established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
crowne and for a contumacious and rebellious person that maketh question whether hee ought to obey such lawes as her Maiestie and the whole parliament and wisest men of England haue thought to bee godly and conuenient and lastly in what case the Putcase and his fellowes are that in broade speeches openly and in printed bookes directly oppugne them and by calumnious questions pinch at them 2 Quaere whether those that woulde ouerthrowe not onely the priuiledges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole ecclesiasticall state their iurisdiction and liuings seeke not the ouerthrowe of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of this Realiue and seeke the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her handes things that tende to the violating of her oathe taken at the time of her coronation and the ouerthrowe of the rewardes of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to bee suffered to proce do in their presumption 3 And because the Putcase maketh mention of that reuerende Iudge Sir Christopher Wray late lorde chiefe Iustice of England let him also answere whether hee did nor both in his opinion as a iudge and in bitter reâ—mes as a man in vtter dislike of these mens obstinacie coudemne those that obstinately refused before ecclesiastical iudges to take their othes or to declare being examined mattens concerning themselues or others so farre as then concerned had life or member and whether the reuerend learned iudge and lawyers of England haue not resolued the proceedings of ecclestasticall courts to be lawfull and disallowed the notorious contumacie of those men that refused notwithstanding vpon their owne vaine conceipts to answere 4. Quaere whether the booke of Fenner that is intituled sacra Theologia and came forth with the Pythagoricall allowance of T. C. conteine not strange diuinitie and whether it be likely that the resolutions of the consistorie shoulde bemore learned then the positions of two such omniscient diuines 5 Quaere whether it bee not reason to make T.C. recant those dangerous opinions he hath published in that booke and whether those that made the newe communion booke are not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions offaith and new doctrine 6 Let also great inquiry be made by what law or title the churchaldermen do clayme so large authority both in ecclesiasticall and domesticall matters as lately they haue taken vpon them in some churches k Quaere what is become of the actes and memorials of the consistorie that is supposed to haue beene both in the Church of God vnder the lawe and vnder the Gospell and what may bee the reason that so famous men should neither haue their names nor doings mentioned in any historie holy or prophane or other writing Quaere whether such as suffer their children to die without baptisme because the time of the assembly of the congregation commeth not betweene their birth and death are not guilty of contempt of baptisme and whether they that teach this doctrine bee found christians that rather then they will breake a consistorial rule will suffer christians children to depart without the badge and marke of christianitie 9 Quaere whether they that cal those scriptures which are commonly called Apocryphall lyes and fables doe therein declare themselues to haue the iudgement of learned men or modestie of ciuill persons seeing the fathers of olde time and diuers learned men of our times also doe honor them next after the Canonicall scriptures 1 Zanch. confess and whether T.C. would not take it in euill part to haue his voluminous replies called lyes and fables which notwithstanding are farre inferior to the worst part of the Apocryphal scriptures 10 Quaere whether the consistoriall constitutions doe not bring into vse the iudiciall lawes of Moses as for example that of retaliation of capitall punishments of adulterie and blasphemie and whether felonies that were by Moses lawe punished ciuilly may not be punished with death and whether that the Consistoriall faction doeth not deny her Maiestie power to pardon offenders that by Moses iudiciall lawes are to be punished with death 11 Quaere how it happeneth that the disciplinarians shame not to speake against Bishops which themselues deny not to haue bene euer in the Church since the Apostles times and which we offer to proue to haue authoritie by the word of God seeing they commend a fond and new found gouernement that hath neither authoritie of lawe nor confirmation by ancient practise the lawes whereof are most absurde and vnreasonable 12 Quaere by what authoritie they interpre the wordes Dic Ecclesiae and presbyteriqui bene praesunt c. and the wordes of the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 Ephes 4.10 Rom. 12. contratrarie to all the ancient fathers to histories to themselues yea contrarie to the text it selfe and common reason 13. Quaere why Ministersshould not be forced as well to subscribe to the gouernmeÌ„t of the church of England as the ministers of France to the French discipline they of Geneua to the ordinances of Geneua these being so lately inuented and established and hauing so notorious exceptions against them and being no way to be compared to the orders of our Church for authoritie antiquitie or other good condition or qualitie 14 Quaere whether the Consistorie decreeing and proceeding contrarie to the discipline of France and Geneua and their new Zion is to be allowed or obeyed and whether euery acte of the Consistorie be lawe to binde the rest of that congregation and if it be then what certeintie can be in that gouernement and whether that gouernement be not worse then papall seeing the Popes proceede according to their owne lawes these fellowes will not be bounde by any lawes either of their owne or others 15 Quaere if the Consistories sentence be the sentence of the Church whereunto euery one is to obey and he that obeyeth not to be holden as a heathen and publican how it chanceth that the Synode sometimes is so bolde as to reuerse the Consistories sentence and not to holde the disobedient as a publican and sinner 16 Quaere if by the wordes It shall not be so with you all power of ordination iudgement making and executing of orders deposing of ministers and such like authoritie be taken from Bishops by what reason the ministers of the new discipline in their new Consistories and Synodes take on them so peremptorily to put in and out and to make lawes and to determine most absolutely and imperiously 17 Quaere what time of the yeere and vnder what signe the resolutions of the Consistorie are most ripe viz. whether when the sunne entereth into Aries or Capricorne or in haruest time or midsommer moone and whether a madman that hath Lucida interualla as one of the authors of the petition hath bee a sound man to make a piller of the Consistorie and what order is to be taken
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
must be ruinated and al lawes abolished that the confusion of the Consistorie barbarisme of this new discipline may triumph ouer the church In France and Scotland they want much of that discipline they desire nay the Ministers want meanes pore men to mainteine thēselues and their families yea the Church wanteth sufficient and learned ministers and is glad to vse the ministerie of boyes and vnlearned youthes wanting all thinges saue boldnes yet they will not say that for these disorders or want of their desires it is reason that the ministerie and their aldermen should be changed and all ouerthrowen The 2 1. Eliz. 2. Statutes giue power to her Maiestie and her ecclesiasticall commissioners to appoint orders for the ornaments of the Church doth it therefore follow that surplesses and other ceremonies are to be abolished By like reason a man may couclude that all lawes are entended to be taken away because the prince and parliament haue authoritie so to doe a reason well beseeming such sencelesse felowes as vnderstand no reason for nether is the consequent good a posse adesse nor if the conclusion were granted would this man obtaine his desire concerning his consistorial discipline for albeit alteration be made in the ministers apparel yet may the same be made the state standing and the consistorie falling to dust so that if he looke for no other alteration then that which is entended by our lawes he his consistorie may goe and consider vpon some better reasons In the meane while hee saith that some of our chiefe defendors of religion against the papists confesse That diuers abuses in ceremonies and discipline were tollerated among vs the church yeelding to the infirmitie of the weake which were to be altered when people grewe to riper knowledge Wherein as in other things he dealeth falsely for neither is it true that 1 Fulke retent pag. 98. Doctor Fulke saith That our ceremonies or discipline is to be altered nor is he though a most learned man one of our chiefe defendors But suppose it were granted that he then thought that some alteration in ceremonies and discipline were to be admitted doth it therefore followe that the church must be spoyled bishops and ecclesiastical persons put frō their charges and a sort of hungrie cormorants brought into gouernement againe suppose this one man in his youth were of some strange conceite cōcerning the euerlasting blessed consistorie yet doth not one make a number where then be the rest forsooth in the intention of the libeller that is now hatching of newe heresies Can. 20. and fooleries But saith hee the bishops confesse in their canons that non residencie is a filthie thing and diuers confesse that lay men should not meddle with excommunication and that diuers lewde and vnlearned Ministers haue entered into the Church which were it supposed to be true yet addeth nothing to the cause of the consistorie for we deny not that men be men that there be faults in the execution of lawes therefore such as offend are to be punished not as this discrasied disputor would cōclude al lawes to be abolished a new gouernmēt to be erected in the law we denie that there is eyther impietie or abuse in men we doe not deny nay wee wish that such as giue scandale were remoued that by their defaults the commō cause might not be hurt if the consistorial faction could cleare themseluelues of impietie abuse in their gouernmēt it would be better for thē but they must thinke that there are faultes among them aswel as among others that they are no angels but men yea and many very odde men and men made of very strange humors Master D. Cosin confesseth that the punishment of adulterie is too milde and others be of his opinion for we do not say that euery point of lawe is so perfect or that things can be so stable that there can be nothing added or detracted if they should say so of their consistorie as some men douteth not they should but make a great leasing as is euident by the particulers of their gouernment what then will the libeller conclude of this our opinion doth he thinke that his consistorial discipline must come in place if he do he is abused for the imperfections impieties iniustice thereof is to to notorious That in the consecratiō of bishops the pastoral staffe laying on of the bible is cōmanded by law to be vsed is one of the libellers lewd vntrueths for no such thing is foūd in the booke of ordeining of ministers neither doth any other lawe commande any such matter but suppose it were cōmanded the same were omitted were it reason as this libeller auoweth because the archbishop vnto whose discretion many things are referred by lawe omitteth some ceremonie that therefore euery contentious companion should breake all orders let this be put among the cōclusiōs of discipline or rather disorder for such in deed is this discipline a scholler would rather haue cōcluded that he ought to be forced to obserue law thē that others because he breaketh law in one point should take occasion to breake law in all to cōclude his vnsauery tale against the ecclesiastical gouernment he saith that a 1 Aduertisement to the Church of England c. lerned man friend to the bishops noteth as abuses their vrging of subscriptiō their othes ex officio their excōmunicatiō for trifles and easie silencing of ministers wherein he saith not amisse concerning the gentlemans learning for in deed he is both graue learned now vnderstandeth and hath learned that neither in subscription nor examination of parties vpon their othes ecclesiasticall iudges doe any thing against either lawes of God or men or reason nor that any is excommunicate for trifles or minister silenced but for good cause and by his owne default nor that subscription is a new deuise being vsed in most ancient counsels and with great rigour exacted at Geneua and in all France which I would also haue the libeller to learne and also to speake the trueth and to deale honestly for no man is excommunicate in ecclesiastical courts but for 1 Quo minor culpa co maior contumacia Beza aduers Erast contumacie neither is any put to silence but such as shew themselues rebellious but what if some abuse were would not reason require that the abuse should rather be taken away then that there should be made a dangerous innouation in state these things considered I referre to euery mans iudgement what maner of disputor this felow is that either speaketh no trueth or els alledgeth such matters as make not to the purpose that the fathers or counsels yea or late writers of name speake against such Bishops as we haue is vntrue that some malcontents haue declaymed against the state is not denied that there are abuses in execution of lawe therefore our lawes to be abolished and the consistorie to be
wee must tell him that where hee talketh of fiue hundred traytors that maintaine the present ecclesiasticall gouernement hee is out of reason and account and doeth nothing but rayle as well beseemeth his libelling humour The state and iurisdiction of bishops nowe in England dependeth externally on the Prince to him they are subiect and from him they receiue lawe finally they thinke it vnlawfull to rebell against him condemning all rebellious practises to pull downe his authoritie and to bring them vnder but the proud and insolent Consistory claymeth power aboue princes and rendreth in Ecclesiasticall matters account to none but God as they professe the same acknowledgeth it felse subiect to none and prescribeth lawes to Princes yea teacheth and putteth in practise rebellion against them and therefore when there is speach of loyaltie and obedience let the Libeller henceforth take heede how he compareth the most factious and suspicious gouernment to Princes that euer was to our ecclesiasticall gouernours which in their doctrine and life cannot bee noted of any disloyaltie And finally let him holde his peace and thanke God for the princes clemencie For it is not the innocencie of his Clients nor the eloquence of the aduocate that can cleare the disciplinarians from faction In such bad causes repentance and submission is best defence the next is silence And therefore wisely did he passe ouer that offence for which Iohn Vdall was conuicted and condemned Onely this fault hee committeth herein that forgetting howe before hee had promised to answere for him now hee leaueth him to answere for himselfe and like a man that had lost both memorie and wit runneth out into an idle discourse of othes Ex Officio and an inuectiue against Iudges and furiously rayling at the State calleth such as speake in defence of it Traitors and Rebels To terrifie the Iudges hee cyteth certaine Textes of scriptures ill fitting his purpose For neither as hee sayeth are his consortes Saintes nor doe they suffer for holinesse nor are they put to death howsoeuer they deserue it That sentence of 1 Iames 1. Iames rather belongeth to them If any man deemeth himselfe to be religious and refaineth not his tongue but seduceth his hart his religion is in vayne or that rather Woe bee to 2 Matth. 23. you Scribes and Pharises ye hypocrites yee are like to whited sepulchres faire without and within full of bones of dead men and all filthinesse And albeit Iohn Vdall had the name vnwothy to be a Preacher yet neuer any worse deserued it being euery way vnsufficient nor tooke a more factious course This fellowe braggeth hee was no murtherer yet if hee had proceeded further I knowe what woulde haue followed So arrogant hee is that hee imagineth all fooles but such as like his fancies But if the 3 Pag. 49. Iudges haue so little skill in condemning such a Minister as Iohn Vdall why doth not this great Clarke shewe it this is impudencie to condemne such reuerend learned men of ignorance and to shewe no reason Besides this in lawe there ought to be no respect of persons Howe then can there bee such difference betwixt ministers and others if ministers offend as well as others Either this man meaneth to challenge immunitie or els hee meaneth if euer he bee a Iudge to respect persons Some haue painted Iustice blinde but this man woulde haue them iudge with spectacles His accusation against such as speake in defence of the state will neuer be prooued he racketh and teareth their sayings as a man lying without conscience and shame yet will they not reach to his purpose Concerning master Dalton whom he accuseth as the Bishops factor it is an easie matter to answere hee hath more honestie learning and lawe then is to be found in all the Puritanes distempered braynes The cause he defended was not the Bishops but of religion learning and the Church Hee chargeth the Bishops that they write in a certaine 1 Admon a g. M. M. p. 252. booke that it is not lawfull to bestowe such liuings vpon laye men as are appoynted by lawe to preachers of the word But neither doe the Bishops say it nor is that booke that is quoted the Bishops nor is it likely that so graue men had so litle to doe as to busie themselues with the answering of such a vaine Libell as Martin and Martins barking sonnes But whose-soeuer the saying is it is iustifiable for if the liuings bee appoynted by lawe to preachers what law is it to infringe law that the Queene doeth keepe the temporalties of Bishops in her hands during the vacation is by law not against law So likewise it is lawfull to holde some Ecclesiasticall liuings that be appropried As for Wiclefs words against the excesse of his times they are euill extended against the want of ours and are voyde of reason for what reason is it that for the default of one a succession should be spoyled as he would haue it But sayth hee who woulde not thinke the superfluities of Bishops liuing better bestowed vpon such a man as Sir Francis Walsingham that right honourable Chancellour and benefactor of the Church and Countrey then vpon any Bishop Wherein hee doeth wrong to the memory of that good knight and in needelesse discourse bringeth his name in question To his supposall I answere that there be very wise men that thinke the liuings of Bishops better as they are and I thinke hee would so say if hee were aliue and were asked the question for no man was more desirous then hee of true honor neyther is any thing more dishonourable then to rise by the spoyles of the Church that hee pretendeth to loue nor to take that to him selfe which was giuen to other vses Neyther doe wee reade of any that hath risen by the spoyles of the Church that hath long prospered or enioyed them nor haue the Papistes any thing to obiect against vs more then sacriledge and spoyle of the Church As for the superfluities of bishops there is order taken Take foure of the best bishops in England and there will bee found eight knights euery one whereof shall farre ouermatch them in reuenues Take eight bishops next in liuing to the greatest and there will bee found two hundreth esquires euery of which shall ouerpasse them diuers yeomen clownes and marchantes doe farre excell the rest Why then should any enuie to men of learning and qualitie the estate and liuing of knights esquires yeomen and clownes It will bee sayde these haue it by inheritance but why should it not as well be lawfull to haue it and winne it by industrie as by inheritance But I am glad I know why all this while the petitioner barketh so loude Hee woulde haue great men fall to spoyling that hee might light vpon some reuersion or like a dogge gather vp crummes vnder the table when men shall ryot with Churches rapines well for his good will when churches come to be spoyled let him out
the state nor are the women he frequēteth so honest as Rahab nor is it a seemely matter for such a braue challenger to make a brag so to run away nor decency for him that preferreth a supplication to the Queene that kneeleth before her Maiestie to hide himselfe his name nor can it stand together that a man should kneele before her Maiestie and yet conceale his name and person He promiseth when his apparance shall be found more profitable then his concealement that he wil come forth and try himselfe a proper man but he had best come forth in time lest if as he saith he be in concealement some one or other begge him of the Queene for to her belong both concealements and the custodie of Ideots He braggeth that he williustifie his wordes in such maner and forme as he hath written them but goodman he neither vnderstandeth what he hath written nor hath furniture nor stuffe in him for so hard an encounter for hee holdeth more of Luna then Mars and is rather lunaticall then martiall It is not long since his Bedlem fits left him Of Logicke he hath no taste nor yet of Diuinitie why then should he like a desperate sotte or like a man without armes or order of warre venture into so dangerous a battell His good masters are quite fled out of the fielde and all their newe disciplinarian deuises are vanished away like cloudes and onely remaine in certaine idle mens braynes who may in time percase disgest them and therefore if this sentence nubecula est citò transibit please him let him write it vpon the doore of the consistory for like a cloude it hath bene lift vp and like a cloude it hath bene tossed with contrary opinions and like a cloude it is almost vanished away And thus much concerning the petition Now let vs consider his Articles and Questions not that they conteine any new matter for both his petition articles and interrogatories proceede from the same malice and tende to one ende and conteine the same odious accusations against the State but for that wee meane not to leaue vnto these men any shadow or pretence for their cause If the same things bee often repeated blame him that so often obiected the same not them that answere their calumnious and vayne obiections accusations are often odious defence of orders and lawes cannot but fauourably be esteemed WHEREIN IS CONTEINED AN ANSWERE TO CERTAINE Articles and Questions annexed to the foresayd Petition wherein the Libeller hath spread diuers slaunders against Ecclesiasticall gouernours and their proceedings The Title to the Articles CErtaine Articles wherein is discouered the negligence of the Bishops their Officials Fauourers and Followers in perfourmance of sundry Ecclesiasticall Statutes Lawes and Ordinances royall and Episcopall published for the gouernement of the Church of England Answere THE Libellers purpose was in pretence onely to defend but I perceiue albeit beside his purpose now he meaneth to strike and offend and that in treason and in the darke when no man can strike him againe A common tricke of Libellers that deuise what reproche they can against such as they hate and publish them then renounce them So this fellowe goeth about to bring bishops in disgrace then all those Ministers that liue in obedience of Lawes But he meaneth not to stand to the matter for he concealeth his name Well let vs see what he saith against Bishops and other Ministers and ecclesiasticall persons Much it should seeme he cannot say for he is ignorant what are Ecclesiasticall lawes and by what autthoritie they stand and calleth them Ordinances royall and Episcopall when it is euident that there is no lawe in England but Royall and that no bishop may make any ordinance or Lawe Article 1 By the statute 25. H. 8.14 it is accompted by the Parliament against equitie due order of iustice to bring any man in danger of his life name goods or landes by any intrapping Interrogatories without verdict witnes presentment or confession c. for making printing or dispersing of seditious bookes sundry other grieuous crimes c. Answere Neither is the statute truely reported nor is it proued that the bishops or their officers proceed cōtrary vnto it or other lawe concerning that poynt as this false accuser pretendeth For the first it is euident for that which the statute decreeth cōcerning heresie this accuser trāsferreth to printing writing seditious bookes as if it were to be presumed that as innocents by that statute were deliuered from trappes of heresie so such seditious offenders libellers were protected by law against law whereas there is no mētion nor intendment of any such matter in that statute The second appeareth for that the Accuser doth not once charge the high commissioners at which he aymeth with breach of this statute He knew very wel v t there is nothing in their proceedings contrary to this statute For they do not as this libeller surmiseth minister captious interrogatories Secondly they do proceed to punishment against none but conuicted by lawful witnesses euidence or confession neither otherwise then by warrant of their commission which I would gladly see the libeller whether he dare to oppugne That which is set in the side Of oath ex officio perteineth not to this matter for in this statute there is no word cōcerning any oth And therfore he that put the same there did like him stroke a faire blow but touched not his aduersary Article 2 All men are baylable that are not prohibited by law to be bayled 2. West c. 15. Answere These words are not found in the place quoted nor any of such nature no nor in any other place Percase the Libeller meaneth as wel to forge new lawes as new religion If he meaneth the statute made at West 1. Ed. 3. c. 15. yet is there no such matter for there we find rather who are not to be bailed then who are to be bayled which is to be gathered out of the statutes common lawes against which if he wil charge the honourable persons of the high commission to haue proceeded why doth he not note the fact and time other circumstances If hee thinke that either those that are taken by the writ de excommunicato capiendo or such as are committed by the high cōmissioners ecclesiastical for contempts are bayleable he neither vnderstandeth law nor statute for law auctoriseth both And if it should not then would penalties be frustratory and offenders be rather protected by law then by lawe punished Article 3 No officiall nor other officer should take any more thē three pence for the seale of a Citation els they forfeit double costes c. Answere Why doe you not sue them vpon the statute if they take more you might make a goodly gaine in promoting of matters against them but you will not your proofes are so sclender That Officials others do take more then they ought for seales of processes I
curiously enquire if they were not too curious they woulde no more meddle with vs then wee doe with them At least they would remember that all Churches are equall if they say true As for the learned men that are named and others they may speake what they please of Popish apparell it concerneth vs nothing But that they haue condemned the apparell of ministers nowe vsed in Englande it cannot bee shewed of the most learned Nay the opinions of Bullinger Bucer Gualter and others are to bee shewed to the contrary Of the rest the authoritie is not so great as may weigh downe the orders of our Church without reason Finally what is seemely what not neyther Beza nor his followers are any iudges in matters concerning our Church In this Church this apparell is thought decent and therefore let the newfangled Disciplinarians weare their Flat-caps and Russet clokes and goe disguized like good fellowes that come from the Cart or from the market and so content themselues Why wee should refuse our ancient orders or followe them in their newe fooleries as yet wee see no reason Quaere if Maiors Bailiffes Stage players and others Put-case Quest 5. may not as well be forced to subscribe to the Bishops three Articles by the statute of 1. Elizab. c. 1. as Ministers seeing the Statute vrged by Doctor Bridges to that purpose doeth reache to them as well as Ministers This is a Question put to disgrace subscription Answere by a man that neyther alloweth the Queenes supremacie nor Cōmunion booke nor Articles of religion And therefore he iumbleth bishops maiors stageplayers together setting forth his follie as it were on a stage for which if he had his desert he would be brought to play a part on another kind of stage Why ministers not these should subscribe the reason is for that they teach others must be knowen to be sound of religion the others teache not And the same is confirmed by diuers lawes and practise of all Churches neyther doeth Doctor Bridges giue the least occasion for him to ground his doubt vpon him Surely a Stageplayer may easily shewe more wit and modestie then this pild Put-case Quaere Put-case Quest 6. whether Bishops vpon occasion prescribing certain prayers to be said besides the prayers in the Communion booke doe not offend against their owne Articles and the Statute of publike Prayer and ought not therefore to deale more mercifully with their brethren offending in like qualitie A profound question Answere yet of no man asked but of those that sinne of malice for who knoweth not that the statute of publike prayer prouideth against the malicious contemners of the Communion booke such as the Papists Puritans are who thinke they can conceiue extemporall prayers farre passing the reach of that booke and bring in newe Liturgies and not against such as allowe that booke defende it and vse it and onely adde some Prayers according to the diuersitie of occasions and tymes being also authorized thereto by her Maiestie and doing the same according to Lawe But this wicked fellowe is loath that any shoulde pray for the Queene or against the Spaniardes els would hee not condemne it Put-case Quest 7. Whether are not the Questions and Answeres at the baptizing of Infants in the Communion booke like to the questions of the Marcionites that baptized the quicke for the dead Chrysost in 1. Corinth 15. one answering from vnder the bed where the dead lay The last Interrogatorie was for the Communion booke Answere this is against it of so contrary pieces this worke is wrought But if the Put-case that framed this question meane to proue any thing he must shewe some better reason For there is not like reason in answering for Infantes for dead men Those are to bee baptized these not those haue sayth in habite these are passed Neyther is it strange if he that vndertaketh for the childes education doeth answere for it The Ceremonie is ancient and not lightly to bee esteemed vnlesse like to these newfangled Innouators wee meane to bidde warre to all Antiquitie and playnely with them to runne into manifolde new heresies Quaere whether with safe conscience Put-case Quest 8. a man may subscribe to the Communion booke that it conteineth nothing contrary to scriptures seeing the translation of the Psalmes differeth from the trueth of the Hebrewe in 200 places or more It is out of question Answere that the Consistorian faction denyeth not to subscribe to that booke because of the faults in the translation of Psalmes but for other matters which they would hide vnder this goodly glosse for by the like reason they might denie to subscribe to the Bible seeing the Geneuian Bible doth differ much from the originall text yet they vse and imbrace it and haue none other diuinitie then the Geneuian phrase Further I say that it is not the meaning of those that require subscription to confirme eyther errours of translation or of the print and therefore they doe but cauill without cause and obiect this without ground But suppose the intendment of subscription were strictly to tye men to the wordes of that booke whether they were well couched or not yet will it not fall out in reckoning that there are moe faultes in the translation of the Psalmes then in the Geneuian Bible Whether there bee or no this Put-case cannot tell for hee vnderstandeth not the tongue neither shall his companions euer bee able to iustifie either two hundred or one fault contrary to the analogie of faith Quaere whether it be agreeable to Gods worde or lawe Put-case Quest 9. to punish Libellers with returne of Libels Ribauldry c. and whether Martin offending in Libelling they offend not that made the Almond for Parrat Martins moneths minde c. Whatsoeuer those did that answered Martins ribauldry-bookes Answere they did it of their owne heads without either knowledge or allowance of their superiors and therefore let them answere themselues and I doubt not but they will answere reason for it is nothing so great a fault to answere as to make challenge And further they will say their bookes be very honest and ciuil in respect of Martins Atheistical Libels For he rayleth against lawes against gouernours and against men in authoritie they reuell onely against Martin and his barking curres and according to their reache doe speake for the lawes Hee wickedly sporteth with religion and matters of State these only play with Martins dizardry and his dizardlike companions If this Questioner reply and aske why are they not called in it may be answered that if he wil make himselfe party shew any thing in them against religion or law they wil be called in yea some of them haue bene called in and others of a more biting stile and nature haue bene stayed If he can shew no such thing it will be thought that this kind of vaine cōsidering the intolerable pride
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
and which he hath set downe in malitious Articles and interrogatories shall be answered neither doe I meane therein to omit any speach that shall seeme any way pertinent to purpose being loth he should say he was not answered Wherein if you see no colour or shew of reason for this newfound platformes or proofe of his accusation consider then I pray you first what indignitie hath ben offered by this libellor to the Church of God to her Maiestie and her lawes to the Ecclesiasticall state and such as liue in obedience of lawes and secondly what they deserue that haue offered this indignitie vnto so many and honorable persons and brought this scandale into the Church of God the common 1 Rescius iâ— ministromach aduersarie maketh profite of those shameles slaunders which those vnciuil and vnlettered authors of the Admonition haue vttered against the Church the aduersarie triumpheth to see this contention disordered companions take occasion of contumacie and rebellion when will the gouernors vse like diligence to represse them If then you loue religion her Maiestie and the state you will not suffer such notorious reuellors at lawes and gouernors if you be desirous of trueth you will no more be abused with vaine gloses H. Nicholas hath painted his booke with quotations as full as T.C. he vseth the same stile and seemeth to haue the same erronious spirit He saith as well as T.C. that for Sions sake 2 In euangel regni he will not holde his peace and yet nether of both speaketh to purpose nor to the edifying but rather the pulling downe of Gods Church and therefore seing both the authors and their dealings haue bene tried let them be both dealt with all and esteemed according to their deserts It may be these felowes looked for answere of her Maiestie and to say sooth the Magistrate were most fitte to shape aunsweres for such disordered petitions but in the meane while it may please them to accept of my answere they are no such high persons but meaner men then her Maiestie may answere them reason it is seing they put their petition in print they should also receiue a printed answere and seing they chalenge me they should heare my answere And let them not thinke but that howsoeuer their malice is repressed by lawe their fond assertions and cauils shal be refuted by reason That trueth may appeare I haue done my endeuour God is my witnesse I seeke for nothing but trueth and peace there rosteth then nothing but that trueth be embraced and lawe maintained for little auaileth it to knowe either if by faction mutinie lawes may be broken trueth oppressed to make trueth and Iustice knowen it belonged to vs to defend the same belongeth to Magistrates to wish the same to all reade therefore and iudge and seeke the maintenance of Iustice and trueth without which neither Church nor state can be well gouerned AN ANSWERE TO A CERtaine calumnious Petition and also to certaine Articles and Questions of the Consistorian faction CAP. I. Wherein is declared that the authoritie and state of Bishops as it is vsed in England is lawfull and the Petitioners cauils brought to the contrary answered ALmightie God when he gaue Magistrates and Lawes vnto his Church appoynted first and next vnder the soueraigne Magistrate one high Priest to haue the 1 Deut. 17. leuit 13. exod 28. nom 3. 4. superintendence of the affaires of the church and vnder him 2 1. Chron. 24. 25. diuers heads of their diuisions that things might be done in order And lest wee might suppose that this was but a ceremoniall constitution vnder the Law of nature the chieftie of the Priesthoode ouer all his was first in Noe then in Sem then in Abraham then in Isac and Iacob afterward in the 12 Patriarkes which for many yeres gouerned their whole families both in matters diuine and humane If equalitie of ministers had bene so profitable no doubt God would haue vsed that order in his Church The Lawe ceremoniall ceasing our Sauiour ruled his Church as soueraigne Bishop of our soules he adioyned no fellowe aldermen to himselfe Departing this worlde he gaue commission to his disciples within those places where they remayned to gouerne the church So we reade that they did excommunicate alone that they did ordeine ministers alone yea and did by superiour authoritie order both the affayres and goods of the church Paul did excommunicate 3 1. Timoth. 1. Alexander and Hymenaeus Peter as Beza confesseth by the swoorde of excommunication strooke Ananias and Saphyra alone Beza aduers Erast Paul ordeined Timothy and Titus and Timothy and Titus ordeined other ministers The Apostle Paul prescribeth orders and lawes to Timothy and Titus and their churches the populer gouernement which our platformers commend was not so much as in time of persecution vsed This was the practise of the Apostles successors likewise Saint Iohn writeth to the bishop of Ephesus to the bishop of Smyrna and likewise to the seuerall Bishoppes of other Churches to them hee giueth directions them he reprehendeth for bearing with the wicked which if they had had no authoritie aboue other Ministers had bene very vnfitting All Ecclesiasticall stories writing of that argument giue witnesse that seuerall Bishops succeeded the Apostles at Rome Constantinople Alexandria Ierusalem Antioche other famous Churches Saint Ierome and diuers other ancient writers testifie that Marke ruled Alexandria as Bishop which happened in Saint Iohns time All counsels giue preheminence to Bishops ouer other Ministers and to the counsels the fathers subscribe by infinite testimonies whereof it may appeare that excommunication ordination and the gouernement of the Church next vnder the prince did belong to Bishops the wordes I haue set downe heretofore in my English booke written against this counterfeite newe discipline Saint Ierome hath a most pregnant place for excommunication Ieronym aduers vigilant where hee wondereth that no one Bishop could bee found to excommunicate Vigilantius and if all the gouernement of the Church was committed to Bishops no doubt but that they disposed of these matters also When in our times religion began to be reformed the chiefe learned men that then liued and tooke paines therein In histor Apologia confess August protested in their publike writinges to the entent that all posteritie should knowe it that if Bishops would embrace religion they would most willingly submit themselues to their episcopall iurisdiction accompting in most godly and expedient for the Church Melancthon vseth many speeches to that purpose fearing that if the authoritie of bishops were reiected a greater tyranny would succede and Caluine likewise to Sadolete protesteth that he misliketh not Episcopal authoritie Neither can any thing bee deuised more absurd then that equalitie of ministers which is brought in to ouerthrow Bishoppes for no gouernement can be without superioritie neither can any thing bee well ordered where there is no speciall care in some one it
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
some did which inueighed against popish bishops and affirmeth that they woulde write so much against their father if hee were a bishop or non resident matters most absurde and false for neyther haue these leude and loose companions such a commission as had the Prophetes nor is the ecclesiasticall state to be compared with the idolatrous and wicked priests or popish bishops Neither haue the same followed the steps of Prophets or any propheticall persons Gods Prophetes they speake nothing but truth these are still telling vs prodigious and false tales of their consistorie and counterfeit discipline The Prophets neuer ray led against authority nor gouernors these raile against ecclesiastical ciuil gouernors and al that withstand thē the prophets shewed not thēselues vnnaturall to their parents these professe vnkindnes they did not assemble in seditious sort nor go about to make new lawes for the Church as these did They neuer by wicked conspiracy went about to establsh any newe fancies as did Wigginton Hacket Coppinger Cartw. Vdall and all that were acquainted with that action They neuer declaymed against others being most guilty thēselues as these fellowes do which being most negligent and loose in laboring most vnlearned and ignorant full of newe fooleries doe notwithstanding inueigh against others so bitterly that as this wise felow professeth they wil not spare their father no nor mother and why forsooth because they are of those which S. Paul speaketh of and telleth vs that they are without 1 2. Tim. 3.3 naturall affection This defence therefore is vnsufficient first for that it is false for they doe otherwise then they professe And secondly for that they confesse in this treatise at vnawares that they diffame her Maiesties gouernment affirming the same to be full of enormious corruptions and to haue in it reliques of Idolatrie and impietie and to mainteine a wicked and vnsufficient 2 The ministery of England is better without comparison then that of France Scotland or Dutchland ministerie imitating therein as vnderhand they insinuate the wicked kings of Israel and cruell tyrants that persecuted the Church And lastly for that hee auoucheth that in those times no man was accounted a diffamer of princes that spake against the ecclesiasticall lawes and state which cannot be prooued To iustifie his companions doings he telleth vs further a long discourse how they pray for her Maiesty how they pay subsidy how they fought for her Maiesty when the Spanyards were here And how some whom England shall remēber while it is England ventured as farre as any which is no more thē the papists professe nor thē Iewes Pagans do which yeeld al duties to princes fight when as the Puritanes plaied the cowards few shewed themselues for I knowe diuerse that being there sawe very fewe puritanes armed to mainteine this bragge But so deinty and nice they are that they exclame if they be not highly rewarded for euery litle dutie yea for fighting for themselues their countrey and plainely professe that without their desires for discipline they meane to withdrawe all duetie And therefore this is but a vaine bragge of praying preaching foure times a day and I knowe not what for their tumultuous praying and prating in those times did rather discourage then encourage any and was rather the beginning of tumult then any encouragement and hee that preached foure times a day had much idle talke and made many vnsauorie discourses But suppose some fewe of these men shewed themselues loyall and were so ventrous as to come to Tilberie or rayle against the Spanyardes yet others as it may well be surmised were framing supplications and prouiding horse and armes to come to present them al in armes Then did Martin frame his seditious libelles then others preached seditious sermons all tending to the weakning of those that willingly offred themselues in that seruice And Martin senior professeth that when the enemie was readie to assayle vs abroad there were a hundred thousand handes readie to subscribe the supplication of puritanes at home which saith he in good pollicie we being in feare of outward force might not bee denied nor discouraged Then which there can bee no greater argument of their disloyall proceedings Where they are charged with rayling against the princes gouernement they excuse it saying that therein they meant no more malice to her Maiestie then the godly prophets that vnder Ezekiah and Iosiah reprooued the abuses of the Church which is a point which must bee read with great patience for who can else endure to heare them compare themselues to the prophets their doings to the doing of the prophets the comparison being so vnlike Gods prophets were humble meeke peaceable and possessed with Gods spirit These are proude disdainefull contentious and driuen with other spirits They neuer spake against the state nor condemned the calling of priests nor said that the lawes were antichristian and diuelish these stand especially on these points abuse the gouernors and rayle against lawes and this fellowe as malepertly as the best He would further make the worlde beleeue that his clyents seeke onely for reformation and doeth euery where dubbe them with names of seekers of reformation But great difference there is betwixt pretence and performance Iacke Strawe and Wat Tyler and Kett of Norffolke and all rebels pretend reformation as well as these but the courses and deedes of both tend to nothing but disorder confusion the prince they would abase the Church they would spoyle the ecclesiasticall state they seeke to abolish learning and rewardes in all places where they come they take away Moreouer hee goein about to prooue that bishops may be hated for their doctrine and first for that they impugne that which heretofore they haue taught but neither is his cōlequent good nor antecedēt true for albeit that bishop Elmar spake sometimes against the excesse of bishops liuings as he then imagined not knowing in what state they stood yet did he neuer condemne the degree and dignitie of bishops nor did bishop Bollingham as it should seeme speake against the manners of others then papisticall bishops assuredly against the degree of bishops he neuer spake Neither are the opiniōs of one or two to be ascribed to all but if they which speake contrary to themselues deserue hatred what doeth Tho. Cartw. deserue that in many things speaketh hee knoweth not what in some things contrary to himselselfe as in election of ministers power of the presbytery and diuers poynts And what doth the Libeller deserue that confesseth hee talketh he knoweth not what contrarying his whole discourse Another reason hee bringeth to prooue that bishops may iustly be hated and that is because they confesse saith he infinite abuses to be in the church But the ground of the reason is false for no bishop did euer confesse so much nor doth it follow because some one speaketh vntrueth that all the cleargie of England should be maligned and hated Thirdly he thinketh
them worthy of hate for that hauing taught that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word they now teach that all that holde so be hereticks But he doth vs wrong for charging vs to say that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word the word Episcopus presbyter in scriptures is commonly vsed for one but we speake english call those that rule bishops and others priests which distinction we find plainly in scriptures and therefore holde the teachers of equality to be Aerians confounders of gouernment to be iustly condemned not only by Epiphanius but also by Augustine yea by the consent of all the fathers that distinguish priests into 2 sorts giuing the name of bishop to those that rule and priest to the second that are ruled And therefore most sencelesse is their reason that because they haue all one name will conclude of it aequalitie of all ministers For magistrates teachers subiectes haue all one name and yet are diuided into diuers degrees In vaine therfore doth the libeller bring proofes that the words presbyter episcopus are commonly taken for one for that notwithstāding there may be difference of degrees howsoeuer they wil answere this obiection yet is it apparant that the same ouerthroweth as I said their consistorial aldermen Away thē with the new church aldermen those heretikes that mainteine them for albeit Epiphanius erred in accompting them heretikes that prayed not for the dead yet is the same no reason to shew he erred in this which not only Augustine mainteineth but all the Fathers also not only they but the foure general counsels which this land approueth so that by the lawes of Englād they are heretiks that hold the equality of ministers what shameles dealing thē was this for the libeller to alledge the Syriake interpreter or Chrysostome or Ambrose or Theodoret whē no one speaketh for equality euery one defendeth degrees in the ministers of the word but the word cashisha saith he comprehēdeth both bishop priest what thē so doth a liuing creature comprise men beasts yet are not both equal in dignity neither doth it help him that the order of priesthood cōpriseth both bishops priests for it doth not take away the dignity of some aboue others what needed then so many names of Wicleffe Marsilius of Padua Luther Bullinger Iewel Melancthon others that speake as we do or Caluin his fellowes that speaketh against al antiquity or what needed this compagnion to muster so many names either of protestant churches seeing they were not of Caluins opiniō or of papists seing we do not follow Bellarmin Stapleton or papists but antiquity that speaketh as we doe Neither doth it follow Chrysost Hierom Augustin in 4. ad Ephes that the ecclesiasticall state is to be maliced for teaching that Pastor and Doctor are all one for so hath all antiquity taught and their interpretation by all antiquitie is confirmed Neither is it material what Caluin Beza Daneau Bertrand de loques Villiers and other say to the contrarie seing they talke contrary to antiquity reason and all practise Finally their owne practise and diuers reasons stand against Doctors which neither the libeller nor his mates make any haste to answere The exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Math. 20.25 is most absurdly forced by these compagnions to make against superior degrees in the ministery for that the apostles notwitstanding Christs prohibition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were superiour to other degrees of ministers And very absurd it were if Christ should suffer tyrants to oppresse the people and forbid lawfull authoritie to the ministers by which also would fall the authoritie of the consistorie and ministers liue without controlment And therefore as long as these fellowes interprete against all scripture antiquitie and reason yea and themselues too it skilleth not what they say against superiour degrees Against which Luther Zuinglius Melancthon Caluin Bullinger and the rest are most peruersely alledged They say and so likewise Iewell Sadeel Bridges Bilson Whitakers and others say that bishops as bishops may not take vpon them the rule of kingdomes nor rule with force like Princes But who is so simple as to cōclude hereof that one minister may not rule another as these fellowes doe But suppose some of our learned men should interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then Caluin hath done must all the clergie suffer for one mans not yeeelding to Caluins fancie Or because some denie that soueraigne princes may be excommunicate defending therein the soueraigntie of princes against the rebellious Papists and Puritans must therefore the Ecclesiasticall state bee dissolued nothing is more absurde for herein as the aduersaries deserue punishment so our men deserue speciall commendation in confuting the seditious doctrine of factious persons They also consent flatly with the Papists in denying the princes supremacy in making lawes iudging of ecclesiastical matters or appointing others to iudge them diuers other points neither can the libeller seuer their opinions from thē for first it is false that he saith that the Papists exempt their clergy in ciuill causes from the princes iurisdiction or that the consistorials do giue authoritie to the prince to deale with their consistories pastors in ecclesiasticall causes so long as they iudge they haue done well themselues for they take the dealing therein from the prince and giue power of deposition to their eldership And as the consistorials say that the prince may enforce their cōsistories making wicked decrees to make better which taking the iudgement of those matters from princes I see not how they can well do so the papists wil haue the prince not only to reforme ministers but the pope himselfe also Si Papa sit incorrigibilis Imperator potest procedere contra ipsum saith 1 Heruaeus de potest papae c. 13. Heruey papa potest accusaricoram Imperatore saith 2 Zabarel lib. de schism concil Zabarel The papists confesse that princes may make lawes with the aduise of the pope as these confesse he may with the aduise of the consistory They confesse that the prince may take order where the Pope is incorrigible as these say where their pastors are wicked and vngodly therfore the libeller doth nothing but fable where he would seuer the cōsistorials from papists but what should we looke for other at his hands seeing he is not ashamed to say that the consistorials wil subscribe to the apology of the church of England and the articles of religion authorised and published by parliament which deny the degrees of the ministery and oppugne them which are confirmed both by the apology and by articles of religion professed in this church Lastly they take exception against vs for that we teach that the best 1 All the ancient Fathers and of late writers Melancthon Luther and of others the best writers are against the eldership as if it were not proued by
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
ouerthrowe of the ministery as too late now the ministers thēselues there begin to feele why should it I say be more lawful there then with vs Article 8 If the bishops publish any Canons or orders to be practised without the royall assent of her Maeistie they should bee fined and imprisoned 25. H. 8. c. 19 yet notwithstanding this statute they publish subscriptions in their prouinces and articles in their Diocesses without any assent of her Highnesse Answere The end of this article is to haue the bishops imprisoned and fined according to the rules of puritane charitie But the meanes and proofes whereby the articulators endeuour to effect it are all too weake For they can neither prooue that they haue published Canons constitutions and prouinciall ordinances without the princes assent nor that they haue done any thing therein against lawe nay albeit in their subscriptions they require nothing but obedience to lawe yet did they not require them without speciall warrant But saith the accuser they publish new subscriptions articles Goodly stuffe As if either subscriptions or articles were canons or constitutions or ordinances or els such as minister priuate articles about matters in ciuill courts could be said to make new lawes It appeareth the man is but a nouice in law that knewe not what is law That he erre not let him vnderstand that the ordinances of discipline made by T.C. and his fellowes were made contrary to this statute And therefore if they desire Iustice to be done let the lawe be executed vpon offenders and let innocents be no more wronged Article 9 Ecclesiasticall officers extort from schoolemasters sometime 7. s. sometime more and make them subscribe both contrary to lawe Answere If they take 7. s. for a licence it is not much I know a petifogger yea a Scriuano that for writing a licence hath taken 7. li. let them therefore both bee punished together according to the seueral qualities of their offence and let all takers and extortioners answere for their extortions I defend them not I excuse them not I fauour them not As for subscriptiō of schoolemasters how can it be misliked seeing it is only for confirmation of law exacted of them least they should instill discontētment schismatical heretical opinions into their schollers minds Done at Geneua Ordon de l'esehole de Geneua as but too many factious and puritane schoolemasters haue done to the great preiudice of this Church and state the more haue they to answere for that haue suffered them and more care ought men to haue that such nurseries of rebellion bee not suffered But what reason hath this pettifogger or the scriuano his suggestor to condemne subscriptions seeing both of them win more by scribling and subscribing then any ecclesiasticall person I know in England Article 10 By the great charter none may bee imprisoned but by the lawfull iudgement of his Peeres or by the law of the land Answere By the lawes of the great charter the priuiledges of the church state ecclesiastical are with most pregnant termes confirmed and yet this faction without regarde either of charters or lawes or honor of the prince that is sworne to maintaine them or of the reputation of the realme that standeth most in maintenance of Gods church religion goeth about to ouerthrow both the ecclesiasticall state and all the customes rights priuiledges of the church if then he think it not lawful to infringe the lawes of Magna Charta what presumption is this that he his companions directly oppugne them on the contrary side he cannot charge any iustly with the breach of lawes let him if he can name any that hath imprisoned any contrary to the lawes of Magnacharta if he cannot why doth he speake of imprisonment to no purpose If he affirme any such matter of bishops he doth them wrong For they imprison none by authority Episcopal If he speake against the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical he is to vnderstand that diuers of them being of the most honorable persons and Iudges in the land they will not doe any thing against law Nor doe they commit any but contumacious offenders whom no lawe may spare That they punish men for not swearing vainely is a vaine lye To say that an othe offered by a magistrate is vaine is both disloyaltie and Anabaptistrie But all this rigour is clemencie in respect of the consistoriall proceedings For there men are censured by opinion and ministers disgraced vpon suspicion and Caluine put a syndicke and diuers chiefe men of Geneua to their oathe to answere whether they had bene daunsing at widow Baltazars house and after that remooued diuers of them from their places he that liketh these orders must needes commend ours Article 11 By the common lawe a man shall not be examined vpon his othe in matters that sound to his reproch Crompton 182. Answere Cromptons worde is no measure of lawe The contrarie hereof is lawe by the opinion of the most learned Iudges in England It is the practise of the court of Chancerie in the court of the coūcel of the marches principalitie of Wales in the court of Starrechamber whereas the parties are examined vpon their othes vpon periuries forgeries and many other misdemeanors Suppose it be at the instance of parties which notwithstanding is not alwayes yet it appeareth that othes to discouer things reprochfull to a mans selfe bee lawfull and very common and most necessarie And a simple lawyer was he that vnderstood not so much Likewise in other courtes of recorde at Westminster the iudges by corporall othe examine any person whome they haue cause to suspect to haue dealt lewdly about any writte returne entrie of rule such like matters By the statute of inquisitiō 1 Stat. de Exon de Inquisit super Coronat vpon Coroners the enquirors shall make the Bailiffes sweare that they shall conceale nothing no though it be penall to them Masters of shippes are to bee put to answere on their othes vpon the statute of money 9. Edw. 3. c. 9. Whether they haue committed any fraude So likewise they that are charged vpon the statute 2 8. Edw. 4. c. 2. of liueries must answere the bill vpon their othe though the matter be penall The same is apparant by the statute of wines 24. H. 8. c. 2. of banckrupts 34. H. 8. c. 4. by the statute of supremacie by the statute of Fugitiues 13. Eliz. c. 3. In appeales at the Common lawe the defendant before battell is driuen to 3 Stanf. Pleas of the crowne lib. 3. c. 14. sweare A Iuror departing from his companie was examined on his othe whether he had talked with the defendant yet if he had confessed it the same had bene penall M. 34. Edw. 3. fol. 3. In an action of formedon couin being found by othe in the defendant hee was punished by the Iudges discretion T. 7. H. 4. fol. 19. The othe of supremacie may be giuen
barking curres as this which without reason baull at lawes and antiquitie and if they had might would bite also Article 36 There be many Churches in England that haue scarce had 12. sermons in 12. yeeres Answere The cause why in some places there are so fewe sermons preached is for that the liuing is appropried and that such as haue it haue no care of mens soules let the articulator therefore article against them and not impute their faultes to the cleargie that cannot doe withall if among the cleargie hee knoweth any that doe not their duetie or that preach not their sermons why doth he not name them that order may be taken that sermons may be had according to lawe If he can name none why doth he mention many And if there be any default herein why doth hee deface the state and not rather blame those greedie persons that by taking away the liuings of Churches are cause of this disorder Wherefore to answere him let him this vnderstand that there are mo learned Preachers and Sermons preached in England proportion for proportion then eyther in Fraunce or Scotland howsoeuer the same seeme to him to be refourmed Article 37 Erasmus paraphrasis should be had in all Churches Answere Accuse them that haue it not There is none more guilty then the brother-hoode of Puritans that condemne all good learning and care for none other bookes then the Geneua Bible Caluins institutions and Bezaes Comments excepting alwayes Caluins Commentaries on Iob and Martyrs common places in English Nor haue other cause to like of Erasmus paraphrasis but that now all their exercises bee nothing but light and fantasticall paraphrases except alwayes some heauie and malicious inuectiues Article 38 Ecclesiasticall persons shoulde not play at unlawfull games as Cardes Dice c. but they offende more then any other that pretend conformitie Answere I tolde you that this Reuellors purpose was rather to rayle then amend any matter Why doth he not name these gamesters and vnlawfull games and proue that such games as are vsed are vnlawfull nay when he hath proued what hee can I doe thinke that honest recreations that some ministers vse are more commendable then the sabothes exercises of most puritans Article 39 Non residents should distribute the 40. part of their liuing to the poore of the parish which they doe not Likewise they should mayntayne schollers Answere I knowe none more hard-hearted then the Puritans nor more bountifull then the Clergie to the poore As for Pettifoggers and Scribes they do skinne the poore and helpe them not Nothing therefore could bee more vnseasonable then this accusation For albeit the Ministerie by the spoyles of Patrons and griedie Gulles and wicked vexations of Puritans are almost now the poorest of the parish yet are they not sparing to giue euery man according to his facultie And as for some bishops it shal be prooued that they are as ready to maintayne and preferre learned schollers as the Puritans to impouerish them and spoyle them the rest let them answere for themselues Blush therefore you sacrilegious Church-robbing Puritans the ruinors of all churches and shame to talke of liberalitie and maynetenance of schollers For by your barking and by your spoyles and by your crying out against the reward of learning and by that pouertie and contempt you haue brought the ministerie into you haue almost ouerthrowen the ministery in Scotland religion in France would ouerthrow both in England And what should we els looke for at their hands seeing in racking of Rents exteremitie of dealing vsurie and vnlawfull practises of gaine and Turkish and inhumane crueltie diuers of these zelatours of puritanisme passe both Turkes and Heathen Article 40 The Queenes Iniunctions are not read quarterly as they should be Answere They are read as oft as neede is and if any negligence bee committed it is by the Puritans that bring all lawes into contempt sure they are contemned more by them then any for they openly impugne them not onely neglect them But admit they should be read very often yet would not the Puritans heare them nor obey them For they neyther respect her Maiestie nor her lawes but in despite of both seeke to establish a new gouernment and newe Iniunctions for which if they doe not shortly reforme themselues there will bee such penance inioyned them that they will better remember Iniunctions all their life long Article 41 Holy-dayes should bee spent in godly exercises Bishops bestowe them prophanely in playing at Bowles hearing Comedies and Tragedies Answere Very vnlikely it is that such fellowes as this should teach Bishops how to bestowe their time seeing there is none bestoweth these dayes worse then the hypocriticall secte of Puritans that in slaundering factious declayming against lawes and gouernours in chambring and chambring exercises yea and in worse matters doe bestowe their time in corners doing things which you may conceiue I may not vtter and therefore these are prophane and wicked hypocrites As for honest exercises why may they not be vsed vpon holy dayes so it be not in times of seruing God Wherefore vnlesse the Libeller can shew both better law and reason against bowles and other exercises well vsed and shewe cause why Tragedies may not be heard his accusation will rather seeme to proceede from malice then other cause and hee will bee taken for a prophane sencelesse hypocrite that is offended with bowling and exercises of learning and yet thinketh it lawfull to make an occupation of lying slaundering and defacing of good men and alloweth the secrete and parlour conferences of his fellowe Puritans and many other bad practises whereof some are comicall others tragicall and most of their discipline fabulous or a comicall fable Article 42 The Bishops be not without superstitious paintings in their chambers and diuers Churches haue them not abolished Article 22 To condemne the historicall and ciuill vse of painting is vnciuill and sauoureth of Turcisme Other vses of painting bishops haue none neyther is there now any superstitious vse of payntings in church wyndowes but those that are if they displease the Libeller he may haue downe at pleasure when hee will set newe glasse in their place The paintings that doe more harme are in apparell ruffes yea womens faces and their furniture wherein I would the Puritans did not commit both Idolatrie and other follie Wherefore seeing he is in the way as hee pretendeth of Reformation let these abuses of pricking pride painting be remoued also let him take heede that superstitiously he doe not make an idole of his discipline that both out of church and common wealth is to be abolished Article 43 The wiues of Ministers and Deacons should bee allowed by the Ordinary and two Iustices of peace But many forward Chapleyns regarde not this Answere In disdaine this scorneful wretch calleth learned Ministers Chapleins sparing neyther his aduersaries nor friends the Puritans that are for the most part trencher Chapleins nor others But what such lewde
frameth an articulat infamous libell A second fault it is that such leude and shamefull practises are notwithstanding sayd to be drawen by a fauourer of reformation as if there were no difference betwixt slandering and reforming A third fault hee committeth in affirming these questions to be annexed by the Printer But the greatest fault is that such shamefull libels are commonly solde and the authors passed ouer without punishment Quaere first whether Iustice Wray did not affirme Putcase Quaest 1. that men should incurre no penaltie for opinions which they helde doubtingly and whether a man may not without breach of lawe make Quaerees and doubtes whether I may not be a Putcase I haue enquired of those Answere that were present at the time when these wordes are pretended to bee spoken and they doe assure me that hee neuer vttered any such words which I haue no reason to doubt of for it is not probable that so reuerend and learned a Iudge shoulde mayntaine or deliuer so strange an assertion for in matters fundamentall of faith to doubt is haeresie as all diuines doe agree And in externall matters the Apostle saith that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne And who woulde not detest him that would make a doubt whether these disciplinarians be impious and flagitious fellowes that affirme it to be lawfull to make doubts and questions in those cases The very Paganes were farre more reasonable then this impious Putcase For the Athenians banished 1 Cie de natur Deor. Protagoras for doubting whether there were a God or no. As for matters of state I doubt not but whosoeuer shall doubt and make a question and not categorically affirme that her Maiestie hath right to her crowne and is supreme Gouernour within her dominions in all causes and ouer all persons is a ranke traytor Let therefore Pierce Putcase looke to it a little better and cleare himselfe of doubting and questioning least hee bee taken for a traytor out of doubt To come to the matter in question it is also euident that whosoeuer doth make questions to the diffamation eyther of the gouernment or gouernours or of priuate persons liuing in obedience of lawes he is to be punished as a libeller And therfore I would wish the man to shut vp himselfe in a case to take heed that he be not taken abroad For he wil be in a very bad case for his libelling and putting of cases if euer his reuelling against her Maiestie her ecclesiasticall lawes her officers and many other good men shal come in scanning Quaere Putcase Quaest 2. whether the forme of prayers administratiō of sacramēts attyre of ministers other ceremonies in England do more agree to the Apostolicall and primitiue order or to the vse of the Romish church whether popish orders be more seemely thē the Apostolike The questioner supposeth that I will answere that Answere which maketh for his purpose not doubting but to cut vs downe with the next blow But in vaine doth he feed himself with his owne conceit For I answere and will shewe that our liturgie and ceremonies agree neerer to the liturgie and ceremonies of the primitiue Church then to the popish orders And that is apparent first in quality for that wee haue purged out all idolatrie superstition false doctrine in which the papists do most differ from the ancient Church Secondly in forme For as the Iewes had readings of the law certaine hymnes and prayers interposed so no doubt the Apostles kept the reading of scriptures with prayers interposed which forme we keepe the papists keepe not The papists reade no scriptures and haue other formes of prayers Thirdly in the language for as in anciēt time so now we vse our mother tōgue Nay further we come neerer in our formes to the primitiue church then the consistorial orders For they haue no set reading of scrptures nor forme of liturgie as they had in the times of the first fathers and are so vnlike them that they haue abolished al the orders of the ancient Church They haue no set praiers but leaue al to the discretion of their speaker as they cal him who cōceiueth prayers either so confused that they are not vnderstood or so vncharitable that a true Christian may not say Amen Contrariwise ancient counsels decreed that no praiers should bee said in the church but such as first should by cōmon authority be allowed And albeit apparel is a matter indifferent yet in publike liturgie wee come neerer to the Apostolike Church whereas the puritanes haue abolished al Apostolike orders as they haue abolished al Apostolike gouernement To the last part of the question whether popish ceremonies bee more decent then Apostolicall I answere that where they are contrarie there the Apostolike is more decent But I denie that eyther the newe consistoriall gouernement or the ceremonies by the same appointed are Apostolicall or that our ceremonies are papisticall Nay I say that their newe orders are not Apostolicall but fantasticall and that our gouernement is Apostolicall neyther shall they euer be able to prooue the contrary Quaere Putcase Quaest 3. whether our rites and ceremonies doe not giue offence to the papists and whether indifferent things causing offence ought not by Pauls doctrine to be remooued out of the Church Whether they giue offence to the papistes or no Answere wee are not to respect nor to omit ancient and Apostolike orders to please them To good men the vse of our ceremonies cannot giue iust offence Nay rather the confusion of the newe gouernment and absurditie in the newe liturgie giueth offence for it confirmeth the papists in their opinion and offendeth all that are comming forward to ioyne with vs. For they see not how that can be the Church that refuseth all ancient gouernement and ceremonies and is nothing but a bundell of nouelties And therefore in vaine is the latter part of the question propounded whether matters that giue offence be by S. Pauls doctrine to be remooued for wee denie that our ceremonies doe giue offence Quaere Putcase Quaest 4. whether the square cappe surplesse c. condemned in generall by the Queenes Iniunctions bishops articles and doctrine of England and other Churches misliked by Bullinger Alasco Bucer Pilkington Bale and other learned men be decent and comely for a preacher and being vncomely whether they should not be abolished out of the Church First it is denied Answere that the attyre of ministers in England now is condemned by the Queenes iniunctions or bishops articles or doctrine of England A shamelesse man was he that affirmed it so impudently and so to bee credited accordingly for the contrary is euident both by doctrine of the Church and law of the realme And neuer shall this bold bayardlike Putcase prooue them either to be monumentes of poperie or defiled with idolatrie let him begin when he wil. What other Churches mislike in themselues we do not
probable nor euer did shee desire it nor can the Libeller proue it Onely she desireth that according to the lawes of God and the Realme as she and the learned iudges do interprete them and as the words doe signifie she may rule the Church This they doe denie and doe attribute this power to the factious Consistorie and therefore are factious Puritans Quaere Put-case Quest 13. whether the Archbishops of Canterbury should not rather be called Popes then Primates of all England seeing that a Cardinall gaue them the name of Primate as master Lambert saith and a Pope assigned them the name of Popes Heere I must also aske the Put-case a question or two viz. Answere why Tho. Cartwright is not called Tho. Wheelewright seeing hee would turne all round as a wheele and why W. Staw is not called Iohn Daw like reason is in both Names are giuen some by Lawe some gotten by vse And therefore seeing Archbishopsare called Primates euer since before the councell of Carthage great absurditie it is to dispute whether the Archbishop should be so called or no. And farre was master Lambert from his recknoning when he imagined the Cardinall Hugo to bee author of that name Neither can he shew that the Archbishop was euer called Pope by Vrban before the factious Puritans in their rayling vayne deuised that name for him in scorne But whatsoeuer was giuen sometime or nowe is in scorne cast on him hee renounceth the name Pope for the abuse of it and is farre from clayming the Papall authoritie If hee had the authoritie eyther of the Pope or of a meane Bishop yet durst not euery Sycophant play with his name and style neyther would such base fellowes so shamefully abuse him Hee ruleth by lawes he deriueth his authoritie from her Maiestie he can doe no man wrong he is vtter enemie to all papall authoritie Contrariwise the Lordes of the consistorie take on them like Popes to iudge in Christes seate to be Christes vicars to controll and excommunicate Princes to dissolue States to giue lawe to Kings to throwe to hell and no man may once speake against them where they rule without danger of their libertie and life These therefore are popes in deede and seeing they are so why may they not be called also Popes seeing they are dubbed with this name by diuers Quaere Put-case Quest 14. if Wickleffe Luther Caluin c. were nowe aliue and should speake against the Lordship of Bishops as they doe in their writings to which prison the Bishops would send them and whether doe bookes seene and allowed conteine matters of Felonie and diffamatorie to the Queene Quaere also Answere if the skie should fall where would bee best catching of woodcockes both questions are alike For as the skie wil not fal in haste so would not these learned men mentioned in this question euer open their mouthes against godly men or the state degree of bishops That is onely proper to the foulemouthed puritanes They speake against the tyranny and vanities of popish bishops with whome our puritanes doe not much meddle but rather treacherously strike good souldiers that fight against thē Our puritanes declaime against holy bishops of times past and preachers of the holy Gospel such as those learned men neuer condemned Let the libeller if he can bring forth one place which is not meant of papisticall bishops And therefore let them goe to the Fleete themselues as mutinous companions the fellowshippe of those learned men they cannot haue whose bookes although they bee allowed for diuerse good things found in them yet can it be no warrant for the platformers high stiled declamations nor any iustification for that which is euill For there can bee nothing more vnlike then bishop Latimers booke and Cartwrightes replies defacing the bishops Neyther are the wordes seene and allowed sufficient to warrant seditious writings For sometimes printers are too bold sometime the authors sometime the correctors and it cannot bee denyed but in Wickleffes bookes there bee faultes Chaucer and Reynold the Foxe are allowed to bee printed and many bookes moe for the good they haue not that any part of the leudnesse of them is allowed And therefore let the Putcase leaue pleading of seene and allowed seeing wee can neyther see his consortes much nor allowe them nor approoue whatsoeuer by their fauourers is printed though it be with seene and allowed Quaere why papists should finde more fauour Putcase Quaest 15. them the seekers of reformation and why they should not bee condemned as felons for their abominable doctrine If all should be punished Answere that maintaine abominable doctrine it would go very hard with the puritanes whose haeretical and leud opinions are very many and very abominable The particulers I haue in part touched before and shall if neede be lay them downe more amplie elsewhere Let not therfore this Putcase repine at her Maiesties clemencie wherin her special honor consisteth seeing they enioy it liue by it themselues let them not enuie it to others That papistes are more fauoured then puritanes is a bold and impudent assertion for it is wel knowen that diuers of them haue bene executed some as traytors some as felons others haue payde for it as recusants whereas none of this faction haue bene punished in like degree saue Hacket albe it they denie her Maiesties supremacie many of them refuse to come to church If there bee any that haue fauoured papists let them susteyne the shame of it for the ecclesiasticall state hath bene most diligent to suppresse them whereas contrariwise by entreatie fauour meanes made by puritanes by some one that hath his finger in this petition many haue bene dismissed First therefore I answere that it is vntrue that papists find fauour more then puritanes Secondly that the fauour which is procured for them proceeded specially from puritanes and their fauourers Thirdly that neither of them both deserueth fauour Fourthly that seeing her Maiesties pleasure is to shew them fauour for their liues they are not to repine at it nor malepertly to traduce her doings Lastly that the puritanes in termes do more maliciously oppugne her Maiesties proceedings ecclesiastical lawes then the most trecherous papists that are fled for the same out of the land And that therefore they are to quiet themselues and not to stirre in this their bad cause for the more it is opened the worse it sauoureth Quaere Putcase Quaest 16. if the bishops proceedings against men per ordinem inquisitionis doe not resemble the papall order in the time of crueltie Nothing is lesse like Answere for the Iudges now proceede by authority of her Maiestie and according to her lawes and yet are abused by euery base felow In times past they proceeded by other authoritie and by orders from the Popes then no man durst abuse thē These punish according to the Queenes lawes those according to their
for such men when Luna is praedominant in their heades 18 Quaere whether it be a matter tolerable and beseeming wise gouerners that clownes and men of occupatiō should determine matters of religion or that ideots should iudge of lawe and gouerne all matters ecclesiasticall and by what rule of diuinitie it may be surmised that an ignorant man being chosen an Elder shoulde sodenly be endued with new graces and as Th. Cartw. the great disciplinarian patriarke faith become a new man as if he were new perboyled in Peleus his tubbe 19 When the Consistorie consisteth of 13 good men and true whereof sixe looke one way and seuen another Quaere why the odde voyce should make the sentence of seuen to be the determination of the Church and whether this be not an odde discipline where one odde man maketh a determination to be called the Churches determination 20 Quaere by what lawe Doctors Pastors and Deacons make one corporation seeing in no place of scripture they are mentioned together nor by any authoritie or commission are linked together 21 Quaere by what authoritie the Ministers of forreine churches take on them to prescribe formes of discipline and new lawes vnto our Church seeing they teach that all churches haue equall power and whether this be not a foundation to a new popedome 22 Quaere whether all the errours of Barrowisme doe not folowe and may be concluded of Th. Cartw. Wat. Tr. and Dud. Fenners positions and whether this sort of men is fit to deale with those sectaries and ought not rather to be driuen to make a publike recantation of their foule opinions 23 Quaere in case a musterd seller or chandeller should be chosen a churchalderman and thought worthie to iudge of the highest matters of religion who should all that while furnish the common wealth with musterd and candels and whether that their sentences would not sauour ranke of musterd and tallowe and how many candlesellers or men of occupation they finde to haue bene present in Synodes of olde time at the debating of pointes of religion 24 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not flatly deny the principall pointes of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the church to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from the Ecclesiasticall courtes to call Synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuour to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her maiesties prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church and all her maiesties subiectes 25 Quaere if the establishment of the consistoriall discipline in the Church of England would not ouerthrowe infinite statutes most of the Common lawes diuers courtes of Iustice the two Vniuersities and innes of court and finallie the whole state and whether the Vniuersities in places where this discipline is entred be not decayed and the state shaken notwithstanding that the power thereof by diuers lawes contrarie to the rules of discipline is abridged 26 Quaere how many sound diuines or learned men there are that haue bene bredde in the places where this discipline is receiued and whether they haue not parted the Church goods among themselues where they were masters as the soldiors parted Christes coate giuing some little portion backe againe of the whole least they should liue all together without religion 27 Quaere whether it be likelie for the vaine hope of a hundred poundes pention depending on the vncerteine pleasures of marchants men of occupation and husbandmen that yong men of towardnes will giue themselues to the studie of diuinitie and what braue youthes are made ministers within the disciplinarians iurisdiction 28 Quaere how the spoyles of the Church which these men haue made in all places where they rule are bestowed and what portion thereof is come to the maintenance of learned men or learning 29 Quaere what commodities her maiestie doth receiue now by renthes subsidies first fruites patronages lapses custodies of bishops temporalities and how much the same amounteth vnto likewise what seruices she hath now by the Ecclesiasticall state and their followers and whether shee should not loose both great reuenues and make many faithfull seruitors vnable to serue her if this inkepot discipline shoulde come in place and if any man say that the same should be bestowed vpon noblemen and knightes and gentlemen that should succeede in the place of others let inquire be made whether some puritane dame doe not spend in apparell more then the reuenues of diuers cathedral churches and whether it would fall out that the reuenues of the Church would bee wasted vainely which now mainetaine manie able men to doe the prince seruice 30 Quaere whether in all places where the factious disciplinarians haue set foote in this Church they haue not set the people against their pastors and deuided the people among themselues and hardened mens heartes and made them without naturall affection and lifted vp their followers in pride and vanitie and made the people farre worse then before and sought nothing but their owne profite and aduancement 31 Quaere whether it be not a dangerous point to this Church and state that we are so much vrged by some to imitate the course helde for reformation by them of Geneua and Scotland heretofore considering the dangerousnes of their plattes and the effectes that followed vpon them and the vnsounde diuinitie whereupon they are grounded 32 Quaere by what point of discipline they of Geneua expulsed their Bishop and liege Lorde and right Countie of Geneua and what reuenues of the Church they seased into their handes and what portion they allowed backe againe to the poore ministerie and whether it bee not capitall in that state to speake for the estate of Bishops which pointes cleared it will appeare what reason they had first at Geneua to inueigh and declaime against the state of Bishops Quaere whether the peremptorie dealings of the ministers of Geneua and some others adhearing vnto them and the greedie sacrilege of their abbettors and followers and the vtter subuersion of the ecclesiasticall state which this antischolasticall and fantasticall discipline doeth euery where worke haue not greatly hindered the reformation of religion in France and other places and is not still likely to hinder the same vnlesse the same be newly recocted and reformed 34 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not deliuer doctrine as dangerous to princes as Rosse Sanders Allen and other papistes namely concerning excommunication deposing and murdering of princes that withstand the religion and reformation which eache of them respectiuely desireth 35 Quaere whether 1 History of the Church of Scotland pag. 213. Knoxe saide truely of Caluin and certeine other Ministers then residing at Geneua and if hee reporte their doctrine truely whether they holde a sounde point of doctrine teaching That it is lawfull for