1. COR. 8. 2. If any man thinke that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowe ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Aunswere to the Admonition against the Replie of T. C. BY IOHN VVHITGIFT Doctor of Diuinitie In the beginning are added these 4. Tables 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Replie 2 Of Falsifications and Untruthes 3 Of matters handled at large 4 A table generall If any man be contentious we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. 16. †Printed at London by Henry Binneman for Humfrey Toye Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let vs not be desirous of vaineglorie prouoking one another enuying one another ¶ To the godlie Reader IT VVERE BVT A NEEDLESSE labour to make any particular recitall of those pointes of doctrine vvhich this Church of Englande at this day doth holde and maintayne for they be at large set out in sundrie english bookes and especially in the Apologie of the Church of Englande and the Defense of the same summarily also collected together in the boke of Articles agreed vpon in the Conuocation at London Anno 1562. c. this I dare boldely affirme that all pointes of Religion necessarie to saluation and touching eyther the mysterie of our redemption in Chryst or the right vse of the Sacramentes and true manner of vvorshipping God are as purely and perfectely taught and by publike authoritie established in this Church of England at this day as euer they vvere in any church sithence the Apostles time or novv be in any reformed Church in the vvorld the vvhich to be true those that be learned euen among the myslikers of this present state can not nor vvill not denie Likevvise that all Heresies all corrupt doctrines all superstitious and papisticall opinions haue bene and be by the Prince and the Realme banished by the learned Byshops and Preachers in vvorde and in vvriting confuted vvho is so blinded vvith malice that he cannot see or so frovvard and vvilfull that he vvil not confesse VVhat shall vvethen think of those men that are so farre from acknovvledging this singular and vnspeakeable benefite proceeding from the mere mercie of God so farre from being thankfull for the same from desiring the continuance of it vvith heartie prayers that by all meanes possible they seek rather to obscure it and to deface it bicause in certaine accidentall poynts they haue not their fantasies and proper deuises If this be not to set themselues agaynst God and to trouble the peace of the Church for externall things vvhich is schismaticall let the quiet and godlie Christian iudge Hovve much better had it bene for them to haue proceeded in teaching necessarie pointes of doctrine and exhorting to obedience to concorde to godlie lyfe and conuersation than thus vvith no small reioycing of the vvicked great offence of the vveak Gospellers maruellous grief of the Queenes maiestie and other that haue the care of gouernment frovvardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church trouble the happie peace of the cōmon vveale and hazard the vvhole state of Religion they shall one day if not to late vvell vnderstand Furthermore it behoueth all godlie mindes that vvill not be caried avvay vvith rash and ouerhastie iudgemēt in this cōtrouersie to cōsider not only that that I haue before spoken of the truth of doctrine publikely receyued and cōfirmed but also circumspectly to vveigh the circumstances of time place person and the vvhole state of things novve in this Church and Realme of Englande The regarde vvherof in mine opinion must needes cause in all discrete heades a staye of iudgement in comparison that the things themselues barely considered vvoulde do The state of this Church of Englande at this day God be thanked is not Heathenish Turkish or Papisticall in vvhich conditiō many things might be done that othervvise are not to be attempted but it is the state of a church reformed and by authoritie and consent settled not only in truth of doctrine as before is noted but also in order of thinges externall touching the gouernment of the Church and administration of the Sacramentes VVherefore the controuersie is not vvhether many of the thinges mentioned by the platformers vvere fitlie vsed in the Apostles time or may novv be vvell vsed in some places yea or be cōueniently vsed in sundrye reformed Churches at this day For none of these braunches are denyed neither do vve take vpon vs as vve are sclaundered either to blame or to condemne other Churches for such orders as they haue receiued most fit for their estats But this is the vvhole state of our controuersie vvhen vve of this Church in these perillous dayes do see that vve haue a greate number of hollovve hartes vvithin this Realme that daylie gape for alteratiō of Religiō and many mightie great enimies abroade busilie deuising and vvorking to bring the same to passe and to ouerthrovve the state both of religion and of the Realme vvhether seing vve haue a setled order in doctrine and gouernment receiued and confirmed by lavve it may stand vvith godlie and Christian vvisdome vvith disobedience to the Prince and lavve and vvith the vnquietnes of the Church and offence of many consciences to attempt so greate alteratiō as this platforme must needes bring and that for matters externall onlye and vvith such egernesse and bitternesse that they deface and discredite the vvhole state of this Church vvith al the Preachers and Ecclesiasticall gouernours of the same as remayning in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities and thereby fill the mouthes of the aduersaries vvith greater matter of obloquie to deface the gospell than euer of them selues they had bene able to deuise Surely I could neuer reade but that they that should so do vvere rather to be estemed troublesome and schismaticall defacers than zealous and godly reformers I knovve that no Church can be so perfect in all points of externall gouerment and ceremonies but that such as be disposed maye picke some occasion of quarrelling thereat thoughe vniustlie therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit nor to redie to follovve contentious captaines For S. Paule sayeth Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos c. If any be contentious among you we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God c. Againe vvhen any thing is amisse it must be considered vvhether the faultes be in the thinges themselues or in the persons for vve may not vvith partiall and corrupt iudgement impute the faultes of the persons to the things vvhether they be offices or ceremonies for then should vve continuallie bee altering the state and neuer stand stedfast in any kynde of gouernment therefore in such cases vve must seke to reforme the abuses in men vve must not pull avvaye the states and offices or the thinges themselues bicause they be abused by some men But to let this passe and come to the purpose this Replie of T. C. vvhich is of some counted
it abroade gather disciples and make a new secte in shorte time we shal haue so many sectes and factions that Christe which scarce with greate payne and labor is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many partes VVherefore as you haue singularelie and vvith greate vvisdome and labour alreadie restored the true religion of Christe and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine So likewise as the same Zuinglius sayeth in those perillous times wherein Satan seketh so busilie to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo entrap vs so that with newe cōtentions about external thinges he goeth about to trouble those whome the sworde of persecution eyther moued not or terrified not look well about you note the craftes and subtilties of them take hede of the pestilent windes of diuers doctrine let none trouble the gospell amongst you or set you at strife and variaunce And remember that as the streame that commeth dovvne from the highe mountaines being caused by much rayne and snovve taking eueriething that it meteth vvith before it the further it goeth the greater strengthe and the more aboundance of vvater it gathereth and first remoueth out of their places small stones after vvith greater violence casteth dovvne strong bridges yea huge and mightie rockes and encreaseth to that strength that nothing be it of neuer so greate force can resist or vvithstand it and in the end leueth nothing else behinde it quà m inutilem luctum quaerelas inanes miseram vastatorum agrorum segetum formam but vnprofitable mourning vaine complaintes and a miserable forme of the spoiled fieldes euen so contentionum pestis impia haeresis eodem modo progrediens non quicquam aliud quà m turpem calamito sam rerum faciem in florentissimo antè ecclesiae agro post se relinquit The plague of contention and wicked heresie proceding in like manner leaueth nothing after it but a miserable and pitifull face and shew of thinges in that place which was before the flourishing fielde of the church Consider vvhat the vviseman sayeth Prouerb 17. the beginning of stryfe is as one that openeth the waters It had bene vvell if the beginning had bene vvithstanded but seing that vvas neglected and rather by some furthered than stopped Yet novv it is time to make vp the breache This is sufficiēt to you vvhose vvisdome and carefulnesse is vvell knovvne to all those that be not vvith sinister affection blinded Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall state and desirous to kepe the peace of the Churche I haue onlie to admonishe that they be not discouraged from doing their duties bicause of the slaunderous reportes and vnchristian tauntes and contumelies that our vnquiet brethren lade them vvith knovving that it hath bene the vsuall practise of all sectaries and especiallie of Anabaptistes vvho counte them all as vvicked and vngodlie as vvorldlinges and men pleasers as idle and slouthfull that conspire not vvith them in their confused platforme I maye vse the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius vsed in the like time Nec quicquam vos moueant atroces illaecalumniae c. Let not those bitter reproches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast and cauilling speaches wherewith the Anabaptistes and others studious of contention and discorde oppresse you moue you any thing at all bicause you rather followe Christ than them for although they call you wicked and infidels yet your selues best know what your cōfidence in God is and what is your meaning and purpose so that so often as they accuse you of impietie or of infidelitie so ofte do they minister manifest proofes vnto you that their spirite procedeth from the father of lyes And marueile not at those bitter contentions you knovve it to be true that the same Zuinglius also sayeth Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium c. This is the subtil e of our common enimie this is his manner herevnto doth he bend him selfe whollie and sleepeth not that as sone as the lord hath reuealed the light of his worde he also by and by soweth darnell this do almost all the epistles of S. Paule teach vs wherein it is manifestlie declared that there hath bene alwayes some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quà m cultores rather feyners of holynes than embracers of it who for certaine externall and vnprofitable thinges doubt not to laye as it were greuous stumbling blockes to the doctrine of the gospell Onlie let vs be diligent in our vocation earnest against all kinde of enimies feruent in prayers for the preseruation of the Queenes maiestie and for the peace of the Church vvith the good successe of the Gospell and vigilant that errors be not published vvithout controlement and God vvill ere it be long if our sinnes deserue not the contrarie giue peace to this Church as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner To conclude I do charge all men before God and his Angells as they vvil ansvvere at the daye of iudgement that vnder the pretence of zeale they seeke not the spoyle of the Church vnder the colour of perfection they vvorke not confusion vnder the cloake of simplicitie they couer not pride ambition vayneglorie arrogancie vnder the outvvarde shevve of godlinesse they nourish not contempt of magistrates popularitie Anabaptistrie and sundrie others pernicious and pestilent errors The Lord make vs thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodnesse bestovved vpon vs in thus long continuing his gospell preseruing our most gracious and louing Queene and ouerthrovving all the conspiracies and deuises that the diuell hath hetherto inuented to molest this state and Church ¶ A note of such dangerous pointes of doctrine as are auouched by T. C. in his Replie and quoted as they are to be founde in this Booke HE sayth that Certeine of the things which we stande vpon are suche as if euery heare of out heade were a life we ought to aforde them for the defense of them whereby he woulde insinuate that this Church of England doth mainteine some dānable doctrine pag. 44. 2 He sayth that if the Church be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted whiche smelleth of an Anabaptisticall fansie pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth that many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistrie pag. 77. 4 He holdeth that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to saluation and yet is it a doctrine cleane contrarie to frée iustification by Christe pag. 82. 5 He saythe that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation which is a notorious error pag. 103. 6 He vtterly denyeth that any magistrate can faue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne I dolaters
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
with you in like maner say where doth any man charge them with so saying yet doth the same necessarily follow vpō their reason They say not the gouernment of a fewe of the best but of a companie which signifieth many and why should not this argument be good if the gouernment of a fewe godly men be better than the gouernment of one bicause one is easier ouerthrowne by bribing than moe then is also the gouernment of many godly men better than the gouernment of a few bicause a few may sooner be corrupted than many and consequently by the same reason the moe that gouerne the better This reason you haue glaunced by and not touched and yet it enforceth a manyfest absurditie agaynst the Authors of the Admonition For it is too absurde to saye that a Popular estate is the best state neyther will any affirme it but those which woulde be Popular You are neuer able to shew eyther by Diuinitie or Philosophie that there are moe There are no more lawfull kinds of gouernmēt than three lawfull kindes of gouernment than thrée that is Democraticall Aristocratical and Monarchicall and of these bothe the Scripture and Philosophie alloweth of the Monarchie as simply the best The gouernment of this kingdome is a right and true Monarchie Neither do you The gouernment of thys realme a true Monarchie know what a Monarchie is when you call it a mixt estate for that is called a Monarchie where the chiefe care and gouernment of the common wealth is committed to one as it is in this kingdome in euery respect Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1. It is sufficient nowe to admonish you that although it be graunted that the gouernment of 〈◊〉 be the best in the common wealth yet it can not be in the Church for the Prince may wel be Monarche immediatly betweene God and the common wealth but no man can be Monarch betweene God and his Church but Christ which is the onely head thereof Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole Church and ouer euery particular Churche and ouer euery singular member in the Church is in Christ alone Io. Whitgifte If you meane of the vniversall Churche onely Christ is the head neyther hath he Christ the only head of hys vniuersall church any Uicegerent to supply that vniuersall care ouer the whole Churche But if you speake of particular Churches as the Churche of Englande the Churche of Denmarke c. then as the Prince is chiefe gouernour and head of the common wealthe The Prince head of a particular church vnder God so is he of the Churche likewise For it is certayne that the christian Magistrate vnder Christ hath as great authoritie as the Magistrate had vnder y e law But then the ciuill Magistrates had chiefe authoritie bothe in matters of the common wealth and of the Churche also as héereafter it shall more playnely appeare therefore the Magistrate ought to haue the same nowe in like maner T. C. doth but T. C. glaunceth at the magistrate glaunce at the Magistrate bicause he dare not speake playnly but suche licentious spéeches thoughe voyde of all reason and grounde may peraduenture sinke déeper into the heart of the subiects especially of the Papist who hathe already conceyued the same opinion of the ciuill Magistrate than will be rooted out in shorte time so carefull are these men in procuring to the Prince due obedience and so faythfull are they in maynteyning hir authoritie according to their othe and duetie Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 2. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. Both the names offices of Seniors were extinguished before Ambrose tyme as he himselfe dothe testifie writing vpon the fifth of the fyrst to Timothie In deede as Ambrose sayth writing vpon the fyfth of the fyrst to Timothie The Synagogue and after the Church had Seniors vvithout vvhose counsell nothing vvas done in the Churche but that was before hys time and before there was any christian Magistrates or any Churche established T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. Last of al (*) Vntrue for it is not alleaged for that 〈◊〉 to proue that there ought to be no Seniors in the church vnder a christian Prince he citeth Ambrose authoritie both in the. 114. and. 132. pages which sayth that the Synagogue or Church of the Iewes and after that the Church of the Christians had Seniors without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church whervpon he concludeth that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time therefore they were not vnder a christian Prince Io. Whitgifte This is most vntrue I alleage not Ambrose in eyther of those places to proue that Seniors ought not to be vnder a christian Prince as the Reader may vnderstande euidently by my words Only I confesse that there was Seniors and I alleage Ambrose partly for that purpose partly to shewe that both their names and offices were extinguished before his time no man liuing can gather any other sense out of my words Wherfore that conclusion vpon Ambrose wordes is yours it is not myne and I am sory that malice hath throwne you so déepe into y e pit of vntruth that you can not be gotten out of it No cloake or shadow can couer this deformitie of yours Chap. 2. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor hathe in one sentence proclaymed bothe his great ignorance in the whole storie of the Church and withall cyther a maruelous abusion and 〈◊〉 him selfe to be mislead by some vnaduised prompter or subtile foxe that thought to deceyue him or else a notable cuill conscience whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe His ignorance dothe appeare partly in that he sayththat bicause there were no Seniors in Ambrose Church and in those Churches about him therefore there was none at all but most manifestly in that he sayth for so muche as there were no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christian Prince as though there were not many yeres before Ambrose time christian Emperours when as betweene the time of S. Ambrose beeing Bishop the time of Philip the sonne of Gordias the first christian Emperour there is more than 150. yeres and betwene the time of Constantine the Emperour and the time of Ambrose beeing Bishop there be aboue 80. yeres And if M. Doctor had euer read the Ecclesiasticall stories he mought haue (*) An vntruthe else name your stories found easily the Eldership moste florishing in Constantines time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest Io. Whitgifte Except it were to set fóorth your owne knowledge to leaue a publike testimonie of your great humilitie and modestie you would not so immodestly accuse M. Doctor of ignorance though you had cōuinced him of it as you neyther haue done nor are able to do in that that he professeth Likewise except your selfe vsed prompters patched your
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
of Sarisburie his defense of the Apologie agaynst Maister Harding my L. of Winchesters answere to Master Fecknam Master Nowels bookes agaynst Dorman in all which this matter is very learnedly and painefully handled Admonition Is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for England is discipline meete for Scotlande and is it vnprofitable for this Realme Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes to encourage you to goe forwarde to a thorow and a speedie reformation You may not do as heretofore you haue done patche and peece nay rather goe backwarde and neuer labour to (t) Heb. 6. 1. contende to perfection But altogither remoue whole Antichrist bothe head body braunche and perfectly plant that puritie of the worde that simplicitie of the sacraments and that seueritie of discipl ne which Christ hath commaunded and commended to his church Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Hathe there beene no reformation in this Church of Englande sithence Unthankfulnesse of the Ad monitors the Queenes Maiesties reygne What say you to the abolishing of the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome what say you to the banishing of the Masse Nay what say you to the puritie of doctrine in all poynts perteyning to saluation Is this no reformation with you O intollerable vnthankfulnesse T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2. The other poynt is in the. 138. page where he most vntruly and standerously chargeth the Authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcries as though they should denie that there had beene any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queenes Maiestie began to reigne manifestly contrarie not only to their meaning but also to their very words which appeareth in that they moue to a through reformation and to contende or to labour to perfection denying onely that the reformation which hath beene made in hir Maiesties dayes is through and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God that euery one of vs is moste deepely bounde to hir Maiestie whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to deliuer his churche heere out of the spirituall Egypt of Poperie and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of strangers whervnto it was so neere This I saye we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly giue most humble thanks to God therfore And by this humble sute and earnest desire which we haue for further reformation we are so farre from vnthankfulnesse vnto hir Maiestie that wee thereby desire the heape of hir felicitie and the establishment of hir Royall throne amongst vs whyche then shall be moste sure and vnremoued when our Sauiour Christ sytteth wholly and fully not onely in his chayre to teache but also in his throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by his spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of his churche by those lawes of discipline which he hath prescribed Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition page 137. be these Is a reformation good for Fraimce The Admonitors and the Replyer mislike our reformation almost wholly c. and can it be euill for Englande is discipline meete for Scotlande c. and is it vnprofitable for this Realme To this I answering say hathe there beene no reformation in the Church of Englande since the Queenes Maiesties reigne c. what wonderfull outeryes these be or howe vntrue slaunders let the discrete Reader iudge Doth not he that sayth is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for Englande insinuate that there is no reformation in Englande In the same place they say that hitherto we haue but patched and peeced my rather gone backwarde Moreouer to what ende dothe their booke tende but to the defacing of this reformation What is it that eyther they or you commende or lyke in this Churche nay what is it that you mislike not For to the sinceritie of doctrine as it appeareth you haue little regarde all things else you vtterly cast downe neyther the authoritie of the Prince the ministerie the gouernment of the Churche the administration of the Sacraments the ceremonies the discipline the forme or matter of publike prayers nor The good they acknowledge of the Queene dissembled almoste any thing else can please you and howsoeuer nowe in wordes you confesse that you are most deepely bounde vnto hir Maiestie c. yet bothe in tongue and in deede dyners of you declare that your meaning is nothing lesse For why doe you then so vnorderly so vndoubtedly so spitefully publikely and priuately in worde and in wryting deface hir procéedings slaunder hir gouernment depraue the reformation that she hathe made with sectes and schismes deuide the Realme set dissention among the people make the Papists more stubborne driue those backe that were welnighe persuaded thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestantes encourage hir aduersaries separate hir faythfull subiectes one from another and greatly disquiet hir selfe But I will not prosecute this matter onely I desire of God most hartily that it would please him to worke that minde and affection in you in deede that becommeth dutifull subiects and quiet members of the Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Englande is not bounde to the example eyther of Fraunce or Englande is not bounde to other Churches for examples Scotlande I woulde they bothe were if it pleased God touching Religion in that state and condition that Englande is I woulde Antichriste were as farre from them remoued The Lorde make vs thankfull and continue this reformation we haue and graunt peace to his Church and eyther couuert the hearts of those that be enimies vnto it or remoue them T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our selues as thoughe we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce and Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bin vnto them in example and haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutual helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christe stirred vp his Apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrunne of others that come after And wheras he would (*) A slanderous and malicious vntruthe priuily pinche at the reformation there for so muche as the Lorde hathe Mat. 20. humbled the one and exerciseth the other by ciuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleape in our securitie put vs in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance and that if he haue punished that people of his which haue suffered so muche for the profession of the gospell and which went with so
to the practise of the Church and truth and notorious vntruthes affirmed by him of the Answere to the Admonition with sundrie other grosse ouersights because I haue noted them in the margent and plainly detected them in my Defense to this Replier and are for the most part noted also in the Generall Table vnder these 3. titles Falsifications of the Replier T. C. charged with vntruth T. C. chargeth the Answere falsely Men may erre and be deceiued but either to speake nothing truly or often to fault in vntrue dealing cannot be a token of the spirite of truth the which spirite of truth God for his Christes sake graunt vnto all those that haue a heartie desire to know the truth FINIS A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL titles and matters handeled at large in this Booke AN answere to the Epistle Dedicated by T. C. too the Church of Englād c. pag. 1 An Epistle of the Author too the Church of England 17 An exhortation to the Ciuil ecclesiasticall Magistrates 31 An aunswere to the Preface of the Admonition 57 Tractatus 1. VVhether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto mi nisters 61 The true interpretation of the 20 of Mathew c. Reges gentium c. Cap. 1. 61 The exposition of the place Math. 23. Cap. 2. 71 Tract 2. Of the authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76 Som things may be tollerated in the Church touching order ceremonies discipline kind of gouern ment not expressed in the woord of God Chap. 1. 76 The opinion of the auncient fathers and councelles of thinges indifferent Chap. 2 95 The opinion of Saint Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3 99 The opinion of M. Caluine of things indifferent Chap. 4. 109 The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5 113 The expositiō of the places of Deut. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Chap. 6. 116 The opinion of other late writers of thinges indifferent Chap. 7. 126 Tract 3. Of the election of Ministers 132 Of the triall of Ministers both in lear ning and conuersation Chap. 1. pag. 132 VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers maye afterwardes be Ministers of the Gospell Chap. 2. 143 Of Ministers learning Catechismes Chap ▪ 3. 152 Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people Chap. 4. 154 An examinatiō of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie c. of elections by the people Chap. 5. 170 The diuersitie betwixt the Apostles times oures requireth a diuers kind of gouernement and of ordering of Ministers Chap. 6. 174 That Bishops haue authoritie to admit and ordeine Ministers Chap. 7. 194 It is not necessary that the people should haue interest in the election of Ministers but the contrary is conuenient Chap. 8. 211 Tract 4. Of Ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordering Ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets 216 Of Ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1 216 Of ceremonies vsed in ordeining Mi nisters Chap. 2. 225 Of Apostles Euangelists and Prophets Chap. 3. 228 Tract 5. Of Residence of the pastor Chap. 1. 235 Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. 246 Tract 6. Of Ministers that cānot preach and of licences to preach 251 Some may be Ministers that cannot preach Chap. 1. 251 Of licences to preach Chap. 2 254 Tract 7. Of apparell of Ministers 256 The causes vvhy they refuse the Apparell examined Chap. 1. 256 That Ministers vvere knovvne in times past by distinct apparell Chap. 2. 261 That the Magistrate may appoynt a distinct apparell for Ministers Chap. 3. 264 The distinction of apparell vvas appointed before the Popes tiranny Chap. 4. 268 That the apparel now vsed is not Po pishe or Antichristian And that things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians Chap. 5. 271 Diuers thinges concerning apparell in other places of the Aunsvvere chap. 6. 282 The faultes vvherevvith the Admonitors charge the apparell aunswered Chap. 7 283 Tract 8. Of Archbishops Metropolitās Bishops Archdeacons c. pag. 297 The reasons of T. C. ansvvered wher by he goeth about to take awaye the superfluous loppe as hee termeth it of the offices chap. 1. 297 That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian chap. 2. 318 The offices of Archbishops c. are not straung or vnheard of in Chri stes church and of superioritie among the Clergie chap. 3. 353 The defense of the ansvvere of maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops c. against the vnreuerend Reply of T. C. chap. 4 422 The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiue and the estate of the old Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. 435 Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our clergie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answer chap. 6. 453 A briefe collection of such authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops Bishops Chap 7. 470 A briefe comparison of the Bishops of our time and the Bishoppes of the primitiue Church Chap. 8. pag. 47 Tract 9. Of the communiō booke 474. The generall faultes examined wher vvith the publike seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. 474 An examination of the particular faultes either in matter or forme whervvith the Booke of commō praier is charged Chap. 2. 487 Of Baptisme by women vvherwith the communion Booke is falsly charged Chap. 3. 503 Of ministring the sacraments in priuate places Chap. 4. 511 The sacraments ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. 515 Of priuate communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the Booke of common prayer Chap. 6. 525. Of Churching of women 534 Tract 10. Of holydayes 538 Of holidayes in generall and that they maye bee appointed by the Church and of the vse of them Chap. 1. 538 Of Saints dayes Chap. 2. 543 Tract 11. VVhat kind of preachinge is most effectuall 555 Tract 12. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments 562. Tract 13. Of reading of the Scriptures 568. A comparison betvveene reading of Scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. page 568 That reading is preaching chap. 2. pag. 574 The profite of reading Scriptures in the Church chap. 3. 578 Tract 14. Of ministring and preachinge by Deacons 582 Tract 15. Of matters touching the communion 588 Of orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion chap. 1. 588 Of shutting men from the communion and compelling to communicate chap. 2. 603 Of playn and simple ministring and receyuing of the communion Chap. 3. 605 Tract 16. Of matters touching baptisme pag. 607 Of interrogatories ministred to infantes Chap. 1. 607 Of Godfathers and their promise Chap. 2 612 Of fontes and crossing in baptisme Chap. 3. pag. 614 Of the parties that are to bee baptised Chap. 4 619 Tract 17. Of the Seigniorie or gouernement by Seniors 626 VVhether there were such as the Ad monition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation chap. 1. 626 VVhether the gouernement by
Seniors ought to be perpetual cha 2 pag. 623 The inconuenience of the Seigniory in the time of Christian Princes especiallye in the state of this church Chap. 3. 656 That there is no one certain kind of gouernment in the church which must of necessitie bee perpetually obserued chap. 4. 678 Tract 18. Of certain matters concerning discipline in the church 660 Of Excommunication and in vvhoÌ„ the execution thereof dothe consist chap. 1. 660 Of Bishops courtes and their Officers chap. 2. 679 Tract 19. Of Deacons and widowes 686 Of the Office of DeaoÌ„cs chap. 1. 686. Of the office of widowes and their continuance chap 2. 693 Tract 20. Of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters 694 Tract 21. Of subscribing to the communion Booke 709 Certaine generall faultes whervvith the Booke is charged by the Admonitors chap. 1. 〈◊〉 Of reading Homilies A 〈◊〉 chap 2. 〈◊〉 Of the name priest giuen to the mi nisters of the Gospel chap. 3 〈◊〉 Matters concerning the solemniration of Mariage chap. 4. 72 Of the Confirmation of Children Chap. 5. 5 Of burials and matters therunto belonging Chap. 6 727 Other particular faultes for vvhiche they refuse too subscribe too the Booke Chap. 7 7 7 Tract 22. Of Cathedrall Churches 743 Tract 23. Of ciuill offices in ecclesiastical persons 749 A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition against suche ciuill officers as are exercised by ecclesiasticall persons in this realme chap 1. 749 The reasons vvhich T. C. vseth against ciuil offices in ecclesiastical persons examined chap. 2. 75 The reasons vsed in the aunswer iustified 763 Of additions detractions alterations in both the partes of the Admonition 780 Articles collected out of the for mer Admonition vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsifiedpag 795 A view of the second Admonition 799 Answere to certayne paÌ„phlets spread abroad of late 806 An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replye touchinge matters in controuersie In the end The end of the principall Titles A GENERALL TABLE OF THOSE things which are most worthie the noting in this booke wherein this marke c signifieth that that which is noted is handled more largely and continueth in moe pages together than are quoted A ABsurdities 138. 195. 566. 684. An absurde collection 383. Deliuerance from aduersitie of two sortes 493. ¶ Aerius heresie in denying the difference betwixte a Bishop and a Priest 403. ¶ Adde to the word what it is 123. ¶ Admonition contrary to T. C. 38. AdmonitioÌ„ would haue none compelled to communicate 605. Contrariety in the Admonitors 802 Admonitors fly to allegories 599. Admonitors agree not in their gouernment 3. Admonitors iustly accused of contention 34. Admonition disorderly published pag. 34. Admonitors disorderly preachyng pag. 34. Admonitors deny the Gospell to be truly preached in England 38. Both the Admonitions slauÌ„der this Church 40. 485. 801. Admonitors compared to Donatistes 5 Admonitorsioyne with papists in de facing this Churche of Englande pag. 51. c. Admonitors gratifie the Papistes pag. 55. 603. 712 The ground of the Admonition 76 ¶ Aduersaries to the Churche of 4. sortes 7 5. ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 71. ¶ Alteration in this tyme daungerous 678. ¶ Alexander a good Byshop 594. ¶ Ambition 481. Ambitious frowardnesse 481. Ambition in the Admonitors 560. ¶ Ambrose alloweth the Arch byshop 335. Ambrose a Metropolitane 336. 471. Ambrose his house of salutations pag. 449 Ambrose excoÌ„municated alone 670 Ambrose refused to come at the Em perours commaundemente and why 700. ¶ Amphilochius a Metropolitane pag. 341. 471 ¶ Anabaptisme a crafty heresie 620. A note of Anabaptisme practised by the Replier 696. An vsuall obiection of Anabaptistes pag. 239. Anabaptistes pretende a calling by by the people 191 192. Anabaptistes inueigh more bitterly against Ministers than against papistes 16. Properties of Anabaptistes 33. c. A braunch of Anabaptisme 177. A dore opened to Anabaptisme 313 VVhy the Anabaptists alwayes pretend scripture 98. The doctrine of the Replier tendeth to plaine Anabaptisme 566. 567. 622. 626. ¶ Anacletus 327. ¶ Anicetus 328. ¶ Andronicê° and Iunia Apostles 276 ¶ An answere vnaduised 347. ¶ Antichrist began in the Apostles time 349. Antichrist worketh now by contention 349. The tayle of Antichriste what it is pag. 793. VVhat is a note of Antichrist 276. ¶ Antiquitie maye be proued by the writings of Infidels 324. ¶ Apparell for Ministers 256. c. Apparell not refused bicause the Papistes vse it 257. Apparel of ministers distinct 261 c The magistrate may appoint apparell for ministers 264. c. Distinction of apparell before the Popes tyranny 268. c. Iohns apparell 270. Apparell now vsed not Antichristian 271. c. VVhite apparell vsed in the Ministration 281. 282. Howe apparell serueth to edification 286. c. The forme of apparell maye put a man in mynde of his dutie 291. Mourning apparell 730. c. ¶ Appeale grauÌ„ted from the Magistrate to Bishops 773. ¶ Apostolical function extraordinarie 217. VVhat part of the Apostolicall function doth remaine 218. 229. 424 One Apostle dyd appoint ministers pag. 327. The Apostles began the lordes Supper with the lords prayer 588. 602 ¶ Apollinaris 669. ¶ Apocryphà 715. c. Apocrypha read in times past 721. Apocrypha 793. ¶ Archbishops Primate Metropolitanes 297. c. 470. c Christ called Archbishop 300. The name of Archbishop maye be transferred to other than Christ pag. 300. Archbishop no new ministery 303. 375. The office of Archbishop without the name 340. c. Great difference betwixt an Archebishop and the Pope 308. 382. The Archbishops office conteyned in the Scripture 313. 427 The Archbishops office in the Apostels 372 Archbishop and Metropolitane not antichristian names 318. c. Antiquitie of Archbishops their office 318. 354 Archbishops in England Anno. Domini 180. 324. 470 DiffereÌ„ce betwixt Archbishop and Byshop 325. The Archbishops office in S. Iohn pag. 329. Archbishops and Metropolitanes before the Nicene Councell 331. 354. Authoritie of the Metropoltane pag. 333. The name and office of Archbishop and Metropolitane 338. Primate allowed in the Councell of Carthage 343. The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church 374. The principal office of Archbishops pag. 355. How far our Archbishops deale in controuersies 362. The reasons serue not for the Pope that serue for the Archbyshoppe pag. 380. 381. c. Metropolitanes in Ieromes time 386 The office of Metropolitane fixed to a place 393. The vse of a Patriarch rare in what sense 419. The office of Patriarches in the Primitiue Church 420. The authorite of our Archbishopps and Bishops lesse than in tymes past 440 Authoritie of Archbyshop and Byshop came not froÌ„ the Pope 360 The circuite of the Archbishop of Alexandria 471 An Archbishop may gouerne one prouince but not the Pope the whole world 464. c. Reasons for the Archbishop are solutions against the Pope 467 Authorities vsed
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
to dreame of such a Church as Plato did of a Common wealth Aristotle of felicitie and the Stoicks of their iuste man muche lesie to make contention in the Church or deuide themselues from the same if al things go not according to their fantasie for then shal they neuer be quiet with any Churche no not long with that Church which they themselues do presently best lyke of Surely if this rule be certaine that the Common wealth shal not flourish The rule of T. C. returned against himselfe vntil the Church be reformed then this may be a good token vnto vs that this Churche of Englande is reformed bicause the Common wealth doth flourish Neither doe I speake this to flatter the Magistrates and to sewe quisshions vnder their elbows as it pleaseth some to reporte but I speake it before God I speake it as I thinke and the rather I vtter it to deliuer both the state of the Churche and also of the common wealth of Englande from the vnthankfull vnnaturall and slanderous tongues of such as séeke to deface and depraue them both I will not defend the vice the negligence the securitie of any man I shall be as bolde and as readie to tel euen the best thereof in time and place as occasion is ministred and my duetie shall require as any of those shall be which woulde séeme to be farthest from all kinde of flatterie T. C. And it is also certaine that as the Church shal euery daye more and more decay vntill it be made euen with the grounde onlesse the walles be buylded the ruines repaired S the weight of it if it fal will either quite pull downe the Common wealth or leaue it such as none whiche feare God will take any pleasure in it For seeing Salomon sayeth that by wisedome whiche is the worde of God Kings doe gouerne and Princes doe beare rule it can not be but as that wisedome is eyther contemned or neglected or otherwyse abridged of hir free and full course so Princes and Magistrates and consequently their common wealthes eyther goe to wrack or decay or at the least want so muche of the flourishing estate as there wanteth of that word of God which he hath appoynted to be their stay And howsoeuer before the comming of our Sauioure Christ amongst the Athenians Lacedemonians and Romanes and since his comming in dyners places where this wisedome hath not ben heard of there may seme to haue bin some shewes of eyther florishing or tollerable common wealths yet neyther haue those endured but according to the prophecie of Daniell haue bene broken all to peeces so that there is not so much of them left as a sheard to fetche fyre in neyther yet can those kingdomes whiche haue the knowledge of the Gospell reuealed vnto them looke for that long suffering and pacience of God towards them wherwith those ignorant kingdoms haue ben borne with For as the benefite is greater towardes these than towardes the other so is the iudgement swifter against them than against the other if that grace which was not offered vnto them being offered vnto these bee refused and made light of And in these especially is and shall be fulfilled that whiche the Prophet Esay saith that it shall be in the later days that euery nation and kingdom which shal not serue the Church shall be destroyed As of the other syde the full and whole placing of our sauiour Christe in his throne is the perpetuall stay and stayed perpetuitie of all Princes in theyr seates Io. Whitgifte All this is true for if any nation shall refuse the word of God offered vnto it or not suffer Christ wholly to be placed in his throne no doubt God will poure vppon that nation his plagues as he hath done vpon al other that haue runne into the same contempt But would you make your reader beléeue that bycause this Churche of England doth not admit your kind of gouernment therefore the walles of it be broken the word of God contemned and Christe not suffered wholly to be placed in hys throne We admit the Gospell wholly and in gouernments the magistrates take vpon them no office only proper to Christ neyther yet any authoritie which is not by the word of God limited vnto them These wordes might aptly haue bin spoken if you had written against the state of the Churche in Fraunce or any such like kingdome as refuseth the Gospell offered vnto it and most cruelly persecuteth the true professors of the same I do not excuse such in the Churche of England as contemne the word of God neither do I iustify the whole Church for not receiuing the Gospell offred by bringing foorth the frutes therof as it ought to do But I exhort euery mā from the highest to the lowest euen in the bowells of Iesus Christ to haue a better regard thervnto least it be sayd vnto vs as it is sayd vnto the Church of Ephesus Apoc. 2. Sed babeo aduersum te quod charitatem tuam pristinam c. I haue some thing against Apoc. 2. thee bycause thou hast forsaken thy former loue c. And to the Hebrues 6 For the earth Hebr. 6 whiche drinketh in rayne that commeth ofte vpon it and bringeth foorth herbes meete for them by whome it is dressed receiueth blessing of God But that whiche beareth thornes and briers is reproued and is neere vnto curssing whose ende is to be burned For surely euen these contentions stirred vp in the Churche where the Gospell is truly preached are argumentes that we be voyde of loue and peace the chiefe and principall tokens and frutes of the Gospell T C. And therfore if this booke shall come into the handes of any that haue accesse vnto hir Maiestie the head of this common wealth or vnto hir most honorable counsatle the shoulders therof my humble sute and heartie request in the presence of God is that according as their callings will suffer them they will put them in remembrance of these things which otherwise they know better than I and that they would set before them the example of Moses who was not contented to haue brought the people out of Egipt * T. C. maketh greater accopt of the gouernmet than of the Gospell it selfe ▪ for he 〈◊〉 the state of this Churche to he wand ing in the wildern but would verie fain also haue conducted them into the lande of Canaan that is would gladly haue bene the instrument of the full and whole deliuerance of the people And seing that the Lord doth offer them this honour which he denied vnto his seruant Moses that they woulde not make themselues guiltie of so greate vnthankfulnesse as will folowe of the forsaking of so incomparable a benefite That hir Maiestie especially and hir most honorable counsayle would sette before them the example of Dauid who although he made a great reformation of those things which were defaced by Saul yet he was not content that the Arke
ministers which caused it to bee celebrated when the people returned out of their captiuitie for it appeareth in the booke of Nehemias that the feast of Tabernacles which was commaunded of 8. Chap. the Lorde to be celebrated euery yeare was * This is a manifest vntruth as shall appeare not celebrated from the days of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie And yet were there in this space dysiers both iudges and kings both priests and Prophets singularly zealous and learned If therefore the omitting of so necessary a thing so many hundreth yeares by such godly zelous learned persons could not bring any prescription against the truth the lacke of this necessary discipline by the space of 30. yeares through the ouersight of a fewe if they be compared with that multitude ought not to be alleadged to keepe it out of the Church Io. Whitgifte Surely the inequalitie of the persons and great difference betwixt them both in godlynesse zeale learning experience and age though it séeme a small matter too some yet it ought to be well considered for it is well knowne that the firste sorte of men here mentioned did excell in all those forenamed qualities and haue continued in the same euen to the death and the latter sort many of them singular in learning zeale wisedome experience hauing also knowledge of other Churches refourmed more than you howsoeuer it pleaseth you and some of your companions vndutifully to contemne them wherefore as I saide this comparison is something and not so lightly to be estéemed as you would make the reader beléeue For my part I thinke the worse of you bycause you thinke so well of your selues that you dare be so bolde as not onely to compare your selues with them but to preferre your selues before them As for this Humilitie and abasing your selfe in saying that you cōfesse your selfe to be a great deale inferioure to the least of them He that will take paynes but to peruse your booke shall easly vnderstand that you thinke nothing lesse For truly your stile is so bigge and loftie and your tauntes such towards them and others that a man would thinke you not only to haue cast off all modestie but vtterly to haue forgotten all good manners ciuilitie and duetie But it is Rhetoricke common to you with other of your companions as appeareth in diuers places of the first Admonition and in the second throughout the whole which I would wish the reader to consider that he may thereby partly know and discerne your spirit But say you the omitting of these necessarie things ought to be no more preiudice agaynste them c. Surely if you can proue that they haue omitted any thing expressely against the commaundement of God then is it true that you say but if you cannot do so then do you vniustly charge these learned and godly martyrs But what if you haue abused the place in the. 8. Chapter of Nehemias What if you vnderstand it not truely The feast of Tabernacles was not so lōg omitted What if there can be no suche thing gathered of it as you woulde make the reader beléeue Shall I triumph ouer you and say that eyther you haue not read it or you do not vnderstand it or that you willingly and wittingly abuse it or that you receiued it in some notes from others as it pleaseth you to deale with me when no such occasion is offered vnto you I will not so requite you But this only I say that you haue not set downe the true sense of that place For the meaning is not that the feasts of Tabernacles was The true interpretation of the place alleadged out of the 8. of Nehemias not celebrated from the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun vnto that day which was almost a thousand yeares but that it was not celebrated in that manner that is with such solemnitie so great reioycing and gladnesse as the very wordes them selues declare both in the Hebrue text and in the best translations And so dothe Pellicane expounde that place who saith that these words since the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun. c. be spoken Pellican in 8. Nebe in the respect of the greatnesse of the ioy whiche then happened to the people Lyra also expoundeth the same place much after the same sort and presupposeth nothyng lesse than that the feasts were omitted all this time for he affirmeth that they were much more solemnly and with greater cost celebrated in the times of Dauid and Salomon Lyra in 8. Nebe therefore saith he the comparison is secundum quid proportionaliter for I vse hys words bycause in all this time sithence Iosua it is not read that the people were so generallie gathered togither in Hierusalem as we reade in the beginning of this Chapter that they were at this time and againe he saith that it was more for the people newly returned frō captiuitie to celebrate suche a feast with that solemnitie than it was to mightie kings and people being in prosperitie and setled in a kingdome to celebrate the same day with much more cost and solemnitie I might alledge other expositiors to the same effect neyther haue I read any that doth expound that place otherwise The like kind of speach we haue 2. Reg. 23. where it is said That there was no passouer 2. Reg. 23. holden like that which Iosias helde from the dayes of the Iudges that iudged Israell nor in all the days of the kings of Israell and the kings of Iuda whiche is only spoken in respect of the multitude and zeale of the people with the great preparation and not bycause the passouer was not all this time celebrated The like is also vsed 2. Chro. 2. Chro. 30. 26. 30. vers 26. euen so it is in this place for there is no doubt but that the feast of Tabernacles was celebrated both in Dauid and Salomons time and it is manifest that it was celebrated not long before this time as it is in plaine words expressed 1. Esdras 1. Esra cap. 3. vers 4. Ca. 3. vers 4. wherefore I might make much ado at this ouersight of yours or rather wilfull deprauing of the scriptures if I were delighted with that kind of confuting But though my learning be small and that I am ignoraunt both of Logicke and Philosophie and haue read so little in Diuinitie and you so mightie a man in the Scriptures and so profound in all kind of knowledge as you perswade your selfe to be yet you must be content here to be admonished of me that you haue abused this place and that it serueth not for your turne to proue those godly men which suffered martyrdome in Duéene Maries time to haue permitted any thing in this Churche of Englande after it was reformed expressely contrary to the commaundemente and word of God as you vntruly report So many good high priestes in the reygnes
no such weight then can you not excuse eyther your selfe or them In déed the Papists haue no iust matter of reioycing for they disagrée both in me also in far greater matters thā these be euen in y e chiefest points of their religion but this is no sufficient excuse for vs we may not disagrée in truth bicause they disagrée in error Neither ought the weak to be offended bicause such cōtentions haue bin vsual in the Church as I haue also shewed in myne Epistle dedicatorie to the Churche of England But yet wo be vnto those by whome suche offences come T. C. And it is to be remembred that these controuersies for the most part are not betwene many For sundry of those things which are cōprehended in the answer to the Admonition haue as I am persuaded few fauorers of those especially which are of any stayed or soūder iudgement in y e scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other Churches so that in deed the father of that answere excepted we haue this controuersie oftentimes rather with the Papistes than with those whiche professe the Gospell as we doe Io. Whitgifte Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God or of mine own priuate persuasion but I haue either sufficient warrant of the worde of God or some godly lerned zelous authors iudgement for the same If I haue done otherwise I trust I shal heare of it in this booke but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound iudgement ioyne with me in these matters such especially as haue had the beste experience of the order and gouernment of other reformed Churches for proofe whereof I referre you to the wisest godlyest and best learned among the clergie in this lande T. C. And where as last of all it is sayde that this precedeth of enuie of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause whiche is neither enuious singular nor popular and although they be such as might be seuerally by greate likelyhodes probabilities refuted yet bicause the knowledge of these things pertaineth only to God which is the searcher of the heart raynes and for auoyding of to much tediousnesse we will reste in his iudgement tary for the day wherin the secretes of hearts shal be made manifest And yet all men doe see how vniustly we be accused of singularitie * Notable vntruths as wil fal out in triall which propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teache the writers both olde and newe for the moste parte affirme the examples of the Primitiue Churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme Io. Whitgifte Whether if procéede of enuie or no lette the manner bothe of their and your writings declare Popularitie you can not auoyde séeing you séeke so greate an equalitie committe so many thyngs to the voyces of the people and in sundrye places so greately magnifye and extoll them than the whyche thrée what can bée more popular Singularitie and the properties therof It is Singularitie to deuyde youre selfe from that Churche whyche bothe professe the woorde of God truely and is not to bée touched in any poynte of doctrine necessarie to saluation It is true that a godly learned writer sayth Charitie Musc. in 〈◊〉 Mat. knittes together and reconcileth singularitie cutteth in peeces and diuideth it is the beginning and roote of all heresie to hate contemne the cōmunion of the church And a little after There be some contentious persons whom no church can please always hauing some thing to blame in other but nothing in themselues which is a manifest signe of singularitie But bicause the mindes and affections of men are certainly knowne only to God the determinate iudgement hereof I also referre vnto him As for this bolde assertion that you propeund nothing that the scriptures doe not teach c. howe true it is must hereafter by examination appeare The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as wel against the cause as the fauourers therof albeit they be many and diuers yet are they no other thā which haue bin long sithens in the Prophets apostles our sauior Christs now of late in our times obiected against the truth the professors therof And therefore as y e sunne of the truth then appered brake through al those clouds which rose against it to stop the light of it so no doubt this cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those sclanders could not bring the truth in disgrace with those y t loued it so the children of y e truth through these vntrue reports wil neither leaue the loue of this cause which they haue alredy cōceiued nor yet ceasse to enquire diligently to iudge indifferētly of those surmises which are put vp aagaynst it Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course which men of any sect though not truly wil apply vnto thēselues if they be otherwise delt with than they can wel beare The truth certainly can not be kept vnder by any meanes and yet sometime error ouershadoweth the truth euen as the cloudes do the Sunn My hope also is that men will not be caried away with slaunderous reportes ▪ for if they shoulde then musre you néedes preuayle but with sounde reasons and the truth of the cause The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercōmed al these lets climed ouer them when they wer cast in our way to hinder vs from cōming frō the grosse darknesse of Poperie vnto y e glorious light of the Gospel there is no cause why now they shuld stay our course to further perfection cōsidering that neither the stile is higher now thā it was before being the very selfe same obiections in all this time we ought so to haue grown in knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the Gospell that they shoulde be as the feete of a hynde able to surmount euen a wall if neede were Io. Whitgifte There is but one truth that is certain whē we haue obteined if we must therin remain constant without altering whosoeuer shal ouerleap or ouerrun this wall must of necessitie procure vnto himself great danger and therfore according to the olde prouerbe Looke before thou leape We must grow in faith knowledge always be growing going forward but it doth not therfore follow y t we must dayly inuent new opinions or broach new dectrines alter in iudgement we must grow in strength of faith we must increace in practise and loue of vertue we must studie to encrease our knowledge that we may be the more confirmed in the truthe that we haue learned out of the worde of God This is an euill collection we must grow in the knowledge of
the truth therfore we must alwayes be altering and changing our religion The Epistle of T. C. Sect. vlt. The summe of al is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without al mist of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent eare without the waxe of preiudice the argumēts of both sides may be weighed not with the changeable weights of custome of time of men which notwithstanding Popish excepted shal be shewed to be more for the cause than against it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible vnchangeable word of God And I humbly beseech the Lord to increase in vs the spirit of knowledge iudgement that we may discern things which differ one from an other and that we may be lyncere and without offence vntill the day of Christe Io. Whitgifte This doe I in lyke maner desyre with all my heart and to the latter ende of it I say Amen The middest if you proue not then shall you be blamed for making such a bragge T. C. The Author to the Reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentle reader that thou wouldest vouchesafe diligently and carefully to compare Maister Doctours answere and my replie bothe that thou mayst the better vnderstād the truth of the cause that the vntempered speches of him especially that whippeth 〈◊〉 desireth hat hich ▪ as much as lieth in him he hath sought to inder other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and his lose conclusions which I haue to auoyd tediousnesse not so fully pursued may y e better appere which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chiefly I desire it may be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstande what is sayd of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before him * Vaine nd vn s fficient ex u se why he ha h not et down the answer to the Ad onition The cause of whiche diuersitie rose of that that I fyrste purposed to set down his answer before my replie as he did the Admonition before his answer But afterward considering that his booke being alreadie in the handes of men it woulde be double charges to buye it again And especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownesse of the printe for want of help the repli by that meanes should come forth later than was conuement for although he might commodiously bring in the Admonition being short yet the same coulde not be doone in his booke swelling in that sorte which it dothe I saye these things considered I chaunged my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes whiche moued me so to doe bicause I knowe that thos if any be whiche haue determined to continue their foreiudged opinions againste the cause whatsoeuer be alleaged wil herevpon take occasion to surmize that I haue lefte out his answere to the ende that it might the lesse appeare wherin I haue passed ouer any weyghte of his reasons wheras had it not bin for these causes which I haue before alleadged my earneste desire was to haue set his answere before my replie wherof I call the Lord to witnesse whom I knowe to be a sharpe iudge against those which shall abuse his holie name to any vntruth Io. Whitgifte You haue well prouided for the comparing of Master Doctors answer with your replie howsoeuer you protest y e your earnest desire was to set it down before your The true ca ses why T. C. sette not downe the answere Replie yet the sequele wil declare the contrarie for it shal euidently appere that therfore you haue omitted it bicause you are loth they should be compared together least your friuolous Replies your childish collections your wilful deprauing your fraudulent dismembring of my booke should manifestly appeare Full wel knew you that your fautours in whose hands especially your bookes are kept would not take pains to compare them both together except they had bin ioyned together that they might haue done it with one labor And suerly herein you haue delt verie vnhonestly with me done me great iniurie and not performed that towards me that you before required of me in one of your pamphlets and doe nowe againe require of me in the end of this booke But wise and indifferent men will soone espie the causes if it will please them to pervse this booke with some diligence My vntempered speaches if they be compared with your floutes disdaynful phrases or with either of y e Admonitiōs wil séeme I am sure verie modest And no doubt you would haue set down some examples of some of them if they had bin such as you would make the reader beleeue But in your booke he may sée the humblenesse of your spirite and iudge whether that one qualitie be founde in you or no which Zuinglius in Zuinglius his booke called Elenchus contra Anabap. and in his bookes de baptismo Ecclesiast and Bullinger in his booke Aduersus Anabap. do say is cōmon to the Anabaptists that is to reuile Bullinger the ministers of the worde and much more bitterly to inuey against them if they withstand their errors than against the Papists Truly if you should haue written against the doggeddest Papist or the pestilentest heretike that euer was you could not haue inuented howe in more spitefull maner to deface him but how truly it resteth in y e tryall Touching lose conclusions it is vnlike that you haue omitted any seing y t you haue famed those to be which are not Wherein your false dealing plainly appereth shal b made manifest Your excuses for omitting my booke in your replie be mere excuses for why should you run in suspition of corrupt dealing for sauing x d. in an other mans purse as for the volume of your booke it would not haue ben much bigger if you had spared your superfluous digressions cut off your vain words kept in your scornful and opprobrious speaches What I think of your protestatiō I haue told you before To his louyng Nurse the Christian Churche of England Io. VVhitgifte a membre and minister of the same vvisheth peace in Christe and continuance of his glorious Gospel euen to the worldes ende THere bee dyuers things and especially fiue that when I fyrste tooke this laboure in hande had almoste vtterly dissuaded mee from the same Fyrste bycause I doe with all my hearte hate contention and stryfe and especially in matters of Religion among suche as professe the selfe same Gospell Secondly for that I feared greatly least some sclaunder myghte tedounde to the Gospell by this open contention seing that God is not the author of contention or confusion but of peace 1. Cor. 14. Thirdly I doubted whether this kinde of dealing by writing might minister matter to the common aduersaries of the Gospel to reioyce and glorie and to flatter themselues the more in their damnable errours Fourthly I
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
* Scriptures alledged for profe of the phrase phrase are quoted for proofe of the matter The other practise is that where the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth and was necessarie in that case could not applie the places M. Doctor presuming too muche of the ignorance of his reader thought he mighte make him beleeue that any thing else was meant by those places than that whiche they meant in deede and for which they were alleadged And where you say the quotations are only to delude such c. I see you hold it no fault in your selfe which you condemne so precisely in others that is to iudge before the time to sit in the conscience to affirme definitely of their thoughts contrary to their owne protestation But seeing you lift vp our imperfections so high ▪ and set them as it were vpon a stage for all men to be looked of to the discredite of the truth which we do mainteyne you shal not thinke much if your pouertie be pointed vnto in those things wherein you would carrie so great countenance of store Io. Whitgifte The abusing of the scriptures and the vniust applying of them is to be mainteined The abusing of scripture is to be mainteined in none neither in Papist nor other and least of all in such as séeming to giue most authoritie vnto them do by that meanes giue occasion to the aduersarie to contemne them What iust occasion might the Papists haue of triumphing if they should vnderstand that we as licenciously wring and wrest the scriptures to serue our turne as they do to serue theirs And truly as well may they applie the scriptures that they vse in the defense of their Transubstantiation Purgatory Merites Images c. as the authours of the Admonition can do to proue those things for the which they do oftentimes alleadge them And therefore I thinke that my speach in that pointe againste them cannot be too sharp Charitie doth not so couer open and manifest sinnes that it suffereth them to be vnreprehended but it remitteth priuate offences it doth not publish secret sinnes at the first neither doth it disclose all things that it knoweth to the defamation of a brother when he may be otherwise reformed But this fault of theirs in abusing the scriptu s is publike printed in bookes in euery mans hand vsed to discredite and deface this Church of England which no true member of the same ought to suffer Wherfore in detecting this vntrue dealing I haue not broken any rule of Charitie but done my bounden duty If there be so many of their quotatiōs tossed and throwen away by me c. I trust you will let me vnderstand of them as occasion is offered which surely you haue done in very few places and in those wherein you haue done it you haue done it very slenderly loosely as will appeare I take very litle or no aduantage at al of the Printer but salue that as muche as I can and where as you saye that where the Admonition quoteth the scripture not only to proue the matter but to note the place from whence the phrase of speach is taken c. that is a very féeble excuse and far fetched for to what purpose shoulde they so do or why do you not by some examples declare vnto vs that they haue so done this is but a shifte and argueth that you are not purposed to acknowledge any fault be it neuer so manifest And therefore little hope there is of any amendment And whereas you also say that the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth c. to that I answere as before and I adde that it was very vncircumspectly done of them to quote places whiche coulde not be applied to that purpose for the which they were quoted In suche matters men ought to haue such regard vnto the time that they abuse not the worde of God But I haue as you say otherwise applyed their quotations than they meant indeede I thinke you will let me heare of it when you come to those places and then shall I shape you an answere To what purpose should the margent of their booke be pestred with such vnapte quotations but only to delude the reader and to make him beléeue that all things there conteined be grounded of the expresse word of God where things be open and manifest there a man may iudge though he sit not in the conscience of him of whom he iudgeth As for Protestations they be nowe so vsuall and common in euery matter and the sequele so many times contrarie to the same that it is hard for a man to giue credite at all times to all persons protesting there is experience of it I coulde alleadge examples if I were disposed Set out my pouertie as much as you can and spare it not but take héede least in so doing you shewe yourselfe poore indéede and that in those things especially wherein you séeme most to complaine of my pouertie A briefe examination c. Secondly their proofes consist especially of these arguments The Argu. a sec dum quid ad simpliciter firste is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod simpliciter est as such and such things were not in the Apostles time Ergo they ought not to be nowe Which kind of argument is very deceitfull and the mother and welspring of many both old and new schismes of old as of them that called themselues Apostolicos and of the Aërians of new as of the Anabaptists who cōsidering neither the diuersitie of times concerning the externall ecclesiasticall policie nor the true libertie of the Christian religion in externe rites and ceremonies in matters neither commaunded nor forbidden in Gods Law nor the authoritie of Christian magistrates in the Christian congregation concerning the same haue boldly enterprised to stirre vp many and heinous errours For if these reasons should take place the Apostles vsed it not Ergo it is not lawfull for vs to vse it or this either they did it Ergo we must needes do it then no Christians may haue any place to abide in they may haue no Christian Princes no ministration of sacraments in Churches and such like for the Apostles had no place to abide in they had no Christiā Princes to gouerne them no Churches to minister sacraments in c. Likewise we must haue al things Acts. 2. 4. common we must depart with all our possessions when we be conuerted Math. 19. to the Gospel baptise abroade in the fields minister the communiō Acts. 8. in priuate houses only be always vnder the crosse and vnder Act. 2. 20. Tyrants and such like For the Apostles had al things common departed from their possessions baptised abroade in fields ministred the communion in priuate houses were always vnder persecutors and Tyrants c. Io. Whitgifte To this kind of argument and that which is here spoken T. C. maketh no answer at
the seconde I intende to iustifie T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 4. In the. 69. page he sayth Cyprian speaking of the office of an Archbishop which is a manifest petition of the principle For it beeing that which should haue bin * It is proued sufficiently in the treaâ—se of Archbishops proued M. Doctor taketh it for graunted And in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop he goeth about to deceyue hys reader with the fallation of the equiuocation or diuers signification of the word For whatsoeuer he findeth sayde of Archbishop Bishop in times past he bringeth to establishe our Archbishops and Bishops when notwithstanding those in times past were muche different from ours and are not of that kinde as shall appeare afterwarde Io. Whitgifte As though Cyprian may not speake of the office of an Archbishop excepte he expresse his name or as though the circumstance of the place may not declare that he speaketh of suche an office But howe iustly I am heere charged with a manyfest petition of a principle I shall haue better occasion to declare when I come to answere the manyfest cauill which T. C. vseth touching that place of Cyprian Howe also in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop I go about to deceyue my reader with the fallation of equiuocation which is only sayd in this place without any maner of proofe or any one exaÌ„ple shal likewise appeare when I come to answere the replie touching that matter where it will euidently fall out that T. C. is greatly deceyued in that he supposeth the Archbishops and Bishops in times past so muche to differ from ours especially if he meane the difference to be in authoritie and office T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 5. In the. 239. page he reasoneth that for so muche as those which weare the apparel doo edifie Another vntrue collection therefore they edifie by reason of the apparell which is to make that the cause which is not but onely commeth with the cause Io. Whitgifte You deale in this as you haue done in the rest that is corruptly for the seconde reason which I there vse to proue that the apparell doth edifie is this That such as haue worne the apparell and do weare it by the ministery of the worde haue greatly edified and do dayly In the whiche argument I make not the apparell the efficient or substantiall cause of edifying but an accidentall cause For you knowe that it is an order and lawe in the Churche of Englande that none shoulde either administer the Sacraments or preache excepte he receiue the apparell appoynted forasmuche therefore as he that refuseth to weare the apparell by order of this Church may not preache and therefore can not that way edifie and he that weareth that apparell may preache and so edifie therfore the apparell per accidens doth edifie euen as the Church the Pulpit and suche other things doo whiche edifie not per se of themselues but per accidens accidentally as all other accidentall ceremonies do T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 6. In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus that the surplice c. be notes notes of good ministers therfore they be good notes of ministers which is a fallation of composition when a man thinketh that whatsoeuer is sayde of a thing by it selfe may be sayde of it when it is ioyned with another Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth that cappe gowne tippet c. haue the shewe of euill seeing the Popishe priesthoode is euill To the which I answering say on this sort When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthoode then they were euill euen as the thing was which they signified but nowe they be signes and tokens of the ministers of the worde of God which are good and therefore also they be good What can you say to this maner of speaking is it not true to say that they were signes of euill when the things that they signified were euill and nowe they be signes of good séeing the things they signifie be good and as they were euill signes when they signified euill things so they be nowe good signes bicause they signifie good things Doo we not commonly call the signes and notes good or euill euen as the things signified be good or euill None is so ignorant that knoweth not this and therefore my reason is good but your collection is like it selfe I haue vsed no other maner of reasoning or speaking in this place than M. Bucer dothe in the same matter Fol. 59. 60. And therefore this is rather spoken agaynst him than agaynst me T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 7. In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus Those which authorized the booke of Common prayer were studious of peace and buylding the Churche therefore those which finde faulte with it are pullers downe of the Church and disturbers of the peace which is a fallation of the Accident when a man thinketh that euery thing which is verified of the subiect may be likewise verified of that which is annexed vnto it The further confutation of the which arguments I referre vnto their places Io. Whitgifte The AdmonitioÌ„ sayth that those persons in which and by whom the booke of Common prayer was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Churche Wherevpon I conclude that if that be true then the defacers of that booke be disturbers of the peace Which I gather of that that they theÌ„ selues haue grauÌ„ted and as I am perswaded truely neither doo I vnderstande howe it can be made a fallation ab accidente For I thinke that the meaning of the authors of the Admonition is that these men shewed them selues desirous of peace and of buylding vp the Church euen in collecting and authorising that booke or else to what purpose shoulde they make any mention of them whiche if it be true as it is then the argument muste of necessitie followe T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 8. There be diuers other which he hath which are so farre from iuste conclusions as they haue not so muche as any colour of likelyhoode of argument whiche I can not tell where to lodge vnlesse I put them in the common inne which is that whiche is called the ignorance of the Elench As in the. 68. page when he concludeth thus * An vntruthe for there is no such aagument â–ª that Cyprian speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome Ergo he speaketh of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte I might héere iustly quarell with you for leaping so disorderly sometimes forward and sometimes backwarde as from the. 240. page to the. 149. and from that to the 68. c. But I let al such things passe and come to the matter In the. 68. page as you quote it but in déede the. 69. after I haue declared the true meaning of Cyprian I adde that Cyprian there speaketh not of the vsurped authoritie of the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches but agaynst the insolencie of some which despising their Metropolitane or
euery one of your surmises contayned in thys treatise whiche you entitle an exhortation c. And if I lyked to make a long booke of little matter as you doe I woulde thus gather your argumentes out of euery braunche whyche you ascribe as common vnto vs with the Anabaptistes as you make adoe vpon euery place whiche is quoted by the Admonition to the Parliament But answere I pray you in good faythe are you of that iudgemente that the ciuill Magistrate should ordayne ministers (1) No but that may be the true church of Christ wherein there is no excommunication the contrarie whereof the Anabaptist affyrme Or that there should be no excommunication as it was and is vsed in certayne the Heluetian Churches If you be your controuersie is not so muche wyth vs as wyth the Bishops whiche bothe call ministers and excommunicate If you be not why is that Anabaptisticall in vs whiche is Christian and Catholike in you And why do you go about to bring vs in hatred for those things which you do no more allowe than those whō you thus endeuour to discredite we do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinarie calling in Englande for we do not denie but that he maye be lawfully called which is not ordinarily as M. Luther Melancthon Zuinglius Decolampadius And there be (2) By what a tho e presume those parishes so 〈◊〉 places in England where the ministers be called by their parishes in such sort (3) What scriptures or where ▪ will you not quote one ▪ as the examples of the scripture doe shewe to haue been done before the eldership gouernment of the Church be established I knowe not any that sayth that the Gospell is not truely preached in Englande and by those also that are not of the same iudgement that the Admonition to the Parliament is of But if it be sayde that it is not generally of cuery one of them and in all poynts or not so often or not there where their duetie byndeth them and they are called vnto or not so sincerely or without mixture as it ought to be then there is nothing sayde but that which we feare may be too easely proued It it be sayde of some that in certayne there are founde some of those things that were reprehended in the Phariseis what is that to proue that they be Anabaptistes that speake of it Your selfe in one place of your booke call the authors of the Admonition and their fauourers Phariseis who doe all things to be seene of menne and therefore they sighe and holde downe their heades c. And this you speake agaynst them that preache the Gospell Therefore by your reason you giue sentence of Anabaptisine agaynst your selfe You promised you woulde not write one worde whereof you had not your author for it First you haue (4) This is vntrue peruerted the meanyng of the Anabaptistes in that wherein they acculed the godly Ministers that they were not according to that which is written in the thirde of the. 1. Epist. to Timothe and all bycause you woulde multiply the number of your likelyhoodes For they charged the Ministers by that place of dissolutdnesse and losenesse of lyfe and corruption of manners and we allcadge it to proue that they should be able to teache and instructe agaynst the dumbe Ministerie that is abroade But that which followeth vttereth not onely great (5) Is it be not o what maye be 〈◊〉 of you ▪ vntruth and falsification of the author but sheweth a minde desirous to slaunder and sorie as it seemeth that those which you so greuously discredite are no lyker the Anabaptistes than they be I wyll set downe the wordes as they are written in the. 102. leafe that it may appeare howe faythfully you haue dealte Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui sripendium accipiunt non esse veros Deiministros neque posse docere ueritatem sed esse uentris ministros qui o iose accipiant ingentia stipendia ex illis rebus quae simulachris immolatae fuerunt ex diuitijs splendide luxuriose uiuant cum tamen Christus dixit gratis accepistis gratis date prohibuit duas tunicas peram pecuniam habere preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse mandasse reliquis ut idem faciant itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii sed laborare gratis ministrare quia hoc non faciunt non posse ipsos ueritatem docere They say What other thing is assirmed in the seconde articles freely speaking of the Anabaptistes that the preachers which take stipendes can not be the true ministers of God nor teach the truthe but are ministers of the bellie which to liue idlely take gret stipendes of those things which were offered to images and do of their riches liue gorgeously and riotousely when notwithstanding Christ sayde ye haue receyued freely giue freely and forbad thē to haue two coates or a scrippe or money Besydes that they say that Paule laboured with his owne handes and gaue commaundement to the rest of the Ministers that they shoulde doe so and therefore they conclude that they should haue no stipende for their office but labour and minister for nought and bicause they do not so they cannot teach the truthe Nowe let all men iudge whether it be one thing to say that they ought not to haue stipendes that labour not or to saye as the Anabaptistes sayde that it was not lawfull to haue any stipende or to say they could not teach truely bicause they had great liuings or bicause they had any liuings at all Although I neuer read nor heard any of those that you meane say that those which had great stipendes and liuings could not preach truely It may be that diuers haue sayd that it were meete the ministers should be content with competent stipendes and that the ouerplus of that might go to the supplie of the wants of other ministers liuings and to the maintenaunce of the poóre or of the vniuersitie and that that excesse is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preach truely when they preached which had great liuings I for my parte neuer hearde it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherein you faulte and therefore I knowe not what you meane by these words that they dyd not those things themselues which thei taught others we professe no such perfectiō in our liues but that we are oftentimes behind a great deale-in doing of that which is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessarie that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptistes accused the ministers for giuing to much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we giue and if it be to little shewe vs and we will amende our fault I assure you it greeueth me and I am euen in
the beginning wearie of turning vp this (6) Note his mo est manerly speaches dung and refuting so baine and friuolous sclanders with out all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be briefe in the rest Io. Whitgifte I speake not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certaine note wherby they may be knowne but of their other qualities and manner of talke and Preaching The wordes be M. Bullingers they be not mine The argumentes framed be yours and neither his nor mine Your disciples magnifie you bicause your vsuall talke both publike and priuate is They seke not the reformatiō but the diffamation of ministers against the Ministers of the Church against their calling against their preaching against their life c. which you doe not to reforme them for you doe it in their absence and to the people but to deface them and to discredite them not to promote the Gospell which they preache as diligently and syncerely as you doe but to bring them into hatred with the people whereby you might the rather preuaile in your enterprises not to reforme their manners for they maye compare wyth you in all kynde of honestie and dutie but to erpresse your malice and wrathe for that whiche Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench contra Anabap. speaketh of them It is melancholie and wrathe not true zeale of whiche they glorie maye be truly verified of you and thereof let thys your booke be iudge Nowe if I say that in this poynte you agrée with the Anabaptistes I doe not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes but thys I conclude that you are not for suche inuemues to bée estéemed as more pure in deede than your brethren nor they thorough suche slaunde os speaches of yours to bée discredited bycause herein you speake or practise nothyng agaynste the true Ministers of the woorde of God but that whyche the Anabaptistes haue doone in the selfe same forme and manner before you And that these be qualities woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes and suche as procéede in lyke manner it may appeare not onely by this obseruation of M. Buliinger but of other learned and Godlie menne also that haue written agaynste them and giuen notes of their qualities Zuinglius in his Booke before named sayth That they speake euyll bothe Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speake euill of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in les of the Ciuill Magistrate and of the ministers of the Churche that if at anye tyme eyther of them accordyng to theyr office reproue them then they streyghtwaye saye that therefore they bee enimyes vnto them bycause they tell them of theyr faultes And in his Ecclesiast he sayeth thus of them They so slaunder reuyle and backebyte the Ministers of the woorde and of the Churche that they oughte to be suspected and hated of all Godlye menne euen for theyr slaunderous and curssed speakyng But theyr ende and purpose is by thys meanes to wynne credite vnto them selues and to discredite suche as sette them selues agaynste them and detecte theyr erroures The lyke saying he hathe in hys booke De. Baptismo To the same effecte also speaketh Gastius of them in his Booke De exordio erroribus Catabap Gastiu where among other sentences he hath thys Theyr talke vttereth nothyng else but reprehension of the Ministers of the worde and libertie in externall things Now iudge I praye you whether this hath ben a qualitie woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes or no I doe not speake agaynste suche as modestly and accordyng to the rule of the Apostle 1. Tunoth 5. doo reproue any but agaynste those that haue nothing else in theyr mouthes but inuectiues agaynste the Ministers of the woorde obseruyng neyther place tyme nor anye other circumstances whome I still say in this poynt to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists Nowe whether it bée my Logike or yours that you gyue a taste of in thys placelette the learned Reader iudge to whome also I committe the tryall of thys spyrite of yours whyche bursteth out in suche vnséemely manner vpon the consyderation of your owne deuysed argumentes to féede your contempte and disdayne with In déede if you make argumentes where I make none and if you frame them as it pleaseth you no meruayle it is though you make a long booke and cause your Reader to beleeue that my Logicke is as simple as you woulde haue it But deale with mée vprightly and honestly and then set downe my vnskilfulnesse and spare not as I trust you woulde doo to the vttermost in euery poynt if you could séeing that you doe it where there is no occasion at all offered vnto you by mée but imagined of youre selfe Well let these quarelles goe more méete to be among boyes than among men Gratia Dei sum quod sum neyther haue I any thing but that whiche I haue receyued of him from whom commeth all good things Bothe of the election of ministers and of excommunication what I thynke I will declare God willing in their proper places The woordes here by me alledged as I haue saide are Master Bullingers and they be truly spoken and to good purpose as there it shall appeare In the meane while I referre you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers to the 87. and 88. leaues of that his Booke Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leafe of the same Booke You denye that you saye there is no lawfull or no ordinarye callyng of Mynisters in Englande whych is a strange hearyng to mée for wherevnto then tendeth all that whych is wrytten in your Booke touching the electing and calling of Ministers or F st Admonition contrarie to T. C. that which is written in the fyrst Admonition Folio 9 ▪ where they say in playne termes that wee haue neyther a ryghte Ministerie of God nor a righte gouernement of hys Churche And Folio 34. 35. 36. c Folio 157. where they saye that thys prescripte forme of Seruice vsed in this Churche of Englande mayntayneth an vnlawfull ▪ Ministerie or that whyche is so bytterly spoken agaynst the Booke of orderyng ▪ Ministers and Deacons whyche they call the Pontificall But you saye that he may be lawfully called whyche is not ordinarilye I woulde haue you to speake playnely Is our calling to the Ministerie here in England lawful but not ordinarie If it be lawfull then is it not agaynste the woorde of God neyther is there any Lawe in the Scriptures to the contrarie as you woulde make vs to beléeue But truly I thynke that you were not here well aduysed or else haue you some suttle meaning for you adde immediately that there be places in Englande where the Ministers are called by theyr Parishes c. So that I suppose you meane that in some Parishes of Englande there is a lawfull callyng of Ministers if it bée so then is it not withstanding truly sayde that you
denie the maner of callyng Ministers in this Churche of Englande to be lawfull for that maner of callyng is not to be ascribed to this Churche which is vsed in some conuenticles and secrete congregations but that which is allowed by publike and common authoritie Your distinction of lawfull and ordinarie is not simply good for whatsoeuer is lawfull Lauful is ordinarie in a Church established in a Church established that is ordinarie I think that euen very cōmon reason dothe teache this to be true Wherfore certaynly if our ministerie bée lawfull it is ordinarie If any Parishe in Englande doe electe or call their ministers otherwyse than the orders and Lawes of thys Churche dothe permitte I can not sée howe that Parishe can excuse it selfe of schisme and I thinke verilye that suche Parishes ought to bée looked too in tyme. I doe not well vnderstande ▪ what you meane by these wordes in suche sorte as the examples of the Scripture doe shewe to haue bene doone before the Eldership and gouernmente of the Churche bee established What examples bée these you quote no places where to fynde them ▪ Or when was the gouernmente of the Churche and Eldershyp established If you had more playnly expressed these two thyngs wée myghte haue the better vnderstoode youre meanyng But belyke these Parishes doo not call theyr Ministers in all poyntes accordyng to the rule that you woulde haue prescribed and therfore you make an Interim of it vntill your gouernment be fully finished This is your dealyng to allowe of all things doone out of order yea though it bée against your owne order so that it tende to the derogation of publike and common order Whether they saye that the Gospell is not truely preached in this Churche of Englande The Admomtors denye the Gospell to be truly preached in Englande or no looke in the whole discourse of their booke and in the seconde Admonition page 6. where you may fynde these wordes I saye that we are so scarce come to the outwarde face of a Churche ryghtely reformed that althoughe some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no preacher maye without greate daunger of the Lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God it is so circumscribed and wrapte within the compasse of suche statutes suche penalties suche imunctions suche Aduertisementes suche Articles suche sober Caueats Seconde Admonition pag. 6. and suche manyfolde pamphlets that in manner it dothe but peepe out from behynd the screene What say you to these wordes how can you salue them Whether they generally call all the Ministers of the Gospell which be not on their secte Phariseys or no lette the whole discourse of bothe the Admonitions iudge and that Pamphlet entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherlye with theyr brethren In my answer to which pāphlet I proue that this name Pharisey doth much more aptely agrée vnto the Authors thereof and suche lyke than to the Bishops and other ministers whome they so often call by that name and so odiously compare them together in that pamphlet I must once tell you agayne that I make no argumentes here I doe but onely compare their qualities and conditions I haue performed my promise if I 〈◊〉 not shewe me wherin I peruert not the meaning of the Anabaptistes ▪ but set down the verie woordes of M. Bullinger worde for worde without any addition tion or alteration it had bene well if you had examined the places better Touchyng the falsification and vntruthe you charge mée with I thynke you be not in good earnest it is but bycause you could no longer temper your heate for you make manie of these outcryes but I suppose you vse them only as meanes to caste vp your melancholie whyche you call zeale Whatsoeuer I there speake of the Anabaptistes I fyndeit in the same forme of woordes in those leaues of M Bullingers booke whiche I haue quoted in the Margent Pervse with a little more diligence Fol. 18. where he hath these wordes Quod stipendia babeant non laborent atque ideo ventris ministri sunt and the. 102. And if you fynd not there word for worde all this that I haue here spoken touchyng the stipendes and liuings of ministers and in the same forme of wordes then vse your hotte Rhetorike but I knowe they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem 〈◊〉 be there and you reproue you can not tell what If this so greately trouble you I wil tell you what Zuinglius also sayth of this matter in his Ecclesi istes where he speaking of Anabaptists sayth thus They teach that suche can not preache the Gospell syncerely whiche haue benefices but their hope is to haue the true Pastors expelled that they may succeede in their places and yet they publikely protest that they seeke for no liuing Nowe whether you or your men agrée with them in this poynt or no I neyther Zuingl in Eccles. denie nor affirme if you be prickte I can not blame you thoughe you kicke Neither do I say that those ought to haue stipends which labour not I do but report Bullingers wordes of the Anabaptistes I woulde haue no man exempted from due reprehension I only reporte this to shewe the malitious spirites of the Anabaptistes agaynst the ministers of the woorde that it maye be knowne of what societie they may bée suspected to bée whose talke is wholly bente against the Ministers of the woorde of God That you giue too little to Magistrates it shall be shewed in place Though you bée wearie it is no meruayle for it gréeueth you to bée touched so narrowly And surely if you vse no cleanlyer termes than you doe in this place or continue in pouring oute your choler in suche aboundance you will tyre mée also or euer I make an ende Whatsoeuer I haue here spoken of the Anabaptistes is moste true and therefore no slaunder Io. Whitgifte The. 3. Article Pag. 2. Sect. 3. Thirdly the whole reformation that was then in the Churche displeased them as not spirituall inough and perfect For the Sacramentes Bull. fo 9. 18 ▪ were not as they sayd syncerely ministred things were not reduced to the Apostolike Churche excommunication not rightly vsed no amendement of lyfe appeared since the preaching of the Gospel therfore the Church then reformed no more the true Churche of Christ than was the Papisticall Churche T. C. Pag. 4. Sect. 1. Wee prayse God for thys reformation so farre foorthe as it is agreeable vnto the worde of God wee are gladde the woorde of God is preached that the Sacramentes are ministredthat whiche is wantyng we desire it maye be added that whiche is ouermuche cut off and wee are not ashamed to professe y t we desire it may be done according to the institution of the Churches Io. Whitgifte The. 6. Article Pag 3. Sect. 3. Sixthly they pretended in all their doings the glorie of God Bullin fo 10. the edifying of the Churche and the puritie of the Gospell T.
Anabap. In his Ecclesiastes diuers times and in hys Gastius booke de Baptismo Gastius likewise in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist which they would not do if it were not a note worthy to be noted Surely I thinke that I am able to proue diuers of you to haue in s ated yourselues to places which pleased you before you were called therevnto ▪ And I 〈◊〉 of that iudgement that a man 〈◊〉 lawfully so 〈◊〉 if h 〈◊〉 to do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to profite ▪ For S. Paule saith Lint 3. A man may offer his helpe in the ministe tie in some respect Qui episcopatum c If a man desire the office of a Bishop c. Which place by the iudgement of all the interpreters that I haue red doth signify that a man may offer himselfe with a mind to do good so that he do not intrude himselfe or séeke by vnlawfull 1. Tim. 3. meanes to obtaine that which he desireth for then it is like that he séeketh not to profite other but to profyte himselfe If there be any tou g or wandring ministers it is amongst yourselues which wander p and downe from place to place to low co tion and to deface by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reports suche as mislike your pocéedings Any other that may so truly and tly bée called rouers and wanderers I know none Io. Whitgifte The 22. 23. Articles Pag. 5. Sect. 1. 2. They sought to be free from all lawes and to do what they list Fol. 95. They were animated by crafty and suttle Papistes whiche dyd Fol. 11. seeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell and the restoring of Papisme T. C. Pag. 7. Sect. 1. I answer as to the fifth and touching the. 23. referre the reader to a further answer in that place where occasion is offered to speake of it agayne Io. Whitgifte And for iust application of the. 22. Article I referre you to the 60. and. 61. Page of the second Admonition where I would haue you consider what their meaning is by that Prouiso that they would haue for themselues and by that exemption that they require to haue from the iurisdiction of the Bishops Iustices of Peace c. It is not amisse also to weigh what the equalitie meaneth that they séeke for among the Clergie and the state of the Segniorie where the Pastor must be the cheefe of what degrée soeuer the rest of the seniors be whether Earles Barons c. Io. Whitgifte The 24. Article Page 5. Sect 3. To be short the people had them in great admiration bycause of Fol. 11. their hypocrisie and streightnesse of life and such as were of contentious natures ioyned with them and commended their doings T. C. Pa ▪ 7. Sect. 2. So farre foorth as we may for the infirmities wherewith we are inclosed we indeuoure to adorne the doctrine of the Gospell which we professe we seeke not the admiration of men if God do giue that we haue honest reporte we thinke we ought to mainteine that to the glory of God and aduancement of the Gospell What is our straightnesse of life any other than is required in all Christians we bring in I am sure no monachisme or anchorisme we eate and drinke as other men we liue as other men we are apparelled as other men we lie as other men we vse those honest recreations that other men do and we thinke there is no good thing or commoditie of life in the world but that in sobrietie we may be partakers of so farre as our degree and calling will suffer vs and as God maketh vs able to haue it For the hypocrisie that you so often charge vs with the day shall trie it If any man ioyne with vs with mind to contend it is against our will notwithstanding * Who is so blind as he that will not see we know none and what great stirrers and contenders they be which fauour thys cause let all men iudge Io. Whitgifte These be faire speaches sooner said than proued I accuse you not of these matters I do but report the qualities of the Anabaptists if your owne consciences accuse you or if you will néedes applie these things vnto yourselues as I haue said before I can not let you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 4. 5. These were the maners conditions practises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes in Germanie before they vttered their seditious and monstrous heresies I leaue the application hereof to your wisedomes who easily can coniecture what kind of mē they be that come nearest to these steps Onely I desire you to be circumspecte and to vnderstande that Anabaptisme which vsually followeth the preaching of the Gospell is greatly to be feared in this Church of Englande and almost playnely professed in this Admonition the authors whereof agree wyth them in these forenamed practises and qualities T. C. Pag. 7. Sect. 3. Doe you thinke to mocke the worlde so that when you haue so vniustly and so haynously accused you may wipe your mouth and saye as you dyd before that you will not accuse any and as nowe that you leaue the application Is not this to accuse to say that the authors of the Admonition doe almost playnely professe Anabaptisme Is not this to apply to say that they agree wyth the Anabaptistes in (*) A falsificatio for e addeth this word ▪ all ▪ all the forenamed practises and qualities you woulde faine strike vs but you would doe it in the nyghte when no man shoulde see you and yet if you haue to doe agaynste Anabaptistes you neede not feare to proclayme your warre agaynst them you haue a glorious cause you shall haue a certayne victorie I dare promyse you that you shall haue all the estates and orders of this Realme to clappe their handes and sing your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and triumphant songes But that you woulde conuey your sting so priuily and hissingly as the Adder doth it caryeth with it a suspicion of an euill conscience and of a worse cause than you make the worlde beleeue you haue Io. Whitgifte Truely I am in good earnest I mocke not I greatly feare Anabaptisme which is an heresie that hath many branches and créepeth in secretely vnder notable pretenses and therefore I thought it conuenient to gather these notes together out of suche learned godly writers as haue had experience of them the which also I haue more at large set oute in the seconde edition of my booke If this offende you the offence is Page 19. c. taken and not gyuen you are not able to accuse me iustly hetherto of any vntruth I accuse none bycause I knowe none that will openly professe himselfe to be one or playnely affyrme any article which is of the substance of theyr heresye But I sée diuers walking in the same steppes that the Anabaptistes dyd towardes theyr heresyes and therefore I thoughte it my duetie to admonishe those that be in
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
hande and speake things that the eyes and eares of all men fee and heare to be otherwyse 〈◊〉 yo 〈◊〉 them to the Anabaptistes and Donatistes 〈◊〉 friende of yours mighte thinke you sayde 〈◊〉 bycause suche alway s seekyng darke and solitarie places myghte happely haue some fauourers whych are not knowne But when you ioyne them wyth the Papistes whych are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they imp gne as (*) And yet in defacing and depr uing this Church of England they fully ioyne wyth them and so oe not I. well as you whose markes and badges they can lesse awaye wyth than you whose companie they flie more than you whose punishment they haue called for more than you for your parte haue done and therefore are condemned of them as ruell when you oftentymes carie awaye the name of myldnesse and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commandement in the Scripture to put heretickes to death when I saye you ioyne them thus wyth the Papistes you doe not nely 〈◊〉 your credite in these vntrue furmises wherein I truste wyth the indifferent reader your neuer had any but you make all other things suspected which you 〈◊〉 so that you gyue 〈◊〉 occasion to take vp the common prouerbe agaynst you I wyll truste you no farther than I see you After you haue thus yoked them with the Papistes you go aboute to shewe wherein they drawe wyth them Wherein I fyrst aske of you if all they that affyrme or doe any thyng that the enimyes of the Churche doe are forthwith oyned and conspired with them against the Church what (a) I say that neither Christe nor Paule ioyned either with Gentil Phariseis or false Apostles against the church say you to S. Paule that ioyned wyth the * Pharise s Act. 23. v. 6 in the resurrection with the false Apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians our 2. Cor. II. v. 12. Sauiour Christ which spake agaynst the Jewes which were then the onely people of God as the Gentils dyd which were their enimyes will you saye therefore that eyther Sainte Paule Cor. 9. ioyned wyth the Phariseys or false Apostles agaynst the Churche or that our Sauiour Christ ioyned agaynst the Jewes wyth the Gentils but let vs see your slaunders particularly Io. Whitgifte The same Salomon sayth that in the mouthe of the foolyshe is the roote of pride Pro. 14. c. Euen so it falleth oute with you for whylest with suche proude wordes you séeke to dryue at me you doe but condemne your selfe of follye Pylate and Herode Men of contrarie iudgements ioyne togither against the truthe were at enimitie betwi te them selues and yet they wyned together againste Christ The Phariseis and Saduces were of contrarie opinions yet were they both enimyes to the doctrine of Christ. The Turke and the Pope be of contrarie Religions yet doe they both conspire agaynst the Gospell Papistes and Anabaptistes agrée not eyther in opinion or in societie yet doe they both séeke to deface the Church of Christe Euen so they thoughe they impugne the doctrine of the Papists neuer so ly cast away their markes and badges neuer so farre from them though they cannot abyde theyr companie yet doe they wyth them by the same assertions thoughe not by the same argumentes assaulte this Churche of Englande and bende their force against it Dyd not the seditious Iewes within Ierusalem ioyne wyth the Romains beyng their enimyes inprocuring the destruction of that Citie you are not so ignoraunt as you woulde séeme to be I am sure you vnderstande my meaning Howe or where you haue called for the punishement of the Papistes more than I haue 〈◊〉 and therefore you counted cruell and I made and moderate certaynely I knowe not I heare onely your selfe saye so What I haue done and where I minde not to bragge of at this time I leaue that for you What I haue professed concernyng the putting to deathe of Herotickes the same doe I professe still and am ready thereof to gyue an accompte at all tymes as I shal be required although neyther you nor any man else haue heard me teach that doctrine or professe it but thys is one of your glances by the waye when occasion is gyuen me to speake of that matter I wyll plainely vtter my conscience by the grace of God In the meane tyme it is no cause why I shoulde be better thoughte of among the Papistes for bothe theyr practise and theyr doctrine is eleane contrarie To your question I answere that if they doe that against the Church which the enimyes doe against the same then doe they in that conspire wyth them against the Churche and therefore all your example 〈◊〉 vsed are to no purpose at all For Saynt Paule ioyned wyth the Phariseys and wyth the false Propheteo in those thyngs which were allowed of the Churche and for the commoditie of the Church and therefore in no respecte agaynst the Churche the same answere I make to the example of Christe iustly reprouing the Iewes if you woulde haue vsed apte examples for your purpose then shoulde you haue broughte in suche as beyng of contrarie iudgementes haue notwythsta dyng soughte to ouerthrowe one and the selfe same thing althoughe by diuers meanes But then shoulde you haue concluded agaynst your selfe as you must of necessitie dee So that here where you would séeme to say much you haue saide nothing at all Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 5. Sect. vlt. First the Papistes affirme that we are not the true Churche no that we haue not so much as the outward face and she we of the true Church and so doe these men almost in flat and playne termes T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 1. They doe not denie but there is a visible Church of God in England and therefore your sayings of them that they doe almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so muche as any outwarde face and shewe of the true Church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you whieh vpon one word once vttered contrarie to the tenour of their booke and course of their whole life surmise this of them and how truely you conclude of that word scarce it shall appeare when we come to that place Io. Whitgifte They doe in playne and flat termes write as muche as I doe reporte of them in this article for a manyfest proofe thereof referre the reader to the. 6. page of the seconde Admonition and the. 53. of the first Admonition and to the whole discourse of both My almost is equiualent to they ▪ searse But whosoeuer shall well considèr the tenour of theyr bookes and the course of their lyfe may easily vnderstande that both I myghte haue leftē oute my almost and they theyr scarse lykewise Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 1. Secondly the Papistes say that we haue no ministerie no Byshops no pastours bicause they
substance euen the principall poyntes where in we differ from them Wherefore this comparison of yours standeth vpon a false grounde For I am fully persuaded that you and they doo the Pope great good seruice and that he woulde not misse you for any thing For what is his desire but to haue this Churche of Englande whiche he hathe accursed vtterly defaced and discredited to haue it by any meanes ouerthrowne if not by forreyne enimies yet by domesticall dissention And what fitter and apter instrumentes coulde he haue had for that purpose than you who vnder pretence of zeale ouerthrowe that whiche other men haue buylded vnder colour of puritie seeke to bring in deformitie and vnder the cloke of equalitie and humilitie would vsurpe as great tyrannie and lofty Equalitie made a cloke for ambition Lordlykenesse ouer your parishes as euer the Pope did ouer the whole Churche For who should be the chiefe man of the segniorie but the Pastor what state and degrée of men soeuer else were in that parishe yea the Prince hir selfe looke their Admonitions and especially the seconde and this booke also and tell me whether it be so or no Wherefore these glorious wordes of yours be but mistes to blinde the eyes of the simple in lyke manner and to the like purpose vsed of the Anabaptistes agaynst Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer and suche like sincere professors of the word In the second edition of the answere to the Admonition of God Peruse the notes that I haue collected not onely out of Bullinger but out of Zuinglius and Gastius also and you shall sée them in all poyntes to vse these plausible pretences and to accuse their aduersaries after the like maner Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. vlt. Heereby it is manyfest that the Papistes and they ioyntly doe seeke to shake nay to ouerthrow the selfe same foundations groundes and pillers of our Churche althoughe not by the selfe same instrumentes and engines Wherefore it is tyme to awake oute of sleepe and to drawe oute the sworde of discipline to prouide that lawes whiche be generall and made for vniformitie aswell of doctrine as ceremonies be generally vniuersally obserued that those which according to their consciences and duty execute them be mainteined and not discouraged Either boldly defend the Religion kind of gouernment in this Realme established or else if you can reforme and better the same for it can not be but that this freedome giuen to men to obey and disobey what they list to speake what they list against whom they list and where they list to breche what opinions doctrine they list must in the ende burst out into some strange dangerous effect The Lord both graunt vnto you that be Magistrats the spirit of gouernment and to all other that be subiects the spirite of true obedience Amen T. C. Pag. 9 Sect. 1. After you haue all to be blacked and grimed with the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Note the mildenesse of the â—an in this section A charitable surmise Papisme those whome you founde cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them You whette the sworde and blow the fire and you will haue the godly Magistrate minister of your choler and therefore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pryde of men and delicacie of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter looke for conscience religion and establishment of the common wealthe muste be pretended What haue you forgotten that which you sayde in the beginning that you accused none but suspected certayne would you haue the sworde to be drawne vpon your suspicions But now you see that they whom you haue accused are nothing like either Anabaptistes Donatistes or Papistes and your selfe moste vnlike to him that you professe to be and that you see that all your sclaunders are quenched by the innocencie as it were by water of those men whome you so haynousely accuse you are to be put in minde of the lawe of God which decreeth that he which accuseth an other if he proue it not shall suffer the punishment which he should haue done agaynst whome the accusation had bin Other similitudes might haue beseemed you better iustly proued The Romanes did nourishe in Capitolio cerâ—yne dogges and geese which by their barking and gagling should giue warning in the nighte of theeues that entred in but if they cried in the day time when there was no suspicion and when men came in to worship then their legges were broken bicause they cried when there was no cause If therefore he haue accused iustly then is he worthy to haue his diet allowed him of the common charges But if otherwise we desire not that his legges may be broken as theirs were but this we humbly craue that if this our answere do not sufficiently purge vs that we may be sifted and searched nearer that if we nourishe any suche monstrous opinions as are surmised we may haue the rewarde of them if we doe not then at the least we may haue the good abearing agaynst suche sclaunderous tongues seeing that God hathe not onely committed vnto the Magistrate the safetie of our goodes and life but also the preseruation of our honest reporte Io. Whitgifte Conuicta impietas dum non habet quod respondeat conuertit se ad conuitia Vngodlynesse being conuicted when she is destitute of a good answere turneth hir selfe to reprochefull wordes but your heate of wordes and forgetfulnesse of dutie and reuerence I passe ouer with silence The multitude of liuings which I haue I do enioye by law and may retayne I thanke God with a farre better conscience than T. C. did one liuing for the space of certayne yeres and would haue done still with all his heart if he mighte haue bin winked at thoughe it were expresly agaynst his othe My pompe is very small my pride of men is but according to my calling it were more for my profite if I had fewer My delicate fare is very simple I haue witnesses inowe of it peraduenture if you were kept to that diet it would not be with you as it is If my iurisdiction be vnlawfull I am content it be reformed it is according to the statutes of the Colledge where I am to the which T. C. hathe bin sworne and to the lawes of the Realme What I heereafter looke for it is harde for you to iudge But I most humbly thanke my heauenly father that in all this storming of yours wherein you haue blowne out agaynst me what you could possibly imagine you haue only vttered your boyling stomacke and not touched me in any thing whereof I néede to be ashamed which surely you would haue done if you could I whet the sworde no otherwise agaynst you than christian charitie and the state of The sword of discipline necessarily called for the Church requireth It is neither the sworde that
Gentils seeke where he dothe not forbidde them to séeke for meate drynke and clothing but to séeke for it too carefully and with mistrust of Gods prouidence as the Gentiles did In lyke maner here he forbiddeth not gouernment either in the ciuil or Ecclesiasticall state but he forbiddeth suche gouernment as the Gentils vsed and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same Touchying your argument I saye it hath two faultes Fyrst it is a fallacion Two faultes in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij for you take it as graunted that the Ciuill Magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer by bearyng dominion whyche I will not simplye graunte vnto you for that is partely oure question Secondly your minor is ambiguous The ciuill Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical by bearing dominion and therfore in that respect your argumente may be also placed in the fallacion of aequiuocation for the worde Dominion may haue diuers significations It may signifye suche dominion as Christe speaketh of in this place that is rule with oppression It maye also signifie the absolute authoritie of a Prince suche as is mentioned 1. Samuell 8. Thyrdely it maye signifie any peculiar office of superioritie and gouernment vnder the Prince at the appoyntment of the Prince as the Diuers significations of the word Dominion authoritie of a Iudge Iustice. Maior c. Laste of all it may signifye any iurisdiction or kynde of gouernment If you take it in eyther of the two fyrst significations your minor is true if in either of the two latter significations it is false For wée graunte that there is greate difference betwixte the dominion of Kings and Princes and betwixte the Jurisdiction and authoritie of Bishoppes Kings haue power ouer lyfe and goodes c. so haue not Bishops Kings haue authoritiie in al causes and ouer all persons withintheir dominions without any limitation if Bishops haue any suche dominion especially in Ciuill causes it is not in the respects they be Bishops but it is from the Prince and limited vnto them Touching theyr names and titles you saye he putteth a difference in these woordes and they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you c. The woordes of the twentith of Mathewe bée these And they that are greate exercise authoritie ouer them In the. 10. of Marke the same woordes be vsed In the. 22. of Luke the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benefici vocantur they are called bountifull or beneficiall whyche I sée not howe you can by anye meanes applye to your purpose For Mathewe and Marke referre thys clause It shall not bee so among you not to anye name but to the ambition and tyrannicall kynde of dominion whyche our Sauioure Christe there reproueth as it is moste manyfeste And therefore thys place of Luke muste also bée expounded by them Neither is this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any suche imperiousnesse that Chryste shoulde forbyd Caluinus hys Disciples the name M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpretyng these woordes of Saincte Luke sayeth thus As touchyng the woordes where Mathewe hath that kings exercise authoritie ouer them in Luke wee reade that they are called bountyfull in the same sense as though he shoulde saye Kings haue plenty of all thyngs and are very ryche so that they maye bee bountyfull and liberall And a little after he sayeth that they doe appetere laudem munificentiae desire the commendation of bountyfulnesse I knowe that certayne of the Kynges of Egypte were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 munifici benefactores bountifull and benefactours and that they were delyghted to bée so called I know also that among the Hebrues theyr Princes were called Munifici liberales per antonomasian But what then if eyther they vaynegloriously desyred that name or were so called when they deserued rather the names of Tyrantes and oppressoures dothe it therefore followe that they be vnlawfull names for suche as maye deserue them The moste that can bée gathered of this place for any thyng that I perceyue is that the Kings of the Gentiles had vayne and flattering titles giuen them béeing nothing lesse in déede than that whiche their names did signifie and so maye it bée a good admonition for menne Howe the wordes Vos autem non sic may be reserred to names to learne to answere to theyr names and titles and to doo in déed that whiche by snche names and titles is signified Nowe then if you will haue Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so wyth you to bée a prohibition to all Christians and especially to Bishops that they shall not ambitiously seeke dominion as the Gentiles dyd vniustly and tyrannously vse their authoritie as they also dyd nor haue names and titles to the whiche they doe not accordingly answere no more than the Gentiles did then I agrée with you But if you will haue Vos autem non sic to restrayne them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is liberal benefactors c. as your interpretatiō agréeth not with the wordes of the other two Euangelistes so doth it not wyth any learned interpreter that I haue read To your argument concerning names and titles I answere as I did to the former Diuers kyndes of names Some names titles are proper to the ciuil Magistrate only as the names of Emperor King Prince Duke Erle c. These names are not giuē to any of the Clergie in this Church to my knowledge some names are cōmon to the Ciuill Magistrate Names common to ciuill and Ecclesiastical persons with Ecclesiasticall persons as certaine names of reuerence of superioritie of office The name of Gratious Lorde is a name of superioritie and of reuerence according to the manner of the countrey where it is vsed and therefore may well agrée eyther to the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons and in many places dyuers are called by this name Lord which is in Latin Dominus for reuerence and ciuilitie whiche haue verie small dominion As for the name of Archebishoppe or Metropolitane that is not proper to any ciuill Magistrate and therfore without the compasse of your argument Thus then you sée that some titles are proper to the ciuill Magistrate some to the Ecclesiasticall and some common to both wherby your maior is vtterly ouerthrowne As for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the whiche you séeme to grouude your argument I see not why it may not be common to all men that shewe themselues liberall and beneficiall There is no man denyeth but that there is and must be great difference betwixt the pompe and outwarde shewe of a Prince and the state of an Ecclesiasticall person bothe in titles and other maiestie and I thinke that he is verie blynde that séeth it not so to be in this Churche of England yet may the Ecclesiasticall person shewe foorth the countenance of his degrée
so bounde that by no meanes we may declyne at any tyme from hys preceptes These places therefore may be aptly alleadged agaynste the pride tyrannie and ambition of the Byshop of Rome whiche seeketh tyrannically to rule and not to profyte but it maketh nothing at all agaynste the lawfull authoritie of any other in any state or condition of men T. C. Page 12. Sect. vlt. Concerning the exposition and sense of that place I agree with you and * Bylike it was fondly alleadged when you do but suppose their meaning suppose that it is quoted of the authours of the Admonition rather to note e ambition of certaine whiche gape greedily at these bishoppricks whiche wee haue to the ende they might be saluted by the name of Lords and honours than to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer another And therefore although these places be against no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alleadged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other againste his tyrannie and euill vsage of himselfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleadged agaynste any other whyche shall fall into the lyke faulte of the Byshoppe of Rome Io. Whitgifte It is manifest that they quote this same place for the selfe same purpose that they do the other there can be no mist so thicke that may darken the eyes of men from séeing it except they séeing will not sée as you do at this time I am glad that you agree with me in the exposition of this place surely in so doing you must also agrée with me in the exposition of the other For as Christ héere doth not forbid the names but the arrogant and ambitious desire of them so doth he not there forbid authoritie and superioritie but the coueting of it and ambitious and inordinate desire of the same And if you well marke the words Christ doth here much more plainly forbid these names then he doth thare those offices of superioritie If any man doth imitate the Byshop of Romes ambition either in office or in name he hathe me as greate an enimie as he hath you But in that you passe ouer with silence these words of mine these places therefore may be aptly alleadged c. you séeme eyther to allow my expositions of the other places also or else you are ashamed of your owne vnfaithful and subtil dealing which before would haue made your Reader beléeue that I had misliked all those godly learned mens iudgments which vse these places against the Byshop of Rome it had bin plaine dealing to haue set downe my words in order as I haue done yours Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 17. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Howe aptly that place of the. 24. of Mathew But if the euil seruant shall say in his heart c. is alleaged let all men iudge I thinke it forbiddeth not to punish such as breake good lawes But Lorde howe these men are beaten which do as they list say what they list that with reioycing therto that is if they be no otherwise beaten than hitherto they haue bin they will not only with schismes actions teare in sunder this Church of Englande but in time ouerthrow the whole state of the common wealth To proue that either we must haue a right ministerie of God and a right gouernment of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp c. or else there can be no right religion c. is alleaged the ninth of Mathew the fourth to the Ephe. and the eightenth of Mat. In the ninthe of Mathew the place they alleage is this Surely the haruest is great but the labourers be fevve vvherfore c. In the fourthe to the Ephe. He therfore gaue some to be Apostles c. In the eightenth of Mat. If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee c. The first place declareth that ministers of the word are necessarie in Christes Churche The seconde that there is diuers kindes and degrees of them And the thirde sheweth an order of correcting secrete sinnes and priuate offences and medleth not with those that be open and knowne to other Now therfore consider to what purpose those places be noted in the margent and how little they proue that which is concluded As for all the rest of the places of scripture that followeth noted in the margent of this Preface I knowe not to what purpose they be alleaged but only for vayne glory to bleare the eyes of the ignorant Subtilty in quoting places only people and to make them beléeue that al that which is written in this booke is nothing else but scripture it selfe They haue delte very subtilly to quote the places only and not to set them downe in playne wordes for by this meanes they thinke that of the most part it shall neuer be vnderstanded howe vnaptly and to what small purpose they be alleaged Io. Whitgifte All this L. C. passeth ouer in silence thereby as I thinke acknowledging it to be true Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 18. This name Puritane is very aptly giuen to these men not bicause The name of Puri ane they be pure no more than were the Heretikes called Cathari but bicause they thinke them selues to be mundiores caeteris more pure than others as Cathari dyd separate themselues from al other Churches and congregations as spotted and defiled Bicause also they suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie T. C Pag. 13. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our fauiour Christ who shal couer al our vnpurenesse and not impute it vnto vs. And for so much as fayth purisieth the heart we doubt not but God of his goodnesse hath begon our sanctificatiō hope that he wil make an end of it euē vntu y e day of our Lorde Iesus Albeit we hold diuers points more purely thā they do which impugne them yet I knowe none that by comparison hathe either sayde or written that all these that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in lyfe than any of those that thinke otherwyse If we saye that in those poyntes whiche we holde from them that we thinke soundlyer than they doe we are ready to proue it if we saye also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the worlde commonly by getting (a) And yet some of you haue a competent number without doing any duetie at them so many liuinges into oure handes as woulde finde foure or fyue good learned able Ministers all the world will beare vs witnesse Other purenesse we take not vpon vs. And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you saye that they are Puritanes whiche suppose the Churche whiche they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
of doctrine by many deliuered is sounde and good yet herein it fayleth that neither the Ministers thereof are accordyng to Gods worde proued elected called or ordained nor the function in such sorte so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought and is of necessitie required Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 34. 35. The proposition that these libellers woulde proue is that we in Englande are so farre from hauyng a Churche rightly reformed accordyng to the prescripte of Gods worde that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For proofe hereof they vse this argnment There be three out warde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen preaching of the worde purely ministryng of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline whiche consisteth in Admonition and correction of faultes seuerely But thys Church of Englande for so in effecte they saye is voyde of all these Ergo it hath not so much as the externall face of a Church To proue that the worde of God is not preached truely they reason on thys sort The Ministers of the worde are not according to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned nor the function in suche sort so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought is of necessitie required And therfore the word of God not truely preached Here All pointes of doctrine pure in this church thankes be to God they alleage not one article of Faith or poynte of doctrine nor one peece of any substance to be otherwise taughte and allowed of in thys Churche for not euery mannes folly is to be ascribed to the whole Churche than by the prescripte worde of God may be iustified neyther can they Nowe howe this conclusion followeth though the antecedent were true let those iudge that be learned The Ministers are not rightly proued and elected c. An vnapt r son Ergo the worde of God is not truely preached howe wicked so euer the man is howsoeuer he intrude hymselfe into the ministerie yet maye he preache the true worde of God For the truthe of the doctrine dothe not in anye respecte depende vpon the goodnesse or euilnesse of the man I praye you howe were you and some other of your adherentes called elected c But to come to the purpose They woulde proue that the Ministers of the worde in this Church of Englande are not accordyng to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned What force and pithe is in their argumentes shall appeare in the seuerall answeres to euery one of them This one thing I muste let you vnderstande that these men seeke to deface thys Churche of Englande by the selfe same groundes that the Papistes doe althoughe by another kynde of proofe For what haue the Papistes else to saye but that we haue no Ministers bycause they be not rightly called and so consequently no worde no Sacramentes no discipline no Churche And certainely if it were well examyned I beleeue it woulde fall oute that the Authors of this Booke haue conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe if they coulde the state both of this Churche and Realme howsoeuer subtilly they seeme to detest Papistrie T. C. Page 23. Sect. 1 2 3. (a) Where do I 〈◊〉 that they say so Where in effecte doe they saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preachyng ▪ and ministring of the Sacramentes is it all one to saye that the worde in the Churche of Englande is not purely preached and the Sacramentes sincerely and discipline seuerely administred wyth thys that the Churche of Englande is voyde of all these Agayne where doe they reason thus that the worde of GOD is not truely preached bycause the Ministers are not ryghtly proued and elected when as they haue not one worde of true preachyng Is it all one to saye it is not purely preached and to saye it is not truely preached Saynte Paule to the A cauill Philipp is gladde that the Gospell be preached althoughe it be not purely but he woulde neuer haue been gladde that it should haue been preached falsely or not truely Againe he inueygheth not agaynst the false Apostles in the Churche of Corinthe bycause they preached the worde vntruely but bycause they vsyng paynted words and affected eloquence and makyng a great shewe of learnyng and tounges dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely so that you see that it is one thyng not to preache truely and an other thing not to preache purely and so you see their reason is not so euill for the want of a good calling maye gyue occasion to saye that the worde of God is not sincerely taughte bycause there is not a lawfull and ordinarie calling For althoughe for the substaunce of doctrine and the manner of handlyng of it they that Sainte Paule speaketh to of the Philipp dyd not faulte yet Saynt Paule sayth that they dyd not preache purely bycause they dyd it of contention or of enuie whyche was no faulte in the doctrine but in hym that taughte Therefore let men iudge howe iuste your wayghtes are that expounde not purely not truely and whyther thys be to confute other mens argumentes rather than to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes I knowe no Papistes reason thus that bycause we haue no Ministers therefore no worde no Sacrament no discipline no Churche For they denie that we haue the worde or Sacramentes bycause we holde not their worde and sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neither any such antecedent or such a consequent For they neuer sayde that there is no Ministerie in England nor yet do euer conclude that there is no word no sacraments no discipline nor Churche For in saying that the face of the Churche dothe not so muche appeare for so the whole proces of their booke dothe declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarce the face of the Churche they graunte that we haue the Churche of God but that for wante of those ornamentes whiche it shoulde haue and throughe certayne the deformed ragges of Poperie whiche it shoulde not haue the Churche dothe not appeare in hir natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she shoulde be prepared to so glorious a husbande as is the sonne of God Say you certaynely and do you beleeue that the authors of this booke are conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe this Churche and Realme Nowe certaynely I will neuer doe that iniurie vnto them as once to goe about to purge them of so manyfest slaunders nor neuer be broughte by the outrage of your speeches to proue that nooneday is not mydnight and therefore as for you I will set your conscience and you togither The reader I will desire not to thinke it a straunge thing for it is no other than hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same religion whiche they dyd as it appeareth in the. 37. of Ieremie whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
Christ and of his resurrection else but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene continually a scholler of our sauiour Christ and therefore fit to teache and to witnesse that which they had seene and whose godly conuersation was notorionsly knowne Besides that albeit those two Mathias and Barsabas were therfore set vp in the middest that the Church in the prayer that was made for their election might by seing them pray the earnestlyer for them yet it was also as much to say that if any coulde obiect any thing against them that he should preferre his obiection And whether they were examined or s the matter is not great neyther when it is sayd that a tryall shoulde be had it is ment that when the parties are famously knowne to those which haue the right of election that there shoulde be alwayes necessarily an apposing and examining so that the sufficiencie of doctrine and holynesse of life for the which cause the tryall and examination is commaunded be knowne and agreed vpon by them that chose it is enough And so these two beyng notoriously knowen and consented of by the Churche to be fitte men myght happely not be examyned but yet the wordes of Saynt Peter declare plainely that in the choyse of them there was regarde had to both their abilitie to teache and honestie of conuersation And althoughe there be certaine things extraordinarie in thys election (b) If all these be extraordinarie what haue you left in that election as ordinary or how proue you the other to be ordinarie more than some of these as that suche a one must be chosen which had been conuersant wyth our sauiour Christ and that there were two put vp for one place and that it was permitted to lottes to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two as if the Lorde shoulde by the lottes from heauen tell who shoulde haue it yet it followeth not to saye that the reste of the things that are there vsed should not be practised in ordinarie callings for as much they will well agree with them And Maister Caluine in the place you alleage saythe that the ordinarie callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles and after sheweth wherein that is in that they were appoynted immediatly of God and by hys mouthe whereby it appeareth that for the residue of those things whych are there mentioned he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections Io. Whitgifte This Replie standeth all by coniectures it is certayne that there was no triall had of them bicause they were sufficiently knowne and therefore the texte without discretion alleaged to proue that there oughte to be a tryall of theyr abilitie to instruct c. If it had bene quoted to proue that suche as were admitted into the function were méete for the same bothe sor their lyfe and doctrine it had bene to some purpose I thynke it necessarye that suche as bée admitted into the ministerie vnlesse they bée verye well knowne shoulde be tryed bothe in learning and lyfe but this place maketh nothing at all for that purpose but rather contrarie for it speaketh of suche two as were well knowne and therefore néeded no tryall so that if wée conclude any thyng of that place it muste bée this that none oughte to bée admitted into the ministerie but suche as be well knowne and néede no tryall There was no other cause of presentyng them than that whyche is expressed in the texte and it is presumption to make the Scripture serue to maynteyn oure contentions agaynste the expresse woords and playn meaning If thys be a rule to be followed it muste be followed wholly for where haue you learned to adde or take from any lawe or rule prescribed in Gods woorde or howe doe ye knowe that this example must be followed in one thing and not in an other what speciall reuelation haue you to make any suche dismembring of this action No doubte thys example is extraordinarie and not of necessitie to bée followed The woordes of M. Caluine are playne that there can be no certaine rule gathered of this example for the electing of ministers bicause the calling of the Apostles doth something differ from the calling of other ministers Chap. 1. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. In the sixt of the Actes mention is made of Deacons only whom you will not allowe to be ministers of the worde and therfore this place serueth not your tourne neyther is there any thing spoken of any tryall but only they are willed to looke out among them seauen men of honest report and full of the holie Ghost and wisdome to be appoynted Deacons T. C. Page 24. Sect. 5. And where you saye that the sixte of the Actes bycause it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the mater me thynke you shoulde haue easily vnderstanded that if a tryall bee necessarie in Deacons whiche is an vnder office in the Churche and hathe regarde but to one parte of the Churche whyche is the poore and is occupied in the distribution of money muche more it ought to be in an office of greater charge whiche hath respect to the whole Churche and is occupied in the dispensyug of the holy worde of God Io. Whitgifte That there shoulde be a tryall of suche as are to be admitted to the ministerie I thinke it moste conuenient as I tolde you before excepte the parties be sufficiently known to such as haue authoritie to admit them but I say that this place of the Acts dothe not proue it both bicause the office of a Deacon by their opinion is altogether distinct from the office of a minister of the woord the one perteyning to the body the other to the soule the one occupied aboute moneye the other in the woorde and also for that there is in that place no mention made of any triall That place rather proueth that whyche before was noted A t. 1. that suche onely shoulde be appoynted to that office as bée knowne by good experience to be fitte for suche a function Tell me one worde in that texte that signifieth any such tryall as the Admonition speaketh of Therfore I say againe as I sayd before that suche as be well knowne néede no farther tryall as both that example Act. 1. and this also Act. 6. manifestly declareth Chap. 1. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. Sect. 1. The rule of Saincte Paule in the. 1. Timo. 3. and Tit. 1. is to bee The booke of ordering ministers iustified concerning examination folowed And the booke of ordring ministers and deacons set forth and allowed by this Church of England requireth that whosoeuer is to be admitted into the order of the ministerie should so be tried examined and proued both for learning and life as S. Paule there requireth Reade the booke with indifferencie and iudgement and thou canst not but greatly commend it If any man neglect his dutie in
places titu de ministris verbi And M. Bullinger 1. Tim. 4. Touching this supposition of yours that none should be admitted into the ministerie except Tra t. 4. c p. the same haue some certayne cure committed vnto him occasion will be giuen to speake in another place Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 3. 4. Agayne they are demaunded which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie whome for the most parte they neuer see nor heard of before as one that came of one day vnto the towne and goeth away the next Further they haue no reasonable space giuen them wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation and haue some experience of his soundnesse in teaching and discretion and iudgement to rule his flocke But if as soone as euer it be said that those that are straungers to them shoulde obiect against them no man stand foorth to oppose against them foorthwith he is made a minister And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering ministers faultie touching the triall and examination of the ministers which selfesame things are likewise of the triall of the Deacon And so you see that besides the faultes of those that execute the law that there be faultes in the lawes themselues and therefore the cause is truly assigned although you see it not Io. Whitgifte There is none that ought to be admitted by any Bishop but such as haue dwelte and remained in his dioces a conuenient time No time of admitting except it be of some singular person whose habilitie is not doubted of is appointed but the same is before a sufficient time notifyed in the notablest places of the whole dioces chiefly to this end and purpose that there may be resorte thither by suche as haue any thing to obiect againste any that is to be admitted at that time into the ministerie neyther ought any to be admitted except he bring a sufficient testimoniall of his good behauioure from that place where he hath had his abode and therefore if they come not it is a token that they haue nothing to say or if they haue to obiect and do not the fault is in themselues they may if they will I told you before that he may not teach before he be therevnto admitted nor rule a flocke before he haue one committed vnto him and therefore of necessitie he must at the least be admitted into the ministerie of the worde before they can giue any iudgement of him So that in déede though you haue vsed many words yet haue you in effect said little or nothing and the slendernesse of your reasons against the booke togither with the inconueni nces that must of necessitie follow hath procured a great credite vnto it and it still remayneth true that I haue answered to the Admonition that is that the fau t s that be are in the persons not in the law Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 37. Lin. 1. Agayne if some be admitted into the ministerie either void of learning or lewde in life are all the rest for their sake to be condemned Or is this a good argumente some be admitted into the ministerie without triall therefore none is lawfully admitted into the ministerie or some ministers be vnlearned and euill Ergo there is none good I thinke you wil not denie but that there is now within this Church of England as many learned godly graue wise and worthy Worthy ministers in England ministers of the word as there is in any one realme or particular Church in all Christendome or euer hath bin heretofore T. C. Page 25. Sect. 5. 6. 7. And what meane you still to vse this fighting with your owne shadowe for where are the words or what be they that condemne all the ministers for some that say all the ministers are vnlawfully admitted for some or that there is none good bycause some are bad If there be no suche words as carrie with them any such sense then you do wrong to your brethren If there be words that declare the cleane contrary then all men see what you be which although you often faulte in yet I am loth so often to name and charge you with it When it is said that learned and vnlearned are receiued it is euident that they condemne not all The Lord blesse and increase an hundreth fold the godly wise learned graue ministers of this Church and bycause these words seeme to rocke vs asleepe and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines and desolations of the Church I must tell you that two thousand able and sufficient ministers which preach and feede diligently and carefully the flocke of Christ were hard to be found in this Church which haue bin notwithstanding found in the Church of France by the estimation of those which know the estate euen vnder the time of the crosse where there were no such helps of Magistrates and appoynted stipends as God be praysed we haue And agayne you are to be put in mind that a great number of those were bredde in king Edwards days so that I feare me a man neede no great Arithmetike to count the numbers of suche able ministers as the late yeares haue brought foorth And yet I am well assured that if the ministerie were reformed and woorthy men were sought for there are great numbers of zelous and learned men that would lay their hands to serue this kind of building by the ministerie For besides numbers that the vniuersities would yeld which sighe for the repairing of the decays of the Churche to helpe forwarde so greate a worke the Innes of Court and other the Gentrie of the Realme Galene and Iustinian would bring their tenthes and as it were pay their shotte in this reckening Io. Whitgifte Their words be playne for they say whereas in the old Churche a triall was had c. now by the letters commendatorie of some one man c. whereby they set this time as contrary vnto that bycause some haue bin admitted without triall and therefore make that fault generall which is particular and in very déede condemne all for some If it were not so why shoulde either they or you condemne the rule and not the persons only why should they say that we haue no right ministerie why should the second Admonition from the beginning to the end so raile vpon all the states and degrées of ministers and preachers in this Church which do not consent with them in disturbing the Church and opposing themselues against lawfull orders and lawes Looke Fol. 32. of the. 2. Admonition especially and so foorth where they speake in most vnchristian maner And though these mē in thys place say learned and vnlearned yet doth it not follow that they condemne not all of an vnlawfull calling and of not being tried and examined as well in life as learning But what néede you make such ado in cloking a matter to
Churche of England but by such as haue bene Massemongers and now zealous godly learned preachers T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. 3. But you aske what they saye to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Rid ey I praye you when did these excellent personages euer slide from the Gospel vnto Idolatrie which of them did euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so (a) Euen the A monition which I confu e for it speaketh generally and maketh no such distinct blinded you that you can not distinguishe put a difference betwene one that hauing bene noussed from hys youth vp in Idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betwene him which hauing knowledge of the Gospel afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I knowe none that haue bene Preachers of the Gospell and after in the tyme of Queene Mary Massemongers which now are zealous godly and learned preachers if there be any such I thinke for offence sake the Churche mighte better be withoute them than haue them You saye God in that place sheweth howe greeuous a synne Idolatrie is in the Priestes especially And is it not nowe more greeuous in the Minister of the Gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater and if the synne be greater shoulde it haue nowe a lesse punishment than it had then howe shall the faulte be esteemed greate or little but by the greatnesse or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lorde commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And this commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for ours Io. Whitgifte The examples of M. Luther Bucer Cranmer c. do sufficiently confute the Admonitiō The exāples of Luther c. are directly against the Admonition the words wherof be these In those dayes no Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish priests were appoynted to be preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish Massemongers men for all seasons king Henries priests c. here you sée that they doe not onely condemne suche as once knowing the truth haue afterwards departed from it but suche also as haue at any time sacrificed why shoulde they else name king Henries priests seing it is euident that the masse was not abolished in King Henries time so that I haue better cause to aske what hath so blinded you that you could not vnderstand their meaning the words being so plaine or rather that you would in that point wilfully blind your self others also I know some that being preachers of the Gospell after in the time of Queene Mary massemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers of as good fame and credit with godlie men as any be in this land without offence be it spoken neither be the quiet humble members of the Churche offended with them but reioyce at their conuersion and praise God for them But you frame your doctrine according to your affection towardes certaine persons Doctrine framed according to mens persons as y e maner now a dayes of some is for this doctrine hath béen taught generally that no Idolatrous priest shuld remaine in the ministerie these examples of Luther Bucer c. haue béen lightly reiected as repugnant to the conunaundement of God but now being better aduised remembring that some in that case be great promoters of your opinions this mitigation forsooth must be made that such as were preachers in king Edwards time c. they I meane your fautors were professors though they were no preachers they were also in Quéene Maries time Massemōgers now they be preachers yet all is well for you haue the law in your hands to coyne what opinions you list to adde to them or to take frō them what you list to apply not apply them to whom and when you list euen Popelike The sinne of Idolatrie is nowe as great an offence as it was then but the external ciuill punishment for the same is in the power of the Magistrate being a portion of Tract 2. cap. 6. the. 5. diuision the iudiciall law the necessitie wherof is wholy abrogated as I haue proued before Those precepts in Deut. were giuen to the Iewes both for the iudiciall ceremoniall law also they be giuen to vs for the law of faith good maners only for we are clearely deliuered from the ceremonies of the law the iudicials wherof this in Ezechiel is a portion are not enioyned to Christians vpō any necessitie but left to the discretion of the ciuil Magistrate And therfore I haue said nothing either of those places of Deut. or of this of Ezech. which I wil not by learning good authoritie iustifie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. vlt. God in that place of the prophet Ezechiel sheweth how greeuous a sinne idolatrie is especially in the priests but he prescribeth no generall rule of secluding them from their ministerie if they falling afterward repent T. C. pag. 27. Sect. 4. You worke a sure way which to mainteine your corruptions denie the scripture which speaketh against them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs This is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the end wherwith we may eyther defend our selues against heretikes or be able to strike at them Io. Whitgifte I neither denie the scriptures nor clip them neither can my doctrine open the way to any heresie but I speake of them in this point as all learned and sounde writers doe olde or newe if I do not disproue me not by words but by reasons and authorities Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 1. Besides this there is a great difference betwixte the seueritie of the lawe and the lenitie of the Gospell betwixte the externall regiment of the Churche before Christ and the Church after Christ neither can you make the one in all poyntes correspondent to the other Likewise betwixt the declining of those Priests which was wholly from God to Gentilitie the falling of ours to Papistrie which confesseth the same articles of fayth that we doe although not sincerely It is one thing wholly to worship false Gods an other thing to worship the true God falsly and superstitiously But among all other things I woulde gladly knowe wherein king Edwards priests haue offended you It is happie you let Queene Elizabeths priests alone I maruell whose priests you are T. C. Page 27. Sect. 5. 6. Wheras you say there
so that that reason may shewe what Aaron thought of it and this what was the opinion of the people I would haue you to deale sincerely in alleaging of the scriptures You put me ouer to the treatises of godly newe wryters which doe refuse this distinction c. But you neither name those wryters vnto me nor let me vnderstande where to finde those treatises whiche maketh me suspecte that you neyther knowe whose nor where they be but the matter is not greate I doe as muche mislike that distinction of the Papistes and the intent of it as any man dothe neyther doe I goe aboute to excuse them from wycked and without repentance and Gods singular mercy damnable Idolatrie But yet doe I saye the Idolatrie bothe of the Iewes and of the Gentiles for the causes by me alleaged to be muche greater For there Three kindes of Idolatrie Martyr in Iud. 2. Musculus in Lo. com in expla 1. praecept are thrée kyndes of Idolatrie One is when the true God is worshipped by other meanes and wayes than he hathe prescribed or woulde be worshipped The other is when the true God is worshipped togither wyth false Gods 2. Regum 17. The thirde is when we worship false Gods eyther in harte and mynde or in externall creatures liuing or dead and altogither forget the worshippe of the true God All these thrée kindes are detestable but the first is the least and the laste is the worste in the whiche kinde the Israelites sundrie tymes offended as is manifest in the places before mentioned The Papistes worship God otherwyse than his will is and otherwise than he hathe prescribed almoste in all poyntes of their worship they also giue to the creature that whiche is due to the Creator and sinne agaynst the first table yet are they not for ought that I can see or learne in the thirde kinde of Idolatrie and therfore if they repent vnfaynedly they are not to be caste either out of the Churche or out of the ministerie The Papistes haue little cause to thanke me or to fée me for any thing that I haue spoken in their behalfe as yet you sée that I place them among wicked and damnable Idolaters My defense is of those that haue bin Papistes and be not and for no other for them I speake my conscience according to my poore knowledge take it as you please Of Ministers learning of Catechismes Chap. 3. Admonition The thirde Then (p) 1. Tim. 4. II they taught others nowe they muste be instructed themselues and therfore like yong children they (q) Ministers of London 〈◊〉 ioyned to learne M. Novvels C techisme muste learne Catechismes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Pag ▪ 41 ▪ Sect. 1. 2. God be thanked there is a great number of Ministers that can teach others and may be your scholemasters in al kinde of learning except you haue more than you vtter in these treatises If they that finde some want of learning in themselues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned either of their owne accord or by commaundement of their Ordinarie reade and learne godly and learned Catechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Catechisme whiche you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that learned and necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men best learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth chapter of the first to Timothie doth not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 2. 3. What shoulde become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fit to be Ministers and to teache other than he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouersighte to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were muche to compell them to reade it And if a man would haue dec amed agaynst the ignorance of the moste parte of the ministers three whole dayes togither he coulde not haue sayde more agaynst them than that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion Howe knowe you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision beeing also placed there * It followeth euen as the rest of your argu ments do for it is your own and no mans else But howe followeth this It is meete that ministers shoulde learne euery day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Catechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Catechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them Is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the Minister than to learne Catechismes or dothe a man learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade things sometime to recorde the things that he hathe learned For bicause they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Catechisme you conclude of their wordes that they woulde not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing whiche is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them Io. Whitgifte God be thanked the people néede not pyne awaye for lacke of foode they haue the Scriptures read vnto them they haue also profitable and fruitef ll Homilies they haue the Sacramentes rightly ministred and publyke prayers in a knowne tongue and sometyme God sendeth vnto them some well disposed preacher further to instructe them and the Curate is not so slothefull and carelesse but that he will also communicate with them that whiche he himselfe hathe by diligent reading learned Catechismes and that especially doe conteyne the groundes of religion and the principall poyntes of faythe and good lyfe and therefore not vnfitte or vnprofitable for any man to reade I know not what weightier matters they can learne than those that be conteyned in that booke excepte you thinke nothing waightie but suche matters as you nowe contende for and for the which you so muche disturbe the peace of the Churche It is well done to enioyne them to learne it and it shall be no disgracing no not to your selfe to reade it We doe not denie but that there be vnlearned Ministers in Englande and we thinke it no discredite at all to enioyne them to learne suche thinges as are moste profitable bothe for them to knowe and to teache vnto other To reade and
you shall Euseb. Zuinglius find that the Apostles did appoint and ordeyne Iames to be Byshop of Nierusalem But I will not now stand vpon this matter I shal haue more occasion to speake of it hereafter in the meane time this whiche I haue saide is sufficient to satisfie your request for the Apostles time Touching that of Luke that it was done Church by Church if you meane the ordering of ministers by Paule and Barnabas it is answered before where I haue shewed that it maketh againste you if you vnderstande by euery Church those Churches where Paule and Barnabas were togither then do you expound Church by Church well else not But this is not materiall Election of ministers by the people not generall in th 〈◊〉 of Cyprian Now that the electing of ministers by the people was not generall in Cyprians time I proue by Cyprians owne words li. 1. epist. 4. where he speaking of electing by the people saith quod apud nos quoque ferè per prouincias vniuersas tenetur which also is obserued with vs and almost throughout all prouinces c. In that he saith it was almost in euery prouince he playnly signifyeth that there were some prouinces wherein this Cyprian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. manner and forme of electing was not vsed When I say that the consente of the people was required in many places euen to Cyprians time I do not denie but that it was also required after Cyprians time neither do I speake any otherwise in that poynt than Musculus Musculus hath spoken in his common places ti de verbi ministris where he saithe thus haec forma electionis ad Cypriani vsquè tempora in ecclesijs durauit c. This forme of election remayned in the Churches vntill Cyprians time I knowe it was both before and after Cyprians time in many places but that is not the question for it partly is and shall more at large hereafter be declared that it was also otherwise both before and after Cyprians time but our question is whether it ought to be so at all times or no at this time especially in this Church of England You say it appeareth that Cyprian in his 4. epistl of his 1. Booke vseth it not as a thing indifferente c. Surely if Cyprians wordes be well considered you will be founde not The place of 〈◊〉 examined to haue reported truly of him for he with other Bishops answering the 〈◊〉 that was demaunded of them touching Martialis and Basilides whether seeing they were conuicted of heynous crimes they might still enioy their office and minister vnto the Lord first declareth out of Exod. 19. Leui. 21. c. of what integritie and holynesse those ought to be that serue the altar and celebrate diuine sacrifices Likewise they shew that such precepts must be obeyed and héede taken that none be chosen into the ministerie but suche as be blamelesse signifying by the way how greatly that people doth offend that doth communicate with a sinfull priest and consenteth to the vniust and vnlawfull office of him that is placed ouer them shewing out of the Prophet Osee and the booke of numbers what punishment is due vnto them that be contaminated with the sacrifice of a prophane and vnlawfull priest where vpon he bringeth in these words propter quod plebs obseque s praeceptis dominicis deum metuens a peccatore praeposito separare se debet nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere cum ipsa maximè habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de diuina authoritate discendere vt sacerdos plebe praesente sub omnium oculis deligatur dignus atquè idoneus publico iudicio ac testimonio comprobetur c. For which cause the people obeying the commaundementes of the Lorde and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a wicked gouernoure not to cōmunicate in the sacrifices of a wicked priest for so much as they especially haue authoritie either to choose those priests which be worthy or else to refuse them which are vnwoorthy The whiche thing also we see to proceede of the authoritie of God that the priest should be chosen before the face of all the people being present and that he which is sit and worthy should by the publique iudgement and testimonie be approued as the Lord commaunded Moses in the booke of numbers saying take Aaron thy brother and Eleazer his sonne for Aaron shall be gathered to his fathers and shall dye there God commaunded the priest to be appointed before the whole sinagogue that is he declareth that the ordering of priests ought not to be but sub populi 〈◊〉 is conscientia by the knowledge of the people standing by that the people being present vel detegātur malorum crimina vel bonorum merita praedicentur c. either the faults of euil mē might be bewrayed or the desertes of those whiche are good might be commended and that that ordering might be iust and lawfull which shall be examined by the voices and iudgement of all VVhich thing was afterward obserued according to the rule of God when as Peter spake vnto the people concerning the choosing of a bishop into the place of Iudas Where the words of Cyprian and the other Bishops be plaine that the ordering of ministers ought to be in the presence of the people to the intent they may obiect any thing against them if they can but not that it ought to be by their voyces and election the which the example that he vseth of Eleazer Num. 20. and the words that he reciteth out of the first of the Acts plainly declare for though Eleazer was placed in Aarons roome in the presence of the people yet had they no voyces in hys election No more had they in the election of Matthias though it were in theyr presence That also whiche followeth in the same epistle dothe proue this to be their true meaning for alittle after it is said propter quod diligenter de traditione diuina c. VVherfore it ought diligently to be obserued and holden as proceeding from the tradition of God and the obseruation of the Apostles the which also is reteyned almost thoroughout all prouinces that to the intent orders should be rightly celebrated all the next Byshops of the same prouince should assemble vnto that people to whome a gouernoure is to be appointed and that the Byshop should be chosen in the presence of the people which dothe fully know the life of euery one c. so that Cyprians meaning is to haue the people present at the ordering of ministers that if they know any crime in them they may obiect it if not with their silence allow of the parties for as the law saith ta iturnitas pro consensu habetur silence is taken for a consent And to this purpose serue the places that he vseth Numer 20. Act. 1. and
ministers was conuenient and profitable now in this state of the Churche it were moste pernicious and hurtfull T. C. Pag. 32. Sect. 6. 7. You say that howsoeuer in the Apostles tyme. this vse was of hauing the consent of the church in the choyse of their Pastor or Bishop nowe in this state it were moste pernicious and hurtefull Wherein see howe (a) This is an v aduised collestion vnaduisedly you condemne the churches of Geneua of all Fraunce of certayne of the Germayne churches which keepe this order But you alleage your reasons therfore those are to be considered bicause they come so rare For your maner is that if you can haue but one writer new or olde of your side or which seemeth to be of your side you runne away with the matter as though you had scripture reason Doctors and all I will therefore then take a view of your reasons when as I shal haue briefly set downe those reasons wherby the perpetuall equitie reasonablenesse conueniencie of this order that the church should haue a stroke in hir ministers election may appeare Io. Whitgifte I condemne no Churches that haue appoynted any order for the electing of their Pastors which they thinke to be agreable to their state and moste profitable for them for therefore I say that no certayne maner or forme of electing ministers is prescribed in the Scripture bicause euery Churche may doe therein as it shall séeme to be moste expediente for the same That maye be profitable for the Churches of Geneua and Fraunce c. whiche woulde be moste hurtefull to this Churche of Englande And therefore I saye that howsoeuer this popular kinds of electing was conuenient or profitable in the Apostles tyme yet in this state of the Churche of Englande it woulde be pernicious and hurtfull You say my manner is that if I can haue but one writer c. Truely I doe not stande so muche in my owne conceyte neyther am I so well persuaded of my owne witte and vnderstanding but that I greatly estéeme the opinions of learned men and I thinke my selfe to haue reason sufficient when I haue good and learned authoritie which is grounded both vpon Scripture and reason And to put you out of doubte if you be offended bicause I so doe you must be offended still For I had rather alleage the authoritie of learned men whiche is grounded bothe vpon the Scriptures and reason than to sticke to mine owne phansie bothe without authoritie and reason as those commonly doe whiche are desirous of innouations and haue their heades filled with new deuises But you will take a view of my reasons c. and I will first examine your reasons seuerally and then answere for my owne An examination of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie c. of elections by the people Chap. 5. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 32. Sect. 8. It is sayde amongest the Lawyers and in deede reason which is the law of all nations confirmeth it Quod omnium interest ab omnibus approbari debet That which standeth all men vppon shoulde be approued of all men Whiche lawe hath this sense that if it may be it were good that those thinges whiche shall binde all men and whiche require the obedience of all shoulde be concluded as farre as may be by the consent of all or at least by the consent of as many as may be gotten And therefore it draweth muche the obedience of the subiectes of this realme that the statutes whereby the realme is gouerned passe by the consent of the moste parte of it whilest they be made by them whome the rest put in trust and choose for that purpose beeing as it were all their actes Io. Whitgifte You vse for your purpose a rule of the lawe whiche you doe not vnderstande nor The first reason examined rightly interprete for where as this word Debet importeth a necessitie you expound it as a word of courtesie saying if it may be and it were good to be concluded when as the lawe sayth Debet approbari it ought to be allowed And reason wil the same that where many men haue interest in any thing or haue any thing in common whereof euery of them hathe a priuate interest right or propertie there euery mans consent should be had as if a house or any other thing be common among halfe a dosen men by purchase discent or gifte and fiue of them would burden that thing with any charge or doe any acte to preiudice the sixte man it shall not binde him without his consent for there this rule is true Further more a thing is sayde omnes tangere to perteyne to all whiche is common either Pluribus vt vniuersis or else Pluribus vt singulis In the first kinde are those things that pertayne to bodies politike as the body of a whole common wealth Citie Borough Towne Colledge Churche c. Wherein as the Lawyers say this rule hathe no force The reason of the lawe is bicause it béeing almoste an impossible thing for all men in suche a body to agrée in one and there béeing amongst men for the moste parte as it were a naturall inclination to dissent and disagrée one from an other there should neuer any law or order be made if euery singular mans consent should of necessitie be had It is therefore sufficient in suche places and matters if the lawes statutes and customes of the place be obserued Wherefore the rule hathe onely place in the seconde that is in thinges that are This law can not take holde in the election of ministers common Pluribus vt singulis to many seuerally that is wherein euery man hathe a proprietie and particular righte as it is properly in landes possessions c. in the whiche the Minister can not be comprehended for it were a greate absurditie that in the election of the minister euery singular mans consent shoulde of necessitie be required for then if any one frowarde man in the whole parishe were disposed to withstande the election it coulde neuer be ended and this muste necessarily come to passe if you will builde vpon this lawe And yet in suche cases this law admitteth this generall exception if there be especiall The lawe as mitteth exceptions reason and cause why that thing whiche concerneth many shoulde be done by some other way rather than by the consent of them whiche haue interest And these are taken for good reasons in this case Fyrst if it be rather behouefull for the common wealthe and Churche of God to doe that whiche concerneth a number some other way rather than by the consent of euery particular man Secondly if it be for the more quiet estate of the common wealthe not to haue their consent Thirdly if it be better for the parties themselues to haue it otherwise prouided Last of all if it be agaynst the lawes of God or of the customes and lawes of any Countrey If
I were a Lawyer I could tell you that this law admitteth many exceptions What is more expedient for all men than to haue a good Prince good Councellors good Iudges c. and yet I thinke it were moste pernicious to haue those offices committed to the election of the people But what néede I stryue with you in this matter For if those things that be concluded by Parliament be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme bicause the peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires and other Burgeses as in déede it is whiche you also confesse then haue you no more to saye in this matter for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons c. is allowed and graunted by Parliament and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Churche of England are chosen by the consent of the people nay which is more of the whole Realme bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule whiche the whole realme in Parliament hath made and bounde them selues vnto But by the way if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it and be transferred to the ciuill state it will be founde very daungerous and tootoo muche sauouring of popularitie as in déede the whole course of your doctrine is Chapter 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate Mayre or Bayliffe or Constable of euery towne whiche things if they haue groundes in ciuill affayres they haue muche better in Ecclesiasticall For it is muche more vnreasonable that there shoulde be thrust vpon me a gouernour of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe depende than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon whome he were thrust were fooles or madde men or children without all discretion of ordering themselues whiche as I will shewe can not agree with those that are the Churche of God and are to haue a Pastor For they of the Churche of God althoughe they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpentes in the wisedome especially whiche is to saluation and howe (a) No man keth vi e a ouÌ„t of the people of God but you partly of 〈◊〉 partly of popular affection would haue it seeme so thereby to 〈◊〉 hatred agaynst vs. vyle accompte soeuer you will make of them they are the people of God and therefore spirituall and foorthwith those of whome sainct 1. Cor. 2. Paule sayth the spirituall man discerneth all things Io. Whitgifte The disorder of suche popular elections hathe bin suche the contentions moued Elections by the multituâ—e are for y e most parte tumultuous in them so great the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious the partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes friendes or landlords c. so vntollerable to be short the lacke of iudgement discretion in many of them so apparant that that maner of electing vpon great coÌ„siderations hath bin altred in diuers places desired to be altered in others also by al those that are wise discrete that wishe for quietnesse good gouernment Neither is it true that the election of those officers which you name is euery where in the people In the best ordered Cities and townes it is otherwise and experience dothe teache that those offices whiche are in the Princes bestowing and some other to whome she committeth the same are the best bestowed and vpon the moste worthyest persons as Bishoprikes the offices of Iudges Iustices c. In ecclesiasticall affayres it is muche méeter that suche as haue knowledge zeale and care for the people shoulde place ouer them a méete and fitte Pastor than that the choyse of him should be committed to the multitude whiche is not onely for the moste parte ignorant but carelesse in suche matters yea and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection as friendship hatred feare c. I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe bycause they be voyde of reason ChristiaÌ„ men eepe For as Chrysostome saythe Oues sunt sed rationales They are sheepe but suche as are indued with reason And god dothe at one tyme or other if they be his open hys truthe vnto them and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixte true and false doctrine in those things that doe pertayne to their saluation But bicause God dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them are they therfore alwayes voyde of affection and errour or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion is it therefore common to all or to the moste parte In déede if you speake of the inuisible Church which is onely of the electe then is it something that you say but if you speake of the visible Churche whiche is a mixture of good and euill and wherein the euill are the greater number then hath your saying no probabilitie in it And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place 1. Cor. 2. that he can not erre in matters of religion Scripture vn aptly alleaged by T. C. as you may that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their pastors for he dothe alleage this texte for himselfe to the same purpose but the meaning of the Apostle is this that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God and is able to discerne the truthe from falshood You can no more proue therefore by this sentence that the Parishes can not erre in choosing their Pastors than the Pope may doe that himselfe generall Councels and the Churche can not erre and surely the more I consider the matter the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this texts Chapter 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2. Moreouer reason and experience teacheth that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop that the Churche loue him and reuerence him For the contempte and hatred of the minister for the moste parte standeth not in his owne person but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine which he teacheth But the Minister that the Churche desireth it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth and of the other side hateth and contemneth him that is thrust vpon them therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospell that the minister come in by their consent Likewise the people muste by S. Paule hys 1. Tim. 4. rule followe the good example of the Minister but men wyll not likely followe their examples whome they loue not nor loue them which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes Therefore it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the minister that he be with the consent of the
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
Maxentius and Licinius did then persecute persecution in Constantines time And therefore you see you are greatly deceyued in your accompt Now if it be as lawfull for vs to vse M. Caluins authoritie which both by example and writinges hath always defended our cause as it is for you to wring him and his words to things which he neuer inent and the contrary whereof he continually practised then this authoritie of yours is dashed For M. Caluine saith whereas it is saide in that councell that the election shoulde not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing Vpon the Acts. 16. some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouide that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were chefe in the election of the Churches And euen the same order would we haue kept in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we woulde haue the libertie of the Churche preserued whiche Christ hath bought so deerely from all tyrannie So do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre the barbarous confusion and disorder Io. Whitgifte Where do those that write the Centuries suspecte that Canon why note you not the place there is not one worde tending to that end in that place where they speake of this Councell Neyther as I thinke are you able to shew any suche thing affirmed by them and it is the first time that euer I either red or heard it doubted whether thys were a Canon of that councell or no. In the. 4. Cent. col 435. I find these words variant ab ac consuetudine mirum qua veritate constitutiones Concilij Laodiceni quae ordinationes iudicio multitudinis fieri probibuerunt The constitutions of the Councel of Laodicea which forbad Cent. 4. the ordeyning of ministers to be done by the iudgement of the multitude do varie from this custome of electing by the people it is maruel by what truth But no mā can hereof gather that they doubt whether this Canon be a bastard or no. Only they doubt whether this decrée was made according to the truth The general Councel at Cōstantinople which is called Synodus 6. did both allow this councell and ratifye it It is not greatly materiall at what time this Councell was holden Neyther dothe it follow that bycause this decrée was now made against such elections of the people therefore the people had before this time in al places interest in electing of ministers for it may be that some claimed this interest and moued the people to contende for it then as you do now and therefore the Synode might vpon that occasiō make this determination as the like might be made at this time in this Churche of Englande against such parishes as take vpon them the election of their Pastors as you before affirmed Page 3. some to do and yet we could not therevpon truly conclude that before the time of this prohibition the election of ministers was either generally or orderly cōmitted to the people in this Church of England I haue not in any place said that this order of choosing the minister by the voyces of the Church was but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution neither yet that they could clayme it of dutie in either of these times or that it was then generall and in all places for I haue before shewed the contrary And where you thinke that I will not say the Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines The Church in persecution in Constantines time time though it be not materiall yet must I tell you that I thinke it was for euē then Maxentius and Licinius did persecute and continued in persecuting by the space of 13. yeares after Constan. began his reygne and it is saide of Licinius that he killed many thousandes of Christians I haue not at any time wrung M. Caluines words to any other sense than he hymselfe hath written them if it be otherwise make it knewne for I haue delt playnely and set downe his words so haue not you In his Institutions cap. 8. Sect. 63. thus he writeth of this Councell Est quidem illud fateor c. And surely I confesse that it was Caluine of the Councell of Laodicea vpon great reason decreed in the Councell of Laodicea that the election shoulde not be permitted to the multitude for it scarcely at any time happeneth that so many heads shuld with one consente determine any thing And that saying is almost true that the vnstable multitude is deuided into contrary factions c. Then doth he tell what order was obserued in elections firste the Cleargy only did choose then did they offer him whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senate and chiefe rulers who after deliberation did confirme the election if they liked of it if not then did they choose another whome they thought to be more méete In the ende the matter was propounded to the multitude rather to know their desire and require their testimonie than to gyue them any interest either of choosing or refusing this is the summe of Caluines meaning and this he saith was the meaning of that Councell which I say is in ffect to take away the election from the people Your note in the margent must be corrected for Caluine hath no suche thing vpon the. 16. of the Acts but the like he hath vpō the. 14. howbeit the words of the Councel be playne quòd non sit permittendum turbis electiones eorum facere qui sunt ad sacer dotium prouebendi Concil Laodicen Can. 13. That it ought not to be permitted vnto the multitude to make elections of them which should be preferred to the ministerie And there can be no doubt of the meaning of the Councell bycause it appeareth in the. 12. Canon that they would haue Byshops preferred to ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other Can. 12. Byshops Libertie and tyrannie be too common in your mouth It is no tyranny to restraine the people from that libertie that is hurtfull to themselues and must of necessitie ingender contentions tumults and confusion Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 3. But if Councels be of so great authoritie to decide this controuersie thē the most famous Councell of Nice wil strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistl that it writeth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that (a) This is 〈◊〉 of the Clearg not of the people you should haue power both to choose any man and to giue their names which are worthy to be amongst the Cleargy and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the Church and if it happen any to dye in the Church then that those which were last taken to be promoted to the honoure of him that is
Churches consent shoulde be had in the election of T. C. vrgeth the Apostolicall forme and yet bringeth in that which is not Apostolicall the minister c. but how shall we know that you meane as you speake for you haue no warrant so to doe in any Apostolicall election or in any forme vsed in the Apostles time Wherefore either you must breake that rule which you would haue both to be perfit and perpetuall for all times and states or else doe you but dissemble with the Magistrate and minde nothing lesse than that you say you would do But as good neuer a whit as neuer a deale the better for the Magistrate muste The absurdities of the deuise of T. C. confyrme them or reiecte them if he be godly and take not from the Churche hir libertie in choosyng First what if the Magistrate be vngodly or who shall iudge whether he be so or no or howe shall the Magistrate knowe when the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man who shall complayne to the Prince of his vnfitnesse if both the Ministers and people thinke him fitte or who shall iudge of hys fitnesse or what priuiledge shal the Magistrate haue hereby when he muste haue one of the peoples electing whether he will or no or else muste the Church the distitute Surely the Magistrate should haue a good office to be so troubled with suche elections in this Churche of Englande In good sadnesse tell me doe you not sée the absurdities of these youre fonde and troublesome deuises or are you so blynde that you perceyue not how farre you would swarue from the forme which you saye was vsed by the Apostles when you giue to the ciuill Magistrate the confirmation of ministers which they in their time kept to themselues Musculus hath in most playne manner taught the selfe same thing that I haue done as it may appeare to all those that will vnderstand but you of purpose woulde blind both your selfe and others That Byshops haue authoritie to admitte and ordeyne Ministers Chap. 7. the firste Diuision Admonition Nowe that authoritie is giuen into the handes of the Bishop alone who by his sole authoritie thrusteth vpon them suche as they many times as well for vnhonest life as also for lacke of learning may and do iustly dislike Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. That Bishops haue authoritie to admitte Ministers which is heere denyed it is plaine by that which is written 1. Tim. 5. manus citò ne cui imponas Lay thy handes rashely on none These wordes Ambrose Chrysostome and all learned wryters for the moste part doe say to be an Admonition to Timothie that he oughte to be circumspecte in appoynting of Ministers And to Titus chap. 1. Paule saythe that he left him at Creta vt constituat oppidatim presbyteros that he shoulde appoynt Ministers in euery towne This Hierome and others doe expounde of the authoritie that Titus had in placing ministers in euery Church T. C. Pag. 39. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe you woulde proue (*) A wilfull de prauing of the Answere that this election of Ministers by one man was in the Apostles tyme. But you haue forgotten your selfe whiche sayde a little before that this election by the Churche was not onely in the Apostles tymes but also in the time of Cyprian nowe you saye otherwyse And if the election of the minister by the Churche agree so well with the tyme of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate howe commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no suche Magistrates that Saint Paule woulde haue the election by one man and not by the Churche Besides that if (*) Who hath sayde so this be Saint Paule hys commaundement that the Byshop shoulde onely choose the Minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the Churche to be varyed by tymes for this is a flat commaundement Thus you see you throw downe wyth one hande as fast as you build with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifth of the first to Timothie I saye first that Saynt Paule writeth to Timothie and therefore instructeth him what he shoulde doe for his parte in the appoynting of the Minister If he had written to the whole churche of Ephesus he woulde lykewise haue instructed them howe they shoulde haue behaued themselues in that businesse If one doe write vnto his friende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he choose none but suche as are meete shall anye man conclude therevpon that none hathe to doe in that election but he to whome that letter is written Then I say further that Saynt Paule attributeth that vnto Timothie that was common to more with hym bycause he beyng the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe whyche thyng I haue proued by diuerse examples bothe oute of the Scripture and otherwise before And euen in thys imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that whereas Saynt Paule 2. Tim. 1. sayth in the seconde Epistle that Timothie was ordeyned by the putting on of hys handes vpon hym in the firste Epistle he sayth that he was ordeyned by the putting on of the handes of the 1. Tim. 4. eldership So that that whiche he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth wyth moe Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betwene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that althoughe thys mighte agree to Timothie alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Byshop maye doe so For Timothie was an Euangelist which was aboue a Byshop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to saye the greater maye doe it therefore the lesse maye doe it The superiour therefore the inferiour If you were at any coste with producing your witnesses you shoulde not be so wyse to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrysostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed for who denyeth that Sainte Paule doth not gyue warnyng to Timothie to be circumspecte if you meane to vse theyr testimonie to proue that he onely made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothie for there is nothing there but agreeth also to this place And as for Hierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to (*) As if there were any 〈◊〉 thing affirmed proue that to the Byshop onely doth belong the right of the election of the Minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it can not be so taken of the sole election of the Byshop the Churche beyng shut
this doth that we retaine in the Churche of England at this day and a great deale more Chap. 8. the. 3. Diuision The reasons why the people haue bene secluded from such elections and so ought Why the people haue bene nowe ought to be debarred from the election to be are these 1. Fyrst the meruailous contentions that haue bin in suche kinde of elections by the sinister affections of the people béeyng easily moued to diuision and partes taking vpon euery light occasion Examples wherof there be infinite almoste in euerye Contention about the election of ministers election as it may enidently appeare to euery one that hath but lyghtly runne ouer any Ecclesiastical historie When Damasus was chosen Bishop of Rome there was one Vrsicinus a Deacon Plat. in vita Damasi sette vp against him and the contention was so vehement betwixte them and the rage of the people so intemperate that they fell from voyces to blowes in somuch that there was many slaine euen in the place of election What sedition was there moued in the election of Boniface the second when Platina Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishoprike the people were so deuided that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus The lyke brawle was in the elections of Conon Sergius Paulus 1. Constantinus Platina and almost in euery election made in that seate as it is euident in suche stories as especially entreate of the liues of the Bishops of Rome The lyke sturre there hath bin in other places also especially after that the churches were deuided with heresies and sects At Constantinople after the death of Alexander their Byshop there was a maruellous vprore for his successor some desiring to haue Paule a Catholike and some Macedonius an Arrian this contention was so vehement that the whole citie was disturbed and many slaine on both parties yea euen the Emperours officer that was sent to appease it Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. The strife that was in the same place after the death of Atticus Philip Prochis and Sisinius striuing for the Byshopricke at one time Socrates testifyeth lib. 7. cap. 26. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9. the same doth he write also to haue bin betwixt Philip and Prochis after the depriuation of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35. After Endoxius remoued from Antioch to Constantinople there was in Antioch great strife for a successor as the same Sozo sheweth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these wordes as in such things it commeth to passe that ther are diuers contentions and seditions betwixt the Cleargie and betwixt the people Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9. declareth the like tumultes to haue bin aboute the election of Flauianus and he addeth atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò non propter fidem sed propter Episcopos scinditur And so the Church of Antioch is agayne deuided not for matters of faith but for their Byshops I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funerall oration at the buriall of his father Nazianzene what great trouble and daunger was at Cesaria in his time about the election of their Byshops The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why August in tom 2. epi. 110. both he and his predecessor in their life times did prouide to themselues successors as it is there manifest Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus about the election Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11. of their Byshop the people being deuided into sundry factions in somuche that Chrysostome was himselfe enforced to appoint vnto them one Heraclis his Deacon The same Authoure lib. 7. cap. 7. testifyeth the like contention to haue bin in Alexandria Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5. whilest some desired Timothie an Archdeacon othersome Cyrill Euagrius li. 2. ca. 5. writeth thus Cum antem bic Proterius c. when this Proterius was placed in the Byshops seate of Alexandria there arose a greate and intollerable tumult among the people which were tossed with diuers sentences for as it often falleth out in such cases some would haue Dioscorus agayne others stucke stoutly to Proterius so that many incurable mischieses were committed For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth that the gouernour of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria and saw the people wholly to set them selues agaynste the magistrates and that when the garison of souldiers woulde haue kepte backe the sedition they beate them backe with stones into the temple whiche was in times past called the temple of Serapis then the people comming thither with speede tooke the temple and burned the souldiers quicke But whēthe Emperour vnderstoode herof he sent thither two thousand new souldiers who hauing a prosperous winde passage arriued the sixt day after at the great citie of Alexandria and so raged against the wiues and daughters of the men of Alexandria that much more mischiefe was now wrought than before To what further inconuenience this intollerable contention came afterwards the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8. the people at large and declareth how easely they are moued to contentions and tumultuous dealing how willingly led by any factious person that pretēdeth liberty c. In the end he sheweth how villanously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Byshop What should I speake of that hurlyburly that was in Millains before the election Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio of Ambrose whereof Theodo speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6. I shal desire y e learned reader to peruse Chrysostome in the. 3. booke that he writeth de sacerdotio wher he speaketh of this matter plentifully declareth y e maruelous partialitie the vntollerable cōtentiōs that y e people vsed was y e cause of in such electiōs If I were disposed to heape vp examples I could fill a large volume but these being almost in the best time of the Church vnder Christian Princes manifestly declare what intollerable inconuenience ensueth such elections as are committed to the people especially in these matters 2 My seconde reason is that if suche elections shoulde be committed to the people the iuill Magistrate who hath the chéefe gouernment of the Churche and to whome the especiall care of religion doth apperteine should not be able to procure such reformation nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion as he is when he hath himselfe the placing of Bishops and such as be the chiefe of the Cleargie for the people The election of ministers by the people an impedimēt to the ciuill magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters who are commonly be t to nouelties and to factions and most ready to receyue that doctrine that séemeth to be
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
wordes of Christ receyue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes so euer ye remitte they are remitted ▪ c. he dothe shewe the principall duetie of a Minister and assureth hym of the assistance of Gods holy spirite if he labour in the same accordinglye You call them his new creatures these be but words of s urrilitie to be hissed at not to be answered T. C. Page 44. Sect. vlt. To say that the Byshop may as well say receiue the holy ghost as to say the wordes vsed in the Supper or to say that the sinnes of those which do beleeue are forgiuen is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as farre as Yorke and London For there are commaundementes to the Ministers to doe that which they doe and heere is none and there the Minister doth not commaunde that the bread be the bodie of Christ but he sayth that it is Neither doth he commaunde that sinnes should be forgiuen but pronounceth in the behalfe of God that they are forgiuen It is not lawfull also that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or encrease of God his giftes vpon him that is ordeined but to commaund that he should receiue it is meerely vnlawfull For these wordes receiue the holy ghost are the imperatiue mode and doe expressely signifie a commaundement And so the Bishop may as wel say to the sea when it rageth and elleth peace be quiet as to say receiue the holy Ghost And if you thinke it so good reason to vse this in the making of ministers bicause you vse the words of our Sauiour Christ why may not you as well blow vpon them as he did For seyng that our sauiour Christ confirmed his word there with a Sacrament or outwarde signe and you thinke you must therefore do it bicause he did it you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe or Sacrament of breath whereby the faithe of him that is ordeined might be the more assured of such giftes and graces as are requisite in his function I heape not vp here the iudgement of writers you knowe I thinke it might easily be done if I liked to follow that waye Io. Whitgifte Christ vsed these wordes this is my bodye in the celebration of his Supper but there is no speciall commaundement that the Minister should ▪ vse the same and yet must he vse them b cause Christ vsed them euen so when Christ did ordeine his Apostles Ministers of the Gospell Io. 20. he sayd vnto them ▪ receiue the holy G ost c. which words bicause they containe the principall duetie of a Minister and do signifie that God doth poure his spirit vpon those whom he calleth to that function are most aptly also vsed of the Bishop who is Gods instrument in that businesse in the ordeyning of Ministers S. Paule speaking to Timothie 1. Tim. 4. saythe Neglecte 1. Tim. 4. not the gifte that is in thee whiche was giuen vnto thee by prophecie with the laying on of the handes of the eldership In whiche wordes the Apostle signifieth that God dothe bestowe his giftes and spirite vpon suche as be called to the ministerie of the worde whereof imposition of handes is a token or rather a confirmation and therfore sayth M. Caluine that it was not a vayne ceremonie bicause God dyd fulfill with hys Cal. 1. Tim. 4. spirite that consecration which men dyd signifie by imposition of handes And surely as that is no vayne ceremonie though it be done by men so these be no vayne words though they be spoken by men Neither dothe the Bishop speake them as thoughe he had authoritie to giue the holy Ghost but he speaketh them as the words of Christ vsed in the like action who as I sayde before dothe moste certaynly giue his holy spirite to those whom he calleth to the ministerie And surely if any patterne eyther in calling or ordeyning of ministers is to be followed this of Christ is to be followed especially and it is not vnlike but that the Apostles when they layde on their hands vsed the same words bicause as I haue sayde laying on of handes is a signe or rather a confirmation of the same That which you speake of commaunding is a méere cauill you knowe in your conscience that there is nothing lesse ment To recite the wordes of Christ in the name of Christ in the selfe same maner that Christ dyd speake them is as lawful in this action as it is in the Supper for the bread is not the ministers body but the sacramente of Christ his body and yet he sayth Take and eate this is my body So in reciting Gods commandements we say Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me and yet we meane not that we are their Gods but we speake the words of God in his person and in the selfe same maner forme that he hath lefte them vnto vs. But it is nowe no maruayle thoughe suche as wyckedly forsake their calling doe also impiously deride and iest at the manner and forme thereof Christ when he sayde to the sea peace be quiet shewed a myracle to confirme his diuinitie but when he sayde Receyue the holy Ghost c. he dyd institute a ministerie which shoulde be vsed by man and therefore there is no similitude betwixt these two Christ when he breathed vpon them dyd an action proper vnto him selfe for he thereby signified that he had authoritie to giue vnto them his holy spirite and that the same spirite dyd not only procéede from the father but from him selfe also when he spake these wordes he made a perpetuall promise that all suche should receyue his spirite as from time to time were by him called to the office of the ministerie I thinke you woulde surely vse some authoritie of wryters héere as you doe in other places if you had any but I suppose you haue not one that misliketh this forme as it is vsed in this Churche of Englande I knowe they doe iustly condemne the foolishe imitation of the Papistes who followe Christ in breathing But that there is any great misliking of these words Receyue the holy Ghost except only when they speake of the papisticall abusing of them I can not perceyue Of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision The Admonition The ninth Then euery pastor (x) Act. 0. 8. Eph. 4. 11. Titus 1. 5. 1. Pet. 5. 1. had his flocke Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 50. Sect. 2. To proue this you alleage the. 20. of the Acts the. 4. to the Ephe. the first to Titus the. 5. chapter of the. 1. of Peter which places declare that there were Pastors whiche had flockes but they proue not that euery Pastor had a flocke neuerthelesse howe so euer you proue it true it is that if he be a Pastor he must haue a certain flock for therein doth a Pastor differ from the rest of the degrees of ministers in Christes Churche mentioned in the fourth chapter to the Ephes But you
as the other yet so often as that we remember ▪ that too rare and seldome celebrating it argueth a mind too too much forgetfull of the vnspeakable benefyte of our redemption and argueth also that we are farre behind the primitiue Church in zeale which did celebrate it euery Saboth I say beside the preaching of the worde and ministring of the sacramentes there is required of hym that he should admonish priuately and house by house those that are vnder his charge 20. Actes Io. Whitgifte Certaine it is that the charge of a Pastor is great and that he which doth the best must confesse and say that he is but an vnprofitable seruant and yet if he occupy hys talents be they mo or be they fewer and gaine with them more or lesse he hathe a mercifull master who will embrace him with mercie and will accept of his seruice And therefore though he be much inferioure to Salomon in wisedome to Ioseph in councell to Paule in learning and to Iosua in actiuitie yet may he be a faithfull seruant Matth. 25. and heare of his Lord and master Euge serue bone fidelis c. It is wel done good seruant and faithfull If you should thus streightly deale with the Pastors and leaue them no consolation you should not follow our sauioure Christ his mildenesse and mercie But let the bitternesse of your speaches go and let vs come to the weight of your reasons you say that there is required of the Pastors preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments priuate admonition that y e preaching of the word ministring of the sacramēt of Baptisme ought to be continuall and priuate exhortations likewise therfore the Pastor may not be absent Touching y e preaching of y e word I haue spokē before something it must be according y e to cōscience discretion of the Pastor who hath to cōsider what is best for that cōgregation wherof he hath y e charge both for the often preaching for the maner of preaching also The sacraments maye be administred by other than by the pastor as they were in the Apostles tyme. 1. Cor. 1. Act. 10. Priuate exhortation must also be vsed as occasion serueth according to the discretion of the minister But I meruayle that you saye the ministryng of the sacrament of Baptisme ought to be continually c. Baptisin ministred but once in the yeare You knowe that in Victor his tyme it was celebrated but once in the yeare at Easter And in Tertullians tyme at Easter and Pentecoste and in many Parishes in Englande there is no such dayly néede of administring that Sacramente To conclude both the Sacramentes maye bée as well ministred by an other if occasion serue And therefore of all other reasons this is the slenderest Sainct Paules meaning in the. 20. of the Actes is not that he dayely went into their houses to exhort them but that he did so as occasion serued Chap. 1. the fifte Diuision T. C. Page 47. Sect. 3. Now tell me howe this can be done profitably without a diligent marking and looking into their manners How can either publike preachings or priuate admonitions haue their effect and working vnlesse the word of God be applyed according to the disposition or state of that people vnto which it is preached And vndoubtedly hereof it commeth that the word of God is no more effectuall in this realme than it is for bycause it is preached hand ouer head without knowledge and vnderstanding the estate of the people For so oftentimes the promises and glad tidings of the gospell of our Sauioure are preached vnto those that being before secure in their sinnes are after the hearing of the promises rocked into a dead sleepe thereof and they that are ouerthrowen with the conscience of their sinne and confounded in themselues are by the sharpnesse of the law and hearing of the iudgement of God broken into peeces driuen to desperation And so likewise the people are taught sometimes how to leade their liues in honest conuersation when all that doctrine falleth to the ground bycause they haue no knowledge of Christ nor of faith in him and to be short it is as much as if eyther the surgeon should apply his plaister or the Phisition his medicine when they neyther know of the wound or disease of their patients But this knowledge of their estate cannot be withoute a continuall abode amongst them therefore a continuall residence is necssary Io. Whtgifte The Apostles and other in their time did not long continue in one place to learne A man may profyte them by preaching whome he knoweth not ▪ the peoples manners and yet did they muche preuaile by preaching neither is it so hard a matter to know the peoples manners and conditions though a man be not perpetually resident among them The word of God his name be praysed therefore hath bin effectuall in England and numbers are by the same conuerted from superstition blindnesse and ignorance to the true knowledge of God But this is an old and vsuall obiection of the Anabaptists against the Church of Christ that in their Churches there is a manifest amendmēt The vsuall obiection of y e Anabaptists of life but in other Churches which seeme to professe the gospell there appeareth no such frute that the gospel is preached but no man the better This I say is the slaunderous speach of the Anabaptists against those Churches from the which they haue deuided themselues and it is very oft vsed by you You must thinke that there be Pastors and Preachers in England that vnderstand the state of the people and know what discretion to vse in their sermons and exhortatiōs as well as you can teach them But this is most true that as you thinke none learned but your selfe so do you also iudge all men to lacke both wit add discretion but your selfe And here in this place haue you taken vpon you this censure most confidently I will not say arrogantly In the end of this diuision you conclude thus the knowledge of the estate of the people cannot be knowne without a cōtinual abode with them therfore a continual residence is necessary You must proue the Antecedent for it is false The Apostle knew so farre as it was The Pasto may know the estate of the people without a con tinuall abode amongst them necessary for him to knowe the Romaines the Corinthians Galatians and other Churches to whome he wrote and yet was he not continually resident among them ▪ And so did the other Apostles and Preachers whiche were not resident in any one place and yet a preacher may do good in preaching among them whome he knoweth not for it is God that directeth him in his words and matter And for as muche as he cannot but knowe that euery congregation consisteth of diuers mindes and affections therefore excepte he be voyde of discretion he will so moderate and
whiche they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lorde pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no * knowledge Qzee 6. But let vs heare your reason (a) It is youre owne reason there must be reading in the church therfore there must be ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There muste be breaking of bread and distributyng of the cuppe in the Church and pouring on water therfore whosoeuer is able to breake aloafe of bread or to lift a cup of wine or to poure on water on the bodye of the chylde may be made a minister And did you neuer reade y t there were readers in the Church when there were no reading ministers But of that of reading of the scriptures prayers in the Church there wyll be a fitter place to speake afterward where it shal be shewed how vniustly you surmise these things of them ▪ Touching Homilies shal be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is giuen Io. Whitgifte Sainct Paule 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. sheweth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor ought to haue but he doth not say that if none can be founde or not a sufficient number in whome all these qualities do concurre that then the Church shal rather be destitute of ministers than haue suche for there were in his time that swarued from this rule and yet was he glad they preached Of the ministers of this Churche of England though diuerse be ignorant yet inaye they by studye and diligente readyng of the Scriptures Catechismes Homilies and other godlie and necessarie bookes so profyte in knoweledge that althoughe they bée not able publikely to preache yet maye they bée able priuately to exhorte aud otherwyse also by Readyng the Scriptures and Homilies according to the order appoynted greately profyte the people of God But what should I contende with you in this matter Thys Churche of Englande in this poynt professeth nothing that is not allowed by the generall Confession of the Churches in Heluetia from the whiche I thinke you will not dissente That Confession as I tolde you before hathe these woordes VVe condemne all vnmete ministers not indued with giftes necessarie for a shepheard Confess Heluet that should feed his flock howbeit we acknowledge that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheardes in the olde churche did sometimes more profite the churche than the greate exquisite and fine or delicate but a little to proude learning of some others VVherfore we reiect not nowadays the good simplicitie of certain so that they bee not altogether vnskilfull of God and his worde There is nothing in that 6. of Ozee that serueth your turne You say that I reason thus There muste bee readyng in the Churche therefore there muste bee Ministers that can doe nothyng else You knowe what is wrytten Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur c. The mouthe that speaketh lyes slayeth the soule c. I woulde it were not so vsuall with you My argumente is this that for somuche as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this churche of England in al places therfore there may be reading ministers that is such ministers as by reading the scriptures other bookes apointed vnto them may profit y e people instruct them for reading is necessarie in the Church c. This is my reason That which you vse is a child of your own begetting it is none of myne as the Reader can not choose but perceiue The reason that foloweth of breaking bread and distributing the cup. c. is vsed but for a iest which ought not to be in serious matters therfore I leaue it to them that are disposed to laugh when they should rather wéepe I know there were readers of olde in the Churche but they had not authoritie to administer the sacramentes as our ministers haue and of necessitie must haue and Tract 9. ca. 2. the. 2. deuision lawfully may haue also as it shall be hereafter declared Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 7. I dooe not vse to maintayn the places which are quoted although they be truely alleadged for the (*) Nay it is bycause you can no for you wāt no good will causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of saint Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if this be a good reason y e the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie bicause in y t same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing followed the ministerie but for a time then the comandement of S. Iames * that the elders of the Church should Iames. 5. pray for those that are sick is now no commaūdement bicause putting on of hands and anoynting of them that they might recouer their health hath no place and by this meanes you wyll pull from vs as many places of the newe testament as you did before of the olde Io. Whitgifte You would no doubt maintey all their places if you could for the quotations be the substance of that booke the thing that most persuaded the Reader which credited al things there written without examination thought it must of necessitie be true being so confirmed by the scriptures And surely you could not haue greatlier condemned the authors of that Admonitiō than in suffring so many quotations of theirs to passe without defense For what wickednesse can there be greater than to abuse the Scriptures in maynteyning of sects and errours The place of Luke is not answered the words of the texte be these and he sent Luke 9. them to preache the kingdome of God and to cure the sicke c. No man liuing can cōclude of this place the one more than he can do the other your words be but your owne There be other places a number that be more generall than this to proue preaching by this was peculiar and proper to the disciples as the whole circumstances of the place declare for they are also commaunded to take nothing with them in their iorney neither staues c. To preach is perpetuall but it can not be gathered of this place that none ought to be admitted into the ministerie but such as can preach bicause it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles as the other circumstāces do proue The commaundement of Saincte Iames is generall for he telleth what all sicke men ought to doe and the ministers lykewyse that resorte to the sicke and therfore though the anoynting wyth oyle whiche was a signe of the gift of healing bée taken away bicause the gift is ceased yet doth praying remayne still and is perpetuall and not onely proper to some ministers of the Churche but common to all Wherfore the places be not lyke the one béeing spoken peculiarly to the disciples the
other generally to all ministers Oflicences to preache Chap. 3. Admonition And if any be o well disposed to preache in their owne charges they may not withoute my Lordes licence Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3. YOu here finde fault that if a preacher be disposed to preache in Not to preac without li ▪ cence his cure he may not do it without my Lordes licence Where the word of God is professed Christian magistrates gouern there it is mete that no man should take vpon him any function except he be by the Magistrate to whom it doth appertein thervnto admitted And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypocrites heretikes schismatikes other euil disposed persons whiche study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church to occupie the people with their factions it is necessarie that none should be admitted to preache in any place without he be thervnto licenced by the Bishop who ought to haue a diligent care in that matter I suppose you are not of that mynd that men maye nowe in this Church vnder Christian magistrates preach without licence it hath always bin the opinion of wise learned godlie men that since the Apostles tyme none wer ordinarily called to the office of preaching but such as were called of God by man only Anabaptists and some other secte of heretikes teache the contrarie T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. What dealing is this to bring mē in suspition of y t which they neuer thought of as though there were any word y t founded to this y e a man should put himself into the office of preaching without the approbation of those (*) A doubtful saying men to whom it doth perteyne Their complaint is that those which are ordeyned Pastors and therfore to preach can not do it without further licence as if a man shoulde be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth him bindeth him hand foote that he can not do it vnlesse he will lose him The bishops inhable him to teach point him a place to teach in yet they wil not let him teath ▪ vnlesse he haue a further licence It h be an heretik or schismatike or suspected of any such thing ▪ why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffred to be so much as a reader n y ◠churche nd bicause you could not answer this therfore you set vp a fansie of yours to confute And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉 and you make triumphes where there is no victorie They wil say vnto you y t not only vnder a godly magistrate but not in y e time of persecution any man ought to ake vpon him any function in y e church ▪ vnlesse he be ther vnto called by mē except he haue a wonderful calling which is rare must be iligently examined by them which haue it 〈◊〉 nder pretence of the spirite of God whom they make author of their calling it fall out y e 〈◊〉 be but their own he long affection that hath thrust thē in so far they are from the frensy of Anaba tists which you by a confutation of y e which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with Io. Whitgifte This Repl e cōsisteth partly of equiuocations partly of 〈◊〉 suppositiōs For where you say y e no mā shuld put himself into the office of preaching w tout the approbation of those men to whō it doth apertein you speak ambiguously therfore you must explicate what you mean by those to whō it doth apertein whether y e people seniors as you cal them or y e bishops or y e ciuil Magistrate or such to whō y e ciuil Magistrat doth cōmit y e iudging of such matters For y e Auabaptistes confesse y e they must be called of their churches but they deny y e authoritie of the ciuil magistrat herein the authoritie of such also as he doth 〈◊〉 for y t end purpose Again you here suppose y t no man may preach out of his owne cure therfore being once admitted o preach there he nedeth no further licence ▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preache except he haue 〈◊〉 to be hort that 〈◊〉 ▪ heretikes schismatikes may be known foorthwith 〈◊〉 being suspected by and by remoued out of the ministerie ▪ all which suppositio s bēe vntiue and therfore this Replis full of greate absuraities Their meaning is playne that though there be iuste cause why the Bishoppe should inhibite them from preachyng bothe for theyr contentions and also for their errours yet woulde they preache whether the Byshoppe wyll or no for the case is theyr owne They were admytted to preache in theyr cures and elsewhere so long as they vsed them selues modestlye quietly and taught sounde doctrine but after they began to deuide the Churche and make contention in it they were restrayned from preachyng vntill suche tyme as vpon their submission and reformation they shoulde be there vnto admitted agayne hinc illae lachrymae this is the matter and hereto you answere ne gry quidem Of the apparell of Ministers Tract 7. The causes why they refuse the apparell examined Chap. 1. the fyrst Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. 3. The cappe the surplis and tippet are not the greatest matters we striue for whych notwithstandyng hath bene enformed to the Churches beyonde sea to the ende that the iudgementes of some myghte be the easlyer had agaynst vs. Howbeit we thinke it an attyre vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell to weare and the Surplis especially more than the other two bycause suche hurtefull Ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they doe approche nearer the seruice ▪ or worship of God Io. Whitgifte Yet in the beginning suche was youre pretence neyther was there any thing else that you contended for as it is well knowne to all men that had to deale with you or hearde of you I am certainly perswaded that if the Churches beyonde sea did fully vnderstande your procéeding together with the state of thys Churche of Englande that they woulde as bitterly write againste you and as willingly condemne you as euer they dyd the Anabaptistes But to your reasons agaynste the apparell Chap. 1. the second Diuision T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 4. The causes why wee are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hande * This assertion is contrary to your practise Monumentes of idolatrie may be vsed if they haue any profite bycause that we thinke any pollution so to sticke to the things themselues as that the wearyng of them had any suche power to pollute and make vncleane the vsers of them Neyther yet only bicause the Papistes haue superstitiously vsed them but bycause they hauing bene abhominably avnsed by them haue no vse nor profyte in those thinges or endes wherein and wherevnto they are nowe vsed And further that
hath not knowledge is by my example edi ied or strengthened to weare a Surp sse wherof he can tel no ground why he should weare it and so sinneth agaynst his con and for this cause S. Paule concludeth that that which a man may o in respect of him selfe may not be done and is not lawfull to be done in respect of other Io. Whitgifte If to weare a surplis were an offence to the weake or if there were not manifest The weake are not offended but they which accōpte them selues most strong groundes in Scripture suche I meane as commaunde obedience to superiours to proue the wearing of the surplis to be lawfull then were it some thyng that you saye But seeing suche onely be offended therewith as accompte themselues most strong and condemne other of infirmitie séeing also that obedience to Magisirates in such indifferent things hath manifest groundes in scripture and to doubt of obedience in suche matters is in eff cte to plucke the Magistrate his sworde out of his hand this reason hath not so muche as any similitude of probabilitie in it Is there any minister of the Churche for of suche only is the Surplis required that will rather bée moued to weare a surplis by the example of an other than by the consideration of his duetie towardes the lawe and 〈◊〉 of the Churche by due authoritie in a lawfull and indifferent thing appointed you might make the same reason serue to plucke downe the Churche the Pulpit the Belles yea to ouerthrowe all orders and all lawes in things indifferent whiche all haue the same grounde of obedience that the surplis hath In the Conf ssion of the Dutche Churche in London whiche is allowed by the Things indifferēt chāge their nature be g cōmanded or forbidden Confess Ec les Belgiog rman Churche of GENEVA and diuers other reformed Churches whereof I haue made mention before it is thus written of things indifferent Things otherwyse indifferent of themselues after a sorte chaunge their nature when by some comma ndement they are eyther commaunded or forbidden bycause neyther they can bee omitted contrarie to the commaundement if they be once commaunded neyther done contrarie to the prohibition if they be prohibited as it appeareth in the Ceremoniall lawe So that the grounde why a man shoulde weare the surplis béeing an indifferente thyng as you co fesse it to be can not be vnknowne to any but suche as know not the ground of their obedience towardes authoritie It is true that in some things indifferent a man must haue respect to the weakenesse In what kind of 〈◊〉 thinges we ughte to haue a resp ct of the we ke of his brother and absteyne from doing that whiche he might lawfully doe rather than to off nde his brother But that is in suche indifferente thynges as bée not by any lawe commaunded or forbidden but lefte frée to euery man to do or not to doe As if to weare the Surplis were by no lawe commaunded but lefte to euery mannes owne disposition then surely if there were any weake offended with the wearyng of it I oughte to absteyne for the weake hys sake but béeyng by lawfull authoritie commaunded to weare it if I should refuse so to do I shoulde offend against the Magistrate and against God who by his Apostle hath giuen thys commaundement omnis anima potestatibus c. let euery soule be subi ct to the higher power Rom. 1 c. which is to be vnderstanded in all things that are not against God And therfore if any man be offended with me in so doing the offence is taken it is not giuen Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. vlt. Agayne for the stubborne Papists they take herevpon occasion to speake euill of and to bl spheme the truth of the gospell saying that our religion cannot stand by itselfe vnlesse it lea e vpon the staffe of their ceremonies and perswade themselues that those were very well deuised by their Popes that they that are their nimies to their religion cannot be without And herv on they ake occasion to hope that their other trumper e and baggage will in the nd come in againe which ca seth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse and shut their eares vnto the tru h which possibly they would heare if all hope of bringing in of their Poperie were cut off Io. Whitgifte This is but a mere fancy for first it was brought into the Church before theyr Popes whome they hold vpon inuaded that seate as it is afterwards declared Secondly they be not matters that they make any greate accompt of Thirdly they know fullwell that we could be without them and that we but only for obedience sake do not much estéeme of them Wherefore this is an argument framed only vppon light coniectures But beit all this were true shall we for their fancie or fonde iudgement refuse to do that which is lawfull which we may d and which we are bound to do Or in making orders for the Church must we enquire what their opiniō wil be Then plucke downe Churches ▪ c. for of them they make a greater reck ning than they do of the surplisse or any other such like matter I thinke verely that there is not one Papist in England that doth take occasion vpon any thing reteyned in this Church to hope that their other trumperie and baggage will in the end come in gayne neyther is there any cause in respect of them why they should so hope and if they do yet I doubte not but that they shall hoppe without that hope But a man may imagine if he will that there is a man in the Moone with a tree on his backe c. and you cannot let him Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 53. Lin. 5. And let it be obserued that throughout the realme there are none that make such clamours and outcries and complaints for these ceremonies as they and those that they suborne They pretende I confe se the Queenes maiestres Imunctions and 〈◊〉 vnto them but who is so blinde as seeth not that they haue another meaning For I appeale vnto the consciences of all that knowe them whether they do it for any obedience towards hi maiestie whose death should be a thousand times better newes vnto them than hir graces mariage Io. Whitgifte The more is the pittie that they should haue suche i st cause of clamoring and that The clamors of Papists should mo the ministers to more circumspection those which should teach them obedience to God and their Prince be examples to the contrary A subtill and craftie Papist wil be glad of any cause of quarelling the more circumspect therefore ought the minister to be in taking héede lest he giue iust cause of the same But there be honest godly and zelous men also that cannot abide s che disorder and contempt whome peraduenture you would gladly straine with the note
signe of purenesse that is in the Minister and therefore all this that you The forme of apparell may put a man in minde of 〈◊〉 dutie write in confuting of that myght haue bene cutte off and very well spared But if Master Martyr shoulde haue sayde that it maye be a signe of the purenesse that oughte to be in Ministers you are to séeke for an answere as yet Christ beyng puritie it selfe néeded nothyng to put hym in mynde thereof but man beyng impure may haue externall instrumentes to byd hym as it were remember what he ought to be I thinke that seuerall kyndes of habites be appoynted to men of diuerse degrées and calling partly for that purpose and if a man in graue apparell vse hymselfe lightly or wantonly we vse commonly to saye suche behauiour becommeth not that apparell meanyng that hys habite and apparell oughte to put him in mynde of modestie and grauitie and thys doth argue that euen méere ciuill things maye haue significations whiche ouerthroweth an other argument of yours whereby you woulde proue that the apparell muste of necessitie be an ecclesiasticall ceremonie bycause there is attributed vnto it some signification Whether it be a matter meare ciuill or meare Ecclesiasticall or mixt of both is not now the questiō neither yet whether the Church may be confounded wyth the common wealth or no and therfore I will not here deale with anye of them leaste I shoulde confounde both the matter and the Reader onely I speake of your argument whiche is confuted by common vsage for seuerall habites in the vniuersities signifie seuerall degrées in learnyng seuerall kynde of apparell seuerall callings and functions in the common wealthe and thys apparell doth put euerie man in mynde of hys duetie and yet they are not longer to be reteined than the Magistrate and the lawes doe permitte but are alterable accordyng to tymes places and persons No man sayth that there is vertue in such garmentes or power to worke godlynesse and therefore your pretie iestes builded vpon that ground are vayne and toyish and your topicall place not rightly vnderstanded for it is ment of such things quae per se aliquid faciunt Euery thing that signifieth any thing is not a sacrament for then were Matrimonie asacrament and so were laying on of hands and such like The Papistes vsed vnlawfull signes and attributed vnto them life and death for they made them necessarie to saluation Images whether they be grauen paynted or wouen are agaynste the expresse commaundement of God and therefore these be vnapte similitudes neyther woulde you haue vsed them if you had well considered M. Martyrs wordes The same I answere to your allegation of holy water and holy bread they be pseudoadiaphora and haue annexed vnto them opinion of saluation and of worship all which we vtterly remoue from these orders Your answere to M. Martyrs M. Bucers authoritie is sure but not greatly commendable T. C. refuseth y e iudgement of learned men whē he cannot otherwise anwere them In mens wri tings the circumstances of time and place must be distin guished for it is the easiest but the worst answere that can be to denie the authoritie of wise learned famous men that without reason onely by cauilling These be their knowne writings and they be written of purpose vpon these controuersies according to the circumstances of time place and person and therefore if any thing in their publike writings séeme to be against their iudgements here distinguishe the tyme and other circumstances and I doubt not but they will well agrée with themselues Interim you doe your endeuour to deface them Chap. 7. the ninth Diuision Admonition They haue the shewe of euill seing the Popishe priesthood is euill Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 240. Sect. 2. When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthood then How apparell is a signe of euill and how otherwise were they euil euen as the thing was which they signified but now they be the tokens the signes of the ministers of the worde of God which are good therfore also they be good no man in this Church of England is so ignorant but that he knoweth this apparell not to be nowe the signes of a Massing Priest but of a lawfull Minister wherfore it is a shew of good euen as it is in the like manner in the vniuersities a shewe and signe of degrees in learning and therefore a shewe of good excepte you will also condemne degrees of learning Neither is it any straunge matter for the selfe same thing in diuerse respects and at diuerse times to be the signe both of good and euill The bels were a signe of euill whē they were rung to cal to Masse and to stay stormes and tempests the selfe same bels are now a signe of good when they be rung to Sermons and other godly actions The Churches themselues were a signe of euil whē Idolatrie was committed in them false doctrine preached now they be a signe of good when God is rightly worshipped in them his worde truely preached Many such examples I could bring but a reasonable mā can gather of these sufficiently to confute your error Futhermore when we be willed to absteyne from all shewe of euill it is ment of euill life and euil doctrine least we doe any thing with a scrupulous conscience T. C. Pag. 59. tovvardes the ende M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes shewes of good not of euil as y e authors of the Admonition alleage To the proofe whereof although according to his manner he repeateth diuerse things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hathe comprehended in an argument which is that for so muche as the ministers are good which weare them therefore they are also good and bicause the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of Idols to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Saddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and his three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babilonian Idols are by this reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Againe the golden calfe was a signe Also it was (*) Vntruth a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of God Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betwene those and this cause I haue spoken before Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth thus they haue the shew of euill seing y e popish priesthood is euill To this I answer that whē they were a signe token of the popish priesthood then they were euill a signe of euill bicause the thing was euill which
Church Chap. 2. the. 34. Diuision Vntruthes for neyther of them speaketh of Atchdeacons in those places alledged to this purpose T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 5. Ierom. ad Euag. Aug. quaest noui vet teit q. 101. It was counted to them great arrogancie if they preferred themselues to any minister or elder of the Churche ours will not take the best ministers of the Church as their equals If therefore Archdeacons will haue any benefite by the Archdeacons of old time it is meete they shoulde content themselues with that place which they were in Io. Whitgifte No such thing is in that epistle of Hierome only he speaketh of deacons touching that matter whome he also she weth in the Church of Rome to haue bin in certaine points preferred before ministers neyther is there one word of Archdeacons in that booke of Augustines but only of Deacons You must learne to make a distinction betwixt an Archdeacon and a Deacon and not to make the reader beléeue that the authors you quote in the margente speake of Archdeacons when they onely speake of Deacons My witnesses how few so euer they be are sufficiente to withstand thys cowardly assault of yours wherein there is neyther strength nor truth Chap. 2. the. 35. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 3. Augustine in his first booke de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae maketh mention of Deanes Deanes and their offices T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 6. As for the office of a deane as it is vsed with vs it is therefore (*) Vntruthes vnlawfull for that he being minister hath (*) Vntruthes noseuerall charge or Congregation appointed wherein he may exercise his ministerie and (*) Vntruthes for that he is ruler and as it were master of diuers other ministers in his Colledge which likewise haue no seuerall charges of congregatiōs and for that which is most intollerable both he himselfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall Church or benefice as they call it is vnder the coloure of his deaneship absent from his Church and suffereth also those that are vnderneath him to be likewise absent from their Churches And whereas M. Doctor alledgeth S. Augustine to proue this office to be auncient indeede the name is there found but besides the name not one propertie of that deane which we haue For Augustine speaking of the monks of those dayes saythe that the money which they gate with the labor of their hands they gaue to their deane which did prouide them meate and drinke and cloth and all things necessary for them So that their monkes shoulde not be drawen away from their studies and meditations through the care of worldly things So that this Deane which he speaketh of was seruaunte and stewarde and cater to the Monks and therefore only called Deane bycause he was steward and cater to ten Monks Now let it be seene what Augustines deane maketh for the deane which is theirs and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth in reciting of the old fathers Io. Whitgifte All thys is but your owne sansies taken for principles and groundes For fyrste it is vntrue that euery Minister muste of necessitie haue some seuerall Tractat. 4. charge as I haue declared before Secondly it is as vntrue that a Deane hathe no seuerall charge or congregation wherein to exercise his ministerie For there is no Cathedrall Churche withoute a congregation and charge The third that followeth is builded of the same groundes that these two fyrste be and may as well be spoken agaynste the masterships of suche Colledges in the vniuersities wherein any preachers or ministers bée maynteyned Whyche argueth that you meane the same to Colledges that you doe to Cathedrall Churches and that you woulde haue ministers frée from subiection Last of all that whyche you say is most intellerable you speake withoute any tolerable reason For Master Deane and hys Prebendaries do more good both in the Churche of Englande generally and in their seuerall Churches particularly and take more paines in one moneth than you and your companions whereof some notwithstanding are contente without doing any dutie at all to enioy prebendes more than one in one whole yeare And if eyther Master Deane or the Prebendaries neglect their dueties there be superiours and lawes to reforme them The place of Augustine proueth the name of a Deane it proueth a College and societie whereof he is Deane it argueth a superioritie and gouernmente for he saith they be called Decani ideò quòd sint denis praepositi Deanes bycause they are set ouer tenne it sheweth an office to care and prouide for them and sée that they haue all thynges necessary it declareth dayly exercise of praying and teaching for he addeth thus Conueniunt autem diei tempore extremo de suis quisque habitaculis dum adhuc ieiuni sunt ad audiendum illum patrem conueniunt ad singulos patres terna ad minimum hominum milia Nam etiam multò numerosiores sub vno agunt They come togyther at night euery man from his lodging whilest yet they are fasting to heare that father and they Aug. de moribus ecclesiae come togyther to euery father three thousand men at the least for a greate meanie moe liue vnder one c. Now sir if God of his singular goodnesse hathe to the greate and vnspeakeable benefyte of his Churche moued the harts of princes and men of wealth so to indue suche places with possessions and reuenewes that they hauing thynges necessary prouided for them may bestow that tyme in studying praying preaching and other godly exercises whiche these that Sainct Augustine speaketh of did in labouring with their handes is Master Deanes name or office euer the woorse howsoeuer it pleaseth you to terme these companies that Sainct Augustine héere speaketh of Yet were they Godly societies and do very aptly set foorth the vtilitie and the antiquitie of Churches and Colledges the Deanes and Masters whereof haue indéede the chiefe and speciall care of all externall things perteyning to them whether it be landes prouisions or any thing else that is necessary And therefore the liker to Sainct Augustines Deane and the place more aptly alledged to proue the antiquitie of this name and office If Master Doctor should vse no more faith in reciting the Doctors than you do I woulde he were whipped at the crosse in Cheape Chap. 2. the. 36. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 67. Sect. 4. Nytherto Antichrist had not inuaded the Church of Rome But what shoulde I trouble you with any more authorities those that be learned may easily vnderstand that these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and suche lyke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best and worthyest Councells fathers and writers T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 7. And vnto the end that these testimonies might be more autenticall and haue some waighte in them Master Doctor addeth that hitherto Antichrist had not inuaded the seate of Rome You shall
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
Churche to the which the whole realme hath consented Can. apost 33. The. 33. Canon of the Apostles quoted in the margent is this Episcopos singularum gentium scire conuenit quis inter eos primus babeatur quem velut existiment c. It behoueth the Bishops of euery prouince to know who is chiefe among thē whom they must esteeme as their head and do nothing without his knowledge saue such things only as pertayne to their owne parish and villages which are vnder it neyther shall he do any thing without the knowledge of all For so shall vnitie be kept and God shall be glorified through Christe in the holy Ghost What haue you gotten by this Canon you see here manifestly that in euery prouince or nation there must be one chiefe Bishop that is Archbishop to whom the rest muste submitte themselues and do nothing without his knowledge This is asmuch as I require And if this Canon was made by the Apostles wherof you seeme not to doubte then is the name and authoritie of an Archbishop of greater antiquitie than you would gladly haue it and the reason and saying of S. Ierome most true Both of this Canon and of the Canon of the councell of Antioch confirming it I haue spoken before Your Passim in the margent if it be meant of such like plac s as this I graunt it but if of any other popular or Aristocraticall state and kinde of gouernment or to the improuing of the office and authoritie of an Archbishop it will fall out to be nusquam You say that it appeareth in the decretalls themselues that this kinde of gouernment hath bene the wellspryng of most horrible schisme Shew one place why are you not ashamed to vtter manifest vntruthes Shew one sentence there tending to that ende I haue recited some Canons out of that place and I haue shewed the entent of Gratian both in them and in the rest They all signifie that an Archbyshop may not do any thing of his owne authoritie without the consent of the other Byshops which no man denieth and this is the whole scope of that question Our peace is in truth and due obedience we haue the true doctrine of the worde of God and the right administration of the Sacramentes and therefore to make contention in this Church and to disturbe the quietnes and peate cannot be but mere schismaticall I will say no worse Zuinglius in his Ecclesiastes sayth that the Anabaptistes went aboute to defende their contentions then after the same manner that you do yours nowe But I answere you as he answered them your contention is not agaynst Infidels Papists and such like but agaynst the faythfull agaynst the true professors of the Gospell and in the Church of Christe and therefore as it is of it selfe wicked so is it the cause of contempt disobedience and much other vngodlinesse And the two flintstones may be in such time and place striken togither that the sparkes of fire which commeth from them may consume and burne the whole citie and countrie too And surely he is but a mad man that will smite fire to light a candle to sée by at noone day when the sunne shineth most clearely Chap. 3. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. If therefore superioritie and domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men frō schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to keepe them togither in errour and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted than many this power of one bringeth as great incōmoditie in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Io. Whitgifte This is as though you should saye that if a Monarchie be an excellent kynde of gouernment and in déede the best when the lawes rule and not man as Aristotle sayth then also is it the worste when affection ruleth and not the lawe which is true for that is the worst state of gouernment which is opposed to the beste But if you will therefore conclude that a Monarchie is not the best state your argument hath no reason in it euen so is it in the gouernment of the Churche if the chéefe gouernour thereof should follow his owne appetite and be ruled by his priuate affections but it is farre otherwise when he ruleth according to the lawes wherevnto he himselfe is subiect Chap. 3. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag 81. Sect. 4. Morouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnitie in the Church of England that one Archbishop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall Churche there should be one Archbishop or Byshop ouer all and the like necessitie of the byshop ouer A popish reason all Christendome as of the byshop of all England vnlesse peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall Church than ouer the Church of England for as much as it is more necessarie that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersall Church than in the particular church of England Io. Whitgifte This is the reason of the Papistes for the Popes supremacie and you haue borowed The reasons serue not for the Pope that serue for the Archbishop Caluine it from them Wherefore I will answere you as M. Caluine answereth them in his Institutions Cap. 8. Sect. 95. That which is profitable in one nation cannot by any reason be extended to the whole worlde for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation And a little after it is euen as though a man should affirme that the whole world may be gouerned by one King bycause one fielde or towne hath but one ruler or Mayster And agayne that which is of force among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole worlde to the gouernment whereof no one man is sufficient M. Nowell also answereth Dorman making the same reason that you doe in these M. Nowell lib. 3. fol. 321. woordes To your third question sayeth he speaking to Dorman the lewdest of all why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene the Pope and the reste of the Byshops of Christendome that is betweene the Archbishop and the other Bishops of the prouince I answere you might as well aske why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene one Emperour of all the worlde and all the Princes of the worlde to be vnder him that is betweene the King of one realme and his Lordes vnder him The reason that the same proportion can not be kept is first bycause there is no lyke proportion at all betweene the abilitie of mans witte and power being but weake to gouerne one prouince and his abilitie to gouerne the whole Churche and all Churches throughout the worlde which no one man can haue knowledge of much lesse can haue abilitie to rule them Secondly you can bring no
Whitgifte What opinion Master Caluine hathe of Archbyshops and of Superioritie amongest Pastors and Ministers maye appeare in his wordes that I haue alleaged in my Answere I thinke Master Caluine neuer vttered in worde or wryting hys mislyking of the present gouernmente of thys Churche of Englande by Archbyshops and Byshops what he hath spoken agaynst the abuse of them in the Popes Church is not to be wrested against the right vse of them in the true Churche of Christ. I haue answered the Scriptures by you alleaged truely and directly You haue not as yet vrged me wyth that authoritie of Master Caluine that I haue so shifted of as you haue done this last The Scholiast meaneth that euery Citie shoulde haue his Pastor in the Isle of Creta and that Titus shoulde gouerne them as Byshop not as hauyng the whole Titus Archbyshop and sole charge of euery seuerall towne or Citie whych maye euidently appeare to be true by these wordes of Theodoret placed in the same author Titus was a notable Diseiple of Paul but was ordeyned Bishop of Creta whych was a very large Isle Theodoret. in arg Epist. Tit. apud Scholiast it was permitted cōmitted vnto him that he might ordeine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshops that were vnder hym Wherby it may be gathered that euery Citie in Creta had a Byshop whyche had the seuerall charge and that Titus gouerned them as Archbyshop The lyke doth Chrysostome whom the Greeke Scholiast doth especially followe affirme of Timothie in 1. Tim. 5. vpon these wordes aduersus presbyterum c. Timotheo credita fuerat ecclesia imò gens ferè tota Asiatica The Churche yea almoste Chrysost. the whole people of Asia was committed to Timothie But what néede I vse manie wordes when Chrysostome hymselfe affirmeth the same directly of Titus 1. Idem ad Titum neque eius profectò illi c. Truely Paule woulde not haue committed the whole Isle to hym neyther woulde he haue commaunded those thyngs to be supplyed whyche were wanting for he sayth that thou myghtest correcte those thyngs whyche are wanting neither woulde he haue committed vnto him the Iudgemente of so manye Byshops if he had not trusted hym very well Chap. 3. the. 56. Diuision T. C. Page 87. Sect. 1. Nowe M. Doctor maye see by thys that Titus was not as he fansyeth the Archbyshop of all Crete but that he had one flocke wherevpon for the tyme he was there he attended and that where it is sayde he ordeyned Ministers it is nothyng else but that he was the chiefe and the moderator in the election of the ministers as I haue declared before by many examples And it is no maruell althoughe the reste graunted hym this preheunnence when he had both most excellent giftes and was a degree aboue the Pastors being an Euangelist Io. Whitgifte Thys I maye see that firste you haue no conscience in falsifying and corruptyng of authors Secondly that you speake contraryes euen in these fewe lynes for you saye that Titus had one flocke in Creta wherevpon he dyd attende for the tyme he T. C. contrarie to himselfe was there ▪ whiche muste néedes proue hym to be a Pastor and yet you afterwardes denye hym to be a Pastor affirming hym to be an Euangelist and you take the office of an Euangelist to be so distincte from the office of a Pastor that they may not méete together in one man Thirdly I sée that you confidentlye take vpon you to expounde Paules meanyng agaynste hys playne woordes and agaynste the Iudgemente of the olde interpreters and diuerse of the newe as I haue shewed before in the election of Ministers Besydes these I see nothing answered to this example of Titus Chap. 3. the. 57. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Timothie bare rule ouer all the other Ministers of the Churche Timothies authoritie ▪ of Ephesus for Paule saythe vnto hym 1. Timo. 5. aduersus presbyterum accusationem c. Agaynst a Minister receyue no accusation vnlesse there be two or three vvitnesses In which words Paul maketh him a Iudge ouer the rest of the Ministers T. C. Page 87. Sect. 2. Unto the place of Timothie where he wylleth hym not to admitte an accusation agaynste an Elder vnder two or three witnesses I answere as ▪ I haue done before to the place of Titus that is that as the ordination of the Pastors is attributed vnto ▪ Titus and Timothie bycause they gouerned and moderated that action and were the firste in it so also is the deposyng or other censures of them and that for as muche as he wryteth his Epistles vnto Timothie and Titus he telleth them howe they shoulde behaue them selues in theyr offyce and dothe not shut oute other from thys censure and Iudgemente And it is more agreeable to the inscription of the Epistles that he shoulde saye admitte not thou or ordeyne not thou wryting vnto one than if he shoulde saye ordeyne not ye or admitte not ye as if he shoulde write to manye for so shoulde neyther the endyng agree wyth the begynnyng nor y e myddest wyth them both And if thys be a good rule that bycause Paule byddeth Timothie and Titus to Iudge of the faultes of the pastors and to ordeyne Pastors therefore none else dyd but they then (*) A meeres ▪ uill whereas Saynte Paule byddeth Timothie that he shoulde commaunde and teache that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs and admonisheth hym to be an example of the whole flocke by your reason he wyll haue no other of the Ministers of Ephesus or of the Isle of Creta to teache that doctrine or to be examples to their flockes and an hundreth suche thyngs in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus whyche althoughe they be there particularly directed vnto Timothie and Titus yet doe they agree and are common to them wyth all other Ministers yea sometymes vnto the whole flocke Io. Whitgifte You haue certeyne common shiftes to put of suche places as you can not answere among whiche thys is one that you vse in thys place But it wyll not serue beyng grounded neyther vppon authoritie nor reason These woordes of Saynte Paule in déede be not spoken to Timothie alone but to all other Byshops of lyke authoritie for that whiche is prescribed to Timothie is also prescribed to all other in the lyke function whyche argueth that thys authoritie gyuen to Timothie ouer all the Ministers of the Churche of Ephesus dothe perteyne also to all other Byshoppes ouer the Ministers of theyr seuerall Diecesse But as Saynte Paule in these Epistles wryteth onely to Byshoppes and Pastors so are the preceptes gyuen therein properly perteyning to the offyce of Byshops and Pastors and therefore not to be wrested to anye other And howe can the Papistes more grossely abuse the Scriptures in interpretyng them to serue their turne and to shifte of theyr authoritie alleaged agaynste them than you doe in thys and suche other places agaynste
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth the high priesthood to be nothing else but a byshopryke and in the seuenth chapter of that booke and so forth diuers tymes you shall haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken for a Bishop as speaking of the councell of Nice he sayth that there was 318. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 high priests Now I thinke you wil not say there were 318. Archbishops if you do you are confuted by all Ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I read which speaking of them calleth them Byshops Io. Whitgifte This name Priest is vsuallly applied to the minister of the Gospell in all Histories fathers and wryters of antiquitie And the most of the latest writers do vse it and make no great serupulositie in it neyther doth the name Priest burie our Sauiour Christe as long as it is vsed for a minister of the Gospell neyther is there any daunger in it at all as long as the office is lawfull Not onely Cyrill vseth this name high Priest but Tertull. also in his booke De Tertull. Baptismo where he sayeth that Episcopus is summus sacerdos The Bishop is the hie Prieste and in lyke manner Theodorete as you here say and yet none of them ment to derogate any thing from the office of Christe I told you before how names proper to Christe may be also attributed to men this beyng graunted I haue as much as I desire for as the Bishop is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the respect of other Priestes that be inferiour vnto him so is the chiefe Bishop called Archiepiscopus in respect of other Bishops that be gouerned and directed by him And as among the ministers there is one chéefe which is called a Bishop so among the Bishops there is one chéefe also that is called an Archbishop and this is that ordo that Augustine speaketh of as I haue sayd in my Answere to the Admoni ion in the woordes of M. Foxe Chap. 3. the. 65. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect 2. Theodoretus li. 5. ca. 28. wryteth that Chrysostome beyng the Bishop Theodoret of Chrysostome of Constantinople did not onely rule that Churche but the Churches also in Thracia in Asia and in Pontus T. C. Pag. 88. Sect 4. Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia Pontus and he sayeth it out of Theodorete But herein it may appeare that either M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying writers and that in the poynts which lie in controuersie (*) Or els you plucke your self by the nose or els he hath taken his stuffe of certaine at the second hand without any examination of it at all For here he hath set downe in steade of had care of the churches of Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is (a) The wordes of Theodoret clipped 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorete in Greeke nor in Latine And what is this to proue an Archbishop that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches thorough christendome and to shewe that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by writing or by visiting them (b) What scrip ture expresseth these conditions and cautions ▪ if the necessitie so require and it is thought good by the churches and leaue obteyned of the place where he is minister vpon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After this sort * As it ap peareth by diuerse epistles of his S. Cyprian being in Afrike had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After this sorte also was Ireneus Bishop of Lions sent by the french Churches vnto the churches in (c) Vntrue Phrygia and after this sorte haue M. Caluine and M. Bez bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the Churches of Fraunce Euseb. li. 5. cap. 3. 4. Io. Whitgifte It shall appeare God willing whether M. Doctors memory or yours be worse The falsifying of Theodoret returned vpon the Replier whether he hath an euill conscience in falsifying writers or you in slaundering of him whether he taketh his stuffe at the second hand or you rather that haue borrowed of other mē collections almost whatsoeuer you haue heaped togither in your booke All this I say shall appeare euen to trie your corrupt vntrue dealing in this place and certainely I cannot but maruell what affection hath so gotten the vpper hand of you that it prouoketh you to such outrage us speaches in a matter so manifestly counterfet If you haue not séene the Author I will ascribe it to negligent ignorāce but if you haue séene him I cannot ascribe it to any other thing than to vnsha efast malice The whole storie as it is in Theodoret is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iohn the great hauing receyued the sterne of the Church reproued the iniuries of certaine boldly and counsayled the king and the Queene things c uenient and exhorted the Priest o walke according to the lawes appoynted But such as were not afrayde to breake them he suffered not to come to the table saying it was not meete that those should enioye the honour of Priestes which would not follow the conuersation of true Priestes And this care 〈◊〉 vsed not only ouer that citie but also ouer whole Thracia which cōteyneth six prouinces and ouer all Asia which is gouerned vnder eleuen rulers and moreouer he gouerned the Church of Pontus with these lawes in which coūtrie are as many rulers as in Asia First he sayth that Chrysostome tooke the stern or gouernmēt of the Church then that he did freely reprehend vice Thirdly that he commaunded the Priests to liue according to the lawes Fourthly that he did excommunicate and depriue of their priestly honour such as durst transgresse Is not this to rule what Archbishop in England doth execute greater iurisdiction Then it followeth immediatly in Theodor. and vvith this care he did prouide for or embrace not only his citie but the Churches of Thracia c. Where it is to be noted that Theodorete sayth with this care c. meaning that as he had the gouernment of the Church of Cōstantinople and did there reprehend vice cōmaunded the Priests to liue according to the lawes excōmunicate them that did not and put them from their office so did he also in the Churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus Theodoretes words be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. and you haue craftely left out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you might the rather cloke Theodoretes plaine meaning Besides this Theodoret sayth in playne woordes that he gouerned
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
and they are to vveake to pull downe Stultitia nata est in corde pueri virga disciplinae fugabit illam Prouerb 22. It is but vvantonnesse correction will helpe it Thus haue I answered in his behalfe who bothe in this and other lyke controuersies might haue bene a greate stay to this Churche of Englande if we hadde bene worthie of him But whilest he liued and especially after his notable and most profitable trauailes he receiued the same reward of wicked and vngrateful tongues that other men be exercised with and all must looke for that will doe their duetie But nowe agayne to T. C. The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiues and the estate of the olde Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect 4. Now I haue shewed howe little those things which M. Doctor bringeth make for proofe of that wherfore he alleageth them I will for the better vnderstanding of the reader se e downe what were the causes why the Archbishops were fyrst ordeyned ▪ and what were their prerogatiues and preheminences before other Bishops and the estate also of the olde Bishoppes which lyued in those tymes wherein although there were great corruptions yet the Churche was 〈◊〉 some tollerable estate to the intent it may appeare partly how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we haue of them now partly also howe great difference there is betwene oures and them O the names of Metropolitanes it hath bene spoken howe that he shoulde not be called the chiefe o priests or the high priest or Bishop of Bishops Now I will set downe their office and power whiche they hadde more than the Bishoppes Io. Whitgifte If you haue no more truthe in your words folowing than y u vtter in the beginning of these or if you deale no soundlyer in them than you haue done in the other M. Doctors proofes shall serue the turne But it is in vayne to answere wordes I will therfore come to your matter Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 94. Sect. 5. In the Councel of Antioche it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seat called (a) An vnt 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 there is no suche thing in that much cano ▪ Chap. 9. Synodes propounded the matters which were to be handled c. The archbishop doth not ew call Synodes but the Prince doth forasmuche as there is no conuocation without a parliament and he dothe not propounde the matters and gather the voyces but an other chosen whiche is called prolocutor therefore in the respecte that an Archbishop and Metropolitane was tyrst ordeyned we haue no neede of an Archebishop or Metropolitane Agayne an other cause also appeareth there (b) An 〈◊〉 truthe whiche was to see that the Bishops kepte them selues within their owne di cesse and brake not into an others Diocesse but fyrste this maye be doone withoute an Archebishoppe and then it is not doone of the Archebishop himselfe giuing licences vnto the wandering ministers to goe thoroughout not so fewe as a dosen diocesse therefore the office of an archbishop is not necessarie in this respecte and if it were yet it muste be other than it is nowe Io. Whitgifte There is no Councell more flatte agaynst you than is that Councell of Antioche nor any Canon that ouerthroweth your assertion more directely than that ninth Canon the woordes whereof I haue repeated before but youre vntrue allegation in a manner compelleth me to repeate them agayne that the Reader may see before his eyes what truthe there is in your doings And although it do perteyne to the office of the Metropolitane or Archebishoppe to call Synodes yet is there not one woorde thereof in this Cannon nor yet of propounding any matters in Synodes or of seyng Bishoppes keepe themselues within theyr owne diocesse as you doe here auouche without all truthe and notwithstanding as I sayde before those things doe perteine to the office of the Archebishoppe yet if they were also comprehended in that Canon it were rather a confirmation of that office than otherwyse The contentes of that Canon be onely these firste it sayeth that it behoueth the Bishoppes of euery countrey or prouince to knowe theyr Metropolitane Bishoppe to haue the care and ouersighte or gouernment ouer the whole Prouince By the whiche woordes the authoritie and name of a Metropolitane or Archebishoppe is moste pl ynely confirmed and proued to be a permanent off ce Secondly this Canon willeth all those that haue any businesse to doe to resorte to the Metropolitane citie Whereby also is giuen to the Metropolitane Bishop greate preheminence and therefore it followeth immediatly that he shoulde excell all the reste in honour and that the other Bishoppes shoulde doe nothing of importance without him according to the olde rule made by their forefathers but onely those thyngs whiche perteyne to theyr owne diocesse and those places and possessions that perteine vnto the same In whiche wordes who séeth not what preheminence is giuen to the Metropolitane ouer all the Bishoppes in hys Prouince and what iurisdiction to the Bishop in his owne diocesse and places perteyning vnto it where also it is to be noted that the Councell sayeth secundiòn antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam according to the auncient rule appointed of oure forefathers Whyche argueth a greate antiquitie of this office Then it followeth for euery Bishop hath authoritie ouer his owne Diocesse to rule and gouerne it iuxta reuerentiam singulis competentem accordyng to the reuerence due vnto euerie one of them and that he hathe especiall care of that whole region that i subiecte to his Citie so that he maye ordeyne Priestes and Deaeons singulasuo iuditio comprehendat But he may not attempt any other thyng without the Metropolitane Bishop nor the Metropolitane do any thing without the counsel of the other Priests What can bée more playne eyther for the authoritie of the Arche bishoppe or iurisdiction of the Bishop and what one worde of this Canon haue you truely alleadged and yet it is quoted in your margent But if we imagine those thinges to be true whiche you saye howe will you conclude forsooth that the Metropolitane did then call Synodes and propounded the matters but nowe he dothe not call Synodes and propounde the matters Therefore there is nowe no neede of a Metropolitane Firste it is vntrue that Metropolitanes did then call eyther all Synodes or that they called them of theyr owne authoritie without the consente of the Prince and Ciuill Magistrate whiche thing is euident when the Magistrates were christened The Councell of Nice was summoned by the commaundement of Constantine Co cels sum moned by Princes Euse de vita Constan lib. 3. the Emperoure Eusebius de vita Constanti lib. 3. Constantius called the Councell whyche was in Sardica ciuitate The Bishoppes in the Councell of Constanti confesse that they came together by the Emperoures wrytte Ambrose in the Councell of Aquileia speaking of him
Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Byshop of Carthage Numidia Mauritania Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothie being Byshop had the gouernment almost of the whole countrie of Asia as Chrysostome declareth vpon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Byshop of y e whole I le of Creta as the same Chrysost. testifyeth ad Tit. 1. I aue before by sundry Idem examples and testimonies by diuers councels and especially the councell of Nice 〈◊〉 the vanitie vntruth of this that is here affirmed that is that there was one Byshop in euery parish and congregation and the words of Cyprian and Ierome be cleane rary for they both make a difference betwene a Byshop to whome the gouernment of many pastors is committed and a pastor that hath but one seuerall flocke or charge For further vnderstanding whereof I referre y e Reader to that which is spoken before The byshops haue now as seuerall churches to preache and minister the sacraments in as they had then They haue no more authoritie in gouernment now than they had at that time nor so much and yet if they had more authoritie than they eyther haue now or had then I thinke it were more for the commoditie of the Church the state of the time and conditions of men considered As for ruling euery seuerall churche by those whiche you call Elders you haue shewed no such thing out of Ierome neyther can you For Ierome in that place you meane by presbyteri meaneth Priests as he dothe in all other places that I remember Neyther doth he there speake of particular parishes Touching the electing and ordeyning of ministers sufficient hath bin spoken before Tract 3. The Byshop doth nothing therein but that which he may iustly by the word of God and testimonie of the best and most worthy writers Of excommunication we shall speake hereafter you do glance at it now out of Tract 18. place And thus he that is an indifferēt Reader may vnderstand that the Byshops in these days in this Church of England haue no other authoritie than the word of God doth giue vnto them The Byshops of the primitiue Church haue pract sed y e libertie of the Church wel beareth and the state of the time and condition of men requireth Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauayle those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy councell it was not lawfull for him that was then an Hispal con ca. elder to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop bycause the Byshop himselfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the Byshops good licence although he be present Io. Whitgifte There is no iust cause of complaint for most of the Byshops in that behalfe For I thinke the time hath not bin wherein there were moe preaching Byshops than are at this day in this Church But do you thinke that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop Or do you so well allow of A corrupt councell alledged that Councell and canon quoted in your margent It was the second councell called Hispalense concilium it was not generall but prouinciall celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alledged are these That a Priest may not cōsecrate alters but only the Byshop that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrate virgines erect altars Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. blesse and anoynt them hallow churches make holy oyle and such like but only the Byshop Likewise that no priest may baptise say Masse ▪ teach the people or blesse them in the presence of the Byshop Surely this is a worthy Councel and a notable canon especially for you to alledge that haue so depraued other worthy writers for some imperfections founde in them But what doth it make for your purpose They might both preach and minister The councell alledged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop if he willed them and so is the canon This law was made for the encreasing of the Byshops pompe and dignitie for no man might presume to speake or do any thing in their presence without their leaue and licence so were they estéemed thē and such authoritie had they But if our Byshops should clayme the like you would say that it were an vntollerable arrogancie and pride I would to God all those that be deluded by you would consider your allegations and the grounds of your proofes Surely I woulde be loth to alledge any Councell of that time to proue any thing in controuersie Much more loth would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon but lothest of all to alledge that which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause proue the cleane cōtrary to that which I affirme as this doth in your 〈◊〉 ▪ And here I haue one thing to tell you y t diuers of those things wherin you 〈◊〉 T. C. chargeth the office with the fault of the men make this difference betwixt our Byshops and those of the primitiue church if t ey were true yet wer they no saults in the office but in the men as for example thys which you here set downe Will you make a differēce in the offices of our Byshops and those of olde time bycause some of them do not preach This compareth the mē togither not the offices except you proue that it is forbidden or vnlawfull for one of our Byshops to preach There are other such like which I omitte Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1. Now if you wil also consider how much the Lord ship pompe and statelinesse of the Byshops in our days differ from the simplicitie of them in times past ▪ I will giue you also a taste therof if first of all I shew the beginning or as it were the fountaine where vpon the pompe grew which Marke how this is proued was when in stead of hauing a Byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a Byshop of a whole dioces and of a thousand congregations Io. Whitgifte If the pompe began as you say then began it in the Apostles time for then began they to make one Byshop ouer a whole diocesse as Timothie almost ouer all Asia and Titus ouer all Creta as I haue declared Which order hath bin from that day to this obserued throughout all Christendome as it may appeare by that which is already said Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie vnto (*) It is an epistle o Pope Zacharie to Boniface not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface Pope Boniface it is thus written it hath bin oftētimes decreede Concil to 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. y t there should not be
speake to mayntayne any excessiue or outrageous pompe but I speake of the egrees in the Ecclesiasticall state and of the manners and conditions of the persons as they be now according to the lawes and customes allowed in this Church of England Chap. 5. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 3. And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbishops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Bishops haue besides the names almoste nothing common 〈◊〉 those which haue bene in lder tymes before the sunne of the Gospell beganne to be maruelously darkened by the stinking mistes which the Diuell sent forth out of the bottomlesse pit to blynde the eyes of men that they should not see the shame and nakednesse of that purpled whoore which in the person of the Cleargie long before she gatte into hir seate prepared hir selfe by payntyng hi writhen face with the colours of these gorgeous titles and with the shewe of magnificall and worldly pompe For the Diuell knewe well inough that if he should haue set vp one onely Byshop in that seate of perdition and lefte all the reste in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that his eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to get into that and when he had gotten it yet beyng as it were an owle amongst a sorte of byrdes should haue bene quickly discouered Io. Whitgifte And I also leaue it to the iudgement of the learned and indifferent Reader 〈◊〉 consider by that which I haue sayde before how vntrue all this is that you here affirme I speake of these degrées and offices as they be nowe vsed in this Churche of England if there be any difference it is bycause they haue not so large and ample iurisdiction and authoritie now as they had then Sathan worketh by sundrie meanes and spareth no fetches to bring to passe his The subtiltie of Sathan in counterfeyte godlinesse must not preiudice that which is true purpose Under the pretence of zeale he hath ingendred sectes and schismes vnder the title of puritie perfection he hath brought in heresie vnder the cloake of simplicitie he hath spread abrode many kindes of idolatrie and superstition vnder the shadow of humilitie he hath couered vntollerable ambition and marueylous arrogancie and what soeuer he bringeth to passe commonly he doth it vnder the colour of vertue and of that which is good and therefore I thinke that euen vnder the names and titles of lawfull degrees and calling he hath established vnlawfull authoritie but neyther is true zeale puritie perfection simplicitie humilitie nor yet lawfull degrées and callings therefore to be condemned Viti as Cyprian sayeth vicin sunt virtutibus Vices Discretion is very necessary be very nigh vnto vertues and the one laboureth to imitate the other but we must not therefore the lesse estéeme of vertue but rather learne prudently to discerne what is the difference betwixt the one and the other If we haue not learned this lesson what state in the common wealth what office what degrée of person nay what kinde of gouernment shall we allowe it is the greatest folly in the worlde to condemne the thing it selfe bycause of the abuse Chap. 5. the. 26. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 3. But I haue done only this I admonish the reader that I do not allowe of all those thinges A proper ca eat which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbishops and the Archbishops of olde tyme or our Bishops theyrs Onely my intent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how small cause there is that they should alleage their examples to confirme the Archbishops and Bishops that nowe are Io. Whitgifte You do well to worke surely for now shall no man take any great aduauntage of your woordes how be it it had bene curteously done to haue let vs vnderstand what you allowe of this you haue wrytten and what you allowe not For in leauing the matter so rawly you will make vs suspect that you haue spoken you know not what Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our Cleargie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answere Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Sect. vlt. Concerning the offices of an high commissioner iustice of peace how necessarily they be committed to some of the best wisest of the Cleargie what vice by them is bridled what inconuenience mette with what necessarie discipline vsed those know that be wise haue experience in publike affaires and gouernment There is no worde of God to proue why these offices may not concurre in one man But it is the commission that troubleth these men as for peace they are at defiance with it T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 4. Concerning the offices of cōmissionership and how vnmeete it is that ministers of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shall be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde Io. Whitgifte And vntill that afterward be performed will I also differre that which is further to be sayd in this matter Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 76. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 77. Sect. 1. To be shorte they say that all these offices be plainely in Gods worde forbidden and they alleage Math. 23. Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Pet. 5. The places of Mathew Luke be answered before Christ beateth Tract 1. downe ambition and pryde and desire of bearing rule as he did before when he sayde be ye not called Rabbi and call no man father be not called Doctors he doth not condemne the names but the ambition of the minde In the. 1. Cor. 4. it is thus written Let a man thus thinke of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. The ministers of the worde in deede are not to be estemed as Gods but as the ministers of God Some among the Corinthians gloried in their ministers and attributed to much vnto them Here of came these factiōs I holde of Paule I of Apollo c. This teacheth your adherentes and disciples not to attribute to much to you such as you are or any other minister of Gods word It maketh nothing agaynst the names or authorities eyther of Archbishop Lordbishop or any other that you haue named who be the ministers of Christ and ought so to be esteemed The place of S. Peter cap. 5. is this Feede the flocke of God c. not as though you vvere Lordes ouer the flocke c. Peter here condemneth hautinesse contempt and tyrannie of pastors towards theyr flockes he doth not take away lawfull gouernment The Pastor hath rule and superioritie ouer his flocke but it must not be
that hath bene of him and the triall that hath bene of you his experience and yours But what shoulde I compare together things so vnlike That M. Bucer is directly against you in this assertion of yours it dothe not appeare onely in these words of his but in others also which he speaketh to the like effect as in the. 4. to the Eph. as I haue before declared And again vpon the same chapter Bucer n. 4. Ephe. he saith The third part of discipline is obedience which is first to be rendred of al to the Bishop and Minister then of euery clearke to those that be in degree aboue him to suche as may helpe him to the well executing of his ministerie Last of all of Bishops to synodes and to their Metropolitane Byshops and to all other to whom a more ample charge of the churches is committed And in the same commentaries after that he hath proued by sundry examples apt reasons y t this superioritie among Ecclesiasticall persons is conuenient and profitable and shewed that these degrées in the Church Bishop Archbyshop Metropolitane Primate Patria ke be not onely most auncient but also necessarie he concludeth on this sort Bicause it is necessarie that euery one of the cleargie should Idem haue their rulers and gouernours the authoritie power vigilancie and seueritie of Bishops Archdeacons and all other by what name soeuer they be called to whome any portion of keping and gouernin the cleargie is committed should or ought to be restored least there be any in thys order out of rule and without gouernment Howe thinke you nowe of M. Bucers iudgement Is it not directly against you be not his wordes plaine Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 1. Your places quoted in the margent to proue that there ought to Scriptures wreasted to proue equalitie of Ministers be an equalitie of Ministers sounde nothing that waye 2. Cor. 10. vers 7. these be the wordes of the Apostle Looke ye on things after the appearance If any truste in him felfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen so are vve Christes Howe conclude you of these wordes your equalitie I promyse you it passeth my cunning to wring out of them any suche sense rather the contrary may be gathered oute of the wordes following whiche be these For though I shoulde boast somevvhat more of our authoritie vvhich the Lord. c. I should haue no shame M. Caluine expounding Caluine these wordes sayth on this sort It vvas for modestie that he ioyned him selfe to their number vvhome he did farre excell and yet he vvould not be so modest but that he vvould kepe his authoritie safe therefore he addeth that he spake lesse than of right he might haue done For he vvas not of the common sorte of ministers but one of the chiefe among the Apostles ▪ and Degrees of honour in the ministerie therefore he saith if I boaste more I nede not be ashamed for I haue good cause And a litle after Quamuis enim commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfsame office be common to all the Ministers of the vvorde yet there is degrees of honour Thus you see Caluine farre otherwise to gather of this place than you doe T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holie ghoste to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluine doth openly mislike of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certaine which the holy ghost maketh common to mo And where as of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honoure in the ministerie Here he defendeth not the admonition but shifteth it or by auilling M. Doctour would gather an Archbishop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euange ste an Euangeliste aboue a Pastor a Pastor aboue a Doctor and he aboue an Elder that ruleth onely he neded neuer haue gone to the popishe Hierarchie to seke his diuersiti s of degrees ▪ which he might haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines wordes which sayth that Paule was one of the chiefe amongest the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an Archbishop amongst the bishops he should haue remembred that S. Paules chiefetie amōgst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoriti or dominion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest Io. Whitgifte I do not oppose mens authoritie to y e authoritie of y e holy ghost to the reasons which ar grounded out of the scripture but I oppose them to your authoritie and to your reasons who spurne against that order whiche the holie ghoste hath placed in the Churche most shamefully abuse the scripture to mainteine your errours an example wherof is this present text alledged by the Admonition which you passe ouer in silence condemning therby their leudenesse in abusing the same It is you and yours that abuse the name and authoritie of the holie ghoste it is you that wring and wreste the Scriptures vntollerably it is you that falsifie authorities of learned men corruptly alledge them It is you I say that depraue and discredit such writers as haue bene and be notable instrumentes in the churche of Christe and all this you do to maintaine your erroneous opinions and false doctrine wherewith you endeuour to subuerte this churche of Englande M. Caluines wordes be playne and they directly ouerthrowe your equalitie of ministers and shewe the fondnes of the Admonition in alledging that place of scripture to proue any such equalitie M. Caluines wordes be these Qu muis commune sit omnibu verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfe same office be common to all the ministers of the worde yet there are degrees of honor Which wordes disproue the equalitie of ministers by the admonition affirmed confirmed with this portion of scripture by M. Caluine here interpreted that is 2. Cor. 10. verse 7. If there were degrees of honour in the Apostles tyme among those which had idem 〈◊〉 the selfe same office as M. Caluine affirmeth why should there not be so now T. C. contra ie to himselfe likewise But will you sée howe vnlike you are vnto your selfe euen in these fewe lynes first you saye that M. Caluines meaning is that an Apostle is aboue an Euangeliste an Euangelist is aboue a Pastor c. and by and by after you confesse that there was chieftie euen among the Apostles but it consisted in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest To omitte these contrarieties of yours into the whiche the plainenesse of Master Caluin s wordes hath driuen you this inequalitie that you
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
impossible one thyng should be more impossible than another If I shoulde thus reason I thynke I should put you to some payne But I wyll not drawe the reader to suche thorny and subtyll questions it is inough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one should be more impossible than the other And that it is impossible for one man to be Bishop ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole Dioces I leaue it to be considered of that whych is before sayde in the description of the offyce of a Byshop pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the Bishop in hys Churche Io. Whitgifte In so saying I say but as other learned men haue sayd and especially M. Caluine in the place afterwarde alleaged in my answere and as the practise of the Churche hath béene in the best state and vnder the best Bishops as it may appeare by that which hath béene hitherto spoken Your Philosophicall argument is sone answered without any great payne For to gouerne one Prouince in that maner and forme that is required of an Archbishop is neyther infinite nor impossible But it is great lack of iudgement to thinke that bicause one man can not well gouerne the whole world therfore he can not well gouerne a prouince or dioces I haue shewed the practise of the Churche to be contrarie in the Apostles tyme and since their time Chap. 6. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 101. Sect. 1. As a Prince may rule a whole Realme suche as Fraunce or Englande (*) This is absurdissimum a M. Caluine 〈◊〉 Instit. cap. 8. sect 92. so may he rule the whole worlde by officers and Magistrates appoynted vnderneathe him And there haue beene diu rs Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had Churches and althoughe it be somewhat inconuenient yet I knowe not why they mighte not so haue comming lawfully by them Nowe I woulde gladly heare whether you would say the same of a Bishop and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a prince ouer a lande to proue that a Archbishop may be ouer an whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one Bishop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not saye that there may be a bishop ouer the whole Churche But what better warrant for the one than for the other Agayne (a) If the skye fall c. if the whole Churche be in one prouince or in one realme whiche hathe beene and is (b) Yes surely as the state is nowe not impossible to be agayne if there may be nowe one bishop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one bishop ouer all the Churche so that in trauelling with an Archbishop he hathe brought foorth a Pope Io. Whitgifte The selfe same reason you had before and I answere it nowe as I did then The Supra cap. 3. diuis 31. 32. 33. causes by me there alleaged be sufficient to proue the difference betwixt the gouernment of a Prince and the gouernment of a Bishop And yet no man will denie but that one Prince shall better be able to gouerne one kingdome than the whole world And to affirme that the whole worlde may be conteyned in one Monarchie learned men saye is multis modis absurdissimum In diuers respectes moste absurde I bring the Cal. Inst. cap. 8. Sect. 92. example of a King bicause other writers vse the like examples in the like matter to confute suche vnlikely reasons and namely M. Caluine in the words following That which M. Doctor affirmeth of one bishop ouer one whole prouince and of one Byshop ouer the whole worlde no man will denie A warrant for the one are the examples of Timothie and Titus and the continuall practise of the Churche without contradiction in the best tymes but there is no warrant for the other of any credite or sufficience béeing onely in the moste corrupt tyme of the Churche and contrarie to all former examples and Canons You say if the whole Churche be in one prouince c. I say that if the skie fall you may catche larkes as the common prruerbe is Moreouer if it were possible so to be as nowe it is not then it were no absurditie the Bishop of that Prouince still to remayne Bishop of the same But what moueth you to suche straunge suppositions The replyers if turned vpon him self I might aswell say if the whole Churche were in one Citie or Towne or Parishe as it was in Ierusalem after Christes ascention and one Bishop or Pastor might be ouer that citie or towne or parishe then one Bishop or Pastor shoulde be ouer the The Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince nowe whole Churche and so you likewise in trauelling with a pastor to be in one Churche at the length bring foorth a Pope But doe you not knowe that the Churche of Christ is dispersed throughout the whole worlde and can not nowe be shut vp in one kingdome muche lesse in one prouince excepte you will become Donatistes He that is not wilfully blinde may sée into what streights you are driuen when you are constreyned to vtter suche impossibilities for reasons Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. But he sayth that an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole pro ince generally but in cases exempted and so may doe it more easily But he shoulde haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of Archbishop and bishop to be in all those things whiche other ministers are and that beside those offices he giueth them particular charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preache pray and minister the sacraments in his parishe the office of archebishop and bishop is to doe the same and more too in the whole prouince or dioces And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duetie in his parishe than for an archebyshop or bishop to discharge their dueties in any one parish of their prouince or dioces for they haue in euery parishe more to doe and greater charge than the minister of the parishe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the parishes of their prouinces or dioces Io. Whitgifte I speake of the office of gouernment and so be my words Euery particular parish hath a particular pastor to preache pray and mynister the sacraments The Bishop hath to procure so much as lyeth in him that all things be done in his Dioces according to the lawes orders of the Church The Archbishop hath not only to sée that y e Bishops do their duties but to helpe thē in reforming that which by thēselues they cannot do The office of preaching they exercise where when they sée it most conuenient The whole charge of preaching of gouerning resteth neyther vpon the
cōmon welth honor of the Prince than they be nowe in state and cōdition wherin they remain Bishops shal not now need to liue by pilling polling Amb. de dig sacerd August lib. 3. aduer Permenìa as it séemed they did in Cyprians tyme for he complaineth therof Ser. de lapsis Nor as some did in Ambrose or Augustins They haue God be thanked liuing sufficient with out any such vnlawfull meanes and I doubt not but if their expenses shall be compared with their predecessors it shall appeare that they be according to the proportion that God hath limitted vnto them But an eye dimmed with malice or bente to the spoyle can sée nothing that may hinder the desired purpose God roote out of the hartes of men such rauening affections and gréedie desires Of the Communion Booke Tract 9. The generall faultes examined vvhervvith the publike Seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 2. Before I come to speak of prayers I wil treat of the faults that arecomitted almost throughout the whole Lyturgie and publike Seruice of the Churche of Englande whereof one is that whiche is often obiected by the authors of the Admonition that the forme of it is taken from the Churche of Antichriste as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte and mangled as the moste of the prayers the maner of ministring the Sacramentes of mariage of burial Confirmation translated as it were worde for worde sauing that the grosse errours and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes and ceremonies whiche they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they conteyned nothyng whiche is not agreable to the worde of God whiche I would they did not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest Churches both Iewish and Christian doe permit vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies beyng neyther commaunded of God neyther suche as there maye not as good as they and rather better be established Io. Whitgifte In these woords are conteined two false principles the one is that the forme and manner of prayer vsed in the Churche of England is taken from the churche of Antichrist the other that it is not lawful to vse the same formes of prayer and ceremonies that the Papists did this latter I haue already proued to be otherwise in the beginning Tract 7. cap. 5 diui 3. 4. c. where I spake of Ceremonies and intend hereafter to answere such arguments as shal be vsed to proue the contrarie the first wil appeare to be most vntrue being manifest that such things as we now vse in the booke of Common prayer though some of them haue ben vsed in the time of Papistrie were appointed in the church by godlie and learned men before the Pope was Antichrist or the Church of Rome greatly corrupted as the reading of the Epistle and gospell whiche is of verie long continuance in the Church euen whilest the church of Rome was as yet in the principall points Reading of gospels and epistles verie auncient of doctrine pure being also chosen places of scriptures apt for the time and moste to edifying which no honest heart and godly disposed person can discommende If in the administration of the sacraments celebration of mariage burying of the dead confirmation those thyngs that are good and profitable be reteyned and the grosse errours and Things bused maye be vsed imp eties being taken a waye manifest impieties taken away as you say they be why do you then on this sort trouble y e church for vsing that which is good refusing that which is euill Is Papistrie so able to infect the word of God godlie prayers and profitable Ceremonies that they may not be vsed in the Church reformed the errours and impieties being taken away Why doe we call our churches reformed Churches rather than newly builded or as it were wholly transformed but that we reteyne whatsoeuer we fynd to The churche is reformed not transformed be good refuse or reforme that which is euill But of these matters more is to be spoken as occasion is offered Hytherto you vse but woordes whiche haue no weyghte without good and sounde reasons Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 3. For the worde of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the Apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrarywise the Iewes to the Gentiles and by that the wisedome of God hath thought it a good way to kepe his people from the infection of idolatrie and superstition to seuer them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therfore hath forbidden them to doe things which are in themselues verie lawfull to be don Io. Whitgifte What you haue spoken in any place of your booke cōcerning this matter is there answered wher it is spokē but you haue not as yet to my remēbrāce any wher shewed y t God euer hath forbidden his people to do things in themselues very lawfull to be done Tract 7. cap. 5 bycause the same were vsed by Idolaters I haue before proued the contrary both by the manifest words of the scripture and by the testimonie of Saint Augustine and diuers other learned writers Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 4. Now I will adde this further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuer them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuer them from any as from the Egyptians amongst whome they liued and from those nations which were next neighbours vnto them bycause from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant and perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to kepe his people from idolatrie it followeth that the religion of God should not only in matter and substance but also as farre as may be informe and fashion differ from that of the idolaters and especially the Papists which are round about vs amongst vs. (*) An vnadu sed 〈◊〉 For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are arre off than to the papists which are so neare Io. Whitgifte The Egyptians and Idolatrous gentiles neither worshipped nor preteuded to The Gētiles and Papists not like in all respects worship the God of Israell and therefore no maruell though in rites and ceremonies they were vtterly seuered from them but the Papists eyther worship or pretend to worship the same God which we do and therefore there is no suche cause in all pointes of rites and ceremonies to differ from them And it is most vntrue that The Iewes and the Gentiles in some respect agreed in ceremo ies God so seuered his people from the Egyptians or other nations néere adioyning that they had nothing common with them or no ceremonies like vnto theirs for they were like in many things touching the externall forme The Gentiles had
and naught so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigall man to come to liberalitie but by 〈◊〉 no way for the glutton to come to temperance but by pyning himselfe no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true feare and loue of God but by des eration 〈◊〉 way to come rom poperie to the Gospell but by confusion and 〈◊〉 of all good ord r and gouernment Is this diuinitie In déede uch 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a prophane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospell The ordinarie meanes whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e The ordinarie meanes to draw men from 〈◊〉 from an e treme to a meane is the diligent reading and hearing o the word of God ioyned with earnest and heartie prayers The best way therefore to bring a dronken man to sobrietie is not to perswade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting but to lay before him out of the word of God the horriblenes of that sinne and the punishment due vnto the same The similitude of a croked sticke is a t to set foorth so croked a precept but not so apt to make manifest the way vnto vertue But I may not blame you for vsing and allowing those prophane rules whiche you so aptly follow and so commonly practise in all your doings Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the Church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the religion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians ▪ neyther the Lords day neyther the Pentecost and if they knew them they woulde Lib. de Ido latria haue nothing to do with them for they would be afrayd least they shoulde seeme Christians but we are not afraid to be called heathen Io. Whitgifte Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles togither with them remayning in their wicked abuse as it appeareth in the words that go before which are as followeth Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria sunt neomenia feriae aliquādo a Deo dilectae Saturnalia lanuariae Brumae Matro ales frequentantur munera commeant strenae consonant lusus conuiuia constrepunt O melior fides nationum in suam sectam c. The feasts of Saturne of Ianus of Bacchus and of Iuno are frequented of vs vnto whome the sabbats new mones and holydays sometimes beloued of God are straunge gifts and presents are very ri e sportes and banquets keepe a sturre O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect c. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alledged against those that frequent the popish solemnities togither with them come to their Churches communicate with them in worshipping their idols and yet professe the knowledge of the Gospell but it can by no meanes be drawen vnto such as withdrawing themselues from suche kind of communicating with them do in their seuerall Churches vse those good things well which the Papists haue abused as the scripture the sacraments prayers and suche like Wherefore you do not well to alledge Tertullians words omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning A man being pr sent at Idolatrous seruice must néedes giue great suspition that he is an Idolater and therfore no man ought to be present at it which in heart condemneth it But as there is no honest and godly man which can call our seruice Idolatrous or Papisticall so is ther none that can suspect vs to be Idolaters or Papists The whole world knowing that both our practise and profession is to the contrary Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperoure speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter saythe that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull companie of the Iewes And a little a ter he saith that it is most absurd and against reason that the Iewes shou de vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doc rine And in another Socrat. li. cap. 9. place it is sayd after this sort It is conuement so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation Io. Whitgifte Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter which he would not haue obserued according to the manner of the Iewes and yet you know that the Churches in Asia following the examples of Philip and Iohn the Apostles and of Polycarpus and many other godly men did celebrate that feast togyther with the Iewes as it is to be seene in the fifth booke o Eusebius eccle history Wherfore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. importance before it was for quietnesse sake determined by the Churche neyther doth Constantine in eyther of the places meane that we should haue nothing common with the Iewes but only that we should haue no suche thinges common with them as are repugnant to Christian libertie or to the truth of the Gospell or such as may cō rme them in their obstinacie and error For if his meaning had bin generally and simply then mighte he haue vtterly abrogated the feast of Easter being no commaundement sor it in the new testament As therefore Cōstantine thought that the Churche had not the feast of Easter common with the Iewes not bycause the thing it selfe was abrogated but the ay altered Euen so the Churche of Englande cannot be said to haue any thing common with the P pisticall Church though it reteine something vsed in the same bycause the manner is changed and certayne circumstances altered or whereas before it was in a straunge tongue nowe it is in a tongue knowne and whereas it was before abused and mixt with superstition now it is rightly vsed and purged from all corruption And therefore although the thing remaine yet bycause the circumstances be altered it is not the same no more than our Sabbat is the Iewes Sabbat and our Easter the Iewes Easter Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Councels although they did not obserue themselues always in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept this consideration continually in making their lawes that they woulde haue the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies The Co ncell of Laodicea which was afterward confirmed by the sixt generall Councell decreed Tom. 1. con Lao. can 38 that the Christians should not take vnleauened bread of the Iewes or communicate with their 〈◊〉 Also it was decreed in another Councell that they shoulde not decke their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar can 7 leaues and greene boughes because the Paganes did vse so
and that they shoulde not rest from their labours those days that the Paganes did that they shoulde not keepe the firste day of euery moneth as they did Io. Whitgifte What is all this to your purpose who saith that eyther we must vse all thinges that the Iewes and gentiles did or that the Church hath not authoritie to take order therein as shall be thought most conuenient the Churche at this time did perceiue inconueniences in these customes and ceremonies and therefore did by ordinaris authoritie abrogate them In like manner and vpon like considerations hathe thys Church of England abandoned great numbers of Papisticall rites and ceremonies but bycause it refuseth some may it therefore reteine none or bycause it reiecteth those which be wicked and vnprofitable may it not therefore kéepe still suche as be godly and perteine to order and decencie The Canon of the Councell of Laodicea is this Non 〈◊〉 a Iudaeis azyma accipere Canon 38. aut communicare impietatibus eorum That we ought not to take vnleauened bread of the ewes or communicate with their impietie And surely I maruell what you can cōclude of it for no man as I suppose doth thinke that we may vse ceremonies proper to the Iewes and abrogated by Christ or that it is lawful to communicate with theyr impietie That Canon which you call 73. of the Councell of Bracar is not to be found in any such Councell for there are not so many Canons in any Councell so called but the Canon that you meane as I thinke is among the Canons collected out of the Gréeke Synods by S. Martin and in number 74. The words be these Let it not be lawfull to vse wicked obseruations of the calends and to keepe the gentiles holy days nor to decke houses with bays or greene oughes for all this is an heathenish obseruation To what purpose do you alleadge this canon what doth it proue Christians are inhibited from obseruing days and times and other friuolous superstitions after the maner of the Gentiles But what is this to godly prayers grounded vpon the word of God or comely and decent orders and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. vlt. Another Councell decreed that the Christians should not celebrate (*) A manifest vntruth feasts on the birth days of the mar yrs bycause it was the manner of the heathen whereby it appeareth that both of singular Afric conc ca. 17. men and of Councels in making or abolishing of ceremonies heede hath bin takē that the Christians should not be like vnto the idolaters no not in those things which of themselues are moste indifferent to be vsed or not vsed Io. Whitgifte It is maruellous to behold your dealing and to consider how vnder the pretence of auoiding I know not what in reciting the words of such Authors as you alledge you delude the Reader with an vntrue sense as it euidently appeareth in this cannon of the Councell of Afrike the words whereof be these This is also to be desired of Con. Afric Can. 27. the Emperours that such feasts as contrary to the commaundements of God are kept in many places which haue bin drawen from the errour of the Gētiles so that now Christiās are compelled by the paganes to celebrate them whereby another persecution in the tyme of Christian Emperours seemeth couertly to be raysed might be by their commaundemēt forbidden and the peyne layd vpon cities and possessions prohibited especially seing they are not afrayd to cōmit such things in some cities euen vpon the birth days of blessed martyrs and in the holy places Vpon which days also whiche is a shame to tell they vse most wicked dauncings throughout the streates so that the honour of matrones and the chast shamefastnesse of many women which come deuoutly vnto that holyday is by their lasciuious iniuries inuaded in so much that those religious meetings are almost shunned In these words the heathenish feasts of the gentiles which are against the commaundement of God being full of impietie and vncleanesse are forbidden to be vsed of Christians in the birth days of martyrs or at any other time How this can be applyed to your purpose I know not except that you count all that for fish that cōmes o nette Now let the Reader consider what weightie reasons you haue hitherto vsed against our order of prayer nay rather how vnaptly you haue alledged both your rea sons and authorities And whereas you séeme to insinuate that the things you haue spoken of be most indifferent that is nothing so for the most of those thinges prohibited by these canons be things least indifferent as it may appeare by that which is already spoken of them and euen in the very canons themselues Chap. 1. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Lin. 1. It were not hard to shew the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned o in this Admonition as for example in the ceremonies of prayer whiche is here to be 〈◊〉 Lib. de anima we reade that Tertullian woulde not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed bycause the Idolaters dyd so but hauing shewed thys in generall to bee the pollicie of God firste and of his people afterward to put as much difference as can be 〈◊〉 betweene the people of God and others which are not I shall not neede to shew the same in the particulars Io. Whitgifte If it wer not too hard I doubt not but that you woulde saye something more in the matter than you haue done I know not to what purpose you haue alleadged Tertul ian for not sitting after prayer c. except your meaning be that we shall not knéele in praying bycause the Papists did vse that gesture Howbeit there is no such thing to be found in that booke of Tertullian Wherefore you are to carelesse in alleadging your Authors and giue to much credite as it should séeme to other mens collections In his booke de oratione He reproueth certaine that vsed to sit after prayer alledging for their Author Hermas to whome the booke called Pastor is ascribed he shesheth that no such thing can be gathered of Hermas his words and further addeth that this gesture is to be reproued not onely bycause idolaters did vse it in worshipping their idols but also bycause it is an vnreuerent gesture His words be these Eò Tertullian apponitur irreuerentiae crimen c. Herevnto is added the fault of vnreuerence that might be vnderstoode euen of the gentiles themselues if they were wise for it is an vnreuerente thing to sit in the sight and against the face of him whome thou wouldest especially reuerence and worship how much more is this deede most prophane in the sight of the liuing God his Angell being as yet present at this prayer Truly your generall reasons hitherto vsed are neyther of sufficient pollicie or mighte to deface a booke with so greate wisedome learning and zeale
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
he hath once vttered And their ambition also is no lesse heere reproued which goe about to bring all Churches vnto the forme of their order and discipline and crie out that there is no discipline where all things are not correspondent to their orders and statutes but these men receyue a iust rewarde of their arrogancie when as they which come from them to other countreys do goe beyonde all other in sausy malopartnesse neyther bring they any thing with them from home but a vayne and vntollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide that they shoulde be corrected by nye admonition of others c. Beware of ambitious morositie and take héede of a new Popedome I thinke no Churche is so bounde to the example of an other but that in externall rites and ceremonies there is frée libertie giuen vnto it to appoynt what shall be for the presente state and time moste conuenient You may not binde vs to followe any particular Churche neyther ought you to consent to any suche newe seruitu Chap. 1. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 3. An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande for that it maynteyneth an vnpreaching ministerie And so consequently an vnlawfull ministerie I say it maynteyneth no somuche in that it appoynteth a number of Psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be read which may occupie the tyme which is to be spent in preaching wherein notwithstanding it ough to haue beene more wary considering that the Diuell vnder this colour of long prayer dyd thus in the kingdome of Antichrist banishe preaching (*) 〈◊〉 à non 〈◊〉 ▪ I say not so muche in that poynt as for that it requireth necessarily nothing to be done by the minister which a childe of tenne yeare olde can not oe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewith the booke contenteth it selfe Io. Whitgifte This is a straunge collection that the booke of Common prayer maynteyneth an preaching ministery bicause it appoynteth a number of Psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be read whiche may occupie the time that is to be spent in preaching Would you haue prea ching onely and neyther reading nor praying in the publike congregation or doe you thinke that the chapters and prayers that are read occupie too long time or are you persuaded that there commeth no profite by rea ing and praying If you meane the first you haue the examples of the Churches in all places and at all tymes agaynst you if you meane the 〈◊〉 the time is not so long that is spent in praying and reading but that there may be preaching also the longest tyme if there b no Communion is not more than an houre and can you spende that houre better than in praying and hearing the scriptures read If you meane the thirde I shall haue oc asion to speake more of it héereafter But you say it dothe not so muche maynteyne an vnpreaching ministerie in that T. C. seeketh to deface the bo ke without reason poynt as for that it requireth nothing necessarily to be done by the minister whiche a childe of ten yeres olde can not doe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewith the booke contenteth it selfe It requireth of him besides playne and distincte reading the administration of the Sacramentes and maye a childe of ten yeres olde doe that also Who séeth not that you are of purpose set to deface the booke thoughe it be with chyldishe reasons Bicause a chylde may reade the booke dothe it therefore maynteyne an vnpreaching ministerie you mighte as well saye that bicause a chylde of ten yeres olde can reade the Byble translated into Englishe therefore the Byble translated into Englishe maynteyneth an vnpreaching ministerie This argument is à non caus Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 104. Sect. 3. Neyther can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers for it may be easily answered that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchaungeable lawes of God whych be that none may be made minister of the Church whych can not teache that none minister the sacraments whyche doe not preache for although it might be graunted whych thing I would not denie no not when there are inoughe sufficient ministers that they may appoynt some godly graue man which can oe nothing else but reade to be a reader in the Churche yet that may not be graunted that they may make of one that can do nothing but reade a minister of the Gospell or one which may haue power to minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte Where is that vnchaungeable lawe of God that none may minister the sacraments Some may minister the sacraments which do no preache C rysost which doe not preache what Scripture or authoritie haue you for it Chrysostome Hom. 3. 1. Cor. 1. vpon these words Non enim misit me Christus vt baptizarem c. saythe thus He sayth not I was forbidden but I am not sent to doe this but to doe that whiche was more necessarie Euangelizare enim perp ucorum est baptizare autem cuiuslibe modò fungatur sacerdotio for few can preach the Gospel but euery man may baptise that i a priest And Ambrose vpon the same words and chapter sayth thus Non omni qui baptizat Ambrose idoneus est euangelizare verba enims lennia sunt quae dicuntur in Baptismate c. Euery one which baptizeth is not apte to preache the Gospell for the words that are spoken in baptisme are vsuall to conclude the Apostle Peter commaunded other to baptize Cornelius neyther dyd he vouchsafe to doe it himselfe other ministers beeing present c. Peter Martyr writing vpon the same words of the Apostle sayth likewise Therefore Peter 〈◊〉 the office of baptizing was committed to euery one in the Churche but not the office of preaching Neyther is it to be doubted but the Apostles themselues would haue baptized if there had lacked other ministers But seeing there was many whō they might winne to the Gospell by preaching they committed them to other to be baptized So sayth M. Caluine also vpon the same words Fewe there were to whome the office Caluine of preaching was committed but to baptize was committed to many c. Zuinglius in his booke de Baptismo of this matter speaketh thus The disciples administred Zuinglius the externall baptisme once with doctrine and the spirite for Christ taught and they did baptize as it appeareth Ioh. 4. And Paule sayde Christ sente me not to baptize but to preache therefore some taught and other some baptized Musculus also in his common places declareth that In some Churches some were Musculus in oc com de c na 〈◊〉 admitted to minister the Sacraments that were not admitted to preache And he dothe not disallowe that maner but alloweth it And M. Beza lib conf
cap. 5. sayth That it was the office of Pastors and Doctors generally Beza to dispense the worde and to pray vnder the whiche also we comprehend the administration of sacraments and the celebration of mariage according to the cōtinuall custome of the Church although deacons in these things oftentimes supplied the office of pastors And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Ioh. 4. verse 2. So doe other learned men in like maner who also bring for their purpose that which is written Tim. 5. Qui bene praesunt presbyteri c. So that you may vnderstande that learned men be of this iudgement that some may be admitted to administer the sacraments which are not admitted to preache I knowe it to be true that there may be some appoynted to reade in the Churche whiche be not admitted eyther to preache or to administer the Sacramentes For so it was in the primitiue Churche as it is to be séene in auncient stories and wr ters But bicause you would haue nothing vsed in the Churche especially no office appoynted withoute a commaundement in the worde of GOD I praye you tell where you haue eyther commaundemente or example for suche kinde of Readers I doe but demaunde this that the Reader maye vnderstande what libertie you chalenge vnto your selfe of allowing and disalowing what you list and when you list without that warrant of Gods worde to the whiche you so streightly hinde all other Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Page 104. Sect. 4. Besyd s that how can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerie men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roomes which are not able when there are numbers also which are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministerie vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to pleade want of able ministers for this do be ministerie which is altogither vnlawfull yet would this plea neuer be good vntyll suche tyme as bothe those were restored whiche are put out and all other soughte oorth and called vpon which are fitte for that purpose Io. Whitgifte You know what was before alleaged out of the confession of the Churches of Helvetia that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheards in the olde Church did sometimes Confes. Heli more profite the Church than the great exquisite or fine or delicate but a little too proude learning of some others A great sorte thinke too well of themselues be of nature vnquiet Unquiet natures must be remoued suche of necessitie if by no meanes they can be kept in order must be remoued for the Church may not for their sake be rent torne in péeces neyther muste you that so wel allow of discipline burden other men with it cast it off your selues There is none in this Churche of Englande remoued from his ministerie but vpon iust causes and ministers must be subiect to lawes and orders Those that be willing to come into the ministerie lacke no prouoking nor mouing The ministerie hindred by whome thervnto if they be knowne but it is you your company which labour by all meanes possible to dehorte men from the ministerie persuading them that the calling is not ordinary and lawfull And surely your meaning is to make this Church destitute of ministers that it may of necessitie be driuen to admit your platforme and gouernment But you shall neuer be able to bring it to passe the more you labour the more you are detected And those wise men that séeke the truthe in sinceritie of conscience will espie your purposes dayly more and more and be moued to a iuste mis iking of them The restitution of those that be put out of the ministerie I think is soone obteyned if they will submit themselues to the order of the Church which they ought of duetie to doe bothe the lawes of God and man requiring the same Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. vlt. Agayne it can not be sayd iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntil such tyme as better may be gotten for if the Churche could procure able ministers shoulde desire that they myght be ordeyned ouer them they can not obteyne that considering that these reading ministers haue a free holde and an estate for terme of their lyues in those Churches of the whyche they are suche ministers so that by this meanes the sheepe are not onely committed to an Idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwyse than Augustine speaketh in that a not preachyng minister hath entraunce into the Church but the doore also is shut vpon hym and sparred agaynst any able minister that might happily be founde out Io. Whitgifte And would you so gladly intrude your selues into some of their roomes surely I beléeue it it is not vnknowē but that some of you haue labored to do it Wel I hau before tolde you the iudgement of the reformed Churches touching such ministers as be not able to preach béeing otherwise vertuous and godly I haue also set downe the opinion of diuers learned and godly men concerning ministers admitted to minister the sacraments whiche notwithstanding can not preache If any man vse him sel e in his ministerie leau ly or otherwise than beseemeth him hys estate for terme of lyfe is not so sure but that he maye be dispossessed of the same Otherwyse if he vse him selfe honestly and as it becommeth him thoughe he haue not the gifte of preaching whiche notwithstanding is to be wyshed God forbid that eyther you or any man else shoulde seeke to displace him that you might enioy the roome your selues And surely if the minister were but tenant at will or of Courtesie as you would séeme to haue him his state shoulde be moste slauishe and mis rable and he and his family ready to goe a begging when soeuer he displeaseth his parishe If you had tolde me where Augustine speaketh that I shoulde haue quickely let you vnderstand his meaning but his bookes be many large the sentēce you alleage shorte and therefore it were to muche for me to search it out Moreouer it improueth nothing nowe in question But with what face can you loute and iest at me for once or twice not quoting the chapter or leafe your selfe so often offending in quoting neyther chapter leafe booke nor tome Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There is a third fault which likewise appeareth almost in y e whole body of this seruice Lyturgie of Englād that is that the pro ite which might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped whereof the cause is for that he whiche readeth is not in some place hearde and in the moste places not vnderstanded of the people throughe the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
occasion they may speake as I haue said in my Answer Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 2. Nowe if the speache be a true messenger of the hearte I perceyue master Doctor is of 〈◊〉 this mind that he would haue women preach in the Church of England at this time for he cannot denie and he also confesseth it sometimes that this is the time of necessitie and indeede it must be needes an extreme necessitie that driueth to make one man Pastor of two churches especially so farre distant that driueth to make men whiche are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of God Therefore this being a time of necessitie by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neyther none other can or will preach that then women may preach but in the most churches of this realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the leaste if they be able may preach the Gospell and consequently minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte You wander from the matter and do but séeke occasion to quarel there is no such necessitie in this Church God be thanked as M. Doctor speaketh of for there is none in anye place or corner thereof that be ignorante of Christ or do not professe the name of Christ In all places they haue the scriptures red vnto them whiche conteine matter sufficient to saluation and therefore there is no cause why women should take vpon them to preach in the congregation neyther doth M. Doctor meane any such thing as you know very well but that it is your pleasure to dallie He meaneth In what time a womā may preach Christ. such places where all be infidells where they haue neither heard of Christ nor haue his word neither yet any other meanes to come by the knowledge of the same which is no where in this Church Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Women that may (h) 1. Co. 14. 34 1. Tim. 2. 11 not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and that in a priuate house Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 186. Sect. vlt. You say women that may not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the sacrament of baptisme and that in a priuate house And to proue that women may not speake in a congregation you quote 1. Cor. 14. 1. Ti. 2. whereas you should rather haue proued that women may not in time of necessitie minister baptisme for that is the question and not the other Women may speake in the congregation if necessary occasion do require as M. Caluin teacheth in his institutions Chap. 13. Sect. 32. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 3. In the. 187. Page he citeth M. Caluine in the. 13. Chap. Section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein (*) An argument of your ignorance I maruell what he meaneth so to alleadge M. Caluine continually he alleadgeth the. 13. Chap. and no booke as though he had written but one booke and indeede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any booke of his institutions or many other place throughout his whole works as I am perswaded If this fault had bin but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bin the Printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he gyueth great suspicion that eyther some body hath mocked him with these places or else he would abuse others and especially him that should answere his booke setting him to seeke that he shoulde neuer finde Io. Whitgifte You pleade ignorance of such an edition of M. Caluines institutions but it is bycause you cannot answer the place for other places which I haue in like manner alleaged for the which you might haue any colour of answering you haue found out at the first yea and this selfe same place now in question but when there is no shifte to auoyd that which is alledged then you quarell with the booke and suspect that eyther Pag. 19. Sect. some body hath mocked him or that he would abuse others c. No no T. C. I thanke god I vse no such dealing I do alledge nothing which I haue not red in the Authors themselues I study not to encounter the Answer for eyther I set downe the whole place or else quote it so that it may easily be found Touching this booke of institutions of M. Caluines which I now follow I haue spoken before and declared why I do vse it rather than any other I haue laboured it noted it I am acquainted with it and belike I red it before you knew whether there was any such booke or no and if there be no suche booke of M. Caluines institutions only deuided into chapters and sections and not into bookes I will giue you all M. Caluines works bycause you so complayne of lacke of bookes But to come to the thing it selfe M. Caluine in that place speaking of such lawes and orders in the Church as are not perpetuall but alterable as occasion serueth vseth this commaundement of S. Paules touching the silence of women in the Churche for one example to make the matter more manifest his wordes be these Or is the commaundement touching hir silence such as it may not be broken without wickednesse Chap. 1 Sect. 32. And alittle after Et est vbi loqui nō minus opportunum illi sit quà m alibi tacere And there is a time and place when and where it is as fit for hir to speake as else where to holde ir peace These words be plaine and do sufficiently answer all that you can obiect to the contrary Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluines iudgement what it is of womens preaching it may appeare by that he 4. Li. institut cap. 15. Sect. 20. will not by no meanes no not in time of necessitie as they tearme it suffer eyther woman or any lay man to baptise or minister any sacrament and therefore not to preach Io. Whitgifte I doubt not of M. Caluines iudgement in that poynt and yet I knowe other learned and notable men that thinke otherwise and namely Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo neyther do I go about to teach that women may preach I tell you onely what extreame necessitie maye extraordinarily permitte withoute iust cause of reprehension Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. vlt. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the Euangelist whiche are all called prophetesses tor I thinke M. Doctor meaneth these examples as for them I say it will be hard for to shew that they euer prophecied or taughte openly in any publike me ng or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde do sometimes not being vnder any
authoritie he woulde be loth to reiecte I am sure least he shoulde lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the olde writers which he hunteth so diligently after in this booke wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonitiō so great contemners And it is not hard to shew the same in twentie places more as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke where as there are diuers things not to be followed of the ministers now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the ministers that nowe are as they were then eyther to the. 12. or 70. disciples Io. Whitgifte And of those circumstances wherof there is no comm̄aundement howe proue you whiche be indifferent whych be vnlawful or not conueniēt to be followed which necessary why is it not as necessarie by this example of Iohn that they shoulde be baptized in Ioroane or that they shoulde confesse their synnes before they be baptized as it is that they shoulde bée publikely baptised If you take vppon you to interprete without authoritie and grounde ofscripture it is méete that you should shew verie good and substanciall reason I demaunde the lyke touching the places alleadged out of the Acts where you reteyn what you list refuse what you list alter as you list as though you were lorde ouer the Scripture and had omnia iura tam diuina quà m humana in scrinio pectoris all lawes as wel diuine as humane in the coffer of your breast lyke to the Pope But to these places of the Actes I haue answered in their due place Your s ffes make not your cause one whit the better Of twentie places you recite not one And of diuers things some indifferent some not to be followed other some comaunded to all ministers spoken to the twelue or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none speaking without ground or reason is but pratling I knowe that in one action there be diuers circumstances of diuers conditions and natures but if any of them be necessarie at all tymes to be obseiued the Necessarie cir cumstāces are commaunded same is conteyned in some commaundement in the Scriptures and therfore well sayth Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius is then strong when as we are able to shewe that that whiche is doone is done according to some rule or commaundement Now if you can shew me either rule or commaundement in scripture that vppon no occasion we may preache or baptise in priuate families I yelde vnto you What examples doe proue without commaundement But if you can not this doe your examples proue what was then done and what in the lyke cause may be doone nowe but they make not any generall and perpetuall rule Nowe touchyng these and suche lyke circumstances in my opinion M Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo maketh a full resolution which may satisfye any reasonable Zuinglius man His wordes be these There is here three errours about circumstances that is the elementes of the worlde The first is of the tyme for they thoughte that baptisme was not rightly administred except it were in the fyrst day for the tyme is of no greate weight so that we take diligent heed of this that none rashly or negligently differre it longer than is conuenient for by this occasion it may come to passe that the baptisme of children might be taken away An other errour is touching the circūstance of the person for they thought that baptisme could not be administred of no other than of a priest when as notwithstanding euery man may minister it euen a woman if necessitie require the thirde errour is in the circumstance of the place bicause it is not necessarie that the insant shoulde only be baptized in the Churche Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptisme was ministred in Cornelius house Actes 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacramentes To the. 1. Cor. II. it is answered before Surely this church of Englande Baptisme an house dothe not permit the sacramentes to be ministred in priuate places except there be a congregation and then not vsually but only in certaine cases T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1. An other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of his arguments For S. Paules baptizing in the house of the Iayler had bene more fit for him for vnto his place it may be easyly answered that Cornelius hauing so greate a familie as it is lyke he had and besydes that dyuers souldiours vnderneathe him and further his frendes and his acquayntance whiche he had called had a competente number and as many as would make a congregation and as could co mmodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to bothe these examples and other such lyke as that S. Paule baptized in the house of Stephana is easy For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the minister nor for the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses whiche otherwyse they would haue done in open places and then those houses whiche receyue the congregation are not as I haue shewed for the time to be counted priuate houses and further in places where the gospell hath not bene receyued nor no churche gathered but one onely householde embracing the Gospel I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where shoulde the Ministers preache or minister the Sacramentes more conueniently than in that house where those professours of the gospell be nowe to drawe this into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the churche and congregation standeth of diuers houscholdes is a token of greate want of iudgement in shuffelyng those things together whyche for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be myngled Io. Whitgifte The example of Peters baptizing in Cornelius house is sufficient to proue that then it was lawful to baptize in priuate families the example of Paul baptizyng the iaylour and his familie proueth the same But it ministreth a more readie answere to a quareller bicause Paul then being prisoner had not such libertie to make cheise of his place as Peter had But they are both verie fit examples for my purpose the bignesse of Cornelius familie or the smalnesse is not materiall to this question for we speake of the place not of the persons And whereas you say that in Cornelius house there was a competent number and as many as would make a congregation I answer that so it is with vs when baptisme is ministred in priuate families for wheresoeuer Math. 18 two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ there is a congregation To your seconde answere of the difference of tyme bicause that was in tyme of
persecution c. I say that as persecution was then a cause why baptisme as vsually mistred in priuate houses so necessitie is now y t cause why the same is ministred some tymes in priuate families Neither doe I mayntein or allow the administring of the sacraments in priuate families to be vsual or without vrgent cause but only vpon extreme necessitie of sicknesse peril of death such like In which cases as neuer any lerned man misliked ministring of the sacraments in such places so are not you able to shew either scripture doctor or reson to y t coÌ„trary whatsoeuer you say of y e tune of persecutioÌ„ touching y e matter y t same may be said of the time of necessitie also But here I would haue the Reader to note y t you are now driuen to confesse a difference in the Churche betwixte the tyme of persecution and the tyme of prosperitie and that to be conuenient in the one which is not conuenient for the other whiche distinction and diuersitie of tymes you would not before acknowledge to make any difference in the election of ministers and gouernment of the Churche and yet the case is all one Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should fyrst proue that priuate CoÌ„munion c. are agreeable to the written word of god Answere to the Admonition Pag. 152. Sect. 2. If you meane by priuate Communion the Communion ministred to Of the communion ministred in priuate places one alone there is no such allowed in the boke of Common prayers but if you call it priuate bicause it is ministred sometimes in priuate houses to sicke persons Then haue we the example of Christe who ministred the Supper in a priuate house and inner parlour Mark 14. Luke 22. Math. 26. we haue also the example of the Apostles themselues who did minister the supper in priuate houses especially yf that place be vnderstanded of the supper whiche is in the seconde of the Acts and before alleadged of you to proue that common and vsuall bread ought to be in the Supper Likewise of the primitiue church as appeareth in the seconde apologie of Iustinus Martyr Tertull. de Corona militis and others T. C. Page 112. Sect. 2. And in the page 152. he bringeth other reasons to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in a priuate house wherof the fyrste is that our Sauiour Christe celebrated his Supper in a priuate house and in an inner parlour the reason whereof is easyly to be knowne for the lawe of God ordeyned that euery housholder in his house shoulde eate the passouer with his owne familie If it were so great as that they myght well eate vp a whole lambe Io. Whitgifte That is a reason why Christe did eate the passouer in a priuate house but it is no reason why he did celebrate his Supper there in lyke maner Wherefore my reason holdeth as yet Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 3. Our sauiour Christ therfore with his housholde obserueth this law and for bicause he woulde declare that the passouer had his ende and that his holy Sacrament should come in place therof he doth foorthwith celebrate his supper in the same place which if he had not done neither could he haue done it at al the houre of his apprehension then approching neyther should it so lyuely haue appeared that eyther the passouer was abolished or that the Supper came in place of it beeyng celebrated both at an other tyme and in an other place Io. Whitgifte Our Sauiour Christes example of instituting and ministring his supper in a priuate familie giuing afterwarde no commaundement to the contrarie is a manifest proofe that the place is not of the substance of the sacramente and that vpon occasion it may be ministred in a priuate house You shewe a reason why Chryste at that Unnecessarie proofe tyme and in that place did minister his Supper but you shewe no reason why wée may not in lyke maner vpon necessarie occasion celebrate the Communion in the lyke place Chap. 4. the. 6. diusion T. C. pag. 112. sect vlt. For the celebrating of the Supper in houses in the Apostles tymes and in Iustinus and Tertullians tymes which were tymes of persecution I haue spoken before where also I declared that suche houses for the tyme are not priuate but publike Io. Whitgifte This answere is as fitte for me as it is for you for admit that the Sacraments may be administred in priuate families in the case of necessitie and I aske no mâ—â—â— For if persecution be a necessarie cause why is not sickenesse and perill of dâ—â—th so in lyke maner agayne if a priuate house be no priuate but a publike place when for the feare of persecution the Sacramentes be ministred in it why is it not so lykewise when they be there ministred for extremitie of sickenesse and feare of death the reason is all one and the case of necessitie like and therfore you haue not sayde any thing agaynst me but with me Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 1. And these are his reasons wher with he would proue that the sacraments and therfore also the sacrament of Baptisme may be ministred in a priuate house Io. Whitgifte And these reasons haue you confirmed rather than confuted but to the contrarie Circumcision in priuate houses you haue shewed no reason at all and therfore these stand in ful force to the which I might adde that circumcision was celebrated in priuate families as M. Caluine truly gathereth vpon the. 58. verse of the first chapter of Luke which is a better argument to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in priuate places than you haue shewed any to the contrarie ¶ The Sacramentes ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. The fyrst Diuision Admonition Then by ministers (vv) Mat. 28. 19 1. Cor. 4. 1 only nowe by Midwyues and Deacons equally Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. That then the Sacraments wer ministred only by ministers you Whether any may minister the sacramentes besides the minister alledge the. 28. of Math. which place is answered before Likewise 1. Cor 4. Let a man so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ disposers of the mysteries of God Here is not one word for your purpose except you take mysteries for sacramentes which if you doe you are much What mystâ—ries be deceiued for by the word mysteries here he vnderstandeth the word of God and gospell of Christ as al learned writers do interprete it Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to the vnapt allegation of the. 1. Cor. 4. Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. We reade in the eight of the Actes that Philip a Deacon did baptize Philip deacon baptised Moyses wife 〈◊〉 circumcise wee reade also that Moyses wife did circumcise But where doth this Churche of Englande allowe any woman to baptize or deacon
as that whiche is not onely not fyttest to holde the people in the syncere worshypping of God but also as that which keepeth them in their former blyndnesse corrupt opinions which they haue conceyued of such holydayes Io. Whitgifte Things that be good and profitable and haue a necessarye vse tending to the Profitable thyngs must not be refused for the abuse edifying of the Churche and the worshyppyng of God are not to bée vtterly remoued for the abuses crepte in but the abuse muste be taken awaye and the thing still remayne If all things should bée abrogated bicause they were kepte of the Papistes there would bée a meruailous alteration bothe in the Churche and in the common weale But I haue shewed before howe farre this is from the truthe euen in some Tract 7. ca. 5. things inuented by Popes much more in suche things as were agréed vppon in the primitiue Church as many of the holydays were before the Popes tyranny though afterwardes greatly abused Holydayes as they be nowe vsed be rather meanes to withdrawe men not only The vse of our holydaies a stoppe to superstition from superstition of the dayes them selues but from all other kyndes of superstition whatsoeuer for then is God in the publike congregation truly worshipped the Sacramentes rightly ministred the scriptures and other godly Homilies read the worde of God faythfully preached all whiche be the chiefe and principall meanes to withdrawe men not onely from superstition but all kynde of errour likewyse Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 2. And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes as they haue bene and are daylye yet such makyng of holydayes is neuer without some greate daunger of brynging in some euyll and corrupt opinions into the myndes of men Io. Whitgifte Imaginations and gheasses may not go for reasons and I haue shewed before that the holydayes nowe obserued in the Churche of Englande bée meanes to roote euill and corrupte opinions out of the heartes of men so farre are they from ingendring the contrary Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 5. I wyll vse an example in one and that the chiefe of holydayes and most generally of longest tyme obserued in the Churche which is the feaste of Easter whiche was kept of some more dayes of some fewer Howe many thousandes are there I wyll not saye of the ignoraunt Papistes but of those also which professe the Gospell which when they haue celebrated those dayes with diligent heede taken vnto theyr lyfe and with some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the worde of God do not by and by thynke that they haue well celebrated the feaste of Easter and yet haue they thus notably deceyued them selues For Saint Paule teacheth the celebratyng of the feaste of the 1. Cor. 5. Christians Easter is not as the Iewes Easter was for certayne dayes but sheweth that wee must keepe this feaste all the dayes of our lyfe in the vnleauened bread of sinceritie and of truthe by which we see that the obseruing of the feaste of Easter for certayne dayes in the yeare doth pul out of our myndes or euer wee bee aware the doctrine of the Gospell and causeth vs to reste in that neare consyderation of our duties for the space of a fewe dayes whiche shoulde bee extended to all our lyfe Io. Whitgifte What do you condemne the feast of Easter also would you haue it abrogated The apostles obserued Easter bicause it hath bene abused do you not knowe that the Apostles them selues obserued it and the Churche euer sithence their tyme reade Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 23. and you shall finde it to be a tradition of the Apostles per vse the. 24. and 25. chapter of the same Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 29. booke you shall vnderstand by the testimony of Polycrates all the other byshops in Asia that Philip the Apostle Iohn the Euangelist Polycarpus his scholler other byshops likewyse of greatest antiquitie kept solēly the feast of Easter But why should I labour to proue that that all histories all aunciēt fathers al late wryters al learned men confesse and especially séeing that S. Augustine ad Ianu. 119. sayeth that the obseruation of Easter hath the authoritie from the scriptures and séeing also that the same feaste with others is allowed by the confession of the Churches in Heluetia The wordes of which confession be these Moreouer if Churches as they may by Christian libertie Confess Helue kepe religiouslye the remembraunce of Christe his birth circumcision passion resurrection ascention into heauen and sending his holy ghoste vnto his disciples wee well allowe it Therefore I cannot but marueyle that you so boldely without grounde for abuse sake condemne euen the feaste vsed and allowed by the Apostles and continued in the Churche without contradiction of any one worthy of credite to this daye Surely you may as well reason that the scriptures are not to be read because that heretikes haue so greatly abused them Th place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. is nothing to your purpose for though he borrows a Metaphor of the Iewes passeouer to moue the Corinthiās to purenesse and integritie of lyfe yet doth he not abrogate the feaste of Easter if he had ment any such thing as he did not yet must it haue bene vnderstanded of the Iewes passeouer not of celebration of the memorie of Christes resurrection whiche we commonlye call Easter Dothe hée that sayeth the whole lyfe of a Christian man ought to bee a perpetuall faste denye that there maye bée anye daye or tyme appoynted to faste in A Christian man muste euer serue God and worshyppe hym shall there not therefore be certayne dayes appoynted for the same This is a verye symple argument Saint Paule wylleth vs to purge out the olde leuen that we maye be a newe lumpe c. also to kepe the feaste not with olde leuen neither with the leuen of malitiousnesse c. therefore we maye not celebrate the feaste of Easter once in the yeare I denye this argument The obseruing of Easter doth rather put vs in mynde of the doctrine of the Gospell and drawe vs to a more nere consyderation of the benefites that wée haue receyued by the death passion and resurrection of Christe and I suppose that there are fewe godlye disposed Christians that doe not thynke it moste conuenient and profitable that such feastes especiallye shoulde bée in the Churche reteyned neyther is euerye contentious persons imagination and surmyse what maye happen to bée so greatlye regarded that it shoulde bée sufficient to condemne anye thyng that maye haue a profitable vse in the Churche by whome so euer it is inuented much lesse if it hath bene vsed of the Apostles them selues and euer sythence theyr tyme continued in the Churche as I haue shewed this feaste to haue bene Th weakenesse of man is greate therefore as hée is
from God so to doe As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God eyther vpon the Churche or comming towards it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they shoulde sanctifie a generall faste and proclayme ghnatsarah whiche signifieth 2. Ioel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works is the same Hebrue worde wherwith those feast days are noted in the law wherin they should rest the reason of which comaundement of the Lorde was that as they abstayned that day as much as myght be conueniently from meate so they myght abstayne from their dayly workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the worde of God and humbling them selues in the congregation confessyng their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from his fearce wrath In this case the Churche hauing commaundement to make a holyday maye and oughte to doe it as the Churche whiche was in Babilon dyd during the time of their captiuitie But where it is destitute of a commaundemente it may not presume by any decree to restrayne that libertie which the Lorde hath giuen Io. Whitgifte When you are conuinced by manyfest Scripture as you are in this matter then you flye to your newly deuised distinctions as you do in this place saying The Lord whiche gaue this generall lawe might make as many exceptions as he thought good but to no purpose for you can not shewe in the whole Scripture where God hath made any lawe or ordinance agaynst his owne commaundement And surely in this poynte you haue greatly ouershotte your selfe béeing content rather to graunt contrarietie to be in the Scripture than to yéelde to a manyfest and knowne truthe The Church in appoynting holydayes dothe followe the example of God him selfe and therefore Tract 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for hir doings and of the authoritie of the Church No mans libertie restreyned in such matters I haue spoken in an other place And I haue also a little before declared what kinde of libertie the Church may not restrayne and I adde that euery priuate mans consent is in the consent of y e Church as it is in the consent of the Parliament The Replyer bringeth authoritie against hym selfe therfore no mans libertie otherwise restrained than he hath cōsented vnto That in the seconde of the Prophet Ioell maketh agaynst you directly for it sheweth that vpon iuste occasion the Churche maye inhibite men from labour euen in the sire dayes notwithstanding it be sayde Sixe dayes thou shalte labour c. And to The Iewes aponynted to them selues holy dayes ▪ the intente no man shoulde doubte of the libertie of the Churche héerem or of the practise of this libertie let the nynthe chapter of Esther be perused and therein it will appeare that in remembrance of their great deliuerie from the treason of Haman the Iewes by the commaundement of Mordecai did solemnize and kéepe holydaye the fourtenth and fyftenth daye of the moneth Ader euery yeare But if neyther the ordinances of God himselfe nor the wordes of his Prophetes nor the examples of hys Apostles nor the practise of his Churche from the beginning wil take any place with you you are no man for me to deale with ¶ Of Sainctes dayes Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 120. Sect. vlt. Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holydays I come vnto the Apostles and other saincts dayes whiche are kepte wyth vs. And thoughe it were lawfull for the Churche to ordayne holydayes to our sauiour Christe or to the blessed Trinitie yet it is not therefore lawfull to institute holydayes to the Apostles and other Samctes or to their remembrance For althoughe I confesse as muche as you saye in the. 153. page that the Churche of Englande dothe not meane by this keeping of holydayes that the Saincts shoulde be honoured or as you alleage in 175. and 176. pages that with vs the Saincts are not prayed vnto or that it dothe propounde them as meritorious yet that is not inoughe For as we reason agaynst the Popishe purgatorie that it is therefore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any tyme for the dead (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogatiue so may it be reasoned agaynst these holydayes ordeyned for the remēbrance of the Saincts that for so much as the olde people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holyday for y e remēbrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other howe holy or excellent soeuer they were nor the Apostles nor the Churches in their time neuer ▪ instituted any eyther to keepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the Uirgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them now and this attempte by the Churches whiche followed whiche haue not suche certayne and vndoubted interpreters of the will of God as the Prophetes and Apostles were whiche liued in those Churches is not without some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those things whiche the Primitiue Churche in the Apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God than they that followed them had durst not venter vpon Io. Whitgifte Purgatorie is made a matter of saluation or damnation as all other doctrines of the Popes be and therfore a negatiue reason suche as you vse is sufficient inoughe to improue it But holydayes in our Churche haue no suche necessitie ascribed vnto them onely they are thought very profitable to the edifying of Gods people and therefore suche negatiue reasons preuayle not agaynst them no more than they doe agaynst other constitutions of the Church perteyning to edifying order or comelynesse wherof there is no mention made in the worde of God And therefore nothing that is héere spoken by you can take any holde Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Neyther are they called by the name of any Sainct in any other Why y e name of Sainctes are giuen to our holidays respecte than that the Scriptures whiche that daye are read in the Churche be concerning that Sainct and conteyne eyther hys calling preaching persecution martyrdome or suche like T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1. Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hathe to cause men to thinke so of euery thing as it is named and therefore althoughe you saye in the. 175. page that in calling these holydayes the dayes of suche or suche a Saincte there is nothyng else inent but that the Scriptures whiche are that daye read concerne that Saincte and conteyne eyther his calling preaching persecution Martyrdome c. yet euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche For besides that the corrupte custome of Popery hathe carryed their myndes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the daye teacheth otherwyse For seeing that by the dayes dedicated
in such matters whereof you are a member What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented vnto I knowe not but certayne it is that these be his owne woordes And that when he writte them he was of the same opinion that we are at this tyme in this Church of England Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in lyke manner writing vpon the fourth to the Galatians Caluine doth not disallow this kinde of obseruing dayes his wordes be these VVhen as holynesse is attributed to dayes vvhen as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake vvhen dayes are made a peece of diuine vvorship then dayes are vvickedly obserued c. But vvhen vve haue a difference of dayes laying no burden of necessitie on mens consciences vve make no difference of dayes as though one vvere more holy than an other vve put no religion in them nor vvorshipping of God but onely vve obserue them for order and concorde sake so that the obseruing of dayes vvith vs is free and vvithout all superstition And agayne vpon the. 2. to the Colloss But some vvill say that vve as yet haue some kinde of obseruing dayes I ansvvere that vve obserue them not as though there vvere any religion in them or as though it vvere not then lavvfull to labour but vvee haue a respect of pollycie orders not of dayes And in his Institutions vpō the fourth commaundement Neyther do I so speake of the seuenth daye that I vvould binde the Church onely vnto it for I do not condemne those Churches vvhich haue other solemne dayes to meete in so that they be voyde of superstition vvhich shall be if they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine at the practise of him and the Churche where he lined was and i to admitte no one holy day besides the Lordes day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of his workes as I thinke that he approued those holy dayes which are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in his Institution that he will not condemne those Churches which vse them no more do we the Churche of Englande neyther in this nor in other thinges whiche are meete to be reformed For it is one thing to mistike an other thing to condemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the Churche and an other to condemne the Churche for it And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians and Collossians there is no mention of any holydayes eyther to Sainctes or to any other and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches but the churche of Geneua and answereth not to those which obiecte against the keping of Sainctes dayes or any holydayes as they are called besides the Lordes daye but against those whiche woulde not haue the lordes day kepte still as a day of reste from bodily labour as it may appeare both by his place vpon the Collossians and especially in that which is alleaged out of his Institutions and that he meaneth nothing lesse than such holydayes as you take vpon you to detende it may appeare first in the place of the Collossians where he sayeth that the dayes of reste whiche are vsed of them are vsed for pollicie sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollycie and a way to preserue the estate of thinges and to keepe them in a good continuance and successe that as well the beastes as the menne which labour sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicie nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there shoulde be so many dayes wherein menne should cease from worke beyng a thing which breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouertie besides other disorders and vices which alwayes go in companie with idlenesse And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himselfe yet more playnely when he sayeth that those odde holydayes then are without superstition when they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order whereby he giueth to vnderstande that he would haue them no further holydayes than for the tyme which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the reste they should be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holydayes ascribed vnto Sainctes by the seruice booke is a iuste cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice booke Io. Whitgifte What soeuer M Caluines practise was in the Churche of Geneua yet in these places dothe his iudgement euidently appeare neyther doth a man alwayes vse that himselfe which he alloweth in an other for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place that is not so in an other He that condemneth the thing as vnlawfull muste also condemne the Churches that vse the same though not wholly yet in that poynt For as muche therefore as M. Caluine did not condemne other Churches for obseruing suche dayes it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the obseruing of those dayes in those Churches In déede it is one thing to mislike an other thing to condemne but he that maketh suche a sturre in the Churche for these matters as you do and that so disorderly can not be sayde onely to mislyke but also to condemne The place of M. Caluine out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not mente onely of the Lordes daye but of other dayes also obserued in other reformed Churches and in that place he maketh a generall answere as it were for them all as it is soone perceyued by suche as will reade that place He also that shall per vse his woordes vpon the seconde chapter to the Collossians shall finde the lyke sense in them In that he sayeth they be vsed for order and pollicie wee do not dissent from him but thinke so in lyke manner howbeit wée vnderstande as he doth Ecclesiasticall order and pollicie for in the wordes that go before the place to the Galatians he sayeth that the obseruing of dayes dothe also perteyne ad Regimen Ecclesiae to the gouernment Caluin in 4. Gal. of the Churche What better order and pollicie can there be than to haue certayne dayes appoynted wherein the people may reste from bodily labour to labour spiritually to heare the worde of God c. whiche M. Caluine called order and pollicie and not the externall rest of the Sabboth daye which is a commaundement of God and no constitution of the Churche neyther hath the Churche any respect to worldly pollicie in appoynting of Holydayes but to Ecclesiasticall pollicie whiche consisteth in hearing the wordes ministring the Sacramentes publike Prayers and other such lyke godly actions The place in his Institutions conuince all your shifting coniectures of mere follie for therein he playnely declareth his allowing in other Churches of o Holydayes than the
meaning But you must vnderstande that he doth not always feede the Who teacheth best best nor take the greatest paines which preacheth most often but he that preacheth most learnedly most pithyly most orderly most discretely moste to edifying It may be that he which preacheth but once in the moneth taketh One learned sermon better than many vnlearned more paynes for his sermon hath more pithe and learnyng in hys sermon edifieth more by his sermon than you doe for all your sermons in all your sermons or by al the sermons that you make in the whole yeare be they neuer so many For what is it to preache euery Friuolous and contentious sermons ▪ day and to spend the time with words only or with bytter inuectiues against certain trifles and against superiours Such sermons do not edifie but destroy do not worke in the heartes of the hearers faith charitie but either cōtempt of religion or else contempt of superiors cōtempt of good orders yea hatred malice vndiscrete wrath coloured with a pretēce of zeale Truly such sermōs seldome or neuer worke any good effect many womē in London could on that sort occupie the tyme. Wherfore I am fully persuaded that he cōmeth nerer to the fulfilling of the mynd of the Apostle which diligētly studying labouring continually for knowledge doth orderly learnedly and effectually preach once in the moneth thā such as backbiting at other mens tables running all the day long vp and downe the stretes seldome or neuer studying do negligently vnorderly verbally if I may so terme it preach euery day twice And yet I know the oftner a man doth preach the former circumstances being considered the better it is But of euery one it will be required according to his talent not he that speaketh most but laboureth most to speak not he that preacheth most often but that preacheth moste painfully truly and diligently shall in that day be beste accepted That learned and auncient father M. Whithead hath sundry times lamented in my hearing and I thinke there be other of his frendes hathe hearde the same the loose friuolous and vnprofitable preaching of diuers ministers in London And I would to God it were better looked vnto then I thinke verily we shoulde haue lesse contention and more religion T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 1. Here M. Doctor would faine as it seemeth if he durste interprete diligent preaching preaching in season and out of season to be preaching once a moneth But bicause he dare not say so directly he compasseth it about and first putteth the case of one preaching twice a day verbally and wyth small substance of matter and of an other preachyng but once in a moneth and doth it pythyly and orderly and discretely and concludeth that suche a Sermon once in a monethe is nearer the mynde of the Apostle than all those other Sermons made twice euery daye and yet the case is not so cleare as he maketh it For grauntyng that those which he calleth verball sermons haue some goodnesse and edifying it must be very simple slender meate which is not better beyng giuen euery day than the best and dayntiest meate once onely in a moneth For with the one a man may liue although he be not lyking with the other he being once fed is afterward fai shed But how if the case be put that the monethly and long laboured sermons as they are called haue as little and lesse good wholsome doctrine in them than the sermons whiche are preached euery daye Assuredly for the moste of those that goe so long with a Sermon and whyche I knowe and haue hearde when they come to bryng it foorthe bryng foorth oftentymes more wy e and vnprofytable matter than any good and tymely frute or holesome substantiall doctrine And no maruell for therein the worde of God is fulfilled whiche declareth that the talentes of Gods gifts and grace are encreased by co tinuall vse and laying out of them and of the other side diminished and in the ende taken quite away when as they are suffered to lie so long rusting as it were digged in the ground Io. Whitgifte M. Doctors wordes hée playne youre dealyng wyth them can not obscure them That whyche I haue spoken of verball Sermons is notoriously knowne There is not the like reason of externall and spirituall foode to bée true What I haue sayde of monethly Sermons I referre to other mens iudgemente The similitude betwixte the externall meate that féedeth the bodie and the woorde of God that féedeth the soule dothe fayle in manye thyngs and especially in these that the meate of the bodie remayneth not in the stomacke but passeth thorough the worde of God continueth and indureth in the mynde for euer The meate of the bodie the better it is digested the lesser whyle it dothe continue The worde of God the better it is vnderstoode and remembred the longer it remaineth The meat of the bodie once taken serueth but for y e present time bée it neuer so good and holesome The worde of God once preached and faythfully receyued dothe nourishe and féede continually therefore one learned effectuall orderly Sermon preached once in a Moneth conteyneth more nouryshemente in it feedeth longer woorketh more in the heartes of the hearers edifyeth more than all the vnorderlye and verball Sermons I myght also adde contentious that some preache in one whole yeare But you compare the worde of God and the nutriment of the body togyther in most grosest manner and in that wherein they are nothing like What you thinke of those monethly and long laboured sermons as you call them it skilleth not much for you are in a heate which hindreth true iudgemente But I woulde haue you and all other to vnderstande that this whiche I speake of monethly sermons I speake it in compar son and not that I woulde haue a man that is otherwise able to preach but once in a moneth I haue shewed the contrary in my Answer Euery man shall render an accompt of his laboure according to his talent Wherefore you and your company which are so greatly delighted in spreading false rumors of other men and séeke to win credite vnto your selues by diffaming of them shall answer one day to God and to me for the great iniurie you haue done me in that behalfe If it were lawfull for me to boast of my selfe I might iustly saye and proue it that I haue preached as many sermons as the most of you God forgiue me for my boasting but you compell me Well I confesse that I haue done no more than I ought to haue done And I beséech God to graunt me no longer life or ioy in this worlde than I desire to be vigilante and profitable in his Churche I woulde not be dumbe and without a function as you are and vppon that occasion for all the goodes in Englande For surely if those that preache not being able and once called therevnto shall haue an hard
iudgement what shall become of suche as not onely not preache themselues but deface other men that preache by backbiting and slaundering and spreading abrode false rumours vpon them to discredite both their persons and doctrine and with sectes schismes rent in péeces the Church of Christ and violently plucke downe whatsoeuer other men haue builded O. T. C. these things would be considered in time The seconde Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor taketh occasion to vtter his stomacke agaynste London ▪ flynging of one syde agaynste the women of the other syde agaynste the Ministers whose diligence bycause it maketh M. Doctors negligence more to appeare as a darke and dus she colour matched with that whiche is cleare and lightsome he doth goe aboute to deface with the vntrue and slaunderous surmyse of loose negligente and vnprofitable preachyng If there be some one such or two in London t is too greate iniurie therefore to charge indefinitely the companye of the ministers of London Besydes that M. Doctor dothe not see howe fyrste he accuseth the ▪ Bishop or euer he beaware bothe in ordeyning suche ministers and not in reforming them beyng so farre out of order and then the Archbishop whiche doth not require this disorder at the Bishops hande 〈◊〉 as he sayeth this is so godlie and heauenly an order to haue one Bishop ouer many ministers and one Archebishop ouer dyuers ▪ Bishops and if we shall esteeme the pythinesse and fastnesse of preachyng ▪ by the frutes as by the knowledge and sear ▪ of God in the people of London and by faythfull and true hearts toward the Prince and the Realme I thynk that that which he termeth 〈◊〉 loose and vnprofitable preachyng wit fal out to be waightyer and to leaue a deeper printe behynde them than those monethly sermons whyche he speaketh of And tte Ministers of London better ministers whiche preache twice a day than those whiche make the words of God nouell and daynties and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd Strawberies commyng only at certayne tymes of the yeare Io. Whitgifte I speake fyrste of the Authours of the Admonition Then I reporte M. Whithead his saying of dyuers preachers in London whiche if you coulde haue improued I thynke you woulde I knowe there be manye graue learned wyse and go re Preachers in London whyche haue greately profited that place and as instrumentes haue wroughte those good effectes you speake of in the heartes of many But I knowe also there be some others farre vnlyke vnto them in all respects who by their vndiscreate and loose dealyng haue as muche as yeth in them wroughte the contrarie If they haue bene suffered eyther throughe the negligence of Archebishop or Bishop I excuse neyther of them I thinke they haue good cause to take better héed hereafter Touching the women of London I haue not sayde any thyng to their disprayse I knowe a number verie honeste and godlie and I knowe none that is euyll Onely I require that modestie in some of them that beséemeth sober matrones and women pro essyng the Gospell It is not séemely for a woman to speake in the Churche no not that whiche is good muche lesse comely is it for hir to sc lde openly in the streates or to be a common deprauer of others at tables and other meetings There is no cause why I shoulde beare a stomacke 〈◊〉 London whiche place I haue alwayes honoured where I haue many friendes to the whych I haue shewed as many tokens of good will as any one man of my abilitie But if I admonishe some of the Citezens and bidde them take héede that they abuse not the Gospell to serue theyr affections that they make it not a cloke for theyr contentions that they waxe not wearie of it and desire straunge Doctrines that they heape not vp suche Preachers vnto themselues as maye serue theyr humours that they shewe themselues more thankfull for the Gospell the whyche they haue so long receyued that they studye for peace and quietnesse that they grieue not the Prince in séekyng alterations by whome they enioy the pure worde of God true vse of his Sacramentes and syncers woorshyppyng of hym To be shorte if I moue them to brotherly loue true obedience to theyr Superiours and hatred of sectes and schismes whervnto diuers of them be too much drawne by such as you are Do I vtter my stomacke agaynst them If eyther they or you take it so ▪ then I answere that I must obey God rather than man and preferre my Prince before all my friendes But this is a péece of your Rhetorike to drawe into hatred which I doubt not the godlie will easyly espie and iudge of your spirite accordingly The thirde Diuision Admonition Nay some in the fulnesse of their blasphemie haue sayde it that muche preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempt and that foure preachers were inough for all London so farre are they from thinking it necessarie seeking that euery congregation should haue a faithfull pastor Answere to the Admonition Pag. 167. Sect. 2. 3. If any haue mislyked often preachyng or hane sayde that muche Uerball preachers preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempte or that foure preachers were inough for all London they are to be blamed and that iustely and not the booke for it willeth no man to say so But if any hath sayd that some of those which vse to preach often by their loose negligente verball and vnlearned Sermons haue brought the worde of God into contempte or that foure godlie learned pithy diligent and discreete preachers might do more good in London than fortie contentious vnlearned verball and rashe Preachers they haue sayde truely and their saying myghte well be iustifyed Howbeit take heede that you slaunder no man or vniustly seeke the discredite of any whylest you seeke to vtter youre malice against that godlie booke None that fauoureth Gods word as I thinke denyeth that hearing the worde of God is the vsuall and ordinarie meanes whereby God vseth to woorke faythe in vs And that therfore Preachers be necessarie T. C. Page 124. Lin. 10. Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh agayne in the. 167. page but to this effect altogether and almoste in the same wordes Io. Whitgifte And yet is there somthing there that would haue bin answered but I take that as graunted whiche is not answered The fourth Diuision Admonition The seuententh and eightenth Then nothing taught but Gods word now princes pleasures mēs deuises Popish ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended Then they sought (p) Phil. 2. 20. 21. them now they seeke theyrs Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 84. Sect. 3. 4. 5. It had bin wel to let vs vnderstand what those Princes pleasures The Churche of Englande slaundered by the Admonitors be what mens deuises what Popish ceremonies what Antichristiā rites for nowe you haue but slandered both the Prince the whole state of religion in this
Churche by publike authoritie established wherfore vntil you shew some particulars this shal be my answere that Spiritus Dei neque est mendax neque mordax The spirite of God is neyther a lyer nor a slaunderer It is but your pleasure thus generally to say That then pastors soughte their flocks now they seeke theirs for it is well knowne that there bee Pastours which seeke their flockes and not theirs Hitherto thanks be vnto God in al this discourse ther is not one peece of false doctrine of any substance ascribed to this Churche of England by these libellers therfore it hath as God will the fyrst note of the true church of Christ that is puritie of doctrine T. C. Pag. 124. Lin. 12. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page I minde to say nothing hauing before spoken of the faults of the ceremonies and rites which are vsed with vs. Io. Whitgifte The Admonition saith that then nothing was taught but Gods word now Princes pleasures mens deuises popishe ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended and will neyther you nor they tell vs what those Princes pleasures c. be well it is true y t followeth in that part of my Answer for there is nothing said to the cōtrary Admonition These and a greate many other abuses are in the ministerie remayning which vnlesse they be remoued and the truth broughte in not onely Gods iustice shall be poured foorthe but also Gods Church in this realme shal neuer be builded For if they which seeme to be workinē are no workmen indeede but in name or elfe worke not so diligently and in such order as the workmaster commaundeth it is not only vnlikely that the building shall go forward but altogither impossible that euer it shall be perfited The way therefore to auoid these inconueniences and to reforme these deformities is this Your wisedomes haue to remoue Aduousons Patronages Impropriatiōs and Byshops authoritie clayming to themselues thereby right to ordeyne ministers and to bring in that old and true election which was accustomed to be (q) Act. 1. 26. 6. 2. 3. 14. 13. made by the cōgregation You must displace those ignorant and vnable ministers already placed and in their roomes appoynte suche as both can and wil by Gods assistance (r) 1 ▪ Pet. 5. feede the flocke You must plucke downe and vtterly ouerthrow without hope of restitution the Court of Faculties from whence not only licences to enioy many benefices are obteyned as pluralities Trialities Totquots c. but all thinges for the most part as in the Court of Rome are set on sale licences to marrie to eate flesh in times prohibited 1. Pet. 5. 2. to lie from benefices and charges and a great number beside of such like abhominations Appoint to euery congregation a learned and diligēt preacher ▪ Remoue Homilies Articles iniunctions a prescript order of Seruice made out of the Masse booke Take away the lordship the l ytering the pompe the idlenesse liuings of byshops but yet employ them to such endes as they were in the old Church appoynted for Let a lawfull and a godly scigniorie looke that they preache not quarterly or monethly but continuallie not for filthy lucre sake but of a ready mind So God shall be glorifyed your consciences discharged and the flocke of Christe purchased (s) Acts. 20. 28 with his owne bloud edifyed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 86. 87. Sect. 1. 2. What these great abuses by you hitherto alleadged be I trust you Discipline necessary do now fully vnderstand surely except such factious libellers suche stirrers vp of schismes such disturbers of the peace of the church such contemners of those that be in authoritie be not onely remoued but repressed God will not only of his iustice punish the magistrates of this Realme for their carelesnesse in this behalfe but also Gods gospell will therein be as much defaced with factions schismes and heresies as euer it was in the Popes time with superstition and idolatrie For surely these men that would be compted such perfect builders Libellers be vnderminers ▪ not builders be but vnderminers and destroyers and instruments of some greedy guttes and lusty toysters who to maynteyne their pride and ioylitie seeke for the spoyle of the Churche and indeede the vtter ouerthrow both of learning and religion For take from Byshops their lands and their authoritie let euery Confusion parish elect their owne minister remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions appoynt no prescript order of seruice that is to say let there be no order prescribed to any man no law to direct him or controll him but let euery minister do what he list speake what he list alter what he list and so oft as him list to be short let euery minister be King and Pope in his owne parish and exempted from all controlemente of Byshop Magistrate and Prince and you shall haue as many kinds of Religion as there is Parishes as many sects as ministers and a Church miserably torne in peeces with mutabilitie and diuersitie of opinions Do you not see what they shoote at would they not be free from al Anabaptisme feared Ambition in the Admonitors magistracie do they not most ambitiously desire that themselues whiche they condemne in other that is Lordship and superioritie For who thinke you shoulde be chiefe in euery parish and direct the rest Surely euen the minister The Pope neuer required greater authoritie ouer al Christendom than they seke to haue ouer their parish The Pope and his Clergie did neuer more earnestly seeke and desire to be exempted from the iurisdiction of ciuil magistrates than these men do both from ellesiasticall and ciuill Princes nobles and magistrates were neuer brought into greater seruitude bondage than these men seeke to lay vpon them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 1. After a number of words without matter sayings without proofes accusations without any grounds or likelihoode of grounds as that they be instruments of greedy gutts nd lusty roysters to maynteyn them in theyr ioylitie whych notwithstanding speake ageynst Patron ges and would haue the liuings of the Church which are idlely and vnprofitably spent for the most p rt applyed to the right vses of the poore and of ministers and schollers and that they would be discharged from ciuill and ecclesiasticall subiection whiche humbly submitting themselues to the Queenes maiestie and all those that are sente of hir would deliuer the Churches and themselues for the Churches sake from the vnla ull dominion of one to the end that they might yeld themselues with their Chruches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which ▪ God hath appoynted in his word After I ▪ s y a number of such and like accusations mixt with most itter and reprochfull words vnto all which it is sufficient answer that ▪ Quod verbo dictu mest verbo sit negatum ▪ As easily denyed as sayd Io. Whitgifte
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
(*) Herein you haue aptly described your own nature It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietnesse whiche rather than he would not striue striueth with himselfe Io. Whitgifte Whither I accuse them iustly or no I shall referre it to the Reader to iudge after I haue set downe their very wordes which indéede no Christian cares can paciently heare pag. 157. they say thus Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to Which wordes if they be well marked and ioyned with the reason that followeth for players yet learne their partes without booke c. must néedes signifie a mer contempt of reading the scriptures and a mynde that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading than by playing vpō a stage which is an vntolerable blasphemy Pages 164. and. 165. their talke of reading the scriptures tendeth wholy to this purpose to make the same altogether vnprofitable and surely no man can excuse them of this crime but he that is bent without respect to assent vnto them in all thinges though they be moste manifestly false and moste absurde But I would haue the Reader marke this one thing that speaking of a reading minister you saye It I may so call hym whereby you giue playne signification that you may not call nor esteeme them to be ministers which cannot preache Whiche if it be true then haue they not in your doctrine delyuered any of the sacramentes The marke that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptized as haue bene baptizedby thē to the proofe wherof your doctrine tendeth wholly The like he hath after warde pag. 128. Sect. 1. Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good which he defendeth yet I wyll note in a worde or two howe as though there were pitche or some worse thing in his handes he defileth whatsoeuer he toucheth Io. Whitgifte A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeache a knowne truthe for the persones sake that doth defend it Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus Did Paule so or did Peter dally in that manner Paule was content to allowe the truthe preached euen by false Prophetes But what should I compare the mylde modest and louing spirite of the Apostles with the contentious and scoffing spirite of T. C Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learne why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zvvingfildians mislike reading of scriptures the scriptures I hope you be not Zvvingfildians is not the word of God as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or is Reading is preaching not reading preaching T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therfore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whither the worde of God is not as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or whether reading bee not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayth then the comparison of the profit and efficacie betweene one and the other is absurde yet I wyll answere to both I say therefore that the worde of God is not so effectuall read as preached For S. Paule sayth that faith commeth by hearing and hearing of the worde preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke faythe by is preaching Rom. 10. and not reading Io. Whitgifte I haue affirmed nothing so boldely which I haue not as strongly by good authorities and reasons cōfirmed to the which you haue not answered but in this manner of brawling If you did vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of preachings as M. Bucer declareth vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them which also the same Bucer there affirmeth then would you haue absteyned from giuing this sentence That if reading be preachyng than is the comparison of the profitte and efficacy betweene one and the other absurde for one kynde of preaching may be compared to an other without any absurditie I say that S. Paule in that chapter to the Romains by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospell by voyce generally vnderstand all kindes of publishing the Gospel by the external voyce which comprehendeth reading as well as it doth that which you call preaching and it is greatlye against the dignitie and maiestie of the scriptures it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papistes touching the obscuritie of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them to saye that fayth commeth not by reading for that is to make them dumbe and vnprofitable M. Bucer vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth foorth the cōmoditie of reading the scriptures The commoditie of reading the scriptures in the churche Bucer in this manner Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end that both the phrase and manner of speaking of the scripture and the scripture it self might be more knowen and more familiar to the people when as they which did interprete the scriptures could not finish one little part thereof in one whole yeare In the meane time by the onely reading of the scriptures the people were maruelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the pointes and doctrine of saluation For they be in euery booke oftentimes repeated and expounded with diuers wordes that the people of that which followed might vnderstande many things which in that that went before they could not sometime perceiue and by that meanes the iudgement of the people was confirmed in all pointes of religion so that they were able to iudge of the interpretation of the scriptures and of all doctrine whiche was taught them by their owne Curates and teachers or by any other And therfore in auncient Churches this bare reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed Of reading of scriptures God be thanked it is very well appointed in the Churche of Englande c. Thus farre M. Bucer Surely I maruell what is ment by this your straunge kinde of doctrine except you would haue the people through ignorance of the scriptures brought againe to this point that they must only depende vpon the mouth of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet this is gyuen to the preaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the heartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures and the consideration of the makyng of the worlde and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacie be compated to the preaching of the worde of God Io. Whitgifte Reading of the scriptures doth not only nouryshe fayth but ingendreth faith also Reading
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
the substance should be wanting But of this distinction I haue spoken in another place whereinto although M. Doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet this shall be an answer for all Io. Whitgifte It is as grossely replyed vnto but my beléefe is that the sacrament is as purely and sincerely ministred with the one as it is with the other For not euery fond superstitious or vayne opinion of euery priuate person in this or that ceremonie â—erogateth any thing from the pure and sincere administration of the sacraments except it can be shewed that the things vsed be wicked vnlawfull or superstitious of themselues Wherefore this is a grosse quarell of yours it is no ouersighte of mine for I am well assured of the right and sincere administration of the sacraments in this Church both touching substance ceremonies and other circumstances And it is too much iniurie that you do to this Church of England in comparing the ceremenies thereof which he pure to the corrupt and superstitious ceremonies of the Papists vsed in baptisme But how should you otherwise vtter your coÌ„tempt or great spite against it Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. These words that you vse like their God of the altar be slanderous and false we are as farre from thinking the bread to be our God as you and teach as sound doctrine touching this sacrament And therefore you shew of what spirit you be T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 2. The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the Altar is playne enough that it is vnderstanded of the Papists but that M. Doctor doth set himselfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he cannot be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thinges whiche are 〈◊〉 knowen he often vseth the or that or their without naming the things which he speaketh of Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition be these Then they ministred with common and vsual bread now with wafer cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their God of the Altar Now let the Reader iudge whether I charge them 〈◊〉 or no. Your excuse is but for a fashion their opinion of this whole Churche is as peeuishly and opprobriously vttered in sundry other places of their booke as it is in this And therefore there is no great doubt of their meaning or if their meaning be not so yet was it vnaduisedly set downe in that order that me may iustly suspect their meaning to be so Chp. 1. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The sixth They receiued it (c) Mat. 26. 20 Mar. 14. 18 Luk. 22. 14 Iohn 13. 28 sitting we kneeling according to Honorius decree Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The places of scripture that you quote in the margente to proue sitting at the communion declare that Christe and his disciples sate Kneeling and sitting at the Communion at the table but that proueth nothing For you mighte as well haue sayde they receiued after supper we before dinner they at nighte we in the morning they after meate we before meate they in a priuate house we in the open Churche they being all men and in number twelue we togyther with women not strictly obseruing the nuÌ„ber of twelue or any other nuÌ„ber aboue three or foure This your argument toucheth them as well as it doth vs whiche receiue it standing or walking But to sit stande kneele or walke be not of the substance of the Sacrament and therfore no impediments why it may not be sincerely ministred It be houeth humble and meeke spirites in such indifferent matters to submit themselues to the order of the Churche appoynted by lawfull authoritie and not to make schismes and contentions in the Church for the satisfying of their owne fantasies Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 1. the. II. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. vlt. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. Kneeling the meetest gesture Touching kneeling at the communion it forceth not who did first appoint it although I can finde no such decree made by Honorius it is the meetest manner of receiuing this sacrament in mine opinion being commonly vsed in praying and giuing of thanks both whiche are annexed to this sacrament and are to be required in the coÌ„municants and therfore I thinke this to be a good reason the meet est gesture for praying and thaÌ„ksgiuing is kneeling but those that receiue the Eucharist pray and giue thaÌ„ks Ergo the meetest gesture for them is kneeling The onely perill is adoration whiche may as well be committed sitting or standing But wherefore then serueth preaching there is as much daunger of contempt the one way as there is of adoration the other way In such matters Christian magistrates haue authoritie to appointe what they thinke most conuenient and the same must be obserued of those that be pacifici and not contentiosi But of sitting and kneeling at the communion more is to be spoken hereafter in the second part T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 3. Although it be not of necessitie that we should receiue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolishing kneeling that ther is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be daunger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is ther not daunger in the other and if ther be men that take occasion to fall at the one that by superstition how commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. pag. saith y e neither gospeller nor Papists obstinate nor simple can superstitiosly offend in this kneeling when as the kneeling carrieth a greater shew of worship imprinteth in the mindes of the ignoraÌ„t a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration than the sighte of a round cake And if kneeling be so voyd of all fault as M. Doctor would make vs beleeue howe came it to passe that in King Edwards days there was a protestation added in the booke of prayer to cleare that gesture from adoration Io. Whitgifte If this be a sufficieÌ„t argument to alter chaunge so decent comely an order and gesture in praysing God then what order can stand in the church seing there is nothing that may not be abused My words in the. 180. pag. be true and as yet vnanswered I will set them downe in their place that the Reader may perceyue howe little you are able to saye against them The protestation made in king Edwards dayes touching this gesture was to satissye if it might be such quarellers as you are and to take away all occasion of cauilling not for any great seare of adoration Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. vlt. Another reason why kneeling should be taken away is for that sitting agreeth better with the action of the supper wherevnto M. Doctor taketh exception both in this place and where he speaketh againe of it that forsomuch as this sacrameÌ„t is a sacrament of
Matth. 5. 6. 7. If thou bring thy gifte to the alter c. Agree with thine aduersarie quickly c. It is vsuall in all exhortations and it is a maner of speaking that giueth euery man occasion to apply that vnto him selfe whiche is spoken Neither doe I héerein pinc e at our sauiour Christes action as you surmise for he spake generally to them all and therefore vsed that forme of words which was most conuenient for that purpose Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision Admonition The eyghte They vsed no other words but suche as Christ left we borrowe from Papistes the body of our Lorde Iesus Christ which was giuen for the. c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 101. Sect. 2. 3. From whence soeuer these words were borrowed they were well Of the words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christ. c. borrowed for it is a godly prayer and an apte application of that sacrament and putteth the Communicants in minde of the effecte of Christes passion exhibited vnto them by that sacrament and sealed with the same if it be worthily receyued It maketh no matter from whome we receyue any thing so it be godly profitable and consonant to the scriptures But I pray you tell vs what Pope inuented these words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christe c Admonition The ninth They had no Gloria in excelsis in the ministerie of the sacrament then for it was put f Telesphorus in anno 130. to afterwarde We haue nowe Ansvvere Pag. 101. Sect. 5. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. It is the common consent of ecclesiasticall hystories that the Apostles Of Gloria in excelsis dyd celebrate the Lords supper with the Lords prayer and yet we doe not reade that Christe dyd so You also teache that the The Apostles celebrated the Lords supper with y e Lords prayer supper ought not to be ministred without a sermon and in the ministration thereof you vse diuers prayers and other orders whiche Christe vsed not Can you espie a mote if it be a mote as it is not in an other mans eye and can you not perceyue a beame to be in your owne There is nothing conteyned in Gloria in excelsis but the same is taken out of the scriptures and to be vsed of all true Christians Telesphorus whome you note in the margent to haue added to the Telesphorus a good Bishop supper of the Lorde Gloria in excelsis in the yere of the Lorde 130. was a good Bishop and the Church of Rome was as yet pure in doctrine and vnspotted with heresie Io. Whitgifte No answere to one whit of all this Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision Admonition The tenth They tooke it with conscience we with custome Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 3. 4. This is but your presumptuous and arrogant iudgement who dare take vpon you to giue this generall sentence so generally vpon this whole Churche of Englande for you make no exception but set vs ad oppositum to them If you say some take it without conscience I thinke you say truely and so did some of them as Iudas But if you say all or the moste part you go beyonde your commission and make your selues Iudges of other mens consciēces contrary to the rule of Christ. Mat. 7. Luke 6. and of Paule Rom. 2. and. 14. 1. Cor. 4. and of Iames. 4. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. When as many receyue they know not what some other without any examination eyther of thē selues or by others howe they come with what fayth in Christ with what loue towards their brethren I see not agaynst what rule of our fauiour Christ it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome than of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particular person Io. Whitgifte Generally to charge the whole Churche with that which is but the faulte of some and thus boldely to enter into many mens consciences must néedes be bothe lacke of great discretion and also agaynst those rules of Scripture that I haue quoted in my Answere to the Admonition ¶ Of shutting men from the Communion and compelling to communicate Chap. 2. the first Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They shut men by reason of their g 1. Co. 5. 11. sinnes from the Lords supper we thrust them in their sinne to the Lords supper Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 6. 7. The place that you alleage out of the fifte chapter of the fyrst to the Corinthians whiche is this But novve I haue vvritten vnto you that you companie not togither if any that is called a brother be a fornicatour c. dothe not particularly touche the secluding of men by reason of their sinnes from the Communion but generally prohibiteth true Christians to haue any familiaritie or frendship with any suche notorious offendour If you were not with malice blynded you mighte easily vnderstande that by the order and rules of this Church of Englande all notorious and knowne offendours euen suche as S. Paule heere The Admonito gratify the Papists speaketh of are secluded from the Lordes supper But peraduenture your meaning is that no man should be compelled to the Communion at any time wherein you greatly gratifie the Papistes and shewe your selfe a good patrone of theirs When you shewe any reason why men may not be compelled to come to the Communion then you shall be answered In the meane time you are worthy of your fee. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. vlt. If the place of the. 5. to the Corinth do forbid that we should haue any familiaritie with notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the Communion Io. Whitgifte I will Answere you as M. Caluine answered the Anabaptists obiecting the same Calu aduersus Anabapt place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. in effect to the same ende and purpose that the Authors of the Admonition doe vsing the like collection that you doe in this place But wheras sayth he Paule doth forbid to eate with those that lyue dissolutely that perteyneth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion but some will saye if it be not lawfull for a Christian man to keepe company with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may he receyue with them the Lords bread I answere that it is in our power whether we will be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore euery one ought to flye from them But it is not so in our power to receyue the Communion or not to receyue it therefore the reason is not all one we must therfore note that if the Churche do tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall do well that knowing him to be suche a one doth abstayne from his companie as muche as he can so that his dooing make no schisme or separation in the Churche This I speake onely touching the true vnderstanding of that place
that is to compell vsed agaynst suche as refuse to communicate I thinke in déede the especiall quarell is their owne bicause they haue separated them selues from the Churche and woulde not be constrayned to communicate with vs but they make their doctrine generall therby to cloke their intent Wherefore whether they do it to gratifie the Papists or no it may be doubted but certayne it is that the Papists could not haue had better Proctours Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saythe wee be worthy of for shewing our selues as he fayth so good patrons of the Pap stes he hathe giuen vs well to vnderstande what it shoulde be if he were the paymaster but as we serue the Lorde in this worke so we looke for rewarde at his hande not fearing but that the Lorde will in the ende giue suche blessing vnto our labours as we shall not neede greatly to eare at the handes of those whiche God hath placed in authoritie the rewarde which you do so often call for Io. Whitgifte Surely that ée you should looke for at my hands that it behoueth a Christiā man so giue vnto suche as continue in disturbing the Churche and yet peraduenture shoulde it not be by the twentie parte so sharpe as the fee that you woulde bestowe vpon me if it were in your power Howbeit I commit my selfe to him by whome hitherto I haue béene protected notwithstanding all the deuises and practises of slaunderous tongues and hatefull countenances and I nothing doubte but that in the ende God will turne all to his glory and profite of the Churche ¶ Of playne and simple ministring and receyuing of the Communion Chap. 3. Admonition The twelfth They ministred the Sacraments playnely we pompeously with singing pyping surplesse and cope wearing The thirtenth They simply as they h Co. 11 23 receyued it from the Lorde We sinfully mixed with mans inuentions and deuises Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. This is a very slender reason to proue that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministred bicause there is singing pyping surplesse and Cope when you shewe your reasons agaynst that pompe whiche is nowe vsed in the celebration of that Sacrament you shall heare what I haue to saye in defense of the same I thinke that there is nothing vsed in the administration thereof that dothe in any respecte contaminate it or make it impure As for pyping it is not prescribed to be vsed at the Communion by any rule that I knowe Synging I am sure you doe not disallowe beeing vsed Singing vsed in al reformed Churches in all reformed Churches and an arte allowed in Scriptures and vsed in praysing of God by Dauid Of Surplesse and Cope I haue spoken before wyl speake more hereafter as occasionis ministred There is no suche inuentions or deuises of man mixed wyth the Supper of the Lorde as can make it sinfull beeing all perteyning to edifying and to good decent order and nothing there appoynted to be done contrarie or not agreable to the Scriptures Caluine Caluine him selfe sayth in his Institutions Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those thynges vvhiche be partes of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle though Decent orders be Gods traditions they be prescribed by man yet are they Gods traditions and not mans as kneeling at solemne prayer and suche like The Supper it selfe in all poynts of any moment is ministred nowe in this Churche of Englande euen as Christ deliuered it as the Apostles vsed and as the Primitiue Churche continued the same These be all the reasons you vse to proue that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministred wherof some be impious some ridiculous and all of them vnworthy any confutation T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that whyche is conteyned in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answered before partly particularly partly when I noted the general faults of the Seruice booke especially seeing that M. Doctor wyll not defende the pyping and Organes nor no other synging than is vsed in the re rmed Churches which is in the synging of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a playne tune easy both to be song of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych bicause they can not reade can not sing with the rest of the Churche For that whiche is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplesse I haue answered before Io. Whitgifte To the moste of it you haue not answered any where and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministred haue left vntouched that is whether these things be of that weight or no that in any respect they can contaminate the sacramentes or make them impure as they b nowe vsed Neyther haue you proued or can proue that the sacraments are not ministred in this Church of Englande in all poyntes of any moment euen as Christ deliuered them the Apostles vsed them the primitiue Oecolamp in Epist. apud Gastium li. 2. de erro Catabaptist Churche continued them Touching singing piping as you cal it surplesse cope wearing I answere with Oecolampadius These things be free vnto Christians whiche holy or godly Bishops may eyther adde if it seeme vnto them conuenient and profitable for the people or take away if there be any abuse as the time requireth euen as they may also doe in other ceremonies VVe haue made no contention for externall things those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the worde of God I haue hearde no reasons as yet to improue the manner of singing vsed in this The originall cause of the pryde of the Romishe churche Churche of England neyther do I say that I allow no other singing than is vsed in other reformed Churches For I woulde not haue any Churche to arrogate that perfection vnto it selfe that it should thinke all other Churches to be bounde vnto it it was the originall cause of the pryde of the Churche of Rome I haue onely sayde that other reformed Churches allow singing which is true ¶ Of matters touching Baptisme Tract 16. Of Interrogatories ministred to infants Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition And as for baptisme it was inough with them if they i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the Minister to preach the worde and minister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories ministred to the Intant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus holy fontes inuented by Pope Pius crossing and such like peeces of Poperie which the Church of God in the Apostles tyme neuer knew and therefore not to be vsed nay which we are sure of were and are mans deuises brought in long after the
puritie of the primitiue Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. c. Interrogatories to be ministred to the infant be not straunge Interrogatories ministred to infantes Dionysius Areopag neyther lately inuented but of great antiquitie For Dionysius Areopagita in his booke entituled De caelest Hierar and seuenth chapter speaking of the baptising of infantes and of their sureties or godfathers and answering to certayne prophane deriders as he termeth them which sayde that one was baptised for an other bycause the Godfather did promise and answere for the childe speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather Neque enim hoc ille ai Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor sed ita puer renunciat profitetur id est spondeo puerum inducturum cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit sedulis adhortationibus meis vt abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino profiteaturque peragat diuina quae pollicetur Neyther doth he say this I renounce for the childe or professe the Sacraments of faith but in this sort the childe doth renounce or professe that is to say I promise so to instruct the childe vvhen he commeth to the yeares of discretion vvith dayly exhortacions that he shall renounce all contrary thinges and professe and performe those heauenly thinges vvhich he doth promise T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. There followeth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infantes in baptisme for the proofe whereof is brought in the first place Dionysius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let passe that M. Doctor alleageth the celestiall Hierarchie in steade that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie this testimonie beyng found in the one and in the other dare M Doctor be so bolde as to delude the worlde in so great light with such babies as this doth he thinke that the Authour of these bookes of Hierarchies beyng so full of subtile speculations vayne and idle fantasies wicked blasphemies making one order of Popes an other of Prelates the third of Sacrifie s and then of Monkes some of which orders came not many hundred yeares after that time wherein Denise the Areopagite liued which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions that no other Authour neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor other diuers hundreth yeares after doth make mention of besides him I say doth he thinke to abuse menne and to giue them such drosse in steade of Siluer such chaffe in steade of corne as to make vs beleeue that he that wrote these bookes of Hierarchie was S. Paules scholler for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will sendè the reader vnto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither with his owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Ualla I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credite in such matters in those matters especially which might like or mislyke those times wherein he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating with Denis and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concernyng the heauenly and ecclesiasticall hierarchie But bycause I thinke M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Deuis I will follow it no further By this it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionysius beyng a counterfet and start vp these Interrogatories and demaundes ministred vnto infantes haue not so many graye heares as he would make vs beleeue although in deede the question lieth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very euill he maketh it all one to say I renounce and to say I will teach another to renounce Io. Whitgifte I knowe there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authoritie and Authour of these bookes And yet it cannot be denied but that they be very auncient neyther is it any shame for me to alleage his authoritie seing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to alleage the same booke against Harding to proue reading of Defense of the Apolog. Parte 5. the Scriptures in the Church with as great credite as I do Howbeit I wil not take vpon me the defense of them neyther do I doubte but that something may be thrust in vnto them but of all other thinges this is the least to be suspected that I haue in this place alleaged Neyther am I any more ashamed of him than you are of so often alleaging the Canons of the Apostles Hyginus c. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the bookes of Dionysius His reason is to be considered agreing fully with the true meaning of this Churche of Englande but you wipe it away with a floute as your manner is when you are driuen to a pinche Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 106. Sect. 1. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium answering Augustine this Question why seing we dare promise nothing of the infantes behauiour and manners when he commeth to mans state yet when An obiection made by Augustine The Answere to the same he is brought to baptisme and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptised whither the infant beleeue or no they answere that he doth beleeue sayth on this sorte Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem c. Except Sacramentes had a certayne similitude and likenesse of those thinges vvhereof they be Sacramentes they vvere no Sacramentes at all and by reason of this same similitude oftentymes they are called by the names of the thinges themselues therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking the Sacrament of the body of Christe is the body of Christe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the Sacrament of the fayth is fayth neyther is it anything els to beleeue than to haue fayth and therefore vvhen ansvvere is made that the infant dothe beleeue not hauing as yet fayth in deede it is ansvvered that he doth beleeue for the Sacrament of fayth and that he doth conuert himselfe vnto God for the Sacrament of conuersion bycause the ansvvere it selfe doth perteyne to the celebration of the Sacrament And a litle after he sayeth Itaque paruulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Nam sicut credere respondetur ita etiam fidelis vocatur non rem ipsa mente annuendo sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo Therfore although that faith vvhich consisteth in the vvill of the beleeuers dothe not make the ehylde faythfull yet dothe the Sacrament of that fayth make him faithfull for euen as it is ansvvered that he dothe beleeue so is he also called faithfull not by signifying the thing it selfe in his minde but by receyuing the Sacrament of the thing By these two authorities it is manifest that
with what name those notes are called which are cyted of M. Doctor for the defense of these corruptions they are called by M. Doctors owne confession Censures which worde signifieth and implyeth as much as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take this for a generall rule throughout the whole booke of Seruice that in whatsoeuer things in controuersie M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authoritie to confirme them that those things Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate Baptisme and Communions ministerd in houses for interrogatories ministred to Infants and such lyke for so muche as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgement it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not either condemned or misliked of diuerse things in the Seruice booke we shoulde haue had the notes printed and set forth to the full This I thought in a worde to admonish the reader of Io. Whitgifte To your first cauill I haue answered before where you made the same To your seconde of master Bucers Censures though the booke be not so intituled the M. Bucers Censures vppon the first booke in king Edwardes time answere is short and plaine it was his iudgement vppon the first Communion booke in the time of king Edwarde wherein he misliked some things but alloweth both priuate Baptisme and the Communion ministred to the sicke as I before declared and you might haue remembred if your memorie had not fayled you Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 4. Unto M. Bucers authoritie I could here oppose men of as great authoritie yea the authoritie of all the reformed Churches which shal also be done afterwarde And if there were nothing to oppose but the worde of God which will haue the Sacraments ministred simplie and in that sinceritie that they be left vnto vs it is enough to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that which thy shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicitie The reasons which M. Bucer bringeth I will answere wh ch in this matter of crossing are two first that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of this vsage Li. de resurrect carnis And if this be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we shoulde mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptions which were likewise vsed in those tymes For the same Li. de corona militis Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of milke and honie and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes without proofe Crossing in that maner and forme that we vse it verie well agréeth with the simplicitie of the worde of God If it doe not so shewe any worde agaynst it Your answere to that reason is very base for it is not onely auncient but it hath continued and béene generally receyued which you allowed before as a sufficient reason for Godfathers As for milke and honie the vse of them was neyther continued long nor yet generall and therefore the reason of them and of the other is not lyke Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135 Sect. vlt. But here I will note the cause wherevppon I suppose this vse of crossing came vp in the Primitiue Churche whereby shall appeare howe there is no cause nowe why it it should be reteyned if there were any why it shoulde be vsed in the Primitiue Churche It is knowne to all that haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories that the Heathen did obiect to the Christians in tymes past in reproche that the God which they beleeued of was hanged vpon a Crosse. And they thought good to testifie that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God by the often vsing of the signe of the Crosse which carefulnesse and good mynde to keepe amongest them an open profession of Christ crucifyed although it be to be commended yet is not this meanes so for they might otherwise haue kept it and with lesse daunger than by this vse of crossing and if they thought the vse of the Crosse to be the best meanes yet they shoulde not haue beene so bolde as to haue brought it into the holy Sacrament of Baptisme and so mingle the ceremonies and inuentions of men with the Sacramentes and institution of God And as it was brought in vpon no good grounde so the Lord left a marke of his curse of it and whereby it might be perceyued to come out of the forge of mans brayne in that it beganne forthwith while it was yet in the swadling cloutes to be superstitiously abused For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same booke de Corona militis that the Christians had such a superstition in it that they woulde doe nothing nor take nothing in hande vnlesse they had crossed them when they went out when they came in when they sat or lay downe and when they rose and as Superstition is alwayes strengthned and spreddeth it selfe with the time so it came from crossing of men vnto crossing of euerie thing that they vsed Wherevpon Chrysostome commendeth the crossing of the Cuppe before a man drinke Vpon the 1. Tim. 4. cap. and of the meate before it was eaten But if it were graunted that vppon this consideration which I haue before mencioned the auncient Christians did well yet it followeth not that wee shoulde so doe for we liue not amongest those Nations whiche doe cast vs in the teeth or reproche vs with the Crosse of Christ. If we liued amongst the Turkes it were an other matter and then there might peraduenture some question be whether we shoulde doe as they did and hauing the same sore vse the same playster But nowe we liue among the Papistes that doe not contemne the crosse of Christ but which esteeme more of the woodden crosse than of the true crosse of Christ which is his sufferings we ought nowe to doe cleane contrariewise to the olde Chrystians and abolishe all vse of these crosses for contrarie diseases must haue contrarie remedyes if therefore the olde Christians to delyuer the crosse of Christ from contempt did often vse the crosse the Christians nowe to take away the superstitious estimation of it ought to take away the vse of it Io. Whitgifte I thinke your supposition in parte to bée true I am also perswaded that the originall cause of vsing this signe was lawfull and good and yet the thing if selfe afterwardes abused and the cause of vsing is cleane altered and wholy conuerted to superstition but the abuse béeing taken away I sée no cause why it may not be vsed in Baptisme in that manner and forme as it is in this Churche of Englande that is In token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the fayth of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner agaynst sinne the worlde
of your profession shoulde be ignorant in the nature and definition of a Sacrament A Sacrament I meane not in the largest signification but as it is properly vsed and as we call the Lordes Supper and Baptisme Sacramentes For Sacramentes in the proper signification be mysticall signes ordeyned by God himselfe consisting in the worde of The proper signification of sacraments God in figures and in things signified whereby he keepeth in mannes memorie and sometymes renueth his large benefites bestowed vpon his Church whereby also he sealeth or assureth his promises and sheweth outwardly and as it were layeth before oure eyes those things to beholde which inwardly he worketh in vs yea by them he strengthneth and increaseth our fayth by the holy Ghost working in our heartes And to be short by his Sacramentes he separateth vs from all other people from all other religions consecrating vs and binding vs to him onely and signifyeth what he requyreth of vs to be done Nowe euerie ceremonie signifying any thing hath not these conditions and propertyes Euery signifying ceremonie is not a acrament Wherefore euerie ceremonie signifying any thing is not a Sacrament and therefore crossing in Baptisme though it signifyeth some thing yet it is no Sacrament The allegory of sitting is dombe and speaketh nothing but to the signe of the crosse is added the signification in expresse woordes as I haue before declared wherefore there is more cause to condemne the one than there is to cōdemne the other More uer sitting at the Lordes supper hath not bene vsed in the Churche that I can reade of but crossing in baptising hath wherefore that were to inuent a newe Ceremonie and this is to reteyne the olde so that the reason of their allegorie and of this Ceremonie is not lyke Of refusing yle in baptisme the Churche hath iust cause and it vseth hir libertie in reteyning crossing neyther will it burden the Sacramentes with a multitude of vnnecessary and vnprofitable Ceremonies and yet reteyne such as shall be thought moste conuenient Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Lin. 3. And to conclude I see no cause why some crosses should be vnlawefull and other some commendable and why it should be a monument of Popery in woode and metall and yet a Christian badge in the forehead of a man why we should not lyke of it in streates and hyghewayes and yet allowe of it in the churche Io. Whitgifte As there is great difference betwixt the paynting of an Image to sette foorth an historie and placing of it in the Churche to be worshipped so is there also as great difference or more betwixt crossing a childe in the forehead at the time of baptisme with expressing the cause and vse of it and the placing of crosses in Churches or highways and streates The crossing of the childes forehead is but for a moment the crosse of wood and stone remayneth and continueth the crosse in the childes forehead is not made to be adored and worshipped neyther was euer any man so madde as to imagine any such thing of it but the crosses in churches streates and highwayes of mettall and woode were erected to be worshipped and were so accordingly and therefore there is no like perill in the one as there is in the other ¶ Of the parties that are to be Baptised Chap. 4. The first Diuision Admonition ▪ That the parties to be baptised if they be of the yeares of (p) Math. 6. discretion by them selues and in their owne persones or if they be infantes by theyr parentes in whose rooine if vpon necessary occasion they be absent some one of the congregation knowyng the good behauiour and sounde faythe of the par tes may both make rehersall if theyr faythe and also if their fayth be sounde agreable to holy scriptures desyre to be in the same baptised And finally that nothyng be done in this or any other thing but that which you haue the expresse warrant of Gods worde for Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 111. Sect. 1. 2. I muse what you meane to saye on this sorte The parties to be baptised Of those that are to be baptised if they be of the yeares of discretion c. You knowe that in this Church of England none tarry for baptisme so long except it be in some secrete congregation of Anabaptistes The place alledged out of the third of Matthew telleth how they that were baptised cōfessed their sinnes it speaketh nothing of any confession of faith It is well that you admitte some to answere for the infant in the Of the parēts answering or their children absence of the parent and why not in his presence to what scripture haue you that the Parent at the baptising of his childe should make a rehersall of his fayth and desire that his childe should bee therein baptised this I desire to knowe for myne owne learning for I neither remember any such thing in scripture neither yet in any auncient wryter I do herein but desire to be instructed T. C. Pag. 139. Lin. 6. And bicause I would haue all those thyngs togither that touche this matter of baptisine I come to that which he hath in the next Section and in III. page where after his olde manner he wrangleth and quarrelleth For although the Admonition speaketh so playnely and so clearely that as Hesiod sayth it myght 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 satisfie Momus yet M. Doctor goeth about there to bryng it in suspicion of Anabaptisme bicause allowing in playne wordes the baptisme of infantes they adde that if the parties be of discretion and yeares them selues in their own persons should demaunde to be baptised For sayth he in this Church they tary not for baptisme so long But is ther no cause or may there not be when they that be of age may be baptised It may be there are Iewes in Englande which vnderstanding their blyndnes and confessing their synne may desyre to be baptised and here be dyuers Mores in noble mens gentlemens houses which are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christe whereby th re is some vse and practise of this case Io. Whitgifte Anabaptisme being so crafty an heresy that it dissembleth many things vntill it Anabaptisme a crafty heresy haue sufficient ayde a man can not be to suspicious of it especially in those that walke in steppes so lyke vnto it And yet I speake nothing in that place that may bryng the A thours of the Admonition into suspicion of Anabaptisme vnlesse they suspect them selues or that you would haue them suspected for you knowe the olde prouerbe Conscius ipse sibi c. It may be in deede that there be Iewes in Englande Mores Turkes 〈◊〉 and that some of them being conuerted to the fayth be afterward baptised and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is so but the case is very rare and there is no man that doubteth but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be examined in their fayth before they be admitted to
I know But let vs a little better cōsider your assertions and marke your drifte Page 34. you saye that there are no whoremongers nor Pag. 34. Sect. 1 drunkardes in the churche that are knowem bycause the churche doth excommunicate them wherby you seme to runne headlong into this heresye of the Anabaptistes that that is not the Churche of Christe in the whiche are knowen drunkardes and whoremongers no excommunication vsed against them The whiche heresye is well and learnedlye Caluine Bullinger confuted by M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewyse Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabap. Moreouer this your assertion séemeth to bring in rebaptisation For if whoremongers The assertion of the Replier tendeth to rebaptisation drunkardes and such lyke wycked persones by excommunication be so cut of from the Churche that their children may not be baptised then must it followe that their baptisme is cut of also which if it be true howe can they vpon repentance be admitted againe except they be rebaptised and what is this else but to make baptisme to be iterated as the Lorde ▪ supper is when as by the consent of all the Churches Baptisme once ministred remaineth per petuall there is but one baptisme wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened séeing that baptisme once receyued doth endure for euer as a perpetuall signe of our adoption And how can you allowe the baptisme of heretikes to be good if you disallowe the baptising of their children that be excommunicated may an heretike excommunicated baptise and is that baptisme good and may not the children of hym that is excommunicated receyue the sacrament of baptisme can any faulte of the parentes hauing once receyued the scale of the couenant seclude their chyldren from rcceyuing the same seale you haue neyther example nor precept in scripture to iustifie your assertion with it is against the nature of the sacrament the practise of the Church and the whole consent of learned wryters some fewe excepted which erred in rebaptisation and yet you boldely here set it downe without any further proofe at all S. Augustine in his booke Contraepist Parme. reasoneth wholy to the contrary for there he proueth that heretikes whiche cut of them selues from the Churche do neyther Heretikes loose not their baptisme amittere baptismum nor ius dandi baptismum that is neither leese their baptisme nor authoritie to baptise and therevpon concludeth against rebaptisation whiche must néedes followe if eyther of the other be taken away The Donatistes them selues were at the length compelled to confesse that heretikes deuided from the churche did not amitte e bapt smum leese their baptisme And in the same booke August hath this generall sentence That the faulte of such heretikes is in cutting of them selues from the churche which may be corrected by returning againe to the churche non in sacramentis quae vbicunque sunt ipsa vera sunt not in the sacramentes which wheresoeuer they are are true This being so as it is then are you very nere to Donatisme nay farre beyonde it in The Replier nere to Donatis e. saying that the chyldren of the heretykes and suche as by excommunication are cut of from the Churche maye not be baptised Surelye if the Parentes beyng heretikes and cut of from the Churche do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum keepe styll their baptisme as Saint Augustine sayeth I sée not howe by any meanes you can iustifie the secluding of theyr chyldren from being baptysed or if otherwyse I can not sée howe a Papiste beyng conuerted can bee receyued into the Churche without he bée anewe baptysed or howe suche chyldren of knowen Papistes and excommunicate persones as haue bene baptised in this Churche of Englande or else ◠here from the beginning of the Gospell to this daye can be coumpted Christians vnlesse they be rebaptised And concernyng Papistes whome you haue denyed to bée in the Churche Pag. 34. Sect. vii and to whose chyldren also you here denye baptisme I wyll aske you but this one question what you thynke of all those whiche are not onelye chyldren to professed and knowen Papistes but baptised also in the Romishe Churche for if the chyldren of knowen Papistes may not be baptysed what shall wée saye of our selues and of our Parentes and predecessours who all or the moste of them were professed Papistes is not this the grounde of Rebaptisation and Anabaptisme But that the Reader maye the better vnderstande your erroure and the rather beléeue it to be an errour in dée I wyll set downe M. Beza his opinion of this matter from whome you are lothe I am sure to be thought to dissent In his booke of Epistles Epist. 10 answering this question whether the infantes of suche as are excommunicated Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10. may be baptised and in whose fayth when as they of whome they are begotten are not members of the Churche determineth thus God forbidde that we should iudge all one and a lyke of all suche as are not called the members of the Churche for there are foure kyndes of men farre differing among them selues One is of them whiche neyther by election neyther in them selues are by anye meanes the members of Christe whome we cal by the worde of God reprobate and the vessels of anger and appointed to destruction although many of them sometime in apparance that is in outwarde profession yea and a certayne semblance of faythe continuing for a tyme wherewith they mocke both them selues and other are reckened among the members of the Churche of whome Iohn sayeth if they had bene of vs they would haue taryed with vs. The seconde is of those whiche are chosen in Christe by eternall election and therefore are the members of Christe yet by purpose onelye not in deede in whiche sense Paule sayth that he was seuered from his mothers wombe when as notwithstanding hee was a long tyme the member of Sathan persecuting Christ and in an other place sayeth that grace was giuen vs in Christe before euerlasting tymes and agayne that God loued vs when we were his enemies In the thyrde kynde wee counte them that bothe by election and in deede are the sonnes of God bycause as the Apostle sayth they are ruled by the spirite of God Finally in the fourth place wee recken those who whereas they appertayne to the election of God and be engraffed in Christ yet bycause hauing fallen in some thing as men often doe they be an offence to the other members therefore least the wound should bee deadlye whiche Sathan and the fleshe hath gyuen them neede a more sharpe remedye and are therfore excommunicated or delyuered to Sathan not that they should peryshe for it is not possible that they should peryshe whiche are the members of Christe But that godlye sorowefulnesse may cause repentance eyther that their fleshe that is the olde man dying their spirite may be saued in the daye of the
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
offended neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate M. Gualters meaning is that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu shing vice otherwise than by admonitions and reprehensions that is that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie by the word of God bycause all such authoritie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate So that if Byshops haue it they must haue it from him as it is in this Churche of England And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues but those must be appoynted by the magistrate and do all at his commaundement and not vsurp any distinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate The second poynte to be noted is when he sayth that Christian princes must subiecte The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer themselues to the Churche submitte their scepters throw downe their crownes before the Churche c. the whiche kind of speach the Pope himselfe vseth and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete And although T. C. seeme to mislike this excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s il whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae so Pag. 140. in the latter end that he woulde haue the Prince subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche and throw downe hir crowne before them that is to be con ent to be ruled and gouerned to be punished and corrected to be excommunicated and absolued by their discretion and at their pleasure This no doubt is his meaning neyther can it otherwise be for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche except it please master Pastor who is the chéefe and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie and make hym one of them and yet must the Pastor be his superior and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations and to direct him in matters of discipline and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors And yet now I remember my selfe the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie for T. C. al ttle Pa. 146. sect 1. after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic ll so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince vnder gouernment no gouernoure in matters perteyning to the Church And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection though it be most Gualter true and I will iustify it so to be I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affirmeth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle saying there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors and an Ecclesiasticall senate that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates if they at any time do not their duty And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie for they would gladly be in hand with magistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them The third point is in this that he would haue the gouernment of the common wealth The Replyer seeketh the uerthrow of monarchtes and the common wealth it selfe framed to the Churche and the gouernmente thereof as the hangings are made fit for the house whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of in the Church as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before Now the lawes of man will beare this I knowe not but I am well assured the Christ the Gospell o enin les so 〈◊〉 law of God will not suffer it For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouernment and ciuill policie neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes for S. Peter sayth 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi umanae propter dominum siue Reg 1. 1. Pet. 2. c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake whether it be vnto the king as to the superior And so Paule 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for 1. Timo. 2. kings which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church But I will not amplify this matter Let such consider of it to whome it doth specially perteine This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth but I denie the argumente and your similitude of house and hangings dothe not proue it All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes being also the Churches of God declare the contrary neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner but only among the Anabaptists Of like weyghtis your other reasō which is this Good men that is the Church are as it were the foundation of the worlde the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation therefore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand but the argumente is without all fashion and it is neyther true in matter nor forme For how pr e y u that good menne are the foundation of the worlde The fyrste menne were gréeuous transgressoures the moste of them The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them Moreouer the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde and so doth the common wealth and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men To conclude if all this were true yet dothe not the argumente followe For the foundation giueth strength but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it For a man maye make alterations in his house though he doe not once moue or
booke with other mēs collectiōs you wold neuer so oftē charge me with y e same I did not say as I told you before that bicause there was no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christiā Prince but this I say that y e Seniors which Ambrose speaketh of were extinguished before Ambrose time and were not in the time of christian Princes To what purpose do you accoūt y ◠time betwixt Philip Ambrose or Cōstantine and Ambrose you should rather proue that this kind of gouernment by Seniors was in Philips dominiō if he were christened which may be doubted or vnder Constantinus You say if I had euer read the ecclesiasticall stories I myght haue found easily the Eldership most florishing in Constantinus time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest You haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories how chaunce that you shew it not It is your parte to proue you holde the affirmatiue Bring foorth one Ecclesiastical historie that affirmeth this kind of gouernment to haue bin vnder Constantinus You might at the least haue quoted the Author with the booke and chapter that so sayth though you had disdayned to set downe his wordes I denie not but it might be so in some time and in some place vnder a christian Prince and yet I know not how you will be able to proue it but that is not the question For our contention is whether this kind of gouernment ought of necessitie to be vnder a christian Prince or not and whether it be conuenient so to be though it be not necessarie and not whether it hathe bin which notwithstanding can not be proued or may be Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 3. And that the Presbyterie or Eldership endured in the Church after Ambrose time and in the time of peace and as it is very like in Ambrose time although not where he was it may be shewed 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isaiā playnly by Hierome which followed Ambrose immediatly who in his third chapter vpon I say It is in the. 5. tom not in the. 4 sayth that they had also the Presbyterie or Eldership in the churche Io. Whitgifte Ierome speaketh not one word of your Presbyterie his words be these Et nos habemus Hier. 2. lib. in Isaiam in ecclesia senatū nostrū coetū presbyterorū And we haue in the Church our Senate a company of Elders Which he meaneth of Priests and of Colledges of Cathedrall Churches that were then in euery citie and not of a Seigniorie in euery congregation wherby What Presbyterie Ierō meaneth euery seuerall parish was gouerned That this was Ieromes meaning it appeareth in the same place vpō these words Hariolum senem where he interpreteth the word Presbyter sayth they be suche as S. Paule describeth in his Epistle to Tim. and those be ministers of the word and sacraments So may we say that we haue senatum coetum presbyterorum in this Church of England whether you will meane it of Synodes and conuocations or of Cathedrall Collegiate Churches which consist ex coetu presbyterorū of a companie of ministers And therfore Duarenus a learned writer speaking Duarenus of this Seigniorie sayth thus And it is to be noted that there was a certayne Colledge of those Elders he meaneth Priests as it is euidēt in that which goeth before in euery citie ouer whom the Bishop had rule suche as is at this day the Colledge of Canons which seeme to haue succeeded into their place And this company of Priests dothe Ierome call the senate of the Church This Senate cōsisteth of Priests yours of mē in no degrée of the ministerie This Differēce betwixte Ieroms presbyterie ▪ and that the Replyer would establishe Senate was only in euery citie the Bishop was the chiefe yours must be in euery parish directed by y e Pastor We reade not of any such iurisdiction that this Senate had ouer any but ouer the Cleargie yours must haue authoritie both ouer cleargie and laytie wherfore this place of Ierome doth not helpe you one whit But be it that this Seigniorie was y e same that you meane of and that it was in Ieromes church yet for as much as it was not in Ambrose his church also it manifestly appeareth to be a thing indifferent and not of necessitie to be vrged Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. The same might be shewed by diuers other testimonies which I omit bicause that it may appeare by the former treatise touching the election of the minister that this order of Eldership continued in the Church diuers hundred yeres after Ambrose tyme euen as long almost as there was any sounde parte of the churche from the head to the heele Io. Whitgifte But séeing that you haue hitherto brought foorth so few testimonies scil one only and that to smal purpose it had bin wel if you had not passed the rest ouer so lightly For it is soone sayde that diuers other testimonies might haue bin shewed but it had bin much for your credite if you had recited but one 〈◊〉 that we might at the least haue had two witnesses but in déede you are not able In your treatise of the election of ministers no such thing appeareth except you will haue whole parishes of the Seigniorie and the same to be without a Pastor who should be the guide For parishes do not vsually choose their Pastor vntill they be destitute Neyther is there any mention made by you or proofe in that treatise that there was a Seigniorie in euery parishe to whome the election was committed and therefore you doe but speake this pro forma tantùm Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shew how that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously himself abused or else desireth to abuse ether For if where as he tooke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe with him and had not sodenly stopped his breath that he shuld speake no more in stead of a false witnesse agaynst the Eldership he should haue brought foorth as cleare and as lat a witnesse for the proofe of them as a man could desire out of an auncient writer The whole sentence is thys speaking of this office of Elders although not vpon so good occasion Ambrose vpon 1. Ti. cap. 5. thus he sayth Whervpon the Synagogue and after the Churche had Elders without whose councell nothing was done in the Churche which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worne out onlesse it be through the slouthfulnesse of the Doctors or rather through their pride whylest they onely would seeme to be somewhat Io. Whitgifte But if you be not able to alleage one place to proue that your seigniorie was in the time of christian Princes except onely that place of Hieronie M. Doctors ignorance is not so great
election consequently y e throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together with the church the Eldership hath the principal swaye For y e decision of controuersies when they rise it may apeare in the. 15. of the Actes y t the Presbyterie or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also Now it remaineth here that wheras M. Doctor saith that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again doth perteme only to the minister y e I shew that the presbyterie or eldership the whole church also hath interest in the excommunication consequently in the absolution or restoring vnto the church But here by the waye it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting noted that in saying that it belongeth to y e minister he confesseth y e disorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and giuen to the Byshop and his officers Io. Whitgifte Of Election of ministers so of their reiection throwing out sufficient hath bin spoken Tract 3. before your manner of electing by better reasons confuted than it was by you proued for the decisions of controuersies when they arise it may appeare in the. 15. of y e Acts that the best way is to call Synodes Councels of learned mē as it was there practised not to cōmit such matters to the pastor of euery seuerall parish certaine of his neighbours whom you call the Seigniorie for if it had bin so what néeded Paule and Barnabas haue takē so long a iourney frō Antioche to Ierusalē for y e deciding of their cōtrouersies séeing y t they the Seigniorie if there had bin any such might haue ended the same at home in Antioche This place vndoubtedly ouerthroweth your Seigniorie except now you wil take it as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftētimes takē for a Synode or cōuocatiō of bishops priests so y e not your Seigniorie which is in euery parishe but general or prouincial Coūcels Synodes must haue y e deciding of cōtrouersies else as I sayd before why should Paule and Barnabas come from Antioche to Ierusalem to haue their controuersies determined Your note by the way is not worth a rushe for when I say y t the execution of discipline is onely committed to the ministers of the word you cannot therevpon cōclude that euery minister hath authoritie to exercise it in the church It is one thing to saye only ministers haue authoritie to excōmunicate to saye that all ministers haue authoritie so to do only ministers may be Bishops yet all ministers be not Bishops only Lawyers may be Iudges yet all Lawyers be not Iudges only citezens may be Aldermen Sherifes Maiors yet all be not so wherfore by the waye here you ouersot your selfe And yet I thinke that all ministers haue power to excommunicate if the Church thinke it good to committe that authoritie vnto them Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minister but chiefly to the Eldership and Pastor it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition alleage out of S. Mathew which place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. churche Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before how that place of Mathew is to be vnderstanded what it is to tell the Church namely either to reproue the partie openly before the congregation or else to complaine to such as haue authoritie in the church to whome y e executing of discipline is committed which is by the order of the church of Englande the Bishop And therefore the Bishop alone both by the lawes of God and of this churche of England which hath giuen vnto him by consent in Parliament that authoritie may exercise this discipline Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Then it was sayd tel l Math. 18. 17 the church now it is spoken complayne to my Lordes grace Primate and Metropolitane of all Englande or to his inferiour my Lorde Byshop of the Diocesse if not to hym shewe the Chauncellour or Officiall or Commissarie or Doctour Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 135. Sect. 1. As it was saide then so ought you and may you say now in priuate offences yf priuate admonitions wyll not serue then muste you declare them to the church either by reprehending of them publikely before the whole congregation if you be called therevnto for that is Churche signifieth those that haue authoritie in the churche one kynde of telling the churche or else by complayning to suche as haue authoritie in the church for in that place of Mathewe as all learned interpretours both olde and newe do determine the churche signifieth such as haue authoritie in the churche Therefore when you complayne to my Lordes grace Lorde Bishop of the Dioces or their Chauncellors Commissaries c. You tell the church that is suche as be appointed to be publike Magistrates in the churche according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. It is moste absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstāded either my Lordes grace or the Byshop of the Dioces or the Chauncellor or Commissarie And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayde to complayne vnto the churche whiche is the more vntollerable for that beyng so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe at that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by no reason by no lyke phrase of scripture by no authoritie of any Godly or approued wryter olde or newe whiche notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in his studie so paynefully whē he can haue but one against twenty and but a sillable where he cannot haue a sentence Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed sufficient authoritie for my saying euen the consent of all learned interpreters who by the church in that place vnderstande such as haue chiefe authoritie in the church which in this church of Englād as I haue sayd are bishops Chrysostome Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. sayth as much as I do so that it néede not to séeme so straunge that it should astonishe all thee heare it his wordes be these Dic ecclesiae Praesulibus scilicet Praesidentibus Tell the churche that is the Prelates and Presidents But you thinke to ouerlode me with vnséemely wordes howbeit that will not carry away the cause I am so vsed to them by you and yours both in speache and writing that I estéeme them now I thanke God as I do the dust of my féete If I seeke the writers so diligently and tourne the commentaries in my studie so painfully why do you so oft accuse me of ignorance wante of reading taking my pleasure Ex ore tuo te iudico c. mendacem
watring the grounde with the droppes of his teares he asked forgiuenesse But this proueth not that the people had anie authoritie in excommunicating of him In this Church of Englande though the Bishop alone doe excommunicate Excommunicate persons not receyued before publike confession and repentance yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious cryme is not receyued into the Churche againe before he haue made a publike confession in the open Congregation and asked pardon and forgiuenesse of his offence Wherefore there is nothing yet alledged of any such force to proue that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision Admonition Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4 ▪ 6. c. The sixtenth In that the Lord Bishops their Suffraganes Archdeacons Chauncelors Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials Proctors Doctors Sumners and such rauening rablers take vppon them whiche is most horrible the rule of Gods Churche spoyling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his owne flocke giuen by the worde thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order whiche Christ hath left to his Church and which the primitiue Church hath vsed 1. Tim. 4. 14 ▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 220. Sect. 1. And first you shewe yourselfe greatly offended that the Pastor is spoyled of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer his flocke therfore you brust out into these wordes of heat rauening rablers horrible sacrllegiously and such like It had bene well if you had tolde vs what that lawfull iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke giuen by the worde had beene For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose do not plainly enough set out that matter In the. 18. of Mathew vers 17. after certaine admonitions in priuate offences Christ sayth Dir Ecclesiae tell the Church In whiche place as I tolde you before the Church doth signifie such as haue authority in the Church or else publike reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto It giueth not any peculiar iurisdiction to the Pastor for any thing that I can learne And in the same Chapter 18. verse where Christ sayth vvhat soeuer ye binde on earth shall be bounde in heauen c. according to your iudgement vttered before it is ment of the whole Church and not of the Pastor onely You haue before denied that one man can excommunicate and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages he speaketh of this thing afresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehearsall of the places of the Admonition asking after his accustomed maner of confuting what maketh this or what proueth that onely whereas he sayde before and proued as he thought that the Minister had onely to doe with excommunication beeing pressed there by the Admonition eyther to defende or renounce his Chauncelors c. He had rather denie both the truth and himselfe than he woulde haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Poperie threatning the ouerthrowe of the whole Churche and seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and ydlenesse of a fewe to be driuen out of the Church Of the which I will vpon occasion speake a worde if first I shewe that the vse of the auncient Church hath beene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence thereof shoulde come from the gouernours and elders of the Church vnto whome that did especially apperteyne Although I cannot posse by that which maister Doctor sayeth that for so much as the Authours of the Admonition had alledged the wordes tell the Churche to proue the interest of the Churche in excommunication that therefore they coulde not vse the same to proue the interest of the Pastor as who shoulde say that the Pastor is not one of the Churche But of the absurditie of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and howe all men doe see the vanitie of this reason that bycause the people haue an interest by this place therefore the Pastor hath none Io. Whitgifte I do indéed speake of this matter there againe after a sort for I am driuen vnto it by the order of the Admonition But in all those words there by me vttered touching excōmunicatiō I do not once aske what maketh this or what maketh that as you charge me although I might iustly vse these kinde of questions as sufficient answeres to such vnskilfull quotations as they paint theyr margent with and somtimes indéed I make such demaundes but it is to shewe the fondnesse of their allegations I defende no Chauncelors c. that vsurpe any office wherevnto they be not lawfully called but I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confute them least thereby séeing the weaknesse of our reasons they be animated rather to procéede than perswaded to leaue of I doe not thinke that Chauncellours ought to excommunicate with this kinde of excommunication that wée talke of except they bée Ministers and so muche haue I vttered in my Answere but I will not disquiet the Church for it by séeking reformation extraordinarily neyther will I bée wilfull if I can heare any sounde reasons to remoue me from this perswasion wherfore you doe in this cause and in this place vniustly charge me The place in the eightéenth of Sainct Mathew is vnderstāded of those to whom the discipline of the Churche is by the authoritie of the Churche committed that is in this churche of Englande the Bishop And therfore that place can not proue that there is any iniurie done to the Pastor or that hée is spoyled of his lawful iurisdiction and this is the effect of my answere whereat you only cauill as your nature is I saye in déede that this place was before alleaged in the Admonition to proue that the whole Churche shoulde excommunicate and not one man onely and therefore I sée not howe the same place maye aptly bée alleadged to proue anye iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke séeyng it gyueth to the flocke equall iurisdiction with the Pastor and not to the Pastor any superioritie ouer them if the interpretation vsed in the Admonition be true Let the Reader consider the wordes of my Answere to the Admonition and trie whether there be any suche absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors to make the Scripture so pliable to your fansies and the same place to serue as many turnes as you lyst Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. past the middst But I come to shewe the vse of the primitiue Churche in this matter wherof we haue a manifeste This place of Tertullian is verie corruptly alleaged as will appeare ▪ testimonie in Tertullian If sayeth he there be any whiche haue committed suche a Tertull. in Apol.
wryter except I be greatly deceyued that Deacons were placed any where but in Cities and yet it is not to be thought but that there were Churches also in meaner Townes And surely no man without blushing can defend this argument there were Deacons at Ierusalem and at Philippos Ergo there were in euerie congregation Deacons It is like vnto this there be Preachers in Cambridge and London therefore in euerie parish in England there be preachers This is also vntrue that the Apostles ordeyned the same officers in all Churches For in chiefe and principall Cities they ordeyned Bishops to guide and gouerns the rest of the ministers which were in townes belonging to those cities as it is manifest by the examples of Iames Timothie and Titus but they did not ordeyne any such Bishops in euery congregation for further proofe of this I referre the reader to that Tract 8. which I haue spoken of Archbishops and Bishops The first to Timothie the third is as violently wrested to serue their purpose For S. Paule doth not speake one worde there of Deacons being in euery congregation onely he telleth what maner of man they ought to be And you are not able to shewe as I haue sayde by the practise of the Church that there were Deacons in euerie congregation These superscriptions and subscriptions that you talke of were then vsed when letters were sent to the Bishoppe Ministers and Deacons of chiefe Cities where all these commonly remayned and therefore cannot proue that euerie congregation had their Deacons The Deacons named in Councels were resident in Cities not in euerie congregation But among all these slender defenses of yours you leaue out the. 13. of S. Iohn The Admonitors left to their own defense vers 27. belike the Authors of the Admonition must answere that themselues as they must do many other places which you by silence passe ouer vnto them Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Nowe they are tyed to Cathedrall Churches onely and what do they there gather the almes and distribute it to the poore nay that is the least peece or rather no part of their function What then to sing a Gospell when the Bishop ministreth the Communion If this be not a peruerting of this office and charge let euery one iudge Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 121. Sect. 2. I am sure you are not offended that there be Deacons in Cathedrall Churches for if they ought to be in euery Congregation they ought to be there also and yet I knowe no such order nowe in Cathedrall Churches that they be more bounde to Deacons in the respect of reading the Gospell than other Churches be But admitte they were it is no peruerting of the office of a Deacon being incident to his office as well to read the Scriptures in the congregation and Diuerse state of the church Some part of the Deacons office not now so necessarie to exhort as to giue almes and distribute to the poore for the state of the Church is not nowe as it was in the Apostles time neither is that part of the office of a Deacon so necessarie now as it was then being lawes orders otherwise to prouide for the poore than there eyther was then or could haue bene T. C. pag. 153. Sect. 1. The thyrd poynte in this Deaconshyp is whether it be a necessary office in the churche or for a tyme only which controuersie should not haue bene if M. Doctors Englyshe tongue had bene agreable with his latine For in a certayne latine pamphlet of his wherof I spake before he maketh the Deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be takē out of the church here he This disco is in your care not in ong singeth an other song there because he thought the necessitie of the Deacon made for hym hee woulde needes haue Deacons here because it maketh against him he sayth there is no neede of thē wherby appeareth howe small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the Admonition with mutabilitie and discorde with them selues But that this office is durable perpetual it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the fixt of Timothie for the necessitie of Elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forthe whereof the Deacon is one Io. Whitgifte The onely thing that is spoken in that latin booke touching the continuance of Deacons in the Churche is this that they are not mentioned in the fourth to the Ephesians and yet they may not be taken out of the Churche In my Answere to the Admonition I saye that this parte of the office of a Deacon which consisteth in prouiding for the poore is not so necessary nowe as it was in the Apostles tyme. My englyshe tongue agreeth very well with my latine tongue for any signification of dissention that is here vttered I am fully perswaded that the office of a Deacon is to be reteyned in the churche for it is a degrée to the ministerie which consisteth in Preaching Baptizing and helping the ministers in other functions of the churche as I haue shewed But yet I saye that this parte of the office whiche consisteth in prouiding for the poore is not so necessary vnder a Christian prince when better prouision is made as it is vnder a Tyrant and in time of persecution Therfore I sing one and the selfe same song but you would gladly espye out the contrary if it were possible To your allegation out of the sixte of Timothie I haue answered fully it is but a conceyte of yours whiche your selfe wyll mislike when you be better aduised Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition And yet least the reformers of our tyme should seeme vtterly to take out of Gods church this necessary function they appoynte some thyng to it concerning the poore and that is to searche for the sycke needy and impotent people of the paryshe and to intimate their estates names and places where they dwell to the Curate that by his exhortation they maye be releeued by the Parishe or other conuenient almes And this you see is the nyghest parte of his office and yet you must vnderstande it to be in such places where there is a Curate and Deacon euery paryshe cannot bee at that coste to haue both nay no paryshe so farre as can be gathered at this present hath Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 122. Sect. 1. And what faulte can you fynde herewith is not this greatly to be commended If euery paryshe can not be at the coste to haue bothe Curate and Deacon why do you require them both in euery parishe why do you not thinke well of such lawes as appoynte Collectours for the poore whiche may as well prouide for them and better to than coulde the Deacon who must be susteyned hym selfe with that which the poore should haue T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that euery
churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sickenes and other infirmities c. and in the ende you conclude that if such maye be gotten wee ought also to keepe that order of wydowes in the churche still Surely if it be an order appointed of God to be perperpetuall and conteined vnder that denunciation to Timothie in the sixt chapter these ifs and ands can take no place for there are wydowes good store in this realme of Englande so that that excuse will not serue But it is a world to sée what you dare auouche be it neuer so vntrue contrary both to the practise of all reformed churches that I can heare of and iudgementes of all learned men that I haue read of this matter But if the institution of widowes be so necessay why should they not be in euerye congregation as wel as Deacons for the Apostle speaketh as directly of them in his epistle to Timothie as he doth of Deacons Againe if this be a sufficient excuse why the church hath no widowes to say that they cannot be gotten or there is none meete why will not the excuse serue the church for lacke of your Seniors also c. ¶ Of the Authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall mattets Tract 20. The. 1. Diuision Admonition And to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Churche to be committed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. vlt. This is only by you set downe without proofe therefore I will heare your reasons before I make you answere In the meane time I praye you what authoritie in these matters do you giue to the ciuill Where is the princes autho ritie magistrate me thinke I heare you whisper that the Prince hath no authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters I knowe it is a receiued opinion among some of you and therein you shake handes also with the Papistes and Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 153. Lin. vlt. c. Unto all the rest vntill the ende of the firste parte of the Admonition I haue answered already yet there is a poynte or two whiche I must touche whereof the first is in the. 126. pag. where hee would beare men in hande that the authours of the Admonition some other of their mynde would shut out the ciuill magistrate and the prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters Whiche surmise although I see it is not so much bicause either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as bicause he meaneth hereby to laye a bayte to entrappe withal thinking that where (a) Note these speaches he maketh no conscience to giue he careth not what authoritie to princes wee will be loth to giue more than the worde of God will permit wherby he hopeth to drawe vs into displeasure with the prince yet for bicause he shall vnderstande we nourishe no opinons secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in this part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymited by the worde of God of whome we are persuaded that as her maiestie knoweth so she will not vnwillingly heare y e truth in this behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the Admonition and those some other which you speake of that the prince and ciuill magistrate (b) VVhat {reversed} no more but to see them executed {reversed} how differeth this from Papistrie {reversed} hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed and duly obserued and to see that euery ecclesiasticall persone do that office whervnto he is appointed to punish those which faile in their office accordingly (c) The prince spoyled of authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders As for y e making of y e orders and ceremonies of the churche they do where there is a constituted and ordered churche perteyne vnto the ministers of y e church and to the ecclesiasticall gouernours that as they medle not with y e making of ciuill lawes lawes for the common wealth so the ciuill magistrate hath not to ordeyne ceremonies perteining to the church But if those to whome that doth apperteyne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them driue them to better for so much as the ciuil magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against y e glorie of God in his dominiō Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the Admonition pag. 126. be these and fo these three ioyntly that is the The Admoni tors and T. C. ioyne with the Papistes against the Queenes supremacie in matters ecclesiasticall Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regimēt of the churche to be committed Wherfore they spoyle the ciuill magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiasticall matters for if the whole gouernmēt of the church is to be cōmitted to Ministers Seniors Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuil magistrate in the gouernment of it Agreable to this disobedient spirite erroneous Papisticall doctrine is that in the second Admonitiō Fol. 8. 9. where the authors of that booke take from the ciuill magistrate all supremacie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by euident circumstances call his authoritie vsed in those things vsurped pag. 57. they saye only meere ciuill lawes are to be made And here in this place T. C. in expresse wordes taketh from the ciuill magistrate all authoritie of makyng and appointing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orders and ceremonies of the church and giueth the same onely to ministers and eccle asticall gouerne rs he maketh it the princes dutie to see those awes executed which these eccle asticall gouernours shall appoynte and prescribe and in his Preface he saith that eiuill persones may not handle ecclesiastical matters and Pag. 35. 145. y e the ciuil magistrate may not be the head of the church in that common wealth whereof he is the head Where by as I suppose he meaneth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 supreame gouernour and that the churche may bee established without him Pag. 54. hee denieth that the magistrate ought to prescribe what kynde of apparell ministers should 〈◊〉 In diuers places he maketh such a distinction betwixt the church of Christ a Christian cōmon wealth y t hath a Christiā magistrate as he would do betwixt the church a Heathenishe common wealth y t hath a persecuting and an vnbeleuing magistrate and separateth the common wealth of Englande as farre from the churche of Englande as he can do the common wealthe of Turcia from the churche of Christ in Turcia all this I haue noted to this ende that the good subiect and those that be carefull for the preseruation of the state of this Realme and the lawefull authoritie of hir Maiestie may the better consider and
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
griefe and dismay of all those that professe Christian religion and labour to atteyne Christian reformation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 146. 147. 148. You complayne muche of vnbrotherly and vncharitable entreating Complaynte of persecution without cause of you of remouing you from your offices and places Surely in this poynt I must compare you to certayne Heretikes that were in Augustines time who moste bitterly by sundry meanes afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Churche yet for all that cried out that they were extremely dealt with and cruelly persecuted by them or else vnto a shrewde and vngratious wyfe which beating hir husbande by hir clamorous complaynts maketh hir neighbours Persecution of the tongue beleeue that hir husbande beateth hir or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequies that dyd steale and runne away with the Priestes purse ▪ and yet cried alwayes as he ranne stay the theefe stay the theefe and thus crying escaped and yet he was the theefe him selfe You are as gentlye entreated as maye be no kinde of brotherly persuation omitted towards you most of you as yet keepe your liuings though some one or two be displaced you are offered all kinde of friendlynesse if you could be content to conforme your selues yea but to be quiet and holde your peace You on the contrary side moste vnchristianly and moste vnbrotherly bothe publikely and priuately rayle on those that shewe this humanitie towards you slaunder them by all meanes you can and moste vntruely reporte of them seeking by all meanes their discredite Agayne they as their Disobediēce allegiance to the Prince and duetie to lawes requireth yea and as some of them by othe are bounde doe execute that discipline whiche the Prince the lawe and theyr othe requireth you contrarie to all obedience duetie and othe openly violate and breake those lawes orders and statutes whiche you ought to obey and to the whiche A token of a good conscience some of you by othe is bounde If your doings proceede in deede from a good conscience then leaue that liuing and place which byndeth you to those things that be agaynst your conscience for why shoulde you striue with the disquietnesse bothe of your selues and others to keepe that liuing which by lawe you can not excepte you offend agaynst your conscience Or what honestie is there to sweare to statutes and lawes and when you haue so done contrary to your othe to breake them and yet still to remayne vnder them and enioy that place which requireth obedience and subiection to them For my parte I thinke it muche better by remouing you from your lyuings to offende you than by suffering you to enioy them to offende the Prince the lawe conscience and God And before God I speake it if I were persuaded as you seeme to be I woulde rather quietly forsake all the liuings I haue than be an occasion of strife and contention in the Church and a cause of stumbling to the weake and reioycing to the wicked I knowe God woulde prouide for me if I did it bona conscientia yea surely I woulde rather dye than be an author of schismes a disturber of the common peace and quietnesse of the Church and state There is no reformed Churche that I can heare Euery church hath a determinate order of ceremonies tell of but it hath a certayne prescript and determinate order aswel touching ceremonies and discipline as doctrine to the whiche all those are constrayned to giue their consent that will liue vnder the protection of it and why then maye not this Churche of Englande haue so in like maner Is it meete that euery man should haue his owne phansie or liue as him liste Truely I knowe not wherevnto these your dooings can tende but eyther to Anabaptisme or to meere confusion But nowe to the reasons that moue you not to subscribe to those Articles ministred vnto you by hir Maiesties highe Commissioners T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Pleasant diuinitie Doctor was disposed to make him selfe and his Reader merie but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the harpe or lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed by togither the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the thiefe that tooke away the Priests purse very familiar and homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hoppe about the house but the learned and the wyse can not daunce by this instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their liuings without iust cause to heretikes curst wyues and to theeues but all men do vnderstande how rightly What his troubles be within and in his conscience the Lorde God and he knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffreth it is not suche as he neede thus to stoupe and to grone and to blowe vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon his shoulders And if he cōplayne of the persecution of the tongue to let passe his immoderate heate of speeche whych he vseth with those that he hathe to doe withall the tongue whiche is more intemperate than his is in all his booke shall hardely be founde Io. Whitgifte And I thanke God I can be mery with the bagpype I am neyther ashamed of the Instrument nor of the countrey But what diuinitie call you this alacke poore spite at the bagpipe Surely you doe me a pleasure when you tell me of it You haue omitted nothing that by any meanes might serue you for a iest O great grauitie c. But let vs leaue puerilia pueris I knowe none of you put from your liuings without moste iuste cause if there be any iniuried that wayes God be thanked they maye finde iustice My quietnesse within my conscience I moste humbly thanke my God therefore dothe mitigate the heate of the slaunderous generation and maketh me more willing to deale agaynst that secte that can not be maynteyned without suche kinde of vncharitable and slaunderous dealing I remember what Cyprian sayth to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Ecclesiasticall Cyprian discipline is not therefore to be lefte of nor the seueritie that becommeth a Priest to be slackned bicause we are reuiled and euill spoken of c. And agayne The opprobrious speeches of the wicked ought not to moue vs so that we decline from the righte way and the sure rule seeing that the Apostle instructeth vs saying If I ▪ shoulde please men I were not the seruant of Christ. If the heate of my tongue be immoderate what shall be sayde of yours But this kinde of dealing is nothing méete for vs. Wherefore if you continue in this vayne you shall haue the best game for me T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be vnreasonable inoughe that he shoulde not giue men leaue to complayne of their troubles
when he glorieth in troubling them yet that of all is most vntollerable that besides the iniurie which he dothe them he is angry that they wyll not lay handes of them selues by casting themselues out of their liuings or euer they be cast out by him Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria whiche when he had caused Q. Sceuola a singular man to be wounded and sawe that he dyed not of it conuented him before the Iudges and beeing asked what he had to accuse him of answered for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was striken to enter into hys body euen so M. Doctor contenteth not him selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men but accuseth them also that they will not doe it vnto them selues or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so farre as he would haue them Io. Whitgifte I trust there is not one that can iustly saye I haue without great cause molested him if there be any suche or whome I haue by any meanes iniuried I refuse not to answere and to satisfie him yea it is my desire that it maye come to the triall so shall many slaunderous spéeches togither with the authors of them be founde as they are C. Fimbria was a very proude sedicious Romane and one that disquieted the C. Fimbria Q. Sceuola state of the common wealth and greatly enuied his superiours Q. Sceuola was a wyse and a prudent Senatour one that liued in authoritie and obserued lawes him selfe and caused the same to be obserued by other Sceuola surely you can not be for you are neyther of that credite for wisdome nor of that authoritie in the cōmon wealth nor so diligent an obseruer of good orders and lawes your conditions come nearer to Fimbria I will not conclude you shall doe it your selfe If I haue done you any iniurie prosecute it to the vttermoste and spare not I neuer entreated you to holde your peace The greatest iniurie that I acknowledge my selfe guiltie of is vnto the Colledge that I so long suffered you contrarie to your expresse othe to vsurpe a place therein to the great hinderaunce and disquieting thereof T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his liuing in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there vsed Is it not inough to abstayne from them if there be any euill in them or to declare the vnlawfulnesse of thē if his calling do suffer him when as the reformation is not in his power And if eyther of this absteyning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnesse of them troubles be moued there is no more cause why they should giue place than the other which like of those disorders yea there is lesse cause for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other and for that by their departure out of their places roome is made for those which will lyke of those disorders whiche the other misliked whiche is to the hurte of that companie or congregation in suche places Io. Whitgifte If he be sworne to kéepe those orders kéeping his liuing if as honest men as he is will lyke of them If his equals or rather betters might supply his place I thinke he ought rather to satisfie his othe or to refuse his liuing if he wyll auoyde periurie yea though there were no such méete persons to succéede him But if the case be this that a man shall directly sweare eyther to doe such a thing by such a tyme or to leaue his place if by that time he neyther do the thing by othe required nor leaue his place but still vsurpe the same at the least the space of fiue yeres I thinke he ought to be displaced for periurie whiche is a greater matter than eyther cappe or surplesse I doe but nowe put a case that men may vnderstande euery man that is displaced not to be displaced without great and vrgent occasion I woulde not enter into thys vayne if I were not vrged Therefore to answere in one worde for all I haue put no man out of his liuing but there is greater cause why he should be ashamed to cōplayne of iniurie than I to doe according to my othe and duetie T. C. Pag. 156. tovvards the ende And as for M. Doctors easinesse to depart from his liuing rather than he woulde cause any trouble he giueth men great cause to doubt of whiche hauing diuers great liuings and amongest them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others to doe his duetie at any of them It is true that the Church of England may haue an order whervnto it may iustly require the subscription of the ministers in Englande And so is it likewyse vntrue that we desire that euery one shoulde haue his owne fansie and lyue as him listeth for we also desire an vniforme order but suche and in suche sorte as we haue before declared As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion it is answered before therfore according to my promise I will leaue your words and if you haue any matter I will speake to that Io. Whitgifte This was obiected and answered before God knoweth my heart and I am ready to giue myne accompte when I am therevnto by order called orders you wyll admitte but suche as pleaseth you that is you will be in order if you maye doe what you liste ¶ Of subscribing to the Communion Booke Tract 21. Certayne generall faults wherewith the booke is charged by the Admonitors Chap. 1. the first Diuision The first article Fyrst that the booke commonly called the booke of common prayers for the Churche of Englande Of subscribing to the communion booke authorised by Parliament and all and euery contents therein be suche as are not repugnant to the worde of God Admonition Albeit right Honorable and dearely beloued we haue at all times borne with that whiche we could not amende in this booke and haue vsed the same in our ministerie so farre foorth as we might reuerencing those times and those persons in whiche and by whome it was first authorised beeing studious of peace and of the buylding vp of Christes church yet nowe beeing compelled by subscription to allowe the same and to confesse it not to be against the worde of God in any poynt but tollerable we must needes say as followeth that this booke is an vnperfect booke culled and picked out of the Popishe dunghill the Masse booke full of all abhominations for some and many of the contents therein be suche as are agaynst the worde of God as by his grace shall be proued vnto you And by the waye we can not but muche maruell at the crafcie wilinesse of those men whose parts it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therein to be agreable to the worde of God seeing that they forcemen by subscription to consent vnto it or else sende them packing from their callings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
had no suche prescript forme Be The replyer had rather conforme him selfe to the Iewes than o this church it so but will you driue vs to conforme our selues to the Iewes ceremonies do you thinke that touching the dead or being at burialls will now make the minister vncleane I vnderstand not to what end you should alleadge any such proofes vnlesse you would haue vs to retourne againe to Iudaisme This kind of reasoning from the ceremoniall law is not only of no force but also very dangerous as though Christians were bound to behaue themselues according to that law Surely it should séeme that you could rather consent to the bringing in of Iudaisme than to the Christian orders now appointed in the Church There might be and so there was a prescripte forme of burying the dead among the Iewes although the Priest was absent therfore if this kinde of reasoning from the examples of the Iewes were of any force yet cannot this your argument proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme to bury the dead In the fourth place you reason thus A new charge may not belayd vpon the minister nor The duetie of ministers not hindred by burying the dead he maye not be taken from his necessary duties of feeding and gouerning his flocke c. but by burying the dead a new charge is layd vpon him and he is taken from his necessary duties c. therefore the minister may not bury the dead Your Minor is false for it is no new charge laide vpon him is it not his duty to reade the scriptures to gyue thanks to pray and to exhort in the publike congregation doth he not féede when he so doth nay when is there a more apt time of féeding will you giue him time to be Pa. 49. Se. vlt absent from his flocke vpon his owne businesse as before you haue done and shal he haue no time to bury their dead Surely I cannot conceiue how this function of burying the dead should one iote hinder the minister f ō any one part of his dutie And I thinke these reasons of yours too weake to allure any man into your opinion or to plucke downe any thing that is already builded If you séeke for alteration you must vse pro ound and inuincible proofes for no wise man will be moued to a change without vrgent and especiall cause I passe ouer this and such like matters the more lightly bycause I take the lightnesse of your arguments to be such as of themselues they be a sufficient discredite to your cause and adde with such a be learned and not led by affection a greater strength and confirmation both to the doctrine and also to the gouernment of this Church of England Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 199. Sect. 4. The threefolde peale mourning apparell buriall sermons the place of buriall which way they must lye how they must be fetched to the Church a crosse white or blacke set vpon the dead corps bread giuen to the poore offerings in buriall time vsed cakes sent abroade to friends you confesse not to be conteined within the booke and so you ease me of some laboure But yet of mourning apparell and auriall Of mourning pparell sermons giue me leaue to speake a little It is no good reason to say that bycause mourning apparell is only vsed of custome therefore it is superstitious and heathenishe many thinges be vsed of custome wh ch be neyther superstitious nor heathenish as to receiue the communion before dinner to celebrate the Lords day on the Sunday not on the Saterday to preach in pulpits and such like Mourning Mourning apparell auncient apparell is of greate antiquitie as you knowe and I thinke it is no matter of religion but of ciuilitie and order If any man put religion in it then no doubt it is superstitious T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 2. For the mourning apparell the Admonition (*) Vntruth 〈◊〉 their word be playne sayth not simply it is euill bycause it is done of custome but proueth that it is hypocriticall oftentimes for that it proceedeth not from any sadnesse of mind whiche it dothe pretende but worne only of ustome there being vnder a mourning gowne oftentimes a merry hart And considering that where there is sorrow indeede for the dead there it is very hard for a man to keepe a measure that he do not lament too much we ought not to vse these meanes whereby we might be further prouoked to sorrow and so go a great way beyond the measure which the Apostle appointeth in mourning no more than it was well done of the Iewes in the Gospell to prouoke weeping and sorrow for their dead by some dolefull noyse or 1. Thes. 4. Math. 9. Iohn 11. sound of instrument or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to go to hir brothers graue thereby to set the pri t of hir sorrow deeper in hir mind Seing therefore if there be no sorrow it is hypocriticall to pretend it and i there be ▪ it is very dangerous to prouoke it or to carry the notes of remembrance of it it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparell were much better layd away than kept And here M. Doctor th eapes alittle kindnesse of the authours of the Admonition and Cyp. 4. sermone de mortalitate Augus li. 2. de consolat mortuorum saith that they know it is very anncient whome before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquitie Indeede it is very auncient but M. Doctor is afrayd to shew the a ciencie of it for Cyprian and Augustine inueigh vnhemently against it condemning it as vnlawfull and vndecent Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonitiō be these Nor of their strange mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocriticall yet is it superstitious and heathenish bycause it is vsed only of custome Let the Reader now iudge whether the Admonition dothe conclude this apparell to be heathenish and superstitious only bycause it is vsed of custome or no. Truly in my simple iudgement their words be playner than that they can be excused Your reason of Hypocrisie is no more sufficient to condemne mourning apparell than it is to condemne any other ciuill and decent o der By the like reason I might improue your wearing of a turky gowne and a hat bycause that kind of apparel being a token of such persons as mislike the gowne and the square cap and pretende precisenesse aboue the rest is notwithstanding commonly worne of such as in other places than in London both weare and like the other and be precise neither in lyfe nor doctrine And what is it that I annot disproue if this be a sufficient argument to say some mē do abuse it or some men do hypocritically vse it Ergo it is not to be vsed Your other reason that it prouoketh more seruice for the dead than is conuenient if it were true that it so did
made with scraping the sée vpon the ground as it is vsed by them in derision so is it of it selfe ridiculeus and not worthie to be answered besides it is vntrue for it hindereth no more the worde béeing read than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached But Lorde how sparing are you of time that will not spare so much as may serue a man to bow his knée in Well it is but a pretence to helpe out with a merie argument for I dare say neyther they nor you are so vndiscrete as to vse it in good sadnesse Their second reason hash some more grauitie in it though not much more weight and your addition that it may breede a daungerous opinion of the inequalitie eyther of the Sanne of God with the other persons or of the Gospell with other Scriptures is but supposed and a man may suppose the Moone to be made of gréene chéese That gesture at the name of Iesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred yeares and yet neuer any was heard tell of that fell into eyther of these opinions by the meanes thereof One reason that moued Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of Iesus name of Iesus than at any other name of God was bicause this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked Iewes and other persecutors of such as professed the name of Iesus for the other names of God they had in reuerence but this they could not abide wherefore the Christians to signifie their fayth in Iesus and theyr obedience vnto him and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the Iewes and other infidels vsed to doe bodily reuerence at all tymes when they heard the name of Iesus but especially when the Gospell was read which conteyned that glad tydings of saluation which is procured vnto man by Christ Iesus wherevpon also he is called Iesus that is a Sauior Neyther can it be agaynst christianitie to shewe bodily reuerence when he is named by whom not onely all the spirituall enimies of mankinde are subdued but also the faythfull be made partakers of the kingdome of heauen Wherefore as I binde no man of necessitie to this reuerence at the name of Iesus so do I not iudge any man that hauing knowledge vseth the same for I will not holster and defende superstitious ignorance It must néedes be malicious dealing to charge the common order and booke of publike prayer with particular faults of priuate men and places If you knowe where these abuses be and will complaine of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop I dare say they will reforme them There is better reason why one Pastor may haue two benefices than one Curate serue in two cures for ministring of the Sacraments and reading publike prayers dayly doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the worde A man may better in one day preach at two Churches than he can at them both minister the Sacraments and celebrate publike prayers That Pastor that hath two benefices and two good Curates at them both may with much more facilitie do his dutie both towardes his Churches particularly and the whole Church generally Of Cathedrall Churches c. Tract 22. Admonition As for Organs and curi ns singing though they be proper to popish dennes I meane to Cathedrall Churches yet some others also must haue them The Queenes Chappell and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 206. Sect. 1. Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches Popish dennes As hap is your wordes are no slaunder But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches and such as be nowe in them I will offer vnto you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England which I my selfe do know the worst whereof in learning shall encounter with al Papistes Puritanes Anabaptists and what other sectes soeuer in Englande for the defense of religion now professed eyther by worde or wryting Without arrogancie be it spoken I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise learned and godly men than they be at this day I speake not this boastingly but to Gods glorie the honour of the Prince the comfort of the godly and the shame of slaunderous Papistes and disdainfull Schismatikes Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions is rather seuerely to be punished than with words to be confuted T. C. Page 163. tovvardes the ende Pag 164. Sect. 1. As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches either it is nothing or else it is false For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one or in euerie of those 12. churches one which is able to confute Papists c. What great thing sayth he which sayth no more of all these Churches than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme when there was yet some one almost in euery Church which for feare dissembling was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists Anabaptists Puritanes And if he meane that in those twelue houses the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth yet howe so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it a meere bragge And yet I doubt not and a well assured that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyterers and idle persons whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie but rather hurt of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the colour of their Prebendes there absent themselues from them and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheere with and therfore not without good cause called dennes Finally there being nothing there which might not be much better applyed and to the greater commoditie of the Church whilst they might be turned into Colledges where yong men might be brought vp in good learning and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schollers wherwith there neede may be supplyed And where M. D. sayth that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell is worthie rather to be punished than confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in hir matesties
chappell cannot be but most daungerous which with all humble submission and reuerence I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider Io. Whitgifte My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe I will more plainly declare my meaning whiche is this that there is not one of these dozen Churches but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed howe so euer boastinglye which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie but yet there vnto constreyned by the arrogancie of such qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches as mere slaunders and procéeding from a minde ouercome with enuie and contempt of other I passe ouer affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition the which you may wel snap and bite at in words but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places and whatsoeuer you pretende to the vniuersities yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is towardes the other they both depending vpon one thréede But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell as you suppose why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly Why haue you sought it tumultuously why haue you libelled agaynst it why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes with disquieting the Church without all dutie and order The. 2. Diuision Admonition The seuentéenth We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers where maister Deane ▪ maistr Uicedeane maister Canons or maister Prebendaries the greater maister pecie Canons or Canons the lesser maister Chauncelor of the Church master Treasurer or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer the chief Chauncer Singing men speciall fauourers of religion squeaking Queristers Organ players Gospellers Pistellers ▪ Pentioners Readers Uergers c. liue in great idlenesse and haue theyr abyding If you woulde knowe whence all these came we can easily answere you that they came from the Pope as out of the Troian horses bellie to the destruction of Gods kingdome The Church of God neuer knew them neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. pag. 225. Sect. 1. Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly zealous Learned men in cathedrall Churches and learned men And that they be the chiefe and principall ornaments of this Realme and next to the Uniuersities chiefest mainteyners of godlynesse religion and learning there be some desire the spoyle of them whose instruments you be But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth Maister Deane maister Uicedeane maister Canons c. as much as they loyter may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are in any respectes T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie which he doth barely say and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges as ag ynst them I haue answered before sauing that it is to be feared that Colleges in Uniuersities if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about will shortly be in little better case than those cathedrall Churches which not only by his owne example but with might maine and all indeuour possible goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies and such as haue charges of Churches in other places (*) What will this slaundrous tongue spare which do no good in the vniuersitie and partly are such as can do none onely are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided Io. Whitgifte If I may work that which you say I go about I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either frō the glory of God the honor of the Prince the peace of the church the cōmendation of the vniuersitie or the encrease of godlinesse learning I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing nor intende to do whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hotte and ter 〈◊〉 or afrayde to make mine accompt But who séeth not your greefe In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do to disquiet y e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions I may not suffer them openly to breake contemne those lawes statutes which they are sworne to obserue and I to execute I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe against all honestie and conscience to liue vnder me least I be partaker of his periurie these be the things that I haue done and these be the thinges that I intende to do whereby as hitherto I haue kepte the place where I am in some quiet and good order so do I trust to continue it both to the glorie of God the honour of the Prince the great encrease of learning the edifying of Christes Churche and the commendation both of the Colledge and the whole Uniuersitie And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and The colledge deliuered from the slanderous Replie the Colledge yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe as I sayde in the beginning yet are you in act and déede confuted though I should not speake one woorde for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments and earnest desire of al that be factious the Colledge was neuer in better quietnesse neuer replenished with more towarde scholers neuer fuller of students of all degrées I speake it to Gods glory to deliuer it frō your slaunders than it is at this presente A great occasion of all these blissinges of God as instruments and meanes is the grauitie the honestie the wisedome the learning the discrete gouernment of those whom you call non residentes whom not I but the noble founders statutes ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie and allowed of by the wysest of the
158. Lin. 15. c. that can not sée Beside this it is a Popish and an vngodly opinion contrarie to the worthinesse and profitablenesse of the Scriptures contrarie to the wordes of Christ Iobn 5. Iohn 5. Search the Scripture c. contrarie to the wordes of the Apostle 2. Tim. 3. Omnis 2. Tim. 3. Tract 13. scriptura diuinitùs inspirata c. And contrarie to all that that I haue alleaged before for the reading of the Scriptures to the which for the further confutation of this vngodly error I do referre the Reader Ansvvere to the Detractions c. Fol. 3. Iu the same leafe and fift reason to these wordes Besides that we neuer reade in the new Testament that this worde Priest as touching office is vsed in the Correction with exceptiō good part In the seconde edition is added except it speake of the Leuiticall Priesthoode or of the Priesthood of Christ. Here as I thinke they haue forgotten that which Peter speaketh to all Christians in his 1. Epist. cap. 2. ver 5. And ye as lyuely stones be made a spirituall house and holy Priesthod to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. ver 9. But ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood c. And Apo. 1. And make vs Kings and Priests vnto God c. I willed them before to shew me one place in the whole newe Testament where this word Priest as touching the office is takē in euill part I may be deceyued but I desire to learne T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 1. And vpon the. 3. leafe where he giueth instance in the Apocalips of the word Priest to be taken otherwise than for the Leuitical priesthood and priesthood of our sauiour Christ. M. D. cannot be ignorant that the Admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deed properly and not by those which are priests by a inctaphore and borowed speach And wheras he desireth to learne where the worde priest is taken in euill part in all the new testament Although all men see how he asketh this question of no mind to learne yet if he will learne as he sayth he shall find that in (*) In what Chapter ▪ the Acts of the Apostles it is taken diuers times in euill part For seing that the office function of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of priests was after our sauiour christs ascētion naught vngodly the name wherby they were called which did exercise that vngodly function cannot be otherwise takē than in the euil part Io. Whitgifte And what say you to the places of S. Peter is not this worde priest taken in good part there also I desired to haue one place in all the new Testamēt named vnto me where this word priest is taken in euil part you send me ouer to the Acts of the Apostles naming neither text nor chapter yet that satisfieth not my request for the Authors of the Admonition in their corrections except the Leuitical priesthood and the priesthood of Christ whereof onely there is mention made in the Actes of the Apostles except it be in the. 14. of the Acts where Luke speaketh of heathnish priests as of the priest of Jupiter so that my question is as yet vnanswered by you Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 5. But of the Bishops benediction by laying on of his handes heare master Caluines iudgement in this Instit. cap. 19. Section 4. Talem manuum Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by Caluin impositionem quae simpliciter loco benedictionis fiat laudo restitutam hodiè in purum vsum velim Such imposition of handes as is simplie made in the stead of blessing I do commende and vvish that it vvere restored at this day to the pure vse There shall you also read the verie self same forme and maner of confirmation allowed which is now vsed in this Church of England T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 2. Master Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe cyteth M. Caluins authoritie to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children the confirmation which is here vsed is good In the which place although he allow of a kinde of confirmation yet he doth not commend that which we haue For he doth plainly reproue Ierome for saying that it came from the Apostles which notwithstanding the confirmation with vs doth affirme Besides that there are other abuses which I haue noted there which M. Caluin doth not by any worde allow He alloweth indeede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childehoode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those which did thrust it out of the Chuch where he was Pastor And (*) He re you make M. Caluine contrarie to him selfe but vntruly so he alloweth of it that he bringeth in the sixt Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes shoulde do now seeing that the giftes of the holy Ghost by that ceremonie is ceased Therefore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason agaynst this imposition of handes his name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seeing that we haue experience of great inconuemences which come by it which maister Caluin could not haue that thing being not in vse in that Church where he liued Which inconuenience in things which are not necessarie ought to be a iust cause of abolishing of them And this is not my indgement onely but the iudgement of the Churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. Chap. of their confession Io. Whitgifte The common refuge of the Replier is to discredite the Authour Here you would shift of M. Caluins authoritie if you knew how but béeing ouerpressed with his manifest wordes you flie to your common vsual refuge that is to discredite the Authour by charging him with contrarieties in this matter for you confesse that he alloweth a kind of confimation you say also that he alloweth in deed of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childhoode or begin to be yong men and againe you affirme that he was one of those that did thrust it oute of the Churche where he was Pastor and that he bringeth in the 6. Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Thus you set Master Caluine against himselfe and that in the same Caluin vntruely charged with contrariety by the Replyer Chapter which cannot but turne to his great discredite if it were true but you greatly abuse both the Reader and him for in the. 4. section which I haue alledged he speaketh of that maner of confirmation imposition of handes which was vsed in the olde Church and the same that is nowe vsed in the Church of Englande which he alloweth and wisheth restored In the fifth
tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of
it excuse it from being a libell being not orderly in Parliament propounded but disorderedly I might say seditiously spread abroade in corners to the defamation of thys whole state and Church of England not to any reformation But to satisfye your desire that would so gladly know what a libell is I will tell A libell what it is you in few words An infamous libell is that that is written in verse or in prose to y t infamy slander of any man to y ◠which the author dare not set his name This is an infamous libel it most aptly agréeth to y ◠booke called an Admonition to y e Parliamēt So that by this definition your obiectiō also of y e booke of y e Apocalips of the epistle to the Hebrues is soone answered for al those bookes are not libells which are published without the authours name but those whiche are published to the infamy or slander of others to the which the authors dare not set their names An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets The third commeth of the same spirit that the secōd doth that is The libellers fitly compared to the Pharisies of the spirit of arrogancie and malice for it compareth godly wise zelous learned bishops to idolatrous Priestes to Pharisies but indeede the conditions qualities of the Phariseis do most aptly agree with y e authors of these Libels their adherēts for the Pharisies did al that they did to be seene of men sought the commēdation Description of a Pharisie of the common people as appeareth Math. 6. 23. so do they The Pharisies when they fasted disfigured their faces these walking in the streates hang downe their heads looke austerely and in company sigh muche and seldome or neuer laugh the Pharisies strayned out a gnat and swallowed downe a camell And these men think it an heynous offence to weare a cap or a surplisse but in slaundering and backbyting their brethren in rayling on them by libels in contemning of superiors and discrediting such as be in authoritie to be short in disquieting the Churche and state they haue no conscience The Phariseis separated themselues from the common sort of men as more holy and contemned the poore Publicanes as sinners And therefore some learned interpreters thinke that they be called Pharisaei quasi segregati quòd vitae sanctimonia à vulgi moribus vita separati essent non aliter Fost rus in dictionar hebraico atque monachi quos Chartusianos vocant They be called Phariseis as separated and deuided from the commō sort in holynes of life much like vnto the Monkes which be called Carthusians And Iosephus saith that they were called Phariseis bycause they seemed to be more holy than other and more Lib. 1 cap. 2. de bello iudaico Lib. antiquit Tom. 2. lib. 18. cap. 2. Tom. 2. lib. 17. cap. 3. cunningly to expound the law Also he saythe thys to be one propertie of theirs that whatsoeuer their owne reason perswadeth them Id sequuntur pertinaciter that they stubbornly follow Agayne he sayth that they be astutum hominum genus arrogans interdum Regibus quoque infestum c. A subtile kynde of men arrogant and sometimes enimies to kings and rulers These men separate themselues also from the congregation and will communicate with vs neither in prayers hearing the word nor sacraments they contemne and despise all those that be not of their sect as polluted and not worthy to be saluted or kept company with and therefore some of them meeting their old acquaintance being godly preachers haue not only refused to salute them but spit in their faces wishing the plague of God to light vpon them and saying that they were damned and that God had taken his spirit from them and all this bycause they did weare a cappe wherefore when they talke of Phariseis they plucke themselues by the noses But Lord what a straunge time is this when such as they be dare thus boldly publish libells against their superiours for mainteining and executing good and godly lawes The conclusion of this preface is a stoute presumptuous and malapert threatning in my opinion not to be suffered But howsoeuer your pen and tongue walketh yet I pray you holde your handes or else c. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. 2. Whereas M. Doctor compareth vs with the Phariseys and saythe we do all to be seene of men and that we hold downe our heads in the streates and straine at a gn t swallowing downe a Camell bycause they are in all mens knowledge I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those things Where he saith we seldome or neuer laugh it is not therefore that we thinke that it is not lawfull to laugh but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches and of the ruines of ours with the heauie iudgements of the Lord which hang ouer vs ought to turne our laughing into weeping besides that a man may laugh although he shew not his teeth And so Ierome Ierome ad Marcell ▪ in effect answereth in an epistle which he wrote where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation that M. Doctor doth he saith bycause we do not laugh with open mouth therefore we are counted sadde And where he saith we separate our selues from all congregations and are ennimies to prince and that we would seeme to be holyer thā other these and such like slaunders are answered before And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers or spit in any mans face or wish the plague of God to light vpon them or say that they be damned we defend not nor allow of any such behauioure And it is vnreasonable that the fault of one should be imputed to so many and to those which do as much mislike of it as M. Doctor himselfe And what needed M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands where do they in a worde offer to strike Belike hys tongue is his owne and therefore he speaketh whatsoeuer he listeth Io. Whitgifte I shewe how much more aptely the qualities and conditions of the Phariseys agrée to you and to your sect than they can doe to suche as the authors of those pamplets call phariseys I know you can both laugh iest and give when you are among your selues and so coulde the Phariseys doo but I speake of youre behauior in open places and before suche as do not so well know you It is vnlyke that you mourne for the ruines or calamities of any Churches séeing that you séeke with might and mayne the confusion of this by stirring vp schismes and contentions in it That which I speake of separating your selues from the congregation c. is well knowne to be true in a number of you and the contemptuous behauiour of some of you pretending moste zeale towardes some of vs argueth what spirite you are of and what your
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
any learned man but onely of certaine heretikes and especially Anabaptists To be short I haue not answered the booke by peeces but wholy Howbeit I must desyre them to pardon me for not making more speede with my answere their friuolous quotations so troubled me and my other businesse that I could no sooner make an ende of it In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet there is nothing of any moment Augustine recor ed vpon the abu tsary worth the answering Therefore as they alledge this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur If they shoulde be feared and not taught it might seme a vvicked gouernance so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence Si docerentur non terrerentur vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius mouerentur If they should be taught and not feared in time they vvoulde vvaxestubburne and bethe hardlier moued to imbracethe vvay of saluation T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. vlt. I know not whether they haue bene conferred with or no but I thinke the first reason which they had to perswade them was that they should go to Newgate ▪ which is that which the Exhortation cō layneth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learne or euer he go to prison Io. Whitgifte If they were so sent to that place it was a méete reward for such disorderly dealing for ignorance may not excuse Libellers if they libell but against a priuate man much lesse shoulde it excuse them slaundering in that maner this whole Church and realme I doubt not but that I shall learne to know my selfe to do mydutie whilest I am out of prison so that I shall not iustly for lacke of dutie and honestie deserue it T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures in most places where they are sayde to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the r quest of the Exhortation which is to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures and how truly ptly and learnedly M. Doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the old Councels and fathers I leaue it to be esteemed partly of that which I haue sayde and partly by the deeper consideration of those which bycause they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is that I haue bicause I would not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with a light foote the heades and summes of things than to number the faults which are almost as many as there are sentences in this booke more I am sure than there are pages Io. Whitgifte I haue confuted both them and you according to the giftes and grace that God hath gyuen mée with suche authorityes both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours as is fitte to be vsed in the decyding of suche controuersies And I am well assured that you haue not omitted the least blot in my booke and for the most part you haue feyned agaynst your owne knowledge those to be whiche are not I refuse no mans iudgement of my dealing with the olde Councels and fathers that is learned and will speake without affection what he thinketh Your hyperbolicall conclusion or figure of lying where with you close vp your booke I am well vsed vnto and therefore it doth nothing trouble me but remayneth as a certaine note of the spirite that possesseth you which is the spirite of vntruth THus haue I according to that talent that God hath committed vnto me endeuoured my selfe to defende the state of this Church of England and the orders and rites therein by publyke authoritie established agaynst the slaunderous libelles of certaine vnquiet persons and this vncharitable replie of T. C. If eyther I haue omitted any thing that might haue béene vttered as I haue omitted many things or not so fully answered euery poynt that all men thereby may be satisfied namely such as will be satisfied with reason I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfill my want The which I do desire them most heartily to do euen for the loue that they haue to the peace of the Church not to suffer so common and weightie a cause to rest onely vpon one mans shoulder so farre inferiour to so many of them in all respects The contrarie part ceasse not to lay theyr heades togither and to make it all theyr cases which would more euidently appeare if their might were according to their will Therefore séeing that we like and allowe of the state let vs not suffer it to be defaced vniustly and without either learning or truth And if it shall please the contrarie part to answere this my defense then do I require no other thing of them than the selfe same which the Author of the Replie hath required of me and the which I haue accordingly performed that is that they set downe my wordes and answere me wholy which vnlesse they do they shal not onely with all wise men greatly dis redite themselues and shewe the lacke of truth to be on their side but also ease me of some paynes for I purpose not to answere Pamphlets nor to spend the time in confuting friuolous Libels The Lorde graunt that my labours may worke that effect that I desire that is peace in the Church and true obedience in the heartes of the Subiects Amen ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replie touching matters in controuersie T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgemēt of the later writers concerning these matters in controuersie betwene vs. VVherin bicause I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make mine to grow I haue kept this moderation that I neither set downe all the writers nor all their places that I coulde nor yet of euery singular matter But the chiefest writers and either of the chiefest points or else of those wherein they are alledged against vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eache as farre as I coulde iudge and chose out most directe to that wherefore I haue alledged it For otherwise if I would haue spoken of all the pointes and of the iudgement of all the writers and gathered all the places that I coulde they would haue ben sufficient matter of an other boke as bigge or rather bigger than this I must also admonishe the Reader that I haue forborne in certeine of these titles to sette downe the iudgements of M Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter bycause they
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the
churche is an ordinarie function in a Churche lawefully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship Io. Whitgifte In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie prouiding for the poore to Deacons that they must by them be prouided for and by no other hée onely sheweth what was done in this case in the Apostles tyme and in the tymes immediatly following but there is neyther Scripture nor any learned wryter that teacheth that the poore may be by no other prouided for than by Deacons You proue that which no man denieth and speake not one worde of the matter in question that is whether of necessitie the poore must be prouided for by Deacons and not otherwyse T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. to the Romaynes speaking of the Elders whiche did assiste the Pastor in euery Churche and of the Deacons lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Churche that the names of these functions do scarce remayne Io. Whitgifte That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before wrytten touching the publike ministers of the Churche and therfore you doe vniustly restrayne it only to Elders and Deacons It maye euidentlye appeare that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the gouerranent of the Churche of Christe in the Apostles tyme the gouernment of the Popes Church in his tyme as his wordes following declare for thus he addeth immediatly In steade of these they haue brought in Taperbearers Acoluthes and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures serue at their superstitious altar So that you can not gather of this place that your Seigniorie is perpetuall and must of necessitie for euer remayne in the Churche T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kyngdome of Christ for the auncients of the Churche sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chapter of the same booke sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Churche vntill it was dryuen out by Antichriste Io. Whitgifte It had bene well to haue noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer howebeit the matter is not great for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the number of the people or no in such places where this kynde of gouernment is admitted but whether this kynde of gouernment muste of necessitie in all Churches and at all tymes be put in practise I doe not remember that M. Bu er any where affirmeth that In déede in the fifth chapter of the firste booke speakyng of these Seniors he sayeth Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere c. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christe with the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes c. He sayeth they may doe it not that they ought to do it That whiche M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter is not denied but hee nowhere sayeth that the poore muste of necessitie hée prouided for by Deacons and by none other and hée teacheth in the same chapter that mo things apperteyned to the office of the Deacon than to prouide for the poore as namely to assiste the ministers in the administration of the Sacramentes and exercising of discipline What sufficient proofes these bée to induce that necessitie of the kynde of gouernment so greatly vrged by you let the learned Reader iudge T. C. 5 That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Churche M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke and 11. Chapter and. 6. Section teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man and that it was to wicked a facte that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to hymselfe alone opened a waye to tyrannie tooke from the Churche hir right and abrogated the Church Senate ordeined by the spirite of Christe And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section he sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Churche Io. Whitgifte Wée graunte that no one man ought to take that vnto hym selfe which doth not apperteyne vnto him but I haue proued Tract 18. that excommunication perteineth to Byshops and that this Church of England hath consented there vnto wherefore M. Ca uine speaketh against that excommunication whiche the Pope violently and tyrannically vsurpeth and not against this whiche our Bishoppes in this Churche of Englande both by the lawes of God and consent of the Churche exercise I speake of the thing it selfe and not of the abuse T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter 43. Section sayeth that this power of excommunicating is giuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinthes and fifth chapter sayeth that it is very daungerous to permitte so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and wil of any one man And therefore both that tyrannie might be auoyded and this censure execeuted with greater fruite and grauitie that the order whiche the Apostles there vseth is still to be obserued Io. Whitgifte To M. Beza and M. Martyr I answere as I dyd to M. Caluine and yet M. Martyr séemeth to expounde hym selfe in the same place where hée speakyng against the committing of this authoritie of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop and refelling this saying of the Papistes Episcopum esse totam ecclesiā virtualiter when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter as he there affirmeth he addeth by and by de malis haec intelligas tyrannicè agentibus Vnderstande this of euill Dishops and such as deale tyrannically whereby he declareth that he speaketh agaynst the committing of this discipline to euill Bishops and such as vse it tyrannically T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9. chapter sayth that Saint Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole Church did not cast out of their companie the incestuous person Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the whole Church may haue to doe in excommunication or no but whither the consent therof is al tymes therein to be required What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth I haue declared Tract 15. T. C. 6 That Chauncellours Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authoritie in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they handle matters whiche perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction Io. Whitgifie M. Caluin in that place alledgeth no reasons at al against those offices only he sayth that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except
it be vpon occasion of sicknesse c as I haue before declared he woulde haue all or the moste parte that be present to communicate and who defendeth the contrarie and yet if they will not the rest may not be secluded his whole drift is to reproue such as will not communicate and not to prohibite the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing be they moe or be they fewer so that there be a competent number that it may be a Communion T. C. M. Beza against VVestphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be ministred but in the Church and that at standing houres and by the ministers and further that vpō no necessitie as it is called it ought to be ministred in priuate houses And that if it might be ministred in priuate houses yet not otherwise than by Ministers Io. Whitgifte You vntruely report M. Beza his wordes he onely sheweth in that place what the order of the Church is where he remaineth he doth not prescribe any certaine rule for all Churches neyther is it méete that he shoulde in such cases He so speaketh of baptizing in priuate houses that he doth not simplie condemne it But what soeuer his iudgement is in that poynt his mynd is not I am sure to bynde all other Churches to the same which thinke and teach as soundly of this Sacrament as he doth or can do though they agrée not with him in all circumstances T. C. M. Caluin in his Institutions 4. booke chapter 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by priuate men or by any women Io. Whitgifte Only ministers of the Church are y e ordinarie ministers of baptisme neither may any other chalenge that function vnto thēselues ordinarily but yet if vpon occasion a priuate person do baptise the baptisme is good and lawfull euen as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministred by Sephora As I haue proued Tract 9. cap. 5. T. C. ◠The iudgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparell whose secrete Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places following cited out of their works printed and published by themselues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to this purpose wherevnto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Mathewe saith that they say nothing which do alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged than the reformation of ceremonies thereby defending the reliques of Antichrist for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion And that as there is no agreement betweene Christe and Belial so those whiche are sincere Christians can abide nothing of Antichrist Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer sayth truely for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected neyther can sincere Christians abyde any thing of Antichriste as it is Antichristes but what is all this to the purpose is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of Englande from the whiche all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned and those that remaine purged from al opinion of Antichristianitie And that M. Bucer ment nothing lesse than the ceremonies nowe reteined in this Church of Englande as we vse them it maye euidently appeare by that whiche I haue alledged out of him Tract 7. cap. 5. the. 5. diuision and chap. 7. diuision 4. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 10. chap. of the second boke of the Kings saith that the Lutherans must take heede least whilest they cutte off many Popishe errors they followe Iehu by reteining also many Popish things For they defende still the reall presence in the bread of the Supper and Images and Vestiments c. and saith that religion must be wholly reformed to the quick Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr nameth the Popishe things which the Lutherans obserue to be the reall presence images all the Popish apparell which they vsed in their Masse for so doth he meane which this Church hath refused What his opinion is of this apparell that we reteine I haue declared tract 7. chap. 5. the. 4. diuision where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same God be thanked Religion is wholly reformed euen to the quicke in this Churche T. C. Bullinger in his Decades 5. Booke and ninth Sermon saythe that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the Supper and that although in tymes paste the Ministers put on a kynde of cloake vpon their common apparell yet that was done neyther by the example of Chryste nor of his Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the Priestes apparell in the olde lawe it was caste vpon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper But sayth hee we haue learned long agoe not onely that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to be brought agayne into the Churche of no man And therfore seeing we are in the light of the Gospell and not vnder the shadowe of the lawe we do worthily reiecte that Massing Leuiticall apparell Io. Whitgifte Neyther do we reteine the massing Leuiticall apparell but that apparell onely which Bullinger himselfe alloweth of in diuers Epistles written of purpose touching these matters as I haue expressed Tract 7. Chapter 5. the. 6. Diuision c. T. C. Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth this for one reason to improue Paules shauing of his head for that the Gospel had beene preached twentie yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue bene borne with And after he saith that that teacheth howe muche the superstitious Maisters of ceremonies hurte the Gospell which nourishe the weaknesse of fayth by the long keping of ceremonies and by their long bearing hinder the doings of those ministers which are more feruent Io. Whitgifte M. Gualter in these wordes sayth nothing against any poynt of this Churche he speaketh truely and nothing to your purpose M. Gualter hath sufficiently shewed his opinion in these matters not onely in written Epistles but in printed bookes as in his Epistle before his commentaries vpō the first to the Corinthians Surely there is no suche weight in these authorities for your purpose that you can take any great aduauntage of them indéede your cause in my opinion hath won small credite by alledging of them ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman for Humfrey Toy dvvelling in Paules Churchyard at the signe of the Helmet ANNO. 1574.