if they had said by what authority do or may we preach why do not doubt saies Christ My Father sent me and in his sending me he gave me Authority to send others As he sent me so I say or by that I had power to send you and give you power to send others He sent me to preach and ordain I send you to preach and ordain and do you send others to preach and ordain c. therefore we finde the Apostles executing their Commission accordingly along as occasion requires Paul sends Timothy Titus c. bidding them ordain and so successively to the end of the world which thing is most plain in the Text we are upon with regard to the persons ordaining and ordained Persons ordaining are Prophets and Teachers and persons ordained in this ordinary sending what power receive they they are sent 't is most apparent by an ordinary sending and what to do I pray you why to preach ver 5. and to ordain Elders in every Church c. 13. 23. clearly intimating that Ministers by their very Ordination have power to ordain as well as to preach 4. If a Presbytery have power to ordain then ordinary Ministers have power to ordain for a Presbytery is nothing but a Colledge-combination or company of Presbyters or ordinary Ministers But a Presbytery hath power to ordain for Timothy was ordained by the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Object But there were Apostles in these Presbyteries Answ What if this strengthens the Argument if rightly considered for if it was counted an act of the Presbytery when Apostles were there it appears that the Apostles joyning with ordinary Elders acted as Elders and not as Apostles or extraordinary Officers there being Apostles in the Presbytery that doeth ordain and yet Ordination is said to be done by the Presbytery cleerly shews that Ordination is a proper act of an ordinary Presbytery and not of Apostles as so and to make it out of doubt Ordination is defin'd in that text to be the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery But this hands me to another Argument 5. If ordinary Officers had a hand in Ordination in Apostles times much more and safer may they ordain now there are no extraordinary Officers among us The minor implied is already proved and for the consequence I say much more but how so why because à pari the people where there are no Ministers to do their work have power to Ordain by the warrant of necessity then much more ordinary Ministers may now there are none extraordinary left if they as so had a hand in Ordination by the like warrant and law of necessity And now that that confirms me about all doubting touching the Ordination of ordinary Officers is the practice of the primitive Churches next the Apostles and so down along through all ages and Churches to this day without interruption or contradiction unless by a few inconsiderable men as the Seekers are Thus we have shew'd what Gospel Ordination is and in Conclusion whose hands the power of ordaining lies it is a setting men apart with fasting and prayer and laying on of hands by preaching Elders which is indeed in every jot and title of it the very same with the Ordination allow'd and practic'd in the Church of England time out of mind The additional Ceremonies and harsh Oaths are taken away and we now have nothing left but pure Ordination according to the word so that the word doth allow us lawfull Ministers because we have what the word requires to make us so Obj. To say we were ordained by Bishops is not worth the while for still there were ordinary Presbyters joyned with them and they themselves were no more but ordinary Presbyters though they thought themselves more their thought could not add one cubit to their stature whom neither Church nor State did ever declare to be a superior Order to other Presbyters But for this I refer you to Mr Seaman who hath given five Answers to this very Objection every one of which are so sound and solid that they are single and apart from each other abundantly satisfying See 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 85. Object But the great Objection yet remains viz. That we must needs be Antichristian because by a line of succession we descended from Antichrist this indeed is all they have to say against our Ministery Answ There are two knots in the line of succession of the Gospel-Ministery to our times The first is as it passeth the bounds of the Apostles daies and this the Seekers tie but we have already dissolved it The other is in the passage of it from the Church of Rome to the reformed Churches as it lies in this objection Four Arguments to cleer the succession of Ordination made by Brownists Anabaptists c. which I shall now untie I shall touch but four Arguments for I am in hast every of which experience hath proved very effectuall 1. I judge it a truth not to be question'd that there hath been certain Ministers of Christ in the world ever since there were any and more certain it is that there were true Ministers in the Church of Rome when our first Reformers began to think of breaking off from her for there was conversion there else God would not have had a people there and conversion is the work of sent Ministers Rom. 10. 14 15. now can any man in reason think that those that forsook both Rome and her harlotry and obey'd that known command of God and come out from Rome were not the best of the Ministers there and so by consequence the Ministers of Christ if there were any which may not be doubted Yea therefore remarkeable providence did seal to their Ministery immediately upon their leaving Rome being used by God to preach that doctrine and presse that command Come out of her my people and to prevail with a great number to follow their steps and leave the whore And when God by them had drawn his people into the wildernesse he did feed them there by the same Pastors Rev. 12. 6 and 14. which helps me to conclude that as the best of the members leaving Rome were owned by God for the true Church so the first of the Ministers leaving Rome were acknowledged by God for the true Ministery every man abiding in that calling wherein he was called whether members or Ministers 2. Again It is not so much as question'd but that our first reformers had an inward Call and if their outward call be question'd it is no great matter since both we and our adversaries agree in this that in such a strait and a case so extraordinary as that was the people are bound to chuse and call a Minister and theirs is valid no man doubts in such a case and therefore the Call of our first Reformers may not be questioned by our opponents any more untill they leave their Principles since it was confirmed by God and the
Anabaptisticall locusts which did so much mischief So here when Popery was not only lopt but even taken away branch and root and religion ceased to be in shew only and began to flourish in the power thereof how hath Satan laboured to blast the blâ—ssome of it with hellish fumâ—s and to eat away the very leaf thereof with infernall locusts Hence my soul hath strongly concluded That as when the Sun in its rising is darkened with mists it portâ—nds the fairest day So the Sun of the Gospel presently after his extraordinary bright rising in our Horizon being clouded puts us in an assured hope that after he mists are once dispelled it will break forth with a more dazeling lustre shining more and more unto the perfect day The second thing which refreshed me was a clear discovery of much good already wrought and working by these unlikely means of divisions How many sparks of truth have been beaten out by the collision even of flints How much precious flowre of wholsome doctrine hath been clean purged from its bran by the somewhat violent shaking thereof in the scarce of disputations It was observed as one good effect of the clashings of ancient times in that thereby the spirits of some Worthies then living were stirred up more fully to clear the truth The quarelling of the Anti-trinitarians quickned holy Augustines learned diligence and produced his Book de Trinitate And there hath not wanted an Augustine in our times who Dr Channell upon the same grounds hath done the like whose name is hereby made precious and will doubtlesse be ever mentioned with honour in the Churches Above all that most vexed question of Infant baptism upon what weak grounds hath it hitherto stood In opposing whereof Satan and his Instruments have been most forward and cunning and have concluded their objections irrefragable But how fully and unanswerably hath that truth been asserted as by others so chiefly by learned Baxter That God who commanded light to shine out of darknesse doth often produce the best effects out of the worst causes Adde to this that hereby many hypocrites unsound hollow-hearted professors have been clearly discovered even by their falling off to errour And those who are faithfull unto the Lord are made manifest Reade and compare 1 Cor. 11. 19. and 1 Joh. 2. 19. It is notoriously known to all that are not strangers in our English Israel how far the gangrene of errour hath prevailed and spread among us these seven years last past I meddle not with what I have heard or read of in other Counties as doubtless all have had their share the disease being Epidemicall these Western parts seem to have not the least infection We confess to our grief the seducers have had more advantages over us then possibly they could have otherwhere They found generally an ignorant and credulous people and therefore apt to be deceived and the rather because many flocks are without a shepheard or have a dumb dog that cannot bark or a blind watchman that cannot see or an hireling that fleeth when the wolf cometh Hence they have seduced hundreds unsetled thousands distracted and grieved all Their impudent audaciousness is such that they have interrupted and disturbed many Ministers in their publike exercise and it is ordinary to come with a gang of souldiers and prate on a tomb-stone while the Minister preacheth in a pulpit Nay they are grown to that height of confidence as to challenge learned Ministers to publike disputes but with what success I presume good Reader thou art able to say though I were silent Such a relation I am now to give thee of a dispute or rather Here are the signs and marks of an Apostle jangling had at Wiviliscombe in the County of Somerset May 4. 1652. between three or four young despised Ministers and the whole strength of the adversary I was an eye and ear witness of all or the most that passed and because I was present there yet none of the number of the Lecturers they desired me to write what I have to give thee some light in the following Sermon and Narrative I remember what Thales answered to one demanding How far Truth was distant from a lye As much 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith he as the eyes from the ears Meaning that the eye was a faithfull spectatour and authentique witness of things but the ear was open to lies and by it fictions and untruths had their entrance into the mind and therefore we should credit their relations whose seeing eyes had observed all passages but worthily suspect them who were only able to give a blinde testimony And therefore I challenge belief from all ingenious Readers I am not ignorant of the lying practises of Sectaries who cry Victoria among their injudicious proselytes and it may be have prepossessed thee with some untrue relation and therefore my Discourse shall bring thee into the place and with the help of the ensuing Narrative present to thy view the chief passages there First I must tell the occasion thereof Thou must know 1. Occasion good Reader that there is a weekly Lecture at Wiviliscombe aforesaid The Lecturers there unwilling that their meeting at the ordinary should be without fruit agreed among themselves that at set times they would for their own better satisfaction discusse some of the most at this day vexed questions in Divinity And because heresies grew apace and many of those parts fell away daily they thought it meet to acquaint their hearers therewith that all that would might resort to the place and hear them The first Question propounded some weeks before that the defendant might have some time to prepare himself was An justificatio sit uno actu simul semel Whether a beleever be actually justified from all his sins past present and to come at once namely upon the first act of faith which he puts forth This M r Fullwood the Author of the ensuing Sermon held in the Negative the rest opposed In the close they all professed their unanimous consent to what had been made appear to be truth At the next meeting was the Question about the lawfullness of Infant baptisme to be discussed which M r Wood the Minister of the place held in the Affirmative Their audâ—ence was now much increased even to a chamber-full In â—he end the major part signified their being fully satisfied about the lawfullness thereof But all were not or rather would not be satisfied And here were the first sparks out of which arose the after flame the fewel whereof was the intemperate heat and indâ—scretion of some who threatned to bring Collier to the next meeting if he were within An infamously famous Sectary many miles of the place and the courage of others who promised to defend that or any other Point against him The third Question which M r Howe held in the Affirmative was Whether the now Ministers of the Church of England be the Ministers of
extraordinarily wrought by discourse what 's that we speak of a usuall and ordinary work and 't is vainer to say we convert from sinne to duty and not to God this is against charity sense and reason first against charity to damn all those that have no other grace then what was received from the hand of our Ministery against sense for bloudy experience hath proved that faith to be true that was wrought by our Ministery in its subjects martyrdome and lastly against reason yea I may say all Scripture too as if duty was not in subordination to God However you cannot over throw the Scriputre which faith Faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of God preacht by a sent Minister which is usually fixt in a Church whence hath been written and sealed by all ages without contradiction that good rule Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus no ordinary salvation and therefore no conversion is usually had out of the Church which clearly concludes those Churches true where it is so The second outward blessing peculiar to a Church in 2. Speciall Providence Covenant with God is his speciall Providence for God hath doubtlesse a different care and providence over his garden the Church and the common wildernesse of the world now all his dealings with us since reform'd and separate from the Church of Rome hath plainly manifested his speciall gardencare and providence over us who can deny it not the Papists themselves who have seen and felt such signall testimonies of it in 88. powder-Treason c. Hath God long agone cast us off as Antichristian Churches and yet all the while still so remarkably kept us from the slavery of Antichrist what an insufferable contradiction is this nay more consider his Providences towards us of late years how long hath there been workings and stirrings in the bowels of this Land for a further reformation and distance from Rome and how much in order thereunto of late hath God wrought for us and all the while that we have been cleansing in the fire of affliction what wonderfull power and goodnesse hath he shewn us and is this the way that God useth to walk with a people divorc'd and cast away who can lift up his face against heaven and say it no rather such a manner of neglecting the Apostle speaks of if they be filthy let them be filthy still and if they be Antichristian let them be so still If not a giving them over to strong delusions to beleeve lyes The third and last blessing of the Covenant is outward 3. Salutation of all Churches too viz. the blessing of the people and Churches of God this I take to be a peculiar Church-blessing and sufficient to signifie a people in Covenant with and a Church of God which blessed be God we have in abundance who have the salutation of all the Churches which the Apostle sets down as matter of comfort for us Rom. 16. 16. Consider now Have not the Churches the keys of the Kingdom and power on earth to loose us from all those black aspersions you cast upon us have spirits judgement to try the spirits and not Churches judgement to try the Churches Shall he be counted a Publican and Heathen that sleights the judgement of a particular Church and not he much more that sleights the commendation of all the Churches Consider what you do beloved and lift not up so bold a face and voice against the verdict of all the reformed Churches in the world but if you will remember what was said You engage against the hand of remarkable Providence and have just cause to fear some strange judgement will fall from heaven to stop your mouths also as it hath other of our enemies before you CAP. IIII. That the Ministery of the Churches of England are the Ministery of Christ ARe our Churches Churches of God and true Churches Conclus 3. then hence it further follows that we conclude The Ministery of our Churches is the Ministery of God and the true Ministery for where can we think or imagin the Ministery of God the true Ministery should be but where the Churches of God the true Churches are and now had we nothing else to commend us unto you unless you recede from your own principles you cannot deny us a lawfull Ministery who have call and allowance from true Churches But I shall a little enlarge my Argument which shall yet be but one though of many parts and prove our Ministery thus unto you The Ministers of our Churches in England must needs be the The Arg. in generall to prove our Ministery lawful Ministers of Christ because they have as much to make and manifest them so to be as their very Adversaries themselves either have or allow and pretend unto and over and above what ever else their adversaries want and any other reasonable men may require more together lastly with what the very Scripture it self doth require or hath set and left as a canon or rule for the making and discovering the lawfull Gospel-Ministery by For the making good hereof I am to clear three things The parts of the Argument 1. That our Ministers have that to make and manifest them true Ministers that is agreeable to the principles of their very adversaries and this being found will easily carry us above contradiction 2. To the principles of all other indifferent men 3. To the principles and rules of the Word of God which two last being cleared and proved may serve I think for full satisfaction SECT I. First then let us see what these busie men have or rather would have that deny our Ministery and proclaim themselves 1. From principles of our adversaries to our people as the only lawfull Ministery in their publike preaching let us examine the manner and these men a little and we shall see their boasting vain for they have no more in pretence then we have really they acknowledge they have and plead for no more to give them a call then themselves acknowledge many of us have there is doubtlesse very much in this let us search it a little There are but four things left since the men for shame have laid down their claim and pretence to a call immediate Who lay claim to four things and extraordinary that all of their party together professe to have any influence upon their call and we shall finde them all four agreeing with us though scarce any of them lay claim to them all onely some of them to one and some to another 2. Of them are inward a secret impulse and gifts The other two are outward and are the choice and desire of the people Some of them say truth is like a fire in them they cannot hold sire in their breasts and not be burnt it will have vent 1. An inward impulse it burns in their bowels inflames their tongues they must declare what things they have heard and seen O brave is this your
due time administer'd to you in a true Much lesse Ministers Church by a lawfull Minister for the bare repeating of it by one that is neither a Minister nor member of the true Church O which way can you then become true Ministers or be allowed so to be by any lawful Church out this should seem to be according to your principles which is so agreeable to many of your practices I mean to be Preachers before you are Christians there are two fellows within our knowledge here within a few miles of this place that were publike preachers and one of them to my knowledge hath taken a Church a Parish a Pulpit upon him for a long time and yet were not rebaptiz'd though long before against Infant-baptism till about a moneth ago I do not affect to relate such stories but the passage was so full to my present purpose though so gross and ridiculous I could not hansomely leave it out Then no wonder if all Christian Churches and Christian Councils renounce and condemn such unworthy preachers as you are while we have the commendation allowance and liking of all the reformed Churches in the world and may commend our selves to you and to all people else without vainglory as judged worthy by the spirits of the Prophets whom all the Churches of Christ salute a thing not sleighted by modest men A third particular that men may justly look for in the Ministers 3. A being fixed and setled in the Church 1. In place of the Gospel is that they be fixt and setled and this may commend the Ministers of England above their opposers who are not fixt either with regard to place or time 1. With regard to place we are fixed stars in the hand of Christ having our station and place in the body of the Church every one knowing his particular people and flock over which he is made an over seer while since the Apostolicall times such a steering Ministery was never known in a setled Church not under persecution that could make a lawfull president for our wandering Comets these itinerary ubiquitarian opposers of ours Indeed a setled Church of Christ may sometimes appoint Note some able men whom with safety and prudence they may to preach the Gospel among the heathens or upon some notable exigence and want of Ministers in a true Church that might bear the name and perform the Office of Itinerary Ministers yet in such an extraordinary case as this these men should be sent by the Church and have their bounds and limits too But our Itineraries are without all order bounds and calling but what they allow to themselves and never remember themselves to be in a constituted Church wherein indeed though the labourers be few yet is there no such extraordinary need of such preachers as they 2. We are fit in regard of time while they in all ages that 2. Of time have known such men have risen and fallen risen and fallen risen and fallen like the proud inconstant waves of the sea in a storm raving raging roaring and dashing against the rock the Church the fixt and abiding foundation of our house untill they dashed themselves to pieces fiaming out their own shame and fretting and chasing themselves away into ayr and nothing while the Church of Christ and the setled Ministery hath stood as mount Sion that cannot be moved throughout both storms and ages The Scripture doth more then allude to the difference in hand describing them thus false prophess shall arise 1 Cor. 12. 28. but the lawfull Ministers of the Gospel thus He hath set them in the Church 1. False prophets shall arise i. actively arise Acts 3. 1 Joh. 4. 1. of their own accord raising up themselves while the true ones are passive such as the Lord God shall raise upto us Like to this is that other expression there are many false prophets gone out of their own accord running before they are sent while the true ones stay for Commission and mission for how shall they preach except they be sent yea and thrust out too sometimes 2. False prophets shall arise i. from beneath while the true ones with Paul have their call from Heaven and come down from above as Eliah's mantle and the gifts and blessings of Christs Ascension 3. False prophets shall arise i. of a sudden and unexpectedly while the true ones God hath set i. fixt posuit hath placed in the Church to the end they Eph. 4. Mat. 28. 20. may abide by the blessing of his presence and fellowship with them to the end of the World Now let it be supposed that the scale is even in other respects yet doubtless there 's something of weight in this in the balance of reason indifferently carried for who doth not value staid constancy before uncertainty upstart novelty may please the vulgar while the old and standing truth will onely satisfie solid men The fourth and last particular thing I shall mention here that men may expect in the Preachers of the Word in a Christian Allowance and order from a Christian Magistrate Common-wealth is allowance and order from the Christian Magistrate Which we have and you have not you know well enough that the Laws of the Land and two Ordinances of Parliament never yet repealed are against you so that the disorderly practice of publick preaching by men unsent is is a breach of the Laws of the Land which is manifest sin by the Word of God unlesse the same word doth command you to do what the Magistrate forbids which I am sure you cannot and think you dare not offer to prove but as for us the setled Ministery of Christ in England 't is known to the world we are own'd and authoriz'd by the Christian Magistrate which is more my brethren for the clearing of our call in a Christian Common-wealth then you imagine yea that something is necessarily to be done by the Christian Magistrate for the full and regular Ordination of Ministers is jointly agreed on both by Calvenists and Lutherans Pralatians Presbyterians and Ames the head of the Congregationall way and certainly such as deny it are in this particular no good friends to Ministers or Magistrates to make such a distance betwixt them * Caution The particulars of a Ministers regular call but take heed I say not the power of ordaining is held by them or by us to lie in the Magistrates hands yet they and we say that in a Christian Common-wealth something belongs to the Magistrate to do in order thereunto the Lutherans whom you applaud so much for the making of a full and regular ordination Place some-what in the hands of all the three Orders Classes or Estates as they term them viz. the Ministery Magistracy and people Cura etiam us omuia speaking of the Ministers call rectè siant pertinet ac Magistratum Ames de consu lib. 4. cap. 25. num 27. and to the Ministery they give
examination ordination and inauguration to the Magistrate nomination presentation confirmation to the people consent suffrage approving or as circumstances may require postulation Not willing to give all to the Minister with Papists to the Magistrate with Erastians or to the people with Libertines Anabaptists Brownists c. and to the purpose Amesius speaks who goes as far in this as we desire for the care that all things saith he touching ordination of Ministers he means be done rightly belongs to the Magistrate whose care and power doth contribute to us and disown you 'T is but vain to say that this is to fetch our power from the earth for we rather look on the favour of Magistrates and their assistance as a plain performance of that Gospel-promise Isa 49. 23. And Kings shall be thy nursing Fathers and their Queens thy nursing Mothers which I know not how can come better to passe then by their providing the sincere milk of the Word for us Now thus far we are come having stept beyond you four degrees into the approbation of indifferent men we are found to have for our wartant in preaching what you have or allow and over and above what may well be required by any other men yet one thing remains of greater concernment then all the rest for further yet we excell you in this that we have besides what the Word requires either to make or manifest us true Ministers the sum of the following Section SECT III. And we are not allowed true Ministers only by our adversaries We have what the Word requires principles by our own Congregations by all the Reformed Churches in the world and by a Christian Magistracy as hath largely been shewed but by the Word of God besides we having whatever the Word requires to make us Ministers or to evidence us such 1. To make us Ministers We have first whatsoever the Word requires to make us Ministers viz. Ordination according to the Word of God now The nature of Ordination that this may appear I shall briefly unfold the nature of Gospel-ordination of Ministers and for that end I pitch on and desire you to turn to that of Act. 13. 1 2 3. where we shall learn two things 1. What the nature of Ordination is 2. In whose hands the power of ordaining lies 2. Ordination is described here with respect to its substance and so it is a separating v. 2. or a sending v. 3. as also with respect to its Ceremonies v. 3. which are fasting and prayer and laying on of hands Now from both these we have this Rule That ordinary Gospel-ordaining of Ministers is a sacred separating and setting them apart for the work of the Ministery which ought to be solemniz'd and distinctly signified by fasting and prayer and laying on of hands Concerning which I lay down these rules 1. This Ordination is more or lesse necessary the more or lesse Rules touching the necessity of Ordination the means thereof may be had 2. Therefore it is not simply necessary or with a necessity of means as if in no case a man might be made a Minister without it 3. Yet it is necessary secundum quid by Apostolicall instruction 4. Whole Ordination is of necessity required in a constituted Church on the Ordainers part not on the part of the person ordained I mean though God requires they observe his rule in ordaining yet the omission of some circumstances doth not null the substance of any ordination had without them upon this Rule * M. Seaman In talibus non est aliquid iterandum saith a Canon of the Papists themselves Note Because Calvinists and Lutherans place so much in a Christian Magistrate the edification of the Church is so necessary that it must be endeavoured as providence makes way and I had rather have the substance only viz. a setting apart by lawfull Ministers authoriz'd thereto by the Civill Magistrate without the other convenient ceremonies then to have full Ordination both substance and ceremonies from men not allowed by publike Authority 5. We must then distinguish betwixt the substance and ceremonies of Ordination and then we say that the substance which I take to be neer the same with vocation is far more necessary then the circumstance of fasting and prayer and imposition of hands 6. The substance of Ordination is absolutely necessary to make a Minister a lawfull Pastor to any particular flock though not so to licence a mans teaching to heathens out of a Church for suppose the highest case a company of Christians are cast upon the shore among heathens and there is no returning for them to the true Church again one of these may be made Pastor and overseer to the Church none doubt but how it must be by the calling of the rest whereby they separate him for the work which is the substance of Ordination and without the same no man among them may take that honour unto himself All these ceremonies of Ordination are to be gladly received The necessity of imposition of hands in some respects either for orders sake or to avoid scandal is acknowledged by these Protestant Divines who make least account of laying on of hands M. Seaman p. 74. Note Our Ordination is such as the word holds out when they may be had and readily submitted to not as the practice but the plain institution of the blessed Apostles and that that therefore will render a mans call into the Ministery most clear from scandall or any touch of offence These Rules I doubt not to lay before you as the conclusions of Protestant Divines and very much favoured by holy Scripture which would easily appear should I not exceed the bounds of a Sermon Now as these do keep the middle way 'twixt Papists upholding the absolute necessity of Ordination in all cases and Socinians and Anabaptists that deny it to be any way necessary at all so do they allow and maintain the lawfullnesse of out Ordination and calling to the Word of the Ministery both now and heretofore in the Church of England being no other but what is most clearly and evidently gathered from the Text before us this Act. 13. 2 3. with many other places Object But how shall we know that the way of ordaining in the text is the ordinary way for the Churches of Christ to walk in since the persons ordained seem to us to be extraordinary men Barnabas and Paul Answ That very thing proves it for if both these men had a call extraordinary before this their call then must needs be ordinary The Ordination of Barnabas and Paul was ordinary which is more plain too if we consider the work is the work of ordinary Ministers hereunto they are called viz. to preach ver 5. and to ordain others cap. 14. 23. they having an extraordinary call before that need not be repeated but they being to be sent about the work of ordinary Officers they have therefore moreover an ordinary call
that one is more Christian then another and then there is granted some Christianism and not all Antichristianism in the Church of Rome and she was at least before that wretched Councel of Trent a Church of Christ Now my conclusion hence is this That if it be granted that Conclusion Rome was a true though wicked Church before the Councel of Trent sate then our first Reformers had a lawfull outward call a lawfull Ordination unto the Ministery for were not they ordained Ministers of the Church of Rome and consequently of a true Church were not they ordained Ministers Reformatio Ecclesiarum per Angliam An. Dom. 1547. See more Sleid. de statu Relig. pag. 599. l. 19. by the Church of Rome before the Councell of Trent none can deny it and then we have a known visible succession of persons in the Office of the Ministery from the Apostles times to this day None may object That this is nothing to the Ministery of England for certain it is that the Ministery of England as may be remarkably observed had their Ordination if from Rome before the Councel of Trent sate for they with the Church of England broke off from Rome even while that councell sate Consider therefore these things Seven Considerables to clear the Ordination of our first Reformers in England You may reade those decrees in Sleidan they were made An. 1539. as pag. 346. and abolisht An. 1547. as pag. 399. 1. That Rome her self was a true Church and her Ministers true Ministers before the Councell of Trent sate and therefore much more the Churches in England were true Churches and the Ministery thereof true Ministers before that time 2. The Churches and Ministery of England in the time of that councell broke off from Rome abolisht her fatall decrees touching Religion demolish't the images and statues in the Temples and thus began the blessed Reformation in England even then while Rome was declining towards Antichristianism 3. Who then can choose but see and know that our first Reformers had I mean the Ministers their Ordination in a true Church from true Ministers and we from them unto this very day have had a succession of lawfull Ministers in our Churches and upwards from them ever since we bore the name of a Church which may I suppose be computed to be upwards of 1500. years 4. Moreover might Rome be said and acknowledged to be a true Church still though extreamly corrupted yet could not this blame but commend our leaving of her for we separate not from her as a Church much lesse as true but as a corrupt and Apostate Church that is we separate from her corruptions and from her only as we cannot joyn with her but we must partake of her sins and plagues Just as the Non-conformists who did not joyn in some acts of worship heretofore because they could not safely do it without having communion with corruption in it yet did not all the while disown our Churches or separate from them but in them only as Rutherford distinguisheth 5. But to cleer the matter a little further consider the Church as one universall visible Church of Christ and Rome to be but a member of it and so far as the state of Rome is Antichrist but sitting in the Temple or universall Church of God for though she would usurp her self to be the whole visible Church yet God accounts not so we see for she is but in the Temple of God though she would be as God there Now is it a sin for one particular Church to deny communion with a sister Church in those things wherein she offends both God and other Churches no doubtlesse but a vertue rather if one particular Church should deny communion with the whole visible Church bâ—sides her self in such a case Now Rome of right and in Gods account is but a sister no mother Church to the Church of England what authority she had over it was usurp'd on her part and utterly unlawfull if yeelded to on ours Now had the sister in the word denied to commit that folly with her brother and escaped his hands by flying from him she had done virtuously then also if England broke out of the hands of her sister Rome and would not commit that Adultery with her she hath praise of God for obeying his will and command If a sinner entice consent thou not One particular Church bears some Analogy to another like that of a member of a particular Church to another member of the same two particular Churches are members of one universall as two particular members are of one particular Church Now therefore if a member of a particular Church must not partake of the sin of another member no more must one particular Church of the sinne of another Again so a particular Church may not joyn with the sinnes and corruptions of the universall no more then one member may joyn with the Church of which he is in any sinne or errour whatsoever In We leave Rome in two things two things the Church of Rome is forsaken by us 1. In her corruptions and superiority of us in neither of which without sinne and losse could we joyn with her or yeeld unto her Now what hath been said upon this particular as it serves to pleade for oâ—r lawfull distance to the Church of Rome though she should be found to be a true Church still so also to maintain the practice of Luther c. who left the Romane Church before that wretched Councel sate we so much speak and complain of 6. Nor can there be any thing of moment urg'd from any interruption of Popery since against our Ministery or Churches in England could it be granted that the Councel of Trent did wholly and fully make Rome Antichrist for the Protestant Religion flourish'd from Henry the eighth's through Edward the sixth's to Queen Maries Reign indeed she made havock of the Churches however she reign'd but four years and four moneths and what of Popery she brought among us was by force so that by Q. Elizabeths gentle commands we easily reduced our selves to our former profession of the Protestant truth however what could this short sword effect as to the cutting the line of succession of true Ministers none can think that all were butchered but that many of our Ministers and people too did temporize throughout her Reign not daring to suffer for the truth secretly beleeved though not openly professed by them as by others * And as to this worst of the cases Johnson the Separatist himself helps us observing that in case of Idolatry in the time of the Law the Levites and Priests that had revolted upon Repentance kept their first functions without any new anointing or imposition of hands and for this hâ— quotes many Texts Again many other Ministers might be blinded and fall away in time of persecution for advantage sake who yet being ordained before Queen Mary lawfull Ministers might out-live both
beleeve so we tell our Children that they are obliged by Baptism to serve God own Christ forsake the World resist the Devil mortifie their flesh the more which if they neglect their condition is worse than the very Heathens Thus we have made good the first command of Matthew 28. 19. We shall now proceed to the other which you have in Acts 2. 38 39. Repent and be baptized every one of you c. For the promise is to you and to your Children c. Whence I argue The command of the Sign is as large as the Promise of the thing signified but the promise is to you and your children therefore the command of Baptism reacheth to you and your children too upon your repentance as to Abraham when he himself believed God commands him to be circumcised himself and his Children So here when you repent both you and your Children are taken into Covenant and you are commanded to receive Baptism for your selves and Children Repent ye parents and be baptized every one of you both Parents and Children who have call'd for Judgement upon your selves and Children for the Promise notwithstanding is to you and to your Children Col. But this promise here is a promise of the Spirit Ful. And of the forgivenesse of sins too ver 38. Coll. But that promise however is a spiritual promise Ful. Yet the promise which is said to be to you and your Children there is more then Spirituall indeed it is onely spiritually applyed at this time and why Because those to whom it is applyed are at this time onely spiritually wounded pricked to the hears yet the promise here is indeed the Covenant which hath both temporall and spirituall promises which is very evident if we turn to the second of Joel out of which the Text is taken which Chapter is almost made up of temporal and spiritual promises as if it were an Exposition of the Covenant Which Chapter was openly read and found to be so So this command was ended too for they being urged to say what they could for themselves they refused to say any more but would leave what had been said to the judgement of the people we being somewhat imboldened by their parties silence referr'd it to the people as they desired and asked them whether they were not satisfied with what had been said for in-Infant Baptism In Answer to which severall persons cryed out They were and not one of their partie said any thing to the contrarie but one who call'd to the people and asked them Why they would say they were satisfied when they were not Hereupon as we remember Master Hadridg stood up and asked these two Sophisticall questions Had. I have three Children which were never sprinkled and I would fain know what Command I have omitted I my self have been dipt and I would fain know what Command I have broken Ful. As for your own being Dipt or Rebaptiz'd you have broke the Command that is easily inferr'd from the words of Suppose I should say I have two children that have been both of them sprinkled what command have I broken And for my own part I was never Dipt or Baptizd again what command have omitted What Answer can you make the Apostle there is but one Baptism for you have had two And for the neglecting the baptizing of your Children you have plainly omitted the commands that have been prest for Infant Baptism which stand as yet unshaken notwithstanding what hath been moved against them Now we have given you these Commands we shall shew you example also which hath a probable Argument in it that Children were baptized by the Apostles It was That we have many examples of whole houses that were Baptized and surely those times were very barren if there should happen to be so many housholds without one child and if it be probable that there was but one Child in all these Houses as it is a very probable Argument for Infant Baptism since the whole households where ever they came were Baptized with the chief of their houses none ever excepted against or rejected There was some jangling about some particular houses but nothing of moment said to the Argument Then some indigested Objections were made against Sprinkling The sum of the Answer to them was 1. We do not exclude either Dipping or Sprinkling though we conceive that Baptism is rather a washing then either Dipping or Sprinkling 2. 'T is out of Charitie as well as judgement that we doe not Dip Infants and we have Scripture-warrant for it I will have mercy and not sacrifice 3. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth Sprinkling or Washing as well as Dipping they Baptized Beds and Cups and Tables c. And when Beds and Tables were Ceremoniously wash'd or Baptiz'd no man will say they Dipt them under Water The Adversaries unwilling to say any more against Infant-Baptism were urg'd to return to their first Discourse touching the Churches and say what they could against our Ministerie the thing mainly intended to which they agreeâ— but Master Fullwood being over-wearie desired respit it was urged that Master How who had sufficiently provided for it whose exercise was gladly and thankfully read and transcribed by several Godly Ministers about us might state the Question touching the Ministerie which was Whether the present Ministerie of the Churches now in England be the true Ministerie of Jesus Christ exclusively Which they refused pretending that would be too long but gave way that Master How might bring an Argument or two for the Ministerie of England for which he engaged and performed as followeth How Those that are Instruments in the hands of Christ for the work of Conversion are the Ministers of Christ 1 Corinth 9. 2. But the Ministers of England are Instruments in the hands of Christ for the work of Conversion Rom. 10. 11. Ergo. Again Those that come in at the door of the Sheepfold are the true Shepheards But the present Ministers of England came in at the door of the Sheepfold therefore they are true Shepheards Coll. I deny the Minor How Those that come in after the mind of Christ come in at the door of the sheepfold But we come in after the mind of Christ therefore c. Col. I deny the Minor How Those that come in an Apostolicall way come in after the minde of Christ but so we come in Col. I deny the Minor How Those whose substantialls in point of Call were such as the Apostles acted by in point of Ordination came in the Apostolick way But it was so with us Col. I deny the Minor How Four things onely are required in Scripture so far as I can â—â—nd to make a compleat Apostolicall Ordination First Examination for Abilities 2 Timoth. 2. 3. Secondly The Savour of good report from the Church Acts 16. 2. Thirdly a time of seeking to God Acts 14. 23. Fourthly Imposition of hands 1 Tim. 4. 14. Col. You fail in the End How Personall failings
THE CHURCHES and MINISTERY of ENGLAND True Churches and true Ministery Cleared and proved In a SERMON preach'd the 4th of May at Wiviliscombe before a numerous Congregation assembled together to hear the opposition which had been long threatned to be made that day by Mr Collier and others of his party who with the greatest strength the West would afford them were present at the Sermon Wherein were these Five things undeniably proved 1. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true Church 2. That then the Churches that are now in England are Churches of God and true Churches 3. That then the Ministry of those Churches is the Ministry of God and the true Ministry 4. That then there is a great and heavy sin lying at the door of all such as do presume to preach publikely among us without a Call who have true Churches and a setled Ministry 5. And then they also must needs be guilty who forsake true Churches and a lawfull Ministry to follow and hear unsent preachers By FRANCIS FULLWOOD Minister of the Gospel at Staple Fitzpane in the County of Somerset Before it there is an Epistle and Preface shewing the Manner and a Narrative subjoyned shewing the Substance of the Dispute after the Sermon both which lasted nine hours Set forth by the Ministers that were at the Dispute and Attested under their Hands LONDON Printed by A. M. for George Treagle at Taunton and are to be sold at London by William Roybould at the Unicorn in Pauls Church-yard 1652. TO HIS Honoured Friend Collonel JOHN PINE A Member of Parliament and one of the Commissioners for the Militia of the County of Somerset Honoured Sir TRuth though above this sixteen hundred years of age and hath learned long since to stand alone yet experience hath found it doth ever goe the better into the world when imboldened with the care and gracious protection of a nursing Father and I need not dawb with untempered mortar to tell the world what the whole West of England well nigh knows that the potent influence and pleasant shade of so noble a Tree will better protect and secure those truths against all the heat of present opposition then these poor contemptible following Leaves can do Now Blessed be the God of Truth that hath inclined your heart to own his truth and more particularly to embrace an opportunity wherein you may do his shaken Churches throughout the world so great service a bold expression I must needs confesse yet Worthily Honoured Sir give me leave to be bold and I shall adde That there is nothing more certain then this that these mens principles we speak against would at once strike down I say not the credit but being and truth of all the Churches and Ministery and Ordinances of Christ that are either now or ever have been in the world since the Primitive times and who is not affrighted from horrid principles But since the designe lies so deep I beseech you Noble Sir to consider a little who they are that undertake it and with what Engine they think to effect it First Who and what are the men of so great an adventure Methinks Fame should carry them to be mightily skil'd in the Originall tongus or deeply read in the History of the Church whereby they had discovered something there that was never found out before or some Saints or Angels or Christs sent down from heaven to open some truths that had been lockt up and kept secret from the Church for so many hundred years but alas they pretend not to be any such but what are they even men of like infirmities with us and in a word no betterthen the Apostle describes unlearned unstable wresting the Scriptures But surely they have some weighty Arguments though the men be weak they would never undertake so great a design as to overthrow all Churches Ministers Ordinances and that ever since the Apostles times unlesse their Engine were somewhat answerable O yes they have allowed Infant-baptism Ministers that baptize infants are Anti-christian Members that were baptized Infants are Anti-christian and consequently Churches and Ordinances are all Antichristian Ah poor shift and yet you have nothing else will hold an Argument but this Let me now in the Name of God and all the Churches entreat these men to consider a few things or answer a few brief questions touching Infant-baptism and then they will see how desperate and unadvised they have been in a matter of so great moment 1. Suppose we should grant the baptizing of Infants an Errour May not the true Church erre may not the whole Church erre may it not erre in judgement and then what doth hinder but it may erre in practice too and yet be still a true Church to affirm the contrary is rank Popery Again If the Church may erre it may erre in circumstance without dispute and what is the errour of Infant-baptism if it be an errour more then a circumstantiall errour for have we not ever kept the substance of it the matter water and the form In the Name of the Father Son and holy Ghost how then I pray you can the errour of Infant-baptism destroy our Churches or nullifie our Ministers or â—â—her Ordinances 2. But alas who told you that Infant-baptism was an errour before the Anabaptists of Germany did who told you when this errour came first into the Church What Precept or Precedent have you against it in all the Scripture or what command have you to shew for the baptizing beleevers only alas poor men who among you dare answer to any one of these questions and how then wilt thou be able to answer them all and much lesse can you warrant the desperate conclusions you have built upon so weak so tottering a foundation But why do I trouble these poor men alas they are but the weapons and Organs of Jesuites who play their game under these mens cloaks Methinks I see them instilling their damnable doctrines into these mens ears and venting them again at their mouths how naturally do all the abominable errours of these our times if you follow them a little kindely saluting each other and joyning in one stream tend and flow to the Sea of Rome the Seminaries are sowing their Tares among us which indeed spring too fast all the Land over and if they be not rooted up and stopt in time the Pope it 's to be feared will shortly reap too large a harvest among us in England which Canterbury I remember warned us off who know more of their plots and methods perhaps then he should or we do in his speech upon the Scaffold Honoured Sir give me leave I beseech you to point a little at the Jesuites drift as I conceive among us His generall last end is to advance the Pope and bring in Popery which hath been hatching many years The means he makes use of for this great end is to
so that I thought there had been a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or a transmigration of the souls of some Jesuites into their bodies or as if they had been principled by some Old Loyolist Surely they never learned them at the Plough But they were all so soundly elided and their falsity so plainly demonstrated that the people professed themselves to have received full satisfaction So that by the goodnesse of God that daies action wan great credit to the truth reputation to the Ministry an encrease to that formerly thin and very discouraging lecture reclaimed some deceived souls confirmed many and is interpreted by some as a pledge of the fullfilling of that Promise 2 Tim. 3. 9. Some men may posssibly dislike the action it self and question the prudence and discretion of the Ministers who would so much undervalue themselves as to contest with such ignorant wranglers But the happy successe thereof may alone sufficiently answer whatsoever may be objected against their so doing to say nothing of the great sufferings of truth which were there likely to have been had there wanted strong opposition As for the persons who with such courage undertook and with such felicity managed this businesse thus much I dare say in their behalf that they aimed more â—t the maintenance of the truth then at the praise of a Victory And yet they aimed at victory also but not to credit themselves but the truth I have cause to think that there was no Minister there but is of my minde who could be content and willing to be abased scorned and slighted to lose all my comforts and hopes on earth to wander about as a vagabond being destitute afflicted tormented So that the name of Christ may be glorious and his Kingdom advanced if it were pleasing to God so to have it and my affliction might be more for his glory then my comfort and prosperity Nor let any supercilious censurer distast the publishing hereof No such thing was ever intended till the desires of some godly Christians who were willing that others might receive that benefit by reading of it as themselves had by hearing it and the necessity of vindicating themselves forced them to it Some reports were spread abroad that the Ministers were not only silenced but did also acknowledge their errour and openly make recantation So that they were necessitated to make the whole publique And herein they have Augustine for their President who having had frequent conflicts with the Donatists was forced at last to commit all his disputations to Writing because they alwaies proclaimed themselves Victorious though indeed as these Donatists at Wiviliscombe they were mightily convinced and confounded As for these its true they never left prating but that was looked upon and esteemed as no other then the wriggling of some Insecta when their heads are off Reader Thou maist not expect any elaborate Discourse here The dispute was sudden and unpremeditated the Sermon such as was then delivered when never intended to be published and I hope that these considerations will apologize with thee for the Authour who was willing though much to his own prejudice to impart it to thee without any manner of dresse more then it had when he uttered it I had thought Good Reader to have spoken more by way of Exhortation both to the honest-hearted and also to those who are for the present gone astray but that I have already detained thee too long from the reading of what follows And I doubt not but that if thou reade with an humble heart and a discerning Spirit thou wilt finde much satisfaction in the Points there handled God in Mercy guide both thee and me into all truth So prays Thy Servant in the things of Christ CHARLS DARBY THE CHURCHES MINISTERY of ENGLAND True Churches and true Ministery 1 COR. 1. 2. To the Church of God which is at Corinth to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be Saints with all that in every place call upon the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord both theirs and ours CAP. I. The Text opened and expounded THese words conteining the object of Pauls salutation shew us to whom he sends and dedicates this his Epistle viz. in the first and stricter place to the Church of God at Corinth and then more at large and secondarily to the Churches of God all the world over even as it is subjoined with all that in every place call upon that is by a Senecdoche worship the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord both theirs and ours that is Jesus Christ their Lord as well as ours Now to be the more particular and pertinent we pitch upon the first and stricter object here of this salutation and dedication touching which the text affords First its appellation the Church with Secondly its description and that three waies 1. It is described in its specification the Church of God 2. It s situation the Church of God at Corinth 3. It s qualification 'T is sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy all which we shall briefly run over again and clearing the same make the way more plain for our following discourse The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most easily derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 evoco here rendred the Church is frequently used for any company assembled together for any cause both in prophane and * Act. 19. 32. holy Scriptures We may reduce all kinde of assemblies to these three Sinfull Civil or Sacred and finde this word expressing them all For first there is a sinfull Church the Congregation of evil doers Secondly There is a Civil Church Acts 19. 36. Psal 26. 5. And lastly There is a sacred or a godly Church as this the Church of Corinth was which is here so plainly distinguished from the two former by this speciall attribute Of God It is not the Church of the devil or men but the Church of God at Corinth But this same Church of God is of various use and meaning Church of God too and a little inquiry made thereinto we shall finde a help and furtherance to us in our way 1. The Scripture means sometimes by the Church of God the whole invisible mysticall body of Jesus Christ viz. the whole number of the elect both in Heaven and earth that are or shall be gathered into one under Christ the head Ephes 5. 23. Col. 1. 24 25. 2. Sometimes again the Scrpture useth the Church of God for the universall visible Church which consisteth of all the particular Churches and persons with their children throughout the world that profess the true religion So it is used 1 Cor. 12. 12. 3. Sometimes also by a Metonimy for the place it self where a certain number of the visible Church use to assemble So 1 Cor. 11. 4. Sometimes also by a Synecdoche for any number of Church-members where ever they be So in 1 Cor. 16. 19. Col. 4. 5. 5. And lastly Sometimes for a particular visible Church whether
it consists of one Congregation or more as the Church at Jerusalem Smyrna Thyatira c. and so in the text the Church of God at Corinth So far then we are come having found this Epistle sent to a Church and that a Church of God and the Church of God at Corinth too There is now but one main thing behind but that indeed is a main one namely the qualification of this Church of God at Corinth which is blaz'd before us in the following words to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be Saints These words do plainly intend the matter or members of the Church at Corinth because all others are expressed afterwards with all that in every place c. and also what these members are viz. of two sorts Saints indeed such as are sanctified in Christ Jesus and such as are called to be so though indeed they be not so for many are called and few chosen many are called to be members of the visible but few to be members of the invisible Church for they are not all Israel that are of Israel Or else if you leave out those two little Rom. 9. 6. words to be which the English supplies it may seem to be thus the words to all that are sanctified in Christ Jesus are expounded by these latter words called Saints q. a. to all that are sanctified or should be so that bear the name the form though they want the thing and power of holiness and sanctification one of these two choose which you will must needs be the meaning of the Apostle here which will be most cleer if we but once think to whom and for what end he writes this Epistle to the Church at Corinth and on purpose to reprove them too and that for such gross and vile corruptions as he knew and we confess are even inconsistent with true sanctity faith and holiness though not incompetent to a true Church as is plentifully manifest through his Epistles c. which I shall reduce and set before you under three heads 1. He reprooves them for the breach of the Laws of soberness Sins of the Church of corinth in the two gross and known sins gluttony and drunkenness cap. 11. 21. 2. Of righteousness in their divisions envyings strifes cap. 3. 1 2 3 5. and worse in incest too cap. 5. 1. 3. Of piety and holiness living neither godly righteously nor soberly And first in defect I mean in discipline which appears by their mixt and disorderly fellowship not casting out the lewd and scandalous rout cap. 5. with 11. as also abundantly in excess by schism one despising Paul and another Apollo cap. 3. 4. Heresie denying the resurrection of the body 2 Cor. 15. Idolatry 2 Cor. 6. with to conclude a most egregious prophanation of the holy Table through ignorance gluttony drunkenness c. cap. 11. 21 c. Now doubtless all these great and gross corruptions foreknown to Paul and even just now with this very Epistle about to be reproved by him in thus Church he could not so grosly bewray his flattery or sin so deeply against his knowledge as mean to call them reall Saints all Saints that were the members of it Yea from what hath been said we must conclude 1. That they were not all reall Saints 2. Nor yet all visible Saints though indeed called to be both of these Some true beleevers there were among them some visible Saints not true beleevers those are both likely but this is certain there were many vile and openly prophane and scandalous persons among them and as certain also notwithstanding them Paul salutes them as the Church of God Notwithstanding he fore-knew and intended by this his Epistle to reprove all those grosse and abominable sins you have heard yet here and behold his salutation runs To the Church of God at Corinth CHAP. II. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God FRom the Text thus opened we descend to inferre some seasonable Points which like unto a chain though every link be not fastned immediatly to the first we shall finde have a plain and kindely dependance each upon other and they are these 1. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true Church 2. That then the Churches that are now in England are Churches of God and true Churches 3. That then the Ministry of these Churches is the Ministry of God and the true Ministry 4. That then there is a great and heavy sin lying at the door of all suchS as do presume to proach publikely among us without a call who have true Churches and a setled Ministry 5. And then to conclude they also must needs be guilty that forsake true Churches and a lawfull Ministry to follow and hear unsent preachers I shall be as brief and plain as I may upon each of these in order 1. The first of these immediatly depends upon the text explained Scandalous persons in a true Church for if there were prophane and scandalous persons in the Church of Corinth and yet notwithstanding she bore the name of the Church of God it must immediatly and naturally follows that there may be prophane and scandalous persons in the Church of God there may be I say but I mean de facto and not de jure I confess they ought not to be there but if they be they do not unchurch the assembly wherein they are they are the disease and trouble of the Church but not its death indeed such gross and vile corruptions as we have found to have been in the Church of Corinth are as inconsistent with a pure Church as boyls and leprosie with a pure body but yet for all as the soul doth not presently leave and disown the body for any disease except it be mortall so neither doth Christ his body the Church Both the naturall and misticall body may be true though very corrupt and what I have before asserted is undeniable viz. That a mixture of profane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with a Church of God or a true Church for we see in the purest times in the very time of the Apostles themselves as soon as ever the seed was sown tares are mixt as soon as ever the Churches are planted they are thus diseased many corruptions are known to abound in most of them and yet all of them are owned none denied to be Churches of God even by the Apostles If this instance of Corinth be not sufficient consider the Church of Thessalonica Galatia Ephesus Pergamus 2 Thes 2. Thyatyra who had the mystery of iniquity already working who suffered themselves to be soon carried away to another Gal. 2. 3. Gospel who had lost the first love who had those that maintained the doctrine of Baladm with the heresie of the Nicolaitans Revel 2. 3.
As if Christ should say join your selves to them though wicked and prophane yet they are a true Church But how is that known why their ministry is true they sit in Moses chair But how doth that appear because their word and doctrine is true though their lives be wicked hear them but do a very cleer Note of the Catholick Church provided by lawfull Ministers Princ. dort c. 22. what they say not what they do And answerable to this is our Saviours rule for triall of Prophets By their fruit that is by their doctrine ye shall know what they be whether true or false preachers of the sound and orthodox truth is both a means and a mark a means of gathering and strengthening or confirming or keeping the Churches thereby together Now as the preaching of the word is a means to gather and constitute Churches at first so it being usually occasionall only it is not said to be a mark of the true Church but being gathered by the word and church'd by Baptism the ministery setled and fix'd as was said among them becomes an essentiall mark of the true Church Not only of the teaching which it doth immediatly but of the professing Church also since who can say where the true Church is but where the true doctrine and ministry is fix'd and setled and therefore we shall never read that God did ever divorce any Church though she deserv'd it long Rev. 2. 5. Nulla possit ◠schismatius fieri tanta corruptio i. emendatio quanta est schismatis pernities if the doctrine of faith be sound Tert. de praes cap. 6. Si confessio ejus convenit cum Scripturis verus est Christianus sin minus falsus Chrysost before untill he removes his candlestick from them Which is most remarkable in the Jewish Church who while a Church God did not deal so with any Nation neither had the heathen knowledge of his Laws and the Apostles are charged to preach the Gospel to none other and who continued without all doubt to be a visible Church of God untill the course or the ministery is turned from her to the Gentiles then and not till then God cut off the Jew and ingrafted the Gentile 2. There is another chief mark of the visible Church which lieth on the Receivers part I mean as before the Preachers so here the professours of the truth My sheep hear my voice saith Christ that is my reall sheep hear my doctrine really and my visible sheep apparently and visibly so that a people baptized professing the true doctrine of Christ and visibly united in the publike and constant hearing and receiving the doctrine of Christ from the true Ministry are a true Church and are hereby known to be so I say this profession is visibly when the company do openly and visibly own and professe by frequenting the publike Ordinance of hearing the true doctrine and sufficient to discover them a true Church though very corrupt in other regards Now each of these the setled Preaching and constant receiving by publike attending the doctrine of Christ are very good marks of a true particular visible Church and in both together I conceive consists the form of the same viz. in a fixt and constant visible fellowship with God and each other in the sacred Ordinance of preaching and hearing the doctrine of Christ and from this a Church may recede and die two waies being starved to death through a Famine of the Word with the Church of the Jews 2. Or else being poysoned to death by contagious doctrine with the Church of Rome Object 'T is but weak to object That the preaching or hearing of the Word may not be marks or contain the essence of a true Church because these are common to Infidels Answ For the Preaching and hearing of the Word as common with Insidels is occasionall only as it was with Athenians and Paul but as it is an infallible mark of the visible Church 't is as before fixt and setled and in that as occasionall preaching and hearing of the Word is the only proper means of gathering Churches so where it hath so far wrought and prevailed as that it is become fixt and constant with any people it is to me a certain mark of gathered Churches provided alwaies submission hath been made to the Ordinance of Baptism To which I subjoyn this argument That which doth formally constitute or make a member of a Church doth constitute or make a whole Church But profession of the faith doth formally constitute a member of the visible Church and therefore the whole visible Church since the whole here is made of parts of the same nature visibility denominateth the parts and therefore the whole of the visible Church as true faith is essentiall to a member of the Church invisible and profession of that faith to a member of the visible so truth of faith doth constitute the invisible Church and profession thereof a visible Church according to the rule quae est ratio constitutiva partium est etiam constitutiva totius Quest But what shall we think of those Churches then that in time of persecution lose their Ministers so that the publike means of visible profession is gone Answ I answer Such cease not presently to be true Churches for while they own they professe the truth and profession we have shew'd is a good mark on the peoples part 2. While they desire the same they have a right thereto and enjoy this publike communion in its first act though they want the actuall administration and enjoyment of it 3. But considering how much of the form of the Church Ecclefia est unius cōgregationis cujus membra inter se combinantur ordinariè conveniunt uno in loco ad publicū Religionis exercitium Ame. Med. p. 215. 2. 2. consists in this publike communion together I cannot compare such a people better then to a man in a swound in whom for a time the soul the form ceaseth to perform its formall actions though it be not yet severed and gone from the body yet if such a fit as this continue Physicians tell us 't is very dangerous and experience reckons it a sure infallible sign of death even so when Vision fails the People perish CHAP. III. That the Churches that are now in England are Churches of God THe next conclusion doth naturally follow and closely and immediatly depend upon the former for since as we have found a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true Church Then our Churches that are now in England are Churches of God and true Churches I dare not say they are pure and much lesse perfect yet I Our Churches true Churches doubt not to prove them true Churches but by Churches I mean not though I highly commend that hand of wisedom that made the parochiall difference the Parishes here or at least not as under the notion
of Parishes but the fixt and setled and usuall assembling 〈…〉 consisting of Parishes or more or lesse These I affirm 〈◊〉 Churches of God and true Churches In the proof whereof though I might very safely confine my self to what hath been said touching the essence and marks of a Church before I shall lay my line somewhat larger to make if possible surer work Yet all shall be reduced to two Arguments and the first is this Arg. 1 There is nothing in our Churches to make them false and nothing wanting in them to make them true Churches and Nothing in them to the contrary what then can hinder them from being true First I say there is nothing in our Churches to make them false 1. Neither of manners nor 2. of government 1. For manners 1. If either we in these later daies should have some allowance above these first Apostolicall Churches for the Church is compared to a ship the which the more it sails upon the sea the more it is subject to leakes to a house that with oldness doth decay and grow to ruine c. See Morney of the Church p. 38. we confesse that the Lord hath much against us both of sin and errour disorder prophanesse blasphemy and heresie but consider all this cannot unchurch us this may de jure provoking the Lord to remove his Candlesticks away from us except we repent but while we have these I mean his candlesticks Word and Ordinances our corruptions cannot de facto make us no Church nor yet a false no more then it did the Church of Corinth unlesse there have been something revealed from heaven since then that hath placed the essence of a visible Church in the conditions and manners of the members thereof which if we pray when where and how 2. For matter of government indeed of late we were under Episcopacy all whose appurtenances savoured of Antichrist yet could they never denominate our Churches Antichristian Churches while our doctrine pure our heart was sound though our heads did ake for just so it was with the Church of the Jews in our Saviours time the Rulers were rebellious the Priest corrupt yet notwithstanding their doctrine pure our Saviour accounts them a true Church and accordingly advises his own Disciples to joyn unto them as before we shewed the doctrine heretofore among us is still extant and none can pick any materiall errours in it our Episcopall service Courts tyranny c. were very grosse yet not inconsistent with true â—â—â—â—rine and much lesse doubtlesse with true Churches 〈◊〉 were even then when such like abuses were highest ever acknowledged sometimes defended by preaching and printing against the Brownists as is very well known by those very men that touching our corruptions were Non-conformists But suppose we should give you what you beg for that our Churches then under I mean the Episcopall government were Antichristian thereby what gain you must we be therefore Antichristian still God forbid Are we not reformed at least so far from that very thing for which you impleade us Are not Bishops gone their Courts and Service-book and all their dependencies gone along with them I hope then we are not Antichristian still because you and your brethren were Heathens and Infidels before you were dipt are you so still that you will say is but poor reasoning what then is there left to make us Antichristian You will not say Presbytery for that will be vain vainer then vain since as it can never be proved Antichristian so neither are we yet governed by it And as there is nothing in our Churches in England to 2. Nothing wanting in them make them false so is there nothing wanting in them to make them true now we can be pretended to want but 3. things that are necessary to a Church Church-governours Church-government and Church-Covenant Now as for Church-governours we have so many of them as the being of a Church though not as the well-being of it requires since the form of a Church consists in Ordinances not in Discipline and we have sufficient administrers of them who rule over us by speaking to us the word of God Heb. 13. 7. 2. As for Church-government in some places in some branches viz. of discipline 't is wanting among us but the want thereof cannot unchurch us for the Church of Corinth wanted the same Cap. 5. and yet is saluted as the Church of God 3. And lastly We want not either a Church-covenant since the word of God requires it not 2. Since we have it implicitly though not expresly for we must have some agreement or other who walk together in the same fellowship for how can two walk together unlesse they be agreed 3. Besides our Brethren of the Congregationall way that are so much for this Covenant account us true Churches though we want it and should have it What want we then yea what have we not have we not the Sabbath Word Prayer Sacraments and Censures too in many places with us however what want we essentiall to a Church who have matter and form matter in that we have both reall Saints to gratifie you and visible professors to satisfie us Touching the qualification of Church-members in generall and of our own in particular sufficient hath been said before and for the first constitution of our Churches in England though that be nothing to our present condition we have largely cleared it in the debate related and printed after the Sermon Arg. 2 The Churches that are now in England are the Churches of God because they are in Covenant with him Cause in Covenant Psal 50. 5. Now the consequence here will not be questioned however it is Analogicall upon that Text Gather my Saints together unto me allye that have made a Covenant with me c. implying hereby by being in Covenant with God they are really a Church for that they have a right to be an Actuall Congregation But the Assumption hence viz. That we are in Covenant with God cals for proof which is easily performed by three Arguments viz. because we have the Seal of the Covenant the word of the Covenant and the blessings of the Covenant all which we shall finde not only to prove us in Covenant with God but immediatly to conclude us a Church of God too Then first We have the seal of the Covenant the Sacrament 1. Having the Seal of the Covenant of Baptism which in its predecessour Circumcision was called the token of the Covenant or a token from God whereby they should know themselves to be in Covenant with God and this token or seal was called by God and commanded by him to his people under the name of the Covenant intimating to us that those that denied the seal denied the Covenant or exclude themselves from any interest in it as is the folly and weaknesse of too many with us in renouncing their baptism Now as this is the seal of the Covenant so is it
also the door of the Church for persons though really converted by the preaching of the Gospel and the Children of Beleevers born in the Church are not though virtuall actuall members of the visible Church before Baptism which seems to be built upon the known Text Go disciple all Nations baptizing them that is disciple not by teaching only not by teaching properly but by baptism the participle using to signifie the manner of doing Go disciple but how must we disciple why as before by circumeising so now by baptizing and in this Commission in Matthew to the Apostles the Commission given to our Father Abraham is but enlarged 't is the same * The Sacraments of the Jewish Church in substance were one and the same with our Sacraments Heb. 13. 8. 1 Cor. 10. 1 2 3. Joh. 8. 56. Joh. 6. 50 51. Col. 1. 11 12. 1 Cor. 5. 7. all say this except Papists Anabaptists Arminians and Socinians for substance though it differ in circumstance the work is the same to disciple and make up Churches though the matter is larger Abraham chiefly that one Nation to come out of his loines together with all that would joyn as proselytes and the Gospel Ministers must disciple all nations i. so far as they can and the nation will submit unto them Abraham was commanded to disciple by that initiating ordinance of Circumcision and the Gospel Ministers by this of Baptism indeed there is teaching prerequisite to prepare and fit men out of the Church for the ordinance of Baptism and so much was requisite to make men proselytes for Circumcision which thing makes it cleer that not only Abrahams naturall seed had right to this Ordinance or that his seed were circumcised as his seed but as they were capable of being members of the visible Church and therefore we finde that when heathen people were willing to become members of the Church they had the Ordinance of initiation Circumcision to enter them in and not them only but their children also which is a cleer pattern for the Ministers of the Gospel towards the Gentiles How shall we behave our selves to them why we have commission to disciple them But how why as the Ministers of Law did proselytes Gentiles before us by Circumcision so must we now by Baptism but whom among them why as they before us the prosely to Gentiles and their children too so must we also disciple by baptism the nations of the Gentiles and their children too so far as they submit themselves and their children to the Ordinance of Christ But I must return Baptism wee see is the door of the Church which further appears by Joh. 3. 5. Except a man be born again of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God this Kingdom of God I conceive to be the Church for Christ is telling Nicodemus here of earthly things and you may conceive the Church invisible or visible if invisible here is a door to let you in the baptism of the spirit and regeneration reall if visible here is another door for that too the baptism of water a regeneration visible a man may be born again i become a new man two waies and accordingly may have place in the Church two waies he may be born again indeed by a reall work of the spirit within and thus becomes a member of the invisible Church or else a man may be born again in shew only from a visible member of the world and the divel discipled by baptism and made thereby a visible member of Christ and entered into the visible Kingdom of Heaven the visible Church which indeed is sometimes first according to the order of the words except a man be born again of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the visible or invisible Church the Kingdom of Heaven Now to end with this it cannot be denied upon a good ground but we in England are a discipled nation and are entered into the Kingdom of Heaven the visible Church being born again by water Neither have we the seal only for we have the writings 2. And word of it Church is built upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets too not only a pledg or token of the bargain but the word of the Covenant also the Scriptures in purity and the Ordinances of them in power and fullness which is undeniable and therefore we have the Covenant Deut. 4. 13. Heb. 9. 4. also above all reasonable contradiction and therefore we are the Churches of God for full satisfaction To * Rom. 9. 4. the Jews belonged the Adoption glory and Covenants but how does it appear because to them belonged the giving of the Law and the service of God And what advantage had the Jew by being a Church above the Gentile that was none why much every way but chiefly because to them were committed * Rom. 3. 1 2. The walls of the Church have their foundation in the Names i doctrine of the twelve Apostles and is therefore the pillar and ground of truth Rev. 21. 14. the Oracles of God shewing that they were a peculiar priviledge to and a distinguishing character of the visible Church for God sheweth his word unto Jacob his Statutes and judgements unto Israel and hath not dealt so with any nation that is among the heathen that have no Church Psal 147. 19 20. compared with Cant. 1. 7 other nations doubtless might have the Bible among them as we at this day have the Turkish Alcoron but here lay the difference God did not shew promulge or preach his word to them it was not with them as the Oracles of God the word of the Covenant to them Gospel Ordinances are a great part of the outward administration Ubi est fides illic est Ecclesia ubi non est fides ibi non est ecclesia Chryso of Gospel Covenant where God is pleased to hold a visible communion with us and we with him as before and so long as we have these we are no doubt in covenant with God and then a Church of God And to make all sure we have the peculiar blessings of the 3. And the blessings of it covenant which God bestows on none but such as are in covenant with him his own Churches These are chiefly three the blessing of his spirit of his providence and of his people the first is inward the two later outward but all spirituall and all speciall and peculiar blessings but of them in order The first and inward blessing of the Covenant is the blessing 1. Conversion I mean not only the common convictions enlightenings with the knowledge of the Gospel which is indeed peculiar to the Church however but the speciall blessings of the Spirit of God accompanying his word for the work of conversion in the hearts of our hearers This I make an infallible Mark of the truth of our Churches Conversion ordinarily wrought in our Churches Conversion may be
other things which may be required The second part of the Argument Four other things the Ministers have which their adversaries want for the warrant of our preaching by other men all which will be found to commend our Ministery to you as the want of the same will very much disparage if not wholly condemn the preaching of others The first particular of them is humane learning this our adversaries allow us to have who do not so much for the generall part of them as pretend unto it and be not now unwilling beloved to suffer that little we have of it to commend Humane learning us so far above them that want it O but alas you abuse it say they so beloved do you your gifts and must you therefore despise and reject them I pray you examine doth not your knowledge puffe you up that lifts you so high as the pulpit and higher yet in your own conceit and vain-boasting this I am certain of that if we do abuse learning you abuse both it and us much more I speak not here of your undervaluing but slandering both while you say of learning it is Antichristian an Idoll and I know not what and while you deceive the hearts of the people by a bold and more slanderous perswading of them that we say None may preach unlesse he comes fâ—om the University that all our calling lies in our learning which things you your selves either do or might know we deny we do not say beloved that humane learning doth impower but enable to preach it doth not make us Ministers for that I shall shew you anon we have by Ordination according to the Word but able Ministers Beloved do not think that humane learning is an enemy to God which is indeed the chiefest outward blessing of this life it being not obnoxâ—ous to the * Omnia mea mecum porto worlds violence as all other outward blessings are and so neerer to grace Think not humane learning is contrary to truth which the God of truth himself hath made so much and such honourable use in all ages of for the manifestation of his truth unto the world Consider the penmen of holy Scripture and to whom among them if it be safe to make such a comparison are we most beholding and consider whether they had not the benefit of humane learning As for Moses that publike Minister and honourable penman of the very * The Prophets are but expounders of the Law Calvin theme and ground of the old Testament he was learned in all the learning of the Egyptians as for Solomon Isaiah and Paul to mention no more whose Songs Prophecies and Epistles you value above all the rest of the Bible had not these all of them the gift and blessing of humane learning Solomon the wisest of men the greatest Philosopher that ever was who writ from the Cedar to the Isop that growes upon the wall Isaiah bred up at the Court and had by his own confâ—ssion the tongue of the learned and who know's not that Paul was bred up at the feet of Gamaliel There are three parts of humane learning that are judg'd Three parts of humane learning judg'd expedient for a Divine expedient to make a Minister such a workman as needs not be ashamed History Tongues and Arts and these only so far as they are necessary helps for true understanding and expounding the Scripture which is our onely text to preach upon I do not say we have all these so far as we should yet this I say that so far as we want them so far we are workmen that had need be ashamed and those that have attained a ripeness in them are the more to be commended and honoured by how much the more they are fitter for their work thereby 1. For History 1. History the story of the Bible commends that to us and not only in it self but in other histories besides it self without which truly the history of the Bible nor Prophecies nor Promises belonging to our times can well if at all be understood 2. For Arts 2. Arts. we require no more then may serve to answer the Apostles precepts before named that a man that desires the office of a Bishop be able to convince gainsayers and apt to teach which cannot indeed as experience proves in these times of ordinary acquiring abilities be gained and had without competent acquaintance with Logick and Rhetorick 3. And lastly for 3. Tongues Tongues I only desire you to think with your selves how it had been possible for Apostles themselves to have kept their commission and preacht to all nations as in Acts 2. unles they had had the gift of languages and whether the gift of tongues be such a contemptible thing as you make it if acquired which we see God made when inspir'd the great gospel miracle and means for the transplanting his Church from the Jew to the Gentiles withall how your selves your selves may consider would ever have enjoy'd the Bible in English or understood of it so much as you do had you not been beholding to the humane learning of other men for it Yea my brethren if you recollect you may easily remember All which three the adverse partee had occasion to use in their dispute at Wiviliscomb that sensible experience shew'd you the good and need of all three at that one late conference with us at Wiviliscombe where your selves had occasion to quote the Original to retire to the state of our Churches in England for many years agon and also to dispute in form and method which if you remember not above a thousand of people I suppose will for you and which if you remember me thinks should possess you with better conceit of humane learning in all its parts of History Tongues and Arts. A second particular that the eyes of men may look upon 2. Allowance of all the reformed Churches in the world and see in us and not in you is of great weight and is this that we are members of and allowed lawfull Ministers by a true Church yea and by all the Reformed Churches in the world Then how can your blast possibly hurt or your pretences reach or equall us when alas poor men you are neither members of nor allowed lawfull Ministers by any one true Church but have been condemn'd and silenc'd by the verdict of all the Churches and Councils that ever were I say you are no members of a true Church because you They are not so much as members of particular Nor of the universall visible Church have rent your selves by dangerous schism from all the reformed Churches in the world Besides you are not in the universal visible Church for why you were indeed but by renouncing your Baptism you are again gone out of the door of that Church also poor souls you little imagine of what dangerous consequence the renouncing of the ordinance of Baptism is which was in
not unto the words of the Prophets that prophesie Jer. 23. 16. with 21. to you they make you vain And why I have not sent these Prophets yet they ran I have not spoken to them yet they prophesied A Brief Narration of the heads of that long yet happy Discourse betwixt M. Fullwood assisted sometimes with M. Wood M. Howe c. and M. Collier with the strength of his party in the West upon May 4. 1652. at Wiviliscombe commonly known by the name of Wilscome in Somerset-shire M. FVLLWOOD whose turn it was to preach there that day having ended the Sermon which precedes this Narrative the Adverso party flockt together as neer as they could to the Pulpit and M. Collier in the Name of the rest declared himself unsatisfied touching what had been delivered We desired them to have a little more patience and to attend the stating of the question touching the Ministery which M. How had on purpose provided for our Discourse that day in private they replied again that there was more matter in the Sermon delivered then we should be able to discusse that day they would not yeeld to the motion of the stating the question but with a kinde of violent importunity urg'd that the Minister that had preacht would maintain his doctrine to which at length we yeelded and bid them object having chosen Moderators M. Wood on ours and a Captain on their part Coll. M. Collier began to this purpose I shall go through the Sermon in order the first point was That openly scandalous and prophane persons with true beleevers were not inconsistent with a true Church but this I shall not meddle with Full. I thank you for that Sir yet if you have any thing against it I pray you say on Coll. No I will let that passe and come unto the second which was That the Churches of England are true Churches which I have four things to except against 1. That their constitution was false 2. Their members are false 3. Their Ordinances are false 4. Their Ministery is false Full. I deny them all and first I deny our constitution to be false and would have you prove it Col. You were falsly constituted in Q. Eizabeths daies for you were made true Churches by the civill power the command of the Queen and not by the Ministry of the Word as you should have been Full. That is denied for we were not reclaim'd from Popery by the Queens command without but with the assistance of the godly Protestant Ministery as History makes to appear and you cannot deny Coll. But did not the people turn for fear of the power of the Magistrate and I hope you will not say that the Cavaliers are good Subjects and truly converted to the Parliament because they out of fear subscribe the Engagement Full. To say that all did turn for fear is but a slander and cannot be proved but however I had thought you had spoken all the while of a visible Church do you require reall faith to constitute a visible Church I say that the outward subjection of the Cavaliers is enough to make them visible subjects and the outward profession of Christ is enough to render men externall members of the visible Church * M. Thomas Gorges a very worthy godly and learned Gentleman and Justice of Peace in the County Besides the renounâ—ing of Popery and embracing the Protestant Religion was a voluntary act of the whole Land in their Representative the Parliament that sate in the first year of Q. Elizabeths Reign Full. M. Collier hearken to the Gentleman he is a States-man and knows what belongs to History better then you or I. Coll. But you should have been constituted by the Ministery of the Word Full. I have told you we were there were three special acts of grace seen in our conversion from Popery the first was upon the heart of the Queen inclining her Majesty to propagate the true and Protestant Religion the second was in inclining the people to be some what wrought on by the command and influence of the good Queen the last now was seen in making effectuall and perfecting the former by the Protestant Ministry â— Several Protestant Ministers of England before Q. Maries daies fled in the time of persecution and returned in the beginning of Elizabeths reign and preaching all over England reclaim'd the people from Popery With this they seemed to acquiesce urging their great objection no more at all which may hint unto us that the most ready and surest way to foil such adversaries is by dealing with them in their own principles which was M. Fullwoods effectuall course throughout namely to give them what they desire by way of medium and then to wrest the weapon out of their hand or to soil them in their own play thus it was here supposing as they would though they can never prove that our Churches were constituted in Q. Elizabeths time who were indeed reclaimed then but constituted Centuries of years before and that there was no other means to bring a people to outward profession which fouly crosseth their own principles as appeareth afterwards or that the Civill Magistrate is to have no hand in the reformation of a Church which though supposed may not be granted or that to conclude that we cannot be a true Church unlesse we know the means and manner of its constitution which is indeed absurd if the essentiall marks of a true Church can be demonstrated as was in our Churches in the morning Yet with all these one of which they cannot possibly maintain they could not wield their objection the very medium it self viz. that we were not converted or reclaim'd by the Ministery of the Word being flatly false Then they broke off somewhat abruptly from this to Infant-Baptism and being there was nothing objected by any of them afterwards against the two next particulars Our Members and Ordinances we suppose their Discourse of Infant-Baptism was in stead of them Coll. Infant-Baptism is unlawfull Full. Why should we step so large What is Infant-Baptism to the businesse in hand however take your liberty and prove Infant-Baptism if you can to be unlawfull as you say it is Coll. That that hath neither precept nor president in the word is unlawfull but Infant-Baptism hath neither c. therefore it is unlawfull Full. I deny both your Propositions For the first I say it is not unlawfull to go to Taunton and yet you cannot shew me a precept or president in the Word for it Hadridge But M. Fullwood do not you know we speak of Ordinances Full. However M. Hadridge the Proposition is false and deserves correction But to come as near as you would have me I pray tell me what you mean by Precept here whether an expresse command or such a command as fals from the Word by just consequence if you require an expresse command in so many words though I grant that requisite to the substance of an