cōpanie of learned and indifferent men haue doubted of yea vse this for a maxime that such pointes must of necessitie be doubted of as being not with in the reach of euident conuiction Let but I saie these men come to write against Catholikes and you shall haue them pretende whole listes of demonstrations and whole pages will not suffice to recken vp the absurdities which they imagine doe follow out of some one Catholike pointe so necessarie it is that these men contradict them selues who contradict the truth of Christ and his church Nephew Why the Protestants ought to returne to the church of Rome Your argument me thinke's is good against the first beginners of the breach from the Catholike church but will not suffice against mē that nowe liue who seeme to be a framed and setled church and haue receiued this doctrine from their fathers For we see that possession though at the first vnlawfully gotten doth in time preuaille and quarells cease euen where Princes are pretenders If the welch men should now pretende to haue beene vnjustly put out of England by the Saxons The Romans out of France by the french The Greekes out of Italie by the Goths who would thinke their quarells iust So likewise why should the Protestants though their time be not so long nor their possession so quiet rather yeild to the church of Rome then the church of Rome to them or to the church of England for example vnlesse the church of Rome can demonstrate hir positiōs against the Protestāts which I haue not heard anie of our learned mē saie she cā Vncle. Although it be both reasonable in all liklyhood and peraduenture may be cōuinced that who first parted and made the diuision ought in law of good gouerment to returne And although I could likewise pretende that the church of England compared to that church which liueth in communitie with the church of Rome is but a smale part and therefore bound to yeild to the greater for to saie that the Protestāts of England liue in communitie with all other churches but the Roman is manifestly false since all other churches will Anathematize diuers of their tenets and they also the tenets of other churches nor is there anie rule of vnitie and cōmunion amongst them Although I saie I could vrge these and other reasons to this effect yet I will only propose you two The Catholike church cannot come to the Protestants The former shall plainely shew that the Catholike church cānot yeild vnto Protestants without essentially ruining hir self and therefore no possible vnion betwixt the churches vnlesse the Protestants will bend For if the Catholike church doth essentially subsiste and mantaine hir selfe vpon this principle and grounde that she hath receiued hir doctrine frō Iesus Christ by word of mouth and succession from hand to hand which cannot faile put the case she yeilde's to the church of Englād in anie pointe which she holdeth vpō this principle is it not euident that she must of necessitie forgoe hir hold and for sake hir only principle where vpon is built all hir faith and beliefe is it not manifest that she may as well forsake all as anie one pointe which she holdeth vpō this tennor and motiue sure it is But the Protestants holding their doctrine and positions vpon no such tye but only vpon their owne at most probable interpretation of the scripture which they may change vpon better consideration are vpon farr easier termes to yeild and that without preiudice to their Religion or iudgment Because tenets only holdē vpon probabilitie may be changed vpon anie good occasion or new knowne motiue without disparregment to the Authour And certainely what church soeuer doth not thinke hir selfe vnerrable in anie pointe what she holdeth may be false and therefore it were temeritie for such a church to hold anie pointe certainely true And if she hold not anie pointe certainely true why should not the verie reasons of state and interest seeke to haue them changed and setled secure and infalible sithēce humane nature is euer inclined to belieue what 's for hir owne profit The second reason doth proue that the Protestant is bound in nature and by the light of reason to yeild to the Catholike communion For if nature teach vs that a Protestant's practize ought not to contradict his principles and iudgment of his reason And that the necessitie and force of Experience doth conuince most euidētly that there is no Gouerment in a church without prescribing of some tenets and forbidding of others restraining or punishing if neede be such as wil not complie with those prescribed Canōs or articles And that t' is likewise euident that this is contrarie to the libertie of opinion which the Protestāt putte's for his first and cheefe maxime to approue his separation frō the Roman church will it not follow with out contradiction that ether the Protestants must breake with reason and the nature of man in holding libertie in their iudgments and vnderstandings and obliging to obedience in their will and practize Or els they must close with the Catholike church in their iudgments and professe the inerrabilitie of the church at least so farr as obligeth hir subiects not to withstand or oppose but to submitte and obey hir Canons and commādes And for your exāples of politicke states which by possessiō and prescription haue at length obtained right you must remember that all their beginnings and groundes are vpon humane nature and consent of men and therefore by the same law by which they were made they may be likewise altered But the church of God was made by Christ and his Ministers and therefore reasō tell 's vs that hir institution is to be inuiolably cōserued nor ought or can anie prescription of time preuaile against hir Wherefore sithēce that church which the Protestants parted from held an holdeth still that the church of God nether is nor can be but one in all ages and places which position she professeth to haue teceiued in the same manner and vpō the same grounde as she hath receiued the rest of hir doctrine they Protestants must of necessitie first shew that they are the true church of Christ before they can pleade possessiō or prescription For if there can be but one church no prescription can make them that one sithence at their verie begining and euer since an other both was and is in more quiet possession then they and pleade's the same title more strongly Nephew Why then vncle I see there remaineth no other question but whether the Protestants can conuince their positions or noe Which I belieue would be a hard taske Wherefore vncle I thāke you hartily for this good lesson It growe's late I feare I shall hold you vp to long t' is time for you to take your reste Vncle. T' is true nephew they ought in deede to conuince and demonstrate their tenents and I know of no other waie they haue to doe
should be willing to heare of my wiue's misdemainours before they come to that height and euidence for mine owne caueat if which God forbid she should proue vntrue But there is a great difference betwixt giuing warning of likelyhoods and apparences of a mischeefe whereby it may be preuented and blemishing or staining my wiue's and myne owne honnour with the deepest disgrace that can fall vpon such an indiuiduall couple Besides I know the bond of loue and dutie betwixt man and wife to be so great as that ordinarie suspicious ought not to persuade 〈◊〉 â—reaâ—â— in so strong a knot the greater and harder effect must haue a more powerfull cause and it were a folly to thinke all proofes sufficient and befitting all cases And in my minde the reason is because no amitie nor fidelitie can subsists if such principles were suffered to be taught and mantained For how is it possible human accidents of them selues being intricate and variable and men now adays so wittie to doe harme and mischeefe but that euerie false tongue shall set dissention betwixt the neerest and dearest couples And mutinie and stir vp to sedition the most faithfull subiects against their Prince if lesse then morall euidence be sufficient to proue matters of this nature and qualitie Wherefore I doe not thinke his Maiestie would suffer his preachers to drawe their PediGree from Rome if he did not perswade him selfe they were able to bring satisfactorie proofes of their relinquishing that authoritie for this were to authorize a Rebellion against the court and state of conscieÌ„ce Which hath a greater force and power then pure temporall Allegiance this being grounded vpon oath and dutie both which receiue their strength and vertue from conscience If therefore you inteÌ„de to giue me full satisfaction in this pointe you must cleerely shewe vnto me that the Protestants proofes are insufficient Which though I doubt not of it seeing our men haue euer beene so readie to buckle with the Protestants euen vpoÌ„ most disaduantagious conditions yet I conceiue that this cannot be otherwise effected then by experience bringing them to dispute together Vncle Deare cozen I am hartily glad to heare you discourse so strongly and solidly it giue 's me great hopes of your future abilities But if you will haue patience your self shall be iudge of my question nor doe I thinke it needefull to haue recours to anie farther learning then common sense and naturall reasoÌ„ first therefore let vs see whether §. 3 Standing in likelyhood the 〈…〉 partie be greater more learned and more vertuous SVppose then you had a case in law of great difficultie and that you should consult in Councell a douzen or twentie lawyers reputed the best of the Preaâ—â—â—e or at least the worst of them farr beyond your skil to iudge whether he were not as able as the best And of these twenty seuenteene or eighteene of them should saie you would infalibly loose your cause if you tooke such or such a course in it the other 2. or 3. should as constantly affirme you would winne it in so much that the question would be brought to this contestation whether lawyers were more learned and skillfull To which side would you cleaue in this case Nephew If you suppose me vnable to iudge of their skill and learning and that they be all equaly reputed hoÌ„nest men though in deede I cannot well see how they can come to such an obstinate coÌ„testation if they be all as they are reputed I must needes choose the multitude aÌ„d ether take with the seuenteene or playe the foole notoriously I see well inough what you ayme at to wit that because Catholike countries are greater then Protestants iudgment therefore is to be giuen on the Catholikes side But I praye how shall I know that there be more learned men amongst Catholikes theÌ„ amongst Protestants Or that the Catholike Doctours be more learned them ours at home Ti 's true I know our learned men saie that they Protestants of other countries are not of the same Religion with ours heare in EnglaÌ„d yet I see they agree all together against vs what discordes soeuer they haue amongst them selues Vncle. Your fresh witts runne to fast Remember you were supposed to be ignorant of the proportion of their learning in your lawyers case and therefore choosed the multitude Wherefore as long as it is constantly confessed that there be farr more learned men Catholikes then there be learned Protestants so long the laye people ignorant and vnable to iudge of learnings must stand conuinced by the multitude of which this vulgar knowe's no more but that they are accounted learned by those amoÌ„gst whom they liue as ours are heare with vs. And to giue you farther satisfaction in this pointe There be more learned Catholikes then Protestants you know that maÌ„ for man by all likelyhood Readers of Diuinitie are the greatest schollers their exercise and profession specially if they be of manie yeares enabling and improuing them more then others who haue not the like occasion Of these compare the number which England afforde's to the multitudes which Catholike countries yeildes You haue beene in Paris where you might haue seene in some one howse or College more then be in all England whereof some haue taught Diuinitie a douzen or twentie yeares fiue or six actually reeding and as manie perhaps who hauing spent a great part of their age in that profession haue now giuen ouer I speake no secrets the most ignorant man that is may see and proue what I saie with his owne eyes ether in Italie spaine Germanie France or Low countries And I may adde that the time which one of theÌ„ spende's in studie is double to what one in our Vniuersities heare in England doth imploye These being married men hauing care of their wiues and Children and are saith S. Paul deuided 1. Cor. 7. one halfe to their bookes the other to their househould And you know wiues are no friends of bookes learning and children spring both from the braine and both require abundance of spirits and therefore not wel mached together And sure amongst Catholikes a learned resolution is rather to be looked for at a Priest's hands ordinarily speaking then from a maried man by reason his time breeding and imployment are more proportioned therevnto To these learned meÌ„ now liuing you may adde all that liued for manie ages not so vnlearned as the Protestants perswade themselues sithence the verie first beginners of Protestancie mett with their matches such as they ether did not dare to meete face to face or if they did they still came of with dishonor Wherefore euerie man that vnderstande's anie thing more then his owne home must needes grant that if number or likelyhood of persons may carie the cause the question in ended Wherevnto I could adde that reason which you mentioned how the Protestants in diuers countries are not of our Religion nether in respect of beliefe or Gouerment No
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can