of God and where there is a Covenant there is the people of God c. Answ This assertion seems to us very strange to fall from that reverend and learned Author being a foundation of many inconveniences and absuâ—…dities and tending to overthrow the order of Christ in his visible Churches For First if this be so that every Society in Covenant with God be the Church of God then men may set up as many Forms of visible Churches as they please if the people be in Covenant with God visibly at least the Archdeacon with his Commissary Priests Churchwardens c. being in Covenant with God are a true Church So the Diocesan Bishop in his Cathedrall with his Clergy or any such Assembly are the Church of God or what other form-soever men will devise may goe for the Church of God and to them belong the seals and you may as wel say discipline and all Ordinances of God if they bee the true Church Secondly upon this ground every company of godly Christistians in Covenant with God meeting in fasting prayer c. are the true Church of God and to them as such the sealâ—… belong and sending for a true Minister of the Catholick church they may have Baptism and the Lords-supper administred and by the same reason discipline also yea if but two or three as you say being in Covenant with God meet together in their travail at an Inne c. are the Church of God especially every Christian family iâ—… the Church for they professe the entire faith joyn daily in prayer and thanksgiving receive the truth of God to dwell amongst them are in some measure obedient unto the commandâ—… of God and in Covenant with God And therefore being the Church of God why not call for a Minister and have seals ordinarily dispensed to them Thirdly upon this ground a company of Christian Women in Covenant with God are a Church to whom the seal â—… belong and who sees not how all orderly dispensation of Gods Ordinances and the whole order of visible Churches in the Gospel would be overturned by this assertion We verily beleeve this Author was far from admitting these things but the Position it self will unavoidably enforce the same Neither can we impute this assertion to any inconsideratenesse through heat of disputation For if any shall maintain the personall Covenant of people with God to be sufficient to constitute visible Churches and not admit a necessity of a more publick or generall Covenant explicite or implicite whereby a company of Christianâ—… are made one people joyning in one Congregation to worship God in his holy Ordinances and walk together in his wayâ—… they must of necessity acknowledge every Society in Covenant with God to be a Church as here is said and therefore admit all forms of Churches and all Families c. to be Churches and so bring in the confution objected which we desire may well bee considered All your Arguments stand upon that ground of personall covenant with God which is too weak to bear up that conclusion to make all such visible Churches to whom the seals belong as the absurd consequences thereof shew These Reasons and the Scriptures in the margent some of them will prove them fit matter for visible Churches and that they have a remote right unto the seals of that Covenant which we grant but they will not prove every Society of such to bee true Churches having immediate right to have the seals dispensed unto them Reply Fifthly If it be graâ—…ted that the seals are the prerogative of particular visible Churches known and approved Christians amongst us are members of such Churches and so to be esteemed amongst you c. and every visible beleever professing the pure entire faith admitted to the right and lawfull participation of the sacraments is a visible member of the true Church if he hath neither renounced the Society nor deserved justly to be cast out by excommunication or Church censure c. And if known and approved Christians members of our Churches comming to new-New-England shall desire to have their children baptized or themselves admitted to the Lords-supper before they be set members amongst you we desire to know upon what grounds from God you can deny them if you acknowledge our Churches Ministery and Sacraments to be true as you professe and the members of the Church be known and approved orderly recommended unto you Answ We grant all this here expressed for the substance however some reasons spoken unto before intermixed we passe over and to your question we frame a ready answer from your own words For first you grant that if such members have renounced that Society wherein they did partake of the seals they are not to be reputed members of it and this is generally the case of all approved Christians among us who though they doe not so renounce the Churches that bare them and gave them suck as no true Churches yet seeing they were grown so corrupt many ways as they could neither enjoy some needfull Ordinances nor partake in those they had without sin they have therefore renounced and forsaken all further communion with them and membership in them and so by your own grant neither themselves nor the Churches here can take them as members of your Churches to receive them under that respect Secondly if any yet have not so far renounced those Churches they belonged unto yet they are not orderly recommended unto us which also you grant ought to be and indeed otherwise we may oft receive persons justly excommunicate or such as are no members of Churches any where or otherwise under great offence as frequent examples amongst our selves doe sheâ—…e though the Church may think well of such as offer themselves What else follows in this Paragraph is the same in substance and much of it in words also that we have answered before and therefore we passe it over and that of the Jewish Church we shall speak to after As for that you desire leave to set down and us to examine what may be objected against that we affirmed That the distinct Churches named in the New Testament were Congregationall Societies we shall consider as followeth Reply The number of beleevers were so great in some Cities that they could not conveniently meet in one place as one Assembly to worship God according to his will and for their edifying as in Samaria Jerusalem Antioch Ephesus Answ Although we expected not Objections in this case against the currant Tenent of our godly Reformers Baine Parker c. with whom we joyn and we might refer you to them for answer to this beaten Objection of the Prelates yet we are not unwilling to examine what is said in this digression The Argument stands thus If the number of beleevers were so great in some City as could not meet in one Assembly to edification then there was some other form of a Church besides Congregationall But so it was in Samaria c. Answ
A DEFENCE OF THE Answer made unto the Nine Questions or Positions sent from New-England Against the REPLY THERETO BY That Reverend servant of Christ Mr. JOHN BALL Entituled A Tryall of the New Church-way in New-England and in Old Wherin beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning Liturgies Power of the Keys matter of the visible Church c. is more largely handled that controversie concerning the Catholick visible Church tending to cleare up the Old-way of Christ in new-New-England Churches By Iohn Allin Pastor of Dedham Tho. Shepard Pastor of Cambridge in new-New-England Veritas nihil crubescit praeterquam abscondi Tertul. Sua silentia amat Spiritus per quae nobis illabitur seque insinuat cupidis non gloriae sed cognoscendae veritatis Melanct. Let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his Brethren Deut. 33.16 London Printed by R. Cotes for Andrew Crooke and are to be sold at the Green Dragon in Pauls Church-yard 1648. The Preface to the Reader IT was the profession of the Lord Jesus before Pilate when he questioned with him about his Kingdome John 18.37 That for this cause he was born and came into the world to beare witnesse of the truth Many truths about the spirituall Kingdom of Christ hath he imparted to us if therfore we be born into the world or sent into this Wildernesse to beare witnesse to his truth it is unto us reward sufficient that we should be witnesses thereunto even to the utmost parts of the Earth Wee confesse wee have been too slow in this service of Christ not having to this day set forth an unanimous Confession of that Form of wholsome words which is Preached received and professed in these Churches of the Lord Jesus and which we are not unmindfull of though our distances and other difficulties may delay the opportunity But this in the meane time we professe in generall That so farre as wee know there is the same blessed Spirit of Truth breathing in the Ministery of the Country the same Faith embraced and professed in the Churches which is generally received as the Orthodox Doctrine of the Gospel in the best reformed Churches and particularly by our godly learned Brethren of England and Scotland And though errours have sprung up among us and some are gone out from us that we feare were not of us yet wee have borne witnesse against them and by the blessing of God by the breath of Christ in the mouths of his servants they have been blasted Neither doe we understand that these Churches are accused of any errours about the saving truths of the Gospel and therefore we thought our selves not so much called of God to such a Confession at present as to cleare up to the world those Truths we professe about the kingdome and government of Christ in his Churches which is the great worke of this age and of this nick of time And yet here also we feare that we have been too slack for though it bee said VVee are the Volunteers such as cry up this way c. and so it seemes wee are apprehended to bee one cause of these present differences yet if things be well weighed we may seem rather to bee farre behinde in the duty that lyes upon us Indeed some briefe Answers sent over to some particular persons to satisfie Brethren what our practise is with some briefe touch of our reasons rather then to discâ—…sse those points have been printed by some without our knowledge or assent upon what grounds they best know And some short Treatises by some reverend Brethren have been published to declare their affectionate desires of the unanimous endevours of all our deare Brethren for a generall and holy Reformation But what hath been said or done that either may justly offend the minds of the godly provoke their spirits disunite their affections or hinder a godly Reformation Yea wee have been too slow to cleare our Doctrine and practise from the many objections harsh interpretations and manifold criminations cast upon the same wherein wee feare our lothnesse to intermeddle in these Controversies for feare of making the breach wider amongst Brethren and our desire rather to attend what light we might receive from others in these points wherein wee professe our selves seekers after the truth have made us guilty of neglect in this our duty But now we see our selves pressed hereto by a necessity of justifying our wayes against the many aspersions cast upon them as well as against the Reasons used against them for wee perceive by the first Letter of our Brethren how the with-drawing of Christians from the Liturgy was imputed to us and by this Reply both in the Epistle and divers passages wee cannot but see what apprehensions are raised of us yea many are apt to think that if we had said nothing yet our very act in forsaking the Churches of God in our deare native Country and the Cause of Christ there together with the practise of these Churches thought to bee so different from the reformed Churches have been not onely a great weakening to the hands of the Godly that have stood by the Cause of Christ but also have caused great disturbance to the Reformation in hand To which much might be said but that wee should exceed the bounds of an Epistle Yet let us intreat all the Godly wise to consider and look back upon the-season of this great enterprise undertaken by us and the manner of our proceedings in it with the admirable workings of Gods Providence first and last about it and we think though we were silent they may easily satisfie themselves whether this was of God or men a sinfull neglect of the Cause of Christ or a manifest attestation to the truth by open profession against Corruptions of Worship in use and for the necessity of reformation of the Church and that confirmed by no small degree of sufferings for the same For was it not a time when humane Worship and inventions were growne to such an intolerable height that the consciences of Gods saints and servants inlightened in the truth could no longer bear them was not the power of the tyrannicall Prelates so great that like a strong Current carryed all down streame before it what ever was from the law or otherwise set in their way Did not the hearts of men generally faile them Where was the people to bee found that would cleave to their godly Ministers in their sufferings but rather thought it their discretion to provide for their owne quiet and safety Yea when some freely in zeale of the Truth preached or professed against the corruptions of the times did not some take offence at it judge it rashnesse and to bee against all rules of discretion who since are ready to censure us for deserting the Cause Many then thought it is an evill time the prudent shall hold their peace and might wee not say this is not
consideration and to the blessing of God who onely can incline the hearts of men to attend to any thing of God set before them though wee bee the meanest and weakest of many to take upon us thus to speake to our deare Country-men yet through the grace of Christ who put us into the Ministery we have bestowed a great part of our labour in these parts neither we hope altogether in vaine which makes us somewhat the more engaged and encouraged to write as we doe And now having thus farre in this Epistle and in the Booke following testified our love to the truth and desires of the peace unity reformation and prosperity of our beloved England and the Churches of God therein wee commend both to the consideration of the Reader and all to the grace and blessing of Christ Jesus and rest From new-New-England Novemb. 28. 1645. THO. ALLIN THO. SHEPARD ADVERTISEMENTS TO THE READER TO the Epistle of the Author of this Reply wee say nothing because it savours for the most part of love and desire of unity which we thankfully acknowledge onely we cannot but take notice of two passages 1 A complaint made against some standing affected New-England ward who have carryed it so as if a chiefe part of holinesse consisted in separation and that therefore some have separated from all private and publique communion there others from all publique but not from private others from the Sacraments onely allowing publique communion otherwise To which wee answer that as the Church fell by degrees into universall pollution by the Apostacy foretold to bee under the Man of Sin so by degrees it recovers it out of it againe If therefore separation reach no farther then separation from sinnes and such sinnes of Churches wherein our selves in joyning with them must bee involved wee suppose such separation all due respect and love reserved and professed to the Churches themselves cannot justly bee accounted unwarrantable and 't is the profession of the Author in his Epistle to plead for communion with the Churches of Christ no farther then they hold communion with Christ If any transgresse these bounds either in respect of private or publique communion in England wee must professe openly that if any mourn for it wee are or would bee companions with them in that griefe Whose heart bleeds not to see Gods flock scattered and needlesse rents made that scarce Truth or errour can now adayes bee received but it is maintained in a way of Schisme directly contrary to the gathering and uniting Spirit of Jesus Christ A wide Conscience calls evill good and therefore can communicate with any evill a strait Conscience cals good evill as Gerson observes and therefore can readily separate even from that which is good When rash and sudden men are grown masters of their Consciences it troubles not them from whom they divide nor whither they run in separate wayes when weak yet godly men are under the tendernesse yet much darknesse of Conscience being very timorous of wayes that are evill grow many times shy at least in simplicity are led from wayes that afterward are found to be lawfull and good 'T is the usuall misery of English spirits either to spin the Spiders web and swallow down all corruptions in Churches or so to breake downe the gap in forsaking corruptions utterly to abandon the Churches themselves The wine of causelesse separation hath a spirit in it if God graciously prevent not that hurries men headlong to strange distances that in separating from publique they separate from private in separating from corrupt Churches as no Churches they separate from the purest even those of their own in separating from pollutions of Gods ordinances at last they fall to the storming of some if not to the utter renouncing of all the Ordinances themselves we mourne wee say for such evills and could with bended knees desire our deare Countrey-men to consider whether this bee the Spirit of Christ Jesus that so carries them to reject them whom the Lord Jesus hath not yet wholly forsaken and not rather with one heart and with bowells of compassion if any liberty can bee procured to study how to heale the bleeding breaches and manifold evills of sick and sinfull England that in their owne recovery from pollutions the whole may arise and share alike with them therein tolerating with all long-suffering many things amisse mourning daily after the Lord till such times come wherein he wil give his people his ordinances not only in purity but also in power when the Lord shall be one and his name one Zach. 14.9 over all the earth As for our selves wee look not upon our departure to these parts to be a separation rigidly taken but a lawfull secession or a heavenly translation from corrupt to more pure Churches by the hand of our God and how far we allow of separation the ensuing Treatise will declare 2 The second is That we dissent one from another as much as others from us and perhaps the lesser part of us Answ We confesse we know but little and that but in part and therefore if we should say that in some things we did not dissent we should not speak the truth nor say that we were sinfull men yet this we must speak to his praise whose we are and whom we serve with our spirits in the Gospel of his Son that although Satan hath been oft busie to make breaches among us yet the Ministers of Christ have been hitherto generally if not all of one heart and mind in the maine and principall things of his Kingdom amongst us and which is observed by many where ever differences are sown yet the Ministers never disagree and that although some differences have and doe arise before their convening together yet they never yet met but grace hath over-wrestled corruption peace trouble and truth errour and so have most sweetly accorded in one the thoughts of which Christ-like peaceablenesse of spirit and love as it oft sweetens many other sorrows so we desire to bee spared herein and that this our crowne may not bee taken from us by such passages suggesting great differences as these be Now for the Reply it self we desire the Reader to consider that we had neither time nor Bookes reaâ—…y at hand to consider some of the quotations made in 〈◊〉 argent and therfore being such testimonies 〈◊〉 cast not the ballance one way or another we have passed most of them by with silence It had also been easie for us to have Analysed more orderly the words of the Reply then as they are set downe but because we would not doe the least wrong we have set them down as we finde them in the Book not every passage for that were needlesse but those things wherein there seemes to bee any observable matter of dispute between us nor are we conscious of doing the Author the least wrong in setting down his own words as hereafter you find them We confesse that in sundry of our
c. yet should leave our accommodations and comforts should forsake our dearest relations Parents brethren Sisters Christian friends and acquaintances over looke all the dangers and difficulties of the vast Seas the thought whereof was a terrour to many and all this to go to a Wildernesse where wee could forecast nothing but care and temptations onely in hopes of enjoying Christ in his Ordinances in the fellowship of his people was this from a stupid senslesnesse or desperate carelesnesse what became of us or ours or want of naturall affections to our deare Countrey or nearest relations No surely with what bowells of compassion to our deare Countrey with what heart-breaking affections to our deare relations and Christian friends many of us at least came away the Lord is witnesse What shall we say of the singular Providence of God bringing so many Ship-loads of his people through so many dangers as upon Eagles wings with so much safety from yeare to yeare The fatherly care of our God in feeding and cloathing so many in a Wildernesse giving such healthfulnesse and great increase of posterity what shall wee say of the Worke it selfe of the kingdome of Christ and the form of a Common-wealth erected in a Wildernesse and in so few yeares brought to that state that scarce the like can bee seen in any of our English Colonies in the richest places of this America after many more years standing That the Lord hath carryed the spirits of so many of his people through all their toylsome labour wants difficulties losses c. with such a measure of chearfulnesse and contentation But above all wee must acknowledge the singular pity and mercies of our God that hath done all this and much more for a people so unworthy so sinfull that by murmurings of many unfaithfulnesse in promises oppressions and other evils which are found among us have so dishonoured his Majesty exposed his worke here to much scandall and obloquie for which wee have cause for ever to bee ashamed that the Lord should yet owne us and rather correct us in mercy then cast us off in displeasure and scatter us in this Wildernesse which gives us cause with Mich. 7. to say Who is a God like our God that pardoneth iniquities and passeth by the transgressions of the remnant of his heritage even because he delighteth in mercy Though we be a people of many weaknesses and wants yet wee acknowledge our God to have been to us a God of many mercies in respect of that sweet peace which he hath taken away from so many Nations yet continuing the same to us in respect also of that liberty wee have in Gods house the blessed Ministery of the Word the sweet unity and communion of Gods Churches and Ministers increase and multiplication of Churches Christian government in the Common-wealth and many other mercies wee enjoy but especially the gracious presence of Christ to many of our soules in all these But wee will not insist much upon this subject being perswaded it is in the consciences and hearts of many of our dear Countrey-men to thinke that we should be an object of love and tendernesse to that State and people by whose Laws and unkind usages we were driven out into a wildernesse rather then to bee judged as desertors of our Brethren and the Cause of Christ in hand with whom excuse us if we now speak plainly it had been far more easie unto many of us to have suffered then to have adventured hither upon the wildernesse sorrows wee expected to have met withall though we must confesse the Lord hath sweetned it beyond our thoughts and utmost expectations of prudent men But passing by this wee must desire the Reader to beare with us a little in removing that apprehension that wee are the great stumbling block in the way of Reformation which if it were true it had been better we had been driven so farre into this wildernesse as never to have been heard of more Concerning our affection to this blessed worke of a publique Reformation of the Nation in generall and the particular Churches or Congregations of the Land in particular as it is best knowne to God so wee thinke it is not unknowne to men not onely here by our daily prayers for it and sometime solemne seekings of God about it but also we have given some testimonies thereof both by private Letters and the publique motions of some of Gods eminent servants among us tending that way We conceive two things specially in our Doctrine and practise that may seem to bee stumbling blocks in the way of this publique Reformation which we shall here remove The first is our practise wherein wee seem so much to differ from the reformed Churches in receiving to our Churches onely visible Saints and beleevers This we doe freely confesse that our practise and judgement doe evidence this to all that we thinke reformation of the Church doth not onely consist in purging out corrupt Worship and setting up the true but also in purging the Churches from such profanenesse and sinfulnesse as is scandalous to the Gospel and makes the Lord weary of his owne Ordinances Esay 1. And wee doubt not but this was in the hearts of many if not most of Gods servants to desire a separation of the precious from the vile in the dispensing of Gods ordinances and if the charity of some be of larger extent herein then others this hinders not agreement in the maine This day hath discovered what kinde of people are to bee found every where in the Parishes of England Can light and darknesse Christ and Belial agree together Popish episcopall enemies and haters of all godlinesse and reformation cleave together in one Church of Christ with the Saints of God Yet neither our Doctrine nor practise do prescribe and limit the way of attaining this reformation whereby any should justly from our example stand off from concurring in such a publique worke It is true where there is no Church relation but a people are to begin a new constituting of Churches reformation is to be sought in the first Constitution This is our case But where corrupted Churches such as we conceive the Congregations of England generally to be are to be reformed there we conceive that such Congregations should bee called by able Ministers unto repentance for former evills and confessing and bewayling their sins renew a solemn Covenant with God to reform themselves and to submit unto the discipline of Christ By which meanes such as refuse so to doe exclude themselves and others by the severity of Discipline should bee purged out if falling into sinne they remaine impenitent in the same What some particular persons may have said or done contrary to this our profession wee cannot say nor doe we justifie but wee know nothing that hath come from us to the contrary to weaken the hands of godly reformers or to perswade the people to separate from the Congregations if by any meanes they might
attaine with toleration of what can be the reformation thereof with the liberty of Gods true worship therein If indeed that cannot bee obtained but men contradict and blaspheme them as Paul separated the Disciples so wee see no other remedy the faithfull have in such a case The second stumbling block may be our Doctrine and practise about Church-Government when wee give Discipline as well as other Ordinances to particular Churches not subjecting them to any Government out of themselves but onely to take the brotherly counsell and helpe one of another But how this should hinder a generall Reformation we see not for if every Church so reforme themselves as is aforesaid and have such Officers over them as the rule of the New Testament requires 1 Tim. 3. Tit. 2. wee need not feare to betrust the Church having such Officers with that power which we conceive Christ hath given to the same other Churches watching over them counselling and admonishing them in the Lord. But if there be not such a reformation of the Churches nor such guides set over them the power of the keyes in a Presbytery of such Pastors as may not be according to the rule may as much abuse them as a particular Church may doe and it may be to the hurt of many who would use them better in their own Congregations then they can in a Classis being over-voted there And we cannot conceive but both the care of reforming the matter of a Church and the recalling of the power of government to the Church tends much to further this worke of reformation no way to hinder the same And if wee might obtaine that of our deare Brethren which wee humbly crave viz. That our Doctrine and practise might be taken candidly according to our plaine meaning and declarations and not represented unto the World under such shapes and formes as make it seeme rigid all one with the most rigid Separatists Donatists Arminians Socinians c. we should hope that we shall goe for lovers and friends to a godly and generall Reformation not for disturbers of the same but the contrary dealing we meet with too too oft through the mistakes of Brethren This learned Author Mr. Ball though in the Epistle he desired us to rest assured that although he had conceived such thoughts of us as leaning to separation yet he would gladly receive every syllable from us that should dislodge such thoughts yet against our plaine profession sometime he will needs fasten the opinion of separation upon us and very frequently sets Mr. Robinson in a parallel with our opinions as if we generally went that way in those things which are well known to be the Doctrine of many of our godly and best reformers The Learned may plainly see how easie it had been for us and upon better grounds to have filled our margents with quotations out of Papists and Prelates as parallel with many passages of this Reply but we have purposely abstained from so doing that we might not cast any blur or provoke the spirits of brethren And seeing we are inforced to wipe off such aspersions we humbly desire our beloved Brethren whose learned labours wee honour to beare with us if we lightly touch this sore for wee confesse it brings blushing into our faces and sadnesse to our hearts to read so often such harsh imputations cast upon us which we cannot conceive but falling from such pens they breed a strange loathing of us in the stomachs of many that read bookes without serious examinations thereof First how oft doe wee meet with that imputation that wee make none members of a visible Church but such as are really saints and beleevers contrary to our frequent profession That visible saints that are such in judgement of charity are fit matter of the Church Secondly that we make a vocall Church Oath or Covenant the essentiall forme of a Church when as wee frequently acknowledge that this Covenant which constituteth a Church is either implicite or explicite and that Congregations in England are truly Churches having an implicite covenant and it is far from our practise to use any Oath in our Covenant and strange to us to read so many Pages against our Church Oath and swearing to a Covenant to make our courses horrid and too too rigorous Thirdly that we set up a popular government making the Elders of the Church no more but moderators c. and that Ministers recâ—…ive their power from the people are their servants and administer in their name as Mr. Ball and others object when we oft professe the contrary that all authoâ—…ity properly so called is in the hands of the Elders and the liberty of the people is to bee carryed in a way of subjection and obedience to them in the Lord neither doth it follow from any Doctrine of ours no more then from the ordination of Pastors by the Presbytery that they are their servants c. Fourthly that if a Congregation reject a Pastor for no fault they take both nomen esse the name and nature of a Pastor from him For this the Reader is referred to our Answer of the twenty fift Question of the thirty two questions sent unto us where nothing at all is said but reference is made to our answer to the nine questions amongst which the seventh being of this very point our answer is quite contrary to what is imputed to us Our words are these Concerning the Minister himselfe thus deposed c. we conceive though hee bee by them deprived of the execution of his Ministery amongst them yet untill hee accept of a call to another people hee still remaine a Minister of Christ in whose account hee hath true right of administration among the people Now if hee remaine a Minister of Christ and have true right to administer let any judge whether wee take away nomen or esse or that wee make Church censures worke ex opere operato clave errante as is also imputed to us Many such mistakes we finde but let these suffice to informe the Reader how wary hee had need bee in receiving such reports against brethren and this charity wee have cause the more earnestly to crave of all that they would reserve one eare to heare what their poore out-cast brethren can say for themselves because wee are placed at such a distance and disadvantage that oft-times it is not possible for us to take notice of such objections and return an answer under a yeare or almost two years whereby Satan hath a marvailous advantage to work strange thoughts and distastefull affections towards us and fasten them so deeply that hardly they will bee taken off again But thus it falleth out too too frequently that when Brethren otherwise deare to each other differ in their judgements and breake out to open contention about the same they are very apt to make the opinions of the contrary party as unpleasing and absurd to the judgement of others as may bee whence
bellum prodigorum the day of all the spend-thrifts and of all the vile persons of the Land to have their fingers in every mans coffers and their hands washed in the blood of them whom they have hated so soon as ever any of the Babylonish designes shall take their effect could wee wonder at it And is not this fulfilled in these times which wee wish may well bee laid to heart The second thing which wee conceive may chiefly hinder this closing is that point of Church government which concernes the power and liberties of particular Churches or Congregations and here wee must acknowledge the distance is too great For 〈◊〉 the one side â—…ee 〈◊〉 for either by Treatises or by the Directory for Worship that Congregations are acknowledged to bee compleat Churches especially standing among other Churches or that any power or liberty is given to them to administer Church censures no not so long as they administer rightly according to the rule but all such power is when indeed from the Churches though in words they are perswaded that it is to strengthen them and if this also come down from the Catholick Church and so to lesser Synods the greater part having power over the lesse as it were sure divino it will 〈◊〉 â—…ore at the liberties and power of particular Churches But what here to say of the distance on the other hand wee cannot tell wee see or read nothing but that our deare and honoured Brethren doe freely imbrace communion of Churches in consultation Synods for the brotherly helpe of each other and the weaker Churches yea and in a doctrinall way to declare the will of Christ and to threaten his judgements against such as shall refuse wholsome counsell and withdraw communion from such as wilfully refuse to heare what is propounded according to the minde of Christ And what should we heresay but on the bended knees of our soules intreat our reverend Brethren to consider what power any oâ—… many Churches can challenge 〈◊〉 another to require them to give up their right to them to rule in common if a sister Church purnished with Officers shall refuse the same or what rule bindeth the Churches of an hundred or any such civill division to come into such a combination with those Churches rather thâ—…n others fit but refusing Churches have just reasons to object against such Churches or their Officers We think the more voluntary and free such consociations are the better Here we shall be hold to propound this one thing viz. Why may not the fifth and sixth Articles of agreement publikely professed to the world in answer to the Prelaticall petition obtaine amongst our Brethren that it may appeare to the disappointment of their hopes that the Treaties being downe the agreement would be easie as is there said Viz. Ar. 5. Each particular Church hath her owne power and authority and the use and benefit of all the ordinances of Christ neither is there any thing to be done without the expresse or tacit consent of the Congregation in matters which are proper and peculiar to a particular Church whether in election or ordination of Ministers or in admitting or excommunicating of members Ar. 6. It is in many respects expedient both for the members of each Church whether Ministers or people and for the right governing and well-being of the particular Churches in a Nation professing Christian Religion that besides their particular Assemblies and Elderships they meet by their Commissioners Ministers and Elders in greater Assemblies that matters that concern all the Churches within their bounds respective may with common advice and consent be agreed upon for their good and edification And we hope the Lord may yet have such a mercy for England if the crying sins thereof bee not still impenitently against this glorious shining light of the Gospel persisted in which wee confesse is our greatest feare Godly Brethren wee hope would agree if Englands sins hinder not We confesse it was the saddest newes that this yeare came unto our eares that the Kingdome of Christ is hardly like to obtaine so much jealousie there is lest the discipline of Christ should crosse the licentiousnesse of this age yea that generally there is no more regard of the solemn Covenant especially in personall reformation then if it were never made that many reject the reformations they seemed to desire at the first These with other sad things come to our eares which sadden our spirits Oh England England our beloved England wilt thou not be made cleane when will it once bee wilt thou still return the Lord Jesus graciously striving with thee for to save thee such an unkind answer We will not have this man reigne over us hast thou not yet learned so much wisdom as to kisse the son no not now when he is angry and the sword in his hand That voice of God soundeth oft in our eares when wee thinke of England Put off thine ornaments that I may know what to doe unto thee but for ought we heare the pride of England did never so much testifie to their faces as now when sackcloth and ashes were more suitable The Lord humble the hearts of our deare Countrey-men or else wee feare the yoake of Christ will never be born and how the Lord Jesus will beare and indure that we tremble to think But what doe we thus to take upon us and let loose our Pen so far pardon we beseech you Christian Reader this seeming boldnesse it is our hearty affection to the peace and prosperity of our deare Countrey and the Saints of God in it that have drawn these things from us Say not what calling have these thus to admonish and censure us Censure we doe not that we would doe onely to our selves but faithfully to admonish and exhort in the Lord we hope we may presume Neither have we taken upon us this whole weighty worke of our owne minds but at the request and call of divers our reverend Brethren whose voice herein we looked upon as the voice of God nor have wee accepted that call out of any iust we have to contend or enter the lists of disputation with any Wee love the peace of the Churches and unity and concord with all our deare and godly Brethren too well to have any such ends And though wee are not unwilling to receive and consider any returne that may bee made and we hope with a mind to submit to the truth yet wee must professe Two things chiefly inclined us to undertake this worke First to cleare up such truths as we conceive to bee according to the minde of Christ which were obscured by this Reply Secondly and that especially hoping that what wee should write would tend rather to a peaceable healing of offences and differences then otherwise and therefore have presumed to Preface thus farre and so to present these our affectionate requests to our deare Brethren and Country-men which wee heartily recommend to their serious
Answers we have studied not onely to answer to the Reply but have taken in what sundry others godly learned object against our principles but without mentioning scarce any time their Names of which we are sparing for no other reason but because we honour the men from our very hearts and could wish though differently minded from us in some things as Melanchthon did in another the like case to live and die in their bosomes The name of this servant of Christ now asleep is an oyntment poured out and precious to us we could therefore have wisht it our portion to have answered the Booke without the least reflecting upon him but the necessity herein is unavoydable This onely we adde that whatever weaknesses may passe from us let them not bee imputed to those servants of Christ that set us on work and have wanted leisure to review what is here done Every one may not bee in all things of the same mind with us for they may meet us in the same end though they use not the same arguments or become followers of us in the same path yet we know wee are not alone in any thing but may safely say this much that what is here defended is generally acknowledged and received in these Churches of Christ A DEFENCE OF THE NINE POSITIONS CHAP. I. Concerning the Title WHereas it is called a new Church-way wee little expected that Brethren studious of Reformation who have been so exercised with imputations of novelty would have so readily and in the frontispice cast the same upon us who with them desire to walk in the first wayes of our Lord Jesus Christ and his holy Apostles but as in most substantiall points of Church-order wee goe along with the best reformed Churches so wee doubt not to make it good that wherein wee pressing after further Reformation seeme to differ from them yet wee build upon Scripture grounds acknowledged by many godly and Learned Reformers in our English and other reformed Churches which if the Lord have in mercy given us further â—…ight or rather opportunity to practise then they had let it not bee imputed to us for novelty A new edition of the old Church-way of godly Reformers in some things perhaps corrected and amended is no new Church-way or if it be thought the mending of some crooks in the old way make a new way wee answer with Junius in a case not unlike Vt cunque nâ—…vam esse videâ—…tur 〈◊〉 quaecunque sunt vetera fuerunt nova ac non propterâ—…a novâ—…tatâ—â— nomine vitiosa nisi forte novam pro renovatâ restitutâ accipitis quo sensuâ—… novam esse hanc viam agnosciâ—â—â— One thing more in the Title page the Reader is to take notice of that whereas it is said This Treatise of Mr. Ball was penned a little before his death and sent over 1637. it seemes to bee a mistake of the Printer for the Nine Questions themselves were sent over 1636 the answer returned 38 but miscarrying another was sent 39. from which time wee longingly expected a return but partly for the reason rendred in the Epistle and what else wee know not wee never in so many yeares received any till this printed Reply by a Friends meanes came occasionally to our hands 1644. Concerning the Epistle to the Reader Whereas the publishers of this Treatise impute unto us or some related to our Cause That we are the Volunteers such as cry up this way and forward to blow such things abroad in the world which pressed them to make this Controversie publique 1 Wee may truly professe before the world that our Epistle sent with our former Answer proceeded from a spirit of love and peace with an humble willingnesse to receive further light by the holy and just Animadversions of our reverend and belâ—â—â—d Brethren which wee earnestly expected as men 〈…〉 after the truth 2 That wee were altogether ignorant of the 〈◊〉 of that our Answer and in that it was published then was not without our utter dislike wee have neither sounded trumpet nor struck up drum to any if any such volunteers wee heartily grieve that there are any differences between Brethren much more that they should bee published most of all if before they bee privately debated and brought to some head by mutual consent are thought fit to be sent out to publique considerations 3 For our Brethren in England we know no reason to question the truth of that Apology of our Brother Mr. Thomas Weld in his answer to W. R. pag. 2. Obj. 3. Answ 1. where he professeth in the name of himselfe and others of our way a lothnesse to appeare in the case and that although they had Bookes of this subject ready for the Presse yet by joint consent they suppressed them happily to the detriment of the Cause being unwilling to blow a fire and whether they appeared in Pulpit or Presse without instigation and how sparingly hee appeales to all the godly to judge 4 Lastly wee desire our Brethren to consider the date of Mr. Ball his Booke printed for stinted Liturgies one chiefe part of this controversie and the Printed answer to the Nine questions and let that resolve the question who of us came first Volunteers into the field and if any through weaknesse or zeale without knowledge have been too clamorous to cry up New-England way with reproach to others wee desire the world to take notice that they have neither patent nor patterne from us so to doe who came not hither proudly to censure others but to reforme our owne CHAP. II. Qu. 1. That a stinted Forme of Prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull Reply THis Position cannot beare that meaning which you give it if you take it according to our minds and the plaine construction of the words We never questioned why you made not use of a Liturgie c. Answ Let our Answer bee viewed and it will appeare that wee had just cause to premise those distinctions of Formes of Prayer into private and publike and publike into such as are imposed by others or composed and used by Ministers themselves before their Sermons otherwise we must have involved such in the Position as wee doe not condemn Now if your generall thesis justly admit such limitation to publike imposed Formes where shall wee finde any set stinted imposed Liturgies but in Churches of the Papacy or Prelacy no Reformed Churches stinting or imposing their Formes of Prayer but leaving Ministers and people at much liberty Onely the English Liturgy therefore is such according to the plaine construction of the words 2 Concerning your minds in the Position wee deny not but you might intend to draw from us an approbation of stinted Liturgies in generall that so you might have to stay the separation of people from your Liturgy whereof you complaine but by that it appeares plainly what your chiefe scope and ayme was in the Position according unto which wee thought it most safe and pertinent for us to
the Church in neglecting them to goe immediately to the Classis and yet some of our Brethren at the requests of tender consciences might declare their judgement when no rule called them to write to their Pastors which perhaps were bitter persecutors or if better yet such as they had no knowledge of and if any by such writings did abstaine from the sacrament for such corruptions as their consciences would be defiled with no hinderance from us was in the way but that you might call them to account before the Church and convince and censure them if there were just cause which was the objection against Mr. P. in flying presently to the Classis CHAP. III. 2 Position That it is not lawfull to joyne in Prayer or receive the Sacraments where a stinted Liturgie is used Or as wee conceive your meaning to bee in this as in the former c. viz. where and when that stinted Liturgie is used Reply IF we mistake not your judgement and practise both you have born witnesse against both that you call the rigid separation and this more moderate also and wee humbly wish that the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long it is very strange if they take not great encouragement upon your grounds Answ If you will needs account not joyning in that stinted imposed Liturgy to bee a moderate separation wee must confesse we have witnessed against such separation yea not onely conformed to that corrupt Worship but also to divers of the Ceremonies thereof some of us with shame before the Lord may confesse it But we desire that may be no prejudice to the truth since discovered to us but wee have ever conceived that the separation witnessed against both by your selves and us have been such as to separate from the Churches of England as no true Churches the Ministery as no true Ministery their separations from corruptions in Doctrine and Worship their endeavour to enjoy all the ordinances of the Lord Jesus in purity if wee bee not mistaken your judgement and practise with ours have alwayes approved and the question now in hand is not about a new kinde of separation more moderate from the Churches and Ministery of England but whether the Liturgy of England be not indeed one of those corruptions in Worship which you and wee had need reject as well as the ceremonies and no longer conforme to the same And wee heartily wish that the growing endeavours of the godly after more purity of Worship and to bee purged from all the pollutions of the man of sinne bee not too rashly branded with the odium of separation and breach of peace and unity of the Church As for degenerating into the rigid separation wee think you need not feare it upon our principles no more then upon the common grounds of Non-conformists and you know what they inferre upon those principles now justly it concernes you to consider as well as 〈◊〉 but as it is truly observed in England it was the justification and pressing of ceremonies and other corruptions that drave many to separation not the endeavour of further Reformation so you may feare the too too much conformity of Ministers to humane impositions and justification of the Liturgie c. have and will more dangerously alienate godly minds from your Churches and Ministery and so drive to separation then all the principles and progresse of the godly in wayes of reformations and wee shall refer it to the judicious and common experience whether the discovery of the corrupt worship in the Liturgy or contrary conformity to it be the greater block of offence and strengthens the hands of the Separatists most which yet you after object unto us Wee suppose the Worthies of this renowned Parliament together with those of the reverend Assembly would not so soone have removed the whole frame and fabrick of this Book nor wholly stopped up this pit if building of battlements about it and keeping watchmen neare it to bid passengers take heed had been the readiest way to cure separation nor doe wee thinke that this reverend man of God would have been in more jealousie and feare of us if hee had considered how tenderly we returned our answer to the question then of those faithfull witnesses in Scotland who separated their lives into the hands of death rather then communicate in the use of this Booke and yet wee thinke they deserve a better place then to bee ranked so neare to the rigid separation notwithstanding for our selves we are heartily thankfull for what he humbly wisheth and for his jealousie over us so farre as it is godly but so farre as such wishes cast a cloud of evill suspition over us in the hearts of others as if we were going faster then we knew where to stay we wish humbly such words had been spared till some other time Concerning this distinction a letter of this subject is cited printed without the Authors knowledge that put a difference indeed between the reasons of the Separatists proper to them qua tales and other reasons used by himself common to others studious of Reformation To which we answer 1 That letter acknowledgeth no such distinction of separation rigid and moderate onely if you will a separation from Churches and separation from the sins and corruptions of Churches which latter is all we professe 2 Those Reasons which the letter ascribes to them qua tâ—…les will wee suppose bee found in their Books thus farre that the Prayers Preachings Sacraments c. are unlawfull because offered in a false Church by a false Ministery for the subjects of Antichrists kingdome That there should be no Separatists in the world because none it is said none plead against the Booke of Commonâ—…prayer as unlawfull because offered up in a false Church is strange to us that this learned Author should not read or observe the same exceeding frequently in the Separatists writings take but a taste in the first pages of Mr. Smith against Bernard in his parallels censures and observations his words pag. 9. are these Hee would prove that an erroneous constitution of a Church is a reall Idol and the prayers they offer with the prayers of the wicked comming from that false constitution are tainted with the Idolatry of that constitution And pag. 10. It is Idolatry to offer up service to God in a Church of a false constitution And pag. 13. Tell mee Mr. Bernard can there be a true Ministery true baptisme true faith true prayer true preaching and administring the supper true excommunication in a Church which is falsly constituted Did the Lord accept the sacrifice of the Church constituted by Jeroboam so page 14. A Church falsly constituted is not accepted of God neither are their actions ecclesiasticall as prayer preaching c. acceptable in the sight of God And againe a false Ministery Worship government may bee in a true Church through ignorance and the like but a true Ministery worship government cannot possibly bee in a
false Church We thinke it needlesse to recite more testimonies Aliquando honus dormitat Homerus A good memory may sometimes fall asleep and not see that which is sometimes most obvious and visible But what other arguments they have are or may bee common to others studious of Reformation as their arguments against ceremonies are common with Non-conformists and therefore if some of our grounds bee found in them it doth not follow they are â—…afts taken out of the same quiver and peculiar to them as you object Reply These reasons shall be common to all that plead for the purity of Gods Ordinances which were never taken to bee sound and true either by the Reformed Churches abroad or by the godly Brethren at home dead or living or yet by the most of the Brethren amongst whom they live and â—…old society or by any Minister and society holding the unity of the Spirit in the hand of peace thâ—…se 1400 years and upward unlesse within these few dayes and that by a few onely Answ Here is a great colour of Novelty and singularity objected to be in the grounds and reasons of the Letter used against conformity to the Liturgy but it is easie to conceive that the same common grounds of all Reformers may be justly carryed on against such further corruptions as they never â—…aw not attending their owne principles in such particulars as was said before of the first Reformers that purged out salt creame oyle c. not the crosse c. and so here it may fall out that as the Lord is pleased to let in more light in this or that particular corruption so upon common grounds it is rejected though yet but one or few apply those grounds to such a particular case Neither here was the number so few as is pretended when this Reply was drawn up or else at least it is much increased of late time since the Assembly and Parliament in England have so openly in their Directory witnessed against such stinted Formes and generally the Churches of Scotland renounced that Liturgy of yours as a piece of Popery Besides all the Orthodox Churches in new-New-England and Holland and many godly in England Reply As yet wee thinke most of them that have separated are not so farre gone as to condemne all our Assemblies as no Churches of Christ Answ By this you seeme to insinuate that notwithstanding our acknowledgement of your Churches and Ministery wee may justly bee accounted amongst those wee properly call Separatists but it is but your thought of most of them without ground contrary to their generall profession in their publique confessions and apologies And therefore we see no reason of it or that it toucheth us but passing these generalls let us come to the matter more particularly Reply Your judgement concerning the Position you deliver in three Propositions for so many they bee for substance in respect of the persons reading the Liturgie or the thing in selfe that is read as if any part of the Liturgie be read put case some few select prayers onely by an unable and ungodly Minister it is unlawfull say you for the people to joyne in that case But if unlawfull for the people to joyne when an ungodly Minister readeth some few select prayers it is either in respect of the Minister or the prayers themselves not of the Prayers themselves for they be select and choyce faultlesse in respect of matter and manner 〈◊〉 is taken for granted unlesse thâ—… distribution bee is no purpose if in respect of the Minister then it is not lawfull to joyne with such an one in any ordinance of God whatsoever In that you analyse our two Propositions into three we shall not contend but follow your method yet wee cannot but marvaile at the liberty that is taken in stating the first Proposition both leaving out and adding such things as will not stand with the termes in our Answer and indeed this is too frequent in divers places of this Reply which gives a great colour of strength unto the arguments but when they come to be scanned it will discover the impertinency of them For 1 Although the Answer distinguisheth of the Liturgie either of the whole or of some select prayers which may bee conceived to bee lesse offensive yet the application of this of select prayers is onely made in the second proposition of the Answer no way intended in the first Neither doth the Answer confesse those prayers as you say to bee choyce and faultlesse for matter and manner but which may bee conceived lesse offensive 2 Whereas the Proposition is of an unable and ungodly Minister such unlearned Idol-Priests that are countenanced and established by the Liturgie and can doe no more then read the same to the unspeakable hazard and ruine of a multitude of soules you carry along your arguments onely in the terme of an ungodly Minister which leaves out one chiefe ground of our proposition viz. unable To reduce therefore this proposition unto its true state which the answer puts it in which is thus If the question bee of joyning in prayer with and when that whole Liturgie is read or where that which is used viz. though not the whole is read by an unable and ungodly Minister wee see not how it can bee lawfull to joyne c. where that which is read by an unable and ungodly Minister cannot have reference to the select prayers but onely was put in to reach the whole case lest any should say may we not joyne therefore if they read not all as sometimes such doe not for haste to the Alehouse Beare-baitings c. And the case is so well known to our selves and others what the manner of such Priests is how farre they are from making any choyce of select prayers or having any skill indeed so to doe that if any bee more superstitious then others they would soonest choose them so that it was farre from our thoughts to impute it to them to read the select prayers onely The question being rightly stated the argument will halt very much For wee say it is unlawfull in both respects and the rather when jointly considered and therefore you should first have justified the whole Liturgy or so much as such Idol-Priests use to read to bee lawfull and also the standing and calling of those men before the argument can hold both which you have wholly left naked without proofe and argue onely about the lawfulnesse of joyning with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God which will not reach this case If one should affirme it is unlawfull to goe to Mattens or Evensong when the whole is read or that which is read 〈◊〉 done by a popish Priest and you should answer then it is either because of the Prayers or the Priest Not the first for the prayers if select may bee good and faultlesse and not because of the Priest for then wee may never joyne with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God
wisheth utinam tales hodie à ministerio aâ—…verentuâ—… Fourthly because the Lord would cast off their children from being his for this sinne as Calvin also notes upon the place the promise of shewing mercy to a 1000. generations being chiefly annexed to the observers of the second Command and the instituted meanes of worship which those Priests never were Reply On the contrary if you will extend this Text to all unworthy Ministers of what sort soever whom the Word of God condemns as not approved Ministers of God c. Answ Wee intended no other sorts then such as wee have in hand the unable and ungodly Idoll Priests of England and therefore this discourse concernes us not For wee freely confesse that it is lawfull in divers cases at least for a time to communicate with such unworthy Ministers as may bee contained in your description but that people must and ought to joyne with such in the worship of God and sinne if they separate from the ordinances as you say the Scriptures alledged teach not this so evidently that wee can see as 1 Sam. 2.12 13.17.24 that imputation Verse 24. They make the Lords people to transgresse doth not depend immediatly on Verse 13 14.17 but on Verse 22.23 where they are charged to have layne with the women the other passages being interrupted by the story of Samuel and his Mother Verse 18 19.20 21. So Jer. 8.8 9. Micah 3.11 12. containe onely threats against wicked Ministers but not a word to prove people ought to joyne with them c. Phil. 1.15 speaking of such as preach and preach Christ though not of sinceritie doth not reach such Ministers as the word condemnes for many such may be approved Ministers by the Word having a call according to the same but wee shall not contend in this case wherein wee doe not dissent so that Christians bee left to their lawfull libertie of withdrawing from Ministers grossely wicked and Teachers of false Doctrin or idle and unsufficient when they cannot reclaime them or remove them in the use of all lawfull meanes within their power Reply The reasons whereby the ancient Churches condemned the Donatists and Catharists for their voluntary and seditious separations and the moderne Churches condemne the Anabaptists for their renting from the body of Christ will hold against separation from the Prayers of the Congregation because they are read by an ungodly Minister Wee deny that wee teach or hold such separation because read by an ungodly Minister as is sufficiently shewed before but what we speak is against conformitie to and communion with the corruptions of the Liturgie especially used by an unable as well as ungodly Minister and therefore the arguments mentioned will hold against our proposition just as the accusations and imputations of Donatisme Puritanisme Anabaptisme which the Prelates cast upon all Non-conformists and men studious of reformation will hold and fasten upon them which is nothing at all Reply The second Proposition where the whole Liturgie is used though by an able and godly Minister it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case Wee cannot bee of your judgement herein for in the times of the Prophets and our Saviour Christ as great abuses no question were found c. but they never taught people to separate from the holy things of God Answ First wee must still mind the Reader of the true and full state of the question which in our answer is of joyning in prayer with and when that whole Liturgy is used and hee that joynes with that whole Liturgie must needs bee supposed to have actuall communion with all the corruptions thereof what ever they bee and therefore though this Proposition reach to the practise of able and godly Ministers yet let none thinke wee plead herein separation from their ministery but onely that people may not conforme with them to any corruption in worship and by this proposition also the Author might easily have seene that wee denied the other which was woven in with this not because of the ungodlinesse of the Minister alone as hee carried his dispute but chiefly in respect of the corruptions of the worship together with the unlawfulnesse of such a ministery that is both unable and ungodly Secondly concerning the argument it runs as full for conformitie to all the corrupt ceremonies of the booke as the corrupt worship it selfe therein as was said before cleare the one viz. non-conformitie to ceremonies shew a reason why you will separate from the Sacrament because you will not kneele according to the booke and you answer your argument here alledged against us but the reply proceeds Reply And if presence at formes of prayer bee not lawfull by reason of the corruptions alledged there can bee no visible societie named since 200. yeeres after Christ or thereabout wherein a Christian might lawfully joyne in prayer reading the Scriptures hearing the word or participation of the Sacraments their Doctrines prayers rights being lesse pure then ours but no man wee hope will bee so bold as to affirme the state of the Churches within 200. yeers after Christ to bee so miserably decayed that the faithfull could not without sinne hold communion with them in the foresaid ordinances of God Answ First this argument holds as strongly for conformitie to the ceremonies as to the whole booke of Common Prayers as was said before Secondly this is a dangerous kind of reasoning from the practise of the faithfull in corrupt times of the Church especially when they are declining and growing clouds of darkenesse and superstition overspread the Churches It is no breach of charitie to thinke that through the iniquitie of the times the godly lived in many evils through ignorance and weakenesse which after light is come into the Churches wee ought to abandon wholly these are times of light and of the consumption of Antichrist and time for us to abolish his Liturgies and corrupt formes of worship as well as Images ceremonies c. Who doe not pitie the weaknesse of godly Bilny and others that seeing some grosse corruptions were yet so devoutly obedient to the Church as they called it in many grosse superstitions and the like may bee said of those former times and wee see not but this reason will goe farre in justification of communion with many false worships of Antichrists that are not grosly idolatrous Thirdly it is a great charge upon those times to say no visible societie throughout the world can bee named since 200. yeeres after Christ that was not lesse pure then England in Doctrine rites c. It may bee that as generally Churches were corrupt so they contemned and censured such as professed more puritie but that there were some visible assemblies more pure may bee conceived by that testimony given to Aerius and many orthodox Christians with him though condemned for a Hereticke in that which wee all now hold to bee an undoubted truth also after the Waldenses casting off the Pope and his will
lawfull for matter and manner the corruption of him that useth it according to his judgement from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailtie Answ First the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Proposition which is of the whole Liturgie not of some things in it that hee may judge lawfull to judge the whole lawfull wee thinke none of those who sent the questions doe Secondly our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailtie but whether the worship offered therein bee not so corrupt for matter and manner as puts a great difference betweene it and the prayers of a Minister that may bee subject to faylings of humane frailtie Wee doubt not but Bilney Latimer c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome out of humane frailtie yet the service it selfe and those ceremonies of holy water holy bread c. which Latimer turned to as good use as hee could were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly Thirdly there are many things done of others through humane frailtie that is ignorantly and in some measure perversely yet such frailties though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man yet every humane frailtie is not so to bee tolerated as to bee communicated with for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense if ignorantly done bee accounted humane frailtie It is true wee may bee freed from communicating in anothers sinne two wayes 1. By bearing witnesse against his sinne or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the growing abominations of Antichrist for many yeeres and there are times as Cameron well observes wherein the Lord commands his people not onely to beare witnesse but to come out of Babylon The case may be so put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men in their sinfull worship by bearing witnesse onely against the sinne yet communicating with them in the rest è eonira the circumstances may bee such as that wee best free our selves from sinne by withdrawing from them in such acts And wee freely confesse wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie without the one or the other Reply Wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many who make much more use of the looke then onely in a few select prayers Answ You may so doe and wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies yet wee hope you will not justifie them in that act no more then we doe any in this Reply From the bottome of our hearts wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends and yet all things might be so done as might be approved in the consciences of all Answ Wee not onely joyne with you in this hearty desire but blesse God that wee live to see the same so farre accomplished in a good part of England as it is but as wee are perswaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Ministers and Christians that have discovered the evill of the booke it selfe as well as the ceremonies thereof and their resolute rejection of the same was one blessed meanes hereof so wee feare the pleas and indeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it and loathnesse to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats from whence it first came Reply To aggrâ—…vatâ—… faults especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of God is no lesse evill then to excuse them it may bee greater Answ Wee grant at some times and in some cases it may bee so but in matters of corrupt worship wherein God is so jealous and at such a time as this was when the burthensome corruptions of humane traditions so violently imposed on the Churches grew to such a number and unsupportable weight to the consciences of so many wee doubt not to affirme that now extenuations were farre more dangerous and offensive to the Lord wee cannot but with sad hearts consider and call to minde how many weake Christians have ventured to swallow downe all manner of humane traditions and worships imposed upon them imboldned much wee feare by the examples if not the reasonings of many godly Ministers which scandall some of us with many amongst you have have cause to bewayle before the Lord and give satisfaction before the world And wee hope our departure from these burdens and flight into these wildernesses to enjoy Christ in more pure ordinances of his worship and the witnesse wee have thereby borne against them have not been in vaine through the grace of Jesus Christ Reply In them that joyne according to Christs command and libertie of absence from Christ hath not been shewed notwithstanding the corruptions wee hold the prayers to bee an holy and acceptable sacrifice to the Lord and pleasing to Jesus Christ Answ How any man can joyne with this whole Liturgie according to Christs command who in the second commandement forbids all humane devices in his worship whereof this Liturgie is so full it is hard for us to conceive and strange to see it affirmed and that Libertie from Christ to bee absent cannot bee shewed The whole sentence as it standeth wee confesse to us seemes an high justification thereof which wee little expected Reply The corrupt sacrifice is that which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily and out of neglect having a male in his flock but the godly bringeth himselfe and godly desires according to the will of God and the corruptions in matter or manner are not his they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine and pollute it The Text in Malach. 1. is misapplyed and wee desire such as alledge this passage against simple presence at the prayers of the Liturgie advisedly to consider whether God allow them to make such application of his truth which we much doubt of to say no more Answ That people joyning in the whole Liturgie voluntarily offer up the same wee thought had beene no question If any joyne by feare and compulsion though the will in this case is not forced for â—…iâ—…ta actio is voluntaria wee thinke that will not ease but aggravate the evill arguing a reluctancy or doubtfulnesse at least in his conscience and so what hee doth is not of faith and therefore sin Rom. 14. 2ly What you say of the faithfull here might be said for the faithful in Malachi his time if any godly man came with godly desires to Jerusalem to worship and then carelesly buy and take a corrupt sacrifice for cheapnesse ease c. shall hee not bee counted at least in part this deceiver and beare the curse And why not so here in this case Let a man bring himselfe and never so godly desires yet if hee
will joyne in a knowne corrupt service will his godly desires excuse him shall not his broken absurd responds his standing at the Creed kneeling at the Sacrament c. all which hee must doe if hee joyne in the whole Liturgie shall none of these cleave to his sacrifice what though the Minister offer the service so did the Priest the sacrifice But both in the name of the people and they joyning with him in offering the same to God 3ly Concerning Malach. 1.13 14. the more advisedly wee consider it the more perswaded wee are the Lord allow us to make such application of the truth contained in it and wee thinke others will bee of our mind not onely in respect of the similitude that iâ—… in this case with that in Malachi but also if wee consider what an argument the Lord useth to convince them of their corruptions and carelesnesse in his service Verse 11. wherein the Lord upbraids the Jewes and provokes them to Jealousie as the Apostle Paul speakes by declaring the reverend esteeme of his name amongst the heathen and that every where Incense should bee offered and a pure offering to his name And what is that Incense and pure offering but the pure prayers and worship of God that should be in all Gentile Churches under the Gospell as Tertullian Eusebius Jerom and Austin with others expound it And hee applies it againe Verse 14. I am a great King and my name shall bee great amongst the heathen If then the Lord oppose the pure prayers and worship of Gentile Churches to the corrupt carelesse sacrifices of the Jewes the application is not onely sutable but the place containes a sad admonition to all Gentile Churches that by their corrupt worships and Incense so farre frustrate as it were Gods expectation and glorying of their pure oblations Reply Your third Proposition That as you are very tender of imputing sinne to those men that joyne in some select prayers read by an able and godly Minister so on the other side you are not without feare lest such joyning may bee found unlawfull unlesse it may appeare that the Ministers with whom they have communion neither give scandall by reading them nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to Idolatry and Superstition nor doe suffer themselves to bee sinfully limited in the reading of them 1 Wee cannot conceive how you should imagine the practise of a godly Minister in reading some few select prayers to bee scandalous or offensive in the Congregations when the people generally in their assemblies and in the whole land were perswaded of the lawfulnesse of that course till now of late times some have beene drawne away to separate who yet by warrant of Scripture produce nothing of weight to countenance that practise Answ Concerning this Proposition wee doe ingenuously confesse that it may seeme over rigid and tending to separation and therefore we will not wholly justifie the same yet diverse things there bee which may much mitigate the seeming rigidnesse of it 1 In the words of the answer where wee doe not determine any thing positively wee doe not impute sinne to any in such a case wee say onely that wee are not without feate lest it may bee found unlawfull where any scandall unlawfull honour or sinfull limiting bee found in the Ministers and if our feares bee needlesse wee hope such as know how jealous the Lord is in matters of his worship will easily forgive us 2 Because you marvell wee should bee so timerous in this case wee shall give you some reasons of it which perhaps may abate much the marvell or wonder First let it bee remembred that these select prayers are yet a part of that Liturgie which is acknowledged to bee corrupt in matter and manner and clogged with such evill consequences as are afore touched Taken out of the Masse-booke c. And Master Parker who was no separatist doubts not to affirme that the touching of Antichrists things maketh uncleane for which hee cites 2 Cor. 6.17 Haggai 2.14 John 4.23 Park of the Crosse part 1. pag. 137. Secondly let it be considered that this booke is imposed by an unlawfull Antichristian authoritie of the Prelates to whom to give place and subjection in any thing is justly to bee questioned And wee know that a man may acknowledge his fealtie and hold his Lands of the Lord of the Manner by a small rent as well as by a greater Thirdly consider this corrupt Service-booke hath beene over-long tolerated and borne withall in the English Churches it deserveth not so honorable a buriall as the Jewish worship but hath stunke above ground twice 40. yeeres in the nostrills of many godly who breathed in the pure ayre of the holy Scripture being witnessed against by the writings and sufferings of many godly Ministers and Christians in England and Scotland Fourthly many godly men it is well knowne have been of late times especially offended at many good Ministers silence in these things that they would no more plainely and boldly discover the corruptions in that booke and at their compliance with the same Fiftly these are times of more light whereby the Lord is consuming Antichrist with the breath of his mouth And therefore we have cause the more to feare how we meddle with any thing of his Sixtly consider the season when this answer was sent was it not at a time when superstitious opinions of the whole booke and the ceremonies thereof were growne to a great height in the mindes and hearts of very many when divers superstitious Popish worships as bowing at the name of Jesus reading at the Table set Altar-wise c. were added to the heape of former corruptions when the tyranny of the Prelates raged in the pressing of the booke and their other humane inventions when many Ministers and people well thought of by the best were carried away shamefully with these things when many weake Christians were staggering and wavering and looking at the judgement and practise of their guides ready to stand or fall with them Lastly consider that things lawfull in themselves may bee inexpedient because offensive in their use and so farre unlawfull which offence wee chiefly looked at in this act as appeares by our answer Let all these things bee laid together and weighed in an equall ballance which wee hope our brethren are now at some libertie and leasure to doe and let the consciences of all speake whether it was not high time for all the godly in England to take unto them that zeale and courage which was soone after in our Brethren of Scotland to cast off and wholly abandon the book it self and all the formes of it and use of the same in every part and peece thereof At least wee hope you will cease to marvell at our timerousnesse of such a season how ever wee confesse wee have sometime been more bold in the darke These considerations premised as they may in a great measure abate the seeming rigour of the
it and see such superstitious opinions of it increasing and such pressing the same to the oppression of the Churches so many fall so many weak ones stagger and look at the example of their Guides if now when all are called of God to rise up against it with zeal and detestation a Minister godly and able will use any part of it with offence c. we suppose we had cause to fear and leave it doubtfull whether the godly might lawfully joyn with them therein and therefore we desire you to call back your sharp censure of such withdrawing as you conclude this passage withall or else we shal appeal to the reverend Assembly of Ministers and their late and godly Directory herein Reply Fifthly If these and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordinance of Worship we must hold communion with no society under heaven For may not the brethren which hold all stinted Liturgies and set Forms unlawfull say with like reason it is not lawfull to joyn with others inconceived Prayers if they give too little honor to it as conceiving the other lawful or sinfully limiting themselves to one stinted Form though conceived at first by themselves c. Answ We must intreat the Christian Reader still to carry in minde with what tendernesse we offered our selves in this point and upon what considerations we durst not wholly excuse and cleare such joyning as the case now stood and therefore we think these reasonings would be far differing from the case in hand and we would not be taken so as to justifie such rigid principles as these are We heartily joyn in the conclusion that such advancing of small differences would indeed bring all to confusion and we are far we hope from any such meaning If our answer in this or any other passage give just advantage to such separations we are heartily sorry for it but we hope what hath been said will satisfie the ingenuous and Christian Reader Reply Sixthly we have credibly heard that you hold fellowship with professed rigid separatists without acknowledging of their error and receive them as members or communicate with them in the priviledges of the Church though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice and if in godly wisdome you can see grounds to joyn with them we marvail you should be so timerous in this particular Answ Although in many of our Churches we know not that there be any such professed rigid Separatists that reject the Churches of England as no Churches and their Ministers as no true Ministers yet we deny not but some such there may bee in some of the Churches Whence we grant it may follow that we can have communion in Gods Worship with men of severall judgments yet we may be justly timerous of joyning or approving others to joyn in any part of a corrupt Worship in case of scandall c. we think these things have not the same face or shew of reason in them and therefore so long as they live peaceably with us we can well have fellowship with them as we have also with other that think it may be better of the Churches and wayes of it then there is cause in regard of the corruptions thereof so we be not bound to approve their opinions nor conform to any of their corrupt practises Reply Seventhly if to administer in a stinted Form be scandalous to such as separate it is scandall taken not given and we should do it the rather that they be not confirmed in their error the truth be not prejudiced needless scruples occasioned c. Answ 1 This is from the question for we dispute of your Liturgy not of any Liturgy or stinted Form 2 Take in the case in all its circumstances as before declared and it will appear scandall may be given at least we put the case of a scandall really given 3 How far a man in some cases of clear and undoubted truths may do a thing the rather for such reasons though others take offence we will not dispute but if for meat or by use of our liberty by eating of such meat as another accounts unclean we may destroy the work of God and therefore must not eat flesh nor drink wine nor any thing whereby a brother stumble c. Rom. 14 14 15 20 21. how dangerous then to use such corrupt Forms of Worship or any part thereof so much the rather when a weak brother stumbles at them we leave it to the Christian Reader to judge we doubt it will not agree with the rules of charity prescribed Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8. CHAP. III. 3 Position That the children of godly and approved Christians are not to be baptized untill their Parents be set members of some particular Congregation 4 That the Parents themselves though of approved piety are not to be received to the Lords-supper untill they be admitted as set members Reply WHat is here premised to prevent mistakes doth seem more to raise then to abate scruples You refuse not all communion with all that are not Church-members and so much they professe who formerly have gone for and professed themselves Separatists from our assemblies you doe not appropriate these priviledges of the seals onely to members of your own Churches c. If you mean onely that the Sacraments administred in other Churches be true for substance it is no more then you will confesse of Rome If you deny not fellowship with them in the seals and to receive them to the Sacrament your judgement is against your practise or you exclude the Churches of England from the number of true Churches Answ We see not how such scruples could be raised without great mistake of our meaning our expressions were so plain and distinct For 1 What if some Separatists admit private communion with such yet they reject your Churches and Ministery as null which we doe not And many of them have refused also such private communion 2 We marvail how you could fall into such a mistake as to suppose we onely allow the truth of Sacraments for substance in other Churches when we speak in the same sentence of receiving satisfaction by Letters or otherwise concerning those we admit to the seales which plainly shew we speak of communion with such Churches 3 Concerning fellowship with those Churches we may admit members of them to the seales with us when we cannot always joyn with them in their administrations by reason of some sinfull corruptions wherein we must have actuall fellowship with them as your selves would not joyn in case you must kneel at the Lords-supper 4 Concerning the Dilemma We answer 1 Our practice is not crosse to this profession For such as come recommended from forein Churches and give such satisfaction as is meet we doe receive and such as have wholly cast off all relation to English Churches and live amongst us we have looked at as scattered stones till they joyn some where in a Church and themselves generally
communion together in the Jewish policy and yet were not one politicall Body so the Churches of Galatia might have communion together yet were distinct Churches not one Church aâ—… also the Churches of New England have sweet and blessed commâ—…nion yet are distinct And though the Churches of Galaâ—…ia were called a whole lâ—…mp as is objected yet were they thus by politicall combination or as Dr. Downam to mould up a Diocesan Church compares the first Church to a great lump of dough or batch of bread out of which particular Churches were formed into many loaves or not rather called a lump by spirituall union and relation common profession and fraternall communion being all the same Countrey-men so also the Apostles had Church communion yet were not a politicall body Kingdoms so may have civil communion and commerce yet not be one Kingdom Objection 6 If the Keys be given to a particular Church under the notion of the Spouse of Christ a flock of redeemed ones c. and then much more to the Catholick visible Church which is the Spouse of Christ and flock of redeemed ones primarily and to a particular Church onely secondarily but the first is affirmed by such as deny such a Catholick Church Ergo. Answ 1 It is true the notion of a flock of redeemed ones of the Body and Spouse of Christ Kingdom House c. doe agree primarily to the Church not of this but of all ages and secondarily to the Church of this age Colos 1.18 Ephes 5.25 26. and 2.19 2 The Church which is the Body of Christ existing in this age the Keys are given to it primarily in comparison of particular Churches coexisting with it as to the chief object and end but not to it as a politicall Body in respect of actuall and immediate dispensation thereof for as we have oft said if in respect of Politicall dispensation the Keys belong firstly to the Body of Christ as his Spouse and redeemed ones then the Church invisible as invisible rather then visible must have the dispensation of the Keys primarily 3 It is not said that the Keys are immediately given to a particular Church abstractly as a number of redeemed but as consociated and politically combined And in this respect that may be attributed to the part a particular Congregation of redeemed ones which cannot be attributed to the whole Ex. gr such a Congregation is combined so is not the whole nor can be such a Church may choose a Pastor over it but so cannot the whole so a man may tell the particular Church who may convene together not so the whole Thus far through the helpe of Christ we have endevoured to clear the first Point propounded concerning a Catholick instituted Church We come now to prove the second Point viz. That Jesus Christ hath instituted in the Gospel a particular Church of one Congregation in which and unto which the actuall and immediate dispensation and participation of all instituted Worship doe regularly and ordinarily belong And here we shall shew 1 What such a particular Church is 2 How the dispensation of Church power and priviledge do belong unto it For the first we shall declare our selves in these Five Propositions 1 It must be a visible Society for One man cannot make a Church nor can many visible beleevers living severally without society in severall Nations make One Church 2 It 's not every Society of visible Professors that doe make a Church for then every family of such Professors are a Church Then two or three which our Brethren so much condemn are a Church and then a Society of Women professing the truth may be a Politicall Church then many members of severall Churches met to hear a Sermon or any like occasion make a Church then a number of Professors may constitute a Diocesan Church or any like form for out of this block That any number of beleevers made a Church Dr. Downam hewed out his Diocesan Church and so made a fit seat for his Diocesan Mercury Lastly then particular Churches should have no more any set Form prescribed then Civill government which is as variable as humane wisdome sees meet for hence a particular Church may be melted into any form or mould of civil Society for imagine a number of professing beleevers cohabiting either in a City Hundred Wapentake Shire Province Nation Empire c. there shall then be so many forms of Churches contrary to the principles and unanswerable arguments of our best Reformers who accounted it a great absurdity that the heavenly Kingdome of Christ should be moulded and framed according to the weaknesse of humane wisdome and policy 3 It must therefore be a Society combined and that by a Covenant explicite or implicite for it must be such a combined Society where the whole have power over its members now whatever power one hath over another if it be not by way of conquest or naturall relation as the father over the childe it is by covenant as husband and wife Master and servant Prince and people other powers are but usurpations it is noted as a prophane speech in Bronnus who professed he knew no other rule of Justice then for the greater to subdue the lesse Again it is such a Society as hath an ordinate power to subject it self to Officers by electing of them to administer ordinances amongst them but this is onely a federall Society Again it is such a Society to the making up of which is required something more then faith Acts 5.14 Beleevers were added to the Lord or to his Church so that they were first beleevers before they were added to the Church for there may be a number of beleevers converted at one Sermon and immediately scattered into many Towns or Countreys Now if faith professed alone makes not a Church but somewhat more is required what can that be but foederall combination Lastly that the dissolution whereof doth unchurch a people doth constitute a Church but breaking the combination dissolves the Church whether by consent schism or when God himself removes the candlestick Ergo. 4 Though a Church be such by combining and so subjecting themselves to the power of others yet it must not be herein illimited but according to the form and mould expressed in the Word for if they have this power to combine as many and as largely as they will then a Diocese Province Nation may combine and so put themselves under the power of a Diocesan Provinciall Nationall society which is unlawfull for the Church must be such a form as a man may ordinarily bring offences unto it according to Matth. 18. Tell the Church but that cannot be in a Diocese much lesse in a Province or Nation where the Members can neither take notice of the offence nor ordinarily so much as consent unto any censure acted by any Officers in such a Church nay further if their power be unlimited they may choose a Diocesan Pastor one or many to feed all or one to
rule like Beza his Episcopus humanus with subjection in case of error to the censure of all nay hence we see not but they may choose an universall Pastor and so give away the power to one if all will agree In a word they onely may combine into a Politicall Body where the whole may excommunicate any part but this cannot be in a combination of many Churches into one whole because no particular Church is capable of excommunication for it is impossible to be cast out of it self as was said before 5 A particular Church therefore must be such a Society as is so combined together that it may ordinarily enjoy Church communion to exercise Church power to be fed by her Officers and led by them hence Titus was to set Elders in every Church and these Elders were such as could ordinarily feed them by preaching the Word as well as rule and govern them Now that such a Congregationall Church is the institution of the Gospel appears first by those many Scriptures that speak of the Churches of one Countrey and in small compasse as severall Churches not as one as the Churches of Judea Samaria and Galilee Acts 9. the Churches of Galatia Gal. 1.1 yea not only in one small Countrey but in Cities or near unto them we read of distinct Churches as Corinth though God had much people there yet it was one Congregation 1 Cor. 14.33 and had another Church near to it viz. Cenchrea Also Rome whom the Apostle saluting sends also salutations by them to Aquila and Priscilla with the Church in their houshold which shew they were not far from that Church of Rome To these add that Jerusalem the first Church that was constituted by the Apostles and whose number was the greatest of any that we read of yet it was but one Congregation as is evident by Acts 1. and Chap. 2.41 42. What is objected against this to prove it the Catholick Church was answered before other objections against this and like examples shall be considered in their due place as we meet with them But we shall not need to say much that a Congregation furnished with its Officers is a Church according to the institution of the Gospel but there are more objections against the compleatnesse thereof which yet is proved thus That Church which hath power of all the Keys given unto it for actuall administration within it self is a compleat Church But so hath a particular Congregation Ergo. The first part is evident because where all the Keys are with full power to administer the same there nothing is wanting the Assumption is proved thus If all those Officers to whom is given the authoritative power of exercising the Keys be given to a Congregation then all the Keys are so given to it but so it is for since Apostles and extraordinary Officers ceased there are no other Officers but Pastors Teachers and Rulers called sometimes Bishops sometimes Elders but these Officers are given to such a Church as is proved Acts 14. Tit. 1.4 and is acknowledged in all Reformed Churches who ordain such Officers in particular Churches of one Congregation Ergo. Objection 1 If it be said that though a Congregation hath such Officers as have the power of the Keys yet that such must combine with others in way of co-ordination to govern in common and so to be helped and compleated by them Answ We grant much help may be had by sister Churches and consultative Presbyteries but that which takes away the exercise of the Keys in point of government from the church to whom Christ hath given it doth not compleat it but take away and destroy the power and liberty of it for though the Pastor of a congregation may oft consent yet the major part of the Presbytery must carry it whether he consent or no and therefore his power is swallowed up Besides it seems to us a mystery that every Pastor even such as have no flock should be Pastors of the Catholick church and yet a Pastor should not have power to rule in his own flock over which Christ hath made him a Bishop and for which flock he must give account unto God Objection 2 It cannot have a Synod which is one ordinance of God therefore it is not a compleat Church Answ By this reason a Classicall church is not compleat because it cannot have a Nationall councell nor a Nationall church because it cannot have a generall councell if it be said a classis have all ordinary meanes to a compleat church we say the like of a congregation Objection 3 Though a Town or family being cast alone may govern as a compleat body yet when it stands in a common-wealth as in England it may not be so independent but submit to combinations so here when a particular Congregation is alone it may govern as compleat not so when amongst other Churches Answ If such a Town or family have compleat power and all civill Officers within it self it is not bound to submit to such combinations in a common-wealth except it be under a superior power that can command the same As Abraham having a compleat government in his family was not bound to combine with the governments he came amongst neither did he in prudence he joyned in a league of amity and for mutual help with Aner c. but not to submit to their government so here a Church having compleat Officers is not bound to submit to such combinations except it be proved that any superior power of other churches can command the same Secondly though a family not having compleat civill government in it self must combine where it stands in a commonwealth yet never to yeeld up its family-government over wife children and servants to rule them in common with other Masters of families no civill prudence or morall rule taught men ever so to practise and therefore why in such a case should a Church give up the government of it self to Pastors of many Churches to rule it in common and not rather as a Classis is over-awed by the Provinciall onely in common things so in congregations Pastors should govern their flocks and onely in things common be under a Presbytery If it be said That the Classis do act in such things only for in excommunication of an offender the offence is common to all We answer if so then why should not the Provinciall and Nationall Churches by this reason assume all to themselves from the Classis for the offence of one is common to all As also upon this ground why should not the Classis admit all the members of every Congregation under them for this also may concern them all Thirdly here is a great difference for civill Societies are left to civill prudence and may give up themselves to many forms of government but Churches are bound to use and maintain such order of government as Christ hath set in the church and not to give it up to many no more then to
exposition of this Text wee have not observed one substantiall ground or approved author to bee alledged Dr. Ames shewing the necessitie of Christians joyning themselves to some peculiar Church giveth this reason Quoniam alias fieri non potest quin conturbentur signa illa quibus fideles ab infidelibus discerni possunt 1 Cor. 5.12 But herein Dr. Ames manifestly sheweth that by them without heathens and unbeleevers must be understood and not beleevers though of no setled society for the time for thus wee conceive hee argueth The signes whereby the faithfull are to bee discerned from unbeleevers must not bee confounded but unlesse Christians make themselves actuall members of a Church the signes whereby the faithfull are discerned from unbeleevers will bee obscured and darkned and if this be his reason how can that Text bee alledged unlesse by men without infidels bee understood Answ First That we have reasons to alledge it in that sense and respect declared may appeare by our answers to your objections Secondly That wee have one approved authour so alleadging it viz. Doctor Ames shall appeare in cleering his meaning from your objections 1. Grant that by men without according to Doctor Ames his reason Infidels be understood by the Apostle yet how shall the signes discerning beleevers from unbeleevers bee confounded by such as joyne not to some particular Church if those beleevers doe not in some respect stand without amongst unbeleevers and the consequence is so plaine that the owne Syllogisme whereinto you cast his argument would have concluded so much if it had been suffered to speake out in the conclusion For in stead of saying except such joyne to some Church the signes will be darkned and obscured the reason rightly concluded would have said fieri non potest it cannot bee but the signes will bee confounded and therefore in his judgement it is unavoidablâ—… that such mix themselves with unbeleevers that are without indeed properly in the Apostles sense Reply Againe Doctor Ames lib. 4. cap. 17. speaking of Infants to be received saith it is required first that they be in the Covenant of Grace by outward profession c. Answ What you alledge here out of Doctor Ames wee confesse sheweth that hee was very large in his charity about the baptizing of Infants extending the same to the child of a Papist c. but it may seeme by some passages that hee understood by profession of faith such as live in the visible Churches and lookes at the child of a Papist as one of a visible Church for substance though so exceedingly corrupt but all this do not disprove that he understood 1 Cor. 5.12 otherwise then hath been said What you alledge out of his second Manuduction concerning the Churches of England we consent unto neither doe wee deny seales to any if they demand them as members of any true Church in England and in an orderly way CHAP. X. Consid 5. Reply TO the first consideration If it bee repugnant to divine institution to admit of approved Christians lawfully baptized walking in the faith members of the visible Churches and partakers of Church priviledges amongst us to the Lords Supper or their children to baptisme because they bee not entered into Church-fellowship according to your order then it is unlawfull though no such evill consequences are to bee feared but if by accident some abuse should fall out the evill is to bee prevented by all lawfull meanes but the faithfull are not to be debarred utterly of the order of God whereto they have right and title by his free grant and gracious institution Answ Wee cannot but still complaine of this liberty which is taken in changing the termes of the question First that clause Members of visible Churches is not in the poâ—…ition nor is it maintained by us in that sense neither doe wee limit Church-fellowship to our order as it is called but acknowledge Churches defective in matters of order as was said in the answer and therefore it is an apparent wrong to us and to the readers so oft to put in such things as are not in the controversie Secondly If it bee unlawfull by divine institution may not evill consequences bee added and if both hold are not our reasons the more strong What needeth then such a Reply Thirdly We have oft granted a remote right but next and immediate we still deny and wee conceive no other order of God in his Churches to prevent such evils then by joyning to the instituted Churches of Christ Reply Seals may bee prophaned when the dispensers cannot helpe it but here is no feare or danger of such consequences necessary to follow for wee speake not of all sorts at randome but of Christians professing the faith intirely lawfully baptized knowne and approved to the wise and judicious visible members of the Churches amongst us sufficiently known to you or orderly recommended c. Answ The feare and danger in this case is more then so farre off can easily bee discerned though the limitations bee good in themselves yet the application of this description in the first part of it would open a doore wider then many can imagine for many such in the judgement even of the wisest comming into this state of temptations prove farre otherwise even your selves being Judges if you were here wee suppose the experience of the discoveries God hath made in these late trials of England amongst forward professors will teach our brethren to consider how many professors may prove here Yet secondly if you add such as retaining their membership in your Churches are recommended unto us by your Churches or by known godly Ministers wee can then according to order receive them and avoid the confusion and inconveniences wee objected Thirdly if also it be taken into the description knowne and sufficiently approved of our selves then the doore is open to them to the communion of the Church and all the priviledges thereof though they cannot settle in the place of their present abode and this way of order would prevent the inconveniences but if wee come to put a difference any other way wee cannot avoid it but great offence will be given to many and the inconveniences objected in some degree at least will follow here with us and it may be much more in some other places Reply You professe high respect to your brethren in Old England but it seemes you judge them insufficient to give you orderly testimony of the sincerity of approved Christians well known and living amongst them which two cannot well agree Answ This Position holds forth no such judgement of the insufficiency of our Brethren in the case neither have we shewed it by rejecting such orderly testimony that we know Reply Wee speake not of such who against light refuse to professe subjection to the Gospell of Christ or to joyne to some approved Church c. Answ Neither doe wee impute that to all that joyne not unto us but our meaning is that under such a
of right and libertie to chuse their pastour may desire the seales of him that is set over them Answ This objection is easie for in desiring seales of him and submitting themselves to his ministry they doe now choose him however at first they opposed his comming But what is this to what ought to bee in an orderly way whereof wee speake Reply These propositions being allowed for currant a nation or people plunged into Idolatry or Infidelity or otherwise dischurched cannot by ordinary meanes recover into a Church estate wherein they may lawfully and according to Gods appointment desire or expect that the seales of the Covenant shall bee dispensed unto them Answ What should hinder if the whole nation would bee willing to recover themselves into Churches Indeed that is rare to be found that all will affect such a recovery But wee see nothing to hinder but all the nation or so many as are awakened in conscience to bewaile their Apostasie and lament after the Lord having especially the countenance of the supreme magistrate severall companies of Christians may combine in Churches so as may best suite with their edification chuse officers and injoy ordinances Nay è contra our Protestant Divines as Chemnitius Field Brentius Whitacher Luther c. make peoples power of electing their Ministers the best foundation of a peoples recovery of a true Ministry and Church estate Reply The fifth Proposition riseth beyond measure That no Christian can expect by the appointment of God to partake in the seales till hee have joyned himselfe in Church fellowship and in the call of the Minister We conceive you will not say that children and women have to doe in the call of the Minister If some part of the Church doe not consent in the call of the Minister must they separate from the ordinances of worship c. Answ The seeming sâ—…ellings of this proposition will easily full and run within bankes and bounds if it bee received in its true sense and meaning for by the call of a Minister must needs bee understood the voluntary subjection of all Church members to his ministery after hee is called as well as the act of election of him at the first It were irrationall to thinke a Minister is to bee chosen over againe whensoever a member is added to the Church And therefore ouâ—… meaning was not hard to conceive and being so taken women choose their Minister that is voluntarily submit to him being chosen Children are subjected to him by their parents the dissenting part of the Church ought to submit to him being chosen and â—…oe if they remaine under his Ministry and so in all other cases you have or can suppose Reply Here you say people must joyne in the call of a Minister before they can lawfully desire and bee admitted to the seales And another hath zealously affirmed It is a presumptuous sinne to choose an Officer not trayned up and tryed in debaâ—…ing disâ—…ssâ—…g câ—…ying and contriving Church affaires in adâ—…nishing â—…châ—…ting comforting c. Lâ—…y these together and consider how long many a poore soule converted to the faith must bee compelled to wâ—…t Gods ordinances Answ First it doth not answer the profession in the latter thus to joyne us with Mr. Robinson as another of the same sort as it were For such as would gladly receive euery Syllable from us that may dislodge their thoughts of separation in us as wee are heartily desired to bee assured of in the Epistle to this Reply wee thinke would not so closely joyne us with such they would have us parted from and upon so little occasion and to so little purpose unlesse they doe much forget themselves Secondly when it cannot be denied but the choyse of Ministers is in the Church and that hands should not rashly bee laid on any man and Deacons the lowest Office should bee proved and then Minister being found blamelesse yea hee saith and these also proved implying that others also should bee so 1 Tim. 3.10 what fault can be found with the substance of what either Robinson or our selves speake if our meaning and his were but charitably taken If his word bee over-zealous to say it is a presumpteous sin to doe otherwise what is that to us Thirdly For the delay of ordinances if both these be taken together in most cases it need not be long where God affordeth able and fit men for office But if some delay be and that a church want some ordinances and cannot by Communion with other Churches injoy them which is rare yet is it not better to forbeare some ordinances a while then miscarry in so great a worke as the choise of officers upon which the following comfort and good of the Church doth so much depend The demand following is answered in this whole discourse and wee hope not with words but proofes especially in our answer to the Reply in the first consideration neither doe wee see any such difficulty but that such Christians may as easily joyne to such a Church for a time as desire to injoy the ordinances and to sit loose from it for transient members we disallow not Reply If the propositions may stand for good I feare we shal scarce finde that ever in ordinary way the Sacraments were lawfully dispensed or received in the Christian Churches of God since the first foundation of them Answ If they bee taken in their true meaning and in that latitude we intend them wee see no such cause of scruple For what is more ordinary in all true Churches then for people first to chuse their Ministers then to receive the seals at their hands and this hath beene the way of Ancient reformers It is true many corruptions have beene in many true Churches and usurpations upon the right of the people in choosing their Ministers as also in administrations of the Ordinances themselves and oft in the Constitution of Churches But as the maintaining of any truth of God against those corruptions in worship c. doth not argue an unlawfulnesse of the ordinances in such Churches but convinceth onely the corrupt administration of them So in this case to assert the right way of Churches electing officers and injoying Ordinances against all corruptions that have beene in the Churches doth not make a nullity of the Ordinances themselves We may say that this conclusion riseth beyond measure The objections being thus answered we leave the conclusion to the judgement of the indifferent Reader CHAP. XII Reply TO the seventh consideration The practise of the Church of Strangers in London recorded by John Alasco is far differing from your judgment and practise in the point in question For first say they Paul testifieth that the Church it self without exception of any member of it is cleane or holy by the administration of baptisme Answ We confesse the same Reply Secondly They hold Communion with the Church of England as one with theirs Answ The Church of England they call it not but the
communion with him as a true Minister of Jesus Christ in the Church he doth belong to as they may do with a member unjustly cast out but til that appeare unto them they cannot so esteem and honor him being orderly deposed but must at least suspend their judgment til the case be cleared Fourthly we answer clearely and plainely to the chiefe scope of the question If a Minister bee unjustly deposed or forsaken by his particular Church and he also withall renounce and forsake them so farre as all Office and relation betweene them cease then is hee no longer an Officer or Pastour in any Church of God whatsoever you will call it And the Reason is because a Ministers office in the Church is no indelible Character but consists in his relation to the flocke and if a Minister once ordained his relation ceasing his Office of a Minister Steward of the mysteries of God shall still remaine why should not a ruling Elder or Deacon remaine an Elder or Deacon in the Church as well all are Officers Ordained of Christ alike given to his Church Officers chosen and Ordained by laying on of â—…ands alike but weâ—… suppose you will not say a Deacon In such a case should remaine a Deacon in the Catholique Church therefore not a Minister Secondly wee shall now consider what is here said and first this language of a Minister in the usuall Church as a particular Church hath union with and is a part of the universall it is an unusuall expression to us and to the Scripture phrase and therefore beare with us if wee fall short of your meaning the usuall Church in England hath beene either the Arch-Deacons Church in the Deanaâ—…ies or Diocesan in the Bishoprick or Provinciall or Nationall but wee hope that there is no such intended here yet to all this and the jurisdiction thereof particular Churches have been subject as parts there But if by usuall Church you meane a Classical Provinciall or Nationall Church wee must intreat better grounds for any of these and therefore wee must confesse our minde and meaning is not so that wee looke at a Minister of a particular Church in any such relation to the usuall and intermediate Church betweene it and the Catholique The second sense therefore we owne and acknowledge as before But whether this be contrary to the judgement and practise of the universall Church wee know not because it is hard for us know what the universall Church judgeth except we could heare it speake or see its practise if the onely head Prophet and Shepherd of the Church Jesus Christ be fit to declare her judgement we will be tryed thereby who we know hath set Elders in every particular Church Act. 14.23 to watch over their particular flock Act. 20.28 but not over any other Church that wee can finde Neither doth this destroy the unity or Communion of the Catholique Church nor of particular Churches one with another as is said for Churches may enjoy brotherly Communion one with another without such stated formes under the power and authority of one another as hath been shewed before Reply For if he be not a Minister to other Churches then are not the Churches of God one nor the Communion which they have together on nor the Ministers one non the flocke which they feed one Answ In what sense is intended to have the Ministers one and flocke one we doe not see If you meane one by one visible Government over the Catholique Church wherein there is a subordination of Churches and Ministers you must at last rise to Oecomenicall Pastor or Councell that must be the supreme which can scarce ever be had If you meane an unity by brotherly Communion in officeâ—… of love and mutuall helpefulnesse of Churches and Ministers without usurpation such an unity and Community is not destroyed and the argument doth not follow Cannot many distinct societies of Townes or Corporations make up one County except the Major or Constable in one Towne be a Major or Constable in others also By this Reason the Deacon of one Church is the Deacon of all or else the unity is destroyed Reply If the Pastor derive all his authority from the Church when the Church hath set him aside what right hath he to administer among that people Answ True but we say he derives all his authority from Christ by the Church indeed applying that office to him to which the authority is annexed by the institution of Christ hence being the Minister of Christ unto them if they without Christ depose him they hinder the exercise of his Office but his right remaines Reply As they give right to an unworthy man to minister amongst them if they cal him unjustly so they take right from the worthy if they unjustly depose him Answ We grant there is a parity in foro externo but as in the call his outward cal consists in the election of the calling and the acceptation of the called to compleat his power of administration Now this by Christ in his Church may be destroyed in a â—…ust censure without his consent but cannot unjustly be wrung from him without his consent therefore he may hold his right till either hee be justly deposed or willingly relinquish the same upon their injurious interruption of the use of his right Reply And whereas you say the Minister is for the Ministery and the Office for the execution and so the Pastor and the flocke are relatives and therefore if their election gave him authority among them to feed their câ—…sting him off hath stripped him of the same power they gave him Answ Wee grant it is so yet the execution may bee unjustly hindred though the right and Office remaine But we may well retort this argument upon the Minister of the usuall or Catholicke Church Thus if the Minister bee for the Ministery and the Office for the execution and so the Pastor and flock be relatives then hee that may justly for ever be hindred of all execution of the Ministery and hath no power to censure his flock or cannot so much as justly approve and admonish them for the same surely hee hath a poore Office and Ministery but such a Minister that hath no particular Congregation that is his flock under his charge may justly be excluded out of all Churches and cannot censure or reprove his Catholique or usuall Church for the same therefore he is indeed no Minister and and hath no Office in the Church of God â—…HAP XVII Position 8. THat one Minister cannot performe any Ministeriall act in another Congregation Reply The Preaching of the Word and publique Prayer in the Congregation meet together solemnely to worship God c. are properly Ministeriall c. Answ Concerning our true sense and meaning in our answer to this Position wee have spoken in the second consideration of the second and third Positions to which wee referre the Reader onely here wee must ingenuously confesse that our expression That a Minister exercising in another Church doth it not by vertue of any calling but onely by his gifts is not so cleare but may occasion stumbling yet the the next words following doe fully expresse our mindes viz. that he doth not put forth such a Ministeriall act of authority and power in dispensing of Gods Ordinances as a Minister doth performe to that Church whereunto hee is called to be a Minister for so hee doth not performe any Ministeriall act with that authority hee doth to his owne which further cleares up our expression in the second consideration viz. that he is a Pastor of none but his proper flocke although some acts of his Office may extend beyond his owne flocke as we have shewed before and therefore in this sense we may still conclude that if the question be put to any Minister so exercising in another church which was once put to our Saviour By what authority dost thou these things let him study how to give an answer for wee have not yet learned it from this Reply We confesse there are some godly learned servants of Christ who possibly may bee otherwise minded and thinke that a Minister preaching in another Congregation doth it onely as a gifted man as the Refuter of Doctor Downam with others in former times of Reformation beleeved also But we desire that if any difference appeare herein it may bee no prejudice to the same cause for substance wee maintaine if by sundry lines wee all meet at last in the same point FINIS Vid Pet. Mart. Loc. Com. de Excom Brins Watch part 3. capâ—… 10. Jun. lib. 1. paral 6. G. Apol. cap. 7. Q. 2. Ibid. p. 138. Peter Martyr in 1 Kings 12. verse 31. Pet. Mart. Com. Loc. de Idol in praeâ—… l. 1. Iohn 2.15 16. Conc. Miliv Can. 12. Tertull. Apol. cap. 30. Vid. Chemnit Ex. de Innoc. Sanctorum Vid. Birth of Heresies out of Elasopolitans Comment Pet. Mart. loc â—…om de Idol Whit. de Eccle. 1 Cor. 15.47 Vid. Brightm An. in Loc. Cypr. lib. 3. Epist 13. Cypr. lib. 4. Epist 7. * Right of Presbyt pag. 482. Page 22. Page 68. Tertul. lib. 4. Com. Mar. * Calvin Epist 332. Chamier de Euchar cap. 13. Reply To the second Consideration of the Answer Pet Mart. de Excom Loc. Com. * Officiall Lib. 1. cap. 6.7 Rev. 2.2 and 3.9 Acts 2 38.8 â—…7 19 17 18 â—… Cham de Bap. lib. 5. cap. 1â—…
so judge of themselves but if any will hold to their membership in England and come orderly to communion with us we have not nor shall not under that notion refuse them if they be fit for the ordinances and therefore we exclude not the English Churches out of the number and herein we deal no otherwise with them then with the members of our owne Churches Reply All possible care to keep the ordinances of God from contempt we allow and commend so you deny not Church priviledges to whom they are due nor the name of Churches to such as God hath blessed with meanes of grace and have received the Tables and Seales and entred Covenant with God Your liberty to receive such satisfaction as is meet is not questioned nor whether you are to keep the bond of the spirit inviolable according to order but whether this be according to order to exclude from the Sacrament true visible Christians or known recommended Christians formerly members of visible Churches amongst us and their children and to put such difference between them and such as are in your Church order Answ 1 If the learned Author would hold to what here is granted we hope this controversie would soon be at an issue but it will appear after this order allowed binds onely in case of the Ministers to dispense Sacraments but Christians are left at a loose end in respect of combining themselves unto particular Churches according to the order of Christ which is the thing wee plead for 2 We have not denyed the name of Churches to such as are said to have plentifully the means of grace Tables Seales and Covenant 3 Concerning the stating of the question too much liberty is taken as in other cases for neither in the Position or in our Answer doe we limit the question to members in our Church order as here it is called but expresly extend the same to other Churches of Christ though through error or humane frailty defective in matters of order yea to the members of any true Church as in the Answer is said 2. Concerning such as come over and are for a time without Seales it is not because we refuse communion with them as being members of your Churches known or recommended Christians as you say For if any godly man remaining a member in any true Church with you or elswhere come so recommended or be well known to the Church we never under that notion refuse any but giving such other satisfaction as is meet shall readily receive them as we always professe and therefore we must still call for attendance to the state of this question in its right terms viz. whether the children of godly parents or themselves though of approved piety are to be admitted to the seales not being members of some particular Congregation or untill they be such CHAP. IV. Reply TO the first consideration If by the Church be understood the society of men professing the entire faith the seales are given to it as peculiar priviledges but if you understand a Congregationall assembly the seales were never appropriated to it Answ 1 Our meaning is plain in the second sense as may appear by the reasons alledged against any such universall Church as instituted and politicall wherein the seales are dispensed which reasons you answer not but grant there is no such Catholick Church in our sense pag. 21. And if no such Church wherein the seales are administred as we proved then the cause it self is yeelded and the seales must belong to particular Churches 2 Seeing the main hinge of this question turns upon this point to what Church the administration and participation of the seals belong wee shall a little further open our selves in this point And because we affect and study peace with truth we shall freely acknowledge First that as there is an invisible Church and Body of Christ consisting of all the elect effectually called throughout the world in all ages of it the whole family in heaven and earth so unto Jesus Christ all the visible beleevers and Churches of the world are as one body to him he governing protecting instructing all as his visible body Secondly we acknowledge a visible communion of all the true Churches of the Lord Jesus in all offices of brotherly love and in the holy things of Christ so far as may appear the Lord have ordained and commanded and by his Providence called them to exercise one with another Thirdly we grant that all true beleevers where-ever they bee have by faith in Christ a true right and interest unto Jesus Christ and all his benefits whatsoever he hath purchased for them but here we must first distinguish of these benefits of Christ whereof some are meerly spirituall inward and flowing immediately from Christ unto them and therefore peculiar to true beleevers as justification sanctification adoption accesse to God in prayer c. some are outward and tending to the help and furtherance of our spirituall communion with Christ being outward and visible meanes thereof and therefore are also extended to hypocrites being visible beleevers as the Ministery of the Word Seals Church-discipline c. And these cannot be dispensed by Christ immediately nor ordinarily but by means of a visible Church 2. We distinguish of right to these outward benefits of Christ which is either remote called jus ad rem or near and immediate called jus in re right to the enjoyment and fruition of it Now in the first sense we grant all visible beleevers have a right to seals c. But the immediate fruition of them they must have mediante Ecclesiâ visibili now here lyes the true state of the question Whether the Lord Jesus have ordained an universall visible Church in which and unto which by the Officers thereof all these outward visible priviledges and means of Grace are to be dispensed and immediately enjoyed of the faithfull or whether not the remote right but the immediate fruition and administration of all these ordinances by the institution of Christ be given to particular visible Churches and surely to whom one of these is given all are given For there is the same nature reason and use of all Ministry of the Word Seals Discipline all are outward ordinances priviledges means of Grace belonging to the visible Church where Christ hath given one he hath given all But we must confesse however you call this A new Church way it is new to us to read so much of late of such a Catholick Church to which administration of Seals Censures c. belong We are yet of the opinion of Baynes Parker and Cartwright c. that have against Papists and Prelates maintained that in the new Testament there is no instituted Catholick Nationall or Provinciall Church but onely the Church of a particular Congregation both for the reasons alledged in our Answer as also for the impossibility thereof in the days of the New Testament when the Lord Jesus sent his Apostles into all the world
English Churches and we deny not the same in an orderly way as they also required Testimony of their piety if any did but present a child to baptisme in their Church Wee have often professed this and by your owne grant most of the approved Christians amongst us are not members of the English Churches having renounced their right of membership and Commuion with the Church they were of there Reply Thirdly This order was observed by them to prevent the impostures of some that pretended to the English they were joyned to the Strangers contra Answ This was not the onely reason of their order for his words are All strangers doe not joyne themselves to our Church yea there are those that avoiding all Churches c. which plainely sheweth they looked further then such according to our practise even their owne country men fled for religion as we are they yet received them not till by publike profession of faith and subjection to discipline they joyned themselves to some Congregationall Church Secondly this sheweth what disorder and abuse of ordinances will follow from such a liberty to admit such as are not joyned to some Church for by this meanes many will neglect all order and discipline if they may but have the seales Thirdly to put all out of question that their practise and judgement in effect was the same with ours in this point note the first question propounded by them Are these Infants which you offer the seed of this Church that they may lawfully be here baptized by our Ministery CHAP. XIII THus farre wee have answered to the Reply made to the considerations in our answer to the 3. and 4. positions Now whereas wee tooke notice of three objections against our first consideration and answered the same It pleaseth the learned authour to take up onely two of them and with much inlargement to urge the same as his reasons against the positions and to apply our answers thereunto by which meanes our answers to the objections briefly set downe may seeme not so apt and full here as they would appeare in their proper places and therefore it will bee needfull for us to inlarge our selves somewhat in answering some passages at least in the reasons as they are here propounded before we come to the Reply Reply Reason 1. That sacred order God hath set in his visible Church c. Answ These words with all that follow whatever they may seeme to carry with them are nothing but a bare denyall of the positions in variety of expressions Reply For first The baptisme of John was true baptisme c. but hee never demanded of those hee received whether they were entered into Church Covenant c. Answ This wee had in substance before and is answered with all the other instances in this first reason in our answer to the Reply to the first consideration and in other places and therefore in vaine here to repeat the same And wee have observed more then once your plaine confession that the Apostles constituted Churches by baptisme even such Churches as they set Elders in by the election of the people Reply The second reason in substance is this because from Christ and the constant practise of the Apostles we learne that such as are called of God received the holy Ghost beleeve in the Lord professe their faith in him with repentance and amendment of life have a right to baptisme and desiring it are wronged if they bee deprived thereof Answ We grant the whole but as it is supposed in due order they must receive it so wee desire no more for wee grant upon these common grounds such have jus ad rem but not jus in re and the immediate fruition of them Reply Thirdly By a lively faith a man hath internal Communion with Christ by profession of the intire faith joyned with conformity of life in righteousnes holinesse and fellowship of love hee is a member of the visible Congregation or flock of Christ though no set member of a free Independent society and baptisme is a seale of our admission into the flocke of Christ not ever more but by accident of our receiving into a particular Congregation Answ This reason stands upon such a sense of the Catholik Church as cannot be found and it was before confessed that the Catholick Church consisteth of all true particular Churches as the parts of it And therefore how can a man be visibly a member of the whole and belong to no part thereof Secondly We deny not but such have a right to be in the particular Church and so to baptisme and all ordinances but as by such profession they are not members of any particular Church so neither have they immediate right to the priviledges thereof without admittance into the same Fit matter such are for a particular visible Church that professe the intire faith c. But it doth not admit them actually thereunto and your owne expression secretly implyeth as much when you say baptisme is a seale of our admission into the Church or flocke of Christ If baptisme bee the seale of our admission then there is an admission thereunto before baptisme but who doth admit and where and when is any admitted to the Church but in particular Congregations Can any bee admitted into a Church that whole Church being ignorant thereof but a man may professe the intire faith and live accordingly amongst the Heathen where neither any Church nor member of it take knowledge thereof and therefore bare profession doth not admit men but make them fit to bee received and admitted into the visible Church Your fourth Reason wee have had twice before and answered the same Reply To our answer of the first objection from the Instances of the Centurion Lydia the Jailour and the Eâ—…nuch First If where the holy Ghost is given and received and faith professed according to Gods Ordinance there none may hinder from being baptized scil by such as have power to baptize them then either such are members of the Church or baptisme is not a priviledge of the Church then it is not essentiall to baptisme in the first institution that it should bee dispensed to none but members of a Congregationall assembly Answ It is freely granted First That baptisme is a priviledge of the Church Secondly that such as professe the faith and have received the Holy Ghost are members of the Church if by Church â—…ee meant the Church mysticall considered as visible though not alwayes political Thirdly that these may receive baptisme by such as have power to baptize them but immediately to baptize them none had power but by an extraordinary call of God so to doe as hath bin formerly shewed But it wil not hence follow that ordinary officers have such a power wanting such extraordinary call because the members of the Church Catholicke having right unto the seales yet the immediate fruition of them they must have by ordinary officers in a politicall body the onely