sing so merely as he doeth if hee did not both please the flesh and keepe descant with his corruption too But let him sing descant and take pleasure in his crochet musicke as much as he list he is to answere it and not I. so long as hee breaketh not our patience with his importunate clamours nor driueth the consort out of tune I will not contradict him ¶ The preface Let this then bee the 1 A paterne whereby to shape out an hypocriticall grimare paterne good Reader whosoeuer thou art how to 2 These felowes do wrestle much but affection foyleth them still wrestle with thy affections in the like assaults ¶ The answere In the former part of this preface you haue seene how the writer hath played the painter now to teach you that hee hath more shifts and occupations to liue by then one he taketh vpon him to play the doctor and teacheth vs that himselfe neuer learned to wit a long lesson of patience so litle doeth he know in what ground he standeth or what is conuenient for him that he preacheth patience out of his preface Well seeing hee will needes teach vs lessons let vs listen what he saith Let this saith he be thy paterne a mishapen patterne certes not worth two patars for who wrestleth worse then hee that runneth out of the listes and who is lesse valiant then hee that being as it were blowne away with a tempest of his affections for a simple reuenge set out this simple pamphlet good for nothing but to make patternes for his daughters pincases The sequele will declare the same to be true ¶ The preface It is lamentable I confesse that such vncleane mouthes as 1 Viz. Of Iob Throk and his selowes this should 2 Viz. As the author of the preface doth thus take their libertie to 3 M. Cartwr hath much disgraced himselfe to suffer such a lewde and foule mouthed proctor to plead in commendation of his innocencie and patience disgrace at will ¶ The answere If this mans mouth had bin cleane he would not haue vttred so many foule words as he doeth wherein I would hee did not bewray as wel the malice of his heart as the venim of his tongue but this is but a peccadillio with this man A worse matter it is that euen now hauing proposed vnto vs a patterne of patience and set madame innocencie before our eyes that gaue not so much as one glance of reproch to his aduersary he looking beside his patterne doeth giue reproches to those that are not his aduersaries and doth degorge his stomacke I know not against whom calling them Rabshakeh Senacherib Shemei and vncleane mouthes by common construction of speach the words this and thus where he saith such vncleane mouthes as this should thus take are referred to the next person that is to M. Cartwright and himselfe so wisely doth the man couch his wordes that he condemneth himselfe and yet I am not ignorant that he meaneth others percase the rout of Martinists and such like which haue blacke and foule mouthes and haue taken to themselues libertie to say what they list If he meane me as commonly he doth falling into his rayling rage he is to vnderstand that I haue wronged none nor spoken against any but such as with open mouthes haue too long spoken against her Maiesties lawes and gouernment the reuerend Prelates of England the ancient rites and ceremonies of Christes Church A matter much indeede to be lamented albeit Martin and his brood when time was made a iest at it ¶ The preface But muse not at it good Reader 1 Here he looseth himselfe in a common place it hath bene so in all ages and will be so still for so long as the Lord giueth Satan leaue to buffet and assaile his Church so long thou mayest be assured there will 2 Nor a Martin nor such like railers as this Prefator neuer want a Rabshakeh a Shimei or a Senacherib to play their parts ¶ The answere So long as Martin hath any of his race liuing or M. Cartwright may command such writers as the author of this Preface there shall not indeed want Rabshakethes Shimees and Senacheribs to raile against Gods Church and to vexe honest men All this therefore albeit spoken against others yet most fitly may be applied against the heads of this sect For who I beseech you hath more railed against the Church of England and the present gouernment then the authors of the admonition then M. Cartwright I Penry Iob Throkmorton and such Martinistes who more like to Rabshakeh Senacherib or Shemei then they they take themselues indeed to be the Church but that is common to all schismaticks which professe to be that they are not Haeretici schismatici saith S. 1 Lib. de fide Symbolo c. 10. Augustine congregationes suas Ecclesias vocant sed haeretici de Deo falsa sentiendo ipsam fidem violant schismatici autem discissionibus iniquis à fraterna charitate dissiliunt quamuis ea credunt quae credimus quapropter nec haereticus pertinet ad Ecclesiam catholicam quoniam diligit Deum nec schismaticus quoniam dilig it proximum 2 Lib. 1. contr Parmenium Optatus calleth them rebels to the Church and saith they are cut off from the Church 3 De si l. ad Petrum c. 38. 39. Fulgentius doth not onely exclude schismatikes out of the Church but telleth them that eternall fire is their portion The Church is but 4 Ioan. 10. one fold and 5 Rom. 12. one body how then are they of the Church that as fishes slipped out of the net as it is written Luke 5. so are they departed out of the folde and diuided from the body Are they to be reputed members that haue no better vnion with the parts true members of the Church They alledge they are no schismatickes but that is as cleare as that schismatickes are no members of the Church For first they haue deuided themselues from their Bishops next they haue erected as it were new altars and formes of sacraments thirdly they haue ordeined ministers to themselues and refused the ministers of the Church and finally haue publikely oppugned both the gouernours and gouernment of the Church and therefore either is not the Church of England Gods true Church or these men are schismatickes Who then doth not muse at the impudencie of this felow that compareth those that defend the state and peace of this Church against mutinous Martinistes vnto blasphemous Rabshakeh and such rayling felowes being himselfe a chiefe railer and seeing his fellowes to haue railed so iniuriously against the Church of England As for those whom he accuseth they would bee much ashamed if they should not deale more modestly then he doth and farre more charitably ¶ The preface Neuerthelesse herein thou mayest 1 This sect doeth well comfort them selues with wine and comfits this exhortation
saith they were worth to me two hundred marks by the yere they neuer haue bene nor wil be worth to vs both two bundred farthings in all More then that albeit my L. chiefe Iustice of England dealeth very honourably with vs yet I referre it to his iudgement if his lordship will be pleased to speake in so priuate a matter that we are great 31 Of gaine hoped for or in M. Cartwrights owne opinion loosers by M. Morgan and M. Morgan if hee haue but a sparke of good nature shall be constrained to 32 He eried out of your biting vsury they say confesse our kinde and christian de aling with him both in releasing his bargaine for a 33 Where is that summe now bestowed summe far vnderneath the valew it was worth and 34 Not without consideration I trust forbearing him many yeeres with much patience after the forfeiture of his recognizaence and many promises broken with vs. now where he excuseth these two last charges of being executor to my brother Stubbes and of purchase of lordshippes as hee doeth excuse many other things in that he doth propound it onely in a question it is 35 You are vnwoorthy to be accounted a disputer that take this for granted vnworthy of any answere not onely because a 36 Straunge logike like to the strange discipline quēstion doth more strongly sometimes auow then a bare affirmation but because he is so violently and bitterly caried against the petitioner for the things he hath set downe by 37 The reason is for that hee seemeth not to doubt of his questions way of question and for his 38 Where do I make such excuse shame you not to deuise these soolish shifty excuse of being mistaken by the report of others I referre it once againe to iudgement how it fitteth with the credit of a minister of the Gospell to publish and that inprint 39 If you can proue that I do so you shall haue the garland and bee crowned king of the Consistory what soeuer he receiueth by report to the discredit of a 40 Where were you ordeined minister minister of the Gospell and vnlesse M. Sutcliffe will 41 I will bring forth God willing that whereof you will be much ashamed bring foorth his reporter some will happily conceiue that it is the inuention of his owne head and 42 Do you doubt of that you affirmed euen now if he did receiue it by report yet seeing hee would blow it abroad by so strong a blast as the print at the least he should not haue simply affirmed it but set it downe as a report lastly where he saith he desireth not to be acquainted with my estate he forgetteth himselfe for in his former booke as I remember for I haue 43 You were not then wise to speake without booke so merely imagined vatrueth not the booke at this present hee 44 It standeth you vpon to shew where promiseth to be a diligent surueyour or auditour of mine and other mens lands and in deed he is ouer diligent that can find lands of mine in 45 Hane you indeede neither land lease nor fee your selfe nor other to your vse in Norfolke nor Warwike shire Warwikeshire and Norfolke whereof I my selfe nor any of my friends know not one foot yet M. Doctor Sutcliffe admonished in this behalfe of his 46 It will appeare otherwise for indeed albeit I haue not affirmed that hee hath three or soure mannours yet hee hath in value more rent then some fiue or sixe mannours in England vntrueth set foorth in his former booke and occasioned thereby to correct himselfe feareth not in this later to affirme boldly that if he haue done amisse it is because hee hath set downe too litle too much sayth he I haue not set downe f. 69. p. 2. f. 70. p. 1. Matth. Sutcliffe M. Cartwright in the title of his answere doth directly affirme first that I charge him with the purchace of 3. or foure good mānors secondly that he hath purchased them with the spoile of the Hospitall and thirdly by both these charges would he insinuate that he is grieuously slandred These three points therefore doe rest orderly to be discussed To the first I say that I do not charge him to haue purchased 3. or 4. Lordships why doth not he that so boldly auoucheth this of me and pleadeth so long against me for it set downe my wordes or note the place where they are to be found Is he determined still to vse such peruerse and strange dealing In deed I confesse that I asked a question of Tho. Cart. how a man might by selling a coat and a few acres of land buy 3. or 4. lordships But euery one that asketh a question especially in matter of fact and concerning other mens dealings doeth not affirme so much as hee maketh a question of for then were questions and affirmations all one and it were vnlawfull to aske question in any doubtful cause And then should the petitioner and other of M. Cartwr consorts that haue made many questions of very odious matters affirme the same which were a point very dangerous not only to the authors of the booke but to the whole Puritan faction that so well liked it The petitioner doth aske whether men ought to incurre penalties for opinions they helde doubtingly Quest 1 yet it is heresie to doubt of matters of faith and disloyaltie to doubt of the princes title and right to the crowne So that I trust he wil not affirme so much as is conteined in his question Secondly he demaundeth Quest 2 whether the forme of prayers and administration of Sacraments the attire of ministers and other ceremonies of the Church of England are more agreeing to the Church of Rome or the Apostles and primitiue order I trust M. Cartur wil not affirme thus much in behalfe of the author of the petition He asketh of me why M. Cartwr Quest 10 may not sell the landes he had frō his father and buy other with the money as well as some of the Bishops c. Yet he is not so to be vnderstood as if hee said that Bishops sel their fathers lands buy others For few of them buy whatsoeuer they sell and few may bee compared herein to M. Cartwright and his fellowes who vnder pretence of refusing liuings haue by begging and whining and shifting and compleyning of persecution enriched themselues their children while Bishops haue hardly bin able to beare the charge of their office and place He also demaundeth whether the Archbrshop Quest 13 of Canterbury should not rather be called Popes then Primates yet I trust hee will not affirme it he hath a litle more honestie as I thinke He asketh further whether Christ being before the Bishops Quest 17 and should answere as Bambridge and Iohnson did should not bee committed yet I hope he is not so blasphemous a wretch as to compare Christ with
all this now I wil briefly note but the proofes you shall see largely deduced in the discourse ensuing First where I doe make diuers questions and some that touch you very nerely you passe the most of them ouer with silence but if you would haue iustified your selfe you should haue answered them al and that in direct and plaine termes I 1 Answere to the petit p. 186. aske you whether Fenners booke which he entitleth sacram Theologiam and which you seeme to allow conteine not strange diuinitie and gladly would I know if you mislike any thing in that booke what the points are you mislike you answere nothing I 2 Ibid. p. 189. demaund of you whether Barowes erroneous conclusions doe not folow of your assertions And what say you to it forsooth nothing I aske if the Prince refuse to reforme the Church how far inferior magistrates and the people may proceed therein and thereto your answere is 1 Ibid p. 194. 195. silence I demaund of you if you and your consorts do not thinke the practises of Geneua and Scotland for the setting vp of their discipline lawfull and worthy to be folowed and to this you say 2 Ibidem p. 195. nothing I demaund further whether you and your fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles and there decreed and enacted certeine Ecclesiastical canons and rules subscribed and practsed them contrary to her Maiesties lawes and the statutes of the Realme and you also answer as to other matters I desired to be resolued whether you had disgraced her Maiesties Ecclesiastical lawes reformation gouernment you respect my desires nothing Diuers other matters likewise I demaunded of you vnto which you answere nothing nay in the matters concerning Hackets practise and Martines libels and her Maiesties supremacie you answere imperfectly and vnsufficiently you dare not set downe my whole question nor confesse al was done concerning Copinger and Martin nor wil you answere directly to those particuler points of her Maiesties supremacie which the statutes and lawes giue her and doe you thinke that this kinde of answering is sufficient to cleare you Why then let Sanders Allen and those Papists and traitors which confesse so much in termes as plainely and openly as you do as yet be cleared concerning Stubbs his wil and your dealing with Francis Michel and others you haue also peruerted my meaning and altered my words and maner of writing who then seeth not how litle meanes you had to cleare your selfe being put to these hard shifts and not daring to set downe his words whom you pretend to answere but this we shall see more euidently when wee come to the examination of the particulers of your briefe Further your answer is altogether vnsufficient you do still cry out in your tragicall maner slander slander and yet you doe not vnderstand what is slander you ought therefore to vnderstand that slander is 1 L. 1. ff ad S. C. Turpil when matters criminal are purposely and falsly obiected but those things of which you go about to purge your selfe are either not criminal or els most true in part by your selfe confessed your selfe confesse that some things obiected to you are in their owne nature indifferent how then are they slanderous that you were acquainted with Hackets and Copingers practises and disliked not Martines courses shal be proued that you would not at the first answere to certaine points concerning the Queenes supreme authoritie in causes ecclesiastical you 2 In this booke and in the question concerning that matter confesse how then can you say you are slandered because forsooth as you would insinuate you did afterwards acknowledge it now offer to sweare it and yet you wil be taken halting when you come to the particuler points of that authoritie You deny that you allowed M. Fenners strange diuinitie concerning ouerruling and deposing of Princes by inferior magistrates yet haue not I said more then your own words wil proue and iustifie That which I say cōcerning working of Miracles and extemporal prayers you wittingly as it seemeth mistake and answere not which argueth that your conscience tolde you that I said nothing therein but trueth trueth whereof you are ashamed the execution of wills and purchase of lands is not criminall beside that what I said either concerning such matters or els your maner of employment of your money in effect and substance shal be proued sufficiently what reason then had you so vnaduisedly to challenge me and so deeply to charge me with this hainous matter of slandering nay what meant you or howe durst you once talke of slanders hauing your selfe slandered the ecclesiasticall policie of the Church as vniust the reformation thereof as prophane and impure the authoritie of Bishops practised in this Church as antichristian and contrary to Gods worde the clergie of England as destitute of an ordinary and lawful calling you hauing no other order then Deacon that I know the people of this land 1 Cartwr table as refusing Christ to reigne ouer them the preaching of the word as not orderly the administration of the Sacraments in this Church as not pure nor sincere neither haue you so good reason to charge me as I haue to charge you with slandering me hauing without cause imputed this vnto mee and charged me with shifting and I know not what vnchristian dealing and hauing put foorth and excited your friend to raile on me and charge me with diuers odious matters in the preface to your booke matters which I do the lesse regard for that as hee hath rashly charged me so he hath wickedly blasphemed God saying that God hath blasted my penne with a lying spirit attributing therein the wicked act of lying to God himselfe which is the Spirit of trueth and not only to me which cōfesse my selfe to be subiect to many errors of this M. Cartwright me thinks you should haue had more care and vsed therein more diligence and not suffered such blasphemies to passe in the forefront of your booke But may you say if you haue not slandered me yet you haue wronged me as if it were wrong to deale against the troubler of our peace the chiefe authour of your schisme the disturber slanderer of this Church and state and yet haue I done nothing otherwise then beseemed mee In my first bookes I dealt with you no further then the cause constreined me your importunitie that first began to oppugne the Church prouoked me In my answere to a certaine petition in the behalfe of your selfe and your side I do confesse I dealt with you more particulerly but I was drawen to it by the authors odious questions and courses When the petitioner said Quaere of Matth. Sutcliffe who is euer carping at M. Cartwrights purchases why he may not sel his fathers lands and buy others with the money how could I satisfie the man vnlesse I touched you particulerly blame therefore him that began
this treatise the same is confessed to be no slander The repugnance appeareth diuersly the first title hath apologie the second hath briefe yet neither is euery apologie a briefe nor euery briefe an apologie true it is that the written copy hath a briefe answere but al commeth to one reckoning for euery briefe answere is not an apologie nor contrarywise Nay the same maketh much against M. Cartwright for his friend perceiuing that his 1 M. Cartwrights briefe confessed by I. Throkmorton to be no answere briefe conteined no sufficient answere put out answere and onely left vs a briefe as it were a briefe or writte to summone me to looke to their dealing and craftie cōueyances or els a briefe or summe of their manifolde folies the first title doeth pretend that M. Cartwr is iniuriously loaden with slanderous accusations the second maketh light of the matter and complaineth not at all and sure strange it were if a man should be loaden with so fewe lines and such light paper the first braggeth that al accusations are answered but M. Cartwright seemeth more wise and therefore professeth no such generall answere to be made The first calleth my bookes pamphlets no doubt the writer was angrie with them the second hath more gentle and modest termes is it therefore likely that M. Cartwright will agree with me that euen at the first dash is so farre fallen out with his friend The falsehood of these titles shall be discouered throughout this whole answere and may also in part appeare by this for that they both pretend that I haue slandred M. Cartwright and yet neither he nor his friend that so saucily prateth in the preface shall euer be able to iustifie their pretense for 1 L. 1. ff ad S. C. Turpil slander is a false imputation of matters criminall but the matters which M. Cartwright taketh on him to answere are either most true or not criminous Besides that it is one thing to charge a man with matters criminall iudicially and in his owne defence another to charge him extradicially or iudicially and by way of accusation but that which I alledge is by way of exception and in my defence and not with a minde to accuse Let him therefore that chargeth mee with accusation iustifie his charge and note the time and place when I committed this fault and the wordes of my accusation In deede I mooued certaine questions but there is great difference betwixt questioning and accusing the ende of questioning is resolution the ende of accusing punishment let him therefore shew whom I haue accused or prosecuted in iudgement to haue him punished Last of all the author of the first title complaineth of iniurious dealing but M Cartwright I thanke him doeth friendly discharge me and I doubt not but I shal be able most clearely to discharge my selfe The confession of the aduersary against himselfe is most apparantly set downe in the first title for if all accusations that sauour of slander are answered as the title pretendeth then is M. Cartwright not slandered when if questions be charges as hee saith he is charged with diuers foule and dangerous matters a briefe of which I will here set downe to let him either vnderstand his fault or els if he will not acknowledge it to prouoke him to frame vs a more sufficient answere ¶ A note of certaine speciall matters which haue bene demaunded of M. Cartwright and his consorts and whereto in this his briefe he answered nothing FIrst I 2 Answere to the pet p. 185 q. 2. demaunded of all the disciplinarians of which I take M. Cartwright to be the leader whether those that would ouerthrow not onely the priuileges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole Ecclesiastical estate their iurisdiction also and liuings seeke not the ouerthrow of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of the Realme and seeke thereby the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her hands things that tend to the violating of the othe of Princes taken at their Coronation and the ouerthrow of the rewards of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to be suffered to proceede in their presumption This I demaunded to this M. Cartwright saith nothing Likewise Ibidem q. 4. I asked whether the booke of Fenner that is entitled sacra theologia and came foorth with the allowance of M. Cartwright conteine not strange diuinitie This question conteineth many members euen so many as there are strange positions concerning the holy Trinitie the Lawe the Gospel the Sacraments and such holy mysteries of diuinitie yet M. Cartwright satisfieth me in nothing Thirdly Ibidem q. 5. I desired to be resolued whether it be not reason to make M. Cartwright recant those dangerous opinions which vnder his credite come foorth commended in that booke And whether hee and his fellowes haue not made a newe booke of prayer and administration of Sacraments and practised the same or some part thereof without authoritie and whether they deserue not to be called in question for publishing of newe confessions of faith and new doctrine and what answereth he forsooth nothing It might also further be demaunded more particulerly of M. Cartwright whether in that communion booke which the disciplinarian faction offred to the Parliament desired to haue it authorized receiued throughout the Realme and which for the most part was either framed by his aduise or allowed by his consent there are not two articles taken out of the Creede namely that of Christes buriall and his descending into hell and whether there is not a newe article added binding all men to beleeue their new discipline making that a matter of faith and whether this be not a plaine violence offered to mens consciences and an alteration of our ancient faith Likewise whether there is not one petition wanting in the Lords prayer and their new paraphrase vpon it Theolog. sacr lib. 1. Likewise whether M. Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which M. Cartwright as it were authorizeth with his letters of commendation doe not confound essence and person in the diuine nature and deuide the persons of the Trinitie into two members and talke foolishly of the eternall generation of the Sonne of God and of the proceeding of the holy Ghost and teach that hatred as it is one of the attributes of God is the essence of God And lastly whether M. Cartwr will allow this for sound diuinitie In his next writ of slanders may it please him to shape vs a direct answere to these matters Ibidem q. 21. Fourthly it was demaunded by what authoritie the ministers of forreine Churches take on them to prescribe formes of discipline and new lawes to our Church Likewise it might be asked by what rule M. Cartwright taketh on him the ministery in our Church hauing no ordination vnlesse it be of deacon according to the lawes
of this Church Fiftly I desired to be resolued Ibidem q. 22. whether all the errours of Barrowisme do not follow and may be concluded of M. Cartwrights and his consorts assertions and whether it bee a matter fit that these men should deale with that sort of sectaries and not rather be constrained publikely to recant their owne foule errors All these questions M. Cartwright answereth with silence Sixtly Ibidem q. 24. I mooued a question whether M. Cartwright and his consorts do not either flatly deny or call in question the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and whether they take not from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church likewise authoritie to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiastical courts to cal synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuoure to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statute of the princes supremacie and prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church of England and of her Maiesties subiects if M. Cartwright meant to haue satisfied the doubt concerning his opinion and conceit of her Maiesties supremacie as he goeth about it he ought to haue answered this question directly and particulerly not doing it who seeth not that he slideth away in cloudes of generalitie and priuate conceites of his owne fancy concerning this matter Seuenthly it was demaunded Answere to the petit q. 26. 29. whether by M. Cartwrights rules in those places where they are receiued the Church goods are not spoiled and the liuings of the ministery deuided and rewards of learning taken away and also whether if the same should here be receiued the like wrack would not be wrought and her Maiestie depriued of tenthes and subsidies and a great part of her reuenues and of many faithfull and loyall seruitors which by those lawes being made vnable to liue would also be made vnable to doe her seruice Hee hath nothing to answere that will make for him Eightly it was asked Ibidem qu. 30. whether M. Cartwright and his followers haue not in all places where they haue bene receiued made sectes and diuisions and hardened mens hearts and filled their minds with pride and humorous vanities to which he saith nothing Percase he knoweth it is no slander Ninthly Ibidem qu. 31. I demaunded whether it be not dangerous for this state that M. Cartwright and his partakers haue so much vrged this Church to imitate the examples of Geneua and Scotland considering the dangerous courses which they tooke and the hard effects that followed of them It cannot be denied and therefore M. Cartwright holdeth his peace 10. Ibidem qu. 33. The question was asked whether that the subuersion of the state of the Church which foloweth necessarily of M. Cartwrights disciplinarian deuises is not a great scandale and hinderance to the reformation of true Religion in other places It is most apparent and therefore M. Cartwright forbeareth to answere 11. Ibidem q. 34. It is demaunded whether M. Cartwright doe not as well subiect Princes to excommunication as Sanders or Allen or other Papistes and whether his doctrine is not as pernicious to princes authoritie as theirs It must needs be granted and therefore he passeth by and saith iust nothing 12. Answere to the petit qu. 49. A doubt is made whether M. Cartwright doth beleeue that subiects may rebel against such Kings as they accompt Papists or tyrants as some of that side haue taught and hee passeth by in a graue silence 13. Ibidem qu. 51. It is asked whether M. Cartwright and his felowes haue not assembled in synodes or rather conuenticles and there enacted decreed certeine rules orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and also subscribed them procured others to subscribe them and by all possible meanes gone about without authoritie to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her Maiestie and ancient gouernment of Christ his Church This is most true and therefore passed ouer in silence 14. Idemaunded also whether they haue not in their said orders Ibidem qu. 52. which they call holy discipline taken al authoritie in Church causes from the Christian magistrate and giuen it to their consistories and synodes in so much that the magistrate is not once mentioned in that platforme and further I would know how the sufferance of these proceedings may stand with the maiestie of a Prince and with gouernment Likewise it may be demanded of M. Cartwright how he that hath bound himselfe to this forme of discipline by his word subscription may be thought to allow of her Maiesties supreme gouernment which the lawes of this land doe giue vnto her In this case he is as silent as Harpocrates 15. Ibidem q. 53. I desired to knowe whether M. Cartwright haue not taught that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their holy discipline as they call it is neither increased nor diminished whether the prince be Christian or heathen and likewise if he do not thinke or haue not taught that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one and that a Christian king hath no more to doe with the Church gouernment then any pagan prince or Emperour hath but he will tell vs nothing 16. Ibidem q. 54. I asked M. Cartwright whether he his adherents haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent authoritie or allowance and likewise without her authoritie or knowledge haue not both made secret meetings and established diuers newe orders and broched newe opinions and all contrary to the doctrine faith and gouernment of this Church of England this string M. Cartwright dare not touch 17. Ibidem q. 55. I asked him whether hee was not presumptuous if no more in doing these things and whether he ought not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults Likewise it may bee here asked of him whether hauing both in Fenners booke and his replies and writings taught written and allowed diuers points of false-doctrine he is not to be brought to a publike recantation for satisfaction of those weake ones that hee hath offended will it please him yet to answere this question directly 18. Answere to the petit qu. 57. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright swore truely in the Starre-chamber when he affirmed on his oth that he neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery monarchie there ought to be certain magistrates like to the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to controll and depose the king and to proceed further against him seeing he called M. Fenners booke wherein these points are expresly set downe the principles and grounds of heauenly Canaan and doth not onely without all exception allow it but also highly commend it this is also a point which he dare
not answere directly and plainly 19. Ibidem qu. 58. I would also vnderstand whether M. Cartwright and his fellowes haue not confessed on their othes taken in the Starre-chamber that notwithstanding all that care that hath bene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers points and whether they did wisely to subscribe to such orders or dutifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused imperfect platforme of gouernment to the Parliament that it might be confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and last of all whether it were wisdome to dissolue a state already setled to embrace a gouernment wherupon the authors themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke euer will be and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice doth not he that holdeth his peace consent 20. Ibidem qu. 59. I desired to heare whether M. Cartwright and his companions do not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the Parliament for the receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernment commaunded by Gods word and therefore do vtterly disclaime by a most necessary implication her Maiestie to haue any preeminence and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they do not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuil magistrate but yeeld all that power to their synodes classes and consistories It may also be further demaunded of him how this forme may be deemed perfect seeing they confesse they were not yet resolued vpon diuers points M. Cartwright answereth nothing 21. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did not vnderstand Answere to the petit qu. 60. that Copinger pretended an extraordinary calling which moued him to attempt matters that might proue very dangerous It might also haue bene demaunded of him whether albeit he would not be acquainted with the particulers of his lewd purposes yet he knew not that something was in hand for his and others deliuerance out of prison and for the aduancement of the consistoriall gouernment M. Cartwright standeth mute 22. Ibidem qu. 61. I doubted whether M. Cartwright mainteyning the excommunication of princes by the eldership and other points of Fenners booke doeth not mainteine doctrine as dangerous as Sanders Rosse and Allen that mainteine the excommunication of princes by the Pope and the Popes proceedings and yet M. Cartwright resolueth me not 23. Ibidem q. 75. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright did reueile to any magistrate the letters of Copinger or his strange deseignements but he deigneth not to satisfie any such demaund 24. Ibidem qu. 92. I asked whether M. Cartwrights answere to the Rhemish annotations vpon the new Testament cōtaine not diuers points of doctrine contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this Church and all sound diuinitie and why if it bee otherwise he doth not subiect it to the censures of the learned and what saith hee nothing 25. Ibidem qu. 93. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright or some friend of his did not threaten excōmunication against a certeine marchant at Middlebourg if he would not desist pursuing a seruant of his that had wasted his goods and whether such courses bee allowable All or most of these questions M. Cartwright passeth ouer in silence and doeth not so much as touch them in his apologie how nigh soeuer they touch him Beside these questions diuers other matters were asked of of M. Cartwright in the Starre-chamber whereto he hath either answered nothing at all or nothing to purpose Being demaunded Interrog 2. how far forth he hath affirmed or alowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to bee restreined by the iniunctions vnder colour whereof diuers allow and sweare to the supremacie that otherwise cōdemne it M. Cartwright saith he is not bound to answere the secret of his opinion belike he feareth to disclose Being demaunded Interrog 3. whether he hath mainteined or allowed that the king being no pastor doctor nor elder is to be accompted among the Church gouernours and whether in a well ordered Church the prince may ordeine orders and ceremonies in the Church M. Cartwright saith hee is not bound to answere and being reexamined as the Iudges determined hee ought he persisted in his former obstinacie a plaine argument of his peruerse opinion concerning her Maiesties gouernment in causes Ecclesiasticall Being demaunded Interrog 4. whether he did acknowledge the Ecclesiastical gouernment established by her Maiestie to be lawful and allowable by Gods word M. Cartwright answered that he tooke not himselfe bound to answere and so persisted being reexamined ergo he thought it not lawfull Being demaunded Interrog 5. whether he would acknowledge the Sacraments to be duly and sincerely ministred as they be ordeined to be ministred by the booke of common prayer M. Cartwright answered that he was not bound to answere and reexamined still refused to yeeld any further answere doeth he then thinke them to be sincerely and duly administred in our Church Being demaunded whether hee thought those that fauourd not the discipline to be accompted Christian brethren in the same sence Interrog 6. and as properly as men of his opinion M. Cartwright refused to answere as to a matter impertinent behold I beseech you how he accompteth of vs that mislike his new disciplinarian deuises Being examined whether he thought the Church of England refusing the presbyteriall gouernment to be the true Church in as proper sence Interrog 7. as that Church that embraceth the same M. Cartwright according to his olde tune refused to answere and said he was not bound Being demaunded Interrog 22. how farre he hath affirmed that without breach of the peace of the church of England as it is now gouerned men might treat of alteratiō of lawes proceed to practise the new discipline he maketh a sleight vnsufficient answere Being demanded at how many classicall or synodical assemblies he had bene present Interrog 23. 24. and what was treated in them hee either staggreth or answereth not Being demanded Interrog 24. whether in their assemblies they had not treated and concluded diuers matters direct contrary to the Ecclesiasticall lawes as for example that vnpreaching ministers are no ministers that no obedience is to bee giuen to Archbishops or Bishops that their ordination was to be receiued onely as a ciuile ordinance M. Cartwright answereth that they were treated of but not concluded and prayeth not to be pressed to answer further viz. how farre these matters were liked of which argueth his dislike of Ecclesiasticall lawes and presumption in determining against them Being demaunded whether he had not treated Answere to the interrogat in Starre-chamber Interrog 27. or propounded certaine meanes of maintenance for Archbishops and Bishops deanes and other officers and ministers Ecclesiastical hauing
worthy to proceed from a man made of doogeon nay made of stone and to bee set in a wall to confute all men that shall contradict the fancies of Puritanisme But ynough is said of these great brags of the performance you shall heare more hereafter as also who be those innocents and malicious accusers he prateth of ¶ The preface Concerning such things as it pleaseth him so 1 If constantly then vertuously constantly to 2 No bastardes shall bee fathered on him father vpon M. Cartwright and others by 1 I neuer fathered any thing on him by heresay onely heresay and report I 2 Doe you not heare I. Throk cornemuse cannot but muze that a man of his 3 Of what coat iacket or ierkin are ye coat and calling is no more smitten and abashed at it then he is for presuppose that one should heare by report that M. Sutcliffe was once taken with 4 A ridiculous deuise nowe newly cogged by Iob Throk or some such mate Aske Beza whether it be true false dice at Geneua and thereupon being forced to fly the towne should euer since beare a kind of inueterat hatred malice to M. Beza and the 5 I neuer hated them nor had to doe with them or they with me elders there this being knowē only to vs by 6 Lie not so impudently report how true soeuer the thing might bee in it selfe I would faine know for my learning whether this were aequa lāce or how it might sute with any measure of indifferencie forthwith without any further 7 Can you shewe that I publish matters only vpon heresay if not blush examinatiō to spred it abroadin print ¶ The answere I must needes confesse that if I did ground my selfe in those matters which I affirme concerning M. Cartwright vpon a bare hearesay or report without further examination I had cause to be ashamed the more shame for this impudent companion to forge and cogge a matter not so much as vpon hearesay but without hearesay and to charge me with 8 This is as true as that my plate if at pawne at a butchers house in Warwike false dice and driuing out of Geneua matters which God let me so euer enioy his fauour as I neuer so much as heard reported my selfe before I read the same in this preface so farre am I from being guiltie of this ridiculous coggery To satisfie those that knowe mee not I answere first that I neuer could play nor vsed to play at dice in my life secondly that I neuer was before the elders of Geneua while I was there thirdly I neuer hated them nor had cause to hate them albeit I enquired whether any such Ecclesiastical officers were euer in the Church or no. fourthly M. Beza and the elders will giue testimonie of the vntruth of this matter and I doubt not but Beza if he could haue said any such thing of me rayling at mèe for no cause would not haue spared mee in this point fiftly M. Francis Brace a gentleman of Worcestreshire and M. Miles Bodley a knowne minister of this Church can testifie that I came from Geneua with credite and with the fauour of Beza and others the chiefe men of that citie for with them I came thence Lastly if any such thing had bene it would haue bene spoken of before this it being 17. yeere since I came from thence this report I thinke M. Throkmorton deuised taking the paterne from himselfe being a cogging felow and driuen or at least running away out of the Parliament house for his lewd misdemeanors the same toucheth me nothing And thus much for this bald matter and shamelesse slander to imitate my friend Iobs words As for those matters that I obiect against M. Cartwright they are of another nature at least grounded vpon sure proofes of records confessions witnesses reasons and such as M. Cartwright examining shall confesse his fellow Prefator to bee vnwise to deuise this matter or to compare it with his as more euidently shall appeare hereafter ¶ The preface And yet this ye shall 1 Name the particulers and examine Master Cartwrights briefe finde to bee an vsuall and ordinary course with M. 2 As honest a man as I. Throk or M. Cartwright and neuer called in question as they haue bene Deane of Exeter in his solemne 3 I enforme against none but deale with them on the way informations and personall pleadings against 4 I speake much against Hacket Copinger Wigginton Vdal Penry Throk Are these your good men goodmen ¶ The answere I would to God the men against whom I plead were so good as they would seeme to be sure I am none are such as they should be for then would not M. Cartwright nor his felowes so violently haue oppugned the Ecclesiasticall regiment of the Church of England nor contumeliously haue disgraced the reformation begunne by her Maiestie nor impugned the princes authoritie so baldly nor railed against the chiefe prelates so impetuously neither was Hacket hanged drawen and quartered nor was Penry hanged nor did Copinger pitifully languish away nor was Iob Throkmorton endited nor were M. Cartwright and his fellowes conuented in the Starre-chamber for their goodnesse Note therefore that if sometimes speaches passe against them it is not for their goodnesse but for other matters and that this Forespeaker hath no reason either to call these goodmen or to condemne those that defend Religion iustice lawes and gouernment against the malcontent mothes and perturbers of this state But whatsoeuer men they be I do neither informe nor begin any quarrell against them I did answere the author of the petition and did not challenge him Likewise I answered M. Iob Throkmorton and the man cannot say but he is answered Neither did I publish any thing against M. Cartwright but diuers yeeres after hee had reuelled against the clergie of the Church Personally I dealt against none but such as had personally dealt against vs and professed themselues enemies of the Church The matters that I charge them withall are built vpon other grounds then hearesay and that shall M. Cartwright well perceiue when we come to refell his friuolous answeres M. Throkmorton hath found so firme reasons alledged against him that he hath giuen ouer to contend vainely with wordes and I doubt not but others vpon triall shall finde the like What an impudent felow then was this to say that my vsual ordinary proofs stand vpon hearesay but if any did yet doe they excell Throkmortons answeres for we cannot hearesay that he hath publikely as yet answered any thing in defence of his calumnious letter so that it should seeme his defence standeth neither by trueth nor hearesay More wisdome therefore were it for him not to name the Deane of Exeter in such scornefull maner when all scorne him rather that was ouerthrowne in his own challenge and neuer shewed himself either at home or abroad to haue any value ¶ The
were the Martinists instruments doe reuell or reuile neuer so much terming thee a drunkard a mad man a traitor a conspirator an innouator or what they will els bee not thou 23 Why then is this prefator thus troubled troubled or dismaied with it but rather reioyce giue God thanks For if thou be able truly to say with the Apostle by honor and dishonor by good report and cuill report as deceiuers and yet true c. then howsoeuer the blood thirsty may 24 As the dogged Martinists did gnash and grind their teeth at thee thy conscience may be at 25 The reprobate past feeling are at peace with themselues peace and thou mayest cheerefully answere thy good friendes that are peraduenture agrieued to see the falshood and indignitie of the impositions laied vpon thee as Socrates 26 Before he reported these words otherwise did to his wife Why my 27 As Socrates spoke to his wife so the puritans speake thus to theirs masters would you haue me suffer guiltie or bee slandered and euill spoken of deseruedly Thus doing what knowest thou whether the Lord who hath the hearts of all men in his hands will 28 If M. Throk M. Cartw. vnderstand this of themselues they doe but dreame make thy condemners to be thy clearers and thy enemies thy friends yea and turne all this storme and tempest of 29 That which is sayd of M. Throk and M. Cartwr shal be prooued to be no vntrueth storme at it as much as they list vntrueths to thy further peace clearing and securitie in the ende for was there euer a more bitter and malicious enemie then Saul was to Dauid and yet we see how the Lord forced this wretched man after many false surmises and vniust ielousies of treason and conspiracie against him to pronounce sentence for 30 These men are more like Saul then Dauid Dauids acquitall in these words thou art more righteous then I. ¶ The answere All this is nothing but a vaine declamation of an idle felow to exhort men to patience wherein the author pleaseth himselfe far better then he contenteth others For what I pray you maketh this to purpose how patiently or impatiently this sect doeth heare their faults reprooued It is written saieth the prefator of Socrates but where I pray you forsooth no where saue in this preface or in some such like trifling ballade or pamphlet For Socrates was not led to execution as this felow that hath the feare of the gibbet still before his eies imagineth but died of poison in his owne house as 1 Iudic. Socrat. Plato and other witnesse who make no mention of the houling of his wife vpon which this supposed discourse is grounded He telleth vs further how the speach of Socrates shallrise vp in iudgement against many puritans which is a very strange case for if speeches rise vp beware of M. Cartwr replies that are so full of wordes without matter and are light like bladders full of wind and likely to flie sarre abroad The rest of this discourse is an idle digression wherein the author falleth into a foolish chafe with those that fret when they are falsly accused and is angry that all his consorts are not so patient as was Anna Dauid Paul and other of Gods seruants but he hath no reason for his felowes bee liker to railing Shimei and such malcontents as Shibah or Ahitophel or like Ieroboam For so these men would haue vs all to worship and fall downe before their church-aldermen which are nothing but a packe of golden calfes like those of Bethel would turne men from a setled state to seeke a new church discipline as Ieroboam turned the children of Israel from the seruice of God to embrace a newe worship in Bethel Further he exhorteth all that loue the eldership to suffer false reproches patiently yet I know none that reprocheth them falsly nor doeth Iob Throkmorton cease whining albeit he can say nothing for himselfe nor can M. Cartwright keepe silence albeit he would seeme patient as appeareth by his briefe euill therefore doeth this exhortation sit in this mans mouth He doeth also exhort men not to suffer as malefactors but this commeth somewhat to late for Iohn Penry and diuers of his consorts haue suffred as malefactors already For answere of the rest of this section I referre you to the notes in the margent of the text a woorthie answere for such vaine wordes ¶ The preface And who knowes whether the Lord may worke the 1 No doubt he would if I had committed like offence like effect and remorse in M. Sutcliffe ere he die euen to force him in like maner after all his 2 Cease your foolish railing prooue that I haue vniustly accused any bundle of outcries and vniust accusations to 3 O fond and simple felow as if I had done like Iob Throk I know not what passe the white stone on the behalfe of the accused and himselfe to pronounce That certainly Thomas Cartwright and 4 What hath Egerton to doe here St. Egerton are more righteous then he and thereupon to adde 5 Speake for your selfe play the foole still I will play no part in your fooleries farther as the same Saul did afterward I haue sinned I haue plaied the foole I haue erred exceedingly in slandring belying the innocent 6 O vaine man to talke thus what is good for others that knoweth not what is good for himselfe Sure I am it were happy for him if he might liue to do this of conscience but whether he doe or no labour thou alwayes good reader so to 7 I walke not then in the way of puritans nor sit not in the seat of scorneful Martinists walke as thou mayest not iustly be touched with any thing that may be a staine to thy holy profession ¶ The answere Here toward the ende of his preface the author forgetteth himselfe and falleth into a dreame wherein he imagineth that in the end M. Cartwright and M. Egerton and I shall become friends which is not vnlikely but not in that sort which hee fancieth but rather when Th. Cartwr and M. Egerton shal haue publikely retracted their errors and acknowledged the wrong they haue done to the church of England which if reason and conscience mooue them not to doe yet I hope law will in the end enforce them But if they refuse to stand to law and wil still rage and raile against the ecclesiasticall state rather will children throw stones at them as against mad men then wise men passe any white stone of absolution on their side As for my part I haue not written any thing cōcerning the cause of this church whereof I need to stand in doubt as they haue done Wherefore the prefator may doe wel to turne his speach to his friends that percase may hearken to his aduise and folow it He knoweth that in this cause I am
breach of duties breach of necessary dueties imposed vpon all Christians or in things which in their nature being 3 Who euer heard of any man slandered for vse of things indifferent beside this abbreuiator indifferent are by him in respect of mine 4 If he haue any royall or honorable estate put on him by the eldership it is more then I knew estate giuen out as things of no good report 5 All these wordes M. Cartwright doth falsly entitle D. Sutcl ffes charge So litle had he to say if he would haue reported my words as I spoke them In the former kinde is his charge of conspiracie with Hacket and Copinger to a mutuall communication with Copinger by word writing and consenting fol. 10. p. 2. and fol. 44. p. 2. and that he did not dissuade him but rather willed him that he should attempt nothing but by aduise and that he should be wise and circumspect Which wordes he setteth downe in a diuers letter from the letter of his owne booke as if they were wordes of a letter of Thomas Cartwright to Copinger fol. 48. p. 2. Matth. Sutcliffe THe Prologue ended now commeth M. Cartwright in to play his part but so vnhandsomely as that euery iudicious reader complaineth that he is greatly abused both by the Prologue and by him The Prologue tolde vs of a man that should play innocency and come in armed with patience but M. Cartwright that should doe the feat faileth in both for neither doth he deale iustly as becommeth innocency nor patiently as armed with patience The first is prooued by diuers reasons thorowout this whole treatise and here especially in that he changeth and falsifieth my words The second is euident in that he crieth out of slaunders and hath neither patience to beare nor wisdome to forbeare Oh that he could aswell endure to heare himselfe reprooued as commended certes these impatient complaints of slanders had not needed but I see men naturally loue to feele themselues clawed and thinke themselues worthy of all praise and M. Cartwright himselfe for all his supposed innocency is not yet sufficiently purged of this humor There is nothing that tendeth to the exalting of his credit and reputation but he embraceth it he is content that 1 Chap. to F. 1585. speciall prayers be made for him A certeine follower of his signifieth that vpon 2 M. R. to F. newes of his deliuerance the society being called together there were Psalmes of thankesgiuing prayers a Sermon made for the same It pleaseth him that his adherents make such account to see him to conferre with him to reade his bookes I would gladly know sayth 3 Gelibr to F. one when I might come from Oxford to London to see M. Cartwright I thanke God sayth 4 Far. to Litl another I haue satisfied in part my longing with conference with M. Cartwright of whom I thinke as she he meaneth the Queen of Saba did of 5 M. Cartwright another Salomon Salomon Fenner writing against M Bridges 6 p. 120. sayth that the forme of gouernement set downe by M. Cartwright is commanded by God he hath percase consulted with God himselfe We want books 7 Gel. to F. an 1586. sayth one Gellybrand whereby we may come to the knowledge of the trueth I meane sayth he T. C. books A braue direction to come to the trueth One Gayton in a letter to Field prayeth him to remember to reserue for him one of the rare birdes books and sayth that well he may be called Cartwright viz. for well writing How birdes may write and how he may allude from the name of Cartwright to cunning writing I forbeare to dispute for it were to no purpose to aske reason of euery action of these men M. Cartwright also doth well like to heare of his owne praises commonly they call him most reuerend as did one 8 Chap. to F. Chapman Gayton calleth him a rare bird that is no owle but some phenix 9 Far. to Littl. one doth esteeme him as the Queene of Sheba did Salomon Wiggington 10 Exam. Wigg confesseth that Arthington Copinger and Hacket the very day that the two first made their Proclamation in Cheapeside tolde him that M. Cartwright had done more against Antichrist then any in the world since the Apostles times but yet that is nothing in respect of that which one writeth to 11 Cholm to Field 1582. Field of that man Sicut discipuli sayth he olim presto habueaunt ipsum dominum ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo praesentem He compareth himselfe and his fellowes to the Apostles and M. Cartwright to Christ and M. Cartwright disdeineth not to be called of his fellow minister lord nay M. Trauerse disdeinfully checketh 12 Trau def p. 32. M. D. Bridges for that he sayd Cartwright without giuing him his titles all this pleaseth and contenteth M. Cartwright reasonably well but now that I do plainly tell him the trueth he is offended and crieth out of slanders Is it not verified in him that is commonly sayd that flatterie procureth friends and trueth enemies Well let vs see what reason he hath to complaine thus grieuously of slanders His slanders sayth M. Cartwright but whose slanders his conscience percase would not suffer him to set downe or if his conscience that is herein hardened would suffer him yet by Gods iust iudgeement he did not to declare the wrong he hath herein done to mee for if by slander hee meane that which in Latine wee call calumniam I haue not slandered him for 13 ff ad S.C. turpil l. 1. calumnia est criminis falsi in alium intentio as hath bene shewed but that which I say either is not criminous as himselfe in part confesseth saying that my slaunders are but reports in matters indifferent or els very true as shal be auerred 14 l. eum ff de iniurits Eum autem qui nocentem infamauit non est bonum aut aequum ob eamrem condemnari If by slander he meane that which we call iniuriam vnde actio iniuriarum oritur then haue I not iniuried him nor slandered him for my writings as they were all begun and published in defence of lawes and orders so was there nothing in them but according to law 15 ff de iniuriis l. iniuriarum Is autē sayth Vlpian qui iure publico vtitur non videtur iniuriae faciendae causa hoc facere iuris enim executio non habet iniuriam but with M. Cartwright and his consortes it is not so cleere for first they haue iniuriously vttered wordes to the disgrace not onely of particulars but also of the whole clergie of this Church of England and therefore by the lawes of the Romanes are condemned and that first for vttering reprochful words next for their infamous writings 16 l. Item apud labeon §. ait praetor ff de iniuriis qui aduersus bonos
desired to be resolued of in the behalfe of one of his acquaintance whether there were any Apostles Prophets and Euangelists in these dayes I answered that those callings ceased many hundred yeeres agoe and as no Apostles were euer hereafter to be looked for so the other 10 If all were ceased how happeneth it that these are sometime expected and why more then Apostles two were not to be expected vnlesse God in the vtter wast and desolation of the Church did extraordinarily raise them vp for th' erection of a 11 Wil you haue Gods Church layd sometime in dust and new made as Adam was of clay church out of the dust and that therfore there was no vse of such men 12 But if the Church lye wast as some of your consorts say it doth in England then you confesse these callings haue place here amongst vs. To a second question how by what markes such a one as thought himselfe one of these might in deed know whether he were so or not I answered that this doubting of the matter was an euident and an inuincible argument that hee was none for that such as haue a calling immediatly from God are not to 13 What is this but to giue the bridle to all fanaticall spirits to range vp and downe without restreint aske counsell of flesh and blood as those that haue the vndoubted testimony of Gods spirit vnto their spirits that they are called of him Whereupon M. Hockenhull telling me that it was Copinger which had entred into such conceit of himselfe I 14 This and that which foloweth would be prooued for Copingers and Throk letters import the plaine contrary desired him to deale with him for disswading him from such frantike opinions which he told me he did accordingly And afterwards somewhile before his lewd practise brake foorth hee admonished some of his kinred before Copinger himselfe that if hee belonged to him he that day before the morow would make him fast either in Bride well or Bedlem After some space of the demand of these questions he sent by M. 15 Then did not M. Hockenhull take him for a Bedlem mate Hockenhull to entreat that he might come to me into the Fleete for that if he might so do hee did not doubt but he would shewe mee such euident tokens of an extraordinary calling as I should haue no power to deny it and that he would for further securitie in this matter come wayting vpon M. Hockenhul in a 16 This shewed hee had some bad practise in hand wherewith hee would not haue M. Cartwright endangered blew coate To whom I returned this answere that if he came to mee I would not once so much as speake with him for that his disease was of that kinde as needed some other remedy then disputation And if he desired to be resolued of the trueth in that matter there were 17 He thought him not vnworworthy to bee conserted with but would not nowe conferre with him himselfe for feare of danger other both for their learning and libertie more fit to deale with him then I was Not long after this the same M. 18 This also sheweth him to be no Bedlem foole Hockenhul told me that because Copinger might not come vnto me he had written me a letter which hee had sent by him To whom I saide I would receiue none from him and so returned his letter without 19 But will you deny that you heard it read or knewe the effect or returned answere all which Copingers letters testifies so much as once taking it into my hand or looking vpon the superscription 20 Nothing lesse Whereby may appeare how vntrue it is that I and Copinger had mutuall conference by word letters to whom in my knowledge I 21 It is ynough if hee wrote to you neuer wrote in my life assured I am neuer since he entred into this wretched practise After this I heard of M. Hockenhull that Copinger would enforme her Maiestie of certeine 22 Why did not M. Cartwright bewray this to some magistrate horrible treasons committed by personages of high calling both in Church and cōmon wealth which as I alwayes esteemed vaine knowing the broken wit of the man so when by report I vnderstood the 23 Then had he intelligence of matters as they passed particulers thereof which argued one 24 Tyndarus imputed also madnesse to one that might bewray him Plaut in captiuis and it is an ordinary practise so to do berened of common sence I desired 25 Why did hee not tell M. Ambrose Copinger of this forsooth hee meant onely to wipe his handes and let the man run on old M. Michel that if Copinger came to the right honourable my very good Lady the Countesse of Warwike for her mediation vnto her excellent Maiesty for such matters as he would deliuer he would signifie that although I knewe her wisdome otherwise able easily without any writing to sound his folly yet that it would please her to take this notice of me which otherwise she might be ignorant of that he was ouertaken with strange conceits of some extraordinary calling and giftes hee was farthest from Againe this whole matter of Hackets conspiracy being by commission to certaine of her Maiesties most honourable counsell and otherwise and graue men commended to be examined I leaue it to be considered whether M. D. Sutcliffe bee so quicke sighted as by himselfe and his 26 Inquisitors finde out heretikes not conspirators inquisitors hauing for any thing I can learne but the 27 I had beside that Iob Throk letter to a Lady same grounds her Maiesties commissioners had to finde out that which men of so great wisdome and circumspection with so great meanes as they had of commandement ouer all that might bring any light vnto that matter could not 28 Of fauour they winked at lesser faults and of grace passed ouer M. Wigginton M. Throkmorton and M Cartwright find out and whether this dealing of his be not some charge of want in them 29 It was neither of these but their fauour and the clemencie of these times either of wisdom in not finding it out or of fidelitie in not once calling me to th'answere of it Moreouer Arthington being compact in this conspiracie with Hacket and Copinger if there were any 30 No man sayeth hand but head hand of mine in that wretched practise in all likelyhood Arthington must needes be 31 Hee as a simple man was an instrument and no deuiser and therefore knew litle priuie vnto it hee is a man aliue let him be examined a man also whom I 32 What neede this to bee repeared that is not to purpose neuer spoke too nor caused to bee spoken with in my life His 33 I do neither accuse him nor reason in this sort reasons to induce his Reader to thinke his accusations to be true
So you count the prince as a simple fellow and as a poore gardener among the magnificoes in your elderships You say he may haue a voyce call a counsell and appoint times to meete but he 1 2. lib. 2. p. 157. 156. may neither iudge nor make orders but ought to confirme and execute the decrees of the coūsels And do not the Papists the like It is most apparant both in our owne countreymens writings as in 2 Devisib monar lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders and 3 Confut. ap p. 304. Harding and in 4 Bellar. de magistr others also If then the Papistes sure you haue no good cōceit of her Maiesties supremacie And this 5 In a certeine epistle concerning M. Cartur reply M. Whitaker and others haue noted before me lest you imagine me to be the author of this charge Fiftly being demaunded by me whether the disciplinarians whose leader and as it were oracle you are do not in effect deny the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church and right to nominate Bishops and to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiasticall courts likewise authoritie to call and gouerne synodes and other prerogatiues and rights giuen to the prince by the statutes and lawes of England and finally whether you doe not endeuour to bring in forreigne lawes iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her Maiesties prerogatiue you answere nothing Which is nothing els but a plaine confession that you dare not directly and in plaine termes declare your opinion concerning the foresaid matters and doe indeede abridge her Maiestie of a great part of her royal authoritie Lastly when you were called vpon your othe in the Starre-chamber to answere to diuers points of her supremacie you shew your selfe to haue a peruerse opinion and therefore dare not answere directly Being 6 Interrog 3. demanded whether you haue not taught or allowed that the prince being neither pastour nor elder is to bee accompted among the gouernours of the Church or among those that are to be gouerned and also whether in a well ordered Church he may ordeine orders and ceremonies therein doe you not say for all answere that you are not bound to answere and do you not persist therein Now how can it be supposed that you allow the prince to be supreme gouernor that will not acknowledge him to be any gouernor of the Church at all or howe can it be said you allow the points of her Maiesties supremacie that will not confesse she hath power to make orders or to ordeine ceremonies for the Church True it is that you offer to sweare to the supremacie so likewise doeth Fecknam I doe here presently saith 1 Fecknam to Bishop Horne Fecknam offer my selfe to receiue a corporall othe vpon the Euangelistes that I doe verily thinke and am perswaded in my conscience that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme and of all other her Maiesties dominions c. and that shee hath vnder God the souereintie and rule ouer all maner persons Ecclesiasticall and temporall And yet he doeth not beleeue the seuerall points of her Maiesties authoritie nor acknowledge them So likewise it may be you will acknowledge her Maiesties authoritie in generall termes and yet wil not acknowledge the seuerall points of her authoritie You doe also offer to sweare to the supremacie but you haue a peruerse interpretatiō by which you ouerthrow all the chiefe points of it in effect Your pretence is the interpretation of the iniunction which kinde of bad dealing and meaning you detected sufficiently in your answere to the 2. interrogatory in the Starre-chamber For being demaunded howe farre foorth you haue affirmed or allowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to berestreined by the iniunctions you say you are not bound to answere By which it appeareth that you thinke the iniunctions restreine her authoritie and that so farre as you dare not tell vs what you thinke Wherefore if in deede your opinion be sound cōcerning her Maiesties supremacie answere these matters directly and tell vs what she may do what she may not doe by the lawes of your discipline and whether you meane to holde your former opinions or renounce them For whatsoeuer you sweare your bookes and the Queenes authoritie giuen her by the lawes of this land cannot stand together M. Cartwright answere being charged to haue highly commended M. Fenners booke which 1 Fenneri Theolog Sac. lib. 5. p. 187. giueth authoritie to inferiour persons to restraine their souereigne as did the ephori in Sparta I 2 You vtterly mistake it take it M. Fenner giueth no such authoritie but onely where the lawes of the land doe establish such an authoritie as the ephori in 3 The ephori were of Sparta the city not Lacedemonia the countrey Lacedemonia had and if M. Fenner did yet how doth my epistle commendatorie set before his booke 4 Because you allowe it and commend it and set it out make me of his iudgement as if he that commendeth a booke iustifieth whatsoeuer is in the booke or as if notwithstanding M. Fenners 5 And more presumption made notorious by his extrauagant diuinity singular learning which for his age many I doubt not both at home and abroad do esteeme you allow it and disallow it to or can you deny that you commended his rules as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 coelestis I 6 CanCanaan might not or doe not differ from him in some things conteined in his booke besides hee himselfe confessing that by oth in the Starre-chamber I haue disauowed the allowance of any such opinion which hee fathereth of M. Fenner let it be considered with 7 With a good minde to shew your contradictions and how hardly you are drawen to obedience what minde he so often rubbeth vpon this point and both for this and the former charge I leaue it to be considered with what 8 What ciuill honesty haue you to charge me with slandering you or vrge me to moue these matters Christian modestie M. Sutcliffe may now the 9 If you quiet not your selues you must heare it the fourth fifth time second and the third time mooue question and that in print of those things to our discredit which her Maiesties most honourable councell was pleased shoulde be 10 In lawe wee conuent you not in writing we may discourse vpon these things as oft as you pretend innocency no further proceeded in and that he is not 11 You doe not content your selues with it albeit neuer so light in respect of your faults contented with that imprisonment we endured which their honours are satisfied with Lastly my iudgement in sundry matters of the discipline 12 That is sufficient excepted wherein differing from sundry learned men in our church I
booke which he alloweth as for M. Fenner let him rest in peace he was towardly but in setting foorth this booke too forward yea and percase M. Cartwrights iudgement therein did not a litle abuse him Thirdly hee goeth on and would haue it considered with what minde I doe so often 4 Belike this point galled him and therefore he would not haue it touched or rubbed rubbe ouer this one point seeing in the Starre-chamber he disauowed this opinion fathered vpon M. Fenner as I doe confesse as if it were sufficient to deny it when a man hath done leudly or els if a man might not note his notorious contradictions that is still opposing himselfe against the state let him therefore rather consider how vnchristianly he hath dealt with many good men and recant the wrong hee hath done in disgracing of this church of England and the state and call backe his leud epistle and that leud booke that hath and doeth still giue occasion of iust offence let him also be sory for his oth so rashly taken and ashamed of his notorious contradiction in this matter finally let him deny that the eldership hath authoritie to correct excommunicate princes and giue vnto them their due and right and he shall neither be further rubbed nor heare more of me Fourthly to presse mee downe with the authoritie of the Starre chamber he goeth on and yet leaueth it to be considered with what christian modestie I may so often and that in print mooue question of things to his discredite which her maiesties most honorable counsell 1 Let him shew this was pleased should be no further proceeded in and that am not content with his imprisonment which their honours are 2 A manifest vntrueth satisfied with as if christians either vsed not or might not talke of matters examined and ended in courts of publike iustice especially so long as they did not controll them or mislike them nay therefore are such matters heard publikely that men may haue notice of them and talke of them and sometimes the sentences and proceedings of iudges are published abroad that men may talke of them that by the punishment of law breakers and disloiall persons others may bee warned and restrained from running into such like disorders Assuredly if the strange opinions and vndutiful behauiour of these men as they are well knowen to the iudges so had bene well knowen to the people men would neuer haue either admired them or folowed them or praised that discipline which they seeke for Neither do I thinke that there is any order in the Starre chamber to the contrary Why doeth not M. Cartwright note it if he know any such matter it was their honors pleasure to shew him great fauour and to accept of a certaine submission he made as I haue heard but that he should be quite discharged I cannot beleeue for M. Cartwright may remember that he standeth 3 His bond is in the court of the commission for causes ecclesiasticall bound to appeare at any time within 20. dayes warning giuen to him which argueth that albeit he be dismissed vpon hope of amendment yet he is not discharged dismissed he is of great fauour through her maiesties exceeding clemencie but if he runne on his olde courses and accuse those of wrong that did him exceeding fauour he may percase vnderstand what formerly he hath deserued and if he be not delt with all iudicially by lawe yet may it please him to giue vs leaue to talke of his misdemeanors extraiudicially vntil such time as he reforme them He is loth to haue his 4 All this sect doeth stand more vpon their credite albeit the same be litle then vpon the trueth of their cause credite touched yet hath not hee spared his superiors against whom hee hath delt why wee should not handle these points there is neither law nor commandement nor reason to the contrary What cause then hath M. Cartwright to insinuate that I haue made a breach of christian modestie in speaking of them may not a man with christian modestie note the faults and errors of these men especially when they goe about to defend them I neuer sought quarell nor entred into these matters before I was thereto vrged and prouoked M. Cartwright I thinke doth know that I did not so much as mooue question of these matters before I was drawen into them by a lewd and contentious companion of that sect that in a booke entituled A petition would needs name me and mooue diuers questions to the disgrace of the present gouernment of the church of which I am a minister and therefore deepely therein interessed and to the discredite of diuers good men and my good friends nor before that Iob Throk a great champion of puritane chiualrie and a noble pillar of Martinisme would needes charge me with slandering of the whole brotherhood of deformation and goe about to iustifie the chiefe heads and maintainers of that faction being then named in print and railed at in print and called foorth in print to iustifie what I had sayd how could I with any honestie forbeare to answere in print nay so farre am I from infringing any point of christian modestie in this behalf that I should greatly haue offended on the other side if being charged with diuers bad opinions and misdemeanors I should haue neglected them and held my peace Ruffinus doeth not thinke him to be a christian that being noted of heresie doeth dissemble the matter and hold his peace and Lawyers say quod negligere famam crudele est hee that striketh must not thinke much to haue his blowes warded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saieth Achilles Iliad 1. but these felowes when like Thersites they haue railed and spoken euill of others yea of princes doe disdaine to heare themselues iustly reprooued and most arrogantly disdaine to haue themselues touched most vaine therefore and causelesse is this complaint But I deale very hardly as he thinketh and vnchristianly that am not content with his imprisonment which satisfied their lordships which is a matter more then he knoweth sure more then I can learne or beleeue for albeit of fauour it pleased them and of their great benignitie and clemencie to inflict this punishment only yet how knoweth he that they were satisfied therewith especially seeing they are not yet discharged but were it true yet what a ridiculous point is it to thinke that men may not speake of matters for which malefactors are imprisoned especially when they or their friends doe repine and grudge at their punishment and pretend hard dealing and iniustice as the petitioner and Iob Throk did in the behalfe of M. Cartwr and others neither was the imprisonment of M. Cartwr so grieuous or costly to him that either himselfe or others should complaine or lament for the remembrance of it So soft was his lying so trim was his lodging so pleasaunt was his company so daintie was his fare so great were
12 Odious railing a thing put among things indifferent odious and 13 Do I say you are ignorant in railing ignorant railing c. I referre my selfe to indifferent iudgement vpon the bookes which are extant Matth. Sutcliffe The beginning of M. Cartwr answere to this charge hath no sense to be picked out of it which I take to be the correctours fault and so let it passe his meaning is that I can not shew either in his reply or other treatise of his that he hath so litle knowledge in diuinity as to say that the extemporall prayers of any in these dayes are vttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration wherein he doth himselfe wrong to call his knowledge of diuinitie in question for to say what I finde if he approue M. Fenners booke so farre as his epistle commendatory pretendeth his skill in diuinitie is nothing singular the same doth appeare by strange points holden in his replies but better should I iudge if leauing his busie kinde of dealing against the state hee had written any booke concerning points of faith Yea in this very point in hand I do wonder how he hath here slipped for being charged by me for better liking of extemporall prayers then any prescript forme of prayers as is true indeed and shall be verified against him here very ignorantly he falleth into the contrary errour and sayth hee is not so ignorant of diuinity as to affirme that the extemporall prayers of any in these dayes are vttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration which is to deny the working of the holy Ghost in the prayers of the godly and to contrary the holy apostle which 1 Rom. 8. sayth that the holy Ghost helpeth our infirmities when we know not what to pray as wee ought and if our prayers were not ayded by Gods holy spirit they would not please God so that to charge him herewith is no slander nor if I should so say is it criminall to say that extemporall prayers of godly men deuoutly and discreetly conceiued are vttered by the inward motions of Gods holy spirit inspiring them but indeed I do not charge him herewith but say that M. Cartwr doth commend extemporall prayers as vttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration which is true for whereas the authours of the admonition do 2 Admonit to the Parliam say that in the time of the apostles the minister spowred forth hearty supplications to the Lord as the spirit moued them M. Cartwright doth take on him the defence of this admonition beside that for my part I neuer heard M. Cartwright refuse to vse extemporall prayers and I doubtnot but he thought he prayed by the motion or assistauce of Gods spirit yea and all the brotherhood as they are mistermed doeth vse long extemporall prayers both before meat and after meat especially at great feasts for then they make longest prayers now they doubt not but they pray as the spirit giueth them vtterance although indeed some of their speaks do rather sauour of the pot then of any goodnesse finally all the Baroists vpon these foundations and the common practise of extemporall prayers haue condemned all prescript formes of prayer which declareth that they vnderstood M. Cartwright as I do Secondly he asketh me in what time place and in whose hearing he could scarcely be induced to like of a prescript forme of prayer and saith that if these circumstances had bene set downe the vntruth of my allegation would haue appeared and that his continuall practise in the ministery doth witnesse against me Wherein I cannot chuse but wonder that hee should so much forget himselfe and wilfully abuse his reader For first he may remember that the admonition which he taketh on him to defend doth holde that in the primitiue Church the ministers were not tyed to any forme of prayers inuented by man And that my L. of Canterbury refuting this error he goeth about to 1 1. reply p. 106. answere his reasons and yeeldeth not till afterward so that it appeareth he was not easily induced he may also remember that hee would 2 In the end of his first reply haue all Apostolicall orders now receiued and vsed Beside that his continual practise is to vse no prescript forme of prayers but such as himselfe deuiseth and so do the whole race of these sectaries yea and so often times haue they bene heard to commend extemporall formes and to dislike prescript formes that I wonder how it cōmeth to passe that M. Cartwright should here mainteine the contrary But let vs see his reasons First saith he my continuall 3 A weake reason for his practise is not alwayes according to his opinion and doctrine He was wont to speake against dispensations and non residence and yet now is non resident from his charge and prayed to be dispensed with as they say practise in the ministerie doth witnesse against it a matter notoriously vntrue For as long as he was in Cambridge hee prayed as it pleased himselfe and vsed formes by himselfe deuised And so like wise doe all his followers and those haue I heard most cōmended which preaching continually yet euery day vsed new formes And albeit M. Cartwright did read prayers at Antwerp and Middleborough out of the booke as hee saith yet that doth not shew that those prayers were prescribed to him neither were his formes of prayer at Warwike such as this Church of England prescribed but such as himselfe deuised Yea although he said the Lords prayer yet in that sort it was not to him prescribed as he said it I beseech you therefore iudge what a hainous slander this is to say that M. Cartwright scarce could bee induced when time was to like of a prescript forme of prayer when hee is not able to shew that either by doctrine or example he approued prayers publikely prescribed nor would euer suffer himselfe to bee tyed to the orders of the Church of England And thus much is sufficient for answere of his slanders supposed to be published by me against him concerning breach of necessary duties Wherein it may clearely appeare that either hee doeth lewdly collect that which was not meant or seeke to shunne that which cannot bee auoyded Did you euer before this heare of a man so slandred with trueth and matters not criminall but belike the man was podagricall and cried before we came neere him Now wee are to proceed to examine his second branch of slanders concerning matters indifferent the which is as strange as the other so strange are they both that in no good authour I euer read the like But before we beginne a word or two concerning that wrong that M. Cartwright thinketh to be done to him being charged as he saith with odious rayling which yet I trust hee will not count slander both for that it is left out of his diuision and for that it is most euident and true That he raileth vnciuily these particulers testifie his aduersaries