Precious from the Vile therefore it must be meant of real Saints I could say more but spare 2. For the second How did he separate either by Doctrine or Discipline Not by Discipline which must serve my Brothers purpose For First To separate real Saints from vile by Discipline is a hard work indeed and such a task as the Lord never put his Ministers to who knew mens hearts then the Congregational Brethren must look to it that all their members are real Saints 1. But if my Brother saith by precious real Saints are not meant but visible though not so really Besides that all were called holy This my Brother must prove and then tell us what he means by a visible Saint But however separation by Discipline cannot be meant For 2. Jeremiah then had a strange task for he had no particular Church as we and for him to separate all visible Saints from the vile in the Jewish Church by Discipline were a strange and impossible work 3. Jeremiah a single Priest could not do it as all that know the Jewish governments will
the Ordinances we admit Indians to I hope they will not deny them admission to those I omit that great question whether Baptism be not a Regenerating Ordinance which divers Learned men abroad and at home doe maintain and have Scriptures which speak very fairly for them so much as I can scarcely be satisfied with the answers our Divines have given to those texts they bring Now though I have not so much light to carry me in any of these opinions and convince me fully of their truth yet I see so much argument for them that I am very tender towards those who goe upon these grounds whatever arguments I have against them which carry me another way and were I a private member of one of those Churches where there were so many those visible Saints an able godly Pastor and the Supper kept as I said I should not dare to separate from it as others doe I might adde to this how some Ministers though they doe baptize yet they deal roundly first with the Parents and so as some will come no more at them for Baptism And one an Episcopal Divine of eminent note hath refused to administer Baptism to the children of such parents as he found sottishly ignorant but sent them back first to learn the principles of Religion and assent to them So that had these who separate stuck close to their Ministers and encouraged them in thus dealing with those scandalous persons in private they might have done more towards reformation then now they have done 3. There were divers corrupt members in Corinth and their children baptized for ought I know a fault might be in the Officers and better part but no command to separate from the Officers 4. Should all the godly Ministers in England separate as these men would have us and goe by their rules in admission of Church-members I question whether there would be a godly Minister left in England the common people would not bear it And verily for godly Ministers to suffer death in things so disputable wherein holy men and Martyrs before did walk without any scruple having so much probability from Scripture as that argument of Circumcision with the rest before mentioned but yet more to suffer for rules which themselves made not the Apostles this is a hard chapter those who are so free of their lives may take their course I will blesse the Lord if he shall please to assist me with grace to lay down my life for him if he shall call me to it in things where I am confident I know his mind and the Scriptures are so clear that I need not doubt and in the mean time thank God I meet with such as will bear with me in things wherein I differ from them of lesse concernment arguments casting me on that side but not without great scruples on the other side I hear great words from some of these they will not practice any thing but what they are ready to lay down their lives for I dare not speak such great words 5. These men who thus separate when as yet there is nothing but the baptizing of their Infants they can object against yet allow in their Churches and think we are bound to allow such who deny all Infant-Baptism and will call the Anabaptistical Churches true Churches These who cast off all the Infant-posterity of Abraham from Church-membership these men must be admitted to the Supper and what not the others are debarred from the Supper but their Infants baptized which of these two is the worst I wonder for my part I would rather baptize the child of a wicked man professing Christ in words then not baptize the child of a godly man more reason and Scripture may be alledged for it Whence me thinks the Doctor being such a strong Champion for Toleration may allow unto the Presbyterial Brethren some benefit of his opinion for Toleration is Malorum and if this be evil I presume he looks on the Anabaptistical opinion as evil also and if this must be tolerated in Churches and doth not weaken the purity of the Church why the other should not have some allowance I know not I know no understanding man that is against Toleration simply he that will allow none is not fit to live in these times but how far we are bound to Tolerate is a hard question To conclude Respon ad Apol. 168. I shall only see what our Mr. Norton a man who in some cases allows separation from a true Church and one that in the Congregational way is Theologus cum primis nobilis to that question how is secession to be made from a true Church answers thus 1. Not without due vse of all means to remove the impurities I am sure amongst those means this is one for these to bear witness against the scandalous members and labour in their places to get them removed regularly those then who never deal with any of these in a Church-way who will not bear witness against them to the Eldership but when their Pastor have asked them Will you prove against these c. answer No not they These use means well yet such separate Also how some of the Congregational Ministers who have had their hands in these separations have used all means when as they never went to the Ministers when they encouraged the people in their separation to speak with them I know not I have heard two Ministers of note complain of this unkind dealing 2. Not presently but they must use prudence patience and long-suffering Those Ministers and Churches who have found these in those who separated from them may testifie for them if they can 3. Without condemning of the Châ—â—ch but acknowledging it from whence this secession is made It were well if we could get so much from many of these to acknowledge any to be true Churches but such as are in their gathered as they call it way 4. Communion still continued with such a Church in things lawful Separation from the Lutheran * Yet Calovius in his answer to Jo. Crocius tells us we differ from them in ten Articles and above thirty Controversies p. 33. Churches he will not allow though we ought not to communicate with them in the Supper But our men 1. will not communicate with the Church from which they have separated at the Lords Supper where the doctrine is sound and the persons admitted as pure as any Congregational Church that I know of 2. No nor will some of them so much as hear the officer from whom they have separated though sound and godly but rather set up a Tradesman to prophesie in the absence of their own Minister and before they had a Minister exercise their gifts amongst themselves rather then hear their former Minister Certainly if some Congregational Churches in England be not guilty of Schism there was never any Schism in this world Thus I have given my reasons why I am not satisfied with all which the
if you have precepts given where the qualification of persons admitable to Church-fellowship are set down higher then I have set them down I would be thankful if any one would shew me them As for Rev. 21. I confess there is a golden Text but I think they draw a leaden argument from it to our Church-fellowship The fift Monarchy dreams have not as yet infatuated us that time is not yet come 6. Parochial bounding of Churches doth not detract from the truth of Churches it doth not hinder the purity much less the entity of a Church Vicinity of members is requisite for mutual inspection convenient meeting for celebration of ordinances but it adds nothing to the essence of a Church particular Churches must be bounded somewhere When the Law enjoyned men to keep their own parish Churches it was but to prevent disorder that people should be bound to attend ordinarily at that place and not run up and down where they listed If the Minister were godly the Law helped him and it is likely that this hath turned as well to the good of that people which else would not have so attended upon that Ministery which was powerful and searching if the Minister were ungodly it was but the denying of some outward accommodation in that parish and so remove to a godly Minister By vertue of the Law then every one did implicitely choose that Minister to be his where he came which as I said was as well for the good as the hurt of people if men had no mind to the Minister they might choose whither they would go into that Parish or not those who were godly in the Parish and had a good Minister they were not offended at the Law whence this Parochial bounding should be looked upon as such an Antichristian business I cannot imagine The chiefest inconveniency is by reason of the building of the place for Assembling in divers places upon the skirts of Towns yet in N. E. persons who live at farms three miles or more from the place of their Assembling in their own parish go constantly to that place when as they might joyn to another Church much neerer in another Town But let us see what we shall do when Parish bounds are broken down Vicinity is requisite this is agreed upon by all how then shall we agree upon Vicinity what will this Church call Vicinity I doubt if there be a rich person who would joyn and the Officer with members have a mind to him they will stretch vicinity very largely to fetch him in Some of our brethren oppose Parochial boundings because they are so great I doubt our brethren will not bring their Vicinity into a narrower compass nay we see how far they go for members should we go about to alter Parishes I think few would be pleased in the manner of doing it nor will agree upon Vicinity wherefore I think we had better bear with some inconveniences then while we seek to mend them create worse 7. In reducing of Churches to purity the Minister cannot do it alone he must know the members impurity it must be proved to him by witnesses let Churches be gathered or whatever you call them this must be done before persons can be excommunicated But how do these members who find fault with Ministers do this One who came to his Minister and was very urgent to have him thus seclude wicked persons from the Sacraments when the Minister asked him whether he would come and bear witness against them answered so he might leave himself not worth a groat but yet could separate from his Minister is this right These things premised now to an Argument Arg. 1. Where there are the essential causes of a Church matter and form there is a true Church But in many Parochial Congregations of England there are the essential causes of a Church Ergo many Parochial congregations in England are true Churches The Major deny who can Positis causis essentialibus ponitur effectus For the Minor I prove that thus Where there are persons sound in the faith and visibly conformable to the rules of the Gospel in their practice there is the matter of a Church Where these persons doe consent together to worship God in all his ordinances Mr. Burroughs saith all the ordinances so far as they know with Officers duely qualified and for substance orderly called there is the form of a Church But thus it is in many Parochial congregations in England For the matter I suppose we will not deny it there are such for visible appearance as true as those that are in congregational Churches If it be asked How many Parishes are there that have such persons sufficient in number to make a Church That is none of my question to answer but this I can say according to our brethrens practice who make eight or fewer to be sufficient to the first founding of a Church there will be divers Parishes found to have that number without question For the form I have put in enough the covenanting or consenting our brethren make the form But I have put in the Officer and so make it an Organical Church For the Officer if the quarrel be with his qualification I think none dare deny but for personal graces and Ministerial abilities there are abundance such Ministers in several Parishes For their call elected by the people and ordained by a Presbyterie very solemnly If the Episcopal ordination be questioned I have answered to it before as also in my Book against the Separation however I think there is as much cause to question their ordination who are ordained by the people when Elders were present or with others onely praying after election as there is to question Ordination by a Bishop and his Clergy But what doe our brethren cavilling against that when they have Election which is the essence of the call as themselves affirm I think God hath witnessed for them that they were true Ministers in going forth with them and giving such successe to their Ministry as I think our congregational brethren have not found since they came to question and cast off Episcopal Ordination if any doe so I doubt if the congregational Ministers had no more members of their Churches then they have converted since they have so much cried down Parishes and Episcopal Ordination they would have very thin Churches I doe not think the Lord did it therefore because of their Episcopal Ordination yet I think the Lords appearing so much in those days over now he doth in converting-work should teach us much tenderness in these dayes and not to walk so highly as some doe If the objection be about the consenting the election of the people declare it explicitely and their constant attendance upon such a Minister in all the ordinances of God declares their consent implicitely No Congregational Divine makes the form of a Church to consist in the expliciteness of a covenant but affirm that an implicite covenant preserves the
render the word Et constituerunt The same verb and in the same conjugation which Paul useth 1 Tit. 5. But if it were the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which did constitute Officers certainly Paul needed not to have left Titus there to doe that which they could doe without him and did though he were there to leave Titus onely to contribute an Adjunct when the people have given the Essence I could never receive this conceit The Arabick also refers the Act to the Apostles Et designarunt eis manibus suis in singulis Ecclesiis Presbyteros And by this the Imposition o◠hands is plainly implyed c. All things considered I do much more question whether any thing can be brought from this word to prove popular Election then I doe believe popular Election constitutes a Minister To have a Minister imposed upon godly people or a true Visible Church without their consent I look on it as great tyranny This was not the primitive practice Ep. ad Cor. p 57. for Clemens saith when the Apostles or other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no mention made of the Fraternity doing it did constitute Elders he adds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet I do not think that the people elect tanquam ex authoritate Electio non cogit they doe eligere non per jurisdictionem sed per subjectionem saith Ames This power the people have that no man shal have power over them unlesse they consent to subject unto him but what is this to their having so much power over him as to make him a Minister To be their Minister and to be a Minister are two things If no Authority be put forth in the peoples Election there is none put forth in Ordination sure if it be but an Adjunct certainly the Adjunct should most properly belong to them who give the Essence then Ministers come into Office without any Authoritative Act put forth fasting and prayer common to all Christians which they make Ordination is no Act of Authority It is strange Doctrine to me that a Minister should be a Minister onely in that congregation which elected him Mr Noyes tells us That the Elders of one Church have power to act in all Churches upon mtreaty P 48. and yet tells us the power of the Keyes is originally and essentially in the body of the members that they give the Keys p. 10. p. 11. that Election is the Essence of the Call which doctrine I cannot yet receive I question not but every true Minister bears relation to the Church Catholick were now the Catholick Church reduced to six particular Churches if members came to my congregation out of all those six I would not question to administer the Lords Supper to them all at one time and this our brethren deny not but why must I perform an official act to them to whom I bear no relation If I should goe with my people into any one of these six congregations then I hope I may administer there also this I suppose may be allowed for why may not I as well administer there as in my own place I hope they will not tye up Churches to places so as the place makes the difference I know what men argue from the Analogy of a Mayor in a Corporation which is no proof but only illustration and if our brethren can find out that Christ hath one Catholick Civil Common-wealth which makes up his body as we can find he hath a Catholick Church which is his body then the Analogy will have more force But I must break off from this discourse though I had something more to have said to this I doubt not but in some cases a man may be Ordained and Authoritatively sent forth to preach the Gospel and baptize without popular election preceding What Athanasius did with Frumentius is well known and so others whom I spare to name If this be true Loc. Com. p. 199. then popular election gives not the Essence Musculus though he had pleaded for that priviledge of the people in the Apostolical Primitive Churches yet again shews that that custome cannot be profitable to the Churches now and therefore in their Churches the people did not elect So much for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I know no other Texts that can be brought for popular election Our brethren doe allow Ordination besides Election but whether that be Ordination which they call Ordination is the question being I am now upon the Text and think it is that which they build upon for I know no other I will briefly examine and so return to this Text no more 1. It is true that when a Minister is to be ordained the Church doth solemnly seek the Lord by fasting and prayer for his grace and blessing upon the person to be ordained which shews the weight of the office and of Ordination to it but commending here doth not relate to their fasting and prayer but is distinct Fasting and prayer relates to their Ordination Cor. a Lap. saith here is a Histerologia Oratio enim jejunium praemissum fuit ordinationi presbyterorum Intex ut in Cap. 13. v. 2 3. Therefore Luke useth the Aorist 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. postquam orassent q.d. cum post orationem jejunium constituissent eis Presbyteros Nor is that the main business of Ordination to commend a man to God this Text will not force it as in the next I shall clear 〈…〉 ordinationis proprius est collatio protestatis docendi sacramenta administrandi ad illum ordinatio per se dirigitur De Minis Eccles p. 182. eundemque perpetuo infallibiliter consequitur saith Gerhard with whom agrees the stream of Divines and the practise of the Churches in N. England For though a man may teach for the trial of his gifts in order to office half a year a whole year yet he administers no Sacraments till he be ordained Sepa Exa p. 54 55. I have spoken more to this in my Book against the separation 2. This Text serves not our brethrens turns for if so then All those whom the Apostles here commended to God the Apostles ordained But the Apostles did not ordain all those whom they commended to God ergo ordination is not a commending c. The major is plain for Definitio Definitum reciprocantur Our brethren will say but the commending of persons chosen c. will be ordination by this Text. No for the last words shew whom they commended The Believing Disciples The whole Churches they commended them to God in whom they had believed Now believing is not the next cause of a persons being ordained but they did commend them to God quatenus believers The method of Ordination is thus 1. A Believer 2. A Person gifted 3. A Person elected in constituted Churches 4. Ordained Women did believe and they were commended to God as well as any other So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
Chapter we may be satisfied but no where else that I know of These things satisfie me with the judgement of the Church which constantly hath maintained that here were Officers ordained I know much dispute there hath been and is whether this Deacon might not preach and baptize but that is none of my question if here were the ordination of an Officer it serves my turn When I had done casting my eye accidentally upon Bucanus P. 494. Loc. Com. I found him speaking my thoughts and something more who gave me much content in opening the Deacons Office Thus then Deacons come into their office Thus Timothy also came into his office 1 Tim. 4.14 so it is generally understood Out of his Epistles I shall gather more in the next argument Whether Paul and Barnabas were ordained in Acts 13.2 3. is a great question some deny it many affirm it if they were it puts much honour upon that Ordinance and shews more the necessity of this ordinance in men coming to the Ministry Let us see first who they are that own this to be ordination some I have met with and others may know more of this judgement I finde Chrysostome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 observe the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. with whom agree others of the Greek Fathers Thus Calvin Inst l. 4. c. 3. s 14. Chemnitius Zanchy Polanus Gualter Officio divinitus simul ab ecclesiâ commislo saith he upon the Text Aretius who infists upon it largely Gerhard Maccovius Malcolmus Waltherus who reconciles this with Gal. 1.1 Ravanel Diodati Our English Annotations Ainsworth upon Numb 8.10 The Synod of N. England who quote this Text to prove Ministers ought to be ordained and that with Imposition of hands Of the Popish party I could name more but I spare them These men are so worthy that their judgement is not easily to be slighted But we have harder work in writing in our days then others had heretofore when the quotation of men was proof sufficient but this will not now serve the turn Thus then Positâ definitione ponitur Definitum But here Ponitur Definitio Ordinationis Ergo. The Papists who make Ordination a Sacrament properly so called contend about the matter for the form they are all agreed that the form Consistit in verbis quibus sufficienter significatur traditio potestatis saith Valen. To the same purpose speaks Bellarm. Convenit inter omnes materiam esse aliquod signum sensibile formam autem esse verba quae dicuntur dum illud signum exhibetur But whether the calix patina cum pane vino be the matter and those words then spoken Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium c. be the form as Valen. and his party or whether the Imposition of hands with these words Accipe potestatem remittendi peccata do compleat the Act so as a man is not ordained till this be done as Bellarm and his party here they are divided Bellarm. will have Imposition of hands to be essential to the Sacrament because else saith he we cannot convince the Hereticks that Ordination is a Sacrament properly so called because we cannot demonstrate in the Scripture any other external symbole of this Sacrament As for the word Sacrament in their sense their cup platter c. we lay them by so for their words which they make the form we lay them by yet I perceive our Brethren do contend for some words which should be used at the laying on the hands of the Eldership For my part I am loth to engage further then I have clear Scripture to back me or necessary consequence from it If we take Ordination at large as this Scripture holds it out and other agree with it it may be thus described Ordination is the separation of a person called to the work of the Ministry by persons in office with fasting prayer and Imposition of hands Thus far this Text will warrant us and it is the fullest that any one Text will afford us Let us see how this sutes with other Scriptures Rom. 1.1 Paul tells the Romans he was called to be an Apostle separated unto the Gospel of God Here is my Authority I do not run before I was sent But when was this done and how this done look to my Text and I doubt not but these Texts answer each to other Separate me Paul and Barnabas for the worke whereunto I have called them v. 2. I have called do you then separate both the words we find here It seems they were not to seek what it was to separate how to go about it they had been acquainted with that work before This phrase separate is the old phrase the Lord used before in his ordaining of old Officers Numb 8.14 Thus shalt thou separate the Levites c. thus how among other things The children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites It was so here with Paul So Deut. 10.8 At that time the Lord separated the Tribe of Levi. So Numb 16.9 a full place The Lord separated Israel from other Nations this was a high favour but in Israel the Lord made another separation and this was higher honour still Seemeth it but a small thing unto you that the God of Israel hath separated you c. Thus we see the Lord keeps the old phrase A person called Paul and Barnabas were so by God immediately and these persons commanded from God immediately to separate to ordain them whence well might Paul say Gal. 1.1 was no Apostle by man For all is here by immediate command from God whatever was done about them was by immediate revelation Whence he saith v. 4. So they being sent forth by the Holy Ghost yet they prayed fasted and imposed hands Waltherus Harmo p. 490. speaks more to the clearing of this doubt As Paul then and Barnabas were called immediately so in constituted Churches Ministers are elected By Persons in Office Not every office no mention made â—here of Ruling Elders or Deacons but Teachers at the lowest If the people should claim this power as some do for the people in Numb 8. did impose hands on the Levites I have answered to this Sepa Exam. p. 70 71. I add but this The Apostles did translate Imposition of hands from the old Testament to the New in the Ordination of Ministers but for the peoples imposition of hands we find no such thing With prayer fasting imposition c. Here a question may be moved Whether fasting and prayer did properly belong to the essence of Ordination or whether as in other Ordinances we pray before the Administration of the Ordinance so here was praying for the Lord's grace and blessing upon the person to be ordained but ordination for the essence a distinct thing Some I suppose make it the whole essence their Acts declare it they do nothing else unless preach and others look on imposition of hands but as a common thing among the Jews when they would wish one
Ministers who know them besides being illiterate and persons who neither are ordained nor will be ordained nor I think would sober Ministers ever ordain them These things are not secret but more publikely spoken off then my Book can publish whence their friends are grieved their enemies rejoyce having cause they think to open their mouths against them and to vilifie Reformation besides the hinderance of union in the Churches CHAP. II. Concerning Imposition of hands in Ordination ALthough our Divines have all I think unless a few risen up in our days agreed in the necessity of Ordination to a Minister yet they have not all had the same thoughts about Imposition of hands as if it were necessary to Ordination Most have agreed in this that though they look on it as a Ceremony an Adjunct yet it ought to be practised because of the Apostolical examples Our Congregational Brethen in Essex cast it away and some cause I have to stand upon it because I therefore refused Ordination by them because they would not Impose hands and so it was the longer before I could be Ordained If I did refuse upon insufficient grounds I am sure the grounds which were given to me for the contrary were very insufficient I lost the papers but met with another manner of Antagonist shortly after Mr. Noyes a reverend Divine and my dear friend of N. England who hath said more against it then I have as yet heard from these what any body else have said against it in writing I know not unless the Author of the Diatribe c. whom that worthy Divine Doctor Seaman hath answered I cast my eye upon it long since but do not now remember any thing Pro or Con what there is said or in any other man What then I can gather from Scripture and Reason I shall humbly offer to the Reader and to Mr. Noyes in answer to what he hath said against it Not many years since Humane Ceremonies added to the worship of God how much trouble and misery they added to the Church we have not yet forgot Men wrote and spake so far as they dared and suffered by reason of them Mens wits are now busied as much in throwing out of God's worship as theirs were in adding why then we may not now stand up in desence of God's Ceremonies if this be but a Ceremony as they opposed Mens Ceremonies I know not Come then to Imposition c. Let us hear a little what other men have said about it And first for great Calvin whom I hear alledged against Imposition which I a little wondered at knowing Calvin had spoken sufficiently for it 1. Instit l. 4. c. 3. s 16. Licet nullum extet certum praeceptum de manuum Impositione quia tamen fuisse in perpetuo usu Apostolis videmus illa tam accurata eorum observatio prae cepti vice nobis esse debet 2. Again Impositionem manuum L. 4. c. 14. s 20. qua Ecclesia Ministri in suum munus initiarentur non invitus patior vocari Sacramentum 3. Again L. 4. c. 2. s 16. Et certè utile est ejusmodi symbolo Ministerii dignitatem populo commendari c. praeterea non erit inane signum si in germanam suam originem restitutum fuerit nam si nihil frustra spiritus Dei in Ecclesia Dei instituit hanc ceremoniam cum ab eo profecta sit sentiemus non esse inutilem modo in superstitiosum usum nou vertatur See him again l. 4. c. 19. s 31. Calvins judgment is clear with his Reasons for it Chemnitius giving us the judgment of the Lutheran Churches saith Exam. Concil Trid. p. 221. Nec manuum Impositionem vocare Sacramentum gravabimur I omit Austin who called it so long before they were born in a large sense not the Popish sense Nos uno verbo dicimus si per Sacramentum jusjurandum Loc. Com. p. 321. religiosam obstrictionem intelligunt sit Ordo ipsorum per me licet Sacramentum quale veteribus erat Sacramentum militare saith Musculus Walaeus saith Loc. Com. l. 1. p. 473. In all the Confessions of their Churches except one or two it was required and because the Apostles alwayes used it and the Apostle gives that precept to Tim. 5.22 Not to lay on hands suddenly we ought not to omit it because in that negative an affirmative is contained that he should Impose on worthy persons where since by a Synecdoche it is taken for the election of a Pastor certè pro ritu vel parte essentiali habenda est Thus he From the same charge to Timothy Sur. ch Dis p. 2. p. 74. Mr. Hooker saith he is willing to follow the rode when he hath no constraining reason to goe aside It seems this Reverend man knew no cause why Imposition should be laid aside The Synod of New England say Platf ch Dis c. 9. Church-Officers ought to be Ordained with Imposition of hands Here then we have the Fathers Papists Lutherans Calvinists Episcopal Classical Congregational men the Churches generally since the Apostles dayes Imposing hands in Ordination We must have strong reasons as Mr. Hooker saith to lead us afide from these Churches Custome of the Churches Paul uses to make something of 1 Cor. 11. I think so should we having especially such Scripture-precedents going before them I look upon their practice as very weighty But I come to argument laying down first my Position Imposition of hands ought to be used in Ordination Arg. 1. That form of Ordination which cometh neerest to the Gospel-pattern ought to be used But Imposition of hands in Ordination is that form which cometh neerest to the Gospel-pattern ergo Imposition of hands in Ordination ought to be used The major I suppose cannot well be denied especially by those who in the Bishops days use to cry out so much All things must be made according to the pattern in the Mount and why now I pray must not things be done according to the pattern of the Gospel what do you make of it that which you may follow or let alone as you please what is said against this I shall meet with anon For the minors bring us forth those rules or examples which shew that men may be ordained or were ordained without Imposition of hands that Church-Officers were ordained with Imposition the Texts are known as before mentioned Arg. 2. If the Gospel expresseth the whole Ordinance of Ordination by Imposition of hands then Imposition of hands in Ordination ought to be used But the Antecedent is true Ergo the Consequent is true The Consequence is clear for why should the Apostle mention that which is but needless or at least but indifferent to set out an ordinance by Obj. But it is said Obj. This was no more then what Paul saith at another time for this cause I bow my knee c. meaning prayer A. 1. Be it so yet this hinders not Sol. for
confess 4. But put case it were so yet this hinders not his Associating with our Brethren who desire him but to Associate where they do separate the precious from the vile by Discipline Since then this separation was Doctrinal as all Divines upon the Text acknowledge then whether the Prebyterial Brethren very many of them at least do not separate as well as himself I desire my Brother to consider For the last words which he also used Let them return to thee but return not thou unto them Doth my Brother indeed parallel our Associated Brethren with those who are meant by them Let the Presbyterial Brethren return to the Congregational not they to them I should not have dared to have made such a parallel I shall only put this Brother in mind what he then said against those who dare depart from standing Commandments and desire him to consider whether he never read of a standing to use his own words Commandment repeated again and again that we should follow the things which make for peace and whether he with our Brethren who stand off have answered that Commandment sober Congregational men shall judge Let me leave with our Brethren a few lines which I received a few weaks since from that learned and godly Divine Mr. Norton Teacher of the Church in Boston in N. England in a Letter to me The Association you mention amongst the Ministers we much rejoyce in I never thought it better then human but oftentimes worse that the Presbyterian and Congregational men cannot close together in Brotherly Communion The power of godliness interest us in the affections of the godly above the notions of either of them considered apart therefrom I believe the Congregational way to be the truth yet I think better of many Presbyterians then of many Congregational men 'T is no wonder if Independents are unruly for I distinguish between Independents and Congregational men or rather such call themselves as they please that will not acknowledge the rule of the Presbytery and the order of Councils Thus far this reverend and great Divine I am sure our Association reaches no higher then a Council As for our Brethren who will not Associate till they see the Civil Magistrate set his stamp of Authority upon this way of Association whatever the late Instrument made by the Parliament allows us though they see Anabaptists and Congregational Churches and other Associated Counties to exercise Discipline without any scruple though they would quarrel with an Erastian Magistrate that should deny any such power to belong to Churches yea though some of these can suspend from the Lord's Supper whom they please we must leave these to their own wisedom and desire them to convince the Magistrate so that he may be able to see clearly that the government of the Church is either Episcopal Classical or Congregational and so stablish one or if the Magistrate be not so clear in either but yet willing to favour any of these the persons being godly and peaceable as he doth then let these Brethren consider whether the want of Church-Discipline be a fault to be charged most upon the Magistrate or upon themselves To return to you then Fathers and Brethren in a few words Hitherto God hath brought us the worke we have engaged in is to most if not all of us new and such a work as many of those who have been exercised in it have so often miscarried in that the Ordinance of Discipline hath suffered much dishonour and that which adds to the difficulty we set to it in such times wherein the Ministry is so much reviled by Sectaries and as to this work much contemned by the Gentry and our Episcopal Divines one of which and whom I honour said to me That we were no more fit to manage the government of the Church of England then David Saul 's Armour We boast not of our fitness but for the government of the Church by such Bishops though I highly reverence some of them they have no such cause to boast as witness the Churches they have left us miserably overgrown with ignorance and profanness had we so many hundreds or thousands of pounds per annum such honour and regal power to stick to us as had they I hope the Churches might be governed as well as they were before and be purged a little from that ignorance and profaneness which now we find them in But we must go to our work without Saul's Armour I am sensible how much wisedom and prudence this work calls for all my comfort is Christ of God is made to us wisedom c. 1 Cor. 1. I take care for nothing but for Faith Humility and Prayer to fetch this wisedom from our King and Head and leave the success to him who did institute this Ordinance Your fellow labourer in the worke of the Gospel GILES FIRMIN Shalford 2. of the 2. Month 1658. An Advertisement of two Books lately published by this Author Mr. Giles Firmin Viz. 1. Stablishing against Shaking being a discovery of the Quakers 2. The Power of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion vindicated and the extent of it determined By Mr. Stephen Marshall published by his own Copy since his death with notes upon it CHAP. I. A brief and friendly examination of Dr. Owen 's discovery of the Nature of Schism SEveral definitions of Schism both ancient and modern the Doctor recites none of which give him content Austin he saith suited his definition directly to the cause he had in hand against the Donatists for the rest they do not satisfie him then offers his definition being the definition which agrees with Scripture to which he appeals and esteems this appeal to be necessary and reasonable I am of the Doctor 's mind and wish we had kept there all this time for while some men made Providence their Bible others make Antiquity theirs they have made us by woful experience know the evil effects of walking by such Canons Providences antiquity are excellent things to confirm us when they have clear Scriptures stand before them as Figures before Cyphers and if men would reduâ—e their actions and disputes to this Head by which one day we shal be judged Rom. 2. and not by Providences or Antiquity as we might have spared many of our troubles so we might sooner come to the closing up of our breaches which I perceive is one part of the Doctors aim but I can hardly believe will ever effect the Cure For suppose he can convince men that this separation from Churches is not Schism in the precise notion as he often mentions of Scripture yet if they apprehend it to be something else as bad and it may be worse his book will prove ineffectual to the healing of our wounds Thus then he defines Schisin p. 51 52. It is a causelesse difference or division amongst the members of any particular Church that meet together or ought so to do for the worship of God and
true nature of the Church So Mr. Hooker Sur. Ch. Dis part 1. pag. 47 48. So Mr. Norton Resp ad Apol. p. 22 28. So the Synod of new-New-England Cap. 4. S. 4. Arg. 2. If there be as much for substance in many Parochial congregations as there was in Corinth to make it a true Church then many Parochial congregations are true Churches But the Antecedent is true Ergo the Consequent is true The Consequence is clear for the Church of Corinth was a true Church I hope For the Antecedent 1. It 's true we have not many preaching officers in one Parish as had that Church which I conceive did not all meet in the same place for Church-worship but in divers 2. Nor have we extraordinary Prophets as were in that Church though our brethren strangely make those a proof for their private members Prophesying as they call it yea and are so highly carried in their notions that if their Pastor be absent though there be another Minister preach in the Town they will not go to hear him but a Tradesman must Prophesie what this implies who seeth not if a Pastor be dead and the people goe to another congregation the Pastor whereof is of their own principles these have been charged by one of our Essex Independent Ministers with irregular walking for not staying at home and Prophesying a sin certainly against the eleventh commandement 3. Nor have we other extraordinary gifts as that Church had 4. Nor have we men ordained by the Apostles 5. Nor called by the Apostles for if these things doe weaken my argument then they doe as well cut off the congregational Churches to be true Churches But if the Church of Corinth had persons called by the Word some whereof were real Saints and some onely visible so have we If they had persons Officers who held out the faith of the Gospel in their teaching soundly so have we as sound as they did or could doe if not sounder such as build not hay nor stubble c. If they had the Ordinances of Christ so have we If they consented to worship God c. so doe ours These are the Essentials of that Church The Essence is perpetually the same but Vnaquaeque res vera dicitur a sua naturâ essentiâ If we have corrupt and erroneous members so had they Ours debarr'd suspended from the Lords Table a great part of Church-discipline but that their corrupt members were so I think will not easily be proved a great fault in the Officers who it seemes did not regard discipline scarce at all 2 Cor. 12.20 21. 13.2 Paul threatens that he will not spare Our Churches come to this by the oppression of the Hierarchy the Ministers else would have exercised Discipline but those had none to overtop them and yet were negligent How to get their Churches purer the Ministry find it hard to excommunicate a multitude our congregational brethren say no to separate from the rest our classical brethren are not clear they quote the Text 2 Cor. 10.8 Their authority is given for edification not destruction They must doe what they can by degrees which they are resolved upon and deserve to be encouraged by all More Arguments I could give as from the nullity of all the Ordinances which else must follow Also I wonder whether our congregational Ministers were converted in Parochial or congregational Churches But I forbear Hence then that congregational brethren may associate with the classical to me there is no question though my practice is something different from the classical brethren yet what they allow is so candid that I am rather thankful to them that they are so willing to associate with me That we way hold communion with a Church so far as we are intangled in no sin I think was never denied but so may we with the classical brethren For what though they baptize all and all of them do not though some do and more endeavour it bring their people to an explicite engagement yet they desire us not to have communion with all their members but with their compleat members i. e. those whom they admit to all Ordinances and I am sure those according to the rules drawn up would have gone for good Church-members in the Apostles days and I think should now so that we are called to associate onely with those who are as good members as our own As for their Baptizing of the Infants of such whom they debar from the Lords table though their arguments doe not convince men no not good Mr. Blake that man who now I hear is with God if he had I would have poofessed it to the world I doe more admire to see what answers so learned a man gives but that I have professed in my Epistle to the Reader that I would meddle no more with the question I find it very easie to take off at least in my apprehension what he hath said had but he cast the major proposition in p. 97. thus which he knew was my Scope Such as for manifest unworthiness de jure ought and de facto are debarr'd from the Lords Table c. To this I have spoken before Then see how his answer from Infants takes me off but I shall adde no more Now though he hath not satisfied me yet I look on the Arguments as more valid to prove the Infants of those scandalous persons should be baptized then are their arguments who cast out the Infants of repenting and believing parents from Baptism and the Church yet these our congregational brethren make no scruple to communicate with and to have such members in their Churches Are all the members of congregational Churches such as they ought to be visibly I doubt it Some are as offensive as many in Parochial Churches Should we therefore refuse communion one with another because of such Would Paul have done it at Corinth As for taking members out of other Parishes which our brethren stand upon so stiffely and without which there will be no Association this hath been the old breaking principle and resolved it seems they are to hold it In what cases and upon what conditions it shall be allowed our classical brethren have declared and I think sufficiently to give a heart that loves peace satisfaction For my own part I care not if the thing be yielded I think I might make as good a shift as another and have had tentations strong this way but I did never yet take up such a practice not out of any conscience to the Parish bounds but because I have to be that unworthy principle which hath chiefly kindled the fire in this poor Church Should I have done it because I looked on my way more pure then my neighbour-Ministers I knew the impurity of my own heart and looked on my Neighbour-Minister as more godly if I should think more highly of my own parts I knew my own weaknesse and might justly fear lest God should blast the little
otherwise qualified and yield but to what is necessary to a Church-state in which men though of different perswasions other wayes yet all agree be they Episcopal Classical or Congregational unlesse some of these last make an explicite covenant the form of the Church which I see some of our brethren do here in England Else what means that passage of a brother But it will by us be expected satis pro imperio that you leave the brethren and godly yet ungathered free who have voluntarily come under no engagement explicitely with your Parish ways since the fall of Prelacie I could quote another who carries it more closely Then it seems all those Christians who before this walked with their godly Pastors in constant attendance upon and subjection to all Ordinances must now come under an explicite covenant or what For my part I said before it was not any conscience to Parish bounds which hath kept me from receiving of persons from other Parishes but desire of peace But if men will refuse terms of peace so drawn up with so much tenderness as I think can well be desired I shall receive those who shall desire to joyn with me and resign them up again when there comes a man who will embrace peace with his brethren I do not look upon our rules binding me further then our Associations CHAP. III. Of Association of Churches OUr Brethren in Cumberland with whom our Brethren in Essex agree conceive That in the exercise of Discipline Assoc Cumb. p. 3. it is not only the most safe course but also most conducing to brotherly union and satisfaction that particular Churches carry on as much of their work with joynt and mutual assistance as they can with conveniencie and edification and as little as may be to stand distinctly by themselves and apart from each other This some of our congregational brethren look upon as cutting off congregational liberty by the middle But I conceive not so they put in the words Conveniencie and Edification nor is their intent so far as I apprehend to null the power of particular Churches but onely to be assistant to each other in the wise managing of so great an Ordinance and Blessed be God say I. that such Assistance may be had That Church-Discipline is an Institution of Christ I doe not at all question That the cutting off a member from a Church is a thing of great weight I do not also question Chirurgeons though able when they come to the Amputation of a natural member love to call in all the help they can And as certain I am that through the abuse and ill maniging of this Solemn Ordinance it hath almost lost its glory This hath not been the fault of the Pope and the Hierarchy but I wish I could say that some congregational Churches had not exposed it to contempt through their indiscreet carriages in this Ordinance I know of more then two or three of these Churches in which this fault will be found In Ipswich in N. E. where those two worthy men Mr. Nathaniel Rogers Pastor and Mr. Norton Teacher had the managing of this Ordinance they carried on the work with so much prudence and long-suffering the cause did permit it before they came to the execution of it and with so much Majesty and Terrour when they came to the Sentence that the hearts of all the members I think were struck with fear and many eyes could not but let drop tears the Ordinance had something of the majesty of the Ordainer in it If we could carry on this Ordinance thus we might recover the glory of it What particular Churches may do when no Assistance can be had is one thing what they ought to doe when it may be had is another Doctor Ames is a man who favours particular Churches enough yet saith Medul C. 39. S. 27. Ecclesiae tamen particulares ut earum communio postulat naturae lumen aequitas regularum exemplorum Scripturae docent possunt ac saepissimè etiam debent Confaederationem aut Consociationem mutuam inter se inire in Classibus Synodis ut communi consensu subsidio mutuo utantur quantum commodè fieri potest in iis praesertim quae sunt majoris momenti c. Furthermore because the brethren stand so much upon the power of particular Churches I desire as I have divers years professed my dissatisfaction satisfaction in this point they would please to clear it from the N. T. where they find such particular Churches as ours are in these small Villages consisting of one Pastor and a few members being so near to other Churches as ours are and might unite if they would yet that such particular Churches kept themselves distinct and exercised all power within themselves without any dependance upon or consociation with other Churches If Scripture-examples be any thing to us I think they will not prove it I could never yet understand the reason of this consequence The Churches in Jerusalem in Rome in Corinth in Ephesus c. were independent for the execution of their power Ergo every particular Church in a small Village with one Pastor and a few members is independent for the execution of all Church-power I pray let us consider whether it will not more answer the Scripture-patterns to have divers of our smaller Villages to unite and make up but One Church though every Minister continue in his station taking care especially though not onely of those who live within his own Parish and to preach to these administer Sacraments exhort rebuke c. as he findeth cause But yet as to the exercise of all Church-power they are but One Church I dare say it will come neerer to the Scripture then doth the practice of the Churches as now they stand Our brethren yield the Church at Jerusalem to be but One Church but that this Church met alwaies for all Ordinances in one place who can imagine Though the Apostles went up to the Temple to Preach yet that was as well for the sake of others who came to the Temple and not yet converted the Apostles went to meet with them they did not goe to meet with the Apostles But we doe not read that they went thither to administer the Lords Supper Where they could find a room for five thousand persons to receive the Supper together I cannot tell to throw away ones reason in matters of practice is hard what a long time must they be administring though others did help yet they must have room to passe to and fro to carry the elements that at last we must have a vast place Most Divines that I read agree that by breaking of bread Acts 2.42 is meant the Lords Supper I doe not see that Beza hath many followers Why then by breaking of bread v. 46. should not be meant the Lords Supper also and their eating meat with gladness their Love-feasts which attended the Supper I see no reason though I know
well or pray for them or bless them after their manner they laid their hands on their heads and so imposition is now laid aside A. But stay a little 1. Are you certain that these prayed while they imposed hands in ordination I do not see how you will force it out of the Text nor can you force it from Acts 6.6 the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Aor 1. Whence the Syriack and Arabick Translations with which Piscator and others agree render the words and when they had prayed they laid hands plainly signifying that the prayers went before imposition nor I am sure will this Text help them for what I pray Did they impose hands all the while they fasted and prayed surely their armes were very weary to lie upon their heads a whole day whence it is more probable after that day was well spent in fasting and prayer then they imposed hands Then the Jews common custome doth not make imposition so silly a thing 2. In the consecration of the Levites and so of the Priests where we find Imposition we find no mention of prayer at all that I see much less at their Imposition if it were it was not the essence of the ordinance so far as I can learn I know divers of God's things must be esteemed as slight things if our heads must be judges But I think Tertul. spake excellently De paeniten Audaciam existimo de bono divini praecepti disputare neque enim quia bonum est idcirco auscultare debemus sed quia Deus praecepit c. 3. Ordination is the authorizing of a person to his work So the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Acts 6.3 plainly imply Both H. Stephens and Scapula agree that the word signifies * Constituo sic Constituere Regem vel Creare H. Stephens Ib. praeficio Hinc praefectus to put in authority to give rule to ordain a Ruler So these Texts Acts 7.10.27 Luc. 12.42 make it clear with other Texts H. Stephens Thes To. 1. p. 1768. quoting of these Texts Matth. c. 24. cap. 25. Acts 6. Luc. 12. where the word is used saith Quibus in locis non constituere solum sed praeficere verti potest Sur. Ch. Dis p. 3. p. 9. quidem aptiùs To this reverend Hooker agreeth The Lord Christ in his Kingly care conceived it necessary for the honour of the place and the execution of the work of a Deacon to appoint choise men and solemn Ordination to authorize them to the work c. But then how Prayer doth properly carry any thing of this nature in it I do not apprehend define prayer and see how it suits with authorizing nothing like it to beg and to authorize are not the same Unless we look on Ordination as the consecration of a man to God then a prayer may be part of the essence 4. If you ask me what is then truly I find it hard to answer it is plain to me it is not that which some cry up so and content themselves with dissenting from their brethren Imposition of hands I am sure is in the Text and must come into Ordination I find that the old Non-conformists speaking first of the election of a Minister in which the help of neighbouring Ministers must be required then add After that he is to be ordained by the laying on of the hands of the eldership with these words pronounced by the Minister thereunto appointed According to this lawful calling agreeable to the word of God whereby thou art chosen Pastor In the name of God stand thou charged with the Pastoral charge of this people over which the Holy Ghost hath made thee Overseer to govern the flock of God which he hath purchased with his blood When I read these words it made me call to mind the manner of the ordination of two Deacons in N. England about sixteen years fince which was the last ordination I saw or can remember any thing of my memory may fail me in some circumstance but as I do remember it was very little different from this The Pastor and the Teacher Imposed hands and then said We do in the name of Christ ordain thee N.N. Mat. 10.5 Mark 3.14 Luc. 9.2 Christ called ordained sent his Disciples forth to preach with power and authority he in his own name we in his name surely Christ used words suitable naming the person Deacon of this Church c. then what duties the Scripture puts upon the Deacon they framed into a handsome form when they had so done a short prayer they made their hands being still upon the Deacons head According to the form of the Non-conformists and the Church in N. England there is something appears like authorizing of a person to his work Now if the question be whether this be lawful or not where have we warrant for this that words were thus used in the primitive times is plain enough to those who read Hierom Ambrose Austin For Scripture this is plain though some of these words be not set down in the Scripture yet if there be an authorizing appointing Acts 6.3 a separating setting apart Acts 13. Some words must be spoken that must signifie so much and what breach of rule it is to say we ordain or set apart being the person is now setting apart the thing is doing For using the name of Christ I hope it is he who hath given Pastors and Teachers to his Church and from him doth the person now ordaining receive his power immediately It was not the Kingdom of Heaven gave Peter the keys I do not say the form of Ordination lies in these words I am not willing to make that the formalis ratio of an ordinance which I have not expresse Scripture for I would not give my adversary so much advantage yet Reason tells that prayer alone or imposition of hands alone or both without words suitable cannot make an Ordination but Christ gave Peter immediately the keys of the Kingdom of heaven under his authority in his name they must act For the other words applying to the person ordaining what duties the Scriptures do charge such an office withal I hope this ought to be else it were a raw business So that by necessary consequence from Scripture I cannot well see how these things can be denied who can prove the Apostles did not use some such words though they be not set down A sending Rom. 10. Setting apart Appointing there must be and is then give us that which shew and expresse these words they were rational men and the Spirit purely rational which guided them whence we may well conceive something was spoken which answered the Scriptural expressions and so long as we hold to them I can see no harm but that rather ought to be Let others speak more rationally who oppose this and leaving out imposition of hands with these expressions shew what you do which doth carry in it the authorizing of
42. S. 41 42 50. 5. Carry the objection to our first Reformers where it should seem to have most strength what godly man is there who calls to mind Cranmer Latimer Hooper Ridly Philpot Bradford c. persons upon whom this objection would fall as to their own Ministry and their ordaining of others that would not be ashamed of himself should he null their Ministry and as some though this Divine abhors it I believe whose mouths are full of nothing but Antichristian call these Antichristian Ministers because ordained by Popish men Thou who callest these Antichristian Ministers rise up with them in the morning answer them in holiness go to the prisons with them and from thence to the stake and burn with them for the sake of Christ grant it they were ordained as the objection runs after inlightning they threw off Popery but their Ordination they held being no Popish Invention they go on still to preach baptize c. and ordain others Why not when these men were ordained by such men they had a Ministerial charge put upon them set apart to the work of the Ministry to dispense the things of Christ not of Mahomet or such like While they were in the dark they acted superstitiously afterwards more purely the corruptions they reformed the substance they kept and so our Divines now Will not the mercy of God pardon this and keep his sacrifice still in his Church I doubt not but he will The usual distinctions made 1. Between a person and his office 2. Between the substance of an ordinance and the accidental corruptions of it 3. Between what cometh through Rome being Christ's Institutions and what cometh from Rome being their own Inventions these distinctions will soon answer the objection 6. To. 2. p. 66. Learned Ames in his answer to Bellarmin urging this Ecclesia nullo modo potest esse sine Pastoribus Episcopis illi soli sunt veri Episcopi qui ab Apostolis per legitimam successionem Ordinationem descendisse ostenduntur c. speaks thus Ab Apostolis descenderunt ownes illi Pastores qui secundum canones Apostolicos in Scripturis traditos sunt in ecclesia constituti 4. Horum perpetua successio ab Apostolis Apostolicis viris non est necessariò ostendenda ex historiarum humanarum incertis testimoniis sed ex promissione illa Christi qua spospondit se per omnes aetates excitaturum operarios ad salutem electorum procurandam 5. Ordinandi potestas quoad jus cuique ecclesiae particulari est a Deo concessa Now for his last 6. Pastores hunc in modunt descendentes justo jure ordinatos habemus nos per Dei gratiam in omnibus ecclesiis ex voto nostro constitutis If any should take hold of the last words and suppose the Doctor means gathered Churches in which the people did ordain surely they wrong the Doctor much I wonder how many such Churches there were when the Doctor wrote neither had the Doctor answered Bellarmin who opposes all Ministers not ordained by the Roman power but had fallen off from Rome then the Doctor must own the ordination of the Reformed Ministers else he said nothing to the Jesuit I wish this Divine would answer Bellarmin better Doctor Ames uses to be esteemed of amongst Congregational men 7. For Rome being a true Church it is well known that Rome is more corrupt now in Doctrine then it was when our first Reformers fell off what difference there is between the former and latter School-men who knows not so that Rome is not now what it was then when our men had their Ordination from thence But may we not say as our brethren do of Parish-Congregations they will not deny the most understanding and sober of them but that in many parishes there are true Churches though they will not say the whole parish is a true Church according to the constitution So there is a true Church under the Romish jurisdiction though we do not say Rome is a true Church But what shall we say to such a people where the true God and the Trinity with the Attributes of God Jesus Christ in his divine and human nature the satisfaction and price of Christ as the meritorious cause of our justification * See Bellar de Justif l 1. c. 2. l. 2. c. 5. and pardon The Scriptures All the ordinances of God The doctrine of the Free-grace of God in opposition to mans proud free-will O excellent Bradwardin and Alvarez c. are owned defended believed where there are persons who walk according to Scripture rules in a great degree what shall we say is here no Church If our State have been rightly guided when they made the Act to Tolerate those who own One God Christ and Scriptures then a Church in Rome may be owned where these and many other truths are maintained more soundly then they will be by many of our tolerated persons yea it were well if all the members of Congregated Churches in England were as sound in those truths before mentioned and as holy in their conversations as are divers who live under Rome As for the Pope were it no more but bare government compared with the carriage of many Church-members I may say as Learned Mr. Norton of N. England in his Epistle to the General Court Is there no medium between Boniface and Morellius between Papacy and Anarchy Babylon and Babel c. both are naught the Peoples Anarchy as well as the Popes Tyranny and his Tyranny will not sooner deny a Church there as to Discipline then Anarchy doth in these members we see the effect how many men in England have turned Papists since they saw these carriages in the Churches But again What mean those Texts Come out of her my people Rev. 18.4 if there be no Church there The womans flying into the wilderness Rel. 12.6 take it as Mr. Mead or as Pareus yet it will argue a true Church to have been under Rome The witnesses prophesied 1260. days during the time of the womans being in the wilderness they were to feed her this must needs fall under the time before the Reformation begin it when you will More I could say but I think this is sufficient to prove that Ordination may and ought still to be continued notwithstanding Rome and that it is necessary to a Minister And since both these objections are made against me by Commissioners though I would hope more Disputandi gratiâ then being indeed opposite to my Thesis I say I would be glad to hope so and since this Script may possibly fall into some of their hands I wish humbly and I know I could have hundreds of godly Ministers to joyn with me they would please to take off that offence which I conceive is justly given to the most part of the godly Ministry in England when they see them let into the Ministry persons illiterate and some blame-worthy in their conversations as I am informed by godly