will grant him to be yours but of those Monkes and these I may say O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo How much doth your Parsons and other Monkes differ from Beda and those more ancient Friers or Monkes or religious Orders call them as you please Fisher The like may be said of divers others but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke or without having at hand or looking into his bookes and that he might as well have named the Pope and Cardinalls and Bishops Priests Monkes and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers Rogers And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes Cardinalls Bishops c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall and proper points or articles of faith or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve or things therein revealed from God Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong and will take away your personall exceptions Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God found amongst Heathen Idolls Thus the Fathers Augustine and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets and writers of the old Testament Iudaei inimici nostri sunt de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius The Iewes are our enemies out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries Augustine upon the 40th Psalme and often in other places Master Fisher or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying what meanest thou Augustine wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians if not why citest thou their bookes nay what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things must be our friends in all All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists all their explicite all their implicite faith all that belongs to our faith vel per se vel per accidens essentially or accidentally primarie or secundarily as an Article of faith or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture and yet the Protestants are no Papists the Papists are no Protestants because the Papists have a new Creed which Protestants deny and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it because I assure me it is false in all and in some things blasphemous The Papists have such exercise of Religion worshipping of Images praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops Kings Lawes oathes as is full of pride sedition usurpation and impiety Now here we differ here I am in the negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative It is a just law and your owne Master Fisher for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow maintaine beleeve any such Creed any such practise of Religion any such discipline But for my faith either explicite or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew no Christian Iuvenalis yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori Yet to this bad man this unconverted Iew Paul saith O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets I know thou beleevest them And may not I say Master Fisher beleeve you the Apostles Creed I know you doe beleeve it I have no other Articles of faith no other primarie propositions of faith againe for the totall object for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture may not I aske you and say Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses the Psalmes the Prophets and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon as also all the new Testament I know you doe Master Fisher why then herein is my faith limitted whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines or truths convincing my understanding but they are no part of my faith After these all doctrines and lawes Ecclesiasticall or civill in the Church or State wherein I live not contradicting the word of God or my conscience I receive with humility May I aske you Master Fisher againe whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages nay were not professed and beleeved of the Popes and Cardinalls of all ages I know you will not deny but they were so professed why then may not I vouch these Popes and Cardinalls for my selfe as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue CHAP. VII Fisher ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way as hee saith hee maketh a stop there and doth not with the like audacity goe on in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages Rogers Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name and defend Professors of Roman religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours I have gone halfe my journey you not a step in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall whereas I have and hold other and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church yet to satisfie others to stop your mouth and to meet you at your owne weapon I undertooke this as a probable forreine humane uncertaine Argument yet such as maketh more for us then for you Fisher Namely such as Gualterus in Latine and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English have set downe for members in the Roman Church Rogers If they have done it sufficiently and effectually it had beene the lesse labour for you Mr. Fisher to have transcribed them but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them nor make one of your owne after your example I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis or The mysterie of Babylon vvritten by Sir Phillip Morney the learned Lord of Plessis who have performed this for the reformed Churches farre better then yours have done for your Church Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue I will make it out but let mee aske you vvhy instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent now you put members of the Romane Church as if it were the same a member of the
cast a dart or shoot an Arrow This is Pugna levis bellumque fugax turmaeque vagantes Lucan de Parthis Et melior cessisse loco quam pellere miles Illica tela dolis nec Martem comminus unquam Ausa pati virtus sed longe tendere nervos Et quò ferre velint permittere vulnera ventis Light armed men who flying fight and never firmly stand Better in skipping up and downe then fighting hand to hand Their poisned darts they send and shoot but will not closely fight Wounds which they dare not bring themselves they send by winged flight Had the Argument been so easily answered you would not have answered it by a manifest untruth as you have done by saying That the Protestants Faith is not contained in Scriptures whereas it is one of the greatest Controversies betweene you and us whether the Scriptures be the onely rule of Faith which wee affirme and you denie it is the sixth Article in the Doctrine of our Church of England the Title is thus Of the sufficiencie of holy Scripture for salvation The Article it selfe is this Holy Scripture containeth all things necessarie for salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of the Faith or to be thought requisite and necessarie to salvation c. To this Article of ours agreeth the Helvetian Bohemian French Belgian Saxonian Suevian confessions Reade the Bookes of Luther Brentius Melancthon Chemnitius Calvin Zanchie Whittaker and you shall find that they all doe professe this and write at large in defence thereof We proclaime it in our Pulpits we maintaine it in our Schooles wee will shed our blood rather then admit any Articles of Faith which are not contained in the Scriptures Is it not strange you should have the face to denie that wee professe that which is printed in the Doctrine of our Church preached in our Pulpits every day maintained in our Schooles defended by all proclaimed to the world What doth Chemnitius maintaine in the first part of his Examen Concilii Tridentini but this This the first Controversie which hee there handleth against you What doth Calvin labour in his first Booke of Institutions cap. 6 7 8 9. in his third Booke and second Chapter where hee speaketh of the nature of Faith but this And it is not a little that he writeth to this purpose in his fourth Booke and tenth Chapter Hath not Zanchie written a whole Booke to this purpose Against whom doth Bellarmine write his third and fourth Booke de verbo Dei which tend onely to this purpose to denie the fulnesse of Scripture and to extend matters of Faith to unwritten Traditions but against the Protestants There hee putteth Luther and Brentius in the forefront of his Adversaries Doth not Valenza in his third Tome upon Thomas disputatione 1a. quaest 3ª 4ª 5ª 6ª 7ª octava maintaine the same Tenet against the same men This is the maine Question betweene your Jesuited Schoolmen and us when they write de objecto fidei what those things are which are to be believed with a religious assent of divine Faith Whether onely those things which are contained in Scriptures as the Protestants doe professe or also unwritten Traditions as the Church of Rome doth professe let us then view the Argument and see how you answer it 1. Arg. First a Causis thus The Faith contained in the Scriptures hath had visible Professors in all Ages But the Protestant Faith is contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Protestant Faith had visible Professors in all Ages M. Fisher denieth the Minor or second Proposition which I have proved in the last Page before out of the publike Doctrine of our Church and chiefest Writers of our side and theirs neither can hee be ignorant of the same but the Argument troubles him and something hee must say Neither is hee ignorant that in this Controversie of the visible Church betweene them and us It is not the inward habit but the outward profession of Faith which maketh a visible Church Ecclesia constat professione ejusdē fidei Bellarm. Tom 2. l. 3. c. 2 3 4. etc. cōmunicatione eorundem Sacramentorum The Church doth consist in professing the same Faith and cōmunicating the same Sacraments Cap. 9. And againe the same Author cap. 10. writeth thus I answer Formam Ecclesiae non esse fidem internam nisi Ecclesiam invisibilem habere velimus sed externam id est fidei confessionem c. The forme or essence of the Church is not the inward Faith but the outward profession of Faith L. 19 c. 11. which Saint Augustine declareth most plainly against Faustus the Manichee and experience doth testifie the same for they are admitted into the Church who professe the Faith Thus farre Bellarmine So then by Faith in this Argument of the visible Church is alwayes understood the outward profession of Faith whereas the Protestants doe professe that they believe nothing but what is contained in the Scriptures this Respondent hath the face to say wee doe not professe it If but one man should come into the face of a congregation and say I doe professe and believe onely those things which are contained in Scriptures were not hee very impudent and had a face harder then brasse who would say to this man Thou dost not professe that Faith which is contained in Scriptures That Argument is not easily answered which driveth the Respondent to such miserable shifts Wee professe no Articles of Faith but those which are contained in the Apostles Creed which of these Articles are not contained in Scriptures Ad Partes Master Fisher this is the law of answering to a Proposition that hath many members wee professe that with a religious divine Faith wee receive nothing but what is contained in the five books of Moses or Ioshua Iudges Ruth the two books of Samuel the two books of Kings the two books of Chronicles the two books of Esdras Esther the booke of Iob or the Psalmes or Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or the Canticles or the foure greater or twelve lesser Prophets Or in the foure Evangelists or in the Acts of the Apostles or the Revelation and Epistles of Saint Iohn or the Epistles of Saint Paul Saint Iames Saint Peter Saint Iude which of these bookes is not Scripture Thus wee professe our Faith doe not wee every where professe with Saint Augustine De Doct. Christiana l. 2. c. 9. and against you That all things concerning Faith and life necessarily to be knowne and believed are plainly set downe in Scripture With Saint Basil Serm. de fidei confess Lib. cont Hermogen and against you That it is pride and infidelity to adde unto the Scriptures With Tertullian against you and Hermogenes Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina Si non Scriptum timeat vae illud c. Shew where it is written or else feare that woe
which is denounced against those who adde unto the Word of God And will you say that wee professe any Faith besides that which is contained in Scriptures This is your easie answering Master Fisher to denie that wee professe that which we doe professe in all our Bookes in all our Schooles in all our Pulpits in all our Discourses of this subject viz. What wee ought to believe You will as easily answer the other Argument let us see the Argument and your answer 2. Arg. A Signis thus The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent of Fathers and other Writers in all ages had visible Professors in all ages But the Faith of Protestants hath these testimonies Ergo The Faith of Protestants had visible Professors in all Ages To this you answer by denying the Minor or second Proposition thus The Protestant Faith hath not testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Ad partes Master Fisher which Article of the Apostles Creed doth want the testimonie of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent which of those Bookes received for Canonical of the Church of England and named of mee a little before want these testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Is it Genesis or Exodus or any other Booke of Moses Is it the Psalmes or Proverbs or Histories that want this testimony Or is it Esay or Ieremie or Ezekiel or Daniel or any other of the Prophets Is it Matthew or any other of the Evangelists or Apostles name the man name the Church name the time if you cannot then say your easie answering is no answer 3. Arg. Ab Exemplis thus Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages Christ and his Apostles St. Iohn Ignatius Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Clemens Alex Origen Cyprian Lactantius Athanasius Cyrill Hierosol Ambrozius Nyssenus Hieronimus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Augustinus Cyrillus Alex Theodoretus Socrates Sozomenus Fulgentius Evagrius Gregorius primus Beda Damascenus Alcuinus Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox Ergo Now what answer doe you Master Fisher give to this Argument of mine not a word unlesse to denie the conclusion be to answer an Argument I hope you will not acknowledge your selfe to be so ignorant in Logicke you know the Rule Ex veris possit nil nisi vera sequi If my Premises be true my Argument in forme as you neither deny my Premises nor except against the forme of my Argument the conclusion must follow must be true for out of true Premises can follow no conclusion but what is true Arist De Sophist Elench c. 17 18 c. this is not easie answering but not answering Looke into Aristotle concerning the duty of a Respondent and the divers kinds of answering You not being able to answer this Argument say I must bring out some or other good Authors who doe clearly shew these before named to hold all or some principall points of Protestant Faith differing from the Catholicke Roman Faith I have proved what I undertooke and what is sufficient by such Arguments as you cannot answer you dare not examine but flye from them knowing their strength and your weaknesse But you will have me prove them by Authors is any humane authoritie of a private man better then reason And what Authors would you have will not their owne profession and their owne workes together with the esteeme and reputation of Orthodox Writers which they have had in all Ages serve the turne to shew what their Faith was doe any men know what they did believe or what they did professe better then themselves As for your Roman Catholicke Faith I have alreadie shewed how fond how vaine how simple a conjunction you make of them that no child ordinarily of seven yeares of age understanding the termes but will wonder with what face you can say That a part of a Church is a whole Church that a part of a Kingdome is a whole Kingdome that a part of mans Body is the whole Body You say also that I must prove out of good Authors that they doe not condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles Here you not being able to answer as I thinke doe dissemble conceale and passe by what I did put downe in answer to this demand of yours viz. 1. It is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our Faith 2. The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell This you can conceale and passe over knowing that you are not able to performe it for your Councell of Trent I undertooke for matters of Faith not for secondarie Doctrines to produce Authors in all Ages professing our Faith though they might dissent from us in other Doctrines of an inferior nature not revealed in Scripture nor belonging to the foundation and Principles of Christian Religion As for the sufficiencie of my Arguments I have already made it good for any thing that you have yet spoken against them Let us now see what you say further against them CHAP. XVI Fisher WHo doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants by onely altering the word Protestant into Catholick in regard our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A most bold falshood even by the confession of divers learned Protestants themselves Rogers All the proofe that this man will bring is for ought I can see or thus Who doth not see I doe not see If it be granted c. as I have observed before for if these Arguments might be retorted against the Protestants by changing of one word why did hee not performe the same I must doe it for him Major The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages Minor But the Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures Conclusion Ergo The Catholicke Faith had visible Professors in all Ages Here I have onely changed the word Protestant into Catholicke and what one word is here against Protestants who doe hold and professe no other Faith then what is contained in Scriptures as I have already shewed out of our sixt Article wee grant this whole Argument Major Minor and Conclusion which if you doe grant I will take the Minor and inferre a dangerous Conclusion against the Church of Rome thus The Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures The Roman Faith is not contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Roman Faith is not the Catholicke Faith If you denie this Minor as it seemes by those words of yours before alleadged you will denie viz. Our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies
the testimony of Vniversalitie Antiquitie and Consent or was not beleeved and professed by those Fathers by me alledged Secondly you have not answered to those instances of Roman faith though I required it but for three ages nor to the Arguments which I made against you though this were a rule of your owne to shew names in all ages and denied by me to be a necessary consequence of faith onely this you say first that my grounds are slight and may fit all sorts of Hereticks and you instance in the Anabaptists Secondly you say my grounds are false to both which I will reply wheÌ„ I have made out my Catalogue for the other succeeding ages before Luther CHAP. XVII THough my faith relie not upon this Catalogue of names or humane authority as I have formerly often professed yet to provoke and draw on the Romanists to make good what they have undertaken viz to bring a Catalogue of such good Authors as they require froÌ„ us who did in al ages professe the now Roman faith contained in the Creed of Pius Quartus dated at Rome in the year 1564. Which I assure my selfe they cannot doe and I doe verily perswade my selfe never meane to attempt onely because they would say some thing they will lay a false ground and require their Adversaries to build upon those Sands which when we have done they will never proceed to doe as much for their faith but cavill at others and never speake any thing in defence of their owne faith being assured in their consciences that it is impossible they should be able to performe it First for the novelty of those points of faith acknowledged by some of themselves Secondly for the want of learning and good Authours in many of the succeeding ages For to speake a little of the first what Authors can they finde for their halfe Communion in the first ages seeing it is confessed by most of them that ever I heard or read that the contrary was practised for a thousand yeeres after Christ This much was acknowledged by one who as I have been since informed was a Iesuite in the presence and hearing of Sir Sa. A. of his Lady Master Westph and others And your most industrious quoter Master Briereley can finde no Author for it before the Councell of Constance which was 1400 yeeres after the comming of Christ in the flesh unlesse he relie upon the Haereticks the Maniches What Authors will they finde in the first ages for worshipping of Images for Purgatory for Invocation of Saints for Indulgences c as I have before mentioned If they be able to descend but three ages from Christ and produce good Authors which did beleeve these and make them matters of faith as the Church of Rome now doth I will be of their Church I will leave the Church of England nay I will leave which I will not doe for a thousand Empires my hope of heaven This offer of theirs I know to be so vaine false impudent and impossible Secondly It is very hard for him that hath no other meanes to prove his Church and his faith then by a Catalogue of names drawne out of Histories or other good Authors to have any certainty of his Church or faith because of the ignorance of many ages and want of good Authors Baronius who spent all his life in this search Tom. 2. â—n 1. and in describing the state and condition of the Church in all ages complaineth of this difficultie saying that it is most hard to be knowne and like the way of a ship in the midst of the Sea and the way of a Serpent upon a Rocke This is his complaint in the beginning of his second Tome yet hath he more cause to complaine of this difficulty in those succeeding ages whereof I am now to give a Catalogue Canus l. 11. c. 6. which times the learned Causabon doth doubt whether he shall call them times of ignorance or times of wonder S. Tho. Moor in ep ante Dial. Luciani In Chrond the most Historians of those times being but Legendaries of Fables as is confessed by many of your owne side Bellarmine saith of the ninth age Vide seculum infoelix in quo nulli scriptores illustres nulla Concilia Pontifices parum solliciti de Rep. Behold an unfortunate age in which there were no famous Writers no Councels and the Popes tooke little care of the common good An age saith Baronius usually stiled an abscure a leaden and an iron age as barren of good as if it had been iron so loaded with evill as if it had beene with a burthen of lead and obscure for want of Writers saying also The weake conscience is to be admonished that he be not troubled if he see the abomination of desolation sitting in the Temple In this age there rose such a mighty flood of wickednesse as that the ship of Peter might have seemed to have been overwhelmed with the waves and forsaken almost of any Governour n. 2. Certainely the Church never seemed to be in greater hazard or more manifest danger of utter ruine then in that age for the persecutions of Heathens of Haereticks of Shismaticks were but childish sports in comparison of what the Church suffered in this age n. 3. An. 900. n. 1. Stephen was an invader of the Apostolicke See was driven out cast into prison and there strangled b An 908. n. 1. Christopher was violently deposed bound cast into prison and constrained to become a Monke After him Sergius mounteth into the Chaire being powerfull in the forces of the Marquesse of Tuscanie * Vitiorum omnium servus facinorosissimus omnium quem constat post malum ingressum deterioremque progressum pessimum demum esse consecutum egressum This was a man that was the slave of all vices the most wicked of all men bad was his entrance worse was his proceeding but worst of all was his end all men cry him down for no lawfull Pope but for an Intruder numb 2. Divers of these usurping Popes were to be termed not Apostolicall but Apostaticall n. 4. c Theodora Scortum impudens Romanae civitatis Monarchiam obtinebat quae duas habuit natas Maroziam atque Theodoram sibi non solum aequales verumetiam Veneris exortivo promptiores Harum una Marozia ex Papa Sergio Ioannem qui post Ioannis Ravennatis obitum Sanctae Romanae ecclesiae obtinuit dignitatem nesario genuit adulterio Lutprandus lib. 2. cap. 13. An. 912. n. 7. Theodora an impudent Whore did rule all the rost in Rome she had two daughters Marozia Theodora two verier Whores then her selfe The first of these had by Pope Sergius a sonne called Iohn who was afterwards Pope of Rome She and her daughters were so powerfull by their bawdery and whoredome that they placed Popes and displaced them at their pleasure numb 6. Who considering these things would not thinke that God had forgotten his Church n. 7. So great were the
grounds you say truly that they are your grounds they manifest of themselves being your fourth and fifth Propositions Fisher I find first that he granteth the first three without any exception which I desire may be diligently noted and well pondered Rogers How I admitted them appeareth by my answer I delivered them more briefly and more perspicuously then you did thus and in this sense The three first Propositions I admit 1. That there is one faith 2. The ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called 3. That there have beene and must be in all ages Pastors so lawfully called This I conceived to be the meaning of your three first Propositions without any diminution neither doe you except against it as for your parenthesis viz. as appeareth by Histories that is no part of the Proposition for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is one Proposition which declareth one thing or whose parts are joyned together and made one by conjunction this your parenthesis is no part of the Proposition nor made one with it by conjunction Fisher For out of these three grounds to wit first that there is one and but one faith necessary to salvation Secondly c. Evidently followeth that which is Masters Fishers fourth Proposition to wit If Protestant faith be the true faith and their Church the true Church or as Master Rogers had rather say A true Church of Christ then their Protestant faith differing from the Roman faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfully sent visible Protestant Pastors whose names may be found in Histories as names of others are found who did teach the true faith of Christ in all ages Rogers If it doth evidently follow frame your Argument make your syllogisme inferre your conclusion I see not the evidence make it cleare unto me one short syllogisme would make me confesse that which you endeavour to prove in three pages but prove not at all onely you make one fallacie called petitio principij and falsifie my words more then once I will begin with your falsifications Fisher Neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant Rogers This is your first falsification that I make no bones to grant your fourth Proposition what I granted in your fourth Proposition was this First after the Rules of Art the practise of all learned men in all professions and the onely way to wave contention about words and come to reality finding an ambiguous phrase in that Proposition I thus wrote I would gladly know what they meane by those words if the Protestants bee the true visible Church whether so as if we alone who are called Protestants were of the Church and no others wee leave such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists wee challenge it not wee are a true Church not the true Church wee are a part not the whole wee include our selves wee exclude not others whether Graecians Armenians Aethiopians Spaniards or Italians c. so they deny no fundamentall part of the Faith either directly or by consequence What Reply have you made to this have you unfolded your meaning have you expounded this dark phrase have you as much as proved or disproved my distinction or told the Reader in which sense you took it are you such a friend to amphibologies doubtfull phrases and aequivocating termes that being requested to open your selfe you will not explaine your words your Propositions and grounds or Principles to inferre other conclusions Such obscure phrases of double signification can make no Argument but a fallacie which seemeth to be an Argument but is none They cannot be Propositions which will not admit of one ambiguous terme one ambiguous simple word The onely way to avoid this is by distinction This distinction I brought which you cannot deny The thing it selfe is so cleare that there is difference betweene a part and the whole betweene a part of a Citie and a whole Citie betweene a part of a Kingdome and a whole Kingdome betweene a part of the Church and the whole Church Hee that saith I am a Citizen of London being made free wrongs no man but hee that sayes I am the onely Citizen and there is no other speakes falsly and wrongs all other Citizens of that society He that sayes Middlesex is a part of the kingdom of England speakes truly and wrongs no man but hee that sayes Middlesex is the Kingdom of England as if there were no other Shiere nor Province belonging unto England speakes falsly and is no lesse then a Traitor to the King And hee that sayes the Protestants are a Church speaks truly and wrongs no man because hee excludes no other Christian Church but hee that sayes the Protestants are the Church as you say of the Romane excluding all others speakes falsly and wrongs all other Christian Churches of the world as the Donatists did which S. Augustin esteemed a Quid hac stultitia imò verò dementia reperitur insanius lib. 1. cont ep Parm. Credunt ex partibus terrarum periisse Abrahae semen quod est Christus De vestro ista dicitis quia qui loquitur mendacium de suo loquitur creditur eis de orbe terrarū quem possidere jam coperat periisse Christus et quia hoc credunt cum impudenter dicant Christiani sumus audent dicere nos soli sumus ibid. folly and madnesse they believe that Christ is lost in all other parts of the world This you spake of your selves because he that telleth a lye speaketh of himselfe You dare say with the Donatists We alone are the Church yet Christ did not say Rome is the field but the World is the field that seed of the Gospel was sowne through the World wee dare not therefore say as you doe We are the Church we are the onely Christians for this were a lye folly and madnesse as Saint Augustine termeth it And yet as if there were no difference you can passe this over with saying The true Church or a true Church as Master Rogers had rather say I had rather say so indeed because this is true the other which you say is false this is humilitie that is pride this is charitable that 's uncharitable as the devill this is injurious unto none that to thousands of thousands millions of millions shutting them out of Heaven who believe in Christ are baptized into Christ and suffer for Christ Secondly I observed many needlesse words in your Propositions writing thus I must desire the Authors not to affect obscuritie nor to alter their words which may alter their meaning as in the fourth and fifth Propositions they have with the multitude of needlesse words obscured the matter the fourth being briefly and plainly this If the Protestants be a true Church their Faith hath beene taught in all Ages by lawfull Pastors This I granted and no more this is your first falsification as if I granted that which I expresly deny I deny that wee are the Christian Church which your Propositions layes downe
I wrote thus As I did admonish Master Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I doe these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeveth what he denieth Secondly In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule They that are in the Affirmative must prove Now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three persons all the Creed So that we need not prove what our Adversaries do confesse But in those points in variance between us they are to prove because they are Affirmative we Negative as unwritten Traditions Latine Service Invocation of Saints c. Thus farre in my former Answer This is saying plainly this is not seeming Whereas you inferre that seeing all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes I grant the Consequence what is this to the question whether we are of the visible Church or no this which you would inferre doth rather prove us to be a part of the visible Church then any way gaine-say it Thus They which have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome are parts of the visible Church But the Protestants have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome Ergo The Protestants are a part of the visible Church The minor Master Fisher would inferre out of my Grounds as if I would deny it no I grant it and so I hope will he the major then the conclusion must follow We differ from you in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines and Discipline which you terme to be points of faith but we deny They are corruptions of faith Innovations Idolatrous Antichristian Doctrines You would force them upon us as points of faith we refuse them because the Scripture doth not expresse them the Primitve Church did not know them and the greatest part of the Christian Church to this day doth not approve them And your owne writers are distracted into many and divers opinions concerning them Paulus venet l. 1. 2 What Antiquity have you for your halfe Communion Worshipping of Images c. What Universality seeing the Church of Greece of Syria the Georgians Circassians Mengiellians Breitenbachius Purgr c. de Iacobitis Vitrivius Histor orientalis c. 76. the Moscovits and Russians the Christians of Babylon of Assyria Mesopotamia Parthia Media of Cassar Samarcham Charcham Chinchtalis Tanguth Suchir Ergimal Tenduck Caracam Mangi the Iacobits whose Sect is extended and spred abroad in some fourty Kingdomes which I assure my selfe is more large then all the Roman Church do communicate in both kindes worship not Images deny Purgatory and which with you is more then all the rest deny the Popes Supremacy So you have neither Antiquity nor Universality to which I might adde nor Consent among your selves in those additions of yours contained in your new Creed As for one Instance the Councell of Trent hath made the bookes of Machabees Canonicall Melitus Sav. Origenes Athanasius Hilarius Epiphanius Cyrillus Nazianzen Amphiloch Hieronymus Ruffinus which is left out of the Canon by ten Fathers that is I take it by all the Fathers that dyed within 400 yeares after the Incarnation and wrot of that subject Your Nicholaus Lyranus Dionysius Carthusianus Hugo and Thomas de Vio Cardinals whereof this last was one of the most learned that ever the Church of Rome had insomuch that in the Councel of Trent it was said I thinke no man heere doth thinke himselfe so great a Divine but that he might learne of Cajetan All these I say of your side exclude those Bookes from the Canon as we doe yet will you not say they were of another faith then the Church of Rome which you must say if your new Creed and Decrees of Councels be points of faith as you here say And lest you should escape with your wandring discourses and your flying from the question I will presse my argument in forme Whosoever denyeth the new Creed or any Articles thereof the Councell of Trent or any Doctrine thereof is an Hereticke and denyeth the faith But Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio Cajetan both Cardinals deny some Articles of the new Creed and some Doctrines of the Councell of Trent Ergo Lyra Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio are Hereticks and deny the faith I am sure you will hold this Conclusion to be false if so then one of the premisses must be false not the minor ergo the major which is your Tenet whereby you would proue us to be Hereticks and to deny the faith Fisher Out of which it will further follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles Rogers I grant it doth follow so that those same Articles which they deny be not those Articles which concerne the Unity of the Godhead the Trinitie of persons and all those things which are contained in the Creed I say therefore they differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or Discipline not in faith so they receive the Scriptures and Apostles Creed Fisher Which last consquence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the bookes of Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Rogers They may be excomunicated for gaine saying Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or the established Discipline of the Church they may be excommunicated as erroneous Shismaticks Fisher Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church Rogers Andrewes in his Defence of the Apologie for the other Bilson in his perpetuall government of the Church Carleton against the Appeal They must be imprisoned as Schismaticks Our Bishops doe all professe that there are no Puritane Doctrines that the difference is onely in matter of Discipline they count them neither Hereticks nor wholly excluded out of the Church here you have supposed two falshoods in two lines those learned Protestants from beyond the Seas whose Discipline doth somewhat vary from ours doe testifie that the purity of Doctrine doth flourish in England purely and sincerely So Beza from Geneva that by Queeene Elizabeths comming to the Crowne God againe had restored his Doctrine and true worship So Zanchius that the whole compasse of the world hath never seene any thing more to be wished then is her Government So Daneus Fisher And why not Roman Catholicks by as good or better right account Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks Excommunicated and no members of the Ancient and present Catholick Church Rogers If we did the one you may doe the other but I have shewed the falshood of your supposition that we count them Hereticks who discent from us in any of our Articles they may be erroneous in a lesser nature then Heresie turbulent in those errours they may be Schismaticks