A TREATISE OF THE LAWFVLNES OF HEARING OF THE Ministers in the church of England penned by that learned and Reverent deuine M r. Iohn Robinsz late Pastor to the English church of God in Leyden Printed according to the Copie that was found in his studie after his decase and now published for the common good TOGETHER WITH A LETTER written by the same Authore and approued by his church vvhich followeth after this Treatise IOHN 7. 24. Iudge not according to pearance but Iudge righteous Iudgment Printed Anno 1634. THE PRINTERS TO the Christian Reader CHristian Reader How euer the verie naming of the Author of this following Treatise vvere sufficient reason for vs to publish this same vnto the vvorld in regard of those large abilities aboue many others vvhich the Lord had bestowed vpon him and in regard he being now at rest with the Lord and so hauing finished long since his course in this his pilgrimage vve cannot expect to haue any more vse of his helpe this waye and although it were great pittie that such a vvorke as this should be concealed for so long time considering the worke vvas perfected and vvritted by his owne hand and so found after his death which is nine yeares since in his studie yet haue we thought it good all this while to conceale it in respect of that desire vve had to the peace of that church whereof the Author of this Treatise vvas for so many yeares a Pastor In regard vve did perceiue that some though not manie vvere contrariâ— minded to the Authors judgement expressed in this Trtatise And this vve judge to be a sufficient reason of our so long delaying of publishing this Treatise to the world Yet to our griefe vve haue now just cause to put this same on foote For as vvhen a citie is in danger of enemies to be surprized it is then high time to take vp all those vvarrlike Munitions vvhich happily before that time vvere cast aside and not regarded that so they may the better maintaine their citie and the priuiledges of it against their enemies so vve judge it as necessarie if not more vvhen vve see the enemies of Gods church to incroach vpon the priuiledges of the same especiallie vvhen they ayme at the vtter ruinating of it that then it is high time for vs to defende the cause of Christ and it vvas the vvisdome of Iehojada the High Priest perceiuing the malice of Athalia seeking to destroy the vvhole seed of Iehosaphat to hide Ioash the right heyre of the Kingdome and vvhen he sawe a fit opportunitie then to reueale him and make him knowne so vve vvho haue obserued Athalias spirit in part to be in some vvho haue laboured to assume the power to themselues vvhich is proper to the church and so Diotrephes like vvould cast out vvhom they please and retayne vvhom they thought good and rather then they vvill be hindred in this their attempt they vvill labour to rent that church in pieces in vvhich they haue liued for manie yeares together and that vve may not seeme to accuse them of any thing vvithout just reason vve desire the Christian Reader and themselues to consider this that followes First their schisme or as they call it their leauing of the church doth arise vpon this occasion to wit that 2. which vvere members of the same church with them hauing vpon some occasion heard some of the Ministers in England preach and it coming to the knowledge of some of these vvho haue now made this rent the church they vvould presently haue these persons dealt vvithall as for sinne and if they did not repent after dealing they vvould haue the church to proceed to excomunicate them ipso facto vvhich the church not willing to consent vnto these men could not be satisfied but they vvould haue their owne vvilles done or els they vvould rent from the church vvhich proceeding of theirs if it vvere approued of and followed no church could long continue together in peace for vvhat these foure or fiue men haue done that may any other man doe so that if any man do conceiue any of his brethren to vvalke in any such sinne vvhich he judges doth deserue excomunication if the church will not thereto consent he may rent himselfe from the same Although the Author of this Treatise haue taught them otherwise to vvit that if the church see not that to be sinne vvhich I see to be a sinne I hauing informed the church thereof according to my place I haue disscharged my dutie and the sinnes lyes vpon the church if it be a sinne and not vpon me but it seemes these men do looke for that in the church on earth vvhich is onely to be found in heauen for themselues haue affirmed and that before diuers witnesses that there is no sinne small or great that is to borne vvithall and that the verie speaking of a vvord through fraylty about worldly businesses vpon the Sabbaoth day should haue as seuere a sentence as he that shall openly prophanely transgresse against the 4. Commandement the verie naming of with their opinion is sufficient to discouer their weaknes that we may yet further discouer these mens folly to the world more fully we will shew you how contrary they are to themselues in this their iudgment for as they say and do affirme that there is no sinne vvhich is to be borne withall in the church yet themselues or at least the chief of them do practise the contrarie as for example one in stead of manie may serue the turne The chiefe of Author of this trouble doth hold and so hath for manie yeares together to vvit that it is vnlawfull for the members of one church to haue communion with another church and yet not vvithstanding this his judgement he can beare vvith one vvho hath contrary to this his judgement practised and so professeth still to do vpon occasion and yet not vvithstanding his so practizing and so professing he is receiued among them and is their chiefe if not their onely Teacher which they haue So that vve may here easily perceiue that though this man doth vse Iehu's peace against the sinnes of others with whom he desires to be alienated yet he can beare vvith as great sinnes in others in his judgement vvith vvhom he desires to vvalke we could shew manie more reasons to proue his partialitie but then vve should exceed the bonds of an Epistle onely vve desire to giue the Reader to take notice of those two things First that this practize of hearing the Ministers of the church of England is not against any Article of faith vvhich is by this church professed vvhereof the Author of this Treatise vvas a Pastor it being no Act of Church Communion for if hearing simplie vvere an Act of Communion then euerie hâ—â—â—tique or Atheist or whatsoeuer he were that should come into the church of God should haue Communion vvith them vvhich if it vvere true as this
that mens outward callings true or false makes the vvord to be the vvord of God or not to be the vvord of God an assertion rather to be pitied then refuted being litle better then blasphemy that which they bring to make this assertion good to vvit that any man hauing an outward calling vvhich is vnlawfull makes the vvord of God vvhich he preacheth not to be the vvord of God and this say they to proue it it vvas true incense vvhich Nadab and Abihu tooke Lev. 10. 1. to offer vp to the Lord but because they tooke strang fire and not the fire vvhich vvas from the Altar as the Lord had appointed therefore the Lord sent a fire to destroy them so say they it is the true vvord of God which is preached in England but because they preach the same by an vnlawfull office therefore the Lord abhorres it A stranger collection I thinke can hardly by heard for here strang fire is opposed to an vnlawfull outward calling vvhich nothing can be more absurd for Nadab and Abihu had a true outvvard calling to offer they vvere the sonnes of Aaron saith the text therfore if any thing hence might be concluded in iust proportion it must be to the doctrine taught and not in the least to the calling so that vve may from thence gather thus much that if a Minister in regard of his outvvard calling true shall teach any thing that is not from the Lord they are to expect Gods iudgement for the same and more cannot hence be collected further let it be shewed that euer any prophet in the old or new Testament vvas euer termed a false prophet in respect of his outward calling but allwaies in respect of his doctrine vve can find that such as had true outvvard calling in the true church yet vvere false prophets in regard of their doctrine in many perticulers as Christ teaches concerning the Scribes and Pharises for their false expounding of the Law let them shew the like for outvvard callings Thus haue vve thought good hauing bene eare vvitnesses of these things here propounded to set downe our censure of them desyring the Lord to make this vvhole vvorke for the generall good now set forth take effect in those that loue the Trueth Fare you wel OF The lawfulnes of hearing the Ministers of the Church of England by Iohn Robinson AS they that affect alienation from others make their differences as great and the adverse opinion or practise as odious as they can thereby to further their desired victorie ouer them and to harden themselues and their side against them So on the contrarie they vvho desire peace and accord both interprete things in the best part that reasonnablie they can and seek hovv and vvhere they may finde any lavvfull dore of entry into accord agreement vvhat others Of vvhich latter number I professe my selfe by the grace of God both a companion and guide speciallie in regard of my christian countrimen to vvhom God hath tied me in so manie inviolable bonds accounting it a crosse that I am in any perticuler compelled to discent from them But a benefite and matter of reioiceng vvhen I can in any thing vvith good conscience vnite vvith them in matter if not in manner or vvhere it may be in both And this affection the Lord and my conscience are my vvitnesses I haue alvvaies norished in my breast euen vvhen I seemed furthest dravvne from them And so all that haue taken knovvledge of my course can testifie vvith mee and hovv I haue still opposed in others and repressed in mine ovvne to my povver all sovver zeale against and peremptorie rejection of such as vvhose holie graces chalenged better vse and respect from all christians And in testimonie of mine affection this vvay for the freeing of mine ovvne conscience and information of other mens I haue penned this discourse tending to proue the hearing of the vvord of God preached by the Ministers of the church of England able to open and applie the doctrines of faith by that church professed both lawfull and in cases necessarie for all of all sects or sorts of christians hauing opportunitie and occasion of so doing though sequestring themselues from all communion with the Hierachicall order there established Three sorts of opposites I make account to meet vvithall The first of them vvho truly desire and carefully endevour to haue their whole course both in religion and othervvise framed by the holy and right zeale of Gods Word either for their confirmation in the trueth or reformation vvherein through humane frailtie they step aside And vnto them especiallie I direct this my discourse begging at his hands vvho is the Father of lights Iem 1. 17 and from vvhom commeth downe euerie good and perfect gift for them as for my selfe that as he hath giuen vs to set our faces tovvards heauen and to seek him vvith the vvhole heart Psal. 119. 6. so he would not suffer vs to vvander from his commaundements to the right hand or to the left A second sort is of them vvhose tender and scrupulous conscience makes them fearefull and jealous of euerie thing vvhich hath in it the least appearāce or shevv of euil least comming too neare it they be defiled by it one vvay or other This their godly zeale and tender nes of heart is to be loued of all men and cherished by all good meanes Onely such are to be intreated for their ovvne good to take knowledge of a distinction most vsefull for their direction in things lawfull in their kinde and good in their right vse Of vvhich some are onely naturallie good in their kinde but not simply commaunded of God as to get and keep the riches and credit of the vvorld to enjoy outvvard peace or other bodly comfort Others are morallie good in their kinde and commaunded of God as to heare the vvord of God obey the Magistrate and the like Novv in things of the former sort it is verie requisite considering both their nature and ours that vve keep a jealous eye and strait hand ouer our selues and our waies For them they are not in their kinde enjoyned as the other neither do the scriptures any vvhere require of men to be rich or the like as they doe to hear Gods Word obey authoritie c. And for our selues we are proue and in danger to ouerstraint for the getting and enjoying of them as being naturallie pleasing good things So as if out of a godly jealousie ouer our hearts tovvards them vve keep not our selues from going too neer the side for the getting or keeping of them vve shall by one storme of temptation or other be blovvne in to the ditch of sin and destruction But now for the practise and performance of duties simplie morall and commaunded in their kinde as is the hearing of Gods Word speciallie by Gods people vve ought to strain to the vtmost and to go as neer the vvinde as may be seing
for the preuenting in some and remedying in others of that inordinate and broken course And first I demaund of such what is this course of hearing such ministers as vvhose stare of ministerie they approue not Is it any perticuler ordinance left by Christ and enjoyned all christians in all ages and places Verily no. It vvere to be vvished that no church-ministerie vvere to be found vvhich is not approueable by the Word of God notwithstanding any good act performed by them that posses it This hearing is onely a vvork of naturall liberty in it selfe as I haue shewed and sanctified to beleeuers by their faith It is lawfull to vse it vpon occasion as it is to borrow of other men but to make it our course is to liue by borrovving vvhich no honest man that can do othervvise possibly vvould do Yea what differs it from a kinde of spirituall vagabondry in him that can mend it though vvith som difficulty to liue in no certain church-state and vnder no church-order and gouernment To print deep in our hearts the conscience of our duties this vvay let vs briefly consider how many bonds of necessity the Lord hath layd vpon vs to vvalk in the followshippe vnder the ordinances of the ministeriall and instituted-church First vve haue lying vpon vs the necessite of obedience to Christ our Lord in the commission Apostolicall enjoyning that after vve be made disciples as the vvord is Mat. 28. 19. 20. and baptised vve be vvithall taught to obserue vvhatsoeuer he hath commaunded It must not then suffice vs that vve are disciples and christians but we must joyn hearewith the entire obseruation of al the ordinances of Christ as vve can finde meanes from the greatest to the least And let vs beware that like the Scribes Pharisees Mat. 5. 19. 20. vve call none of Gods commaundements litle because vve vvould make our selues and others beleeue that litle and light account is to be made of obseruing them lest vve our selues bee called litle that is be indeed none in the kingdome of heauen Our sinnes of ignorance and humane frayly alas are to many let vs not adde therevnto presumptuous sinnes either of commission or omission to prouoke God vvithall 2. The church and ministrations therein are not needlesse but most needfull meanes sanctified of God and giuen of Christ for our saluation and edification therevnto Act 2. 47. vvhich he that despiseth that is Eph. 4. 11 doth not submit his soule and body vnto as he hath meanes and conuerse therein vvith good conscience though in affliction persecution despiseth not man but God and Christ to the depriuing of himselfe of the fruit of Gods most gracious presence in his house and temple 1. Tim. 3. 15. vvhere he hath promised to dwell and of Christs ascention into heauen for the powring out of all kingly gifts and largesses vpon men for the vvork of the ministery 2. Cor. 6. 16. 3. Our great infirmities vvhereof both the scriptures euery vvhere and our owne experience vvarn vs shew in vvhat great need vve stand of all the Lords holy ordinances and institutions for the supplying of vvhat is vvanting in vs and correcting of vvhat is a misse and continuing and encreasing of vvhat is good vnto the cōming of the Lord vvhere vve must also take knowledge and remember that it is on note of difference and the same very cleare betvveene the vvisedome of the fleshe and the vvisedome of the spirit that the former vvilbe sure to prouide for the body and outvvard man vvhat may bee though vvith danger and prejudize of the spirituall the other vvill take care and order for the spirituall state though the outvvard pinch for it And if any out of the view and persuation of his ovvne strength of grace come to conceaue that he stands in no such need of Christs ordinances or of any christian follovvshippe for the dispensing of them let such a man consider that the lesse need he hath of others by reason of his greater plenty of grace receaued the more need others haue of him for their supply But vvhatsoeuer any imagine of himselfe the Apostle vvho vvas not partiall teacheth that the very head the chiefe and highest member can not say to the feet the lovvest and meanest members I haue no need of you 1. Cor. 12. 21. 4. And lastly it is necessarie for our sound and entire comfort vvith the Lord our God that our obedience be entire in respect of all his holy commandements vvhich vve do or can discern to be such and to concerne vs according to that of the man of God Psa. 119 6 Then shal I not be ashamed vvhen I haue respect to all thy commaundements That so vve may haue our part in the testimonie giuen by the holy Ghost of Zachary and Elizabeth Luk. 1. 5. 6. vvhich vvas that they vvere righteous before God walking in all the commaundements ordinances of the Lord blamelesse That is both in the morall precepts and sacred ceremonies and institutions of the Lord Whose examples vve in our place and times are to followe not balking vvith the Lord in any thing great or small nor seeking starting holes vvhereby to escape from him in his word which is vvholy good and pure Good as comming from our good God Pro. 30. 5. Heb. 6. 5. good in it selfe and good for vs if vve conuerse therein as vve ought in good conscience tovvards God zeale for his ordinances modestie in our selues and charitie tovvards other men specially towards them vvith vvhom God hath joyned vs in the most and best things taking heed lest by any vncharitable either judgment of or vvithdrawing from their persons for such humane fraylties as vnto vvhich into one kinde or other all Adams sinfull prosterity are subject vve sinne not more by our course held against them then they by theirs in them vvhich God forbid To conclude For my selfe thus I beleeue with my heart before God and professe with my tongue and haue before the world that I haue one and the same faith hope spirit baptisin and Lord which I had in the church of England and none other that I esteem so many in that church of what state or order soeuer as are truly partakers of that faith as I account many thousand to be for my christian brethren and my selfe a fellow-member with them of that one misticall body of Christ scattered far and wide throughout the world that I haue alwaies in spirit and affection al christian fellowshippe and communion with them and am most ready in all outward actions exercises of Religione lawfull lawfully done to expresse the same withall that I am perswaded the hearing of the word of God there preached in the manner and vpon the grounds formerly mentioned both lawfull and vpon occasion necessary for me all true christians with drawing from that Hierarchical order of church gouernement and ministery and the appartenances
following Treatise proues the contrarie then it vvere good for euery church that will auoid communion with profane men to meete in priuate and then to shut their dore when their own compagnie is meet together else I cannot see how they can auoid hauing communion with wicked men to wit if beare hearing be an acte of communion Secondly as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith so likewise it was not in the iudgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall The letter you shall find after the Treatise this may appeare by a copy of a letter which we haue heer following published where the church in the counsell which they giue to the church of London do sufficiently make it appeare that their iudgement did manifestlie differ from those which now haue made this breach and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write enioyed the Pastor and their company was fiue tymes greater then it was when this breach was made because these men in his their error are vvilling to retraine it and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answere made in this Treatise to their obiections though the manuscript therof hath bene in their hands for many yeares yet because they will find somthing to say more then others haue done heretofore though of lesse force therefore they haue ioyned some new obiections which both the seducer and the seduced do thinke are vnanswerable therfore it will not be amisse for vs to propound them and to giue some answere to them that so if their stomachs serue they may reply to all at once First they obiect and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian and yet we go thither to worship the true God Before we answere directly to this objection we shall intreate the Reader and themselues to consider of this that followes First A church may be said to be false in diuers respects and according to those respects vve are to haue diuers Considerations thereof as first a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order to vvit vvhen a church is gathered together not according to the rule of Christ neither in their outward gouernement do they conforme therevnto now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected and gouerned contrary to the rule of Christ but is false and Antichristian and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church and the doctrines taught in this church may be sound and according to God Secondly a church may be false not onely in respect of outward order but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine Now to this latter vve counsell no man to go because from thence no good can be expected and that is the esteeme vve haue of the church of Rome But now as in a true church in respect of outward order there may be manie false doctrines taught so in a church that is false in respect of outward order there may be manie sound and seasonable truths taught and this esteeme vve haue of the preaching in England Namelie that the doctrine there taught according to the Articles of their faith is sound and the effects of it hath appeared in the vvorking of faith in the hearts of manie thousands For the outward order or meeting there as a church that concernes themselues and those that are in vnion vvith that church estate but not all that heare them Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrantable for vs to doe in England we proue it by this argument That preaching which ordinarily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ. Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard The first part of this sillogisme is proued out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary vvay God vses to beget men to the faith of Christ telles vs it comes by hearing of the vvord of God preached if faith comes by hearing the vvord of God preached to vvit if that be the outward meanes then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching and any man may blush for shame that shall deny this so that the major part of the argument is cleare And for the Minor parte they cannot deny it no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England it is a great question vvether they euer had faith or no yet because some are so grosse as to deny this we will therefore proue the contrarie by this Argument That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnall and so not capable of a church-estate to become saints so fit for a church-estate That preaching must needs beget men to the faith But the preaching and hearing in England made them that were vnfit carnall to become saints and so fit members to the true church which were not so before Therfore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith That the preaching and hearing in England hath done this Witnesse the church of Leyden and of Amstelredam Let them tell vs where they receiued their faith if they say they had it not till they ioyned in these bodies how could they then be true to their owne grounds that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church vvhereas none can be so esteemed except in the iudgement of charitie we iudge them to haue true faith But some of these that haue made this diuision haue not denyed but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England and yet which is wonderfull contradiction they say it is not the vvord of God as it is there preached so that it seemes there is something besides the vvord of God which is an ordinary meanes to beget men to the faith and there is another vvord besides Gods vvord that vvill do it the like absurditie hath sildome bene heard from any that professe them selues to be Christians and that they may not seeme to say this vvithout some reason marke the reason that they bring to proue it say they we do deny that to be the vvord of God as it is there preached by a false Ministry though the vvord it selfe be of God yet as it is by them preached it is none of Gods vvord so Gods vvord here stands at fast and loose it is Gods vvord and it is not Gods vvord as if they should say it is Gods word if M r. Canne shall preach it but if another that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of Gods vvord so
refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good for any vveaknes in them of one sort or other And this vve haue so plainlie and plentfullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs in which many errours euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest and the same oft times both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God and charitie tovvards men and effectuall desire of their ovvne edification The objections of the former sort follovv 1. OBIECTION There is danger of being seduced and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies ANSWERE 1. We must not loose the benefite of many main trueths taught Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours 2. Cor 11. 19. ◠Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters Let such read Parker of church policy lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards more greater errours taught then are in any or ail the churches of England of vvhich also there are not a fevv vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths as they keepe themselues carefully from errours might compare in this busines vvith any reformed church in Europe 3. This exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites speciallie by the vveaker sort and lesseable to discerne of things that differ But not against many ministers of the church of England 2. OBIECTION He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed pertakes in all the sinnes of that church as he that sweares by the Alter sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sanctifies Matth. 23. 19. 20. ANSWERE I partake not in the sinnes of any how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed or remain vnreformed by my fault Othervvise Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances liuing and dyeng a member therof If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne and I by just order make complaint thereof to the church I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him if he repent not but not to me except Popelike I vvould make my selfe the church I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth familie for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place vvhich if I do in the church as I can I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer vvanting povver to reforme them then to suffer it to blovv or rain because I hinder it not But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift vvhich before vvas not an offering actually but onely gold silver or other materiall So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne vvhich it vvas not before but onely suffers the sinne that vvas But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō to make them meet and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter yet this only follovves therevpon that as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring partakes vvith the offring so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill hath his part in the euill also And this I graunt vvillingly but deny as a most vain imagination that euerie one that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it 3. OBIECTION But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it ANSWERE 1. It vvill offend more and many of them vveakere and that more greeuously if it be not performed Secondly It is an offence taken and not giuen seeing the thing is in it selfe good in its kinde commaunded by God and in that perticuler by men in authoritie and directlie tending to mine edification and not like vnto eating of flesh or drinking of vvine or the like things of indifferent nature and left to my free libertie to vse or not to vse And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground they vpon the latter follovv There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England This hath been ansvvered but indeed sophisticallie and in passion Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said or vnsaid so he might gainsay his adversarie With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat but not pressing at all in the body of the discourse that consequence but proceeding vpō other grounds and in trueth consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique licence gouernment ministry and the like dravvne to another sence then either I intended them or then the matter in question vvill permit Whereas he that vvill refute another should religiously take hold to his aduersaries meaning and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne should spell it as it vvere out of his vvords But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them like the vvind on their backs But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines and simplicity as in the sight of God that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is to the christian readers eye vvhat in me lieth And for the treatice mentioned it must be obserued hovv both in the title and body of the booke the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church and the ministerie thereof vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts and exercises of that church so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination
vvith the said church For the better clearing of things let vs in a fevv vvords consider distinctly of religious actions according to the seuerall ranks in vvhich they may rightly orderly be sett Some such actions are religious onely as they are performed by religious persons And of this sort is hearing and so reading of Gods vvord The scriptures teach and all confesse that hearing of the vvord of God goes before faith For faith comes by hearing Rom. 10. 17 as by an outvvard meanes Hearing then being before faith 1. Tim. 1. 5 and faith before all other acts of religion invvard Rom. 10. 10 or outvvard Gal. 2. 20 it must needs follovve that hearing is not simply or of it selfe a vvork of religion and so not of religious communion Hearing is properly and of it selfe a naturall action though it be the hearing of the very vvord of God And I call it a naturall action in it selfe in a double respect First for that the light of nature teacheth euery man to heare and listen to another that can and vvill teach and inform him in any thing for his good diuine or humane Secondly for that a meer naturall man levv Turk Infidell or Idolator lavvfully may yea necessarily ought to hear Gods vvord that so of naturall he may become spirituall In the seacond rank I place preaching Psal. 50. 16. 17. prayer which are properly acts religious Pro. 15. 8. and spirituall as being to be performed the one by a gift Ioh. 9 31. the other by a grace of Gods spirit Of a third sort is the participation in the Sacraments vvhich ordinarily at least requires a member shippe in some perticuler and ministeriall church in the participant they being publique church ordinances In a fourth order I set the power of suffrage and voyce giâ—eing in electing of officers and censuring of offenders for vvhich there is requisite an interest of the person so voteing in that perticuler church as a member thereof Of the last sort is the ministration of Sacraments which requires vvith the rest fore mentioned a publique state of ministery in the person administring them Novv for preaching by some hearing by others vvhich tvvo alvvaies go together they may be and oft are performed vvithout any religious oâ— spâ—â—â—tuall communion at all passing betvveen the persons preaching or hearing When Paul preached to the superstitious Athenians shal vve conceaue he had spirituall communion vvith that heathenish assemblie Act. 17. 22. Hovv much lesse had they spirituall and religious communion vvith him vvho performed not so much as a religious vvorke in their hearing As God gaue any of them to beleeue they came into invisible or invvardly spirituall personall communion vvith him as they came to make personall manifestation and declaration of their faith they came into outvvard personall communion vvith him Lastly as they came to joyn in or vnto some perticuler church in to church communion vvith him els not So when there comes into the church assembly vnbeleuers 1. Cor 14. 23. heathens Turks Ievves Atheists excommunicates men of all religious men of none at all and there heare vvhat spirituall communion haue they vvith the church or state of the teacher or one vvith another either in regard of the nature of the act done or by Gods ordination and institution Hearing simply is not appointed of God to be a mark and note either of vnion in the same faith or order amongst all that heare or of differencing of christians from no christiaÌ„s or of members from no members of the church as the sacraments are notes of both in the participants The hearing of the vvord of God is not so inclosed by any hedge or ditch deuine or humane made about it but lies in common for all for the good if all The perticuler objections follow 1. OBIECTION No man may submit his conscience to be wrought vpon by an vnlawfull and Antichristian ministery neither hath God promised or doth afford any blessing vpon it neither can any haue the sanctified vse thereof ANSWERE It cannot be said properly that the office of ministerie vvorkes vpon the conscience of the hearer The office onely giues povver and charge to the teacher to teach in such or such a church state And as it resides in the person of the officer alone so the communion lavvfull or vnlavvfull vvhich any hath vvith it is in regard of the lavvfull or vnlavvfull ecclesiasticall relation and vnion foregoing betvveen the persons and not in any vvorking of the office vpon the conscience of any Secondlie though God blesse not the vnlavvfull office of ministerie vvhich is not of him selfe yet he may and doth blesse the truthes taught by the officer Genes 4â— 5. 6. vvhich are of himselfe and from heauen To deny this of many in the church of England is Balaam-like to curse vvhere God vvould haue vs blesse 2. OBIECTION To heare such a minister is to honour approue and vphold his office of ministery ANSWERE 1. If this be simply true then vvhen the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach or vvhen an vnbeleuer comes into the church assembly and hears the preacher he approues honours and vpholds the office of ministerie vvhich vvhat it meanes he is altogether ignorant If any reply But vve know the ministery of the church to be as it is I ansvvere that the knowing of it makes not our act the more or lesse an act of approbation If I do an act wherin I indeed approue of a thing if I know the thing I really approue of it vpon knowledge if I know it not I really approue if it but ignorantly 2. If I approue of the office simply because I heare the officer preach then I much more approue of all the doctrines vvhich hee deliuers because I heare him deliuer them If the latter seem vnreasonnable so is the former much more except I be in church communion vvith the officer and then indeed I really approue of his office as I also doe of his doctrine if it be according to the confessioÌ„ of faith made by mee for then I am in former vnion vvith him in the one or other and so haue communion in the acts therof If this vvere a good ground that euery one approues of the euil done in matter or manner where he is present none could liue with good conscience in any society of men vpon earth Persons so minded are best alone for vvith others they vvill keep no peace no nor vvith themselues neither if they be true to their ovvne ground But they plainly balke themselues in their courses either in vveaknes of judgement or partialitie of affection or through vvant of due consideration of their vvaies 3. OBIECTION By this then it seemes a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie and do as others do that practice idolatrie yet not approue of it And so the three Nobles in Daniell needed not to haue put themselues vpon such pikes
of daunger as they did for not falling downe as others did in the place ANSWERE 1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospell no Idolatrous act is performed as there vvas 2. It must be knowne that approbation is properly in the heart and only the manifestation of approbation in outvvard gesture speech or writing Both the one and other are euill if the thing be euill But heare it must be considered that I may in cases do the same outvvard act vvhich others do and vvherein they manifest their approbation of idolatrie or other euill and yet I be free in trueth and deed from all such approbation and stain thereof The levves after Christs death and the taking avvay 2. Col. 15. and abolishing of the legall ordinances thereby circumcised their infants and frequentled the temple for purification and other mosaicall ceremonies as parts of Gods vvorshippe and still remaining of deuine institution Paul also circumcised Timothy entred the Temple for purification and yet did not approue any manner of vvay of the errour and euill in the Ievvish worshippers To come nearer home It is the custome in Popish countries that all that passe by a crosse must in honour of it leaue it on the right hand as they may by reason of the placeing of it comming or going Now if I ride vvith others that vvay I may do the thing that they doe and keep companie vvith them yet not honour the crosse as they do It is besides the former the manner that such as so passe a crosse should in further honour put of their hatt to the said crosse But if I do this also I plainly manifest an approbation of the superstition The reason of the difference is because I haue another iust cause to do the former-thing namely to keep on vvith my company but haue no just cause of the latter But now suppose that at the very place vvhere the crosse stands I meet vvith some friend or other to vvhom I ovve that eiuill respect of vncouering my head I may then do that lavvfully also vpon the former ground So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of comming or standing by the Magistrate to vvhom I ovve this ciuill honour vvhilst he is performing some act of Idolatrie in the streetes or els vvhere I might vpon the same ground go or stand vncouered by him vvithout just blame To applie these things to the objectiō moued seing no other cause could reasonnable be conceaued of the Kings commaunding such a thing or of their doing the thing at his commaundement saue the vvorshipping of the Idoll they in so doing could not haue escaped the just blame of Idolatrie But now I haue just causes more then one of my hearing and amongst the rest mine edification and therefore cannot be chalenged therein to approue of the ministers flate or standing Besides that as I formerly answered heare is no Idolatrous act performed 4. OBIECTION He that hears them preach hears them as Ministers of the church of England and as sent by the bishops and so in hearing them hears and receaue them that send them according to that of our Sauiour Luk. 9. 16. he that hears you hears me Iohn 13. 10. and he that despiseth you despiseth me and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent mee ANSWERE I graunt the former part of the objection and account the denying of it a point of familisme seing the officers of publique states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed according to the publique lavves and orders of those states and not according to any vnder hand either course or intention by them selues or others They are heard as they preach and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending and of the parris hes receauing to vvhich they are sent by them And so I professe I heare them as the ministers of the Bb sending and of the Parishes sent to but not as my ministers either sending or sent to except I be of those parishes or at least in ecclesiasticall vnion vvith them Euery one vvhether of false a church or no church or excommunicated frō the church that hears me hears me as the Pastor of the church vvhich I serue but not as his Pastour I suppose nor in vvay of any his spirituall communion vvith mine office of Pastourshippe Secondly by hearing receauing there Christ meanes properly the hearking too beleuing and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles vvhich many despised vnto vvhom he apposeth the former that heard it Now the ministers in the parishes haue not the doctrines of the Gospell from the Bishops as they haue their office but from God in his vvord and so farre forth as a man hears that is hearkens too and receaues them by receauing it he so farre hearkes too receaues Christ. 5. OBIECTION Yet such as heare them haue communion which their office of ministery vvhat in them lyes ANSWERE That is they haue no communion at all vvith it if it lie not in them to haue any as it doth not If I hold vp my hand as high as I can I touch heauen vvith my finger vvhat in me lies Do I therefore at all touch it If such think to haue or that they haue any such communion it is their errour and ignorance but makes not the thing to be the more then if they thought not so 6. OBIECTION Is there then no communion at all betweene the teacher and taught vvhat profit the comes thereby such hearing ANSWERE The church officer feeds the flock and church ouer vvhich he is set Act. 20. 28 as the object of his ministery Such as come in being not in church-vnion therevvith heare him so doing And as a stander-by hearing me talke to or dispute vvith another though I speak not a vvord to him may reap as much and more fruit by my speche then he to vvhom I directed it so may and doth it often come to passe vvith him that hears the minister feed the flock vvhose minister he is though he be no part of it He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock or seing him minister baptisme to any member thereof Heare is communion only in the effects of the truthes taught It vvere vsurpation in any to pertake in a church priueledge vvhich the office of ministerie is that were not in a church-state first And so if hearing simply imported church-communion none but church-members might lavvfully heare 7. OBIECTION In the true church indeed is order that the church couenant go before church communion but not so in the false ANSWERE In the true church there may be vnlawfull church-communiō without a preceeding church-couenant as vvell as in the other to vvit if an act of communion properly passe betvveen the church and him that is no church-member as for example participation in the sacraments But hearing being not properly an act of communion cannot import communion necessarily vvith the one or other nor othervvise then according
to a foregoing church-vnion vvhereas to partake in the Lords supper imports communion in both lavvfull in him that is a lavvfull church-member and vnlavvfull in him that is not in such a church-state 8. OBIECTION But it is the order of the church of England that all that heare are and so are reputed members of that church ANSWERE I deny that there is any such order Let the lavv or cannon either be shevved that so orders things Excommunicates are permitted to heare sermons though not deuine seruice as they call it 2. What if there vvere such an order It no more either made or declared mee to be a member there then doth my dvvâ—lling in such or such a parishe make me a member of that parish-church vvhich latter is indeed the lavv and order there If the church vvith me should make a lavv cannon or order that all that come in heare me preach should thereby become members of it vve vvere the more foolish in making such an order but they neuer a vvhit the nearer either for membershippe or communion 9. OBIECTION He that hears appears to haue communion with the church ministry and all appearance of euill is to be avoided 1. Thess 5. 22. ANSWERE The scripture is not to be vnderstood of all that appears euill to others out of an erronius and deceaued judgement for then vve must abstain from almost all good seing there are some to vvhom almost all good seemes euill but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophesie of vvhich I haue some probable suspition of vvhich the Apostle seemes properly to speak or of that vvhich appears euill to a rightly discerning eye By this imagined exposition I might not hyre a house in a parishe vvhere I vvere not knovvne seeing thereby I appeare a parish-member 10. OBIECTION None can heare without a preacher nor preach except he be sent Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully heare him that hath not a lawfull sending ANSWERE 1. That conclusion is neither in text nor sound I may lavvfully hear him that hath no lavvfull calling as I haue formerly shevved 2. The Apostles meaning there is not to shevv vvhat is vnlavvfull but vvhat is impossible It is impossible to beleeue vvithout hearing and impossible to heare vvithout preaching and impossible to preach vvithout the sending there intended that is vvithout Gods gracious vvork of Prouidence in raising vp of men by enabling and disposeing them to preach for the effectuall calling of the elect of God of vvhich he there speaks If any make question vvhether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there it is more questionable whether they themselues vvant not faith vvhich are so barren of charitie in vvhich true faith is fruitfull If faith come by the preaching in England to any it follovves therevpon that such preachers are sent in the Apostles sence 11. OBIECTION The sheep of Christ heare his voice but strangers they will not heare Ioh. 10. 3. 8. 27. ANSWERE Christ doth not there speak of the outvvard hearing but of the hearking vnto that is as he expounds himselfe vers 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing and beleeuing of his voice following it So chap. 9. I told you before and ye did not hear that is not beleeue vers 27. And God hears not sinners vers 31. that is approues not of them and their prayers So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me alvvaies and a thousand times in the scriptures The drift of Christ in the place is without question to shew the difference betvveene such as vvere his sheep and such as vvere not his sheep His sheep heard his voice and they vvhich vvere not his sheep heard not his voice But they vvhich vvere not his sheep nor heard his voice as there he speaks heard him preach outvvardly as vvell as the rest vvhich vvere his sheep Besides they vvhich vvere his sheep and vvould not heare strangers in the Lords sence heard outvvardly those strangers preach and by hearing them discouered them to be strangers that is false prophets The strangers of vvhom he speaks vvere of the true church and of Israel but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule Such strangers none should heare that is beleeue and follovv 12. OBIECTION The scriptures both of the old and new testament vvarn Gods people of false Prophets vvhich the ministers of that church are haueing an vnlawfull calling ANSWERE 1. They vvarn Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken vnto them 1. Ioh. 4. 1 nor to beleeue them but to try them which without hearing them cannot be done Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all that they might try them for that vvere to tempt God but I novv ansvvere the scriptures cited vvhich speake of Prophets in the true church vvhich vvere to be heard till they vvere orderly repressed or at least plainly discouered by their doctrine heard to be such 2. No mans vnlawfull outvvard calling makes him a false Prophet nor his outvvard lavvfull calling a true but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true or false Prophet A man may haue a lavvfull office of ministerie and yet be a false prophet if he teach false doctrine so may he be a true prophet if he teach the trueth though in an vnlavvfull and Antichristian state of ministerie Numb 2â— and 25. Yea Balaam vvas both a false prophet in cursing in purpose vvhere God would haue him blesse Ios. 13. 22 in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16. Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel Rev. 2. 14. and yet a true prophet in blessing Israell by the spirit of prophecie Num. 25. 5. 9 10. c. and chap. 24. 2. 3. c. and vvord of the Lord put into his mouth He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past present or to come And to prophecie in our sence is nothing els but to speak to edification exhortation 1. Cor. 14. 3. and comfort He that doth this is a true Prophet He that speaks the countrary a false It vvere good if they in vvhose mouthes the chalenge of false prophets is rifest would better wey how themselues expound and applie the scriptures in their propheciengs lest notvvithstanding any outward lawfull church state they be deeper vvounded by the rebound of their accusations this vvay then their aduersaries 13. OBIECTION The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal or to Bethel Hos. 4. 15. 16. ANSWERE The meaning is plain and the vvords expresse that they vvere not to go thether to offend and play the harlot in ioyning to Idols vers 15. 16. 17. This I graunt is to be done in no place but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for The scriptures euery vvhere forbid the going or comming to such places or persons as in or by vvhich some euill is done to vvit for the doing of any thing euill or vnlawfull in or vvith
them 14. OBIECTION They that eat of the sacrifice partake of the Alter 1. Cor. 10. 18. so they that receaue the word from an vnlawfull Officer partake with his office ANSWERE I deny the consequence The office is not to the vvord as the Alter is to the sacrifice The Alter makes the thing to be offred actually to become a sacrifice vvhich it vvas not before saue only in destination as Christ plainly teacheth saying Math. 23. 19. The Alter sanctifieth the gift but so doth not the office make that to become the vvord of God vvhich vvas not so actually before This argument hath its speciall waight being applied to sacraments or proper institutions The church and ministerie vnder God make in a good sence the bread and vvine sacramentall in their vse vvhich before they vvere not And to the sacraments speciallie the supper of the Lord The Apostle in the place cited hath an eye shevving the proportion betvveene the eating of the sacrifices in Israell which in that vse became their sacraments the eating of the sacrifices of the Heathens which were their sacraments and the eating of the Lords supper as the sacrament of christians With these things joyn in the last place that sacrificies considered as proper institutions might not be offred or eaten Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. but in the place chosen and sanctified by the Lord for that purpose No more may sacraments now be eaten but in the church vvheras the vvord may be preached to any as vvell out of the church as in it 15. OBIECTION The places called Temples churchs hauing been built for Idolatry should de demolished and therfore are not to be frequented specially being accounted and made holy places Deut. 12. 3. ANSWERE Iohn 4. 21 23. 24. 1. The difference of places vnder the lavv 1. Tim. 2. 6 vvhen all other places for the most solemne vvorshippe as opposed to that one place as holy vvere vnholy is now taken away so as no place novv is holy or vnholy as then 2. Suppose it be the Magistrates dutie to destroy them of which I now dispute not nor howfarre he should proceed therein yet I deny the consequence and that I may not vse that lavvfully vvhich he ought to destroy The Magistrate ought to haue destroyed such cities in Israell Deut. 13. 12. 13. 14. 14. as vvhose inhabitants had been corrupted vvith Idolatry Yet might the cities if spared by the Magistrats lavvfully be dvvelt in aftervvards Synagogues in them both be built and frequented for Gods morall worshippe Iericho should haue been Iosh. 6. 17. 36. an execration and heap for euer 2. King 2. 3. 5. yet being built again and standing vvas the seat of a school of the Prophets The murtherer ought to be put to death yet if he be spared and surviue his wife children and seruants lavvfully may and in conscience ought to conuerse vvith him according to the naturall and ciuill relations betvveene them and him 3. I knovv no lavv in force nor doctrine receaued in the church of England that ascribes any holines to the places And for errours and abuses personall they rest in the persons so erring I suppose some such holines be ascribed vnto them as to holy churches holy buildings consecrated places c. Yet I see no sufficient reason vvhy I may not vse lavvfully a naturall and ciuill place in them for any lawfull vvork ciuil or religious priuate or publique for there is one reason of all these If any think those places like the Idolathites he mistaketh therein The things offred to Idols eaten in the Idols temple and feast vvere in proportion 1. Cor. 10. as the bread vvine being blessed in the Lords supper as both the Apostle and reason of the thing manifests Whereas the place vvhich I vse though for a religious action to be performed in it vvhether in the temple or in mine ovvne house hath onely the consideration of a naturall and ciuill circumstance The temple as a temple vvhich yet I do not think is done in England by any either receaued doctrine or lavv may be made an Idoll by consecration and yet euery perticuler place in it not made vnlavvfull for all vses If any further object that in preaching hearing Gods Word therin vve haue a religious vse of it they erre not considering that though the vvork done be religious yet the place is no more religious therefore then the time in which I do it Time and place are naturall circumstances and vvithout vvhich no finite action can be performed and some time and place more comodious fitt then others for the doing of things of all kindes I haue no more religious vse of the place in vvhich I hear publiquely thē in which I pray priuately in my house or chamber 16. OBIECTION Seing vvhatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne vvhat vvord of God and so of faith is therefor this practice ANSWERE Euery scripture that either commands Mat. 7. 24. the hearing of Gods vvord Luk. 11. 28. promiseth a blessing to them that 1. Pet. 2. 5. hear and keep it Tit. 3. 1. or that commands me to edifie and built to my selfe Heb. 12. 14. or to obey the Magistrate or to followe after peace or to preuent offences 1. Cor. 10. 32. vvarrants and in cases enjoyns this practice supposing no sinne to be in the vvay of vvhich in ansvvering the former objections to vvhich I suppose all other of vvait or couller may be referred I hope I haue cleared it And for any vnsatisfied or other vvise minded I vvishe I knew their reasons either for their good by a sufficient answere to be giuen vnto them or for mine owne by admitting of them as there may appeare vvait in them In the meane vvhile let me intreat of the differentlie minded one vvay or other that they vvould exercise mutually that true christian charitie one tovvard another and compassion one of anothers infirmities which becoms all that vvill be in trueth and deed follovvers of Christ Iesus vvhich is most needfull speciallie in things of this kinde for the preseruing of the vnitie of the spirit in the bond of peace Which bond of peace whilest men are not carefull to keep inviolated by brotherly for bearance in matters of this nature they miserablie dissipate and scatter themselues and one another euen as the eares in a sheffe are scattered vvhen the bond breaketh But as few or no good things of any kinde are so vvell vsed by some but others as much abuse them so is it to be feared that there vvill not vvant vvho vvill change their lawfull libertie this vvay into lavvlesse licentiousnes and so take vp in steed of all other religious exercises a hearing course onely And those specially of them who disliking the present churchstate in England yet vvant due zeale and loue to that vvhich themselues approue Let me a litle turn my speach to such
thereof and vniting in the order and ordinances instituted by Christ the onely King and Lord of his Church and by all his disciples to be obserued and lastly that I cannot communicate with or submit vnto the said Church-order and ordinances there established either in state or act without being condemned of mine owne heart and therein prouoking God who is greater then my heart to condemne me much more And for my failings which may easily be too many one way or other of ignorance hearin and so for all my other sinnes I most humbly craue pardon first and most at the hands of God And so of all men whom therein I offend or haue offended any manner of way euen as they desire and look that God should pardon their offences FINIS HEER FOLLOWETH A true Copie of a Letter sent to London written by the Author of the former Treatise and read in publique and by the whole consent of the Church was sent to London in answere to a letter sent by the Church of London to the Church of Amstelredam and Leyden Which we haue thought good to Printe onely to let the World see what the Churchs opinion was of hearing in England the contents wherof followeth TO OVR BELOVE IN THE Lord the Church of Christ in London Grace and Peace from God the giuer thereof and in him our louing salutations IT may seeme strange vnto you brethren and that not vvithout cause that vve should haue deferred thus long our answere vnto your letter and as vnseasonable that after so long delay vve should now frame an answere Our defence in the former case is partly the other churchs keeping the same so long in their hands before they sent it vnto vs and partly their contentions arising about it of vvhich vve both desired to see some issue and hoped vvithall that by occasion thereof vve might come to communicate our counseills together as vve conceiue by your joint letter your desire to haue been But both in vain For the letter then partly fearing lest vve should seeme to neglect you and partly hoping that some vse might be made thereof for after times and occasions we thought it better late them neuer to addresse this our answere yet so as you are in the first place to be intreated by the Pastor of the church heare to take knowledge that he vvas not verie vvilling to read publiquelie that your letter for two reasons The one a loathnes that either strangers or brethren should take knowledge of that in ordinate and lawlesse course held by such there as both in regard of their yeares and learning and especiallie of their place in the church should haue being an example to the rest in vvisedome sobrietie and Christian forbearance speciallie in a case threating diuision and dissipation following therein Christ our great high Priest who being touched with the feeling of our infirmities can haue compassion of the ignorant Heb. 4. and 5. The true naturall mother vvould not consent to haue the liuing childe derided but the counterfeit vvas easily mooued therevnto how earnest soeuer she seemed to haue it accounted hers Secondlie For that he conceaues it not orderly that the bodies of churchs should be sent to for counseil but some choise persons Power and vnauthoritie is in the body for elections censures but counseil for direction in all affaires in some few In vvhich regard euerie perticuler church is appointed its Elderships for ordinarie counseillers to direct it and the members thereof in all difficulties vvith vvhom others are also to aduise vpon occasion speciallie ordinarie The Priests lips should preserue knowledge they should seek the Law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts Mal 2. These things premised our generall answere to the questions propounded by you followeth You demaind 1. Whether you haue done well in reâ—eining her to vvit the maid about vvhom the difference vvas she leauing practise according to her promise Answere We iudge that therein you did vvell yea though she had continued her practise vpon occasion and without neglect of the church wherof she vvas a member how much more leauing it as she did Considering the action it selfe the hearing of the word of God the great prouocations she had therevnto the state of the other church about vvhich your next question is moued and vvith all these that excommunication is the heauiest censure vvhich the church can inflict for the most heynous offence most obstinatly stood in we deem it against that brotherlie forbearance vvhich the stronger owes to the vveaker so seuerelie to censure a failing so supposed of that kinde To their assertion that she vvas an Idolator hauing broken the 2. Commandement for that Mr. Iakobs people vvere iudged Idolators in their going to the assemblies and therefore from 1. Cor. 5. If any called a brother be an Idolator c. We answere that heare are diuers consequences collections made vvithout rule of charitie or ground of trueth To graunt as the trueth is that manie things in the assemblies are against the second Commaundements vvhich forbids nothing but Idolatry expresly and by consequence vvhatsoeuer tends therevnto and vvithall that Mr. Iakobs people did partake vvith diuerse of these euills yet wee deny it to agree either vvith christianitie or ciuillitie in common course of speech to calenge euerie such practise as the committing of of Idolatrie or such person as Idolators The Lord Iesus teacheth Math. 5. 21. 22. that all vnaduised anger is against the sixth commaundement Thou shalt do no murder Is therefore euerie man that manifests vpon occasion any the least vnaduised anger to be chalenged as a committer of murther or murthererâ— so by proportion euerie lesse modest word gesture or fashion of apparrell is against the seuenth commandemsnt Thou shalt not commit adulterie Euerie vvronging of another by negligence vnprouidence or partiall affections vvhich euerie one lesse or more beares to him selfe though but in a half penny against the eight commaundement Thou shalt not steale are all therefore so doing to be pronouncied and prosecuted as theefes and adulterers {reversed} By these vain collections and bold chalenges searse any so good and godly but might be branded as Idolators â—heefes murderers adulterers and vvhat not For whoe can vnderstand his errours and secret faults {reversed} vvords are vnto things as cloathes vnto the body And as it were a vain course to put vpon a childe a mans coat though neuer so costly to make him seeme a man so is not onely vain but also injurious to put vpon the things vvhich vve dislike odious phrases though taken out of the verie seriptures to make them seeme vvorse then in trueth then are Indeed he that is vnder the Law iudgement therof doing the least euill against the 1. or 2. commandement is an Idolator and against the 6. 4 murtherer and so for the rest in regard of God and the rigour of justice whom yet for men so to call
and prosecute vvere rashe and rude at the least But now if the person can in respect of other good things by the vvord of God vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell to censure such a one as an idolator theefe murderer and the like is against both charitie and godlines The Apostle 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge and speak otherwise vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians as by occasion of friends corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts and tables of deuils of vvhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished 1. Cor. 8. 10. Righteousnes light Christ beleeuers and the Temple of God opposed to vnbeleeuers vnrighteousnes c. As it is one thing to haue sinne which if we say we haue not we deceaue our selues the trueth is not in vs and another thing to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance or infirmitie some acts lesse discernable of Idolatrie are not Idolators but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition Lastlie If all in the church of England and of Mr. Iakobs church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemnation of the law vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed as rash and vnjust Secondlie Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation be a true church or no We haue so judged and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam and the body of the church with them as we conceaue and so do vve judge still hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled Thirdly Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued and retained in our churches by that couenant which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church or whether they haue renounced it as false and made an other {reversed} Answere Their receauing heare was only by that couenant made with God and the church there continued and none otherwise the persons hauing testimonie and dismission from the church there and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut by vs commended and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam Fourthly To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher other brethren renouncing communion with you it is both vnseasonable now to answere and difficult for vs who are ignorant of such circumstances and maners of cariage by them as by which offences are much agreeuated or extennated Fifthly Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing {reversed}â—Š Answere Neither the pretence of hauing nor the hauing of the truth indeed makes the church in the sence in hand no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue by some makes them the church excluding them that want its As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible and ministeriall church is the whole body euery member thereof Not some parts Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more comelines and some lesse The church is a state spirituall and politicall not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof And if the greater number be members still though inerrour the smaller cannot be the body Besides if some particuler sinne or errour make the greatest part not to be members then much more two or three perticulers Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne to vvit if they vvere not members Lastly this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground that the church cannot erre Sixtly Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs Answere The Apostle teacheth plainlie the contrarie 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of propheâ—ing and teaching yet layes he downe a more generall rule forbidding all such speaking as in vvhich authoritie is vsed that is vsurped ouer the man which is done speciallie in iudgements And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction hov much lesse may she giue a voyce or vtter a reproofe for censure And this answere vve return at the length brethren to your letter and demands therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare we rest Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz and church with him Leyden 5. April 1624. FINIS