which to some degree will again encourage the Reader and so I leave him to the perusal of what follows THE RELATION OF THE Conference Monday Afternoon the third of April 1676. D. S. and M. B. went to M. L. T 's as they had been desired by L. T. to confer with some Persons upon the Grounds of the Church of Englands separating from Rome and to shew how unreasonable it was to go from our Church to theirs About half an hour after them came in S.P.T. Mr. W. and three more There were present seven or eight Ladies three other Church-men and one or two more When we were all set D. S. said to S.P.T. that we were come to wait on them for justifying our Church that he was glad to see we had Gentlemen to deal with from whom he expected fair dealing as on the other hand he hoped they should meet with nothing from us but what became our profession S. P. said they had Protestants to their Wives and there were other Reasons too to make them with they might turn Protestants therefore he desired to be satisfyed in one thing And so took out the Articles of the Church and read these words of the Sixth Article of the Holy Scriptures So that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of Faith or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation Then he turned to the Twenty Eighth Article of the Lords Supper and read these words And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith and added he desired to know whether that was read in Scripture or not and in what place it was to be found D. S. said he must first explain that Article of the Scripture for this method of proceeding was already sufficiently known and exposed he clearly saw the Snare they thought to bring him in and the advantages they would draw from it But it was the cause of the Church he was to defend which he hoped he was ready to seal with his Blood and was not to be given up for a Trick The meaning of the Sixth Article was That nothing must be Received or Imposed as an Article of Faith but what was either expresly contained in Scripture or to be deduced and proved from it by a clear consequence so that if in any Article of our Church which they rejected he should either shew it in the express words of Scripture or prove it by a clear consequence he performed all required in this Article If they would receive this and fix upon it as the meaning of the Article which certainly it was then he would go on to the proof of that other Article he had called in question M. W. said They must see the Article in express Scripture or at least in some places of Scripture which had been so interpreted by the Church the Councils or Fathers or any one Council or Father And he the rather pitched on this Article because he judged it the only Article in which all Protestants except the Lutherans were agreed D. S. said It had been the art of all the Hereticks from the Marcionites days to call for express words of Scripture It was well known the Arrians set up their rest on this that their Doctrine was not condemned by express words of Scripture but that this was still rejected by the Catholick Church and that Theodoret had written a Book on purpose to prove the unreasonableness of this Challenge therefore he desired they would not insist on that which every body must see was not fair dealing and that they would take the Sixth Article entirely and so go to see if the other Article could not be proved from Scripture though it were not contained in express words M. B. Added that all the Fathers writing against the Arrians brought their proofs of the Consubstantiality of the Son from the Scriptures though it was not contained in the express words of any place And the Arrian Council that rejected the words Equisubstantial and Consubstantial gives that for the reason that they were not in the Scripture And that in the Council of Ephesus S. Cyril brought in many propositions against the Nestorians with a vast collection of places of Scripture to prove them by and though the quotations from Scripture contained not those propositions in express words yet the Council was satisfied from them and condemned the Nestorians Therefore it was most unreasonable and against the practice of the Catholick Church to require express words of Scripture and that the Article was manifestly a disjunctive where we were to chuse whether of the two we would chuse either one or other S. P. T. said Or was not in the Article M. B. said Nor was a negative in a disjunctive proposition as Or was an affirmative and both came to the same meaning M. W. said That S. Austin charged the Heretick to read what he said in the Scripture M. B. said S. Austin could not make that a constant rule otherwise he must reject the Consubstantiality which he did so zealously assert though he might in disputing urge an Heretick with it on some other account D. S. said The Scripture was to deliver to us the revelation of God in matters necessary to Salvation but it was an unreasonable thing to demand proofs for a negative in it for if the Roman Church have set up many Doctrines as Articles of Faith without proof from the Scriptures we had cause enough to reject these if there was no clear proofs of them from Scripture but to require express words of Scripture for a negative was as unjust as if Mahomet had said the Christians had no reason to reject him because there was no place in Scripture that called him an Impostor Since then the Roman Church had set up the Doctrine of Transubstantiation and the sacrifice of the Mass without either express Scripture or good proofs from it their Church had good cause to reject these M. W. said The Article they desired to be satisfied in was if he understood any thing a positive Article and not a negative M. B. said The positive Article was that Christ was received in the Holy Sacrament but because they had as our Church judged brought in the Doctrine of the corporal presence without all reason the Church made that explanation to cast out the other so that upon the matter it was a negative He added that it was also unreasonable to ask any one place to prove a Doctrine by for the Fathers in their proceedings with the Arrians brought a great collection of places which gave light to one another and all concurred to prove the Article of Faith that was in controversy so if we brought such a consent of many places of Scripture as proved our Doctrine all being joined together we perform all that the Fathers thought themselves bound to do in the like case D.
S. then at great length told them The Church of Rome and the Church of England differed in many great and weighty points that we were come thither to see as these Gentlemen professed they desired if we could offer good reason for them to turn Protestants and as the Ladies professed a desire to be further established in the Doctrine of the Church of England In order to which none could think it a proper method to pick out some words in the obscure corner of an Article and call for express Scriptures for them But the fair and fit way was to examine whether the Church of England had not very good reason to separate from the Communion of the Church of Rome therefore since it was for truth in which ourSouls are so deeply concerned that we enquired he desired they would join issue to examine either the grounds on which the Church of England did separate from the Church of Rome or the authority by which she did it for if there was both good reason for it and if those who did it had a sufficient authority to do it then was the Church of England fully vindicated He did appeal to all that were present if in this offer he dealt not candidly and fairly and if all other ways were not shufling Which he pressed with great earnestness as that only which could satisfy all peoples consciences M. W. and S. P. T. said God forbid they should speak one word for the Church of Rome they understood the danger they should run by speaking to that D. S. said He hoped they looked on us as Men of more Conscience and Honesty than to make an ill use of any thing they might say for their Church that for himself he would die rather than be guilty of so base a thing the very thought whereof he abhorred M. B. said That though the Law condemned the endeavouring to reconcile any to the Church of Rome yet their justifying their Church when put to it especially to Divines in order to satisfaction which they professed they desired could by no colour be made a transgression And that as we engaged our Faith to make no ill use of what should be said so if they doubted any of the other Company it was S. P. his house and he might order it to be more private if he pleased S. P. Said he was only to speak to the Articles of the Church of England and desired express words for that Article Upon this followed a long wrangling the same things were said over and over again In the end M. W. said they had not asked where that Article was read that they doubted of it for they knew it was in no place of Scripture in which they were the more confirmed because none was so much as alledged D. S. said Upon the terms in the 6. Article he was ready to undertake the 28. Article to prove it clearly by Scripture M. W. said But there must be no interpretations admitted of M. B. said It was certain the Scriptures were not given to us as Pariots are taught to speak words we were endued with a faculty of understanding and we must understand somewhat by every place of Scripture Now the true meaning of the words being that which God would teach us in the Scriptures which way soever that were expressed is the Doctrine revealed there and it was to be considered that the Scriptures were at first delivered to plain and simple men to be made use of by all without distinction therefore we were to look unto them as they did and so S. Paul wrote his Epistles which were the hardest pieces of the New Testament to all in the Churches to whom he directed them M. W. said The Epistles were written upon emergent occasions and so were for the use of the Churches to whom they were directed D. S. said Though they were written upon emergent occasions yet they were written by Divine inspiration and as a Rule of Faith not only for those Churches but for all Christians But as M. W. was a going to speak M. C. came in upon which we all rose up till he was set So being set after some Civilities D. S. resumed a little what they were about and told they were calling for express Scriptures to prove the Articles of our Church by M. C. said If we be about Scriptures where is the Judge that shall pass the Sentence who expounds them aright otherwise the contest must be endless D. S. said He had proposed a matter that was indeed of weight therefore he would first shew that these of the Church of Rome were not provided of a sufficient or fit Judge of Controversies M. C. said That was not the thing they were to speak to for though we destroyed the Church of Rome all to nought yet except we built up our own we did nothing therefore he desired to hear what we had to say for our own Church he was not to meddle with the Church of Rome but to hear and be instructed if he could see reason to be of the Church of England for may be it might be somewhat in his way D. S. said He would not examine if it would be in his way to be of the Church of England or not but did heartily acknowledge with great civility that he was a very fair dealer in what he had proposed and that now he had indeed set us in the right way and the truth was we were extream glad to get out of the wrangling we had been in before and to come to treat of matters that were of importance So after some civilities had passed on both sides D. S. said The Bishops and Pastors of the Church of England finding a great many abuses crept into the Church particularly in the worship of God which was chiefly insisted upon in the reformation such as the images of the blessed Trinity the worship whereof was set up and encouraged The turning the devotions we ought to offer only to Christ to the blessed Virgin the Angels and Saints That the worship of God was in an unknown tongue That the Chalice was taken from the people against the express words of the institution That Transubstantiation and the sacrifice of the Mass were set up That our Church had good reason to judge these to be heinous abuses which did much endanger the Salvation of Souls therefore being the Pastors of the Church and being assisted in it by the Civil powers they had both good reason and sufficient authority to reform the Church from these abuses and he left it to M. C. to chuse on which of these particulars they should discourse M. B. said The Bishops and Pastors having the charge of Souls were bound to feed the flock with sound Doctrine according to the word of God So S. Paul when he charged the Bishops of Ephesus to feed the flock and to guard against Wolves or Seducers he commends them to the word of Gods Grace which is the Gospel
said Now we are got into a contest of 1700. years story but I know not when we shall get out of it He confessed there was no Prescription against a divine right and acknowledged all Bishops were alike in their Order but not in their Jurisdiction as the Bishop of Oxford was a Bishop as well as the Archbishop of Canterbury and yet he was inferiour to him in Jurisdiction But desired to know what was in the Popes authority that was so intolerable D. S. said That he should only debate about the Popes Jurisdiction and to his question for one Particular That from the days of Pope Paschal the II. all Bishops swear obedience to the Pope was intolerable bondage M. C. said Then will you acknowledg that before that Oath was imposed the Pope was to be acknowledged adding That let us fix a time wherein we say the Pope began to usurp beyond his just authority and he would prove by Protestant Writers that he had as great power before that time M. B. said Whatever his Patriarchal power was he had none over Britain For it was plain we had not the Christian faith from the Roman Church as appeared from the very story of Austin the Monk S. P. T. said Did not King Lucius write to the Pope upon his receiving the Christian Faith M. C. said he would wave all that and ask if the Church of England could justifie her for saking the obedience of the Bishop of Rome when all the rest of the Christian world submitted to it D. S. said He wondred to hear him speak so Were not the Greek the Armenian the Nestorian and the Abissen Churches separated from the Roman M. C. said He wondred as much to hear him reckon the Nestorians among the Churches that were condemned Hereticks D. S. said It would be hard for him to prove them Nestorians M. C. asked why he called them so then D. S. answered because they were generally best known by that name M. W. said Did not the Greek Church reconcile it self to the Roman Church at the Council of Florence D. S. said Some of their Bishops were partly trepanned partly threatned into it but their Church disowned them and it both and continues to do so to this day M. W. said Many of the Greek Church were daily reconciled to the Church of Rome and many of the other Eastern Bishops had sent their obedience to the Pope D. S. said They knew there was enough to be said to these things that these arts were now pretty well discovered But he insisted to prove the Usurpations of Rome were such as were inconsistent with the supreme civil authorityâ— and shewed the oath in the Pontifiâ—â—le by which for instance If the Pope command a Bishop to go to Rome and his King forbid it he must obey the Pope and disobey the King M. C. said These things were very consistent that the King should be supream in Civils and the Pope in Spirituals So that if the Pope commanded a thing that were Civil the King must be obeyed and not he M. B. said By the words of the Oath the Bishops were to receive and help the Popes Legates both in coming and going Now suppose the King declared it Treason to receive the Legate yet in this case the Bishops are sworn to obey the Pope and this was a case that fell out often D. S. instanced the case of Queen Mary M. C. said If he comes with false Mandates he is not a Legate M. B. said Suppose as has fallen out an hundred times he comes with Bulls and well warranted but the King will not suffer him to enter his Dominions here the Bishops must either be Traitors or perjured M. C. said All these things must be understood to have tacite conditions in them though they be not expressed and gave a Simile which I have forgot D. S. said It was plain Paschal the second devised that Oath on purpose to cut off all those reserves of their duty to their Princes And therefore the words are so full and large that no Oath of Allegiance was ever conceived in more express terms M. B. said It was yet more plain from the words that preceed that clause about Legates that they shall be on no Counsel to do the Pope any injury and shall reveal none of his secrets By which a provision was clearly made that if the Pope did engage in any quarrel or war with any Prince the Bishops were to assist the Popes as their sworn subjects and to be faithful spies and correspondents to give intelligence As he was saying this L. T. did whisper D. S. who presently told the company that the Ladies at whose desire we came thither entreated we would speak to things that concerned them more and discourse on the grounds on which the reformation proceeded and therefore since he had before named some of the most considerable he desired we might discourse about some of these M. C. said Name any thing in the Roman Church that is expresly contrary to Scriptures but bring not your expositions of Scripture to prove it by for we will not admit of these M. B. asked if they did not acknowledge that it was only by the mediation of Christ that our sins were pardoned and eternal life given to us M. C. answered no question of it at all M. B. said Then have we not good reason to depart from that Church that in an office of so great and daily use as was the absolution of penitents after the words of absolution enjoins the following prayer to be used which he read out of their ritual The passion of our Lord Jesus Christ the merits of the blessed Virgin Mary and of all the Saints and whatever good thou hast done or evil thou hast suffered be to thee for the remission of sins the encrease of Grace and the reward of eternal life from whence it plainly follows that their Church ascribes the pardon of all sins and the eternal Salvation of their penitents to the merits of the blessed Virgin and the Saints as well as the passion of our blessed Saviour M. C. said Here was a very severe charge put in against their Church without any reason for they believed that our sins are pardoned and our Souls are saved only by the merits of Jesus Christ but that several things may concur in several orders or wayes to produce the same effects So although we are pardoned and saved only through Christ yet without Holiness we shall never see God we must also suffer whatever crosses he tries us with So that these in another sense procure the pardon of our sins and eternal Salvation Thus in like manner the prayers of the blessed Virgin and the Saints are great helps to our obtaining these therefore though these be all joined together in the same prayer yet it was an unjust charge on their Church to say they make them equal in their value or efficiency M. B. said The thing he had chiefly
And in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus wherein the rules of the Pastoral charge are set down he commands Timothy and in him all Bishops and Pastors to hold fast the Doctrine and form of sound words which he had delivered and tells him the Scriptures were able to make the man of God perfect If then the Bishops and Pastors of this Church found it corrupted by any unsound Doctrine or Idolatrous worship they were by the Law of God and the charge of Souls for which they were accountable obliged to throw out these corruptions and reform the Church and this the rather that the first Question proposed in the Consecration of a Bishop as it is in the Pontifical is Wilt thou teach these things which thou understandest to be in the Scripture to the people committed to thee both by thy Doctrine and Example To which he answers I will M. C. said We had now offered as much as would be the subject of many dayes discourse and he had but few minutes to spare therefore he desired to be informed what authority those Bishops had to judge in matters which they found not only in this Church but in all Churches round about them should they have presumed to judge in these matters D. S. said It had been frequently the practice of many Nations and Provinces to meet in Provincial Synods and reform abuses For which he offered to prove they had both authority and president But much more in some instances he was ready to shew of particulars that had been defined by General Councils which they only applied to their circumstances and this was never questioned but Provincial Synods might do M. C. desired to be first satisfied by what Authority they could cut themselves off from the obedience of the See of Rome in King Henry the VIII his days The Pope then was looked on as the Monarch of the Christian world in Spirituals and all Christendom was one Church under One Head and had been so for many Ages So that if a Province or Country would cut themselves from the Body of this Nation for instance Wales that had once distinct Princes and say we acknowledge no right William the Conquerour had so that we reject the Authority of those descended from him they might have the same plea which this our Church had For the day before that Act of Parliament did pass after the 20. of Henry the VIII the Pope had the Authority in Spirituals and they were his Subjects in Spirituals Therefore their Declaring he had none could not take his Authority from him no more than the Long Parliament had right to declare by an Act that the Soveraign Power was in the Peoples hands in pursuance of which they cut off the Kings head D. S. said The first General Councils as they established the Patriarchal Power so the Priviledges of several Churches were preserved entire to them as in the case of Cyprus that the British Churches were not within the Patriarchal Jurisdiction of Rome that afterwards the Bishops of Rome striking in with the Interests of the Princes of Europe and watching and improving all advantages got up by degrees through many ages into that height of Authority which they managed as ill as they unjustly acquired it and particularly in England where from King William the Conqueror his days as their Illegal and oppressive Impositions were a constant Grievance to the People so our Princes and Parliaments were ever put to strugle with them But to affront their Authority Thomas Becket who was a Traitour to the Law must be made a Saint and a day kept for him in which they were to pray to God for mercy through his merits It continuing thus for several Ages in the end a vigorous Prince arises who was resolved to assert his own Authority And he looking into the Oaths the Bishops swore to the Pope they were all found in a Praemunire by them Then did the whole Nation agree to assert their own freedom and their Kings Authority And 't was considerable that those very Bishops that in Quâ—en Marys days did most cruelly persecute those of the Church of England and advance the Interests of Rome were the most zealous Assertors and Defenders of what was done by King Henry the VIII Therefore the Popes power in England being founded onâ—â—oâ— just Title and being managed with so much oppression there was both a full Authority and a great deal of reason for rejecting it And if the Major Generals who had their Authority from Cromwell might yet have declared for the King who had the true title and against the Usurper so the Bishops though they had sworn to the Pope yet that being contrary to the Allegiance they ow'd the King ought to have asserted the Kings Authority and rejected the Pope's M. B. said It seemed M. C. founded the Popes Right to the Authority he had in England chiefly upon Prescrip said to tion But there were two things to be that First that no prescription runs against a divine right In the clearing of titles among men Prescription is in some cases a good title But if by the Laws of God the Civil powers have a supream Authority over their subjects then 〈◊〉 prescription whatsoever can void this Besides the Bishops having full Authority and Jurisdiction this could not be bounded or limited by any obedience the Pope claimed from them Further there can be no prescription in this case where the Usurpation has been all along contested and opposed We were ready to prove that in the first Ages all Bishops were accounted brethren Colleagues and fellow-Bishops with the Bishop of Rome That afterwards as he was declared Patriarch of the West so the other Patriarchs were equal in authority to him in their several Patriarchates That Britain was no part of his Patriarchate but an exempt as Cyprus was That his Power as Patriarch was only for receiving Appeals or calling Synods and did not at all encroach on the jurisdiction of other Bishops in their Sees and that the Bishops in his Patriarchate did think they might separate from him A famous Instance of this was in the sixth Century when the Question was about the tria Capitula for which the Western Bishops did generally stand and Pope Vigilius wrote in defence of them but Iustinian the Emperour having drawn him to Constantinople he consented with the Fifth Council to the condemning them Upon which at his return many of the Western Bishops did separate from him And as Victor Bishop of Tunes tells us who lived at that time That Pope was Synodically excommunicated by the Bishops of Africk It is true in the eighth Century the Decretal Epistles being forged his pretensions were much advanced yet his universal jurisdiction was contested in all Ages as might be proved from the known Instance of Hincmar Bishop of Rheims and many more Therefore how strong soever the Argument from Prescription may be in Civil things it is of no force here M. C.
good reason to reform from that errour So the Church of Rome will ackowledge that the Greek Church or our Church ought to forsake their present Doctrines though they have been long received Fourthly No later Definitions of Councils or Fathers ought to derogate from the ancienter Decrees of Councils or opinions of the Fathers otherwise the Arrians had reason to have justified their submitting to the Councils of Sirmium Arimini and Millan and rejecting that of Nice therefore we ought in the first place to consider the Decrees and opinions of the most Primitive antiquity Fifthly No succession of Bishops how clear so ever in its descent from the Apostles can secure a Church from errour Which the Church of Rome must acknowledge since they can neither deny the succession of the Greek Church nor of the Church of England Sixthly If any Church continues so hardned in their errours that they break Communion with another Church for reforming the guilt of this breach must lie at their door who are both in the Errour and first reject the other and refuse to reform or communicate with other Churches Upon every one of these particulars and they all set together compleat the plea for the Church of England I am willing to joyn Issue and shew they are not only true in themselves but must be also acknowledged by the Principles of the Church of Rome So that if the grounds of controversy on which our Reformation did proceed were good and justifiable it is most unreasonable to say our Church had not good right and authority to make it It can be made appear that for above two hundred years before the Reformation there were general complaints among all sorts of pesons both tho subtle Schoolmen and devout Contemplatives both Ecclesiasticks and Laicks did complain of the corruptions of the Church and called aloud for a Reformation both of Faith and Manners even the Council of Pisa a little before Luthers days did Decree There should be a Reformation both of Faith and Manners and that both of the Head and Members But all these complaints turned to nothing abuses grew daily the interests of the Nephews and other corrupt intrigues of the Court of Rome always obstructing good motions and cherishing ill Customs for they brought the more Grist to their Mill. When a Reformation was first called for in Germany instead of complying with so just a desire all that the Court of Rome thought on was how to suppress these complaints and destroy those who made them In end when great Commotions were like to follow by the vast multitudes of those who concurred in this desire of Reforming a Council was called after the Popes had frequently prejudged in the matter and Pope Leo had with great frankness condemned most of Luthers opinions From that Council no good could reasonably be expected for the Popes had already engaged so deep in the quarrel that there was no retreating and they ordered the matter so that nothing could be done but what they had a mind to all the Bishops were at their Consecration their sworn vassals nothing could be brought into the Council without the Legates had proposed it And when any good motions were made by the Bishops of Spain or Germany they had so many poor Italian Bishops kept there on the Popes charges that they were always masters of the vote for before they would hold a Session about any thing they had so canvassed it in the Congregations that nothing was so much as put to the hazard All these things appear even from Cardinal Pallavicini's History of that Council While this Council was sitting and some years before many of this Church were convinced of these corruptions and that they could not with a good Conscience joyn any longer in a worship so corrupted yet they were satisfied to know the truth themselves and to instruct others privately in it but formed no separated Church waiting for what issue God in his Providence might bring about But with what violence and cruelty their enemies who were generally those of the Clergy pursued them is well enough known Nor shall I repeat any thing of it lest it might be thought an invidious aggravating of things that are past But at length by the death of King Henry the eighth the Government fell in the hands of persons well affected to the Reformation It is not material what their true motives were for Jehu did a good work when he destroyed the Idolatry of Baal though neither his motives nor method of doing it are justifiable nor is it to the purpose to examine how those Bishops that reformed could have complied before with the corruptions of the Roman Church and received orders from them Meletius and Felix were placed by the Arrians the one at Antioch in the room of Eustathius the other at Rome in Liberius his room who were both banished for the Faith and yet both these were afterwards great Defenders of the truth and Felix was a martyr for it against these very Hereticks with whom they complied in the beginning So whatever mixture of carnal ends might be in any of the Secular men or what allay of humane infirmity and fear might have been in any of the Ecclesiasticks that can be no prejudice to the cause for men are always men and the power of God does often appear most eminently when there is least cause to admire the instruments he makes use of But in that juncture of affairs the Bishops and Clergy of this Church seeing great and manifest corruptions in it and it being apparent that the Church of Rome would consent to no reformation to any good purpose were obliged to reform and having the Authority of King and Parliament concurring they had betrayed their consciences and the charge of Souls for which they stood engaged and were to answer at the great day if they had dallied longer and not warned the people of their danger and made use of the inclinations of the Civil Powers for carrying on so good a work And it is the lasting glory of the reformation that when they saw the Heir of the Crown was inflexibly united to the Church of Rome they proceeded not to extream courses against her for what a few wrought on by the ambition of the Duke of Northumberland were got to do was neither the deed of the Nation nor of the Church since the Representatives of neither concurred in it But the Nation did receive the righteous Heir and then was our Church crowned with the highest glory it could have desired many of the Bishops who had been most active in the Reformation sealing it with their blood and in death giving such evident proofs of holy and Christian constancy that they may be justly matched with the most Glorious Martyrs of the Primitive Church Then did both these Churches appear in their true colours That of Rome weltring in the blood of the Saints and insatiately drinking it up and our Church bearing the Cross of