those that hold this doctrine 2. In what sense we deny the Real presence and the other particulars here mentined I have shewed before as also what little cause they have to boast that either Scripture or Fathers do make for those assertions of theirs wherein we dissent from them That which the Marquesse after addeth of a Womans being head supreme or moderatrix in the Church I have likewise spoken to sufficiently before That a Lay-man should excommunicate and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of Fees and the like for which the Marquesse taxeth this Church I am content that it passe among the Errata's of our Church as he was pleased to speak though without cause concerning some passages in the Fathers as I have noted before It is our Doctrine and not our Discipline that I endeavour to defend After the Church of England the Marquesse commeth to the Church of Saxony and so passeth to the Church of Geneva as he pretendeth but yet indeed he speaketh only of two particular persons relating to those Churches viz. Luther and Calvin as if whatsoever were held by them were to be imputed to those Churches to which they did relate which surely is not fair dealing much lesse that all Protestants should stand charged with all their sayings were they indeed such as the misconstruction of adversaries would make them We honour these and many more as men eminently active in that great work of reforming the Church yet do we not ascribe an infallibility unto them as the Romanists do unto their Popes We do not say of them as Bellarmine doth of the Pope that if they should command vices and forbid vertues we were bound to believe vices to be good and vertues to be evil No we know the Apostle bids us prove all things and hold fast that which is good 1 Thess 5. 21. But let us see what it is that the Marquesse doth say and first of Luther 1. He chargeth Luther as saying of the book of Ecclesiastes That it hath never a perfect sentence in it and that the Author thereof had neither boots nor spurs but rid upon a long stick or in begging shooes as he did when he was a Friar The places which the Marquesse citeth for proof of this I cannot examine they not being in Luthers Works of that Edition at least which I have liberty to peruse But therein I find that Luther doth comment upon the book of Ecclesiastes and doth speak after a far other manner of it saying that it is a Book worthy that all should be much versed in it and that all and especially Magistrates should be well acquainted with it 2. He taxeth Luther for saying of the book of Job That the argument thereof is a meer fiction invented only for the setting down of a true and lively example of patience If Luther did say thus which is more also then I can find though I am far from being of his mind for I suppose that if there had not indeed been such a man as Job in the history of him is described the Prophet Ezekiel and S. James would not have mentioned him as they do Ezek. 14. 14 20. Jam. 5. 11. Yet that most famous Doctor amongst the Jewes Moses Maimonides shewes that some were of this opinion that there never was such a man as Job and that the history of him is but a parable And this opinion himself inclines unto though I confesse his reason is of small force viz. because they that hold otherwise cannot agree about the time in which Job lived 3. Luther as is alleadged against him saith That it is a false opinion and to be abolished that there are four Gospels and that the Gospel of S. John is only true Neither can I find any such thing as this in Luther that the Gospels written by the other three Evangelists Matthew Marke and Luke are not as true as that written by John But I finde that which doth sufficiently evince the contrary viz. that Luther in the fifth volume of his Works hath Annotations upon the first seventeen Chapters of St. Matthews Gospel and that in his Notes upon the first Chapter he divers times calls both Matthew and Luke Evangelists or publishers of the Gospel 4. Luther as the Marquesse alledgeth saith of the Epistle of S. James That it is contentious swelling dry strawy and unworthy an Apostolical spirit Thus also divers other Romanists have charged Luther as Campian Duraeus Breerley and Silvester Petrasancta yet the words which they mention are not to be found in Luthers works But say the Romanists they were in them though afterward they were left out I answer Then it seems if there were any such words they were not approved Duraeus confesseth that those words are not in Luthers works set forth either at Wittemberge or at Strasburge but onely in those set forth at Jena which argues that if there were any such words they found but little approbation Mr. Breerley saith that the later Editions of Luthers works at Wittemberge were corrupted by the Zuinglians and others But surely if Luthers Works were corrupted and that in the Editions of Wittemberge it must be by others and not by the Zuinglians For is it likely that the Zuinglians who were such adversaries unto Luther that Mr. Breerly and after him the Marquesse doth frequently alledge them against Luther is it likely I say that they should corrupt Luthers Works in that kinde so as indeed to purge them from that which was amisse in them And if they would do Luther this favour yet how should they do it at Wittemberge where I suppose not the Zuinglians but the Lutherans did bear sway and would have the chief hand in setting forth Luthers Works in that place And for that first Edition of Luthers Works at Jena though it seems Luther did speak lesse honorably of St. James his Epistle as I confesse I find him to speak elsewhere in his Works yet not so basely as his adversaries of Rome do charge him Gerhard a great Lutheran saith that Luther indeed in his Preface to S. James his Epistle in the first Edition of the German Bible did say that this Epistle is not of like worth with the Epistles of Paul and Peter and that it is strawie if it be compared with those Epistles But that he no where tearms it contentious swelling dry nor yet simply but onely comparatively strawie And that after the year 1526. in no Edition of Luthers Works it is so called but the contrary rather is to be found to wit that Luther did commend this Epistle though some of the Ancients did reject it and account it good and profitable It seems then that Luther himself did retract that which hee had written concerning the Epistle of S. James his censure of it having been too bad though yet not so bad as the Romanists would make it
c. It is answered that there were two conversions the first of the Brittains the second of the Saxons we onely require this justice from you as you are English not Welch-men for the Church of England involves all the Brittains within her Communion for the Brittains have not now any distinct Church from the Church of England Now if Your Majestie please I expect your further Objections King My Lord I have not done with you yet though particular Churches may fall away in their severall respects of obedience to one supreme Authority yet it follows not that the Church should be thereby divided for as long as they agree in the unity of the same spirit and the bond of peace the Church is still at unitie as so many sheaves of corne are not unbound because they are severed Many sheaves may belong to one field to one man and may be carryed to one barne and be servient to the same table Unity may consist in this as well as in being hudled up together in a rick with one cock-sheave above the rest I have an hundred pieces in my pocket I find them something heavie I divide the summe halfe in one pocket and halfe in another and subdivide them afterwards in two severall lesser pockets The moneys is divided but the summe is not broke the hundred pounds is as whole as when it was together because it belongs to the same man and is in the same possession so though we divide our selves from Rome if neither of us divide our selves from Christ we agree in him who is the Center of all unitie though we differ in matter of depending upon one another But my Lord of Worcester we are got into such a large field of discourse that the greatest Schollers of them all can sooner shew us the way in then out of it therefore before we goe too far let us retire lest we lose our selves and therefore I pray my Lord satisfie me in these particulars Why doe you leave out the second Commandement and cut another in two why doe you with-hold the Cup from the Laytie why have you seven Sacraments when Christ instituted but two why doe you abuse the World with such a fable as Purgatory and make ignorant fooles believe you can fish soules from thence with silver hookes why doe you pray to Saints and worship Images Those are the offences which are given by your Church of Rome unto the Church of Christ of these things I would be satisfied Marq. Sir although the Church be undefiled yet she may not be spotlesse to severall apprehensions For the Church is compared to the Moon that is full of spots but they are but spots of our fancying though the Church be never so comly yet she is described unto us to have black eye-browes which may to some be as great an occasion of dislike as they are to others foyles which set her off more lovely We must not make our fancies judgements of condemnation to her with whom Christ so much was ravished For Your Majesties Objections and first as to that of leaving out the second Commandment and cutting another in two I beseech Your Majestie who called them Commandments who told you they were ten who told you which were first and second c. The Scripture onely called them words those words but these and these words were never divided in the Scriptures into ten Commandments but two Tables the Church did all this and might as well have named them twenty as ten Commandments that which Your Majestie calls the second Commandment is but the explanation of the first and is not razed out of the Bible but for brevitie sake in the manualls it is left out as the rest of the Commandment is left out concerning the Sabbath and others wherefore the same Church which gave them their Name their Number and their Distinction may in their breviats leave out what she deems to be but exposition and deliver what she thinks for substance without any such heavie charge as being blottable out of the booke of life for diminishing the word of God For withholding the Cup from the Laytie where did Christ either give or command to be given either the Bread or the Wine to any such Drink ye all of this but they were all Apostles to whom he said so there were neither Lay-men or women there If the Church allowed them afterwards to receive it either in one or both kinds they ought to be satisfied therewith accordingly but not question the Churches Actions She that could alter the Sabbath into the Lords day and change the dipping of the Baptised over head and eares in water to a little sprinkling upon the face by reason of some emergencies and inconveniencies occasioned by the difference of Seasons and Countries may upon the like occasion accordingly dispose of the manner of her Administration of her Sacraments Neither was this done without great reason the world had not wine in all her Countries but it had bread Wherefore it was thought for uniformity sake that they might not be unlike to one another but all receive alike that they should onely receive the Bread which was to be had in every place and not the Cup in regard that Wine was not every where to be had I wonder that any body should be so much offended at any such thing for Bread and Wine doe signifie Christ crucified I appeal to common reason if a dead body doth not represent a passion as much as if we saw the bloud lie by it If you grant the Churches Power in other matters and rest satisfied therein why do you boggle at this especially when any Priest where Wine is to be had if you desire it he will give it you But if upon every mans call the Church should fall to reforming upon every seeming fault which may be but supposed to be found the people would never stop untill they had made such a through Reformation in all parts as they have done in the greatest part of Germany where there is not a man to Preach or hear the Gospell to eat the Bread or drink the Wine you never pickt so many holes in our Coates as this licentiousnesse hath done in yours For our seven Sacraments she that called the Articles of our Faith 12 the Beatitudes 8 the Graces 3 the Virtues 4 called these 7 and might have called them 17 if she had thought it meet A Sacrament is nothing else but what is done with a holy mind and why Sacrament either in Name or Number should be confin'd to Christs onely Institution I see no cause for it If I can prove that God did institute such a thing in Paradise as he did Marriage shall not I call that a Sacrament as well as what was instituted by Christ when he was upon the Earth If Christ institutes the Order of giving and receiving the holy Ghost shall not I call this the Sacrament of Orders If Christ injoynes us all repentance
their owne severall Dominions practising disobedience to their Superiours they teach it to their Inferiours The greatest Unitie the Protestants have is not in believing but in not believing in knowing rather what they are against then what they are for not so much in knowing what they would have as in knowing what they would not have But let these negative Religions take heed they meet not with a negative Salvation Neither can the Conversion of Nations be attributed to any other Church then to the Roman which is another mark of the true Church according to the Prophesies of Esay cap. 49. 23. Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Queens thy nursing mothers And Esay 60. 16. Thou shalt suck the milk of the Gentiles and the breasts of Kings shall minister unto thee And Esay 60. 10. And thy Gates shall be continually open that men may bring to thee the riches of the Gentiles and that their Kings may be brought And the Iles shall doe thee service And the Prophet David I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession c. Now no Protestant Church ever converted any one Nation Kingdome or People Many Protestant people have fallen away from the Church of Rome but this cannot be called conversion but rather perversion for the Romane Church may justly say of such these have not converted Nations from paganisme to Christianity which is the mark of the true Church These are they which went forth from us 1 Joh. 2. 19. Certaine that went forth from us Act. 15. 14. These are certaine men who rise out of our selves speaking perverse things Act. 20. 30. These were they who separated themselves Iude 19. which are marks of false and hereticall Churches But the Romane Church I find stretching forth her armes from East to West receiving and imbracing all within her Communion For the first three hundred years the Church grew down-ward like a strong building whose foundations are first laid in the earth whose stones are knit together in Unity by the morter that was tempered with the blood of her ten Persecutions Afterwards this building hasting upwards Constantine the great Emperour submitting his neek unto the yoke of Christ subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester then Pope of Rome from which time to these our dayes the Pope and his Clergy hath possessed the outward and visible Church as is confessed by Napier a learned Protestant in his treatise upon the Revelation pag. 145. and all along hath added Kingdomes upon Kingdoms to her Communion untill she had incorporated into her selfe not onely Europe but Asia Africa and America as Simon Lythus a Protestant writer affirmeth viz. The Jesuits have filled Asia Africa and America with their Idols as he calls them for the late Conversions of the East and West-Indies by the Romans if you read Joan. Petrus Maffeus Hist Indicarum Jos Acosta de natur novi orbis You shall find that no Church in the world hath ever spread so farre and wide as the Church of Rome Wherefore I hope in this respect also I may safely conclude that the Church of Rome most justly deserves to be called the Catholick Church Neither is it a vainer thing to say that the Pope of Rome cannot be head of the Church because Christ himselfe is head thereof then it is for a man to say that the King of England cannot be King of England because God is King of all the earth Psal 46. 8. As if the King could not be Gods Vice-gerent and the peoples visible God so the Pope Christs Vicar or Deputy and the Churches visible head And let Kings beware how they give way to such Arguments as these lest at the last such inferences be made upon themselves As strange an inference is that how that the Church was not built upon Peter because it was built upon his Confession as if it might not be built casually upon the one and formally upon the other as if both these could not stand together As if the Confession of Peters Faith might not be the cause why Christ built his Church upon his Person as if Christ did not as well personally tell him Tu es Petrus as significantly super hanc Petram id est super istam Confessionem aedificabo Ecclesiam No lesse invalid is that Objection of Protestants against the oeconomacy of the Bishop of Rome viz. that saying of Greg. sometimes Bishop of that sea viz. He that intituled himself universall Bishop exalted himself like Lucifer above his brethren and was a fore-runner of Antichrist As if there were no more meanings in the word Universality than one as if there were not a Metaphoricall as well as a Literall and Grammaticall sense as if Saint Gregory might not censure this title of Universality in the Grammaticall and exclusive meaning which being so taken would have excluded all other Bishops from their Offices Essences and Proprieties which they held under Christ thereby depriving them of the Key of orders and yet still keep the Superiority viz. of one Bishop over another and himself over all in a Metaphoricall and transferent sense thereby still keeping the Key of Jurisdiction in his own hands and this not onely is but must be the meaning of Saint Gregory for he thus explicates the matter himself lib. 4. ind 13. cp 32. viz. The care of the Church hath been committed to the Prince of all the Apostles Saint Peter and yet had Saint Peter called himselfe the Universall Apostle in the first sence seeing that Christ Jesus made other Apostles as well as him he had been no Apostle himself but Antichrist and yet this hindred not but that the care and principality was committed unto Peter Whereby you may plainly see how he ascribes a head-ship over the Church whilst he denies the Universality of Episcopacy Wherefore having shewed Your Majesty my Church I humble beg that You will be pleased either to give me a few lines in answer hereunto or else to shew me Yours The KINGS Paper in Answer to the Marquesse MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I find that it is no strange thing to see Errour tryumph in Antiquity and flourish all those Ensignes of Universality Succession Unity Conversion of Nations c. in the face of Truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Iews or Gentiles as to besmear the face of Truth with spots of novelty For this was Ieremiahs case Ier. 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly doe whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our owne mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of heaven and to powre out drink-offerings unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquity we and our Fathers there is
believed crederem for credidissem the Gospel except the authority of the Church did move or had moved comoveret for commovisset me to it 364 365 c. The Contents of the Second Part of the Rejoynder 1 OF the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England Page 1 2 2 Of Luthers Doctrine 3 to 20 3 Zuinglius vindicated from that which by the way is charged upon him 19 4 Of Calvines Doctrine 20 to 35 5 Of Zuinglius his Doctrine 35 to 40 6 Of Melancthons Doctrine 40 41 42. 7 Of Andreas Musculus his Doctrine 42. and in the addition 8 Of the divisons that are among Protestants 42 9 Of that Unity which is among them of the Church of Rome 42 to 46 10 Of Crimes charged upon Protestants and the testimonies alledged for proof of them 46 11 Of Luthers conference with the Devil 46 47 48 12 Whether Zuinglius were an Authour of war and a disturber of peace c. 48 49 13 Beza cleared of a foul aspersion cast upon him 49 50 14 Of Luthers writing against King Henry 8. 50 51 15 Of the people of the reformed Churches whether they be so vitious and corrupt as they are censured 51 52 16 A vindication of Calvin in respect of vild aspersions cast upon him 53 54 17 Mantuans testimony concerning Rome and the corrupt estate of it 54 55 18 Whether the Doctrine of the Church of Rome be the the same still that it was at first 55 19 Of Prayers for the Dead 55 56 57 20 Of Lent-Fast 57 58 21 Of mingling Water with Wine in the Lords Supper 58 59 60 22 Of diverse ceremonies which the Church of Rome useth in Baptisme 60 61 23 Of the necessity of Infants Baptisme and whether they may be saved without it 61 62 63 24 Of the several Ecclesiastical Orders which they have in the Church of Rome 63 64 65 25 Of the Pope and his supremacy 65 66 67 26 Of service in an unknown tongue 67 68 69 27 Of Festivals 69 70 28 Of Reliques 70 71 29 Of Pictures and Images 71 to 77 30 Of the signe of the Crosse 77 31 Of Luther Husse and Wickliffe holding some errours and so others that oppose the Church of Rome 78 32 That some before Berengarius as namely Bertram did professedly impugne that reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament which they of the Church of Rome maintain 79 80 CERTAMEN RELI GIOSUM OR A CONFERENCE BETWEEN The late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning Religion at His Majesties being at Ragland-Castle 1646. Marquesse SIr I hope if they catch us in the act it will not be deemed in me an act of so high conspiracy in regard that I enter the lists leaning upon a Doctor of your own Church To whom the King replyed as merrily My Lord I know not whether I should have a better opinion of your Lordship for the Doctors sake or a worse opinion of the Doctor for your Lordships sake for though you leane much upon his arme yet he may lean more upon your judgment Marq. Sir it conduceth a little to the purpose we have in hand to be a little serious in the thing you speak of your Majesty knows the grounds of my acquaintance with the Doctor and my obligation to him which difference in opinion shall never mitigate in point of affection but I protest unto you I could never gain the least ground of him yet in perswading him from his principles King It may be your Lordship hopes to meet with a weaker Disputant of me Marq. Not so and if it please your Majesty but I think thus That if it should please God to make me so happy an instrument of his Churches good as to be a means to incline your royall heart to imbrace the truth I beleeve that he and thousands such as he would be soon brought to follow your Majesty in the right way who are so constant followers of your steps whilst you are in a wrong path the Oaths which they have taken the relation which their Hierarchy have to the Crown which must be no longer so but whilst the government of the Church and soules stand as a reserve to the regiment of lives and fortunes the preferment which they expect from your Majesty and the enjoyment of those preferments which they have already which they must no longer enjoy then whilst they are or seem to be of your opinion causeth them to smother their own knowledge whilst their mouths are stopt with interest whereas if the strong Tide of your Majesties opinion were but once turn'd all the ships in the river would soon turn head Hereupon the Marquesse fell abruptly from his subject and asked the King Sir I pray tell me what is it that you want The King smiled a little at his sudden breaking off and making such preposterous haste to aske that question answered King My Lord I want an Army can you help me to one Marq. Yes that I can and to such a one as should your Majesty commit your self to their fidelity you should be a Conquerour fight as often as you please King My Lord such an Army would do the businesse I pray let me have it Marq. What if your Majesty would not confide in it when it should be presented unto you King My Lord I would fain see it and as fain confide in that of which I had reason to be confident Marq. Take Gedeons three hundred men and let the rest be gone King Your Lordship speaks mystically will it please you to be plain a little Marq. Come I see I must come nearer to you Sir it is thus God expected a work to be done by your hands but you have not answered his expectation nor his mercy towards you when your enemies had more Cities and Garrisons then you had private families to take your part when they had more Cannons then you had Muskets when the people crouded to heap treasures against you whilst your Majesties friends were fain here and there to make a gathering for you when they had Navies at Sea whilst your Majesty had not so much as a Boat upon the River whilst the oddes in number against you was like a full crop against a gleaning then God wrought his miracle in making your gleaning bigger then their vintage he put the power into your hand and made you able to declare your self a true man to God and gratefull to your friends but like the man whom the Prophet makes mention of who bestowed great cost and paines upon his vincyard and at last it brought forth nothing but wilde grapes so when God had done all these things for You and expected that You should have given his Church some respit to their oppressions I heard say You made vows that if God blest You but that day with Victory You would not leave a Catholike in Your Army for which I feare the Lord is so angry with You that I am
your Religions antiquity and you shall find as much difference in their Articles and ours as can be between Churches that are most opposite Come home to your owne Countrey and derive your descent from Wickliffe and search for his Tenents in the booke of Martyrs and you shall find them quite contrary to ours neither amongst any of your moderne Protestants shall you find any other agreement but in this one thing that they all protest against the Pope Shew me but any Protestant Countrey in the world where Reformation as you call it ever set her foot where she was not as well attended with sacriledge as usher'd by Rebellion and I shall lay my hand upon my mouth for ever King My Lord my Lord you are gone beyond the scope of your Argument which required you to prove the Romane Church more Catholick then the Greek which you have not done you put me off with my being English and not a Grecian whereas when we speak of the universality of a Church I think that any man who is belonging to the universe is objectum rationis And if that be the manner of your Election then I am sure most voices must carry it for your alleaged submission of the Greek Church unto the Roman I believe it cannot be prov'd but it may be the Patriarch of Constantinople may submit unto the Pope of Rome and yet the Greek Church may not submit unto the Romane Marq. Sir it is no dishonour for the Sun to make its progress from East to West it is still the same Sun and the difference is onely in the shadowes which are made to differ according to the varieties of shapes that the severall substances are of East and West are two divisions but the same day neither can they be said or imagined to be greater or more extending one or other and the one may have the benefit of the Suns light though the other may have its glory and I believe no man of sober judgment can say that any Church in the world is more generally spread over the face of the whole world or that her glory shines in any place more conspicuously then at this day in Rome King My Lord if externall glory be the Sun-shine of the Gospel then the Church is there indeed but if internall sanctity and inward holynesse be the Essences of a Church then we may be as much to seek for such a Church within the Wals of Rome as any where else Marq. Who shall be Judge of that I pray observe the Injustice and Errours that will arise if every man may be admitted to be his owne judge you of the Church of England left your Mother the Church of Rome and Mother to all the Churches round about You forsook her and set up a new Church of your own Independent to her there comes a new generation and doth the like to you and a third generation that is likely to do the like to that and the Church falls and falls untill it falls to all the pieces of Independencie It is a hard case for a part to fall away from the whole and to be their owne judges Why should not Kent fall away from England and be their owne judges as well as England fall away from Christendome and be their own judges why should not a Parish in Kent fall away from the whole County and be their owne judges why should not one Family fall away from the whole Parish and be their owne judges why should not one man fall away in his opinion from that Family and be his owne judge If you grant one you must grant all and I feare me in doing one you have done all So that every man despiseth the Church whilst he is a Church in himselfe rayles against Popery and is the greatest Pope himselfe despiseth the Fathers and will enthrone his own judgment above the wisdome of the ancient refuseth Expositours that he may have his own sence and if he can start up but some new opinions he thinks himselfe as worthy a member of Christianity as if he were an Apostle to some new found land Now Sir though some do take the Church to be the Scriptures yet the Scriptures cannot be the Church because the Scriptures send us to the Church audi Ecclesiam dic Ecclesiae others take the Elect to be the Church yet this cannot be for we know not who are elect and who are not that which must be the Church must be a visible an eminent societie of men to whose Authority in cases of appeale and matter of judgement we are to acquiesce and subscribe And I appeale to Your Royall heart whether there be a Church in the world whom in these respects we ought to reverence and esteeme more then the Church of Rome and that the Church of Rome is externally glorious it doth not follow that therefore she is not internally holy for the Kings daughters clothing was of wrought gold as well as she was all glorious within and though she had never so many Divine graces within her yet she had honourable women without her as her attendants and for the question whether this inward glory is to be so much sought for within the gates of Rome is the question and not yet decided King My Lord I 'le deale as ingenuously with you as I can When the Romane Monarch stretch'd forth his arms from East to West he might make the Bishops of Romes oecumenacy as large as was his Empire and all the Churches in the world were bound to follow her Lawes and decretalls because God hath made such Emperours nursing Fathers of his Church as it was prophesied by the Divine Esay alwayes provided that the child be not pourtractured greater then the Nurse as hath been observed by the pride of your Bishops of Rome but when the severall Kingdoms of Christendome shook off the Romane Yoke I see no reason why the Bishop of Rome should expect obedience from the Clergie of other Countries any more then the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury should expect obedience from the Clergie of other Kingdoms And for your deriving your Authority from Saint Peter I know no reason why we may not as well derive our Authority from Simon Zelotes or Joseph of Arimathea or from Philip of whose planting the Gospell we have as good warrant as you have for Saint Peter his planting the Gospel in Rome But my Lord I must tell you that there are other Objections to be made against your Church which more condemns her if these were answered Marq. May it please Your Majestie to give me leave to speak a word or two to what I have said and then I shall humbly beg Your further Objections As to that of the Christian Kingdomes shaking off the Roman Yoke and falling to pieces which was so prophesied it should yet the Church should not doe so because it is said it shall remaine in unitie and for Your Majesties objection concerning Simon Zelotes Joseph of Arimathea
else matters of that nature will never be determined which societie is there called the Church which Church we are to find King I pray my Lord what doe you meane by the holy Catholick Church doe you meane the Church of Rome Marq. I doe so King My thinks it should be inconsistent with it to be both universall and particular Marq. No more then it is inconsistent for the Generall of Your Army to be Generall of all Your Officers and Souldiers and yet a particular man By the word Roman we intend not the particular Church of Rome but all the Churches which adhere and are joyned in Communion with the Roman Church as by the Jewish Church was not onely meant the Church of Judah onely but of all the other Tribes which had Communion with her the word Catholick is taken in three severall sences formally casually and participatively In the first sence the Societie of all the true particular Churches united in one selfe-same Communion is called Catholick Casually the Roman Church is called Catholick for as much as she infuseth universalitie into all the whole body of the Catholick Church wherefore being a Center and beginning of Ecclesiasticall Communion infusing unitie which is the form of universalitie into the Catholick Church she may be called Catholick Participatively because particular Churches agree and participate in Doctrine and Communion with the Catholick King You have satisfied me why the Church of Rome in your sence may be called Catholick but you have not yet satisfied me why other Churches may not be called casually as much Catholick as she being the Greek Church hath infused as much universalitie into the whole body of the Catholick Church as she did and was both center and circumference as much as ever she was Marq. Sir as to this point I shall refer your Majestie to the learned reply that the profound Card. Peroon so respectfully and learnedly made to Your royall Father his Apologie wherein this point is largely and to my apprehension fully answered But will Your Majestie either give or take either let me shew you this Church or else doe Your Majestie shew it me King My Lord if you can shew it me I shall not shut mine eyes against it But at this time truly my Lord I can hardly hold them open My Lord I pray will you set downe your mind in writing and I will promise you it shall want no animadversion and that I will give you my clear opinion concerning it Marq. O Sir Literae scriptae manent I doe not like that what I speak hère to your Majestie I can promise my selfe so much from your goodnesse that no bad Construction shall be made of what I speak But if my writing should come into other folks hands I may justly fear their comments wherefore I desire to be excused King My Lord I hold it more convenient so to doe I will promise you that I will let no eyes but mine owne view your Paper and I will returne it to you againe by the Doctor Marq. Upon that Condition I am contented I have one request more unto your Majestie that You would make one Prayer to God to direct You in the right way and that You would lay aside all prejudice and selfe-interest and that You will not so much fear the Subject as the Superiour who is over all and then You cannot doe amisse King My Lord all this shall be done by the Grace of God Whereupon the Marquesse called upon me to help him so that he might kneel and being upon his knees he desired to kisse His Majesties hand which he did saying Sir I have not a thought in my heart that tends not to the service of my God and you and if I could have resisted this motion of his Spirit I had desisted long ago but I could not wherefore on both my knees I pray to his Divine Majestie that he will not be wanting to his owne Ordinance but will direct Your understanding to those things which shall make You a happy King upon Earth and a Saint in Heaven And thereupon he fell a weeping bidding me to light His Majestie to His Chamber As the King was going he said unto the Marquesse My Lord it is great pittie that you should be in the wrong Whereat the Marquesse soone replyed It is greater pittie that You should not be in the right The King said God direct us both The Marquesse said Amen Amen I pray God Thus they both parted and as I was lighting His Majestie to His Chamber His Majestie told me that he did not think to have found the old man so ready at it and that he believed he was a long time putting on his armour yet it was hardly proofe To which I made answer that I believe his Lordship had more reason to wonder how His Majestie so unprepared could withstand the on-set The King being brought to His door commanded me that before I brought him his Lordspips Paper I should peruse it and give him my opinion of it Which I promised to obey and so returned to the Marquesse whom I found in the dark upon his knees whom I did not disturbe but when he rose he said unto me Doctor I will tell you what I was doing I was giving God thanks that he had preserved the use of my memory for so good a work and imploring a blessing upon my endeavours To which I made answer My Lord no question but you think it a good work or else you would not implore Gods blessing upon it Whereupon my Lord said Ah! Doctor I would to God you thought so too And waiting upon him into his Chamber he further said unto me Doctor Bayly you know I am obliged not to speak unto you in this nature yet I hope I may say thus much unto you without any breach of promise you may be an Instrument of the greatest good that ever befell this Nation I say no more Good night to you The third day after he gave me this Paper to deliver unto His Majestie which I did The Marquesse his Paper to the King IT must be granted by all that there must be alwayes in the world one holy Catholick and Apostolique Church one that it may be uniforme holy that it may be certaine Catholick that it may be knowne and Apostolick that it may succeed this Church must be either the Romane or the Protestant or else some other that is opposite to both It cannot be any Church which is opposite to both because the Church of England did not when she separated from the Romane joyn her selfe to any not to the Grecian for that holds as many Doctrines contrary to the Church of England as doth the Roman nor to any else because she agrees with none no reformed Church under the Sun that is or ever was hath the same articles of beliefe as hath the Church of England And from any other Church besides the Romane she never had a being and with
any other Church besides the Romane she never had Communion She cannot be that one because she is but one nor Catholick because she agrees not with any nor Apostolick because she hath acknowledged such a fine and recovery that has quite cut off the entaile which would have otherwise descended unto her from the Apostles neither can she be holy because she is none of all the other three Now if these Attributes cannot belong unto the Protestant Religion and do clearly belong unto the Roman then is the Church of Rome the Catholick Church And that it doth I shall prove it by the marks which God Almighty hath given us whereby we should know her And the first is Universality All Nations shall flow unto her Esa 2. 2. And the Psalmist The heathen shall be thine inheritance and the uttermost part of the Earth for thy possession Psal 2. 2. And our Saviour Matth. 20. 14. This Gospell of the Kingdome shall be preached in all the world as a witnesse to all Nations c. Now I confesse that this glory is belonging to all Professors of the Christian Religion yet amongst all those who do professe the name of Christ I believe Your Majestie will consent with me herein that the Romane Church hath this forme of universality not onely above all different and distinct Professors of Religion but also beyond all Religions of the world Turkes or Heathens and that there is no place in the world where there are not Romance Catholicks which is manifestly wanting to all other Religions whatsoever Now I hope Your Majestie cannot say so of any Protestant Religion neither that Your Majestie will call all those who protest against the Church of Rome otherwise then Protestants but not Protestant Catholicks or Catholicks of the Protestant Religion being they are not religated within the same Communion and fellowships for then Religion would consist in protestation rather then unity in Nations falling off from one another rather then all Nations flowing to one another neither is it a Consideration altogether invalid that the Church of Rome hath kept possession of the name all along other reformed Churches leaving her in possession of the name and taking unto themselves new names according to their severall founders except the Church of England who is now her selfe become like a Chapter that is full of nothing else whose founder was such a one whose name it may be they were unwilling to owne For antiquity if we should inquire after the old paths which is the good way and walke therein as the Prophet Jeremiah adviseth us if we should take our Saviours rule Ab initio autem non fuit sic if we should observe his saying how the good seed was first sowed and then the tares If we should consider the pit from whence we were dug and the rock from whence we were hewen we shall find antiquity more applicatory to the Church of Rome then any Protestant Church But you will say your Religion is as ancient as ours having its procedure from Christ and his Apostles so say the Lutheran Protestants with their Doctrine of Consubstantiation and many other sorts of Protestants having other Tenents altogether contrary to what you hold how shall we reconcile you so say all hereticks that ever were how shall we confute them a part to set up themselmes against the whole and by the power of the sword to make themselves Judges in their owne causes is dealing that were it your case I am sure you would think it very hard I wish you may never find it so For Visibility Our Saviour compares his Church to a Citie placed on a hill according unto the Prophet Davids Prophesie a Tabernacle in the Sun It is likewise compared unto a candle in a candle-stick not under a bushell and saith our Saviour If they shall say unto you behold he is in the desart go ye not forth Behold he is in secret places believe it not forewarning us against obscure and invisible Congregations Now I beseech Your Majestie whether should I betake my selfe to a Church that was alwayes visible and gloriously eminent or to a Protestant Church that was never eminent and for the most part invisible shrowding their defection under an Apostolicall Expression of a woman in the Revelation who fled into the wildernesse for a thousand years as if an allegory could wipe out so many clear texts of Scripture as are set down by our Saviour and the Prophets concerning the Churches invisibility And I could not find any Church in the world to whom that Prophesie of Esay might more fitly appertain then to the Church of Rome I have set watch-men upon the walls which shall never hold their peace day nor night which I am sure no Protestant Church can apply to her selfe It is not enough to say I maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the Apostles taught and therefore I am of the true Church ancient and visible enough because as I have said before every heretick will say as much but if you cannot by these marks of the Church set down in Scripture clear your selves to be the true Church you vainly appeale to the Scriptures siding with you in any particular point for what can be more absurd then to appeale from Scripture setting things down clearly unto Scripture setting down things more obscurely There is no particular point of Doctrine in the holy Scripture so manifestly set downe as that concerning the Church and the Markes thereof nothing set down more copious and perspicuous then the visibility perpetuitie and amplitude of the Church So that Saint Augustin did not stick to say that the Scriptures were more clear about the Church then they were about Christ Let him answer for it He said so in his book de unitate Ecclesiae and this he said was the reason because God in his wisdome would have the Church to be described without any ambiguity that all Controversies about the Church may be clearly decided whereby questions about particular Doctrines may find determinations in her judgement and that Visibility might shew the way unto the most rude and ignorant and I know not any Church to whom it may more justly be attributed then to the Church of Rome whose Faith as in the beginning was spread through the whole world so all along and at this day it is generally known among all nations Next to this I prove the Catholick Church to be the Romane because a lawfull succession of Pastors is required in every true Church according to the Prophet Esay his Prophecie concerning her viz. My Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever This succession I can find onely in the Church of Rome This succession they onely can prove nons else offering to go about it This succession Saint
Augustin sayes kept him in that Church viz. a succession of Priests from the very seat of Peter the Apostle to the present Bishop of his time And Optatus Milevitanus reckons all the Romane Bishops from Saint Peter to Syricius who then was Pope and by this he shewed and made it his Argument that the true Church was not with the Donatists bidding them to shew the originall of their Chayre this no Protestant did or ever can doe The Romane Church gave the English Bishops Commission to preach the Doctrine of Christ as they have delivered it unto them but they never gave them any Commission to preach against her Religion which Bishops being turned out for observing the depositum wherewith they were instructed and new Bishops chosen in their room by her who not contenting her selfe with being a nursing mother thereof must needs be head of the child and moderatrix in the same Church wherein by the Apostles precept she is forbidden to speak the succession was broke off the branch cut off from the body becoming no part of the tree fit for nothing but to be chopt into smaller pieces and so fitted for the fire this proofe of succession the Bishops of England thought so necessary for proving their Church to be the true Church that they affirmed themselves to be consecrated by Catholick Bishops their Predecessors which never proved argues the interruption and affirming it shews how that in their owne opinion the succession could not hold in the inferiour Ministers as indeed it cannot for as there is a continued supply of Embassadours in all places yet the succession is in the royall race so though all vacancies are replenished by Ministers of the Gospel yet the succession of the Authority was in the Bishops as descended to them from the Apostles according to our Saviours rule I will be with you alwayes unto the end of the world Which Affirmation of theirs argues that their calling is sufficient without it and in that they would faine derive it from the Church of Rome it argues that that is the true Church and yet they would forsake her supposing her to have errors when that Reformation it selfe was but a supposition for seeing they hold that their Church may erre they can be certain of nothing and whilst for errors sake they forsake the Church of Rome the Church of England in forsaking her may be in the greatest error of all where there is neither Succession nor assurance I must leave her to her selfe and your Majestie to judge Next I prove the Romane Church to be the true Church by her unity in Doctrine for so the Apostle Paul requires all the Churches children to be of one mind viz. I beseech you that all speak one thing Be ye knit together in one mind and one Judgement 1 Cor. 1. Endeavouring to keep the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace Ephes 4. 3. The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul Act. 4. 32. Continue in one Spirit and one mind of one accord and one judgement Phil. 1. 27. Phil. 2. 2. So our Saviour prayeth that they may be one So Joseph forewarned his brethren that they should not fall out by the way knowing that whilst they were with him he could order them when they came to their father he could order them but having no head they should be apt to be dissentious This Unity I find no where but in the Church of Rome agreeing in all things which the Church of Rome hath determined for Doctrine whereas the Protestant Doctrine like the heresie of Simon Magus divided it selfe into severall Sects and to that of the Donatists which were cut into small threds in so much that among the many Religions which are lately sprung up and the sub sub sub-divisions under them each one pretending to be the true Protestant excluding the other and all of them together no more likely to be bound up in the bond of peace then a bundle of thornes can expect binding with a rope of sand In vaine is their excuse if non-disagreement in fundameatalls for they dis-agree amongst themselves about the Sacrament for the Lutherans hold Consubstantiation but the Church of England no such matter Some that Christ descended into hell others not The Church of England maintain their King to be the head of the Church The Helvetians will acknowledge no such matter the Presbyterians will acknowledge no such matter the Independent will acknowledge no such matter Concerning the Government of the Church by Bishops some Protestants maintaine it to be Jure Divino others to be Jure Ecclesiastico others no such matter Some think that the English translations of the Bible in some places takes away in other places addes and other some places changes the meaning of the holy Ghost and some think it no such matter or else the Bishops would not have recommended it unto the people Lastly they are so far from agreeing about the true meaning of the word of God that they cannot agree upon what is the word of God For Lutherans deny the second Epistle of Saint Peter the second and third Epistle of Saint John the Epistle to the Hebr. the Epistle of Saint James and Saint Jude and the Revelation The Calvinists and the Church of England no such matter they allow them And I believe that these are fundamentalls If they cannot agree upon their Principalls how shall they agree upon the deductions thence If these be not fundamentall points how come Protestants to fight against Protestants for the Protestants Religion The disagreement is not so amongst the Romane Catholicks for all points of the Romane Religion that have been defined by the Church in a generall Councell are agreed upon exactly by all nations tongues and people uibicunque terrarum but in those points which are not determined by the Church the Church leaves every man to abound in his owne sense and therefore all the heat that is either between the Thomists and the Scolists the Dominicans and the Jesuits either concerning the Conception of our blessed Lady or the concurrence of Grace and free-will c. being points wherein the Church hath not interposed her decrees is no more prejudicall or objectionall against the Church of Romes Unitie then the disputations in the Schools of our Universities are prejudiciall to the 39. Articles of the Church of England But in each severall Protestant Dominion there are certain severall Articles of beliefe belonging to severall Protestant Dominions in which severall agreements not any one agrees with any of all the rest neither is there any possibility they should being there is no means acknowledged nor power ordained whereby they should be gathered together in one councell whereby they might be of one heart and of one soule neither is there this Unitie in any one particular Dominion as is in the Dominion of the Roman Church for they are all in pieces amongst themselves even in
acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig. Hom. 2. in Levit. S. Chrys lib. 3. de Sacerd. S. Aug. in speculo Ser. 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speak in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknowne to all the former ages and then tell us that she saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith Saint Aug Evangelio non crederum nisi me Ecclesiae anthoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it selfe unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knows how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the onely antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewne Your Majestie how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider your opinions apart from us and see how they are yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selves and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirms we affirme the same as the Reall presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Church confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. All these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture onely inference then that which ye have already denyed and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church that which ye hold positive in your Discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in your Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellour should excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens soules into the Devils hands should not be executed and upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted Authority lest otherwise you make the Authority it selfe to be doubted of A strange Religion whose Ministers are denyed the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a threepeny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Excommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be the word of God in all ages As The book of Eccles saying That it hath never a perfect sentence in it and that the Author thereof had neither boots nor spurs but rid upon a long stick or begging shooes as he did when he was a Fryar And the book of Job that the argument thereof is a meer fiction invented onely for the setting downe of a true and lively example of patience That it is a false opinion and to be abolished that there are four Gospels and that the Gospel of S. John is only true That the Epistle of S. James is contentious swelling dry strawy and unworthy an Apostolical spirit And that Moses in his writings shewes unpleasant stopped and angry lips in which the word of grace is not but of wrath death and sin He calls him a Goaler Executioner and a cruell Serjeant For his doctrine He holds a threefold Divinity or three kinds as there are three persons whereupon Zwinglius taxes him for maning three Gods or three Natures in the Divinity He himselfe is angry with the word Trinity calling it a humane invention and a thing that soundeth very coldly He justifies the Arrians and saith they did very well in expelling the word Homousion being a word that his soule hated He affirmed that Christ was from all eternity even according to his humane nature taxed for it by Zwing in these words how can Christ then be said to be borne of a woman He affirmes that as Christ dyed with great pain so he seeems to have sustained pains in Hell after death That the divinity of Christ suffered or else he were none of his Christ That if the humane nature should only suffer for him that Christ were but a Saviour of a vile account and had need himselfe of another Saviour Luther held not onely consubstantiation but also saith Hospinian that the body and bloud of Christ both is and may be found according
be unnaturall Subjects seditious troublesome and unquiet spirits members of Sathan enemies to the King and the Common-wealth of their owne native Country And lastly because your Church of England most followed Calvins doctrine of any of the rest I shall shew you what end he made answerable to his beginning and course of life written by two knowne and approved Protestant Authors viz. God in the rod of his fury visiting Calvin did horribly punish him before the fearfull hour of his unhappy death for he so struck this heretick with his mighty hand that being in despair and calling upon the Devill he gave up his wicked soule swearing cursing and blaspheming dying upon the disease of lyce and wormes increasing in a most loathsome ulcer about his privie parts so as none present could endure the stentch these things are objected unto Calvin in publick writing in which also horrible things are declared concerning his lasciviousnesse his sundry abominable vices and Sodomiticall lusts for which last he was by the Magistrate at Nayon under whom he lived branded on the shoulder with a hot borning iron And this is said of him by Schlusberg She which is likewise confirmed by Jo. Herennius It may be your Majestie may taxt me of bitternesse or for the discovery of nakednesse But I hope you will give me leave to look what staffe I leane upon when I am to looke down upon so great and terrible a precipice as Hell and to consider the rottennesse of the severall rounds of that ladder which is proposed to me for my ascent unto heaven and to forewarne others of the dangers I espie their owne words can be none of my railing nor their owne accusations my errour except it be a fault to take notice of what is published and make use of what I see Ex ore tuo was our Saviours rule and shall be mine There hath not been used one Catholick Author throughout the accusation and I take it to be the providenee of God that they should be thus infatuated as to accuse one another that good men may take heed how they rely upon such mens Judgements in order to their eternall Salvation As to Your Majesties Objection that we of the Church of Rome fell away from our selves and that you did not fall away from us as also to the common saying of all Protestants bidding us to returne to our selves and they will returne to us we accept of their offer we will doe so that is to say we will hold our selves to the same Doctrine which the Church of Rome held before she converted this Nation to Christianity and then they cannot say we fell away from them or from our selves whilst we maintaine the same Doctrine we held before you were of us that is to say whilst we maintain'd the same Doctrine that we maintained during the four first Councels acknowledged by most Protestants and during Saint August time concerning whom Luther himself acknowledged That after the sacred Scriptures there is no Doctor of the Church to be compared thereby excluding himself and all his associates from being preferr'd before him concerning whom Master Field of the Church writes that Saint Aug. was the greatest Father since the Apostles Concerning whom Covel writes that he did shine in learning above all that ever did or will appear Concerning whom Jewell appeals as to a true and Orthodox Doctor Concerning whom Mr. Forrester Non. Tessagraph calls him the Fathers Monarch And Concerning whom Gomer acknowledges his opinion to be most pure Concerning whom Master Whitaker doubts not but that he was a Protestant And lastly concerning whom your royall Father seemed to appeal when he objected unto Card. Peron That the face and exteriour form of the Church was changed since his time and far different to what it was in his dayes wherefore we will take a view of what it was then and see whether we lose or keep our ground and whether it be the same which you acknowledged then to be so firm Our Church believed then a true and reall presence and the orall manducation of the body of Christ in the Sacrament as the prince of the Sacramentarians acknowledged in these words from the time of S. Augustin which was for the space of twelve hundred yeares the opinion of corporall flesh had already got the mastery And in this quality she adored the Eucarist with outward gestures and adoration as the true and proper body of Christ Then the Church believed the body of Christ to be in the Sacrament even besides the time that it was in use And for this cause kept it after Consecration for Domesticall Communions to give to the sick to carry upon the Sea to send into far Provinces Then she believed that Communion under both kinds was not necessary for the sufficiency of participation but that all the body and all the bloud was taken in either kind And for this cause in Domesticall Communions in Communions for children for sick persons by Sea and at the hour of death it was distributed under one kind onely Then the Church believed that the Eucharist was a true full and intire sacrifice not onely Eucharisticall but propitiatory and offered it as well for the living as the dead The faithfull and devout people of the Church then made pilgrimages to the bodies of the Martyrs pray'd to the Martyrs to pray to God for them Celebrated their Feasts reverenced their Reliques in all honourable forms And when they had received help from God by the intercession of the said Martyrs they hung up in the Temples and upon the Altars erected to their memory images of those parts of their bodies that had been healed The Church then held the Apostolicall traditions to be equall to the Apostolicall writings and held for Apostolicall traditions all that the Church of Rome now embraceth under that Title She then offered prayers for the dead both publick and private to the end to procure for them ease and rest And held this custome as a thing necessary for the refreshment of their souls The Church then held the fast of the forty dayes of Lent for a custome not free but necessary and of Apostolicall tradition And out of the time of Pentecost fasted all the Frydayes in the year in memory of the death of Christ except Christmay-Day fell on a Fryday which she then excepted as an Apostolicall tradition The Church then held marriage after the vow of Virginity to be a sin and reputed those who married together after their vowes not onely for adulterers but also for incestuous persons The Church held then mingling of water with wine in the sacrifice of the Eucharist for a thing necessary and of Divine and Apostolicall tradition She held then exorcismes exsufflations and renunciations which are made in Batisme for sacred
authority of the Church as if were it not for the authority of the Church the Scripture were of no force neither could deserve any credit So the Romanists do frequently pervert those words of Austine but Austines meaning was only this that the Churches authority by way of introduction was a means to bring him to beleeve the Gospel by propounding and commending the Gospel unto him as a thing to be beleeved whereas otherwise he should not have given heed to it nor taken notice of it not as if he did finally rest in the authority of the Church and resolve his faith into it No for as I have shewed before he would have the Church it selfe sought in the Scripture and proved by it Had not the woman of Samaria told those among whom she lived of Christ they had not come to the knowledge of him much lesse to beleeve in him yet having heard Christ himselfe they did not rest in the testimony of the woman but said unto her Now we beleeve not because of thy saying for we have heard him our selves and know that this is indeed the Christ and the Saviour of the world Joh. 4. 42. So should not the Church hold out unto us the Scriptures we should not know much lesse beleeve them but at length God by his Spirit opening our understandings that we may understand the Scriptures Luke 24. 45. we come to be convinced by the Scriptures themselves that they are the Oracles of God and of divine authority Melchior Canus a learned Writer of the Church of Rome holds that the formall reason of our faith is not the authority of the Church that is that the last resolution of our faith is not into the Churches testimony And he saith that he could not dissemble their errour who hold that our faith is to be reduced thither as to the utmost cause of beleeving For the confuting of this errour he saith belongs that Ioh. 4. Now we beleeve not because of thy saying for we our selves have heard him and know c. The same authour averres that the authority of the Church is not a reason by it selfe moving to beleeve but only a cause or meanes without which we should not beleeve viz. Because as he addes the Church doth propound unto us that the Scripture is the word of God and except the Church did so propound it we should never ordinarily come to beleeve it yet we doe not therefore beleeve the Scripture to be Gods word because the Church doth say it but because God doth reveal it If the Church saith he doth make way for us to know such sacred books we must not therefore rest there but we must goe further and must relye on Gods solid truth And then he brings in that very speech of Austine and shewes what he meant by it Hereby is understood saith he what Austine meant when he said I should not beleeve the Gospell except the authority of the Church did move me And again By the Catholikes I had beleeved the Gospell For Austine had to doe with the Manichees who without dispute would have a certain Gospell of theirs beleeved and so would establish the faith of the Manichees Austine therefore askes them what they would doe if they did light upon a man who did not beleeve so much as the Gospell what kind of perswasion they would use to bring him to their opinion He affirmes that himselfe could not be otherwise brought to embrace the Gospell but that the authority of the Church did overcome him He doth not therefore teach that the faith of the Gospell is grounded upon the Churches authority but only that there is no certain way whereby either infidels or novices in the faith may have entrance to the holy books but one and the same consent of the Catholike Church This he himselfe hath sufficiently explicated in the fourth Chapter of that Epistle and in his book to Honoratus concerning the benefit of beleeving I have thus largely cited the words of this learned Romanist because no Protestant can speak more clearly and more fully to the purpose That which the Marquesse after addeth is nothing against us viz. That there was a Church before there was any Scripture that though the Scripture be a light yet we have need of some to guide us though it be the food of our soules yet there must be some to administer it unto us though it be an antidote against the infection of the devill yet it is not for every one to be a compounder of the ingredients that though it be the onely sword and buckler to defend the Church from her Ghostly enemies yet this doth not exclude the noble army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledg Christ All this I say is nothing at all against us who do so assert the authority of the Scripture as that we doe not evacuate the Churches ministery Timothy must preach but it is the word viz. of God contained in the Scriptures which he must preach 2 Tim. 4. 2. If any man speak for the instructing of others he must speak as the Oracles of God 1 Pet. 4. 11. He must confirm that which he doth speak by the Scriptures And so on the other side they that hear must take heed how and what they hear Luke 8. 18. Mark 4. 24. They must not beleeve every Spirit but must try the Spirits whether they be of God 1 John 4. 1. They must to the Law and to the Testimony for that if any speak not according to this word it is because they have no light in them Isai 8. 20. They must search the Scriptures diligently to see whether the things delivered unto them be so or no. Acts 17. 11. OF THE CHVRCH of ENGLAND THE SECOND PART OF THE Rejoynder to the Marquess of WORCESTER'S Reply MAJESTIE' 's Answer to the said Marquesse's Plea for the ROMISH RELIGION THE Marquesse saith that he will now consider the Opinions of Protestants apart from them of the Church of Rome and begin with the Church of England The Religion of this Church he saith as it is in opposition to theirs consists wholly in denying for that what she affirms they affirm the same as the Real presence the Infallibility Visibility Universality and Unity of the Church Confession and Remission of sinnes Free-will Possibility of keeping the Commandments c. And you may as well saith he deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference as that which you have already denied for which we have plain Scripture c. But 1. it is not altogether so that what the Church of England doth affirm the same they of the Church of Rome do affirm also For the Church of England Art 9. doth affirm alleadging the authority of the Apostle for proof thereof that Concupiscence hath of it self the nature of sinne even in the regenerate which the Romanists deny the Councel of Trent accurseth