which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry
⧠A short Reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance and foule errors vpon which their whole building is founded By George Gyfford Minister of Gods holy worde in Maldon Imprinted at London by Thomas Orwin for Tobie Cooke and are to be solde at the Tygers head in Pauls Churchyard 1591 To the Reader THere were good Christian Reader foure haynous accusatioÌ„s laid against the Church of England for which the accusers haue condemned her all her publique assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Idolatrons synagogues of Sathan I shewed how falsely they doo accuse and howe presumptuously agaynst God they doo condemne And that indeede they are the very same with the auncient Donatists They haue replyed and published in print their defence but their bookes are intercepted yet some few haue escaped and are dispersed among theyr fellowes Wherefore I hold it needfull to publish some answere not dealing with euery error and absurditie for that would aske the trauaile of some yeares but onely with the chiefe grounds of their Schisme In this I trust euery simple man that hath a Christian heart shall see the effectuall power of Sathan when he turneth himselfe into the likenes of an Angell of light to seduce ignorant men which are lifted vp in their mindes with opinion of their knowledge For being men vnlearned onely some little froth excepted I speake thus because they peruert that little which they haue read in other means writings in sundry poynts yet as if they were sent from heauen with reuelations or as great Apostles they take vpon them to confute and controll and condemne all Churches and all the most worthy Instruments which GOD hath raysed vp in these last times For knowe this good Reader that the foure accusations which they haue brought agaynst the Church of England to condemne her â—â—â— also though with some differences brought against all Churches in Europe and that in expresse wordes in these their last bookes For the prescript formes of prayers which all the Reformed Churches doo vse they condemne as most horrible and 〈◊〉 blasphemie The people they say are prophane multitudes They say that in all Europe in all these knowen partes of the world there is no minister of Christ The gouernment by Elderships they condemne as a most proude thing as being without any warrant of Gods word Doo but readeouer these fewe things which I haue noted out of their bookeâ— and iudge how fit they be for such a work as they haue taken in hand whether it be like that GOD hath sent them euen as it were Moses and Aaron to conduct his people out of Aegipt from vnder the bondage of Pharaoh for so they take it as appeareth by their owne wordes speaking of those which cleaue vnto them Many they see by Gods mightie hand say they escaped and marching with the banner of the Gospell displayed before all the inchaunters of Aegipt and Pharaoh his troupes pag. 5. of the Epistle And if it seeme lost time to stand vpon such grosse things yet take this profit as to see how needfull it is not to be high minded and presumptuously bolde in Gods matters but to feare and tremble with Humilitie To Master Barrow and Master Greenwood YE complaine much of hard dealing offered you and say ye are blasphemed with odious tearmes And if ye doo erre your desire is to be reduced by a Christian manner It is certaine when men are cleane awâ—ye in simplicitie the matter toucheth but themselues they are to be dealt withall without seeking their disgrace But when they be publike and notorious seducers defacing Christs Ministers and many poore sheepe of Christ are in hazard to be spoyled They that take it to be vncharitable dealing to disclose and to paynt out such seducers in their colours and to disgrace them vtterly to the end that the simple may not be spoyled by theÌ„ as a praie doo want some iudgement For as it is Christian charitie in the Shepheards to deale meekely with the sheepe so is it high treachery and vnfaythfull dealing to Christ and his Church when the VVoolfe dooth come in sheepes clothing not to pluck it off and to let the sheepe see that he is a VVoolfe VVhy else did our Sauiour call the Pharisies hypocrites Serpents and generations of Vipers VVhy sayd S. Paule of the false Apostles beware of dogges Ye haue drawen many into an outragious presumption against God and his people flat contrary to the rules of his holy word as shall appeare in the discourse Ye hauerent out of the hearts of many all reuerence and loue towards the preachers of the Gospell and led them into such a presumptuous opinion of their owne vnderstanding that if they become not heretikes yet experience doth teach that many of them growe into irreligious prophanenes Master Barrow and Master Greenwood I doo not know your persons and I protest vnto ye there is no priuate thing hath moued me to seeke your disgrace but indeede the care of Christs sheepe And let it appeare by the things which follow whether I haue done ye any wrong A short Replie vnto the last printed Bookes of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatistes in England I Did lay to your charge M Barrow and Master Greenwood a matter very haynous and detestable yea most odious in the sight of euery good man as namely intollerable pride presumption and wicked intrusion into Gods office for that ye vtterly condemne and abandon all our assemblies as haynousty faulty and so wilfully obstinate in such principall transgressions as that they haue forfayted the couenant and are separated from the fayth and communion of Christ I set downe reasons from Gods word to conuince yee in this that if it pleased God ye might repent for this sauage crueltie by which ye indeuour to rend and teare vp all the Lords tender plants If not yet that others might see tremble at your inordinate and outragious boldenes Vnto this ye haue replied stifly affirming and labouring to maintayne that ye haue rightly condemned and cast foorth our assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Synagogues Adding moreouer that ye lie in prison as Christs poore afflicted seruants the Lords witnesses agaynst vs that your bonds and sufferings are glorious and that I as a wicked false Prophet and as a marked seruant of Antichrist haue vncharitably reuiled ye both for those former wordes as also that I that tearme you Donatistes Schismatikes c. If ye be Christs seruants and haue iustly accused condemned and cast forth doing no more that Christ hath sent ye for and authorised ye to doo then haue I vnchristianly and as a false Prophet indeede reuiled ye and your glorious sufferinges But then take this withall by the way that the Donatists in olde time and the Annabaptists of late daies were Christs poore afflicted
by true repentance Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow Alas poore creatures how much is your siely blindnes to bee pitied that can set down things so directly contrary at the same instant yet espieit not for you say that Circumcision in their Apostasie was no true Sacrament vnto them neither sealed the Lordes couenant vnto them in that estate And yet you say it was true Circumcision concerning the outward cutting Likewise you say that Baptisme in the poperie cannot bee saide a true Sacrament or seale of Gods couenant vnto them And yet concerning the outward washing ye confesse it true Baptisme Is not this all one as if a man should say it is the true sacrament and seale of Gods couenant it is no true Sacrament nor seale of Gods couenant I pray you M. Barrow is not the outward washing the whole Baptisme and the whole seale of Gods couenant Was not the outward cutting the whole circumcision and the whole seale of Gods couenant And if the outward washing be the whole Sacrament and the whole seale of Gods couenant as indeede with the word it is for the inward grace is no part of the Sacrament but we may say that this inward grace is the thing represented and sealed by the Sacrament Then when you say concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme doo you not affirme the whole Sacrament and so the whole seale of Gods couenant to be true But you say it is no true seale vnto them in their Apostasie or it doth not seale Gods Couenant vnto them in that estate but when the abuse thereof is purged away by true repentance What absurde speeches be these can a man deuife more grosse folly the outward true Sacrament is the true seale of Gods couenant euen vnto those which be hypocrites and vtterly voyde of fayth which haue it For if we shall say it is no true Sacrament or no seale of Gods couenant or that it doth not seale Gods couenant but vnto those which haue the inward grace the efficacie and fruite thereof then was it sometimes no true Sacrament which the Apostles themselues did administer because there were some vnto whome they did administer both the holy Baptisme and the Lords Supper which had not the inward grace And if the Sacraments be not the true seales of Gods Couenant euen vnto those which haue no fruite thereby how should the receiuers which are vtterly vnworthie be guiltie of the body and blood of our Lord Also when a man doth receiue Baptisme which is alwayes the seale of Gods couenant and is voyde of fayth and receiueth it at their handes which doo mixe it with sundry additions and corruptions and after commeth vnto true faith he himselfe is purged by his fayth and hath the vse of that seale which hee had before but without fruite we cannot say as you doo but with most wicked and foule absurditie that the Sacrament it selfe was a false Sacrament and now through sayth is purged and became a true Sacrament That which is the Lordes doth stand in it selfe pure and vndeâ—iled euen when corruptions bee added The Wheat in it self is as pure lying among the Chaffe as when it is purged from the Chaffe The golde and siluer in themselues be as pure when the rust is vpon them as when it is scowred off If a thing in the mixture of corruptions haue not a true being ye cannot by purging bring it to haue a true being And when you say that concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme ministred in popery which is as much as I haue shewed as to say it is a true sacrament concerning the whole because the outward washing is the whole and therefore all that Iohn the Baptist taketh to himselfe is this I baptize ye with water Doo you not acknowledge a ministrie in popery Will you say it is concerning the outward washing true Baptisme by whomesoeuer it bee done Nay you say where there is no true ministrie there is no true Sacrament Then where there is no part of a true ministrie there is no part of a true Sacrament In your other booke Master Barrow which you tearme a briefe discouerie of the false Church from the 102. page vnto 121. you make a large discourse about this point taking vppon you to bee a stickeler betwéene Master Doctor Some and the Scholler of Oxenford writing against him in defence of Master Penrie There you lay about you with your woodknife vpon both parties Master Doctor Some holding the Baptisme administred in the popery to be true Baptisme alleaging that Master Caluine held so as in déede all the Churches and all the most excellent and worthy lights which God hath raised vp in these last times doo hold the same with sound reasons from the Scripture you scoffingly tearme him a great Clarke and say that in certaine marginal notes added to his booke this inconuenience was moued vnto his further consideration how hee would auoyde the blowe of flat Schisme Also you say he was friendly aduised to spare this deepe diuinitie deriued from Master Caluine and others of this time leaft hâ—e should open such a gappe to the Papistes as neither the Church of England nor Geneua nor any other that hold this opinion shall euer be able to shut for if it be true Baptisme deliuered in the Church of Rome then will it follow that the Popish priests be true ministers And then may the seale of the couenant be giuen to open Idolaters then dooth Gods couenant of peace belong to the babilonish harlot then hath Christ many bodies or else cannot three so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England the Church of Geneua all or any two of them I will not say any one bee true Churches TheÌ„ he may be an husband where his wiues rule Infinit other absurdities would then proue lawful And let me adde yet this vnto the rest if the Baptisme of the Church of Rome be a true Sacrament then haue they one true Sacrament and another false Thus you wound the one party that is Master Doctor Some Then touching the Scholler of Oxenford hée is blamed for that he alleageth for his patron Master Doctor Fulke to proue that the Baptisme administred in popery is no true Baptisme And he is set to counteruaile Master Caluin as his equall in all learning Grieuous absurdities you shew in déede which must néeds follow from the opinion of the foresaid Scholler Touching the comparison betwéene Master Fulke and Master Caluine for my part I am not so learned as that I can bring a full measure to measure them iustly withall I know not what might slip from Doctor Fulke in any part of his writings vpon some occasion which may séeme as though he fauored that opinioÌ„ but this I know that sundry times crauing his iudgement in that matter he held it to be true Baptisme which hath béen administred in the popery And what a thing is this Master Barrow that
in England and planted a true Church And therefore if you deale rightly you must proue against vs. I haue shewed that popery did not vtterly destroy the visible Church And there be at this day multitudes that so walke in the holy fayth that no man is able to accuse them And therefore if either all or the most part of Schismatikes were not obstinate cauillers their mouthes might be stopped for euer Thus much might fuffice agaynst that you affirme our people neuer had any entrance to be vnder the couenant and so to stand the visible Church but to be as heapes of prophane heathen but that your matter reacheth further then against the assemblies in England condemning other Churches which professe the holy Gospel And least some may think that in this poynt I charge ye but by some hard collection in so horrible presumption as to condemne all Christian Churches I will recite the wordes which you haue set downe in your other booke pag. 33. where after long discourse agaynst the reasons which Master Caluine vseth both out of the olde and new Testament to proue that neither the worship it selfe nor the faythfull are defiled by the company of the open wicked you speake thus This and such like detestable stuffe hath Master Caluine in his ignorance partly to confute that damnable sect of Annabaptists which fantastically dreame vnto theÌ„selues a Church without spot in this life and for euery transgression that ariseth are ready to leaue forsake the felowship of the Church without due and orderly reproofe Partly also is this stuffe brought to defend his owne rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneua whilest hee at the first dash made no scruple to receiue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the Church to administer the Sacraments vnto them which confuse route could not fit with Christs heauenly gouernement neither could it by any meanes agree vnto them in this estate But that monstrous disorders and haynous enormityes dayly ensued thereof whereby this their Church became a iust reproch vnto all men euen to those wicked Heretikes yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable president and pernitious example euen vnto all Europe to fall into the like transgression as the confused estate of all those regions where the Gospell is thus disorderly taught declareth Let the Reader here consider Master Barrow what a worthie Champion you â—re become for the Papists for Heretickes and Schismaticks agaynst all the Churches which professe the Gospell and agaynst all their teachers What was Master Caluine to bee regarded if he were so ignorant so rash and so disorderly in his doings How miserable was his case that he must be so pernitious an example to the ruine of many What is or what hath the Church of Geneua been and together with the assemblies of England all Churches in Europe but heapes of prophane multitudes no better then heathen or dogs if your words be true True Christ they haue none for they fit not his gouernment nor his gouernment them as you say But Master Barrow as the Churches and their ministers haue been able haue iustly defended themselues though not from all faults because there is no Church so pure agaynst the wisest and learnedst reuiling Rabsakaes the Hereticks and Schisinaticks so must you thinke that they shall be able to withstand two or thrée which are so ignorant in some grounds of religion as that their bookes are a bundle or rather a dunghill of absurdities Whom shal you euer perswade that hath any true light that your knowledge so farre passeth the learned of all Churches Were it not honour enough for ye to triumph ouer the ministers of the Church of England whom so often in disdayne you terme learned Priests but ye must be generall conquetors like Alexander the great Faine you would seeme to bee farre from the Annabaptists but how néere you are vnto them euen in their tents all that haue skill doo see Well then to conclude this poynt he that will finde a true Church with which he may ioyne himselfe he must not seeke it in the publike assemblies either in England Scotland Geneua or any region of Europe for by your iudgement they be all prophane heapes but he must seeke the fellowship and ioyne with the Donatists of England Now to the second part of the assumption where you say that the Church of England hath power to cast foorth none by excommunication I am of the minde that Christ hath giuen such a power to his Church and also doo take it that the Church of England is not boyd thereof But you condemne all excommunication which is not executed by an Eldership and the people of euery particular assemblie If excommunication be onely to bee so executed then how could Esra with the Elders and Princes of Israel publish an excommunication generall against euery one that should not within three dayes come vp to Ierusalem Esra 10. vers 8. And where doo you proue that excommunication is to be executed vpon any but for contumacie and contempt of the Church Doo you hold that a man which doth repent him for his adulterie these heresie or such like and is cast downe in sorrowe is yet to be deliuered vp to Satan If not why doo you vpbrayd that there is none cast foorth among vs but for contumacie In the next place you take vpon you to confute and cut downe foure false expositions as you say of Math. 18. vers 17. Tell the Church The first sort take the word Church for the Pope the second for the Archbishops and Bishops which exercise this power for the whole Church the third for the companie of the Elders apart from the people which they call the Consistorie the fourth are they which would haue the people excommunicate without the Elders The two first sorts that is the Pope and the Bishops doo depend you say vppon one line and build their preheminence vpon the promise made to the Apostle Peter Math. 16. vers 18. 19. where the keyes of the kindome of heauen are giuen him And vpon the Apostle Paul his example who deliuered Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Satan Timoth. 5. 10. You are so learned and skilfull Master Barrow yea so trustie and true that wee must holde them for Oracles that doo proceede out of your mouth although indeed they be neuer so false as shall appeare Touching the place in Mat. 16. for the keyes giuen vnto Peter it is agreed vpon by all parts that there is a power giuen to be exercised in the Church The disagréement is chiefly about this to whom it is giuen The Pope with his adherents sayth it was giuen onely vnto Peter and his successors He sayth further that Peter was Bishop of Rome that there is his chaire and that this power is annexed to that chaire and so the Pope alone is to haue it and from him all other are to participate which
seruants Gods witnesses that the Churches and their ministers did vnchristianly reuile them and their glorious sufferings For I haue giuen yee none other tearmes then the Churches gaue them And if in the chiefe poynts of Donatisme ye be not full Donatists and so holde sundry poyntes of Annabaptisme being fallen into their tents and as outragiously fighting against all Churches and with the same weapons that they did and with as blinde fury condemning them as those other let me be accounted for no better indéede than a lying Prophet Your words are many and great are your outcries but let vs see how well ye defend and cleare your selues by them from this most wicked intrusion into Gods office I set down first against ye that he doth wickedly and proudly thrust himselfe into Gods office which taketh vpon him to iudge and condemne any one man to be no true Christian which holding the place and dignitie of a brother in Gods Church and professing the fayth soundly studieth to please God for the common errors and frailties vnto which euen the most perfect are subiect because the holy scriptures speaking of the regenerate haue these sayings We know but in part 1. Cor. 13. who vnderstandeth his errors Psal 19. And in many things wee sinne all I am 3. Then how much more intollerable is their wicked presumption and intrusion into Gods office which take vpon them vtterly to condemne as quite separate from Christ all the assemblies in a kingdome which professing the Gospell haue many particuler members in them that earnestly indeuour to please God and are not spotted with any grosse errors or notorious offences Then further doe I alleadge that as a brother hath his place and dignitie in a Christian assemblie so our Church of England hath her place and dignitie among all the godly Churches which for the fayth that shee doth together with them publiquely professe and sincerely in all the principles and grounds of the holy Christian religion doe not only allow her the place but also do regarde and loue her giuing vnto her the dignitie of a sister yea euen of a mother in Israel because shee hath not beene barren but hath brought forth many deare children to God and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome Ye haue not Master Barrow answered one worde vnto al this but haue with déepe silence slipt past it But ye say He that is in his conscience conuinced of errors and doth persist in them is wilfully obstinate and so euidently declareth that he hath no faith And in this case yee say is the Church of England it holdeth errors and is conuinced in them and yet persisteth to defend and teach the same and therefore it is quite seperated from Christ Agaynst this I set downe that a brother offending is not to be iudged so wilfully obstinate as that he is to be cast forth and condemned to be but as an heathen because he is conuinced of his sinne and error by priuate admonitions and doth persist but when the admonition and censure of the Church is despised For our Sauiour sayth not If hee will not heare thee count him as an heathen or if thou take one or two with thee and â—e will not heare them But if he will not heare the Church then let him be vnto thee as an heathen Math. 18. This ye haue not answered for ye can shew no place in Gods word where this power is giuen to priuate men but onely to the Church And yet persist in this most horrible intrusion forgetting the precept Judge not that ye be not iudged Math 7. and he that condemneth his brother condemneth the lawe and thou condemnest the law thou art not an obseruer of the law but a Iudge Iam. 4. vers 11. And therefore we must heare enter into a larger discourse about it I will first sâ—t downe that which yee bring to mayntayne your doing We doubt not say you neither euer thought but the best Church that consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors yea wee doubt not but that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as he teâ—meth fundamentall the holding whereof should vtterly subuert the faith As in the Church of Corinth Galatia and Asia there were c. But this wee holde withall that no true Church or Christian will maintaine any sinne or error when it is euidently shewed and conuinced vnto them by the word of God c. To your second charge we answer that wee haue learned to put difference betwixt error and heresie All good men as is sayd doo and may erre but no good man will defend or persist in his error when it is shewed and conuinced vnto him Obstinacie ioyned vnto error after it is duely conuinced maketh heresie Further we say that any error being obstinatly holden and taught after it is duely reprooued and conuinced vnto him maketh an heretick and heresie in that partie or in that congregation that so holdeth and teacheth it doth separate from the faith and communion of Christ Wherefore we can but wonder at your ignorance who stand for a teacher in your Church and yet hold some errors obstinatly held and taught agaynst the trueth of GOD not to be heresies or at the least not to be fundamentall c. In these words Master Barrow which I doubt not ye will acknowledge lieth the whole defence and cléering of your selues from that wicked and presumptuous intrusion into Gods office which I haue layd to your charge I am sure that in your imagination ye vtter in them most diuine vndoubted principles or els how could yee bring in your conclusion of such wonder at mine ignorance standing for a Teacher in our Church Then must we stand and wonder each at other for I doo indeed greatly wonder to see how strong the illusions of Satan be when he is turned into the likenes of an Angell of light that such men as you taking vpon ye not to stand as teachers in some particular Churches but to controule all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue been since the Apostles as if yee were sent from heauen with speciall knowledge aboue all others should in so fewe words bewray so much confused palpable ignorance and absurd errors In very deede vnder this streame of words lieth one of the chiefe rocks vpon which ye are runne and against which ye cause many a simple soule to dash with great hazard leading them into the same wicked presumption agaynst God which your selues are fallen into The reader shall see plainly that here is no cléering your selues from that foule intrusion into Gods office vnlesse the heaping vp of errors may be déemed cléering I will begin first with the difference which ye say ye haue learned to put betwixt error and heresie The onely difference which ye make is the obstinate persisting in it and teaching it after it is conuinced vnto him
that erreth Which is nothing els indeede but confusedly in stead of putting difference betwixt error and beresie to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in simplicitie and an hereticke In deed because S. Paule sayth That an hereticke is peruerted and sinneth condemned of himselfe Tit. 3. And that such cause offences and diuisions contrary to the wholesome doctrine which we haue learned Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnlesse they bee conuinced and obstinatly despise the iudgement of God and the iudgement of the Church conuincing them by the light of the word and seeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it selfe an heresie vnlesse it light into such a man as obstinatly will holde and teach it Or that euery error euen the least by obstinacie of man ioyned with it becommeth heresie Then you say thus in effect euery error is an heresie no error is an heresie This Master Barrow is your déepe skill which ye boast of that ye haue learned for if the man put the difference by his obstinacie it must needes be so Then let me aske ye where ye haue learned yâ— to deny the vnitie of the Godhead is not an heresie or yâ— trinitie of persons in the same or to deny that Christ is God or that he is man vnlesse the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obstinate Are not these and such like heresies in themselues although the men that erre in them be not conuinâ—â—â—â—â—t hold them ignorantly Agayne shew vs where ye haue â—â—â—rned that euery error euen to the least being in an hereticke becommeth an heresie Thus may the reader see how confusedly ye haue put that to distinguish errors which doth but distinguish betweene the men that doo erre In the next place where you say that the error must be duely conuinced vnto the conscience of the man that erreth before he can be so wilfully obstinate as doth separate him from the faith and from the communion of Christ ye speake some trueth but ye speake ye knowe not what For it ye could see it is so farre from cléering ye from presumptuous intrusion into Gods office that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye and your former words and somewhat which ye write elsewhere in this booke being laid with it becommeth a very snare for to hold ye Ye haue accused the Church of England condemned and cast her foorth for wilful obstinacie as quite separated from Christ now let vs see how duely ye haue conuinced out whole Church all the assemblies and all the particular members in the same and found them hereticks First remember your owne words in this place that ye doubt not neither euer thought but that the best Church which consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors and that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as I terme fundamentall c. Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worship in our people in our Ministrie and gouernment Ecclesiasticall albeit in the whole course of your writings your speaches be merueilous excessiue yet in the 180 181 182. pages of this your booke agaynst me ye plainly confesse them to bee such as right excellent Christians haue ignorantly erred and dyed in For speaking of those which suffered death for religion in our Church ye call them godly Martyrs saying that ye doubt not of their happie and blessed estate all their sinnes and these false offices and ministrie which they executed in their ignorance among the rest being forgiuen them These be your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe You acknowledge them to bee godly blessed Martyrs they erred you say in these things but of simplicitie through ignorance If those principall men were ignorant in these matters then is it no meruaile if all the rest in the land were ignorant in them which imbraced the Gospell Vpon this it followeth that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church vntill such time as she was duely conuinced of â—er errors and found obstinate And if she hath not been duely conuinced and found in such wilfull obstinacie as doth quite separate from the faith and from the communion of Christ then is she still or may bee the true Church hauing it may bee for ought that you knowe and there is no likelihood to the contrarie many thousands in her which are readie to shed their bloud for the holy Gospell of Christ And then how wicked and how accursed is your presumption in condemning her vtterly Nay say you but she is conuinced and all your assemblies and found so wilfully obstinate in maintayning her errors euen against her knowledge that she hath forfaited the couenant and is separated from the communion of Christ This is your bare accusation you may not cary away the matter so for then indeede ye may easily cleare your selues from wicked intrusion into Gods office but wee must examine 〈◊〉 ye graunt there must be a due conuincing first what it 〈…〉 be duly conuinced then when and by whome she hath been â—â— such sorte or so duly conuinced as ye charge her and yet found obstinate This is the rule that one brother offending is not to loose the dignitie and place of a Christian and to be reputed as an heathen vntill such time as he bee conuinced by the Church and found so obstinate that he doth despise her iudgement and authoritie This is the onely due conuincing and here is the onely power to east foâ—rth as heathen a man in some offence conuinced And shall not a Church haue as great priuiledge as a man Is it not more then absurd to say one man cannot be cast foorth as an heathen for obstinacie in some offence agaynst priuate admonitions but whole Churches may All the true Churches haue conuinced the Church of Rome and condemned her as obstinate not in some light offences in which true Christians may erre but as most blasphemous and Idolatrous against the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion teaching that no Christian man ought to ioyne with her But what Churches are they which haue conuinced the Church of England of such errors and found her so obstinate that they haue condemned her and willed all men to forsake her O M. Barrow you shall finde that all the godly Churches are so farre from this that contrariwise they acknowledge her for a sister Looke then againe vpon your horrible presumption and see who hath giuen you such power aboue and agaynst all Churches If ye minde obstinately to persist in your euill without warrant and euen agaynst this manifest worde of God being much better ye should fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes and seeke for pardon ye haue no way to shift or to colour your wickednes but this that men may bee conuinced of error by particular persons and that so
hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
you some speciall reuelation or doe yee knowe the secrets of all mens hearts You sée by the Church in IerusaleÌ„ that men may ignorantly remayne still in error if the blessed Apostles themselues should lay downe matter against the same vnto them But to conuince you I may reason from your own wordes for Master Barrow if that be true which you holde touching gouernment ecclesiasticall which is the chiefe matter in question the Church of England cannot bee conuinced by that which either our owne or men of other Churches haue set foorth We haue béene perswaded that the gouernement ecclesiasticall ought to be by one of these two that is to say either by Bishops or by presbyteries and you condemne both The gouernement by Bishops ye tearm Antichristian And of those which stand for a gouernement by Presbyteries thus you write pag. 189. of your other booke These men would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despight of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and sensuallity of their fleshly hearts most miserablie innonâ—ate corrupt and peruert Also in the pag. 166. you terme it a deuilish forgerie In this booke agaynst mee you call it a presumptuous 〈…〉 yee say it hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth the whole order and communion of the Church c. pag. 79. Is it so Master Barrow then how hath our Church béen conuinced in conscience by those which bring no warrant of Gods word for that which they would set vp being vndoubtedly perswaded as I haue sayd that one of the two ought to be a third as yet not hauing been shewed how haue they I say by your speach been so duely conuinced And further it may bee sayd which is of great force agaynst ye that if all the learned men in other Churches and those in our Church which stand for the gouernment by presbyteries haue erreâ— so grofely as you accuse them why may not they that maintaine the other gouernment erre also of ignorance Master Barrow these poore shifts will not defend ye before God but that ye haue intruded into his seate vnlesse you haue surer ground that all bee conuinced For what if some should be conuinced in some matters yet wheÌ„ they protest the contrary who can iudge them but God And now seeing it hath not been done by these therefore it resteth onely vpon your selues let vs come to see what you haue done It cannot bee but you haue conuinced all you haue opened so many matters Yea but before your matters came to the sight and knowledge of the thousand man I might say almost to the sight of any ye had abandoned and condemned all without any order What a conuincing is this And when they be come abroad I meane your writings though not vnto the hands of all nor yet of the greater part wee must vppon your bare word contrary to our owne knowledge admit many foule and false accusations we must vpon your warrant allowe many fantasticall opinions we must condemne all the Churches and iustifie the Donatists and Annabaptists or els we cannot he by you conuinced Your outragious dealing being such as almost hath not been seene which shall appeare by laying open somewhat of your bookes and your grosse errors with palpable ignorance to be wondered at euen of the vnlearned how shall wee thinke that God hath sent ye as it were great Apostles to conuince and to refor me all You say Christ hath sent ye but in very deede Satan in the likenes of an Angell of light hath most miserably seduced ye Ye say often that many in our Church haue been and are perswaded that there be many faults and â—or not these then sinne agaynst their conscience in as much as they ioyne still with it Master Barrow it is a foule hereticall opinion to hold that a man may not ioyne with that Church which holdeth and maintaineth some faults and errors Did the holy Apostles refuse to ioyne with the multitude in Ierusalem which held the Ceremonies Doth not S. Paule labour in diuers places to ioyne them together in peace which in some matters held and continued in diuers iudgement Read the Rom. 14. and 15. for this poynt Thus much might suffice to shewe your horrible and inexcusable presumption contrary to the rules of Gods word in condemning as quite separated from Christ the whole Church in the land all particular assemblies and all seuerall persons both yong and old men and women in the same whom yet ye haue neuer seene much lesse admonished and conuinced but that your words which yet remayne vntouched I meane of those which I set downe do drawe me further There be three things yet remayning in your former words in which ye erre foully whereby all men shall see how farre off ye are from making any iust defence of your vngodly presumption And your selues shall knowe if the Lord open your harts that it is but a thicke couering of darknes and ignorance â—nder which ye lye shrouded and as ye imagine shielded from the sinne and from the danger of intrusion into Gods office when ye condemne as heathen and infidels all our assemblies The first of the thrée and the second also are in these words when ye say and heresie in that man or in that congregation thatso holdeth teacheth it doth separate from the faith c. Thus ye reason If a man be in an error and be duely conuinced and found obstinate so that he obstinately persist in and teach his error euen agaynst his conscience wee may safely iudge that man to haue no faith nor communion with Christ The same is to be sayd of a congregation and so of the whole Church of England and of all the assemblies therein and of al particular members of the same being all in one estate and condition that is to say duely conuinced and found obstinate How farre wée may proceed in iudgeing a man voyd of faith for obstinacie we shall see in the next placeâ— here I begin with and note how blindly and how absurdly in your consequence of being conuinced ye compare a Church and one man together For a man erring and his error reproued either the whole man is conuinced and is obstinate or els the whole man erreth still in iguorance But it is farre otherwise in a visible Church because in it there bee sundry sorts of members which may not be all foulded vp together 〈◊〉 one sentence For looke vpon the visible Church of Israel at such time as our Sauiour was borne liued vpon the earth and we shall see there were in it excellent godly ones as the blessed Virgin the Father and mother of Iohn the Baptist Anna the Prophetisse olde Symeon and many others There were heapes of ignorant people called the lost sheepe of the house of Israel Math. 10. And there were the Scribes and Pharisies which held and taught obstinately very wicked errors It
vpon ye to abandon and forsake as vtterly separated from the faith and from the Communion of Christ all the assemblies of the Church of England and all the particular members of the same theÌ„ a thicke couering of darkenes which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and scatter Ye lye in prison not as Christs poore afflicted seruants but for this grieuous and outragious sinne which no flesh is able to defend or mitigate and for sundry other abuses as shall appear by your bookes I saide that the fearefull end of one Boltom about twentie yeares past would not be forgotten You haue heard as you say pag. 208 that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church and so fel into that fearefull estate Seeke better information Master Barrow seeing the example may touch ye for the trueth is he did for the same causes that you doo vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England and was with sundry other separated from it And as it is constantly affirmed he was an elder in their secret Church and ofterward falling into deepe dispaire he could not be recouered but did hang himselfe The matâ—er which pressed him so sore was this that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himselfe Looke yee therefore vnto it in time and seeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vpon ye and that it be to late for it is euident vnto all that haue any true light in them that your offence herein can haue no excuse or colour beare not your selues vpon other things in your bookes for it shallâ—ppeare that where yee thinke your selues most deuine there Satan hath most deepely deluded yee glorie not of any sufferings vnles yee will haue those also to glorie which are bound in bedliâ—â— Hauing thus finished about wilfull obstinacie we come now to the fower principall accusations which ye bring against our Church The first is that we worship God after a false manner our worship being made of the inuention of man euen of that man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon vs. And here came the booke of common praier into question I did drawe your accusation into a Sillogisme and you accuse me to be so full of legiet dâ— main that ye had neede to looke to my fingers for ye say I haue left out certaine of your words as namely these wilfully obstinate and imposed Touthing these words wilfully obstinate looke Master Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke and see whether I did not answer them where you haue expressely set them downe looke also vpon your own booke now printed and you shall finde that both in the accusation you haue omitted these words wilfully abstinate and also passed by mine answer vnto them Now when these two that is the omitting the words and passing by the answer vnto them doo concurre here is a great shew of legier du maine on your part and yet you would lay it vpon me that haue not giuen the least suspitioÌ„ therof And for the word imposed you say I leaue it out and put c. in the place thereof I doo indeede setdowne c for these words erronious and imposed vpon them but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter Looke in the tenth page and see whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptisticall freedome which ye are not able to auoyde for this worde imposed Master Barrow looke vppon them learne modestie and blush if not for conscience yet that these things must now lie open to the view of the world And for the booke of common Praier although the question betwéene vs was not whether there bee faultes in it but whether it â—e as you tearme it a great pregnant Idoll full of heresies blasphemies a bominations whether there be any heresies in it And whether the best part of it be none other but a peece of swines flesh an abomination to the Lord Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God when I stand to iustifie by the word of God that in deede there is neither Idolatrie heresie nor blasphemie in it much lesse that it is full of them or the best part an abhomination For in mine answers and defence I doo not vndertake to cleare it of all faults hauing no occasion to meddle in that controuersie but to shew that there are no such faultes but that both the faithfull people of God haue and mayerre in also euen christian gouernours and teachers which are to reforme the church that if any doo see and be perswaded that they be corruptions and faultes yet not of that qualitie or degree as that they may for the same separate themselues from the fellowship of those which art otherwise minded this is the thing which I haue taken vpon mee to defend And if you Master Barrow wil not become a ranke heretick as if it please God you shall not to maintaine this opinion that we may not ioyne in that worship where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden and not reformed why doo you with wonderment crie out that this so large an exception of imperfections is the odde and onely exception that euer you heard of And doo you in very deede Master Barrow thinke that no such exception is to bee made but that where any error doth appeare in the worship a man is to separate himselfe Nay you will say when it is reproued and continued in and not reformed then a man is to forsake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God For they be obstinate and denie reformation Tell me then what if those that be to reforme be perswaded it is no error What if a great part of the multitude be so perswaded that it is no fault and so bee of diuerse mindes Will you deeme that you haue more skill to conuince them then the Apostles had Or will you refuse to ioyne as the Apostles did ioyne with the Church in Ierusalem that held and continued in a grosse error Doo you not see how by this your doctrine you open the doore as wide vnto all Schismaticks as euer did the Donatists or the Annabaptists seeing there will euer be errors and some that cannot be made to see them Will you not see how you contrarie Saint Paule directly who in whole chapters almost as I haue noted before dooth labour nothing else but to perswade the Christians that held diuers opinions touching some things in Gods worship yet to ioyne together Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words with your accustomed reuilings and slanders haue you here heaped vp But I will deale onely with that which is not answered alreadie You charged our Church with Romish fasts I charged you with falâ—e accusing because the Church of Rome most wickedly against the Crosse of Christ placeth the worship of God and the merite of eternall life in fasting which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth You labour to shew faultes in
our fasts what is that now to the purpose And so in diuers other things is this the question betweene vs You charge vs with idoll feastes as if wee worshipped Saints and Angels I told you it is a starke lie and so I must affirme our Church vtterly condemning all that most blasphemous doctrine of popery touching the meditation of Saints or Angels here againe you deale but euen as in the former you must not still so boldly slander but proue that the dayes are kept in honour of the Saints and Angels And so for the naming of the Churches I knowe Saint Luke did not in any respect honour Mars and so did not contrarie to that which Dauid professeth saying he would not take the names in his mouth you may see by his example how Dauid is to be vnderstoode not of the very naming but of the naming with some honor for a man may name them either in detestation or as Saint Luke dooth onely to make destinction Then come tithes and oblations here in deede Master Barrow you bid me looke whether this error be not fundamentall being obstinately held and bring for your reason that they which reuiue any part of the ceremoniall lawe are bound to the whole lawe and so are as Paule saith to the Galathians abolished from Christ Truely Master Barrow the more I reade of your writings the more I pittie your blindnes I could not haue beene perswaded that you were so exceeding ignorant taking vpon you to controule all Churches and farre to excell all the most learned deuines neither could it enter into my thought that any would so boldly abuse the holy Scriptures to seduce and subuert the mindes of simple men I doo here also intreate the reader to be atteâ—tiue a little and to see vpon what foundation you doo builde a great part of your dooings For here to proue the paying of tithes an error fundamentall and vtterly to separate from Christ being obstinately held you alleage the words of Saint Paule Galath 5. I testifie againe vnto euery man which is circuÌ„cised that he is deptor to keepe the whole lawe yee are abolished from Christ c. Let me first aske ye then were the fathers which were circumcised in the time of yâ— law abolished from Christ and faâ—â—en from grace You will say no for circumcision was a seale of the righteousnes of faith Rom. 4. Then it must needes be graunted that Saint Paule doth not speak here of circumcisioÌ„ in the right vse for which God did ordeine it for so it was not coÌ„trary vnto Christ albeit the retaining of it after Christ come was an error Also let me aske ye further doo you thinke that Saint Paule was contrarie to himselfe when he circumcised Timothie Acts 16. ver 3. Or after that when he would with those which had a vow be purified and offer an oblation according to the lawe Act. 21. 26. will you say that Saint Paule and Timothie became deptors to keepe the whole lawe Or that they were abolished from Christ It is horror to admit any thought that way or once to make doubt of such a matter Neither would Iames and the other Apostles haue suffered or tolerated the Church in Ierusalem in that which dooth abolish from Christ Whereupon it followeth of necessity that Saint Paule here to the Galathians dooth not speake simply of the ceremonie of circumcision but as it was vrged with the doctrine of the false Apostles which was this that circumcision was a necessary part of Gods worship and that men could not bee saued vnles they were circumcised for so did the false Apostles vrge it as ye may see Act. 15. 1. placing righteousnes and the merite of eternalllife in it for against that Saint Paule speaketh here to the Galathians saying as many as are iustified by the lawe are abolished from Christ fallenfrom grace Here is the thing then that the false Apostles did ioyne the law and Christ together for iustification and Saint Paule testifieth and denounceth that he which is circumcised with such a minde as to be iustified in part thereby hée is debtor to kéepe the whole law which is not possible for any flesh and therefore he shall stand vnder the curse Moreouer he is abolished from Christ and fallen from grace because the iustification by grace and the iustification by the law are so contrarie that they cannot be ioyned together he that will holde any thing of the one must forgoe the other This being the thing which Saint Paule speaketh of the Galathians and not the very ceremonies which both he and Timothie did sometime obserue nor yet the error of the Church of Ierusalem which was not to place the worship of God and righteousnesse in them which the holy Apostles would neuer haue borne withall seeing it ouerthroweth the faith of Christ marke well Master Barrowe or if you will be wilfull let others marke how foolishly and yet with what furious terror ye thunder out the abolishing from Chrst for paying tithes and for the obseruation of some ceremonies in which if there be a fault it is so farre from that which the falfe Apostles went about to seduce the Galathians in that it commeth short of the error of the Church of Ierusalem For the Church of England as all men may sée dooth condemne fully and absolutely not onely that doctrine of the false Apostles and of the Church of Rome touching iustification or merite of words but also teacheth the whole law of ceremonies was to cease now Christ being come Cease therefore Master Barrow this foolish rage and labour not to seduce the people deceiuing and being deceiued as the blessed Apostle speaketh Ye obserue dayes and times months and yeares saith Saint Paule to the Galathians I am afraide of ye least I haue laboured among ye in vaine If ye be circumcised Christ shall profit ye nothing The Church of England say you obserueth dayes and times as Easter Whitsonday c. and payethtithes and obserueth other ceremonies therefore Christ can profit yee nothing ye are abolished from Christ ye are fallen from the couenant of grace in as much as ye obstinately holde and continue in them Is it not much to bee lamented that after so many yeares preaching of the Gospell much people should lie open to bee fpoyled by such poore seely stuffe as this and bee led away by such more then sottish ignorance Cannot men sée that the whoâ—e matter lieth in the diuers endes of obseruation The false Apostls the Church in Ierusalem Paul and Timothy doo obserue the selfe same things that is Circumcision and other ceremonies of the lawe The false Apostles are abolished from Christ as they vrge and obserue them The Church of Ierusalem is not abolished from Christ but yet erreth grosely Saint Paul and Timothie sinne not at all thereby What is the reason of this difference but that as ye may see the false Apostles obserued and vrged the ceremonies as meritorious for iustification and
imbrace the Gospell when you giue them the names of those vile beasts and birds and especially when as this your most vile reproach reacheth not alone vnto all the assemblies in England but also vnto all the holy Churches which haue imbraced professe the glorious Gospell For all the Churches haue the Psalmes in meeter which they sing in their publick assemblies and their prescribed leiturgies which ye make so horrible Moreouer yâ— people in other Churches you make to be but prophane multitudes as in the assemblies of England as we shall afterward see where you charge master Caluine at Geneua that with ignorance and rashnes and disorderly procéedings hée at the first â—ash made no scruple to receaue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the church which you terme a confuse route c. A pernicious example vnto all Europe whome then haue you called Wolues Foxes Dogs Owles c Your tongs are your own who is Lord ouer yee Psalm 12. Your sufferings are for Christ so are theirs which lye bound in bedlem I doo not doubt but that in sundry places the Psalmes in Mâ—tremisse of the strict sence so no doubt do their Psalmes in any Church but yet there is nothing in them vnholy or disagréeing from the truth All the knowledge which you haue is wholly from the writings expositions and translations of those whom you cerine Owles Vultures Dogs Foxes c. For take away the translations of the Bible and what could you hauesâ—n And where had you the direction vnto the sight of those things which you hold in truth but from the writings of others Would you make vs beléeue that you had found them out of your selues In déede your vnsound and crased principles vpon which you ground are your own and nothing else And yet as if you had all knowledge in the fountaines of the holy Scriptures and knew a right sense and scope in them which none besides your selues haue attained vnto you reprehend the Psalmes as well concinnate to the eare but nothing to the sense and also the preachers as not rightly deuâ—â—ing the word If you had shewed some one Psalme for in example first in laying open the natiue sense wherein yet for all your great brags you must trust Tremellius because some one word wrong translated may carry the sense another way and then how the méeter hath wholly swarued from the same it had béen somewhat If you haue any true grammer sense of the Psalmes for that is it which we estéeme as the ground of truth or of the rest of the Scriptures which you haue not from such Owles and Foxes as Master Tremellious Beza and other translators we would be glad to know it But remember what is said of some that they are swelling waues of the sea foming out their owne shame what greater shame and discredit can there be then for men to fall into such insolency and swelling that being grosly ignorant hauing no knowledge but through the helpes ministred by others yet take vpon them as if they weresent from heauen as the onely men that haue séeâ—e the true light This is no excessiue spéech séeing yâ—â—â—â—erâ—â— in many things condemne all Churches and their learnedst reachers â—eâ— the reader considet of the prophanenes and falsehoode of your other spéeches of the preacher going to his géere and not offending any and such like I doo not know Master Barrow what your former conuersation hath béeâ— but by your spéeches â— man would iudge that you had spent your time rather in the societies of â—arding and dicing then in the â—câ—â—â—lâ— of Christ here therefore I conclude that with ignorance falsehood and prophane impiety ye accuse our worship to be blasphemous and Idolatrous Thus much for the first transgression now to the second The second is that the prophane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with vs receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of our Church In your preamble Master Barrow you doo but babble and that vpon your owne surmises contrarie to my plaine words and whether against your conscience looke you for I doo not allow euill ministers nor their admitting of open notorious sinners vnto the table of the Lord. And when I said the Church of Englang dooth not allow the same I speake of the established publick order by the consent of the whole land which is both for the godlines of the ministers repelling the notorious offendors from the Sacrament Moreouer we doo not at any hand allow your arguments which are drawne from the principles of Donatisine as namely that wée must separate our selues where wée sée any swarue from their duety and offend The reason which you brought to prooue this second transgression as you sayd at once I reduced into forme of Sylogisme thus where all are receiued in by baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication there all the prophane multitudes are without exception of any one person receiued into retayned in the bosome and bodie of the Church But in the Church of England all are receiued in by Baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication Therefore in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes without the exception of any one person are receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of the Church Here you complayne and that grieuonsly that I did frame this argument after mine owne conceipt as I might best deale withall and then did proceede to confute you The falsification which you charge me so sore withall is that I haue put in a newe minor proposition as namely the whole bodie of the Church of England for the particular asseblies It is a straÌ„ge case to see the witte of some man what great 〈…〉 â—hee can contriue if men will giue credit He that is 〈◊〉 whether it be bysome one assemblie which 〈◊〉 â—ower or by the whole bodie of a Church in a kingdom is â—â—e not cast forth Did not Esra with the Princes and Elders of Israel publish a Proclamation that hee that should not come vp to Ierusalem within three dayes should bee separated from the congregation of the multitude that came out of captiuitie Esra 10. ver 8. this was excommunication Moreouer where you sayd that the Parson and his parish hath not the power to cast forth any by excommunication I did not let this passe but tolde you that it is not meete that the Parson and his parish should haue this power to excommunicate vnlesse it be such a parish as hath the consistory of Pastors and Elders I gaue you the example of the Church of Geneua where euery seuerall flock hath a Pastor but yet these Pastors and their flocks haue not the power to excommunicate Why doo not you then if you will answere prooue by the worde of God that euery particular flock in a kingdome or region is of necessitie for the being of a Church to
haue this power whole and seuerall by it selfe I take it you shall neuer be able to prooue that it ought to be much lesse shall you be able to prooue them to bee no true Churches which haue not in euery seuerall congregation established the power of excommunication For touching excommunication there be Churches which are true Churches of Christ which haue it not nor iudge it needefull Master Beza in his booke against Erastus pag. 2. sayth that he was charged by some to esteeme them to be no Churches which wanted excommunication or such a Presbyterie which was vniustly layd to his charge as he sayth the perpetuall conuiction of him and those Churches did sufficiently witnes You haue more worke in hand here Master Barrow then you bee wate of For if you had proued that the Church of England hath no power to excommunicate yet there remayneth a further thing which is not so easie as you take it to bee conuinced namely that it is no true Church of Christ which hath no excommunication All Churches are against you in this poynt and the light of the truth will be as strong agaynst you as it hath beene agaynst the Annabaptists Here you make the chalenge anewe and say If I would vouchsafe to take mine aduersaries with me into the field and giue them leaue to bring and to vse their owne weapons I answere that for all your outcries yet there hath been no one weapon taken from ye nor yet cut shorter That speciall weapon which you now haue drawen and burnished wherein you repose your trust is this Where all the prophane and vngodly are receiued into and retayned in the Church as members thereof there cannot bee sayd the true established Church of Christ But in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes vngodly of the land were receiued into are retayned in their Church as members thereof Therefore the Church of England in this estate cannot be sayd the true established Church of Christ You doo here conclude a new question for there may bee a true Church of Christ and yet not in all things rightly or truly established Agayne there be foure terminie in this your Sylogisme because this clause all the prophane vngodly is taken more largely in the maior then it is in the minor or else your maior is false also the scriptures which you quote falsely applied It is certain that God did separate his Church from the Heathen Nations that did not call vpon his name Such were not compelled to enter But if you looke vpon the Church of Israel the Nation of the Iewes which had the couenant when they fell into Idolatry and horrible impietyes you shall see that all the godly Kings of Iuda that reformed and restored the true worship of God compelled all to the same Doo you reade that the Idolaters or their seede which still after a sorte professed the God of Abraham and had the seale of the couenant vpon them were cast foorth You may sée in the Prophet Sophonie that in the dayes of the godly King Iosias many of those Idolaters did turne but feynedly for feare of punishment and secretly worshipped Idoles The nation of England did professe Iesus Christ and were all sealed with the seale of the couenant but yet ouerwhelmed generally in Idolatry and many horrible sinnes Our Noble Quéene Elizabeth placed by God vpon the Regall throne compelleth them all being her subiects according to their vow in Baptisme to renounce Idolatry and to imbrace the holy fayth and Religion of Christ appoynting sharpe penaltyes for such as shall obstinately persist either in Idolatrie or other horrible sinnes Now tell me Master Barrow what doth she herein other then the godly kings of Iuda did She receiueth not in nor compelleth Turkes Iewes or heathen but onely such as are Christians by profession And therefore you may see that if you will haue your maior proposition agree with the Scriptures it must needes be taken more largely than your minor And thus you are come forth into the field with your choyce weapon which deceiuethye vtterly But yet here to make some face of true zeale you reckon vp a number of horrible sinnes Indeede God requireth that al his seruants should vtterly abhorre and condemne such vices and speak against them but he alloweth not any to take occasion thereby to condemne his Church Such vices abound but yet there are many thousands which cannot â—e charged with any one foule vice whose conuersation in the profession of the true fayth is hath been with much more sobrietie and modesty then yours Master Barrow vnlesse your time past haue beene better spent then the present And when God shall open your eyes his terror shall be vponye ye shall know that I haue not by the deuill blasphemed yee but shewed by Gods worde that you haue with horrible presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate and with most sauage crueltie sought to rend vp and to teare the Lordes tender plants In the next place commeth the Baptizing the Children of prophane men which professe Christ and remaine in the Church Here Master Barrow you are in a wonderfull displeasure and can not satisfie your selfe with all the varietie of odious tearmes which you doe euen fome out The heresie which I haue vttered about this matter is so foule as you take it that after many extreame wordes you say you may by the direct warrant of Gods word hold me and mine ordinary most heynous falsefiers and corrupters of the whole law and worde of God most blasphemous and peruitions false Prophets A man would thinke at the reading of these words that the whole Church were on fire especially if I should repeate but the one halfe of your speeches but that we know Master Barrow it is but your fashion If it please God he may giue you some spark of modestie But touching the matter it selfe I did affirme that the children of prophane men which remayn in the Church professing Christ whether they bee close hypoerites or openly wicked in conuersation do belong to the couenannt are to be baptized so that the Church take care for their instruction and education in the true fayth Your cauills here about verball confession which God alone can iudge about parish assemblies which are members of a Church though euery one by it selfe seuerally hath not the full power and so to becalled a Church about expresse contrariety error and sacriledge in my proposition as you say are not worth the mention Touching the Scriptures which I alleage to prooue that the interest in the couenant doth not depend vpon the syncere fayth or godlines of the next parents youcrie out of so many errors mischines and blasphemies that you doubt not as you say to pronounce and reiect these doctrines of this false Prophet most blasphemous and deuilish But now if it be true which I say and proue agaynst whom haue you powred foorth your poyson And what bring
when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
shall exercise any part of it in the Church The Bishops of the church of England and they that maintaine the government by presbyteries doo both alike condemne that challenge of the Pope as an vsurpation Both parts affirming that although our Sauiour doo speake onely to Peter saying to thee I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen yet he giueth him nothing but that which he gaue vnto the other Apostles This they prooue by Ioh. 20. where he breathed vpon them and sayd ioyntly to them all As the father sent me so I send you and whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen c. With what face can you say then Master Barrow that the Bishops and the Pope depend vpon one line and build their preheminence vpon that promise made vnto Peter You might truelier haue sayd that the Bishops and presbyteries depend vppon one line for their preheminence not only for that they expound those places Math. 16. and Ioh. 20. alike but also that the Bishops challenge none other power then the presbyteries do For the controuersie betweene the Bishops and the presbyteries is whether of them by Gods word for the benefit of the Church are to exercise that power which Christ hath left vnto her The one side doth affirme that by Gods word the execution of this her power doth belong to the Bishops as being most properly the Apostles successors and therefore do hold that the Church of England hath done right in reseruing this power vnto them The Churches which hold the other gouernment do affirme that when our Sauiour saith tell the Church it is not meant tell the Bishop or those which are ioyned with them but tell the Church is tell the Consistorie which consisteth of Pastors Teachers and Elders chosen from among the people This Consistorie say they is to haue and to exercise that power and iurisdiction which the Bishops do hold Now Master Barrow as you say the gouernment thus by the Bishops is popish so you grieuously condemne the Consistorie affirming that it is irregular that it hath no ground or warrant in Gods word but vtterly subuerteth all order and openeth a wide gap vnto all licentiousnes c. Then come the fourth sort which expound these words tell the church wrong And those are they which say tel the church is tell the congregation of people without the Elders Here you shew some skill also to confute which is but to fight with your owne shadow for this fourth sort I thinke haue neuer been heard of but among your selues And in déede your heauenly patterne whatsoeuer ye speake of pastors teachers and Elders is nothing else but an heape of people without any of these officers For was it euer heard of among men that there bee offices in which there is no power or authority at all annexed vnto the officers which execute them not euen in the things wherein their offices consist aboue those which haue not the same offices For if it be true which you say that the greatest minister hath no more power to bind or loose the sinnes of the least member then the said member hath to bind or loose his Or if Christ speake to all euen to the wemen Iohn 20. whose sinnes ye forgiue they are forgiuen c. If the word haue no more efficacie to worke faith deliuered by the ministrie or the Sacrament to seale the promises haue no more power deliuered by a minister then when the same word is vttered and those Sacraments deliuered by any man or by any woman or if euery young man yea euery maide which is of the assembly haue equall power with any to excommunicate we would see wherein the power of any of your officers consisteth where all or euery one haue equall power there all are officers where all are officers we may say that in déed none are publick officers This is Master Barrowes heauenly patterne by which he hath conuinced all our Churches and found them so obstinate for reiecting it that they be quite separate from Christ Master Barrow will say he spake not of the Sacraments for he faith a minister onely is to deliuer them And I say one part of the power of loosing is by the Sacraments in as much as they seale our faith The power of discipline exercised by the presbytory as it is in the Churches of France Scotland Geneua the Low Countries c. you most grieuously condemne the reader shall see your own words in your other booke page 189. and 190. thus you speake These men in stead of this grosse Antichristian gouernement c. would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despite of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and ensualitie of their fleshly hearts most miserably iunouate corrupt and peruert c. Also page 166. you tearme Classical and Prouinciall synods and counsels a diuelish forgery Here you say the fault and pride of the Elders is intollerable Also you say that many were the reasons and more the inconueniences that might bee alleaged against this presumptuous irregular consistorie which hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth destroyeth and corrupteth the whole order and Communion of the Churches openeth a wide gap vnto all licenciousnes and prophannes of manners c. Thus the Church of England is no Church of Christ because of their gouernement by Bishops In other places where the gouernement is by presbytreies not onely the people by your sentence are prophane multitudes but their ministers proud rash ignorant and in the sensuality of their fleshly hearts haue corrupted Christes gouernement in despite thereof haue set vp a diuelish forgery and open the gap vnto all prophanenesse c. O Master Barrow what reproaches are these against all churches and their ministers I must néeds tell you againe that there is not any which hath any sparke of Christian modesty but will say God hath not sent ye your sufferings are not to be gloried in you are but Rabasaka that thus reproach the church of Christ What Schismaticks haue gone beyond ye Now followeth the suspension from the Sacraments You must vnderstand that al your friuolous cauils about this and all your reproaches reach not alone vnto the Church of England but vnto all the reâ—ormed Churches which practise a suspention Master Beza in his booke against Erastus page 10. sheweth the vse and practise of it not onely in their Church but in the auncient Churches Also page 124. he proueth it by the example of Moses sister and of those which were restrained a whole month from eating the passeouer these ceased not in the meane time to be accounted members of the congregation When the repentance is not throughly testified or the rest stand in néed of some terror as wel as the party that hath offended then is there vse of suspention To proue that neither the worship of God nor yet the godly are polluted by the
open wicked that communicate with them in the same and that the couenant of God is in no wise thereby disanulled I alleaged first the auncient Church for example vnder the conduct of Moses in the wildernes in which there were heapes of wicked rebels and so in the time of Iesay Ieremie and other of the Prophets whose complaints are grieuous for it is manifest that few godly ones among swarmes of wicked did worship together in the Temple Here Master Barrow your cauiles are more then slender first that our Churches were neuer true Churches and therefore no comparison betwéene ours and them Touching this I haue spoken before Then next you say that in y◠times of wicked Kings when Idolatry was set vp in Iuda the godly did not communicate with the wicked which is most true but the wicked did Communicate with the godly in Gods true worship in the dayes of godly Kings And for the time of Moses you say those wicked rebels were of the common wealth but not of the Church and would haue me proue that they were admitted to the Tabernacle or publick worship If they were not of the Church still in outward account how were their children all receiued Or where reade you of any family among them which was of the common wealth and not of the Church There is no shew of such a matter Againe Saint Paule 1. Cor. 10. sheweth that they did all communicate in the Sacraments They did all eate the same spirituall meate and drunke◠the same spirituall drunke What can be more clere then this If men would not wickedly cauile against the holy Ghost Then next for the time that our Sauiour liued vpon the earth in what miserable estate was the Church The most of the teachers very corrupt both in doctrine and maners Very few of the people did in déed feare God and yet came all on heapes to the Temple together with the godly Vnto this you answer that at the byrth of our Sauiour and vnto such time as they opposed themselues against him things were in meetly good case Would any man that were not past all care what he saith make such an answer Did those grieuous sects of the Scribes and Pharisies rise of a suddaine Or did the high Priest by due course come to the office Or were the open wicked separated where such wicked men bare sway And if they had not of some long time before brought in their owne traditions how could they haue called thē the traditions of their Fathers Math. 15 Mark 7. And when the Pharisies and Saduces the Priests Elders reiected and withstood our Sauiour they you say then ceased to be the visible Church and that our Sauiour did separate himselfe and his Disciples from them What should one say vnto you Master Barrow are you euen bent to gainsay the manifest word of Christ The Scribes and Pharisies did sit in Moses chaire Matth. 23. Was Moses Chaire out of the visible Church And what can be more plaine then that our Sauiour willeth the people to heare them For otherwise how should he commaunde them to obserue and doo all things which they should say but after their workes hée would not haue them doo At this you set vp your throate and crie out What execrable blasphemie and horrible heresies doth this wretched man runne into c. Doth he not hereby make our Sauiour Christ guiltie of the open breach of Gods lawes and the destruction of all the people Indeed that were most horrible and damnable blasphemie and he should be a most vile and wretched man that should make our Sauiour guiltie of the breach of any lawe of God And if you had but the true knowledge of some godly childe of foureteene yeres of age you should plainly see that our Sauiour did command them indeed to heare the Scribes and Pharisies expounding the lawe and the Prophets and that therein he is not guilty at all of the open breach of Gods lawes but indeed if he therein committed any offence it was but agaynst the principles of Donatisme and Annabaptisme which Satan vnder the shewe of an Angell of light hath bewitched men withall and which you haue setled in your minde in stead of Gods lawes For would you make vs beléeue that the Pharisies and Doctors of the lawe were euen of a suddaine become naught Christ himselfe when he was twelue yeares old sate among them in the Temple did heare them and propound questions vnto them Luk. 2. And when hee preached his custome was to goe into the Synagog vppon the Sabboth and to reade and expound the Scriptures Luk. 4 But let vs see what you alleage to prooue that he did not meane that men should heare them You demaunde if God doo not in all places where he commandeth to heare true Prophets forbid to heare false Prophets What then Master Barrow how blinde are you Do you not know that our Sauiour by mentioning their sitting in Moses Chayre doth bind the auditors to receiue their doctrine so farre as it was the true doctrine of Moses and the Prophets Hee doth heare the false Prophet which heareth and receiueth false doctrine So farre as the Pharisies set foorth the truth so farre they were to bee heard and their Doctrine as our Sauiour willeth was to bee followed But men were to take heede of their Leuine that is of their false doctrine and humane traditions Our Sauiour doth not at all approoue their open wickednes when hee willeth them to follow that true Doctrine which they should deliuer out of Moses and not to follow their workes The Priests and teachers ought indeede to be holy but it hath fallen out farre otherwise and that many times in Gods Church And now if it were an abuse that some of these Scribes and Pharisies which did teach were not Leuites but of some other Tribe as Paul was of Beniamin yet there were greater abuses about the high Priest the rest and begun long before that time yet the whole Church and our sauiour himself so long as he did liue as a priuate man frequented the Temple and publike worship and heard them expound the Scriptures Therefore Master Barrow albeit you exclaime in this sorte these blasphemies doth this wicked man publish his ordinarie and all the Cleargie in England suffer them to passe in print yet neither you nor all the Donatists and Annabaptists vnder heauen shall euer be able with all your shifts to wring this place from vs which indeede ouerturneth all the chiefe grounds and principles of your sect Be ashamed therefore to oppose your selues so wickedly against the cleare doctrine of Christ and cease to imagine absurdities which are but from your blind mistaking Agayne we see that our Sauiour healing a man that had the Leprosie commaunded him saying goe shew thy selfe vnto the Priest and offer that gift which Moses hath commaunded for a testimony vnto them Math. 8. 4. Also he sendeth ten Leapers at once to shew
is that princes lawes are to be obeyed for conscience out of which a man may reason thus seeing none can make lawes to binde the conscience but God and no lawe but in things good or euill can binde the conscience and not in things indifferent for that were to binde where God hath left free therefore Princes haue no power to make lawes in things indifferent To answer this in such sort as a simple man may see the falsehood of it is somewhat hard but I will doo the best I can I say therefore I am bound for conscience to obey the Princes lawes and yet the Princes lawes of themselues doo not binde my conscience It is an honest a good and profitable thing when the Prince maketh a lawe and restrayneth the vse of some things outwardly which the conscience hath freedome in inwardly before God when it is for a publike good Now I am bound to further a publike good it is a great sinne to shewe contempt agaynst the Prince whom God commandeth me to obey in these respects then I am boūd euen for couscience to keep the lawes The nature of the things indifferent is not altered before God vnto my conscience by that restraint of lawe neither yet the vse is taken from me when and where it may bee without contempt of my Prince without offence to men and without hindring a publike good or commoditie They that speake in words of Arte doo say that Princes lawes doo not binde the conscience haplôs but cata ti not simply by themselues but for some respect or by somewhat which commeth as a medium which is as I haue before shewed Take an example put case some dying of clothes should be harmefull to the Common wealth as to dye in blewe I am a Dyer this restraynt doth not make the very dying in blew it selfe vncleane to my conscience before God and so binde my conscience but if I dye in blew contemning the power so giue a publike offence and hinder a common profite I doo sinne God doth forbid these things and they doo binde the conscience Now to come to the lawes Ecclesiasticall which M. Greenwood sayth is to goe a note further The Church as in our Countrey the Prince the Nobilitie and Commons assembled in Parliament doo agree vpon some lawes in things indifferent for comelines and order and edification in Gods worship as in some other places the Presbyteries with the consent of the christian Magistrates This say you is to binde the conscience Well let vs see your reasons If say you they binde not the conscience why should men be excommunicate and deliuered vp to Satan for violating such ceremonies and orders as bind not the conscience This seemeth vnto you a thing most absurd but marke a little The Princes lawes as I haue shewed doo not bind the conscience but yet he that with contempt of the Prince to a publike euill example and harme of the Common wealth doth breake the lawes is guiltie of great sinne and if he stand in it worthie to be excommunicate Euen so hee that violateth a lawfull rule or ceremonie of the Church in matters indifferent which are not layd vpon him to bind his conscience before God but for order and comelines before men though his conscience touching the things themselues is not bound before God yet in shewing any contempt agaynst the publike authoritie of the church in giuing an offence by bringing in vncomelines or disorder he sinneth if he persist obstinatly is to be excommunicate Tel me M. Greenwood is it not a thing betweene God and a mans conscience free to weare a gowne of greene cloath were it not in regard of comelines among men The Church then taketh order that no Minister shall come into the publike assemblie to preach in a green gown he doth it is he not to be reproued as for a great sinne if he stand obstinatly in it to be cast forth But you say all these things must be left to the discretion of the Minister So ye may also take away the power of making lawes in matters simply euil for euery man hath not loue or care And now whereas I haue shewed by y◠example of the holy Apostles Act. 15. who decreed that the Gentiles should abstaine from bloud and from strangled that the Church hath power to decrée in things indifferent orders for edification let vs see what a learned answer you M. Greenwood haue found out First you say I haue ouerthrowne my selfe by setting downe that the holy Ghost and the Apostles did this because these were the master builders and were to make lawes c. Alas poore man doth the holy Ghost euer make law or the Apostles in things indifferent as eating blood or strangled to change the nature of the things or to binde a mans conscience before God so that he might not secretly where it might neuer be knowne to the weake Iewes Then ye see there may bee lawes made the holy Ghost by the rules of the Scriptures guiding the Pastors in things indifferent which binde not the conscience But say you they doo not inioyne it as a lawe but tell them they shall do well if they obserue these things by no necessitie inforced pag. 251. Then it seemeth they might haue eate bloud and strangled and giuen offence to the weake Iewes and not haue done euill That which seemeth good to the holy Ghost for them to obserue they may if it seeme not good to them not obserue How absurd is this And if ye mark well what S. Iames sayth Act. 21. vers 25. you shall see it was not left arbytrarie so long as there might offence growe thereby Well if the Church then haue power to make such decrees to auoyd publike offence and disorder what if the Church erre and appoynt some orders and Ceremonies which are hurtfull This error and fault of the Church is not in that high offence of binding the conscience which indeede is Antichristian but in missing what is most comely most without offence and fittest for edification The Church of Christ is so precious a thing and the soules of men to bee regarded with such sender compassion that all Christian gouernours and guides ought to be carefull not onely not to lay any yoke vppon the conscience but euen to redresse the least error that may breede or worke any harme touching comelines and order To ende this poynt Master Barrow vntill you can shewe wherein any power is vsurped and exercised ouer the faith and conscience wee must needes take all that ye haue here set downe to be but your lauish speech Now touching those reasons which I brought to proue the ministry of our Churches to be the ministry of Christ The first is this they haue the calling of the Church What sound stuffe ye haue brought to warrant your most vngodly presumption in condemning the Church of England as also al Churches in Europe let the reader iudge Also that
hereticks shall not be able to finde the like for the slanderous presumption prowd contempt The preaching of the Gospel it selle in our church ye do most prophanely blaspheme in saying that ther with as with a goodly embrodered couerlet and fine shéets of Egipt we couer Iesabels bed hide al our fornicatioÌ„s When ye say it as a sweet whistle as a charme yea when ye tearme it the whores scarfes to couer her shame pag. 141 Also wher as in many places of this land but chiefly when the Spaniards came to inuade there were fasts the word of God preached in some places by two in some by 3. ministers this ye call a stage play pag. 97. Ye say ye are no Donatists nor Schismaticks out of that which I haue written to shewe that ye are full Donatists ye gather sundry dissimilitudes betwixt your selues and them Ye might perhaps by diligence finde out some other things in which ye are not like them as it may be they did weare blew caps or gréene cloaks which ye doe not The truth is you do agrée with theÌ„ in the sum substance of all that fowlest things which ye cannot denie at least if ye come behinde them in any one poynt ye are before them in two other for it To follow ye in all points wher in ye erre tither with theÌ„ or with some other as wicked would be ouer tedious onely I note these and set them downe together 1 First that ye do most presumptuously against the expresse rules of Gods word intrude your selues into the Lords office in taking vpon ye to condemne the whole Church of England as separated from Christ refut page 23. 2 That ye condemne al the Churches in Europe which professe the Gospell that their people are but heapes of prophane men dise page 33. That their worship is blasphemous Idolatrie in as much as they haue leiturgies which is as ye say to haue another Gospell another Testament Refut page 244. That there is no ministry of the Gospel in al Europ Disc page 104. that the gouernement of al Churches is false and wicked Refut page 74. 75. Discou page 189. 190. 3 That ye confound errors and heresies as to make all errors heresies being conuinced to his conscience that erreth held and to make none to be heresies vnles he be conuinced that erreth Refu page 24. 4 That with Nouatus the wicked heretick ye take away all hope of saluatioÌ„ froÌ„ those which offend of knowledge willingly in as much as ye make euery obstinate persisting in the least error to separate froÌ„ the faith Communion of Christ pa. 24. 5 That ye deny the distinction of errors fundamentall and not fund amentall calling it popish Refut page 26. 6 That yee iudge of the whole Church to bee conuinced in conscience as of one man page 24. 7 That ye hold it a due conuincing not onely of particular persons but also of whole Churches and such as doth cast them forth as heathen so soone as any priuat man dooth reproue the least error they forthwith do not reforme the same page 24. 8 That ye condemne al without exception both learned and vnlearned men and wemen young and old which professe the Gospell in publick assemblies vpon false accusations without admonition in matters wherein if there be errors yet excellent godly men haue erred in them finally euen by your â—wne confession Refut page 180. 9 That ye say the best part of the booke of common praier is no better then a peece of swines flesh and abomination to the Lord. Refut page 48. 10 That ye say the greatest minister hath no more power to binde or loose the least member then the said member hath to binde or loose him and so with the Swinckfeldians destroy the whole power of the ministry page 37. 11 That ye speake so prophanely of singing of Psalmes and so dishonorably of Christian people Discou page 180. 12 That most offensiuely and prophanely ye tearme the articles of our faith our forged patcherie Discou page 76. 13 That ye deny men are to ioyne in that worship where any errors whatsoeuer doo appeare and are not reformed and so open a most wide gap vnto all Schismes Refut page 27. 14 That you are so grosly ignorant how the false Apostles vrged circumcision and so from the words of S. Paule to the Galathians affirme that paying tithes or the obseruing any times as it is in our church is an error fundameÌ„tal Refut pa. 36 15. That ye iudge them to be no true Churches which haue not excommunication pag. 54. 73. 16 That ye denie baptisme to the children of open sinners which yet remayne in the Church Refut pag. 58. 59. 17 That ye make the stablenes of Gods couenant towards his Church to depend vpon the works of men Refut pag. 60. 18 That ye hold circuÌ„cision amoÌ„g the ten tribes or in Iuda in time of Idolatrie was no true seale of the couenant yet ye say that coÌ„cerning the outward cutting it was true circuÌ„cision the like ye say of baptisme administred in popery Ref. pag. 64. 19 That in your Disc from pag. 16. to pag. 45. and Refut pag. 97. ye take vpon ye to confute almost all which M Caluiue hath written against the Donatists Annabaptists holding that the prayers and Sacraments the consciences of all that communicate together are defiled where any open sinners are admitted 20 That ye deny the distinction of the external court the court of conscience so take away the power of the ciuil magistrate the power of the Church in making lawes in things indifferent taking vpon ye to confute M. Cal. Disc pa 94. 95. 21 That ye condemne Logick Rethorike and other liberal Artes. Refut pag 117. 22 That ye would haue al authors the bible only excepted cast aside in the study of diuinitie Disc pag. 146. 23 That ye wickedly blaspheme the operatioÌ„ motions of Gods spirit in the harts of men at the preaching of the gospel as if they were but the illusions of the diuel Disco pa. 141. 156 24 That ye speake so reprochfully of all the most excellent learned diuines which God hath raysed vp in al Churches coÌ„demning them of pride ignorance rashnes sensualitie c. Disco from pag. 140. vnto pag. 191. 25 That ye still stand to maintaine that priuate men may assemble and erect a Church with all the offices officers Refut pag. 191. 26 That ye affirme there bee no true ministers any where to be found vpoÌ„ earth nor yet any extraordinary ministers to be looked for therfore meere priuate men are as ye say to erect and establish the Church Refut pag. 196. 27 That ye affirme these priuate men are not to stay for the Prince Refut pag. 196. 28 That ye maintaine that no fault is to be tolerated in the church but if any priuate man do espie a fault and reproue it if they will not amend it he is to forsake that church This is your whole practise I will not stand to lay open euery particular but vpon these conclude that seeing ye hold so many foule errors and with such outrage in your dealing God hath not sent ye nor set ye a work more then he sent the Donatists and Annabaptists but Satan hath seduced ye ye labor to seduce others And if it please God I beseech him for his sonns sake to open your eyes and to giue ye some spark of waâ—â—â—orepent Amen FINIS